February 24, 2025 • 48 mins
In part one of this compelling two-part episode of the Animal Training Academy podcast, we are honored to welcome Sarah Fisher, a renowned canine and equine behavior advisor, educator, and co-founder of Animal Centred Education (ACE). With nearly 30 years of experience working with animals, Sarah has dedicated her career to helping trainers, caregivers, and behavior professionals develop a deeper understanding of their animal learners.
In this first part of our conversation, Sarah takes us on a heartfelt journey through her formative years and the pivotal moments that shaped her approach to animal training. She shares insights into how childhood experiences, personal loss, and human therapeutic studies influenced her philosophy on animal welfare, behavior, and communication. We also explore the foundation of ACE, the power of Free Work, and the importance of allowing dogs to pilot their own learning experiences.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
🐾 Sarah’s early experiences with animals and the lessons she learned from her upbringing.
🐾 The emotional and behavioral connections between animals and humans.
🐾 How human bodywork and therapeutic studies shaped Sarah’s approach to working with animals.
🐾 The story behind Tilly Farm and how it became a hub for ACE education.
🐾 The principles of ACE Free Work and why it’s transforming the lives of dogs and their caregivers.
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen:
Sarah’s deeply personal journey, combined with her expertise in behavior and animal welfare, offers invaluable insights for trainers, behaviorists, and anyone passionate about improving the well-being of animals.
Engage With Us:
Subscribe to the podcast, share this episode with fellow trainers and animal enthusiasts, and join our vibrant community to explore science-based, ethical training approaches.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where we
will talk to one Sarah Fisher.
Sarah is a canine and equine behavior advisor
with nearly 30 years of experience.
She co-founded Animal Centred Education, aka ACE,
(01:55):
alongside her two influential canine educators, Cookie, Doe,
Dynamo, and Henry.
Sarah teaches ACE courses for trainers, groomers, vets,
and animal behavior professionals, focusing on ACE observations,
ACE free work, gentle bodywork, and methods inspired
by animal welfare and education professionals.
(02:16):
ACE free work empowers dogs to become the
pilot of their learning experiences, allowing them to
reorganize their bodies more efficiently.
This method has been transformative for dogs of
all ages, helping them respond better to their
environment.
Sarah is experienced with a wide range of
breed types and has taught workshops for animal
(02:37):
welfare organizations, including Battersea, and in Europe, South
Africa, and several other countries.
She also delivers online courses, webinars, and presentations
at dog training and behavior seminars globally, including
the annual Dog Behavior Conference.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Sarah Fisher to the show
(02:59):
today, who is patiently waiting by literally on
the other side of the planet from me.
Sarah, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at ATA.
Thank you so much for inviting me, Ryan.
It's an absolute pleasure to be here.
I'm super excited to share you with our
audience and get to learn a little bit
(03:20):
more about you today.
So let's dive straight in to the first
question, Sarah.
For this one, I love hearing about people's
behavioral odysseys, as I like to call them.
So I was hoping that you could take
me and the listeners back to where you
first started, where you first learned about animal
behavior, animal training, positive reinforcement, and share some
(03:44):
stories with us from your personal journey.
Wow, how long have we got, Ryan?
Well, you know, when people ask me about
that and I think about my first experiences
learning about some of the stuff I share
today, it actually goes right back to my
childhood.
And I was really lucky that I grew
up with family who valued animals as part
(04:08):
of the family.
And my paternal grandmother had rescued dogs.
She had two during my lifetime, so they
lived forever.
Two dogs, one called Peggy and one called
Susie.
And I remember as a child going to
visit with my sister and my parents, we
were not allowed to stare at the dogs.
We were to keep away from them, not
(04:29):
touch them.
And she would, my grandmother would sit with
them and they'd be by the side of
her chair.
And it was impressed on us that this
was their space.
And we didn't have any issue sort of
following that guidance.
So understanding that staring at dogs that can
be very intimidating and they're not there to
(04:49):
be touched because the human has the need
was an integral part of my childhood.
But then my mother's sister, my aunt had
a labrador called Kerry and he had a
hip issue.
I think he'd had an accident and he
had known arthritis in the left hip.
So we were allowed to stroke him.
He came up to us and we were
(05:10):
allowed to engage with him, but we were
absolutely not allowed to touch him on that
left hip.
And if we did, and he growled, we
were the ones that got into trouble for
not honoring the space that Kerry needed.
So all of that knowledge was just part
of my life with animals.
(05:31):
And we used to go on holiday to
Portugal and I would be adopted by some
of the community dogs.
And I have such amazing memories of spending
my summer holidays exploring rock pools in the
company of the community dogs while my sister
and my parents sunbathed on the beach.
(05:52):
And I didn't have food, reward-based training
wasn't a thing.
I didn't have any dog toys with me.
It was just the joy of a shared
space together and the joy of exploration.
And I'm sure that influences how I connect
with dogs today.
And so much of my childhood, I think
(06:12):
about all the lessons I learned, my father's
obsession about making sure all our animals had
access to fresh, clean water all the time.
Always saying, the animals didn't choose you.
You picked those animals to come and share
your life.
Therefore, you have to put their needs first.
And friends at school having dogs that were
worried about unfamiliar people and we weren't allowed
(06:34):
to go in the kitchen.
That's where the dogs had their space.
All of that knowledge that somehow I think
has become diluted over the decades and we're
almost having to reteach people or teach people
information that was kind of, yeah, fundamental to
the way I connect with animals from a
(06:56):
really early age.
Do you think there was common knowledge for
your parents' generation or that was just your
parents were unique?
I don't know, but it was on both
sides of my family.
So that could be unique.
But like I was saying, I remember friends
at school who had somebody had a rescue
beagle and they knew he was super sensitive
to unfamiliar people.
(07:17):
And it wasn't something that, you know, we
felt we had a right to engage with
him.
He was in the kitchen and we weren't
allowed to go in the kitchen because was
his safe space and we didn't.
And so it wasn't just my family that
had this understanding.
And I was like obsessed by animals.
I was crazy from the earliest age.
(07:39):
I rode horses from the age of four
and I bought my first dog when I
was 11.
And I remember that first night with my
puppy and he was crying.
And that first night I knew that a
display or discovered that a displaced puppy sleeps
best tucked up against the body of their
new caregiver.
(08:00):
And a lot of that in a way
went against what was being taught in terms
of dogs not being allowed on the furniture,
not allowed in beds.
They'll take over the world if you sleep
with them.
You know, today I've never met a dog
that wants to rule the world.
And plenty of dogs that share spaces quite
comfortably with the people that help them feel
(08:21):
safe and content.
And we did go to puppy training classes
and we were given a choke chain, but
that ended up in the drawer pretty quickly.
And also he was a miniature Dachshund, Ryan.
He wasn't a dog that was ever going
to need controlling by a child, by giving
(08:43):
an aversive tool.
And I obviously, my parents weren't into that
at all.
So, so maybe there was something unique about
the way my parents viewed raising dogs and
raising children, because I think we were kind
of brought up with the same ethos.
(09:03):
And, and I remember that when I had
my children, you know, it was before reward
based training.
And I remember very clearly when my first
daughter was quietly playing with something, the desire
to go and catch up with other stuff,
you know, kind of life admin that has
to be done like laundry and organising shopping
and all of the stuff that takes you
(09:26):
away from spending time playing with your child.
And I remember overriding that need and that
desire to sort of catch up with stuff
and, and going and sitting and connecting with
her because I knew, and I guess that's
from my upbringing, that if I didn't engage
with her while she was actively engaged in
something that was rewarding for her, there was
(09:47):
a chance that she would then choose to
disengage from that meaningful activity in order to
try and connect with me.
So I was absolutely aware of reinforcing that
behaviour and joining her in her play and
her explanation, exploration, instead of trying to lead
(10:07):
that or taking advantage of the fact that
she was quietly engaged on her own.
So there must have been that element in
my upbringing as well, of reinforcing and rewarding
behaviour, rather than trying to stop behaviour that's
become difficult or challenging, if that makes sense.
And that's what we do with ACE, we
(10:29):
engage with the dog, we take their lead,
we join them in their activity in the
free work setup.
So I'm quite confident that most of my
inspiration came from my childhood, and it was
just kind of natural learning.
And I feel very lucky.
And I didn't really think about that until
(10:49):
people started to ask me what my learning
history was around behaviour.
And yeah, it goes right back to childhood,
I feel blessed.
So you actually have a good memory of
the first night your new dog at the
age of 11 stayed at home with you.
Yes, I have a very strong memory of
that.
I have very strong memories about lots of
(11:12):
really pivotal learning moments, even if I wasn't
aware at the time that it was a
pivotal learning moment, I was 11.
And I remember him just crying, crying, crying
in my bedroom.
And then me just getting out of bed
and picking him up, like didn't make sense
that he should have to sleep in a
basket and, you know, all the stuff that
people with knowledge were telling you was the
(11:34):
right way to raise a puppy.
