December 2, 2024 • 63 mins
In this insightful episode of the Animal Training Academy Podcast, Ryan Carledge is joined by the esteemed Dr. Christy Alligood-Rice, a leader in the field of behavior analysis. Dr. Alligood-Rice brings over 20 years of experience and a unique perspective, blending the science of behavior with the practice of animal training, particularly through her work at Disney’s Animal Kingdom and in academic roles at the University of Kansas.
Together, Ryan and Dr. Alligood-Rice explore one of the most challenging aspects of animal training: navigating team dynamics while implementing best practices for behavior change. They dive deep into how organizational culture, individual learning histories, and social reinforcers can either support or hinder progress in training environments such as zoos, animal shelters, veterinary clinics, and beyond.
Dr. Alligood-Rice emphasizes the importance of understanding both human and nonhuman learners, discussing how culture and leadership can influence behavior and training outcomes. Whether you’re facing resistance to change, navigating difficult team dynamics, or striving to implement new systems, this episode provides valuable strategies for creating sustainable, positive change in animal care settings.
What You'll Discover in This Episode:
- The role of organizational culture in shaping animal care and training practices.
- How team dynamics and social reinforcers affect the implementation of behavior change.
- Strategies for overcoming resistance to change in animal care environments.
- The importance of celebrating small wins and focusing on gradual progress in training.
- How to navigate the complexities of working with both human and animal learners.
Why This Episode is a Must-Listen:
Dr. Alligood-Rice offers practical insights for anyone working in animal care environments, helping listeners understand the human elements that influence training success. Whether you're in a leadership role or part of a team, this episode is packed with strategies for fostering collaboration, improving training practices, and enhancing the welfare of the animals in your care.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm excited
to welcome back to the podcast, the fantastic
Dr. Christy Alligood.
Dr. Alligood is an associate professor at the
University of Kansas and a doctoral level board
(01:54):
certified behavior analyst with 20 years of experience
in this field.
She began her career with human operant research
and has worked extensively in various settings to
support children with challenging behaviors.
For over 16 years now, Dr. Alligood has
also applied her expertise to enhance animal welfare
through cooperative training, environmental enrichment, and behavior change
(02:18):
strategies, all contributing to wildlife conservation efforts at
Disney's Animal Kingdom.
She has received notable awards for her work,
including the Bean Award for Significant Achievement in
Captive Breeding.
And in addition to her academic role, Dr.
Alligood serves as a consultant on Dr. Susan
Friedman's behavior works team.
(02:39):
She teaches a range of undergraduate and graduate
courses and frequently presents at conferences on behavior
analysis and animal training practices.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Christy back to the show
today.
Christy, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
again on the show.
(03:00):
Oh, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm excited about this.
I feel like this is an episode we've
needed to make since we started this show,
because it's going to talk about a topic
that addresses a significant hurdle for many of
you, our wonderful podcast listeners.
And that is challenges that can arise when
working in a team environment within an organization
(03:22):
and striving to enhance the use of best
practice tools and knowledge around animal behavior and
training.
And recently, when I spoke with Susan about
this topic, Christy, she suggested that it would
be great to have you on the show
to discuss this with me.
So again, thank you for agreeing to this.
And for you, the listener, this might be
(03:43):
something you're currently facing or perhaps it's something
you've encountered in the past.
It's such a common challenge, especially when there
is some kind of resistance to change within
the organization.
And resistance to change may stem from various
factors, could be related to organizational culture, the
(04:03):
availability of resources such as time, money, skills,
or specific personalities and individuals, including their mindsets,
perspectives, and attitudes.
Additionally, if management doesn't seem on board with
facilitating change, this can make things extremely challenging,
as that support may be and often is
(04:26):
necessary to implement significant improvements.
There's a whole range of reasons why this
might be challenging for you, and often it's
likely more than one reason.
And these challenges can arise anywhere.
In zoos, animal shelters, training businesses, horse facilities,
veterinary clinics, basically anywhere animals are cared for
(04:47):
can be incredibly stressful, frustrating, emotionally draining, and
leave one feeling helpless.
And in many situations, it can even result
in decisions to leave roles, to leave organizations,
because it all just becomes too much.
Christy, before we go on, is there anything
you'd like to add about this challenge?
Do you think I've summed the problem up
(05:09):
adequately?
I think you summed it up really well.
I was just thinking, as you were mentioning
all those different examples of settings in which
animals are cared for, that the other thing
they all have in common is that people
work in all of them, and that's where
some of these challenges come from.
