April 7, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast, we are thrilled to welcome Peggy Hogan, an esteemed positive reinforcement trainer known for her groundbreaking work with horses. Peggy’s journey into animal training began at a young age, fueled by a deep love for horses and a natural curiosity about communication between humans and animals. Over the years, she explored various training methodologies before fully embracing clicker training—an approach that prioritizes choice, consent, and clear communication.
Throughout this engaging conversation, Peggy shares her evolution from traditional training techniques to a force-free, consent-based approach that empowers horses to actively participate in their learning. She delves into the importance of shaping, capturing, luring, and targeting—techniques that allow horses to offer behaviors willingly, without pressure. We also explore her work with miniature horses, the development of start buttons and consent signals, and how positive reinforcement is transforming the equestrian world.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
🐎 Peggy’s early experiences with both horses and dogs and how they shaped her training philosophy.
🐎 The transition from Natural Horsemanship to clicker training and why she made the switch.
🐎 How shaping, capturing, and targeting create more engaged and willing equine learners.
🐎 The power of consent-based training, including start buttons and requested behaviors.
🐎 Real-life examples of how positive reinforcement has helped rescue horses and improved their welfare.
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen:
Peggy’s passion, expertise, and innovative approach to training offer valuable insights for anyone working with horses—or any species—who wants to build a relationship based on trust, choice, and communication. Whether you’re an experienced trainer or just beginning your journey with positive reinforcement, this conversation is filled with inspiring takeaways.
Engage With Us:
Subscribe to the podcast, share this episode with fellow trainers and equine enthusiasts, and join our growing community as we continue to explore science-based, ethical training practices.
Links:
- Peggy's website: https://www.clickertraininghorses.com/
- Peggy's online coaching: https://clickertraininghorses.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ClickerTrainingHorses/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clickertraininghorses/
- The Git Up R+ Challenge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKrLsOHnEeg
- ATA 30 day $1 trial membership >>> https://atamember.com/thirty-day-trial/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm absolutely
thrilled to welcome back to the show, a
good friend and amazing trainer, Peggy Hogan.
Through her business, The Best Whisper is a
Click, Peggy has traveled internationally providing clicker training
(01:56):
clinics and lectures.
She also leads online courses.
She's a horse lover since the age of
three, when her sister put her on a
pay-per-lap pony ride.
Peggy loves all animals and has a passion
for training.
Her training background is varied, and she has
studied techniques that range from natural horsemanship to
(02:17):
classical dressage, having immersed herself in the teachings
of Peggy Cummings, founder of Connected Riding.
In the late 90s, with inspiration from Alexander
Kirlin, Peggy fully embraced clicker training and positive
reinforcement.
Learning from clicker trainers of other species, Peggy
has investigated ways to add more shaping, capturing,
(02:39):
luring, and targeting to her clicker training for
horses program.
She explains and demonstrates that horses will offer
complex behaviors freely, if given the choice.
Behaviors that range from riding, to horse agility,
to freestyle, to medical procedures.
Peggy has also worked with clicker training techniques
successfully in the area of horse rescue.
(03:01):
She has a master's degree in psychology and
has been a speaker at Clicker Expo conferences
since 2013.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Peggy Hogan back to the
ATA podcast show today.
Peggy, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
again at Animal Training Academy for episode 251.
(03:25):
Wow.
And Ryan, I can't say enough good things
about what you've done for this community.
I am amazed at this just incredible outreach.
You're brilliant at this.
And it's been fun to be around you
in this journey too.
And thank you for letting me be on
this show, because that's a significant, heartwarming boost
(03:47):
to where I feel like I fit in
the scheme of things to be on your
show.
Well, I was just listening, as I told
you, before we pushed record to Ken Ramirez
updating the CTPs before we jumped on this
podcast recording.
And I was feeling the same in there.
I was feeling community.
I was like, this is great.
(04:08):
I love being surrounded by these people.
You know, we have the same values.
And we do the same thing.
And they understand me.
And I've walked in their shoes as well.
And you're wearing your clicker expert top now.
Animal Training Academy is part of a greater
and wider and larger ecosphere of a bigger
(04:31):
community.
It is.
And a safe place.
A safe place.
Safety is so important.
Yes.
One of our values as well is creating
safety.
When we have conversations and where are people
being vulnerable and brave when they share about
their training endeavors, which can be challenging to
do in a community.
And did you know that Peggy, you were
(04:53):
first on the show way back in 2018.
Can you believe it?
Yeah.
Well, and I came to New Zealand that
we met then.
And that was really fun too.
Yeah.
Was it 2018 or 19?
It was, I was there in 19.
Wasn't it?
Oh, I should, I need to look it
up.
It was fun though.
(05:14):
Now for you to listen, I'm excited to
share that Peggy will be joining us live
as well.
Not in New Zealand again, unfortunately, but inside
our paid membership, which New Zealanders can attend
later this month to talk all about shaping
movement and horses.
And so we thought for your April, we
would jump on this episode in advance of
(05:35):
us doing that webinar for our membership to
unpack this topic a little bit together first.
And if you're interested in joining us after
this podcast for that webinar, we will add
links with the information in the show notes
for this episode.
So to get us started, Peggy, you are,
and I don't say this lightly.
(05:56):
I'm not just saying this cause you're here
and we're recording this podcast, but you're one
of my personal favorite trainers.
And one thing you're super good at in
my personal opinion is shaping.
Now for anyone listening who might be newer
to using positive reinforcement with horses and slash
or if you're the listener work of other
(06:17):
species, this is relevant for you as well
in your words, cause a lot of the
listeners are fluent in shaping as well.
For those who might not be as familiar
in your words, can you share what shaping
is and why you absolutely love it?
That's a great question.
(06:38):
Defining it.
Oh, you know, this is a parallel definition.
I love the idea that we are invested
in the science of learning behavior.
And for me, learning is what captivates me.
Probably because I've watched kids watched people learn
(07:00):
since I was in my twenties.
I've been teaching since I was in my
twenties and I just grew fascinated with what
did it take for someone to Excel at
the task.
And in this case, back in my twenties,
it was music and playing piano, but I
would watch what I thought was working for
them and analyze and watch what I thought
(07:21):
wasn't working.
How could we set up even the antecedent
arrangements?
Although I wouldn't have called it that it's,
it's a learning science.
So being fascinated with how we acquire information
to me is shaping.
It's not that I'm, it's not that I'm
making the animal do something.
It's that I'm trying to be more and
(07:42):
more clever with setting up the environment so
that the information is easily acquired.
And once they understand that I'm here as
a cheerleader, rooting them on to say, what
a great job.
What a great job.
This is great.
And reinforcing their efforts at offering behavior.
So that's a really long winded definition of
(08:06):
shaping, but I'm just hoping to God, Karen
Pryor, the, the, the, the wonder she, she
was, it was about finding the wonder of
everything.
And for me, it's about finding the wonder
of learning and acquiring knowledge and what works
for each individual.
(08:27):
And I think that's been the heart of
my shaping goals.
It's like, wow, look at him do that.
My friend had a great, great question.
Thanks for this.
She, she was so sweet.
She was looking at a little horse I
was working with, and I was, you know,
paying quickly.
I was offering food reinforcers at a pretty
high rate, but she looked at this little
(08:49):
horse and she said, Pixie, you're such a
good eater.
The criterion was, can you eat?
And she was being so generous with this
little horse, look at what a good eater
you are.
And I love that view of being able
to find something that the animal is doing
(09:10):
that we can start cultivating and, and allowing
them the success of building on what they
already can do.
So that's the aspect of shaping, finding what
they can do and finding ways to have
them offer more in the direction that they
can do.
Anyway, that's long winded.
(09:32):
And you mentioned in there that you've been
watching people learn since you were young, and
that wasn't necessarily in the space of animal
training or horse training.
And you might not have used the terms
that you use now.
And I think you mentioned their music.
(09:53):
Can we, can we talk about music?
Sure.
I've played the piano since I was actually
even before four and played that all the
way through my life and learned as many
instruments as I could.
I loved, I still love music.
Went to college.
I played a bunch of instruments, doesn't matter,
(10:13):
but went to college and majored in music
and had a phenomenal teacher.
And he said to me, Peggy, you have
a good ear and you're analytical.
I think you need to consider being a
teacher.
So he kind of opened up a few
doors for me and I taught at the
college I went to for, I taught at
(10:34):
that college for a year or two as
a student teacher.
And then I've done that my whole life.
I've had varying numbers.
I mean, somewhere around the nineties when I
actually owned my own horse, so early nineties,
when I was actually able, now I was
into horses.
(10:54):
I rode horses.
That was my passion.
But I wouldn't have called myself a horse
trainer.
And then I got these and got more
involved.
And then with a voracious learning appetite that
I have educated myself every way I could.
And clicker training was in my heart.
In fact, one of the early episodes that
(11:15):
we did, we talked about some of the
significant moments that turned me to fully embrace
clicker training.
And then that was a wonderful change too.
But music is, talk about a discipline and
practice.
Boy, that's another whole topic I would love
to just, you know, the art of learning
how to practice and how big a bite
(11:37):
do we want to try and learn at
once and how we often over face our
animals by expecting that they're going to be
able to learn volumes when they're just still
learning their ABCs.