And he always sat on the furniture with
us.
He was an amazing dog.
He lived until he was 20.
He was quite extraordinary.
He was raised by a Burmese cat as
well.
And I had to take him for a
walk first thing in the morning, every night
before I went to bed, and obviously during
the day, longer walks as well.
But I was dog obsessed, so I'd borrow
(11:55):
any other dog available in the neighbourhood where
we lived.
And I used to walk an amazing border
collie called Duffy, who was just extraordinary.
And he was always off lead.
And I lived near Epsom Downs, where one
of the big racehorses, Derby, is run.
So big open expanse.
And I was just free to roam with
(12:18):
dogs.
It was amazing.
And just being in awe at Duffy, this
border collie, hurtling off as the local running
club overtook me on the track, and kind
of bringing them back to me, successfully working
this group of local runners, who obviously weren't
(12:39):
very impressed that they were being worked by
an amazing border collie.
So yeah, that was another pivotal learning experience
that, yeah, okay, we need to be responsible
when we're out and take care and pay
attention to a dog's natural needs and drives,
because it might not be so beneficial for
other members of society.
And yeah, I had a life filled with
(12:59):
connecting with animals.
I was animal obsessed, crazy about art.
And all I would draw in art were
animals, horses, dogs, and points of the horse
on my wall as posters, the skeleton, learning
as much as I could.
But interestingly, that wasn't available for dogs.
(13:20):
So it wasn't that kind of learning that
we were exposed to as children that were
learning with horses.
There was a lot more anatomical knowledge.
If you rode horses, knowing the points of
the horse, what the skeleton looked like, saddle
fit, although it's very rudimentary, that knowledge during
my childhood, for sure.
You're learning all the different equipment and the
(13:41):
names of the equipment.
And that's something that struck me when I
was older, that that kind of knowledge wasn't
available.
So much later on, we started to integrate
canine anatomy in the courses that we were
hosting at Tilly Farm.
But that's later, much, much later.
So yeah, I mean, I also remember at
(14:02):
school, I loved most of their languages and
history and geography and biology was my favourite.
And nature was my favourite when I was,
you know, very small and studying nature class
and getting to draw pine cones and beetles
and hedgehogs and stuff like that.
But I remember a lot about the playground
(14:25):
during maths, because the teacher wasn't inspiring.
And so I spent a lot of time
looking out the window.
That was a very tedious class for me.
And again, I remember that vividly.
So I remember sort of challenging some of
the phrases that are used in canine education
about dogs being distracted.
(14:45):
And I was thinking, I wasn't distracted by
that external environment during maths.
I disengaged from the learning experience, because it
wasn't a meaningful and rewarding experience for me.
I disengaged.
And that's what I see in dogs.
I don't see them distracted.
I see them as disengaging from whatever the
caregiver might be inviting them to do.
(15:07):
Or they're hyper vigilant when they're out because
they don't feel safe in that environment.
So yeah, some really strong memories from childhood
100% influences how I think about canine
education and how I connect with animals from
a learning perspective as well.
So we've gone back to 11 and disengaged
(15:30):
Sarah in class at school, looking at the
playground.
Only during maths.
Only during maths.
Biology was my favourite subject too.
I love biology.
And then take us forward.
What happens next?
What are the next pivotal moments?
Do they happen after your teens, once you
finish school?
(15:50):
I mean, I've always been blessed to have
animals in my life.
But I suppose the next really big learning
experience was as a young adult.
And I had my first daughter when I
was 24.
And then a friend I'd met through a
(16:12):
mutual friend who was involved in acting, my
partner's an actor.
I became very good friends with this amazing
person, Cynthia.
And she had a daughter in between my
two daughters.
So her daughter, Erin, was born when I
think my first daughter was two.
(16:33):
And about a year before I had my...
No, my daughter must have been one.
And then Erin must have been born.
And then my second daughter arrived.
And this has to probably have a bit
of a trigger warning rhyme.
Actually, I'm going to talk about the death
of a child.
And I remember spending a lot of time
with Cynthia and Erin, with my two daughters
(16:54):
as well.
And we were really close.
And I also remember meeting Cynthia.
And I remember how clearly I remember what
she was wearing and what we were talking
about, and even what car she was driving.
And when I have those sort of moments
of real clarity, I kind of think, wow,
this person or this experience is going to
be really meaningful.
So anyway, we met.
(17:16):
And we had our daughters.
And we were close.
And I had this absolutely horrendous dream one
night that Cynthia's daughter died.
And it was such a shocking dream that
it catapulted me from those shrouds of sleep
into the early morning light.
My heart was pounding.
So I thought, is this something that's actually
(17:38):
happened?
And I couldn't wait to ring Cynthia.
Couldn't wait for 8 o'clock in the
morning to come.
It was a Sunday morning.
And I was desperate because the dream was
so vivid that I actually thought something had
happened to Erin that night.
And I phoned her at 8 o'clock
in the morning.
And she said, why are you ringing?
I said, oh, you know, I've been up
with Emily and Daisy.
(17:59):
And I was just thinking about you.
How are you?
How's Erin?
She said, oh, no, we're fine.
And we just carried on.
And I just pretended I'd been up for
a few hours and just thought I'd make
an early morning phone call to check in
with my friend.
And then many months later, I was woken
up about midnight by the phone ringing.
You know, we were kind of pre-mobile
things.
(18:20):
And I shot out of bed, answered the
phone.
And it was my friend Cynthia screaming, it's
Erin.
It's Erin.
It's Erin.
And she said, oh my God, what's happened?
And all I could think of was that
dream.
And she said, she's got a brain tumour.
I'm at Great Ormond Street Hospital.
And I knew then in that moment that
my dream was probably going to come true.
(18:40):
Of course, I never shared that with Cynthia.
And I went up and down to Great
Ormond Street Hospital.
Spent a lot of time.
She was a single parent.
Spent a lot of time visiting her while
Erin went through major brain surgery, chemotherapy, radiotherapy.
It was brutal.
She was 18 months old when she was
diagnosed with a brain tumour.
(19:01):
And at that moment, what can you do?
What can you say when someone is facing
the absolute worst?
There's nothing.
There's nothing you can do.
All you can do is be present.
All you can do is offer support.
And that's when I thought, you know, I'd
always wanted to work with animals.
But I didn't like any of the routes
(19:22):
that were available from a therapeutic point of
view.
If I was going to study animal physiotherapy,
I had to work in the human field
first.
I had to study human physio.
And I didn't really want to do that.
But bizarrely, while visiting Erin and Cynthia at
Great Ormond Street Hospital, I'm thinking, what can
I do?
What can you offer someone who's facing the
(19:43):
worst nightmare of their entire life?
Well, you can hold them.
You can touch them.
You can help them feel safe and connected
through massage.
So actually, although I was a bit hesitant
to study human modalities, I actually did go
and study human massage.
And I did a very in-depth course.
And it was an amazing course.
(20:04):
It was really light, gentle massage.
It was really looking at that link with
how much motion we hold in our body.
And there was another really pivotal learning experience
for me during that course, where we were
also looking at other modalities like muscle testing
to see if the food you eat and
(20:24):
other things that you might integrate into your
life are beneficial for you.
It was just an interesting exploration.
And I remember being partnered with this girl.
We knew each other.
We'd been turning up to the practical workshops
together for some time at this point.
So there was a degree of trust between
us.
And I was muscle testing her.
And whatever she was holding at the time,
(20:45):
I don't even really remember what it was.
Her arm was really weak when I was
testing the muscle strength while she was holding
whatever it was we were exploring.
And she completely broke down because there had
been a time in her life where she
hadn't had control over her body.
And I remember that so clearly.
(21:05):
I was maybe 27 at that stage, 26,
27, and thinking, my gosh, we really hold
the memory of everything in our body.
And that was a huge learning moment for
me and something that I 100% carried
into the animal world.
You never know what memories you might be
releasing.
(21:26):
And that also made me question some of
the discussions around displacement behavior, because one of
their explanations for displacement behavior is a behavior
that appears out of context.
But from my experiences, particularly from that moment
on that massage course, nothing's out of context
(21:47):
as far as the nervous system's concerned.
It's relevant to that individual experience.
And again, when people would talk about horses,
oh, it's a disproportionate response.
They'd say it about dogs.
But it isn't.
It's based on the experience of that individual.
And just because it's not something we can
understand doesn't mean it's not relevant and appropriate
(22:08):
for that individual being.
So I studied massage.
It was an amazing course.
I had an amazing experience with another guy.
I don't remember why I was connected with
this person.
I don't remember if it was part of
the course or just a shared experience with
someone that was going down a similar path.
I remember him doing some amazing body work
(22:28):
on me, particularly around my shoulders.
And I remember this feeling of lightness that
I hadn't had for a long time.