(05:29):
And we can talk more about that, but
I think that's really some of the crux
of what we'll talk about today.
So it's all behavior change, but potentially in
some situations maybe a reframe, not sure if
that's the right word to say, a new
perspective in terms of what species we're trying
(05:50):
to change behavior in could be valuable, and
I'm excited to talk about that today.
So I've prepared some questions in advance.
We asked our members what they would like
to hear about on this topic, and I've
come up with some additional questions as well
based on my own experience.
Christy, I've tried to organize them in a
logical fashion, but we might jump around between
(06:10):
a few topics and ideas, and of course
my questions may change based on your answers.
But with all that said, let's get started,
and I want to start with culture, organizational
culture.
Could you offer, when I say that, could
you offer your perspective in your words what
that means?
(06:30):
How important is it in implementing change, and
how can it support or in the efforts
to implement new practice?
Yeah, I think that's a great place to
start, and we're really in sync on this
because as I was looking at the question
about culture, I was thinking, well, we have
(06:51):
to start by defining what is culture.
So really, I think from a behavior analytic
perspective, and by that I mean we have
this assumption that behavior is a natural science,
and it's governed by natural laws, and we
can learn about those laws through scientific methods.
(07:12):
So from that perspective, we can talk about
culture as the behavior of a group of
people who have some relationship to each other.
So it could be an organization, it could
be a neighborhood, some group of people, and
typically when we're talking about culture, we're talking
about the behaviors of a group of people
(07:34):
over time.
So there are things that become, that are
repeated over time in that group, and I
think that can be a useful way to
think about it in organizations, just to take
a step back and think about when you,
sometimes when we say the word culture, it
(07:54):
feels really big and complex, and it can
be, but we can also, if we think
about it in that way, as it's a
collection of behaviors that this group of people
engage in, then we can start to look
at those behaviors a little bit more specifically
and more individually, and then it, as we
(08:15):
break it up, it maybe becomes a little
bit more approachable in terms of the changes
that we might want to make.
And then I think the other piece of
your question was the importance of culture to
an organization and to making the changes that
we want to see sometimes in an organization,
(08:36):
is that right?
Yeah, so how important is what you've described
in implementing change and then how it supports
or hinders efforts.
But before we move on, can I just
pick your brain a little bit about that
definition you've offered and build on it a
(08:56):
little bit?
I think that might be helpful for our
listeners.
We talked about the behavior of a group
of people who have some relationship with each
other over time, and it's interesting to think
about behavior in a group context, because we're
so used to thinking about it at the
individual level, which understandably, and tell me if
(09:17):
I'm wrong, we're still doing in this space.
But with that definition, the behavior of a
group of people who have some relationship with
each other over time, is there some reinforcers
that become commonly accepted?
How do we think about this behavior of
a group versus behavior of an individual?
Yeah, that's such a great question, because when
(09:41):
we talk about culture that way, and you
talk about the behavior of a group, we're
not moving away from our idea that behavior
is a study of one, right?
Because that group is made up of individuals.
So it really, at the end of the
day, it is always individuals behaving.
It's just that there is a, even if
(10:01):
it's just one animal care team, right?
One animal care team can have a culture.
And by that, we mean the things that
they typically do on that team, you know,
and do over time.
But it's all individuals that are doing those
things.
It's not really that like the group doesn't
(10:23):
behave, the individuals in the group behave in
similar ways.
And on the topic of reinforcers, I think
this is a really interesting thing to get
into for this whole topic.
And one of the things that is really,
well, really the main thing that's really different
(10:44):
when we start talking about human behavior versus,
you know, what we're typically talking about in
training and thinking about reinforcers for animals is
that when we move into talking about humans,
we start talking about verbal behavior and verbal
communication.
And that opens up a whole other world
of consequences that can impact behavior that you
(11:10):
don't really have in the same way when
you talk about animals.
And so not that animals can't also have
social consequences that are important to them.
But when you bring the verbal element into
it, that brings a lot of additional pieces.
And so many times that verbal social element
(11:30):
is a really important set of consequences to
consider when we're talking about culture.
I'm assuming reinforcers and punishes.
Yes.
That's why I say consequences.
Definitely both of those things are in play
and negative reinforcers and negative punishes.
Yeah.
All the things.
(11:51):
And how do we think about that?
My brain is coming up with the words
social reinforcers.
Can you articulate this better for me?