But that's a different answer too.
When you think about shaping now, so you
start teaching music first and then you learn
(11:57):
about the science and that things you were
doing had names, which I know if you're
like a lot of people who have learned
from Susan and others, that's kind of quite
a, I don't know what the word is,
quite a like eye-opening, revealing experience to
(12:18):
kind of go, oh, like this is actually
a thing that has been studied and it
has a name.
So thinking about your journey, how do you
now, because you still teach music, right?
Like how do you apply shaping in that
context?
Are you thinking about it through a trainer's
lens?
And by the way, I've probably audited Susan's
(12:38):
course, I'm going to say at least 15
times.
I am not ashamed at all to say
that.
That is just an incredible resource and we
want to keep in touch with the changes
in the science.
So shaping in music, yes, because mostly my
goal with the students is their awareness of
(13:00):
how they acquire.
So like, do you want to memorize a
song?
How does one go about doing that?
And having them learn their own methods that
work for them.
So if it's a section of a piece
that's very difficult, is it a technical skill
(13:20):
that we need to focus on?
And this is going to sound funny, but
seriously, sometimes just saying, you notice that second
finger, so what's happening?
Well, I keep missing the note.
So do me a favor next time, watch
your finger and see what happens.
Watch your finger hit the note.
Sometimes it's simple as that, but there are
(13:40):
so many other distractions, our sound, what we
might be reading on a piece of paper,
although I did mention that this was about
memorizing, but there's so many different layers of
acquiring this ability to play a song.
And sometimes it might be just a moment
where they're looking at one hand and not
at the other.
(14:01):
And all they need to do is bring
their focus.
So that's a form of shaping.
It's introducing them to ways that they can
solve their own problems or ways that they
can.
And the music, of course, playing it correctly
is a strong reinforcer.
And then shaping in music, starting with the
simple thing of, what do you want to
(14:22):
play?
And if they're saying, well, I just heard
this song on a video game and I
really like it, I go, great, let's do
it.
And I will listen to it and transcribe
it and arrange it in a way they
can play it.
And teach them whatever is the next step,
whether it's acquiring reading notes or whether it's
(14:43):
just starting with writing the letters down.
So it's all about shaping and success of
approximation, right?
Let's start where they can and inspire and
add new material, see where they take it.
I think that had a great deal of
influence on my ability to shape horses.
I really do.
(15:03):
How so?
Just because of the breaking it down into
pieces and allowing them the space to learn
at their pace, and then introducing new things
to see where they took it.
And if they didn't respond and I didn't
keep forcing them, it's like, okay, we'll try
a different technique.
(15:24):
So I was always changing the antecedent arrangements.
I was the one that was taking responsibility
for the learning, not saying, well, you goofed
it up, take it and do it again.
We're like kids, my generation, where they would
wrap them on the knuckles if they missed
the note.
I'm serious, serious.
Take a pencil and wrap those knuckles.
You missed it.
I remember learning to play the drums and
(15:46):
I just got started.
And then my instructor at the time put
on Janet Jackson and said, play along with
this.
And I couldn't even get close to him.
He was getting frustrated at me and I
stopped drumming after that.
So I always think that in anything that
(16:08):
I learn, whether it's animal training or something
separate to animal training, like playing the piano,
how beneficial and advantageous is it to have
someone who understands behavior teaching you.
So if you want to learn piano then.
And that backchaining, there's another good one.
(16:29):
Never would have done backchaining.
I can't make myself think backwards with this
song because my ear is such an instrumental
part of it.
But backchaining is really effective.
That was a fun thing I added to
my repertoire a bunch of years ago when
I first started.
And so thinking about shaping the movement of
(16:50):
kids' fingers on the piano board, keyboard, we're
going to talk about shaping movement in horses.
Can you unpack this for the listener?
And how important is this?
And I ask this question because as I
(17:10):
ask the question, it sounds so simple, but
then I realize there's so much involved in
it.
Shaping movement.
Well, horses move.
What do you have to shape?
Movement.
And you can capture movement.
You can capture different gaits.
I've done that.
But having them be aware of what their
feet are doing, the simplest example I think
(17:31):
I can give of using the antecedent arrangements
and capturing what they do, that would be
one form of teaching movement.
They know how to move.
You're exactly right.
But let's say some people roll a ball
or hold the target out in front of
(17:51):
the horse.
What happens is the animal will learn to
follow the target, and they will learn to
follow a ball and touch it.
But there's that space that I really work
with in between those two arrangements.
And that is if you can click while
they're moving their feet to get the ball,
(18:13):
and you're clicking for that motion, there is
a place where, especially if it's a horse
that's had a few behaviors and learned what
the marker means, learned that their behavior makes
a difference, and they're aware, it's a really
fun thing to watch horses when they first
(18:33):
go, it's like, you want me to move
these things?
There's and they'll even kind of exaggerate their
movement to test the hypothesis.
I've seen this, this is my words that
I put on this, but I've seen them
move different a little while for a few
steps and a few repetitions, and then it's
like, oh, and then you can take away
the ball, and then you have an animal
(18:55):
that will move forward at a walk.
And that is really, I've had dog trainers
that work with Care and Prayer, by the
way, come up and watch me with my
animals, and I'll say, walk on, and the
horse just walks forward, which in some horse
cultures would be considered a taboo.
But the one just said, oh, I'm taking
that, and went home and started teaching her
(19:16):
dogs, which is really wonderful, because I learned
so much from the dog trainers from that
association.
But here's another quick example, moving, well, to
move in a balanced way, once the animal
has learned, I'm going to say forward, backward,
(19:36):
how to move the front end, how to
move the hind end, if I can shape
those behaviors, and then start to refine them,
that's where you can begin to take an
even deeper dive and shape how they carry
themselves, depth of the step of a hind
leg under their belly, you know, how far
does that hind leg reach?
(19:58):
You can do that with different antecedent arrangements,
too.
So now you're teaching an animal to walk
in a more balanced way.
Let me give you a quick visual.
You know, everybody loves when the horse gets
all jacked up, and they're trotting around, and
their tail is in the air, and their
neck is arched.
I mean, that's been, that look has been
(20:20):
pursued since we even first ever saw a
horse and decided we wanted to ride it.
There's something about this magnificent look.
And from that, there are lots of different
venues of ways of both getting that and
trying to recreate it.
And classical dressage has its own path with
(20:43):
lots of different inputs from that.
But mankind has pretty much wanted to, I
want to ride that thing that's looking that
good as it's prancing around.
So even that level of movement, I'm going
to say there is a value placed on
that that also says it's better for the
horse when they're carrying themselves, especially when there's
(21:07):
weight on the back.
And everybody that's done any real riding with
people, the masters, I mean, they like that
kind of training, would be nodding their head
saying, yep, yep, you know, we want them
to be moving in a balanced and collective
way.
There's so many words for it, I'm trying
to avoid.
But you can even teach that.
(21:28):
And I'm with Peggy Cummings, who was just
an amazing teacher about connected riding, but also
valuing how the horse carried its body.
Because you put weight on a horse's back,
we can damage our horses in a big
way by riding that doesn't promote the lift
(21:53):
of the back and by dragging him in
by their face.
And there's so many things that you'd see.
So she would show us what she wanted
us to do.
And then I would go back and work
for a couple weeks or whatever, a month
and then say, okay, what is this?
And I would start to shape that behavior.
I'd want that same movement, but that the
animal was able to offer that because of
(22:15):
the timing of the click and how I
taught it and the food reinforcers.
So, you know, it's a wonderful journey.
And can I take a parenthetical turn here?
Because my goal in being a part of
this quicker training community with my horses, I
am not trying to perfect, I haven't been
the person that goes out and perfects and
(22:38):
competes with what I've taught at clicker training.
My goal has been to try as many
things as possible, including shaping good movements, sound
movement.
But it's, you know, whether it's matched a
sample or agility, or whether it's being a
good therapy horse, or whether it's just carrying
(22:58):
me on a trail ride with no tack.
All of these things are things I and,
you know, healthcare, let's talk about husbandry, let's
talk about this tangent, although it's central to
who I am at this point, you know,
cooperative care, all the of those really, really
important things.
(23:19):
And so that's all about shaping.
So if there's a legacy, it would be
that I'm giving that to the people that
want to follow those paths in as many
ways as I've painting, having a little horse
that paints, or paints when he's missing missing
half a teeth.
No, no, that was the kind of a
(23:41):
byline.
So you're gonna have to educate me here,
Peggy, because I'm not super experienced in doing
the things that we're talking about today, I'm
leaning solely on you for talking about this.
But there is big gaps in my knowledge,
(24:03):
I think, in terms of what I think
you talked about Peggy Cummings teaching you, and
did you call it the biomechanics?
Yeah, yeah.
You know, tell me, in fact, you can
educate me.
Are there many people in the dog world
that talk about how the dog's body moves?
Because I mean, like, I think with the
(24:25):
seeing eye, you know, guide dogs with blind,
there's, there's a certain amount of body carriage
to escort a person that they probably need
to establish.