Because we all carry tension just through being
human.
And we all are on levels.
Nothing in nature is symmetrical.
And we're all one-sided.
And all those little anomalies become more exaggerated
as we age and carry children and go
(22:49):
through quite repetitive movement patterns through the course
of our life.
And for the first time, this guy was
really working in tiny detail, connecting to emotions
held in the body and stuff.
And it was amazing.
And afterwards, I just felt light.
And what's incredible is I can still connect
with that feeling of lightness.
So I was having all these extraordinary experiences.
(23:10):
And I remember walking through the corridors of
Great Ormond Street.
So I'd go in and I'd massage my
friend.
And I'd sit with other parents who were
sitting by the side of their children's bed.
And it was possible to offer a massage
then, because there was a parent's common room.
So we could hang out there and stuff.
(23:30):
And it was quite a meaningful experience for
me and for my friend, and hopefully for
some of the other parents, too.
Because you just don't need to talk.
There's nothing you need to say.
There's nothing you can say.
You can touch them and hold them if
they feel safe enough to have a stranger's
hands on their body.
And I remember walking through the corridors of
Great Ormond Street.
And my friend, Cynthia, would bump into me.
(23:54):
And I'd get sort of slowly pushed towards
the wall.
And I'd have to stop and step back
and move behind her and walk on her
other side.
And I remember thinking, gosh, you know, we
say horses are dominant and clumsy and rude.
And we have all these awful ways of
interpreting the behavior that we don't understand or
(24:14):
we take personally.
But actually, it's stress that's affecting the physical
balance.
It's emotional stress that's affecting the physical balance.
My friend's not dominant.
My friend's not clumsy.
She's just distraught.
And the emotional overload is impacting on her
ability to move and balance.
(24:34):
She's not trying to dominate me.
And that was another of all these amazing
experiences where really questioning a lot of the
belief systems.
You know, like I said, I started riding
when I was four.
And I had my first dog when I
was 11.
And you hear that kind of language from
people outside of my family that was in
complete contrast to how I'd been brought up,
(24:56):
but also a complete contrast to how I
viewed the world to all the stuff that
I was starting to learn from a human
therapeutic point of view.
And I remember as well having an amazing
friend visit.
She was an extraordinary woman.
And I drove her home after she'd been
spent the afternoon with me, Cynthia and Erin.
(25:18):
And I remember driving across Waterloo Bridge in
London.
And I said, do you have any feeling
about the outcome for Erin?
And she said, no, I can't connect.
I can't see outcomes and things like that.
And I said, you know what?
I know she dies.
And I said, but I still have hope.
(25:40):
And she said, my darling, she said, always
remember, even in death, there must always be
hope.
And that's something I've always carried with me
as well.
That whatever, however difficult something is, there is
always something we can do.
There is always the chance for a possible
peaceful outcome, regardless of what that outcome might
(26:00):
look like.
Anyway, fast forward, Cynthia did lose Erin.
She died.
And it was only then that I shared
my dream that I'd had.
I never told her before, because I never
wanted to say, I'm here supporting you, but
kind of think it's all in vain, because
(26:22):
she tried everything to save her child.
By then, I was learning more and more
stuff from the human field.
We'd moved from London down to Somerset.
We needed to leave London.
You start to look at life in a
very different way.
And Cynthia and Erin came and spent their
last Christmas together with us here in this
(26:44):
beautiful old house.
And I started to explore a bit of
Chinese medicine with an amazing acupuncturist.
And also through my amazing acupuncturist.
His name was Dave Pierce.
What a great name for an acupuncturist.
Took me on this amazing workshop with this
incredible Chinese doctor, Dr. Shen, who was absolutely
a master at movement.
(27:07):
And he knew that I rode horses and
I wasn't a human therapist in line with
all the other therapists who were trained acupuncturists.
He was fascinated by some of the principles
of traditional Chinese medicine, but also that I
connected with horses.
So he was relating everything back to animals
and the health of the spine.
(27:27):
And it was just adding more layers to
everything I'd learned from my human training in
massage.
So some of those principles I also carry.
The principles of deficiency and excess.
So when I see an excess behavior, maybe
a dog digging or needing to dissect toys
(27:52):
at a furious rate or maybe pulling on
the lead habitually or barking at passing cars,
we see that excess.
I don't try and influence that at all.
So I think as reward based trainers, we
have to be honest that we can suppress
behavior through reward based training as well.
(28:12):
I look for the deficiency.
Why does the dog need to move that
way?
Why does the dog need to respond that
way?
Why is the dog overwhelmed in that environment?
Why can't the dog find peace?
Why can't the dog find balance, emotional and
physical balance?
And when we find that deficiency and fill
that in, guess what?
That excess behavior naturally subsides.
(28:35):
So I was having all these extraordinary experiences
and Erin died and I shared with Cynthia,
obviously the dream and the outcome.
And I'm really glad I did because I
wasn't sure whether to ever share that, but
I'm really glad I did because a few
years later, Cynthia ended up living in France.
It was very difficult for her to rebuild
(28:57):
a life in a familiar environment without her
child.
She needed to change everything.
She lived on a boat for a while
in France and she phoned me and she
was really excited and she came back to
me and she came back and stayed with
us.
This house is such a welcoming space and
we obviously stayed in touch.
(29:17):
She was waiting to inherit some money.
It was just starting to come through, but
she had this dream and she said, I
had a dream about me last night.
She said, I don't.
I died.
She said, no, I'm sharing it with you
because of what you shared with Erin.
She said, and I am so excited because
I know it was more than a dream.
(29:38):
And she said, I dreamt I was in
this deep sleep and there was this alarm
going.
And I think maybe my boat gets loose
from its moorings and drifts out into maybe
a channel where there's bigger ships and maybe
it's an alarm from the ship bearing down
on my little boat.
But I'm in this deep sleep.
There's this alarm going and I know in
(29:59):
that moment I can be reunited with my
daughter or I can wake up and life
carries on.
And obviously she didn't need to tell me
what she had chosen in her dream.
I knew what she would have picked.
So anyway, so some months later I get
this phone call.
By now I'm working with animals.
My horse has come down from London living
(30:20):
here.
He has an injury.
I'm looking for a therapy that has the
same kind of approach from all the stuff
that I was learning about humans with regard
to animals.
And that's where I came across Tellington Touch
and the work of Linda Tellington Jones in
the middle of the 1990s.
And she was influenced by Feldenkrais.
(30:43):
So her work introduced me to the work
and concepts of Moshe Feldenkrais.
And the bodywork and the in-hand leading
exercises were life-changing for my horse.
I'd been on a very progressive yard with
my horses when we were in London.
So we had an equine dentist who certainly
wouldn't have had the skill sets that we
have available to us now through equine dental
(31:05):
technicians.
And we also had one of the only
veterinary physiotherapists for animals available who'd come and
treat the horses.
So I was utilizing that with my horse.
Got back in touch with the veterinary physio
who'd helped my other horses when we were
in London.
When my younger horse came down from livery
in London, we realized he actually had at
(31:26):
some point sustained a massive pelvic injury that
had somehow gone unnoticed.
He was living out.
And I don't blame the people at all
for missing it.
So we can't always spot injury.
So I wanted to find something that I
could do to be part of that rehab
as well.
So I went to America and learned body
work and some of the in-hand exercises
(31:47):
that were hugely beneficial for my horse.
And then while I was out there, and
well, I was actually, sorry, I was on
my way back from being out on one
of the courses and got this phone call
to say that Cynthia had fallen off the
back of a horse in France.
And she was unconscious in a hospital in
(32:09):
Rennes.
And that I was listed as her next
of kin.
And I needed to speak immediately to her
neurosurgeon.
So I phoned.
And at the moment that I rang, her
consultant was in her private room with her.
She was in a private room because the
injuries were so catastrophic.
(32:30):
And she was in a coma.
And her life support machine, I could hear
going off in the background.
And I just thought, that's the dream.
She's in a deep sleep.
There's an alarm going.
And she died.
And I discovered, much to my amazement, that
she'd left me the money she'd been waiting
to inherit because she'd obviously lost her child
(32:52):
and some other bereavements.
I don't want this to be like a
real heavy show, right?
And I really wanted that money to go
towards something that was of value to other
people.
I wanted to make something positive out of
a very distressing few years for her.
And that's where Tiddy Farm came into my
(33:15):
life in 2001.
We inherited this money.
And I actually felt really uncomfortable inheriting that
money.
I contacted some of her other relatives and
said that I didn't feel it was appropriate
for me to inherit this money.
And they were very kind and said, if
Cynthia wanted you to have it, we want
you to have it.
But it was something that I felt was
a gift.
(33:35):
And it wasn't something to be fritted away.
It had to be used for good.
It had to be something positive.
It had to provide the hope that is
always possible.
If we are able to do something meaningful
in a very difficult situation.