What are these reinforcers and punishes?
Yeah, sure.
So some examples that we might think about
would be, you know, a lot of us
positive social attention from people that are in
(12:15):
our environment is a big reinforcer to one
extent or another.
And then also many of us to one
degree or another would also like to avoid
or escape confrontational type interactions with the people
around us.
(12:36):
And so I would characterize that as a
negative reinforcer, a social negative reinforcer.
So those are, I think those are two
big examples, particularly in organizational environments where, you
know, those positive attention type interactions, both with
our coworkers and with our leaders and with
(12:59):
people from other organizations can be a really
powerful, positive reinforcer.
And then avoiding those, those more confrontational or
sort of negative interactions can be or escaping
them can be a really, it can also
be a very positive, I'm sorry, a very
powerful negative reinforcer.
(13:20):
Yes.
I'm thinking about an example of, of sitting
in a team meeting and I won't obviously
say where or who was there.
So it's a real life situation, but I'm
not going to name anything or anyone.
And there was a behavioral challenge that this
team was talking about.
There was a, I would label it as
(13:42):
limited amount of behavioral or applied behavioral analysis
knowledge in the group.
And there was suggestions and labels being thrown
around and then the comment, well, let's not
change anything because we've always done it this
way.
And so why change it?
(14:02):
And as an individual sitting there, if I
speak up, did I speak up a little
bit against what I was sensing was a
little bit of group consensus.
And, but I'm sitting there with this knowledge
that is making me really perceive things differently.
And it's really challenging.
And so I'm trying to avoid that confrontation,
(14:25):
maintain relationships.
That's a really challenging space to be in,
isn't it?
It is.
And it, there's all kinds of, you know,
when we're training animals and we think about
their reinforcement history, their learning history.
So what they bring to the session and
how that impacts, you know, their behavior during
the session, we could think about that team
(14:45):
meeting the same way.
What's the learning history of everybody that, you
know, that's in that room that they've brought
into that conversation.
And the learning history of that group might
be that when you speak up against sort
of the group consensus, that there are social
punishers involved in that interaction.
(15:07):
And that learning history might prompt you to,
you know, have that sort of conflict that
you're talking about, where you think, well, I,
I'm not going to speak up because I
don't want to risk that confrontation.
And there's that avoidance piece we were talking
about.
Well, I think it's important because I want
to get to the second part of my
question, obviously, but I think it's important if
(15:29):
you're a listener and listening to this and
you're thinking that I had a situation that
shares similarities in some way to what Ryan's
talking about, or I can completely relate to
what Christy's saying and the challenges.
Firstly, I just want to point out a
couple of things, Christy.
You, the listener, are not alone.
This is something that occurs in animal training
(15:51):
organizations, but just organizations in general.
And it's not easy to think about all
of those individual learners in that space, those
human learners and what their learning history is
and what their reinforcers and punishers are and
what your relationships and the motivating operations are
for everyone.
There's a lot to process.
(16:13):
And so take a breath and be easy
on yourself because you're doing a great job
if you're here listening to this podcast.
I'm really glad you said that.
And I think too, I love that you
said go easy on yourself because the fact
that we're saying, you know, that this is
a, that could be avoidance response to avoid
(16:36):
the confrontation doesn't mean that, I mean, we're
not necessarily being critical of that response, right?
It's just a way of sort of describing
what that, the behavior principles behind that response
and some ways to think about that.
But it doesn't mean that you have to
take it upon yourself to be the person
that runs toward confrontation in every meeting.
(17:01):
No, definitely, definitely not.
And that can have a big toll on
you.
So you gotta look after yourself and juggle
that.
And again, it's not easy.
And by talking about these things in this
episode, and that's easier to do than to
be in place and say, so we're just
acknowledging that.
(17:22):
Now, I think considering what you've shared so
far and what we've talked about, for the
listener, there's probably some obvious things about how
important this is and how it can support
or hinder efforts.
But in your words, can you answer that
part now?
How important is this in implementing change and
how can it support or hinder efforts to
(17:44):
implement new practices?
Yeah, I think you're right.
The listeners probably can see where I'll go
with this.
But I do think that culture is hugely
important to this set of questions.
And so something for leaders and supervisors, and
also those who are not in that position,
(18:07):
but just want to sort of think carefully
about this.
Something to consider is that there are at
least a couple of different ways to go
about trying to impact change in an organization
and improve practices, which is I think what
we're all trying to do with the changes
that we're trying to put in place.