I don't know, I haven't heard a lot
of that talk in the dog world.
Some people do.
They say, you know, these are exercise.
Yeah, like the balance pods.
In other words, it's gonna be, I'm just
(24:45):
trying to give you a visual image that
helps you work.
But biomechanics is how does the horse move?
What is the best place for his head
and neck?
There are a lot of people that are
really, like, they were like this really tucked
chin.
And then there are lots of people are
saying you've overcooked it.
And they crank that chin in with bits
and artificial methods.
(25:06):
And now we've got horses that are overflexed.
So there are lots of discussion with how
this horse needs, they talk about the top
line, you know, it's hot to head down
the back down the legs, how slanted the
butt is, there's, you know, you've got a
whole career in a group of people that
are going to have deep conversations, depth of
(25:29):
stride, how they lift their hocks, their back
legs, you know, all of these could be
a lifetime of study.
And that that's where Peggy fits in.
You know, that was answer your question.
A recent podcast guest on the show was
Sarah Fisher, whom I watched, do some what
(25:54):
she calls free work in the UK where
she had dogs freely doing whatever they wanted
with in a set up environment or different
heights.
And, and she was just spitballing what she
was seeing.
Yeah, in terms of all of the movements.
And so, you know, sat in that seat
(26:14):
at that conference, watching Sarah, you know, in
the regards to dogs, I was going, wow,
like, my knowledge gap is huge here.
Then thinking about the amazing Laurie Stevens teaching
how movement works for Susan Friedman.
Can I throw in that I've got some
video that she's used for that course.
(26:35):
Amazing.
Amazing.
I mean, I think it's really important how
movement works.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I, it's an exciting space for me
as a podcast host, recording this one for
you guys, the listeners to say upfront that
it's a space for me to learn loads
about.
(26:56):
And so I'm so just curious and wondering,
and for the listener wanting to help them
understand, especially ones that work with horses, obviously,
like how important this is and how, when
we talk about balance, and I think you
said, I'm going to quote you.
So you tell me if I get it
wrong.
I think you said, it's better for the
(27:16):
horse when they are carrying themselves, especially when
there's weight on the back.
You put a human on the back of
a horse.
Have you ever seen those horses where, well,
you know, where the withers are just the
base of the neck, and they have this
scooped out where the muscles are just basically
non-existent.
That's generally poor fitting saddles and humans created.
(27:39):
It's really astonishing how much we do to
their bodies sitting up there the way we
do and how we do.
And so even like, this is a question,
even with a well-fitted saddle and a
person who knows what they're doing for the
horse to have, again, this is a question,
for the horse to be balanced and moving
(28:00):
in a correct way, this is, this is
behaviors they have to learn.
Because I'm going to say that it's unnatural
to have a human sitting on them, even
though it's unnatural.
Yeah, yeah, we do it.
But no, they, the more, and that, this
is Peggy Cummings on the show.
But she's sweet, too.
(28:21):
She, she admires the people like me that
want to try and make clicker training be
a part of this.
She's really supportive of that.
But yes, Brian, the, the way we sit,
I watched her do an amazing demo where
she was riding a horse and she was
using her own body in a way that
was more balanced, because that's also what she
(28:43):
teaches.
And I don't mean just balanced.
I mean, she calls it connected.
It's like Pilates and then some.
And she, the horse was moving beautifully, the
front legs were striding evenly, the back legs
were reaching far into the belly.
It was a beautiful walk.
It was just a walk.
But you could see the way the shoulders
were moving and the head was moving.
(29:05):
And then all she did was do what
a, what a lot of people do in
certain disciplines, and that is they tuck their
pelvis, they kind of crunch under like that.
She tucked her pelvis and this horse literally
ground to a stop.
She wasn't touching the reins.
It was like, okay, you can stop doing
(29:25):
that thing you just did.
And then she started moving again.
And she, she must have done this five
or six times.
And this horse just like, hey, really?
Really?
Do you have to?
Can we go back to that other thing?
It was an amazing demo.
That's and I do need to say right
from the get go.
You know, I'm like you were watching the
(29:47):
dog training.
I still feel like that with what Peggy
presents with the people that have done this
work that are really working with, with high
level dressage, especially trying to take positive reinforcement
to it.
I'm going to say I would be stepping
to the sidelines and say, just like I
taught him to do agility doesn't mean I
(30:09):
went to the agility, you know, nth degree
and won a bunch of medals and not
that they have a lot of it anyway,
with horse agility.
But, you know, I want to respect and
have people understand I want to call my
knowledge base for what it is.
And I am not an expert in self
carriage, but I am certainly aware of it.
And I have a really well developed eye
(30:31):
for animals that aren't carrying in themselves that
are for whatever reason needing.
And yes, you can.
I've one more thing.
Can I toss out?
For example, I know people shape and horses
to back up and the backup, believe it
or not.
OK, I'm going to get into specifics here.
(30:52):
Let me talk about a forward trotting is
a gate where they have diagonals, a good
way to describe it would be the left
front and the right rear go at the
same time.
And then the right front and the left
rear go at the same time.
It's really fun to go put a pair
of socks, cut the toe off, put it
(31:12):
on your horse's leg, make them two of
the same color.
So you have a red sock on the
left front and a red sock on the
rear.
That's how we used to teach kids to
look at what the trot really looks like.
Well, believe it or not, considered to be
a well-balanced backup is the same motion
in reverse, just not fast.
(31:34):
So they're supposed to have their diagonals going.
I'm being dyslexic at the moment.
Their diagonals are backing.
And I see people that shape.
They think of a backwards motion as walking.
Walking is imagine yourself crawling on all fours.
(31:55):
One, two, three, four.
Right.
If you're crawling on your hands and knees,
it's a four beat gate.
And I see people mistakenly create a four
beat gate backing with their horse.
That's not a sound gate.
And I don't you don't really want to
be sitting up there with more weight and
compression and adding whatever headgear you might use
(32:17):
trying to force this back.
I'm saying, let's learn about what a good
backup looks like.
I've seen pretty high level professionals show off
their horse backing.
And it was a four beat gate.
It was like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
You know, so that stuff is good to
(32:39):
learn.
And you can take as deep a dive
as you want in a topic.
But, you know, learning, learning, front end movement,
hind end movement, forwards and backwards.
I love shaping those behaviors because it helps
the person develop an eye for what's needed,
helps the horse understand, oh, that's what you
want.
I'm getting reinforced for that movement.
(33:01):
Transitions, you know, walk, trot, canter, slowing down
to a stop.
They're all wonderful areas to play in with
shaping.
And we want to be aware of all
of us because of.
And I don't know if I'm saying this
correctly because I don't understand it, but I've
already covered that because of the biomechanics of
(33:22):
the horse and ensuring that we're looking after
his spine and his muscle legs and all
that stuff.
Yes, we can.
A lot of the horses you see that
are old and retired, their bodies have been
trashed by people riding them in the manners
that they're being ridden.
Last Sunday, Peggy, I was loading my dryer
to dry my towels and I collapsed on
(33:45):
the floor and couldn't get up because that
was the straw that broke the camel's back
and I've been to the chiropractor a few
times this week.
And I'm sure if I had better movement,
I'm trying to relate this back to the
listener and the human example to say if
I had better movement and if I was
doing the right things for my back, then
(34:05):
I could save myself $80 this week.
I found a person in 2012 because even
then I was thinking I'm going to have
to retire.
My back isn't going to make it.
And she showed me proper movement, proper.
Yeah, cool.
You know, and thank God because that was
an incredible find.
(34:26):
Yeah, we human bodies incredible and we can
do a lot of things with it.
But there are things we're going to do
a lot better for a lot longer if
we learn how we were designed to move.
And so we're talking about the movement part
now and why that's important.
And the other part of what we're going
to talk about today and we started off
(34:46):
on this topic in the webinar we're going
to be doing later this month for our
members is on this topic and that is
shaping movement because movement is a behavior.
We can break it down.
We can teach it.
But in the world and with people that
work with horses and we can glean from
(35:08):
what you've said so far, shaping isn't always
a tool that's necessarily reached for, is it?
Not at all.
But can we play trainer talk here for
a second?
I mean, if I have a let's say
I have a halter on and I apply
pressure in a way that it affects the
angle of the horse's head and I release
(35:30):
when I get that angle of the head
and then let's say I get the angle
and I apply a little more pressure and
they start to rock back and then I
start to look at I mean, I am
shaping with with I think that is a
form of shaping.
It's okay.
So I'm going to say shaping without pressure
and define that what I'm wanting to do
(35:51):
is allow the animal to discover the movement
and then craft that movement to where I
think it's workable and then apply cues and
then apply the headgear because their feet know
what to do and they've learned more than
one cue for it.
And now let's say, by the way, you
know, that thing we do so well, this
(36:13):
feel that you're feeling on your halter.
So it's just a cue swap, new cue,
old cue, click, straight, right?
Much easier.
And there's a less of a learn, burn
on me too, because, you know, if the
horse reacts or the horse, whatever, I'm going
to say I like teaching.
That's one thing I took from natural horsemanship.
Get the behaviors on the ground, get the
(36:34):
behaviors solid before you climb on their back.