So that was the down payment on Tiddy
Farm.
(33:56):
And my amazing assistant, Shelley, has been a
part of my life for over 30 years.
She found this property a mile from where
we live, a mile from where our horses
were here at home.
And that became this amazing centre for learning
for people that wanted to connect with animals
in the way that I was learning to
(34:16):
connect with them and influenced hugely by my
interest in Chinese medicine, not just from a
deficiency and excess point of view, but from
really detailed observations.
And Linda Tellington-Jones had made that connection
of how you can influence behaviour by helping
the horse lower their head, for example.
(34:38):
There's a saying, if the horse is high
headed, they're high strung.
And actually, that's true.
It's indicative of the sympathetic nervous system being
engaged.
We see that in dogs as well.
You think about what that next position is
doing.
But because of my Chinese medicine interest and
fascination with the amount of detail they could
glean from looking at a person's colouring of
(34:59):
their skin under their eyes and the shape
of their tongue and the quality of the
saliva and the nails and hair and all
these amazing details that I had learned through
just exploring TCM through my amazing acupuncturist, I
was applying to the animals and I was
starting to see some unbelievable details that actually
(35:23):
were clear patterns that absolutely linked to quite
specific behavioural responses and discomfort.
And I started to volunteer at a local
shelter so that I could just watch dogs
more and to see where we could maybe
(35:44):
identify from improved observations how we could best
support animals that might be struggling.
And it was a dog named Sandy in
the late 1990s that switched me on to
coat patterns.
I probably need to give you the opportunity
to jump in.
Well, I'll take this opportunity just to say,
(36:07):
as a father, it hurts to hear the
stories that you just shared.
I can't even imagine the experience that you
shared and that Cynthia went through.
And I'm sorry for your loss of your
friend as well.
And thanks for bravely sharing that.
I was expecting you to burst into tears,
(36:30):
but I appreciate you sharing that and the
sense that it's something you've processed as much
as you can process that.
And talking about opportunities, it's not just something
that you process and it's actually become an
opportunity.
Yes, absolutely.
(36:51):
To, through processing, learn from, for one, and
then to take that money and do something
with, that's quite remarkable.
Tell us about Tilly Farm and what, can
I say, Erin's legacy is and Cynthia's legacy
is.
Thank you for your very kind words and
(37:12):
connecting.
Because, yeah, I mean, it's the worst, isn't
it?
Parents thought about living a child, it's just
beyond horrific.
And that's why, for me, it was really
important that we did something positive, because it's
never okay.
It's not about saying, oh, well, I'm glad
I had that experience because look at where
we are now.
(37:32):
It's not that, it's saying, my goodness, this
terrible thing has happened.
But that doesn't have to be how their
story ends.
It's a part of the beginning of other
stories for other people.
And that's a part of their story too.
And we kept looking for a property.
So saying, this has to, oh, sorry, I
(37:53):
just got my earpiece.
This has to go on something meaningful where
we can really improve lives of others and
help people and animals that are struggling.
We kept looking for property and nothing was
suitable.
And then, and I was just about to
give up and say, okay, well, we have
to invest the money.
We haven't found the right place.
Maybe we put it in investment for a
(38:14):
year because property prices are starting to go
up.
And I don't want to get to the
position where we can't find anything suitable.
I feel really passionate about finding a base
where we can offer these learning opportunities for
people.
And my amazing, amazing, amazing assistant, Shelly, said,
(38:36):
oh, she came into work.
She said, have you seen that place in
Farnborough, Tilly Farms?
I said, what?
I've driven past it every day on the
school run for years, Ryan.
Never noticed that.
And I said, let's go and see it.
So it was upscale.
Shelly and I went and it was a
terrible day.
The weather was appalling and we clambered over
rusty barriers to old, through old cow sheds,
(39:00):
low calf sheds that were really depressing.
And looking at, you know, just the amount
of work that was involved, we walked through
all these outbuildings and up this track.
And we turned and we looked at this
incredible view.
It's a 90 acre old dairy farm and
it has the most amazing atmosphere.
And it was pouring with rain.
And Shelly and I just looked at each
(39:21):
other and we just both went, this is
the place.
And in my head, I'm thinking it's insanity.
This is a financial suicide because what it
is and has been successfully isn't going to
be beneficial and conducive to what I am
looking to create and the work involved to
(39:43):
dismantle some of the buildings and planning and
converting some of them.
And, you know, it's huge.
It's immense.
It's going to be a lifetime project, but
it feels right.
It feels right that we found this place.
So I asked a friend of mine is
an amazing building contractor.
I said, look, I need you to go
and look at this property for me.
(40:03):
I need you to tell me I am
crazy to even think about taking it on.
Had a little three bedroomed farmhouse that had
been built in the 1950s, had stabling and
then had barns, but a dairy and a
lot of buildings that weren't appropriate.
And they'd have to come down in order
to create the teaching spaces that I kind
(40:25):
of envisaged.
And I said, I need you to tell
me that it's financial suicide.
It can never happen.
Not without a lot of money.
And tell me to walk away.
And he said, oh, sure, I'll go and
see it for you.
Of course I will.
And I remember him.
It was also pouring with rain when he
went to see.
I think it was a classic English spring,
constant rain.
(40:46):
I remember him falling through the door in
the kitchen here in this house.
And his hair was plastered to his face.
Water was running off his face.
And he said, I've seen the farm.
And I said, and he said, I love
it.
And I need somewhere to live.
So if you let me live in that
house, I'll help you build it up.
(41:06):
What can you say?
More connections.
You know, my life, Ryan, has been filled
with amazing connections.
And since he was killed in that riding
accident in France, the owner of the horse,
she fell off, it wasn't one of hers,
was just destroyed.
This older Breton gentleman who ran the local
tobacco, he was destroyed.
(41:27):
And I didn't speak French.
I've got some working knowledge of French from
school, but woefully inadequate, certainly not enough to
be able to say, please don't carry guilt.
She had a dream that this was going
to happen.
She's liberated from a lifetime of pain.
(41:49):
I really wanted to convey that to him.
And I happened to have a French student
staying with me that week that this awful
event happened.
And it was just, again, somebody said, oh,
we got a student.
And she can't get back from boarding school
to Switzerland because she has a horse here.
Would you be able to take her in
and her horse?
And I said, sure.
Just felt right to say yes and help
(42:10):
her.
Anyway, so how amazing was that?
So my life was full of all these
amazing connections.
And here was, you know, someone who's my
best friend saying, I need a place to
live and I will help build Tilly Farm.
And we've had it for 20, where are
we now?
20, 24 years.
Yeah, 25th year.
This is our 24th year.
(42:31):
And my best friend still lives there.
And he's helped create this amazing space.
But the atmosphere of Tilly Farm is quite
extraordinary.
And people come through the gate and they
just feel that they've come home.
And I hope we add to the feeling
of that incredible land.
But I don't feel we own it.
I just feel we're guardians of it.
And people, we've saved lives.
(42:52):
We've saved animal lives.
We've enhanced human lives.
The feedback we get, the friendships we've made,
people that we're still so close with decades
on, really has turned Cynthia and Erin's story
from one of tragedy and loss to something
(43:13):
incredibly empowering and rich and life changing for
so many people.
And obviously for me as well.
And I think of my friend every day.
Because without her and without Erin, we wouldn't
have that space.
And without her and without Erin, I wouldn't
have learned and discovered everything that I've learned
(43:36):
and discovered because we came to Somerset because
of connections that I had made through Cynthia
and Erin.
And that really did set me off on
this really incredible, enriching, empowering, mind-blowing life
experience.
And I just hope that I have many
(43:57):
more years where we can touch more lives
and meet more amazing people because every single
person I meet teaches me something.
Every single animal I meet teaches me something.
And all of those learning experiences 100%
influence how we connect with animals and people
(44:17):
through our courses.
And we run online courses, but we also
have practical workshops at Tilly Farm.
And the feedback is always the same.
What a unique and special, peaceful space it
is.
Well, I have more questions, but I just
feel like that is a great place to
leave it for episode one.
And then we can dive into episode two
to learn a little bit more about what
(44:39):
you do at Tilly Farm, what you offer
through your courses.
So let's leave it there with gratitude to
Cynthia and Erin.
And before we do that, can you just
share with those listening who want to learn
more about what Tilly Farm is and what
you offer, where they can go online to
find you?
(44:59):
Of course.
Yes, tillyfarm.org.uk. We have a list
of all our courses there, but we actually
also use www.
You probably don't even see that anymore, do
you?
It's showing my age.
Animalcentrededucation.com.
That's our online school.
And that's got the list of courses there
(45:20):
as well who do online only.
We do modules to become an ACE practitioner,
and we also do in-person at Tilly
Farm.
And if you want to learn some of
the techniques and become certified in ACE, you
know, the online element is a really fun
way to learn.