(18:29):
So one way is for leaders in the
organization, supervisors to sort of decide what is
best for the organization, for everyone in it,
and then just communicate what that is and
the expectation that it needs to be done.
And sometimes that can be successful.
(18:50):
And that's particularly true when it's something, when
it's a change that's smaller or simpler to
implement, and it's easy for everyone to understand
the rationale for it.
But when we're trying to build strategies, like
putting a new system in place or making
a major change to training practices, it can
(19:11):
be really beneficial to involve staff at several
different levels of that process.
And I think you have listeners that would
be at various levels of that process.
And we all know what it feels like
to want to be involved no matter what
(19:32):
level we're at in terms of having input
in how changes are made and how they're
implemented.
And gathering that input usually, and using it
in the planning, can be, can really be
the difference between a change that sort of
dies on the vine and it doesn't get
(19:54):
fully implemented or sustained in the long-term,
and a change that grows and blooms and
is maintained over time.
So those are the kinds of changes that
we want to make to organizations, right?
If we think we've got a new practice
that's really going to be beneficial to the
organizations and the animals in our care, we
(20:15):
want that change to be sustained over time.
And so that process of bringing in input
from different levels of the organization involves thinking
about that culture piece.
It involves thinking about the behavior of different
individuals and different sort of groups of individuals
(20:35):
in the organization and what kinds of consequences
and what kinds of antecedents, which we can
talk about too, are important to all of
those groups of people.
So yes, big considerations there.
You say there are a couple of different
(20:56):
ways to implement change and improve practices.
And thinking about what that looks like, we
are talking about the behavior change of individual
humans across all of those teams and in
all of the different roles of the organization.
And I juggle in my mind about how
(21:18):
to best articulate that because it can, I
think, come across as overwhelming when you think,
okay, I've got to train an animal.
This is how I do it.
I know how it works.
And I know how many variables can come
up and where I've got stuck in the
past.
And now I've got to implement that with
human learners across the whole organization.
(21:41):
And that's a lot of pressure to put
on yourself.
So again, my articulation of this is passion
thinking on the spot, not well thought out.
I had this question to ask later, but
it seems relevant to ask now, Chrissy.
If you're someone in an organization and you
listen to this podcast, you listen to the
(22:01):
Animal Training Academy podcast show, you absorb information,
you see areas for practice, you're conscious of
the culture there and where the hurdles and
opportunities are.
But considering you're going to make behavior change
with so many different individuals, what steps can
the listeners take to stay focused on celebrating
(22:23):
progress?
Because behavior change takes time.
We know that.
Without becoming overwhelmed by the bigger picture, because
if we just let our mind focus on
that end goal, without all of the approximations
that are required from where you currently are
to that space to get there, it can
quickly become quite overwhelming.
(22:43):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think there are a couple of different
pieces that I heard in there, but the
piece about how to stay focused, I think
what my mind goes to is tracking.
Just like if we were thinking about in
(23:05):
animal training, if we want to be able
to celebrate those successive approximations, then we have
to track our progress and our animals' progress.
The same thing applies here that we want
to have really clear goals.
But as you said, if you're really just
(23:26):
focused on that end goal, sometimes it's hard
to sustain that momentum to get there.
It's good to have some intermediate goals, some
successive approximations to be able to celebrate when
you hit those targets and be also know
when to pivot if a strategy is not
(23:48):
quite having the effect that we wanted.
It's stalling and we need to pivot to
something else.
Having those approximations in place can help us
to do both of those things.
I'm just trying to think of an example
and seeing if we can put this into
a real-life situation.
I'll throw one at you, Chrissy.
(24:08):
I apologize for putting you on the spot
and apologize for my on-the-spot thinking.
Feel free to interject at any time where
you feel like there's possible value in reframing
anything that I offer.
Let's say we're in a zoo environment.
We've got an educational demonstration for visitors that
(24:31):
requires trained animals.
You're in a team situation.
One of the animal's behaviors has started to
break down and you come up with a
plan to remedy that.
There is mixed levels of knowledge in the
team with regards to how behavior works.
(24:54):
Some team members aren't implementing the strategy as
you think you have talked about.
You're feeling a little bit overwhelmed by what
you perceive as the culture and your communication
skills, relationships.
(25:18):
You want to tackle this because this is
something that you can see that's recurring.
What kind of goals might the listener of
the show set for themselves in a situation
like this?