So I'm really, I'm really liking that.
And I did, I took that with me.
I think it's smart.
I just don't use aversive to create, I
like them to discover and offer it.
And then there's that discretionary effort thing, right?
(36:56):
Do you want this?
That's lovely.
How can you beat that?
Oh, and then can I share a story?
Because you always let me, you're like shaping
me, go Peggy, go, right?
I, my mare, I lost her in 2020,
but wonderful animal and started out with natural
horsemanship.
And I was, this was like 20 years
(37:19):
ago.
But anyway, she, I was asking her to
go between two paddocks.
And in this particular place we were in,
I used a hot wire stretch between because
I needed to keep the full-size horses
away from the minis.
In other words, I was not willing to
risk.
(37:40):
And also, anyway, it wasn't my property and
they didn't want permanent fencing.
So hot wire is what we had.
But I dropped the hot wire and pulled
it back.
And she had, it's not meters, I don't
do meters, but I'm going to say at
least 20 feet of space to walk through.
So even more than that.
So it wasn't a crowded space.
(38:01):
And I used a gesture that she knew
from, from her pressure days.
So I lifted my arm, which is like
as if she had a lead rope.
I didn't even have a halter on her,
but I did.
And she walked through that and then she
sort of scooted a little bit.
And I thought, wow, I have no tack
(38:22):
on her.
I'd already been, you know, training without.
And, um, but she, she scooted, she acted
like she was afraid.
I thought, and all I used was a
gesture that I had used when I was
using pressure.
So I went, got my treat pouch on
and I said, let's see what happens.
And I shaped her and we just did
(38:42):
movement forward.
Yep.
And then I would let her move away.
And so we just did some training that
way.
And I thought, wow, that was a wonderful
eye-opener for me.
Again, she, everybody would have said, okay, so
she walked a little faster, but I saw
that hurried movement.
I went, all right, let's, let's take a
look at this.
And it was such a change to go
(39:03):
switch to positive reinforcement and shape that behavior.
And that changed how she approached that is
use the positive reinforcement for, for that easy
trip.
And, uh, so that was a good lesson
all those years ago.
I think the discretionary effort is another one
of those things that pushed me.
(39:24):
It's like, wow, look at this.
And it inspires me still.
It's one of the reasons why I put
all those YouTube videos on.
It's like, I wasn't trying to become a
professional horse trainer.
I was trying to just share what I
had learned and, and look, can you believe
this?
I was so excited about it.
We're going to talk about all of us,
uh, and one, and I'm looking at the
(39:46):
time and I'm thinking, I want to talk
about all of these things that I've got
written down on my screen here, but, uh,
I realized that the episode might get a
little bit long if we do that.
So I was going to throw and share
the list and throw at you and share
with the list.
And what we've written down in terms of
the things we're going to cover in the
webinar later this month, and then, um, you
(40:09):
just trust whatever comes into your mind and
let it come out of your mouth.
And cause it's all going to be valuable.
I know that got no doubt about that.
So the other things we're going to talk
about, uh, and environmental setups when teaching movement,
um, understanding cues.
And I know how important that is to
you, um, to challenge some challenges in teaching
(40:29):
movement through shaping, um, just the value in
shaping in general.
You talked about teaching your horses to paint
earlier, matching to sample agility, um, obviously cooperative
cues, which you're very well known for in
our industry, the work that you do with
McKee and all your other horses.
Um, and then the importance of choice and
control in everything that we do.
(40:51):
And I think that discretionary effort you talked
about then, you know, in my mind, connecting
the dots back to choice and control in
that context.
Um, so we've got lots of things to
cover.
It's going to be a two hour webinar,
but how would you like to end this
episode on what, what do you most want
(41:11):
to share with the listener in terms of
the topics we just talk about and what
you're most excited to share about later this
month?
The critical role of cues in shape being,
and I say on that one, because I've
seen people get into shaping and, uh, working
without any kind of tack.
And then they have an animal that starts
(41:33):
throwing behaviors and then they get really scared
because the animal gets enthusiastic about throwing the
behaviors or even frustrated because they don't understand
our rate of reinforcement.
And the idea that we really, I think
it's a responsibility that goes hand in glove
with teaching your animal to offer behaviors.
(41:54):
And I would hate to encourage, I would
hate to be the one that would encourage
you to go try it without following up,
say, please, please, please, please follow up with
a good understanding of cues.
Because I think that's super important.
And I don't, you know, I, I don't
want to torment horses with what can happen
(42:14):
if we don't understand cues.
Um, so, uh, how shaping enhances communication, choice
and control.
Isn't that the truth?
Don't we think that, that, um, control is
a primary reinforcer.
We learned that from Susan.
That's a wonderful thing.
And I think the illustration I gave with
(42:35):
Nikki and as a, as more control over
the situation plus working for a positive outcome.
Um, I think that gave her control more
control than me just pointing that was associated
with a negative reinforcement learning history.
Um, I kind of switched as I think
(42:55):
about how I said that that's more like,
let's compare positive reinforcement with negative reinforcement in
some of these behaviors.
But I also think control and choice, uh,
are a big part of it because with
negative reinforcement, we do, we do limit the
response to no, you can't do that.
No, you can't do that.
(43:15):
Okay.
You chose that.
I'll just, I'll take that.
Uh, I don't, I, um, I need to
phrase that carefully, but I do think that
the control and the choice is because there's
choice and negative reinforcement too, but there's no,
um, outcome that's, well, that didn't work.
(43:36):
So you might feel more of an aversive
if you didn't make the right choice, which
happens in the horse world.
You know, we talk about escalating phases of
pressure.
They don't make the right choice.
The pressure gets bigger.
So, um, anyway, and we can talk about
that some, but I'm going to say the
communication for sure.
(43:57):
If our horse learns these behaviors, they know
how to move their feet.
They know what it feels like in their
body.
They've experienced it.
They've developed finesse and then we add cues.
And then we add some of our external
aids, like, you know, a saddle or a
leg or the halter or a, uh, bit
(44:17):
less bridal, whatever it is we're using.
We add those as cues to a behavior
they've already learned.
I like what that does.
Excuse me.
I like what that does for the behavior
we're hunting for.
It was fun for me to sit on
it.
That's for sure.
On a horse that knew and had learned
with those techniques.
Ooh, what other questions of environment, uh, setups?
(44:38):
Oh boy.
Yeah.
It's really fun to do shaping with, um,
with our antecedent arrangements.
Uh, one of the fun, Laura Monaco Torelli
had a really neat video where she showed,
she taught, I think it was Santino to
back up and she had X pens and
a kind of a narrow spot.
(44:59):
Well, that's a great antecedent arrangement.
Uh, I've done, I call it, I called
it long time ago, reverse round penning was
one of the first videos I put up
on YouTube was, wow, watch this horse.
I'm on the inside of the round pen
and the horse is on the outside.
I'm not making him go.
He's going because he's learned that walking is
(45:21):
important.
Walking is reinforceable.
Oh, look, trotting is a reinforceable event.
And then, you know, and the pressure isn't
from me forcing them and they give us
more and more, uh, behavior of movement.
And that's a really fun way to teach.
So that's an environmental setup.
And there are tons of fun things and
(45:41):
tricks I've learned from my experience, tricks, meaning
me, my tricks of setting up the environment.
I'm real quick to change that environment and
say, well, what do you think of this?
So, um, what else am I looking at
here?
We did color cover the, all the different
things that have been shaped, um, run in
(46:03):
height.
Yep.
Yeah.
I think that's a pretty close proximity of
the list you read without squinting too much
here through my glasses.
Awesome.
And this last session we're going to do
is, yeah, I think we can all understand
from the conversation we had just so important
for all horses and all trainers, um, at
(46:26):
all levels.
Would that be correct?
Absolutely.
Um, yes, I want to present some stuff
for people to go out and try and,
you know, a little more advanced that want
people want to do with a little deeper
dive, realizing that there's, but shaping is the
focal point.
Shaping is how, how I've got this horse
(46:48):
stand in front of me.
How am I going to teach him to
cross it's one leg over the other front
leg, or, and then it would like a
spin for, uh, braining pattern or a barrel
pattern.
You know, those are all fun things I've
shaped, um, and they're all achievable.
Amazing.
Well, we will share more of you about
this webinar.
(47:10):
If you're in our ATA orb, our web
on our mailing list or follow us on
Facebook or Instagram or anything like that, then
look out for information about it.
We're going to be sharing that soon, but
if you do want to learn from Peggy,
then you don't just have to wait for
this webinar.
You don't have to come to the webinar
because you're doing lots of things online and
my great.
Thank you.
Now we're starting soon.
You're working with the wonderful and that's left
(47:32):
from Israel and doing some other cooperative care
class.
And, uh, we're doing some fun, um, trainer
talks, inviting people to come just talk, just
talk, you know, nothing, uh, just share ideas.
How do, how do people get involved and
your other learning opportunities that you provide?
(47:54):
Where do they go?
How do they and online specific courses?
We do have like movement courses, cues, courses,
shaping courses.
Those are specific.
Uh, you know, the easiest way is to
go to clicker training horses.com and follow
the link to the, um, store, the web
store.