And that's with my co-instructor, colleague, Sarah
(45:45):
Whiffen.
She teaches the online element for part two
for the courses for people that can't get
to Tilly Farm for the practical, and she's
amazing.
You know, I've just met amazing people.
I'm lucky.
I'm blessed.
Well, for those listening, we're going to link
to all of us in the show notes.
And we will be diving into what ACE
(46:06):
is and what Sarah does and what you
can learn at Tilly Farm and through the
online courses more in episode two.
And you're not going to want to miss
that.
Sarah, this has been real.
And so gratitude to you for being willing
to share those parts of your life with
us on this episode.
(46:27):
And we really appreciate you coming on and
hanging out with us today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(46:47):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
keep improving.
(47:08):
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(47:30):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
(47:50):
We're here, cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where we
will talk to one Sarah Fisher.
Sarah is a canine and equine behavior advisor
with nearly 30 years of experience.
She co-founded Animal Centred Education, aka ACE,
(01:55):
alongside her two influential canine educators, Cookie, Doe,
Dynamo, and Henry.
Sarah teaches ACE courses for trainers, groomers, vets,
and animal behavior professionals, focusing on ACE observations,
ACE free work, gentle bodywork, and methods inspired
by animal welfare and education professionals.
(02:16):
ACE free work empowers dogs to become the
pilot of their learning experiences, allowing them to
reorganize their bodies more efficiently.
This method has been transformative for dogs of
all ages, helping them respond better to their
environment.
Sarah is experienced with a wide range of
breed types and has taught workshops for animal
(02:37):
welfare organizations, including Battersea, and in Europe, South
Africa, and several other countries.
She also delivers online courses, webinars, and presentations
at dog training and behavior seminars globally, including
the annual Dog Behavior Conference.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Sarah Fisher to the show
(02:59):
today, who is patiently waiting by literally on
the other side of the planet from me.
Sarah, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
at ATA.
Thank you so much for inviting me, Ryan.
It's an absolute pleasure to be here.
I'm super excited to share you with our
audience and get to learn a little bit
(03:20):
more about you today.
So let's dive straight in to the first
question, Sarah.
For this one, I love hearing about people's
behavioral odysseys, as I like to call them.
So I was hoping that you could take
me and the listeners back to where you
first started, where you first learned about animal
behavior, animal training, positive reinforcement, and share some
(03:44):
stories with us from your personal journey.
Wow, how long have we got, Ryan?
Well, you know, when people ask me about
that and I think about my first experiences
learning about some of the stuff I share
today, it actually goes right back to my
childhood.
And I was really lucky that I grew
up with family who valued animals as part
(04:08):
of the family.
And my paternal grandmother had rescued dogs.
She had two during my lifetime, so they
lived forever.
Two dogs, one called Peggy and one called
Susie.
And I remember as a child going to
visit with my sister and my parents, we
were not allowed to stare at the dogs.
We were to keep away from them, not
(04:29):
touch them.
And she would, my grandmother would sit with
them and they'd be by the side of
her chair.
And it was impressed on us that this
was their space.
And we didn't have any issue sort of
following that guidance.
So understanding that staring at dogs that can
be very intimidating and they're not there to
(04:49):
be touched because the human has the need
was an integral part of my childhood.
But then my mother's sister, my aunt had
a labrador called Kerry and he had a
hip issue.
I think he'd had an accident and he
had known arthritis in the left hip.
So we were allowed to stroke him.
He came up to us and we were
(05:10):
allowed to engage with him, but we were
absolutely not allowed to touch him on that
left hip.
And if we did, and he growled, we
were the ones that got into trouble for
not honoring the space that Kerry needed.
So all of that knowledge was just part
of my life with animals.
(05:31):
And we used to go on holiday to
Portugal and I would be adopted by some
of the community dogs.
And I have such amazing memories of spending
my summer holidays exploring rock pools in the
company of the community dogs while my sister
and my parents sunbathed on the beach.
(05:52):
And I didn't have food, reward-based training
wasn't a thing.
I didn't have any dog toys with me.
It was just the joy of a shared
space together and the joy of exploration.
And I'm sure that influences how I connect
with dogs today.
And so much of my childhood, I think
(06:12):
about all the lessons I learned, my father's
obsession about making sure all our animals had
access to fresh, clean water all the time.
Always saying, the animals didn't choose you.
You picked those animals to come and share
your life.
Therefore, you have to put their needs first.
And friends at school having dogs that were
worried about unfamiliar people and we weren't allowed
(06:34):
to go in the kitchen.
That's where the dogs had their space.
All of that knowledge that somehow I think
has become diluted over the decades and we're
almost having to reteach people or teach people
information that was kind of, yeah, fundamental to
the way I connect with animals from a
(06:56):
really early age.
Do you think there was common knowledge for
your parents' generation or that was just your
parents were unique?
I don't know, but it was on both
sides of my family.
So that could be unique.
But like I was saying, I remember friends
at school who had somebody had a rescue
beagle and they knew he was super sensitive
to unfamiliar people.
(07:17):
And it wasn't something that, you know, we
felt we had a right to engage with
him.
He was in the kitchen and we weren't
allowed to go in the kitchen because was
his safe space and we didn't.
And so it wasn't just my family that
had this understanding.
And I was like obsessed by animals.
I was crazy from the earliest age.
(07:39):
I rode horses from the age of four
and I bought my first dog when I
was 11.
And I remember that first night with my
puppy and he was crying.
And that first night I knew that a
display or discovered that a displaced puppy sleeps
best tucked up against the body of their
new caregiver.
(08:00):
And a lot of that in a way
went against what was being taught in terms
of dogs not being allowed on the furniture,
not allowed in beds.
They'll take over the world if you sleep
with them.
You know, today I've never met a dog
that wants to rule the world.
And plenty of dogs that share spaces quite
comfortably with the people that help them feel
(08:21):
safe and content.
And we did go to puppy training classes
and we were given a choke chain, but
that ended up in the drawer pretty quickly.
And also he was a miniature Dachshund, Ryan.
He wasn't a dog that was ever going
to need controlling by a child, by giving
(08:43):
an aversive tool.
And I obviously, my parents weren't into that
at all.
So, so maybe there was something unique about
the way my parents viewed raising dogs and
raising children, because I think we were kind
of brought up with the same ethos.
(09:03):
And, and I remember that when I had
my children, you know, it was before reward
based training.
And I remember very clearly when my first
daughter was quietly playing with something, the desire
to go and catch up with other stuff,
you know, kind of life admin that has
to be done like laundry and organising shopping
and all of the stuff that takes you
(09:26):
away from spending time playing with your child.
And I remember overriding that need and that
desire to sort of catch up with stuff
and, and going and sitting and connecting with
her because I knew, and I guess that's
from my upbringing, that if I didn't engage
with her while she was actively engaged in
something that was rewarding for her, there was
(09:47):
a chance that she would then choose to
disengage from that meaningful activity in order to
try and connect with me.
So I was absolutely aware of reinforcing that
behaviour and joining her in her play and
her explanation, exploration, instead of trying to lead
(10:07):
that or taking advantage of the fact that
she was quietly engaged on her own.
So there must have been that element in
my upbringing as well, of reinforcing and rewarding
behaviour, rather than trying to stop behaviour that's
become difficult or challenging, if that makes sense.
And that's what we do with ACE, we
(10:29):
engage with the dog, we take their lead,
we join them in their activity in the
free work setup.
So I'm quite confident that most of my
inspiration came from my childhood, and it was
just kind of natural learning.
And I feel very lucky.
And I didn't really think about that until
(10:49):
people started to ask me what my learning
history was around behaviour.
And yeah, it goes right back to childhood,
I feel blessed.
So you actually have a good memory of
the first night your new dog at the
age of 11 stayed at home with you.
Yes, I have a very strong memory of
that.
I have very strong memories about lots of
(11:12):
really pivotal learning moments, even if I wasn't
aware at the time that it was a
pivotal learning moment, I was 11.
And I remember him just crying, crying, crying
in my bedroom.
And then me just getting out of bed
and picking him up, like didn't make sense
that he should have to sleep in a
basket and, you know, all the stuff that
people with knowledge were telling you was the
(11:34):
right way to raise a puppy.
And he always sat on the furniture with
us.
He was an amazing dog.
He lived until he was 20.
He was quite extraordinary.
He was raised by a Burmese cat as
well.
And I had to take him for a
walk first thing in the morning, every night
before I went to bed, and obviously during
the day, longer walks as well.
But I was dog obsessed, so I'd borrow
(11:55):
any other dog available in the neighbourhood where
we lived.
And I used to walk an amazing border
collie called Duffy, who was just extraordinary.
And he was always off lead.
And I lived near Epsom Downs, where one
of the big racehorses, Derby, is run.
So big open expanse.
And I was just free to roam with
(12:18):
dogs.
It was amazing.