Yeah, what a great question.
I think some of that comes down to
thinking about...
Part of the challenge is that there are,
(25:40):
as you said, those differing levels of understanding
of behavior principles and you're trying to work
from that foundation.
It can come down to, I know I
need to have a conversation with this other
person.
Maybe it's a leader or maybe it's a
teammate.
(26:01):
What is my goal for this conversation?
That can be a first question.
Is my goal to convince this other person
that my plan for this is the right
plan?
Is my goal to find some kind of
common ground for this person so that we
can start to build a relationship?
Those would be long-term versus short-term
(26:25):
examples.
Maybe your ultimate goal is to affect some
change through the type of plan that you
think would be effective.
If you don't have a good foundational relationship
with the person to begin with, then an
intermediate goal might be, my goal for this
(26:46):
conversation is just for us to find some
common ground so that we can move forward
from that perspective.
Maybe the next conversation is, let's find a
small action that we can agree on that
comes out of that common ground.
You can make those approximations from there.
(27:09):
That way, again, it helps to be able
to celebrate after those conversations, celebrate those small
successes when they occur and also when they
don't occur to think, oh, that was something
I need to think more about and think
about what I want to do differently next
time to try to get to that next
(27:31):
approximation.
I feel hesitancy in saying what I'm going
to say next because I just feel like
I'm a broken record because I feel like
podcast episodes just always come back to crucial
conversations and whether it's that book or a
(27:51):
similar piece of content that's from different authors
or different content creators that likely are saying
very similar things, but it comes back to
building that skill in yourself and building some
new behaviors in yourself.
Also, consistently putting on your behavior glasses or
(28:14):
your behavior hat.
If you have the goal of, okay, I
don't have the best relationship with, let's say,
one of these individuals in this situation that
I just put forward and my goal, therefore,
is to put some deposits in my trust
account, we'll operationalize what that looks like for
(28:35):
your individual situation and then you go forward
into the conversation and achieve your goal.
It's challenging, isn't it, because the stuff that's
happening with the non-human learner and the
educational display isn't necessarily going to change.
Is it a hurdle for some individuals to
(29:00):
get over to be able to shift focus
momentarily onto the human learners?
I think so.
It's understandable because we all got into this
because we care about the animal's quality of
life and we want to make the best
(29:23):
improvements that we know how to make.
We have those ideas and it seems like,
well, we could just change this thing and
it would make things better.
It's hard not to really push for those
things and to fall back on those strategies
that we already know, which are explaining and
(29:47):
delivering information and saying, well, this is why
we should do this.
It's completely understandable.
We also know from lots of behavior evidence
that delivering information in that way is not
(30:07):
always successful, is often not successful at creating
behavior change and creating action.
One thing to think about when that is
hard, because it is often hard, is that
I think we set up a false choice
for ourselves sometimes when we think about, well,
I can either push for this change right
(30:29):
now and get this animal's quality of life
improved or get this presentation improved or whatever
the goal is, or I can take a
step back and think about what would I
need to do in order to really build
this change in a sustainable way over time.
Maybe that involves building a relationship and it
might take longer.
(30:50):
The reason I say it's a false choice
is because when we fall back on that
known historical behavior of pushing for that change,
it may make things worse actually, and it
may not create the quality of life improvement
(31:13):
that we want for the animal.
It may not be a choice between immediate
change and long-term change.
It may be a choice between long-term
change and either no change or partial change
or something similar.
Thank you for sharing all of this.
This is super helpful.
(31:34):
Just to pivot just a little bit, staying
on the topic of culture and thinking about
everything we've discussed so far and some of
the other valuable considerations, in my personal opinion,
when thinking about the kind of culture we
want to create and the words growth mindset
(31:59):
come to mind, the words learning, the words
safety.
So safe to make mistakes and learn from
those mistakes.
How do we work towards a growth mindset
within an organization?
(32:19):
Someone asked this in our membership, Christy, which
is why I'm asking this now and struggling
to articulate it in the way that I
know that I want to articulate it.
For example, which was offered in our Facebook
group, members-only Facebook group, a team may
initially embrace positive reinforcement training practices.
(32:42):
So you might get this excitement in the
team, this acknowledgement that other zoos, other organizations,
other vet clinics are doing fear-free, other
zoos are implementing training programs.
We're going to do that too.
But then to maintain that, you need all
(33:04):
of those elements of culture I just mentioned
and the willingness to keep evolving and improving.