And then you'll see descriptions of lots of
courses.
Thank you, Ryan, for offering that where I
(48:16):
can say that to people.
I really appreciate that because we are, uh,
and we rotate, we just got done with
the training on grass course, how to train
on grass and have your horse lift his
head without having to use pressure and then
train in heavier grass.
And anyway, yeah, those are fun on courses
and multiples, how to train around multiple horses,
(48:37):
you know, love running those.
Amazing.
And we will link to all of that
in the show notes as well.
Thank you for you, the listener and for
you, Peggy.
Um, this has been so much fun to
do this again, looking forward to our webinar,
where we're going to dive deeper on all
of this stuff and get really geeky later
this month.
And, um, appreciate you, the listener taking time
(49:00):
to hang out with us as well.
Um, we'll sign off there, Peggy, we appreciate
you.
You're appreciated.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(49:21):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainers toolbox.
Remember every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery,
embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
(49:42):
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(50:03):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
(50:24):
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm absolutely
thrilled to welcome back to the show, a
good friend and amazing trainer, Peggy Hogan.
Through her business, The Best Whisper is a
Click, Peggy has traveled internationally providing clicker training
(01:56):
clinics and lectures.
She also leads online courses.
She's a horse lover since the age of
three, when her sister put her on a
pay-per-lap pony ride.
Peggy loves all animals and has a passion
for training.
Her training background is varied, and she has
studied techniques that range from natural horsemanship to
(02:17):
classical dressage, having immersed herself in the teachings
of Peggy Cummings, founder of Connected Riding.
In the late 90s, with inspiration from Alexander
Kirlin, Peggy fully embraced clicker training and positive
reinforcement.
Learning from clicker trainers of other species, Peggy
has investigated ways to add more shaping, capturing,
(02:39):
luring, and targeting to her clicker training for
horses program.
She explains and demonstrates that horses will offer
complex behaviors freely, if given the choice.
Behaviors that range from riding, to horse agility,
to freestyle, to medical procedures.
Peggy has also worked with clicker training techniques
successfully in the area of horse rescue.
(03:01):
She has a master's degree in psychology and
has been a speaker at Clicker Expo conferences
since 2013.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Peggy Hogan back to the
ATA podcast show today.
Peggy, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
again at Animal Training Academy for episode 251.
(03:25):
Wow.
And Ryan, I can't say enough good things
about what you've done for this community.
I am amazed at this just incredible outreach.
You're brilliant at this.
And it's been fun to be around you
in this journey too.
And thank you for letting me be on
this show, because that's a significant, heartwarming boost
(03:47):
to where I feel like I fit in
the scheme of things to be on your
show.
Well, I was just listening, as I told
you, before we pushed record to Ken Ramirez
updating the CTPs before we jumped on this
podcast recording.
And I was feeling the same in there.
I was feeling community.
I was like, this is great.
(04:08):
I love being surrounded by these people.
You know, we have the same values.
And we do the same thing.
And they understand me.
And I've walked in their shoes as well.
And you're wearing your clicker expert top now.
Animal Training Academy is part of a greater
and wider and larger ecosphere of a bigger
(04:31):
community.
It is.
And a safe place.
A safe place.
Safety is so important.
Yes.
One of our values as well is creating
safety.
When we have conversations and where are people
being vulnerable and brave when they share about
their training endeavors, which can be challenging to
do in a community.
And did you know that Peggy, you were
(04:53):
first on the show way back in 2018.
Can you believe it?
Yeah.
Well, and I came to New Zealand that
we met then.
And that was really fun too.
Yeah.
Was it 2018 or 19?
It was, I was there in 19.
Wasn't it?
Oh, I should, I need to look it
up.
It was fun though.
(05:14):
Now for you to listen, I'm excited to
share that Peggy will be joining us live
as well.
Not in New Zealand again, unfortunately, but inside
our paid membership, which New Zealanders can attend
later this month to talk all about shaping
movement and horses.
And so we thought for your April, we
would jump on this episode in advance of
(05:35):
us doing that webinar for our membership to
unpack this topic a little bit together first.
And if you're interested in joining us after
this podcast for that webinar, we will add
links with the information in the show notes
for this episode.
So to get us started, Peggy, you are,
and I don't say this lightly.
(05:56):
I'm not just saying this cause you're here
and we're recording this podcast, but you're one
of my personal favorite trainers.
And one thing you're super good at in
my personal opinion is shaping.
Now for anyone listening who might be newer
to using positive reinforcement with horses and slash
or if you're the listener work of other
(06:17):
species, this is relevant for you as well
in your words, cause a lot of the
listeners are fluent in shaping as well.
For those who might not be as familiar
in your words, can you share what shaping
is and why you absolutely love it?
That's a great question.
(06:38):
Defining it.
Oh, you know, this is a parallel definition.
I love the idea that we are invested
in the science of learning behavior.
And for me, learning is what captivates me.
Probably because I've watched kids watched people learn
(07:00):
since I was in my twenties.
I've been teaching since I was in my
twenties and I just grew fascinated with what
did it take for someone to Excel at
the task.
And in this case, back in my twenties,
it was music and playing piano, but I
would watch what I thought was working for
them and analyze and watch what I thought
(07:21):
wasn't working.
How could we set up even the antecedent
arrangements?
Although I wouldn't have called it that it's,
it's a learning science.
So being fascinated with how we acquire information
to me is shaping.
It's not that I'm, it's not that I'm
making the animal do something.
It's that I'm trying to be more and
(07:42):
more clever with setting up the environment so
that the information is easily acquired.
And once they understand that I'm here as
a cheerleader, rooting them on to say, what
a great job.
What a great job.
This is great.
And reinforcing their efforts at offering behavior.
So that's a really long winded definition of
(08:06):
shaping, but I'm just hoping to God, Karen
Pryor, the, the, the, the wonder she, she
was, it was about finding the wonder of
everything.
And for me, it's about finding the wonder
of learning and acquiring knowledge and what works
for each individual.
(08:27):
And I think that's been the heart of
my shaping goals.
It's like, wow, look at him do that.
My friend had a great, great question.
Thanks for this.
She, she was so sweet.
She was looking at a little horse I
was working with, and I was, you know,
paying quickly.
I was offering food reinforcers at a pretty
high rate, but she looked at this little
(08:49):
horse and she said, Pixie, you're such a
good eater.
The criterion was, can you eat?
And she was being so generous with this
little horse, look at what a good eater
you are.
And I love that view of being able
to find something that the animal is doing
(09:10):
that we can start cultivating and, and allowing
them the success of building on what they
already can do.
So that's the aspect of shaping, finding what
they can do and finding ways to have
them offer more in the direction that they
can do.
Anyway, that's long winded.
(09:32):
And you mentioned in there that you've been
watching people learn since you were young, and
that wasn't necessarily in the space of animal
training or horse training.
And you might not have used the terms
that you use now.
And I think you mentioned their music.
(09:53):
Can we, can we talk about music?
Sure.
I've played the piano since I was actually
even before four and played that all the
way through my life and learned as many
instruments as I could.
I loved, I still love music.
Went to college.
I played a bunch of instruments, doesn't matter,
(10:13):
but went to college and majored in music
and had a phenomenal teacher.
And he said to me, Peggy, you have
a good ear and you're analytical.
I think you need to consider being a
teacher.
So he kind of opened up a few
doors for me and I taught at the
college I went to for, I taught at
(10:34):
that college for a year or two as
a student teacher.
And then I've done that my whole life.
I've had varying numbers.
I mean, somewhere around the nineties when I
actually owned my own horse, so early nineties,
when I was actually able, now I was
into horses.
(10:54):
I rode horses.
That was my passion.
But I wouldn't have called myself a horse
trainer.
And then I got these and got more
involved.
And then with a voracious learning appetite that
I have educated myself every way I could.
And clicker training was in my heart.
In fact, one of the early episodes that
(11:15):
we did, we talked about some of the
significant moments that turned me to fully embrace
clicker training.
And then that was a wonderful change too.
But music is, talk about a discipline and
practice.
Boy, that's another whole topic I would love
to just, you know, the art of learning
how to practice and how big a bite
(11:37):
do we want to try and learn at
once and how we often over face our
animals by expecting that they're going to be
able to learn volumes when they're just still
learning their ABCs.
But that's a different answer too.
When you think about shaping now, so you
start teaching music first and then you learn
(11:57):
about the science and that things you were
doing had names, which I know if you're
like a lot of people who have learned
from Susan and others, that's kind of quite
a, I don't know what the word is,
quite a like eye-opening, revealing experience to
(12:18):
kind of go, oh, like this is actually
a thing that has been studied and it
has a name.
So thinking about your journey, how do you
now, because you still teach music, right?
Like how do you apply shaping in that
context?
Are you thinking about it through a trainer's
lens?
And by the way, I've probably audited Susan's
(12:38):
course, I'm going to say at least 15
times.
I am not ashamed at all to say
that.
That is just an incredible resource and we
want to keep in touch with the changes
in the science.
So shaping in music, yes, because mostly my
goal with the students is their awareness of
(13:00):
how they acquire.
So like, do you want to memorize a
song?