And just being in awe at Duffy, this
border collie, hurtling off as the local running
club overtook me on the track, and kind
of bringing them back to me, successfully working
this group of local runners, who obviously weren't
(12:39):
very impressed that they were being worked by
an amazing border collie.
So yeah, that was another pivotal learning experience
that, yeah, okay, we need to be responsible
when we're out and take care and pay
attention to a dog's natural needs and drives,
because it might not be so beneficial for
other members of society.
And yeah, I had a life filled with
(12:59):
connecting with animals.
I was animal obsessed, crazy about art.
And all I would draw in art were
animals, horses, dogs, and points of the horse
on my wall as posters, the skeleton, learning
as much as I could.
But interestingly, that wasn't available for dogs.
(13:20):
So it wasn't that kind of learning that
we were exposed to as children that were
learning with horses.
There was a lot more anatomical knowledge.
If you rode horses, knowing the points of
the horse, what the skeleton looked like, saddle
fit, although it's very rudimentary, that knowledge during
my childhood, for sure.
You're learning all the different equipment and the
(13:41):
names of the equipment.
And that's something that struck me when I
was older, that that kind of knowledge wasn't
available.
So much later on, we started to integrate
canine anatomy in the courses that we were
hosting at Tilly Farm.
But that's later, much, much later.
So yeah, I mean, I also remember at
(14:02):
school, I loved most of their languages and
history and geography and biology was my favourite.
And nature was my favourite when I was,
you know, very small and studying nature class
and getting to draw pine cones and beetles
and hedgehogs and stuff like that.
But I remember a lot about the playground
(14:25):
during maths, because the teacher wasn't inspiring.
And so I spent a lot of time
looking out the window.
That was a very tedious class for me.
And again, I remember that vividly.
So I remember sort of challenging some of
the phrases that are used in canine education
about dogs being distracted.
(14:45):
And I was thinking, I wasn't distracted by
that external environment during maths.
I disengaged from the learning experience, because it
wasn't a meaningful and rewarding experience for me.
I disengaged.
And that's what I see in dogs.
I don't see them distracted.
I see them as disengaging from whatever the
caregiver might be inviting them to do.
(15:07):
Or they're hyper vigilant when they're out because
they don't feel safe in that environment.
So yeah, some really strong memories from childhood
100% influences how I think about canine
education and how I connect with animals from
a learning perspective as well.
So we've gone back to 11 and disengaged
(15:30):
Sarah in class at school, looking at the
playground.
Only during maths.
Only during maths.
Biology was my favourite subject too.
I love biology.
And then take us forward.
What happens next?
What are the next pivotal moments?
Do they happen after your teens, once you
finish school?
(15:50):
I mean, I've always been blessed to have
animals in my life.
But I suppose the next really big learning
experience was as a young adult.
And I had my first daughter when I
was 24.
And then a friend I'd met through a
(16:12):
mutual friend who was involved in acting, my
partner's an actor.
I became very good friends with this amazing
person, Cynthia.
And she had a daughter in between my
two daughters.
So her daughter, Erin, was born when I
think my first daughter was two.
(16:33):
And about a year before I had my...
No, my daughter must have been one.
And then Erin must have been born.
And then my second daughter arrived.
And this has to probably have a bit
of a trigger warning rhyme.
Actually, I'm going to talk about the death
of a child.
And I remember spending a lot of time
with Cynthia and Erin, with my two daughters
(16:54):
as well.
And we were really close.
And I also remember meeting Cynthia.
And I remember how clearly I remember what
she was wearing and what we were talking
about, and even what car she was driving.
And when I have those sort of moments
of real clarity, I kind of think, wow,
this person or this experience is going to
be really meaningful.
So anyway, we met.
(17:16):
And we had our daughters.
And we were close.
And I had this absolutely horrendous dream one
night that Cynthia's daughter died.
And it was such a shocking dream that
it catapulted me from those shrouds of sleep
into the early morning light.
My heart was pounding.
So I thought, is this something that's actually
(17:38):
happened?
And I couldn't wait to ring Cynthia.
Couldn't wait for 8 o'clock in the
morning to come.
It was a Sunday morning.
And I was desperate because the dream was
so vivid that I actually thought something had
happened to Erin that night.
And I phoned her at 8 o'clock
in the morning.
And she said, why are you ringing?
I said, oh, you know, I've been up
with Emily and Daisy.
(17:59):
And I was just thinking about you.
How are you?
How's Erin?
She said, oh, no, we're fine.
And we just carried on.
And I just pretended I'd been up for
a few hours and just thought I'd make
an early morning phone call to check in
with my friend.
And then many months later, I was woken
up about midnight by the phone ringing.
You know, we were kind of pre-mobile
things.
(18:20):
And I shot out of bed, answered the
phone.
And it was my friend Cynthia screaming, it's
Erin.
It's Erin.
It's Erin.
And she said, oh my God, what's happened?
And all I could think of was that
dream.
And she said, she's got a brain tumour.
I'm at Great Ormond Street Hospital.
And I knew then in that moment that
my dream was probably going to come true.
(18:40):
Of course, I never shared that with Cynthia.
And I went up and down to Great
Ormond Street Hospital.
Spent a lot of time.
She was a single parent.
Spent a lot of time visiting her while
Erin went through major brain surgery, chemotherapy, radiotherapy.
It was brutal.
She was 18 months old when she was
diagnosed with a brain tumour.
(19:01):
And at that moment, what can you do?
What can you say when someone is facing
the absolute worst?
There's nothing.
There's nothing you can do.
All you can do is be present.
All you can do is offer support.
And that's when I thought, you know, I'd
always wanted to work with animals.
But I didn't like any of the routes
(19:22):
that were available from a therapeutic point of
view.
If I was going to study animal physiotherapy,
I had to work in the human field
first.
I had to study human physio.
And I didn't really want to do that.
But bizarrely, while visiting Erin and Cynthia at
Great Ormond Street Hospital, I'm thinking, what can
I do?
What can you offer someone who's facing the
(19:43):
worst nightmare of their entire life?
Well, you can hold them.
You can touch them.
You can help them feel safe and connected
through massage.
So actually, although I was a bit hesitant
to study human modalities, I actually did go
and study human massage.
And I did a very in-depth course.
And it was an amazing course.
(20:04):
It was really light, gentle massage.
It was really looking at that link with
how much motion we hold in our body.
And there was another really pivotal learning experience
for me during that course, where we were
also looking at other modalities like muscle testing
to see if the food you eat and
(20:24):
other things that you might integrate into your
life are beneficial for you.
It was just an interesting exploration.
And I remember being partnered with this girl.
We knew each other.
We'd been turning up to the practical workshops
together for some time at this point.
So there was a degree of trust between
us.
And I was muscle testing her.
And whatever she was holding at the time,
(20:45):
I don't even really remember what it was.
Her arm was really weak when I was
testing the muscle strength while she was holding
whatever it was we were exploring.
And she completely broke down because there had
been a time in her life where she
hadn't had control over her body.
And I remember that so clearly.
(21:05):
I was maybe 27 at that stage, 26,
27, and thinking, my gosh, we really hold
the memory of everything in our body.
And that was a huge learning moment for
me and something that I 100% carried
into the animal world.
You never know what memories you might be
releasing.
(21:26):
And that also made me question some of
the discussions around displacement behavior, because one of
their explanations for displacement behavior is a behavior
that appears out of context.
But from my experiences, particularly from that moment
on that massage course, nothing's out of context
(21:47):
as far as the nervous system's concerned.
It's relevant to that individual experience.
And again, when people would talk about horses,
oh, it's a disproportionate response.
They'd say it about dogs.
But it isn't.
It's based on the experience of that individual.
And just because it's not something we can
understand doesn't mean it's not relevant and appropriate
(22:08):
for that individual being.
So I studied massage.
It was an amazing course.
I had an amazing experience with another guy.
I don't remember why I was connected with
this person.
I don't remember if it was part of
the course or just a shared experience with
someone that was going down a similar path.
I remember him doing some amazing body work
(22:28):
on me, particularly around my shoulders.
And I remember this feeling of lightness that
I hadn't had for a long time.
Because we all carry tension just through being
human.
And we all are on levels.
Nothing in nature is symmetrical.
And we're all one-sided.
And all those little anomalies become more exaggerated
as we age and carry children and go
(22:49):
through quite repetitive movement patterns through the course
of our life.
And for the first time, this guy was
really working in tiny detail, connecting to emotions
held in the body and stuff.
And it was amazing.
And afterwards, I just felt light.
And what's incredible is I can still connect
with that feeling of lightness.
So I was having all these extraordinary experiences.
(23:10):
And I remember walking through the corridors of
Great Ormond Street.
So I'd go in and I'd massage my
friend.
And I'd sit with other parents who were
sitting by the side of their children's bed.
And it was possible to offer a massage
then, because there was a parent's common room.