Any input you have for those listening in
terms of listening to this podcast, thinking about
culture, incorporating that in their thoughts so far
about any changes that they, the listener wants
to make?
(33:24):
Yes.
And I think there's kind of two parts
of this topic.
So I want to, and one of them
you already mentioned, and I want to come
back to, because there's, I think there's a
lot on that, which is having your behavior
analyst hat on and thinking about perspectives.
So we can come back to that one.
(33:45):
But I think from the standpoint of thinking
about those kinds of cultural goals that you
were just mentioning, like having a growth mindset
as part of the culture and having the
culture feel safe to make mistakes and having
that collaborative environment.
(34:07):
A lot of that comes down to what
we sort of started with, which was when
we talk about culture, what is our definition
of that?
And in behavior analysis, we talk about operational
definitions, right?
So how do we, when we have a
label like this, what are we labeling?
(34:28):
What is the behavior that we're looking for
specifically?
And with these kinds of things, with cultural
things, there can be a couple of levels
of this, right?
When we talk about, well, we want to
have a growth mindset.
A question that we can ask is what
would it look like if we had a
growth mindset?
What are the kinds of things that our
team would be doing?
(34:48):
What are the kinds of practices that we
would have in place that we would follow?
And how would we interact with each other
if we had a growth mindset?
And that you can sort of start the
process that way, and that can sort of
roll into some strategies and some actions that
(35:10):
you can take to start to move towards
some of those things.
So you can kind of do it at
this, in an organization, a lot of times
we would work through an infrastructure at multiple
levels, we would talk about our values, and
then the vision for the organization, and then
the mission, and then the strategies, and then
the actions.
(35:31):
And I think growth mindset probably would fall
under values as for an organization, and then
you can sort of move through those levels.
I sort of went straight from values to
strategies there, right?
Like what would it look like if we
had this?
And then the next question would be, what
(35:52):
sort of actions can we take as a
team in order for these behaviors that we're
identifying to occur regularly and sustainably on our
team?
So that's one part of it is thinking,
really breaking it down.
We also talk about it in behavior analysis
as a task analysis.
(36:13):
So when we have a behavior or a
set of behaviors that we want to teach,
or that we want to ensure that that
behavior continues, we break it down into its
component parts and think about what does this
really look like, and what order does it
need to happen in?
(36:34):
And then we make sure that we are
tracking whether those things are happening.
So that's kind of a perspective on that
piece.
And then I know that also for many
of your listeners, they want to think about,
I'm assuming, they want to think about culture
and how to strategize around some of these
(36:57):
changes.
And also they're asking questions about, well, if
I'm not personally in the position to affect
these changes for the organization, I'm not in
a supervisor role, I'm not in a leadership
role, then what do I do?
How do I, if I have ideas for
changes that I think would be really helpful
(37:18):
for the organization, how do I, as someone
two steps down from a leadership position, how
do I go about that?
So again, I think it's important to, I'm
just going to say this again, it's so
important to think about this idea that just
(37:40):
explaining the change that we want to make
and why we want to make it is
often not going to be effective.
And the reason for that is, and you
can think about maybe a time when listeners,
you can think about a time when someone
has tried to explain why you should do
something differently and it was not effective and
(38:01):
why was it not effective?
And it's likely because of the contingencies that
are in place on your behavior, right?
There are other reasons why you do things
the way that you already do them.
And someone explaining to you why you should
do it differently is often not going to
be enough to override those reinforcers and punishers
(38:23):
that are already in place that produced your
behavior.
Now, the same is true of our leaders
in organizations.
So often we'll go to them and we'll
say, I really think that we should implement
this change and I think it would be
beneficial for the animals, I think it'd be
beneficial for our team and here's why.
And it may not even be that the
(38:45):
leader necessarily disagrees with the idea, it may
just be that there are other contingencies in
place that are stopping that idea from, or
stopping that leader from taking action to implement
your desired change.
And so the thing I want to talk
about in terms of putting your ABA hat
(39:07):
on is thinking about, is doing a little
bit of perspective taking, right?
So thinking about things from that leader's perspective.
And often we forget to do this because
we get so excited about the behavior analysis
portion of caring for animals and learning about
that and implementing it to improve their lives
(39:30):
that we forget that all the people around
us have those same kinds of behavior principles
impacting their behavior.
And so with someone in a leadership position,
some things to think about for perspective taking
would be what kinds of pressures are being
(39:51):
placed on that individual in terms of job
expectations?