How does one go about doing that?
And having them learn their own methods that
work for them.
So if it's a section of a piece
that's very difficult, is it a technical skill
(13:20):
that we need to focus on?
And this is going to sound funny, but
seriously, sometimes just saying, you notice that second
finger, so what's happening?
Well, I keep missing the note.
So do me a favor next time, watch
your finger and see what happens.
Watch your finger hit the note.
Sometimes it's simple as that, but there are
(13:40):
so many other distractions, our sound, what we
might be reading on a piece of paper,
although I did mention that this was about
memorizing, but there's so many different layers of
acquiring this ability to play a song.
And sometimes it might be just a moment
where they're looking at one hand and not
at the other.
(14:01):
And all they need to do is bring
their focus.
So that's a form of shaping.
It's introducing them to ways that they can
solve their own problems or ways that they
can.
And the music, of course, playing it correctly
is a strong reinforcer.
And then shaping in music, starting with the
simple thing of, what do you want to
(14:22):
play?
And if they're saying, well, I just heard
this song on a video game and I
really like it, I go, great, let's do
it.
And I will listen to it and transcribe
it and arrange it in a way they
can play it.
And teach them whatever is the next step,
whether it's acquiring reading notes or whether it's
(14:43):
just starting with writing the letters down.
So it's all about shaping and success of
approximation, right?
Let's start where they can and inspire and
add new material, see where they take it.
I think that had a great deal of
influence on my ability to shape horses.
I really do.
(15:03):
How so?
Just because of the breaking it down into
pieces and allowing them the space to learn
at their pace, and then introducing new things
to see where they took it.
And if they didn't respond and I didn't
keep forcing them, it's like, okay, we'll try
a different technique.
(15:24):
So I was always changing the antecedent arrangements.
I was the one that was taking responsibility
for the learning, not saying, well, you goofed
it up, take it and do it again.
We're like kids, my generation, where they would
wrap them on the knuckles if they missed
the note.
I'm serious, serious.
Take a pencil and wrap those knuckles.
You missed it.
I remember learning to play the drums and
(15:46):
I just got started.
And then my instructor at the time put
on Janet Jackson and said, play along with
this.
And I couldn't even get close to him.
He was getting frustrated at me and I
stopped drumming after that.
So I always think that in anything that
(16:08):
I learn, whether it's animal training or something
separate to animal training, like playing the piano,
how beneficial and advantageous is it to have
someone who understands behavior teaching you.
So if you want to learn piano then.
And that backchaining, there's another good one.
(16:29):
Never would have done backchaining.
I can't make myself think backwards with this
song because my ear is such an instrumental
part of it.
But backchaining is really effective.
That was a fun thing I added to
my repertoire a bunch of years ago when
I first started.
And so thinking about shaping the movement of
(16:50):
kids' fingers on the piano board, keyboard, we're
going to talk about shaping movement in horses.
Can you unpack this for the listener?
And how important is this?
And I ask this question because as I
(17:10):
ask the question, it sounds so simple, but
then I realize there's so much involved in
it.
Shaping movement.
Well, horses move.
What do you have to shape?
Movement.
And you can capture movement.
You can capture different gaits.
I've done that.
But having them be aware of what their
feet are doing, the simplest example I think
(17:31):
I can give of using the antecedent arrangements
and capturing what they do, that would be
one form of teaching movement.
They know how to move.
You're exactly right.
But let's say some people roll a ball
or hold the target out in front of
(17:51):
the horse.
What happens is the animal will learn to
follow the target, and they will learn to
follow a ball and touch it.
But there's that space that I really work
with in between those two arrangements.
And that is if you can click while
they're moving their feet to get the ball,
(18:13):
and you're clicking for that motion, there is
a place where, especially if it's a horse
that's had a few behaviors and learned what
the marker means, learned that their behavior makes
a difference, and they're aware, it's a really
fun thing to watch horses when they first
(18:33):
go, it's like, you want me to move
these things?
There's and they'll even kind of exaggerate their
movement to test the hypothesis.
I've seen this, this is my words that
I put on this, but I've seen them
move different a little while for a few
steps and a few repetitions, and then it's
like, oh, and then you can take away
the ball, and then you have an animal
(18:55):
that will move forward at a walk.
And that is really, I've had dog trainers
that work with Care and Prayer, by the
way, come up and watch me with my
animals, and I'll say, walk on, and the
horse just walks forward, which in some horse
cultures would be considered a taboo.
But the one just said, oh, I'm taking
that, and went home and started teaching her
(19:16):
dogs, which is really wonderful, because I learned
so much from the dog trainers from that
association.
But here's another quick example, moving, well, to
move in a balanced way, once the animal
has learned, I'm going to say forward, backward,
(19:36):
how to move the front end, how to
move the hind end, if I can shape
those behaviors, and then start to refine them,
that's where you can begin to take an
even deeper dive and shape how they carry
themselves, depth of the step of a hind
leg under their belly, you know, how far
does that hind leg reach?
(19:58):
You can do that with different antecedent arrangements,
too.
So now you're teaching an animal to walk
in a more balanced way.
Let me give you a quick visual.
You know, everybody loves when the horse gets
all jacked up, and they're trotting around, and
their tail is in the air, and their
neck is arched.
I mean, that's been, that look has been
(20:20):
pursued since we even first ever saw a
horse and decided we wanted to ride it.
There's something about this magnificent look.
And from that, there are lots of different
venues of ways of both getting that and
trying to recreate it.
And classical dressage has its own path with
(20:43):
lots of different inputs from that.
But mankind has pretty much wanted to, I
want to ride that thing that's looking that
good as it's prancing around.
So even that level of movement, I'm going
to say there is a value placed on
that that also says it's better for the
horse when they're carrying themselves, especially when there's
(21:07):
weight on the back.
And everybody that's done any real riding with
people, the masters, I mean, they like that
kind of training, would be nodding their head
saying, yep, yep, you know, we want them
to be moving in a balanced and collective
way.
There's so many words for it, I'm trying
to avoid.
But you can even teach that.
(21:28):
And I'm with Peggy Cummings, who was just
an amazing teacher about connected riding, but also
valuing how the horse carried its body.
Because you put weight on a horse's back,
we can damage our horses in a big
way by riding that doesn't promote the lift
(21:53):
of the back and by dragging him in
by their face.
And there's so many things that you'd see.
So she would show us what she wanted
us to do.
And then I would go back and work
for a couple weeks or whatever, a month
and then say, okay, what is this?
And I would start to shape that behavior.
I'd want that same movement, but that the
animal was able to offer that because of
(22:15):
the timing of the click and how I
taught it and the food reinforcers.
So, you know, it's a wonderful journey.
And can I take a parenthetical turn here?
Because my goal in being a part of
this quicker training community with my horses, I
am not trying to perfect, I haven't been
the person that goes out and perfects and
(22:38):
competes with what I've taught at clicker training.
My goal has been to try as many
things as possible, including shaping good movements, sound
movement.
But it's, you know, whether it's matched a
sample or agility, or whether it's being a
good therapy horse, or whether it's just carrying
(22:58):
me on a trail ride with no tack.
All of these things are things I and,
you know, healthcare, let's talk about husbandry, let's
talk about this tangent, although it's central to
who I am at this point, you know,
cooperative care, all the of those really, really
important things.
(23:19):
And so that's all about shaping.
So if there's a legacy, it would be
that I'm giving that to the people that
want to follow those paths in as many
ways as I've painting, having a little horse
that paints, or paints when he's missing missing
half a teeth.
No, no, that was the kind of a
(23:41):
byline.
So you're gonna have to educate me here,
Peggy, because I'm not super experienced in doing
the things that we're talking about today, I'm
leaning solely on you for talking about this.
But there is big gaps in my knowledge,
(24:03):
I think, in terms of what I think
you talked about Peggy Cummings teaching you, and
did you call it the biomechanics?
Yeah, yeah.
You know, tell me, in fact, you can
educate me.
Are there many people in the dog world
that talk about how the dog's body moves?
Because I mean, like, I think with the
(24:25):
seeing eye, you know, guide dogs with blind,
there's, there's a certain amount of body carriage
to escort a person that they probably need
to establish.
I don't know, I haven't heard a lot
of that talk in the dog world.
Some people do.
They say, you know, these are exercise.
Yeah, like the balance pods.
In other words, it's gonna be, I'm just
(24:45):
trying to give you a visual image that
helps you work.
But biomechanics is how does the horse move?
What is the best place for his head
and neck?
There are a lot of people that are
really, like, they were like this really tucked
chin.
And then there are lots of people are
saying you've overcooked it.
And they crank that chin in with bits
and artificial methods.
(25:06):
And now we've got horses that are overflexed.
So there are lots of discussion with how
this horse needs, they talk about the top
line, you know, it's hot to head down
the back down the legs, how slanted the
butt is, there's, you know, you've got a
whole career in a group of people that
are going to have deep conversations, depth of
(25:29):
stride, how they lift their hocks, their back
legs, you know, all of these could be
a lifetime of study.
And that that's where Peggy fits in.
You know, that was answer your question.