So we could hang out there and stuff.
(23:30):
And it was quite a meaningful experience for
me and for my friend, and hopefully for
some of the other parents, too.
Because you just don't need to talk.
There's nothing you need to say.
There's nothing you can say.
You can touch them and hold them if
they feel safe enough to have a stranger's
hands on their body.
And I remember walking through the corridors of
Great Ormond Street.
And my friend, Cynthia, would bump into me.
(23:54):
And I'd get sort of slowly pushed towards
the wall.
And I'd have to stop and step back
and move behind her and walk on her
other side.
And I remember thinking, gosh, you know, we
say horses are dominant and clumsy and rude.
And we have all these awful ways of
interpreting the behavior that we don't understand or
(24:14):
we take personally.
But actually, it's stress that's affecting the physical
balance.
It's emotional stress that's affecting the physical balance.
My friend's not dominant.
My friend's not clumsy.
She's just distraught.
And the emotional overload is impacting on her
ability to move and balance.
(24:34):
She's not trying to dominate me.
And that was another of all these amazing
experiences where really questioning a lot of the
belief systems.
You know, like I said, I started riding
when I was four.
And I had my first dog when I
was 11.
And you hear that kind of language from
people outside of my family that was in
complete contrast to how I'd been brought up,
(24:56):
but also a complete contrast to how I
viewed the world to all the stuff that
I was starting to learn from a human
therapeutic point of view.
And I remember as well having an amazing
friend visit.
She was an extraordinary woman.
And I drove her home after she'd been
spent the afternoon with me, Cynthia and Erin.
(25:18):
And I remember driving across Waterloo Bridge in
London.
And I said, do you have any feeling
about the outcome for Erin?
And she said, no, I can't connect.
I can't see outcomes and things like that.
And I said, you know what?
I know she dies.
And I said, but I still have hope.
(25:40):
And she said, my darling, she said, always
remember, even in death, there must always be
hope.
And that's something I've always carried with me
as well.
That whatever, however difficult something is, there is
always something we can do.
There is always the chance for a possible
peaceful outcome, regardless of what that outcome might
(26:00):
look like.
Anyway, fast forward, Cynthia did lose Erin.
She died.
And it was only then that I shared
my dream that I'd had.
I never told her before, because I never
wanted to say, I'm here supporting you, but
kind of think it's all in vain, because
(26:22):
she tried everything to save her child.
By then, I was learning more and more
stuff from the human field.
We'd moved from London down to Somerset.
We needed to leave London.
You start to look at life in a
very different way.
And Cynthia and Erin came and spent their
last Christmas together with us here in this
(26:44):
beautiful old house.
And I started to explore a bit of
Chinese medicine with an amazing acupuncturist.
And also through my amazing acupuncturist.
His name was Dave Pierce.
What a great name for an acupuncturist.
Took me on this amazing workshop with this
incredible Chinese doctor, Dr. Shen, who was absolutely
a master at movement.
(27:07):
And he knew that I rode horses and
I wasn't a human therapist in line with
all the other therapists who were trained acupuncturists.
He was fascinated by some of the principles
of traditional Chinese medicine, but also that I
connected with horses.
So he was relating everything back to animals
and the health of the spine.
(27:27):
And it was just adding more layers to
everything I'd learned from my human training in
massage.
So some of those principles I also carry.
The principles of deficiency and excess.
So when I see an excess behavior, maybe
a dog digging or needing to dissect toys
(27:52):
at a furious rate or maybe pulling on
the lead habitually or barking at passing cars,
we see that excess.
I don't try and influence that at all.
So I think as reward based trainers, we
have to be honest that we can suppress
behavior through reward based training as well.
(28:12):
I look for the deficiency.
Why does the dog need to move that
way?
Why does the dog need to respond that
way?
Why is the dog overwhelmed in that environment?
Why can't the dog find peace?
Why can't the dog find balance, emotional and
physical balance?
And when we find that deficiency and fill
that in, guess what?
That excess behavior naturally subsides.
(28:35):
So I was having all these extraordinary experiences
and Erin died and I shared with Cynthia,
obviously the dream and the outcome.
And I'm really glad I did because I
wasn't sure whether to ever share that, but
I'm really glad I did because a few
years later, Cynthia ended up living in France.
It was very difficult for her to rebuild
(28:57):
a life in a familiar environment without her
child.
She needed to change everything.
She lived on a boat for a while
in France and she phoned me and she
was really excited and she came back to
me and she came back and stayed with
us.
This house is such a welcoming space and
we obviously stayed in touch.
(29:17):
She was waiting to inherit some money.
It was just starting to come through, but
she had this dream and she said, I
had a dream about me last night.
She said, I don't.
I died.
She said, no, I'm sharing it with you
because of what you shared with Erin.
She said, and I am so excited because
I know it was more than a dream.
(29:38):
And she said, I dreamt I was in
this deep sleep and there was this alarm
going.
And I think maybe my boat gets loose
from its moorings and drifts out into maybe
a channel where there's bigger ships and maybe
it's an alarm from the ship bearing down
on my little boat.
But I'm in this deep sleep.
There's this alarm going and I know in
(29:59):
that moment I can be reunited with my
daughter or I can wake up and life
carries on.
And obviously she didn't need to tell me
what she had chosen in her dream.
I knew what she would have picked.
So anyway, so some months later I get
this phone call.
By now I'm working with animals.
My horse has come down from London living
(30:20):
here.
He has an injury.
I'm looking for a therapy that has the
same kind of approach from all the stuff
that I was learning about humans with regard
to animals.
And that's where I came across Tellington Touch
and the work of Linda Tellington Jones in
the middle of the 1990s.
And she was influenced by Feldenkrais.
(30:43):
So her work introduced me to the work
and concepts of Moshe Feldenkrais.
And the bodywork and the in-hand leading
exercises were life-changing for my horse.
I'd been on a very progressive yard with
my horses when we were in London.
So we had an equine dentist who certainly
wouldn't have had the skill sets that we
have available to us now through equine dental
(31:05):
technicians.
And we also had one of the only
veterinary physiotherapists for animals available who'd come and
treat the horses.
So I was utilizing that with my horse.
Got back in touch with the veterinary physio
who'd helped my other horses when we were
in London.
When my younger horse came down from livery
in London, we realized he actually had at
(31:26):
some point sustained a massive pelvic injury that
had somehow gone unnoticed.
He was living out.
And I don't blame the people at all
for missing it.
So we can't always spot injury.
So I wanted to find something that I
could do to be part of that rehab
as well.
So I went to America and learned body
work and some of the in-hand exercises
(31:47):
that were hugely beneficial for my horse.
And then while I was out there, and
well, I was actually, sorry, I was on
my way back from being out on one
of the courses and got this phone call
to say that Cynthia had fallen off the
back of a horse in France.
And she was unconscious in a hospital in
(32:09):
Rennes.
And that I was listed as her next
of kin.
And I needed to speak immediately to her
neurosurgeon.
So I phoned.
And at the moment that I rang, her
consultant was in her private room with her.
She was in a private room because the
injuries were so catastrophic.
(32:30):
And she was in a coma.
And her life support machine, I could hear
going off in the background.
And I just thought, that's the dream.
She's in a deep sleep.
There's an alarm going.
And she died.
And I discovered, much to my amazement, that
she'd left me the money she'd been waiting
to inherit because she'd obviously lost her child
(32:52):
and some other bereavements.
I don't want this to be like a
real heavy show, right?
And I really wanted that money to go
towards something that was of value to other
people.
I wanted to make something positive out of
a very distressing few years for her.
And that's where Tiddy Farm came into my
(33:15):
life in 2001.
We inherited this money.
And I actually felt really uncomfortable inheriting that
money.
I contacted some of her other relatives and
said that I didn't feel it was appropriate
for me to inherit this money.
And they were very kind and said, if
Cynthia wanted you to have it, we want
you to have it.
But it was something that I felt was
a gift.
(33:35):
And it wasn't something to be fritted away.
It had to be used for good.
It had to be something positive.
It had to provide the hope that is
always possible.
If we are able to do something meaningful
in a very difficult situation.
So that was the down payment on Tiddy
Farm.
(33:56):
And my amazing assistant, Shelley, has been a
part of my life for over 30 years.
She found this property a mile from where
we live, a mile from where our horses
were here at home.
And that became this amazing centre for learning
for people that wanted to connect with animals
in the way that I was learning to
(34:16):
connect with them and influenced hugely by my
interest in Chinese medicine, not just from a
deficiency and excess point of view, but from
really detailed observations.
And Linda Tellington-Jones had made that connection
of how you can influence behaviour by helping
the horse lower their head, for example.
(34:38):
There's a saying, if the horse is high
headed, they're high strung.
And actually, that's true.
It's indicative of the sympathetic nervous system being
engaged.
We see that in dogs as well.
You think about what that next position is
doing.