Are there things that make their job harder
and what are those things?
What kinds of, we could try to identify
individual's reinforcers just by observing their behavior, right?
(40:12):
So is this a person who likes to
avoid conflict?
Is this a person that likes a lot
of social attention or not?
Those kinds of things and trying to, and
again, some of that is about relationship building
and learning about other people and what's going
on in their lives.
So yeah, and then another thing is the
(40:37):
degree or like extent of information that a
leader needs to have in order to make
a change.
So sometimes they need a lot of information
and we can talk about what form that
might take.
And sometimes they just need a little bit.
So it's, again, it's learning that over time.
(40:58):
And then the other piece that we often
forget about is sometimes we think about those
things from the consequence side, like what are
this person's reinforcers and punishers, but we forget
about the antecedent side of the ABC sequence,
right?
So are there things, if I'm requesting a
(41:19):
certain action towards change, like for example, if
I want to, if I want approval for
funding for some learning opportunity for individuals on
my team to be able to learn something
about behavior principles, what can I do to
make that requested change easier?
(41:41):
What can I do to make it easier
for this leader to say yes?
And that's going to vary depending on their
challenges and the expectations on them and all
of those circumstances, but that's why it's important
to do that perspective taking and do that
relationship building and try to kind of gather
some of that information so that you can,
(42:02):
again, bring it into your crucial conversations and
try to use that to build towards the
changes that you're looking to make.
Yeah, I love that.
It reminds me of something I learned at
Wellington Zoo when I worked there.
They had a form you could fill out
when you wanted to request to do a
(42:23):
project.
And one of the questions on that form
was, what are the risks associated with this
project?
And then the next question was, how would
you mitigate these risks?
And then there was a question, something along
the lines of how would you report that?
And I just found it so helpful in
getting projects approved after I learned that, because
(42:45):
you take that to a manager and firstly,
they're like, well, I've literally had a manager
say to me, no one's ever done that
before.
Like pre-thought of all of the risks
and then came up with solutions to those
risks and then told me how they were
going to report back to me.
And it just got approvals for me.
That was part of a package of things
(43:07):
that got approval.
So I really love that.
And then I'm just sharing some stories because
I think they're cool.
Yeah, that's great.
What would it look like if we had
a growth mindset?
When I work with teams and we're in
a team environment and we're doing portal or
maybe we're doing some training, we do a
lot of training with horses and then dogs
with zoo teams and chickens to build some
(43:30):
skill with some, what I would label as
easier animals and some of the animals that
they're going to be tasked with within their
collections.
And in the team environment, when we have
a trainer bravely doing some training in front
of their peers, we go around in a
circle and everyone points out something that that
individual did that they liked and something that
(43:51):
the animal did that they liked.
And then they ask a question as well
of that person.
They get curious.
And what I love about that is just
watching it happen.
And but to the feedback from that is
that's one of the favorite parts of the
day is learning these new skills about how
(44:13):
to give feedback.
And I appreciate that if that's one of
the favorite parts and there's reinforcers involved for
these skills in this context.
So that's something that came to mind when
you asked a great question.
What would it look like if we had
a growth mindset?
Also, listeners of this show, you should be
really grateful for Christy because I'm just going
(44:34):
off on tangents and I sent Christy a
list of questions.
And when I'm asking her my tangent questions,
she's bringing it straight back to the list
of questions that we had agreed to talk
about.
So express gratitude for Christy for being an
awesome guest and on to it in that
way.
Now, Christy, another question that we got from
our members thinking about when you're in an
(44:56):
organization, whether it's a training business, a vet
clinic.
I know we had some questions from people
working in a horse context.
So within organizations where they're training horses or
zoos and you're not in a leadership position
and you have this information and it's maybe
(45:17):
contrary.
You want to do things slightly differently to
the way things are being done.
And I've had this question from keepers as
well when they say, you know, I want
to just do some training and I hope
that people will see what I'm doing and
they'll get curious and we can build growth
that way.
Just throw that at you, Christy.
(45:38):
What does it make you think?
What are some effective ways for someone to
model better practices when they're not in a
leadership position and input is not formally requested
from them or change is not formally requested?
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think, I mean, you kind of
hit it on the head there already with
(45:59):
the modeling, right?
So if that's where you can start, you
know, you sort of have to think about
what can I control in this situation.
And if your own behavior is what you
can control, then you can model those best
practices.