A recent podcast guest on the show was
Sarah Fisher, whom I watched, do some what
(25:54):
she calls free work in the UK where
she had dogs freely doing whatever they wanted
with in a set up environment or different
heights.
And, and she was just spitballing what she
was seeing.
Yeah, in terms of all of the movements.
And so, you know, sat in that seat
(26:14):
at that conference, watching Sarah, you know, in
the regards to dogs, I was going, wow,
like, my knowledge gap is huge here.
Then thinking about the amazing Laurie Stevens teaching
how movement works for Susan Friedman.
Can I throw in that I've got some
video that she's used for that course.
(26:35):
Amazing.
Amazing.
I mean, I think it's really important how
movement works.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I, it's an exciting space for me
as a podcast host, recording this one for
you guys, the listeners to say upfront that
it's a space for me to learn loads
about.
(26:56):
And so I'm so just curious and wondering,
and for the listener wanting to help them
understand, especially ones that work with horses, obviously,
like how important this is and how, when
we talk about balance, and I think you
said, I'm going to quote you.
So you tell me if I get it
wrong.
I think you said, it's better for the
(27:16):
horse when they are carrying themselves, especially when
there's weight on the back.
You put a human on the back of
a horse.
Have you ever seen those horses where, well,
you know, where the withers are just the
base of the neck, and they have this
scooped out where the muscles are just basically
non-existent.
That's generally poor fitting saddles and humans created.
(27:39):
It's really astonishing how much we do to
their bodies sitting up there the way we
do and how we do.
And so even like, this is a question,
even with a well-fitted saddle and a
person who knows what they're doing for the
horse to have, again, this is a question,
for the horse to be balanced and moving
(28:00):
in a correct way, this is, this is
behaviors they have to learn.
Because I'm going to say that it's unnatural
to have a human sitting on them, even
though it's unnatural.
Yeah, yeah, we do it.
But no, they, the more, and that, this
is Peggy Cummings on the show.
But she's sweet, too.
(28:21):
She, she admires the people like me that
want to try and make clicker training be
a part of this.
She's really supportive of that.
But yes, Brian, the, the way we sit,
I watched her do an amazing demo where
she was riding a horse and she was
using her own body in a way that
was more balanced, because that's also what she
(28:43):
teaches.
And I don't mean just balanced.
I mean, she calls it connected.
It's like Pilates and then some.
And she, the horse was moving beautifully, the
front legs were striding evenly, the back legs
were reaching far into the belly.
It was a beautiful walk.
It was just a walk.
But you could see the way the shoulders
were moving and the head was moving.
(29:05):
And then all she did was do what
a, what a lot of people do in
certain disciplines, and that is they tuck their
pelvis, they kind of crunch under like that.
She tucked her pelvis and this horse literally
ground to a stop.
She wasn't touching the reins.
It was like, okay, you can stop doing
(29:25):
that thing you just did.
And then she started moving again.
And she, she must have done this five
or six times.
And this horse just like, hey, really?
Really?
Do you have to?
Can we go back to that other thing?
It was an amazing demo.
That's and I do need to say right
from the get go.
You know, I'm like you were watching the
(29:47):
dog training.
I still feel like that with what Peggy
presents with the people that have done this
work that are really working with, with high
level dressage, especially trying to take positive reinforcement
to it.
I'm going to say I would be stepping
to the sidelines and say, just like I
taught him to do agility doesn't mean I
(30:09):
went to the agility, you know, nth degree
and won a bunch of medals and not
that they have a lot of it anyway,
with horse agility.
But, you know, I want to respect and
have people understand I want to call my
knowledge base for what it is.
And I am not an expert in self
carriage, but I am certainly aware of it.
And I have a really well developed eye
(30:31):
for animals that aren't carrying in themselves that
are for whatever reason needing.
And yes, you can.
I've one more thing.
Can I toss out?
For example, I know people shape and horses
to back up and the backup, believe it
or not.
OK, I'm going to get into specifics here.
(30:52):
Let me talk about a forward trotting is
a gate where they have diagonals, a good
way to describe it would be the left
front and the right rear go at the
same time.
And then the right front and the left
rear go at the same time.
It's really fun to go put a pair
of socks, cut the toe off, put it
(31:12):
on your horse's leg, make them two of
the same color.
So you have a red sock on the
left front and a red sock on the
rear.
That's how we used to teach kids to
look at what the trot really looks like.
Well, believe it or not, considered to be
a well-balanced backup is the same motion
in reverse, just not fast.
(31:34):
So they're supposed to have their diagonals going.
I'm being dyslexic at the moment.
Their diagonals are backing.
And I see people that shape.
They think of a backwards motion as walking.
Walking is imagine yourself crawling on all fours.
(31:55):
One, two, three, four.
Right.
If you're crawling on your hands and knees,
it's a four beat gate.
And I see people mistakenly create a four
beat gate backing with their horse.
That's not a sound gate.
And I don't you don't really want to
be sitting up there with more weight and
compression and adding whatever headgear you might use
(32:17):
trying to force this back.
I'm saying, let's learn about what a good
backup looks like.
I've seen pretty high level professionals show off
their horse backing.
And it was a four beat gate.
It was like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.
You know, so that stuff is good to
(32:39):
learn.
And you can take as deep a dive
as you want in a topic.
But, you know, learning, learning, front end movement,
hind end movement, forwards and backwards.
I love shaping those behaviors because it helps
the person develop an eye for what's needed,
helps the horse understand, oh, that's what you
want.
I'm getting reinforced for that movement.
(33:01):
Transitions, you know, walk, trot, canter, slowing down
to a stop.
They're all wonderful areas to play in with
shaping.
And we want to be aware of all
of us because of.
And I don't know if I'm saying this
correctly because I don't understand it, but I've
already covered that because of the biomechanics of
(33:22):
the horse and ensuring that we're looking after
his spine and his muscle legs and all
that stuff.
Yes, we can.
A lot of the horses you see that
are old and retired, their bodies have been
trashed by people riding them in the manners
that they're being ridden.
Last Sunday, Peggy, I was loading my dryer
to dry my towels and I collapsed on
(33:45):
the floor and couldn't get up because that
was the straw that broke the camel's back
and I've been to the chiropractor a few
times this week.
And I'm sure if I had better movement,
I'm trying to relate this back to the
listener and the human example to say if
I had better movement and if I was
doing the right things for my back, then
(34:05):
I could save myself $80 this week.
I found a person in 2012 because even
then I was thinking I'm going to have
to retire.
My back isn't going to make it.
And she showed me proper movement, proper.
Yeah, cool.
You know, and thank God because that was
an incredible find.
(34:26):
Yeah, we human bodies incredible and we can
do a lot of things with it.
But there are things we're going to do
a lot better for a lot longer if
we learn how we were designed to move.
And so we're talking about the movement part
now and why that's important.
And the other part of what we're going
to talk about today and we started off
(34:46):
on this topic in the webinar we're going
to be doing later this month for our
members is on this topic and that is
shaping movement because movement is a behavior.
We can break it down.
We can teach it.
But in the world and with people that
work with horses and we can glean from
(35:08):
what you've said so far, shaping isn't always
a tool that's necessarily reached for, is it?
Not at all.
But can we play trainer talk here for
a second?
I mean, if I have a let's say
I have a halter on and I apply
pressure in a way that it affects the
angle of the horse's head and I release
(35:30):
when I get that angle of the head
and then let's say I get the angle
and I apply a little more pressure and
they start to rock back and then I
start to look at I mean, I am
shaping with with I think that is a
form of shaping.
It's okay.
So I'm going to say shaping without pressure
and define that what I'm wanting to do
(35:51):
is allow the animal to discover the movement
and then craft that movement to where I
think it's workable and then apply cues and
then apply the headgear because their feet know
what to do and they've learned more than
one cue for it.
And now let's say, by the way, you
know, that thing we do so well, this
(36:13):
feel that you're feeling on your halter.
So it's just a cue swap, new cue,
old cue, click, straight, right?
Much easier.
And there's a less of a learn, burn
on me too, because, you know, if the
horse reacts or the horse, whatever, I'm going
to say I like teaching.
That's one thing I took from natural horsemanship.
Get the behaviors on the ground, get the
(36:34):
behaviors solid before you climb on their back.
So I'm really, I'm really liking that.
And I did, I took that with me.
I think it's smart.
I just don't use aversive to create, I
like them to discover and offer it.
And then there's that discretionary effort thing, right?
(36:56):
Do you want this?
That's lovely.
How can you beat that?
Oh, and then can I share a story?
Because you always let me, you're like shaping
me, go Peggy, go, right?
I, my mare, I lost her in 2020,
but wonderful animal and started out with natural
horsemanship.
And I was, this was like 20 years
(37:19):
ago.
But anyway, she, I was asking her to
go between two paddocks.
And in this particular place we were in,
I used a hot wire stretch between because
I needed to keep the full-size horses
away from the minis.
In other words, I was not willing to
risk.
(37:40):
And also, anyway, it wasn't my property and
they didn't want permanent fencing.
So hot wire is what we had.
But I dropped the hot wire and pulled
it back.
And she had, it's not meters, I don't
do meters, but I'm going to say at
least 20 feet of space to walk through.