But because of my Chinese medicine interest and
fascination with the amount of detail they could
glean from looking at a person's colouring of
(34:59):
their skin under their eyes and the shape
of their tongue and the quality of the
saliva and the nails and hair and all
these amazing details that I had learned through
just exploring TCM through my amazing acupuncturist, I
was applying to the animals and I was
starting to see some unbelievable details that actually
(35:23):
were clear patterns that absolutely linked to quite
specific behavioural responses and discomfort.
And I started to volunteer at a local
shelter so that I could just watch dogs
more and to see where we could maybe
(35:44):
identify from improved observations how we could best
support animals that might be struggling.
And it was a dog named Sandy in
the late 1990s that switched me on to
coat patterns.
I probably need to give you the opportunity
to jump in.
Well, I'll take this opportunity just to say,
(36:07):
as a father, it hurts to hear the
stories that you just shared.
I can't even imagine the experience that you
shared and that Cynthia went through.
And I'm sorry for your loss of your
friend as well.
And thanks for bravely sharing that.
I was expecting you to burst into tears,
(36:30):
but I appreciate you sharing that and the
sense that it's something you've processed as much
as you can process that.
And talking about opportunities, it's not just something
that you process and it's actually become an
opportunity.
Yes, absolutely.
(36:51):
To, through processing, learn from, for one, and
then to take that money and do something
with, that's quite remarkable.
Tell us about Tilly Farm and what, can
I say, Erin's legacy is and Cynthia's legacy
is.
Thank you for your very kind words and
(37:12):
connecting.
Because, yeah, I mean, it's the worst, isn't
it?
Parents thought about living a child, it's just
beyond horrific.
And that's why, for me, it was really
important that we did something positive, because it's
never okay.
It's not about saying, oh, well, I'm glad
I had that experience because look at where
we are now.
(37:32):
It's not that, it's saying, my goodness, this
terrible thing has happened.
But that doesn't have to be how their
story ends.
It's a part of the beginning of other
stories for other people.
And that's a part of their story too.
And we kept looking for a property.
So saying, this has to, oh, sorry, I
(37:53):
just got my earpiece.
This has to go on something meaningful where
we can really improve lives of others and
help people and animals that are struggling.
We kept looking for property and nothing was
suitable.
And then, and I was just about to
give up and say, okay, well, we have
to invest the money.
We haven't found the right place.
Maybe we put it in investment for a
(38:14):
year because property prices are starting to go
up.
And I don't want to get to the
position where we can't find anything suitable.
I feel really passionate about finding a base
where we can offer these learning opportunities for
people.
And my amazing, amazing, amazing assistant, Shelly, said,
(38:36):
oh, she came into work.
She said, have you seen that place in
Farnborough, Tilly Farms?
I said, what?
I've driven past it every day on the
school run for years, Ryan.
Never noticed that.
And I said, let's go and see it.
So it was upscale.
Shelly and I went and it was a
terrible day.
The weather was appalling and we clambered over
rusty barriers to old, through old cow sheds,
(39:00):
low calf sheds that were really depressing.
And looking at, you know, just the amount
of work that was involved, we walked through
all these outbuildings and up this track.
And we turned and we looked at this
incredible view.
It's a 90 acre old dairy farm and
it has the most amazing atmosphere.
And it was pouring with rain.
And Shelly and I just looked at each
(39:21):
other and we just both went, this is
the place.
And in my head, I'm thinking it's insanity.
This is a financial suicide because what it
is and has been successfully isn't going to
be beneficial and conducive to what I am
looking to create and the work involved to
(39:43):
dismantle some of the buildings and planning and
converting some of them.
And, you know, it's huge.
It's immense.
It's going to be a lifetime project, but
it feels right.
It feels right that we found this place.
So I asked a friend of mine is
an amazing building contractor.
I said, look, I need you to go
and look at this property for me.
(40:03):
I need you to tell me I am
crazy to even think about taking it on.
Had a little three bedroomed farmhouse that had
been built in the 1950s, had stabling and
then had barns, but a dairy and a
lot of buildings that weren't appropriate.
And they'd have to come down in order
to create the teaching spaces that I kind
(40:25):
of envisaged.
And I said, I need you to tell
me that it's financial suicide.
It can never happen.
Not without a lot of money.
And tell me to walk away.
And he said, oh, sure, I'll go and
see it for you.
Of course I will.
And I remember him.
It was also pouring with rain when he
went to see.
I think it was a classic English spring,
constant rain.
(40:46):
I remember him falling through the door in
the kitchen here in this house.
And his hair was plastered to his face.
Water was running off his face.
And he said, I've seen the farm.
And I said, and he said, I love
it.
And I need somewhere to live.
So if you let me live in that
house, I'll help you build it up.
(41:06):
What can you say?
More connections.
You know, my life, Ryan, has been filled
with amazing connections.
And since he was killed in that riding
accident in France, the owner of the horse,
she fell off, it wasn't one of hers,
was just destroyed.
This older Breton gentleman who ran the local
tobacco, he was destroyed.
(41:27):
And I didn't speak French.
I've got some working knowledge of French from
school, but woefully inadequate, certainly not enough to
be able to say, please don't carry guilt.
She had a dream that this was going
to happen.
She's liberated from a lifetime of pain.
(41:49):
I really wanted to convey that to him.
And I happened to have a French student
staying with me that week that this awful
event happened.
And it was just, again, somebody said, oh,
we got a student.
And she can't get back from boarding school
to Switzerland because she has a horse here.
Would you be able to take her in
and her horse?
And I said, sure.
Just felt right to say yes and help
(42:10):
her.
Anyway, so how amazing was that?
So my life was full of all these
amazing connections.
And here was, you know, someone who's my
best friend saying, I need a place to
live and I will help build Tilly Farm.
And we've had it for 20, where are
we now?
20, 24 years.
Yeah, 25th year.
This is our 24th year.
(42:31):
And my best friend still lives there.
And he's helped create this amazing space.
But the atmosphere of Tilly Farm is quite
extraordinary.
And people come through the gate and they
just feel that they've come home.
And I hope we add to the feeling
of that incredible land.
But I don't feel we own it.
I just feel we're guardians of it.
And people, we've saved lives.
(42:52):
We've saved animal lives.
We've enhanced human lives.
The feedback we get, the friendships we've made,
people that we're still so close with decades
on, really has turned Cynthia and Erin's story
from one of tragedy and loss to something
(43:13):
incredibly empowering and rich and life changing for
so many people.
And obviously for me as well.
And I think of my friend every day.
Because without her and without Erin, we wouldn't
have that space.
And without her and without Erin, I wouldn't
have learned and discovered everything that I've learned
(43:36):
and discovered because we came to Somerset because
of connections that I had made through Cynthia
and Erin.
And that really did set me off on
this really incredible, enriching, empowering, mind-blowing life
experience.
And I just hope that I have many
(43:57):
more years where we can touch more lives
and meet more amazing people because every single
person I meet teaches me something.
Every single animal I meet teaches me something.
And all of those learning experiences 100%
influence how we connect with animals and people
(44:17):
through our courses.
And we run online courses, but we also
have practical workshops at Tilly Farm.
And the feedback is always the same.
What a unique and special, peaceful space it
is.
Well, I have more questions, but I just
feel like that is a great place to
leave it for episode one.
And then we can dive into episode two
to learn a little bit more about what
(44:39):
you do at Tilly Farm, what you offer
through your courses.
So let's leave it there with gratitude to
Cynthia and Erin.
And before we do that, can you just
share with those listening who want to learn
more about what Tilly Farm is and what
you offer, where they can go online to
find you?
(44:59):
Of course.
Yes, tillyfarm.org.uk. We have a list
of all our courses there, but we actually
also use www.
You probably don't even see that anymore, do
you?
It's showing my age.
Animalcentrededucation.com.
That's our online school.
And that's got the list of courses there
(45:20):
as well who do online only.
We do modules to become an ACE practitioner,
and we also do in-person at Tilly
Farm.
And if you want to learn some of
the techniques and become certified in ACE, you
know, the online element is a really fun
way to learn.
And that's with my co-instructor, colleague, Sarah
(45:45):
Whiffen.
She teaches the online element for part two
for the courses for people that can't get
to Tilly Farm for the practical, and she's
amazing.
You know, I've just met amazing people.
I'm lucky.
I'm blessed.
Well, for those listening, we're going to link
to all of us in the show notes.
And we will be diving into what ACE
(46:06):
is and what Sarah does and what you
can learn at Tilly Farm and through the
online courses more in episode two.
And you're not going to want to miss
that.
Sarah, this has been real.
And so gratitude to you for being willing
to share those parts of your life with
us on this episode.
(46:27):
And we really appreciate you coming on and
hanging out with us today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(46:47):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
keep improving.
(47:08):
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(47:30):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
(47:50):
We're here, cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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