So even more than that.
So it wasn't a crowded space.
(38:01):
And I used a gesture that she knew
from, from her pressure days.
So I lifted my arm, which is like
as if she had a lead rope.
I didn't even have a halter on her,
but I did.
And she walked through that and then she
sort of scooted a little bit.
And I thought, wow, I have no tack
(38:22):
on her.
I'd already been, you know, training without.
And, um, but she, she scooted, she acted
like she was afraid.
I thought, and all I used was a
gesture that I had used when I was
using pressure.
So I went, got my treat pouch on
and I said, let's see what happens.
And I shaped her and we just did
(38:42):
movement forward.
Yep.
And then I would let her move away.
And so we just did some training that
way.
And I thought, wow, that was a wonderful
eye-opener for me.
Again, she, everybody would have said, okay, so
she walked a little faster, but I saw
that hurried movement.
I went, all right, let's, let's take a
look at this.
And it was such a change to go
(39:03):
switch to positive reinforcement and shape that behavior.
And that changed how she approached that is
use the positive reinforcement for, for that easy
trip.
And, uh, so that was a good lesson
all those years ago.
I think the discretionary effort is another one
of those things that pushed me.
(39:24):
It's like, wow, look at this.
And it inspires me still.
It's one of the reasons why I put
all those YouTube videos on.
It's like, I wasn't trying to become a
professional horse trainer.
I was trying to just share what I
had learned and, and look, can you believe
this?
I was so excited about it.
We're going to talk about all of us,
uh, and one, and I'm looking at the
(39:46):
time and I'm thinking, I want to talk
about all of these things that I've got
written down on my screen here, but, uh,
I realized that the episode might get a
little bit long if we do that.
So I was going to throw and share
the list and throw at you and share
with the list.
And what we've written down in terms of
the things we're going to cover in the
webinar later this month, and then, um, you
(40:09):
just trust whatever comes into your mind and
let it come out of your mouth.
And cause it's all going to be valuable.
I know that got no doubt about that.
So the other things we're going to talk
about, uh, and environmental setups when teaching movement,
um, understanding cues.
And I know how important that is to
you, um, to challenge some challenges in teaching
(40:29):
movement through shaping, um, just the value in
shaping in general.
You talked about teaching your horses to paint
earlier, matching to sample agility, um, obviously cooperative
cues, which you're very well known for in
our industry, the work that you do with
McKee and all your other horses.
Um, and then the importance of choice and
control in everything that we do.
(40:51):
And I think that discretionary effort you talked
about then, you know, in my mind, connecting
the dots back to choice and control in
that context.
Um, so we've got lots of things to
cover.
It's going to be a two hour webinar,
but how would you like to end this
episode on what, what do you most want
(41:11):
to share with the listener in terms of
the topics we just talk about and what
you're most excited to share about later this
month?
The critical role of cues in shape being,
and I say on that one, because I've
seen people get into shaping and, uh, working
without any kind of tack.
And then they have an animal that starts
(41:33):
throwing behaviors and then they get really scared
because the animal gets enthusiastic about throwing the
behaviors or even frustrated because they don't understand
our rate of reinforcement.
And the idea that we really, I think
it's a responsibility that goes hand in glove
with teaching your animal to offer behaviors.
(41:54):
And I would hate to encourage, I would
hate to be the one that would encourage
you to go try it without following up,
say, please, please, please, please follow up with
a good understanding of cues.
Because I think that's super important.
And I don't, you know, I, I don't
want to torment horses with what can happen
(42:14):
if we don't understand cues.
Um, so, uh, how shaping enhances communication, choice
and control.
Isn't that the truth?
Don't we think that, that, um, control is
a primary reinforcer.
We learned that from Susan.
That's a wonderful thing.
And I think the illustration I gave with
(42:35):
Nikki and as a, as more control over
the situation plus working for a positive outcome.
Um, I think that gave her control more
control than me just pointing that was associated
with a negative reinforcement learning history.
Um, I kind of switched as I think
(42:55):
about how I said that that's more like,
let's compare positive reinforcement with negative reinforcement in
some of these behaviors.
But I also think control and choice, uh,
are a big part of it because with
negative reinforcement, we do, we do limit the
response to no, you can't do that.
No, you can't do that.
(43:15):
Okay.
You chose that.
I'll just, I'll take that.
Uh, I don't, I, um, I need to
phrase that carefully, but I do think that
the control and the choice is because there's
choice and negative reinforcement too, but there's no,
um, outcome that's, well, that didn't work.
(43:36):
So you might feel more of an aversive
if you didn't make the right choice, which
happens in the horse world.
You know, we talk about escalating phases of
pressure.
They don't make the right choice.
The pressure gets bigger.
So, um, anyway, and we can talk about
that some, but I'm going to say the
communication for sure.
(43:57):
If our horse learns these behaviors, they know
how to move their feet.
They know what it feels like in their
body.
They've experienced it.
They've developed finesse and then we add cues.
And then we add some of our external
aids, like, you know, a saddle or a
leg or the halter or a, uh, bit
(44:17):
less bridal, whatever it is we're using.
We add those as cues to a behavior
they've already learned.
I like what that does.
Excuse me.
I like what that does for the behavior
we're hunting for.
It was fun for me to sit on
it.
That's for sure.
On a horse that knew and had learned
with those techniques.
Ooh, what other questions of environment, uh, setups?
(44:38):
Oh boy.
Yeah.
It's really fun to do shaping with, um,
with our antecedent arrangements.
Uh, one of the fun, Laura Monaco Torelli
had a really neat video where she showed,
she taught, I think it was Santino to
back up and she had X pens and
a kind of a narrow spot.
(44:59):
Well, that's a great antecedent arrangement.
Uh, I've done, I call it, I called
it long time ago, reverse round penning was
one of the first videos I put up
on YouTube was, wow, watch this horse.
I'm on the inside of the round pen
and the horse is on the outside.
I'm not making him go.
He's going because he's learned that walking is
(45:21):
important.
Walking is reinforceable.
Oh, look, trotting is a reinforceable event.
And then, you know, and the pressure isn't
from me forcing them and they give us
more and more, uh, behavior of movement.
And that's a really fun way to teach.
So that's an environmental setup.
And there are tons of fun things and
(45:41):
tricks I've learned from my experience, tricks, meaning
me, my tricks of setting up the environment.
I'm real quick to change that environment and
say, well, what do you think of this?
So, um, what else am I looking at
here?
We did color cover the, all the different
things that have been shaped, um, run in
(46:03):
height.
Yep.
Yeah.
I think that's a pretty close proximity of
the list you read without squinting too much
here through my glasses.
Awesome.
And this last session we're going to do
is, yeah, I think we can all understand
from the conversation we had just so important
for all horses and all trainers, um, at
(46:26):
all levels.
Would that be correct?
Absolutely.
Um, yes, I want to present some stuff
for people to go out and try and,
you know, a little more advanced that want
people want to do with a little deeper
dive, realizing that there's, but shaping is the
focal point.
Shaping is how, how I've got this horse
(46:48):
stand in front of me.
How am I going to teach him to
cross it's one leg over the other front
leg, or, and then it would like a
spin for, uh, braining pattern or a barrel
pattern.
You know, those are all fun things I've
shaped, um, and they're all achievable.
Amazing.
Well, we will share more of you about
this webinar.
(47:10):
If you're in our ATA orb, our web
on our mailing list or follow us on
Facebook or Instagram or anything like that, then
look out for information about it.
We're going to be sharing that soon, but
if you do want to learn from Peggy,
then you don't just have to wait for
this webinar.
You don't have to come to the webinar
because you're doing lots of things online and
my great.
Thank you.
Now we're starting soon.
You're working with the wonderful and that's left
(47:32):
from Israel and doing some other cooperative care
class.
And, uh, we're doing some fun, um, trainer
talks, inviting people to come just talk, just
talk, you know, nothing, uh, just share ideas.
How do, how do people get involved and
your other learning opportunities that you provide?
(47:54):
Where do they go?
How do they and online specific courses?
We do have like movement courses, cues, courses,
shaping courses.
Those are specific.
Uh, you know, the easiest way is to
go to clicker training horses.com and follow
the link to the, um, store, the web
store.
And then you'll see descriptions of lots of
courses.
Thank you, Ryan, for offering that where I
(48:16):
can say that to people.
I really appreciate that because we are, uh,
and we rotate, we just got done with
the training on grass course, how to train
on grass and have your horse lift his
head without having to use pressure and then
train in heavier grass.
And anyway, yeah, those are fun on courses
and multiples, how to train around multiple horses,
(48:37):
you know, love running those.
Amazing.
And we will link to all of that
in the show notes as well.
Thank you for you, the listener and for
you, Peggy.
Um, this has been so much fun to
do this again, looking forward to our webinar,
where we're going to dive deeper on all
of this stuff and get really geeky later
this month.
And, um, appreciate you, the listener taking time
(49:00):
to hang out with us as well.
Um, we'll sign off there, Peggy, we appreciate
you.
You're appreciated.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(49:21):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainers toolbox.
Remember every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery,
embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
(49:42):
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(50:03):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
(50:24):
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com