And then if input is not formally being
requested or there's no sort of system in
(46:21):
place to give input or to make suggestions,
then it likely will be down to some
of that relationship building that we talked about
in order to be able to start to
find some common ground and agree on some
actions.
(46:41):
And to be clear when, you know, we're
talking about sort of doing that cultural change
planning, like thinking about how do we develop
a growth mindset?
How do we make this a safe place
to make mistakes?
And then thinking about what would that look
like and all of that, you know, individuals
(47:02):
can do some of that, right?
Can think about, well, what would a growth
mindset look like?
And it might look like some of the
things that you just mentioned, Ryan, which is,
and that's a great way to think about
that is, you know, sort of talking, you
know, talking to other people who are in
these positions about, well, I'd really like to
help my team develop a growth mindset.
(47:24):
What are some actions that you've either taken
or that some practices that you've experienced that
have been successful in that?
So I really love the one that you
talked about with basically, you know, celebrating successes
and getting curious.
So if we say those are two things
(47:45):
that would be really important to a growth
mindset, this is a part, this is a
daily practice that promotes that, that's been successful.
That's something that, you know, as an individual,
you could just pick that one action and
see if you can kind of plant that
seed with, you know, the individuals that you
do have relationships with and try to, you
(48:07):
know, get that ball rolling.
And it could even be that you just
start with one other person that you celebrate
those successes with each other and get curious
with each other.
Maybe it doesn't even start with the whole
team or the whole organization.
It just starts with one other person.
And then you kind of build it from
there.
And that's, it really is just about continuing
to think about what you can control at
(48:29):
that moment and what you have influence over
and trying to build it from there.
Just take that next step that you can.
I'm torn because I've got so many things
I want to talk about, but appreciate we've
been going for nearly 15 minutes now.
So I'm aware of the time, everyone.
And I just want to, before I miss
(48:50):
the opportunity, give credit to Sarah Owings, a
US-based dog trainer and now cow trainer
doing an amazing job training her whole herd
of cows and wonderful teacher of human beings
who helped bring that idea.
I call it the Sarah Owings rubric of
how we process and what actions we can
(49:15):
take after we've just done a training session
or watched someone else do a training session.
So kudos to Sarah Owings for those questions
I shared earlier.
So in the interest of time, we had
more questions.
I'm going to try to wrap them up
into one question.
So I'm going to bring up multiple things,
put them under an umbrella and see if
we can efficiently, quickly answer that.
(49:39):
So there are times in a zoo context,
so you're an enthusiastic keeper or enthusiastic employee
in a zoo clinic or trainer in an
organisation you've just joined, and you're asked to
do things in your role.
(49:59):
And they conflict, you get some dissonance in
your mind about, this doesn't feel aligned with
my understanding of what's best for the animal
in this situation, but I've got these consequences
from my team of either doing or not
doing these things.
(50:19):
I can see that, I've listened to Christie
and Ryan, and I can see that, okay,
to get behaviour change here, it's going to
take time.
I've got to focus on the approximations required
of all of the human individuals involved.
And in the meantime, I need to continue
to do what's being asked of me in
(50:41):
my role, with my job description, in my
organisation.
So some examples that I've thought about from
my time in zoos is handling reptiles specifically,
no choice given, aversives.
I would just use my judgment to say
that the animals did not enjoy, without getting
(51:03):
too technical, what was happening there.
But you have to be at a certain
place, at a certain time, with an animal
in your hand.
Or someone offered the example in our membership
of working with horses in disability programmes, where
the movement of the horses is important for
the rehabilitation of the client, but that's not
(51:26):
necessarily always what's best for the horse.
Can you just share some thoughts, Christie?
Because we've talked about the culture, we've talked
about the approximations required, the antecedents and consequences,
we've put it all in behaviour jargon, but
we've still got to show up to work
tomorrow and process what's being asked of us.
(51:47):
And we've decided we're going to stick it
out.
How can we best navigate getting through this
period?
Yeah, I think that can be, you've identified
something that can be really challenging.
And that conflict, that misalignment between what we
think is best and what's being asked of
(52:09):
us.
And I think that it comes down to
a judgment call about what each of us
is comfortable with, saying yes to and for
how long.
And that will be an individual thing.
I think what I would want listeners to
(52:32):
know is that when we talk about these
strategies for sort of bottom-up change, where
you're doing this perspective taking with leaders, and
you're building relationships with your co-workers and
all of those things, that's not to say
that there might not come a point in
(52:55):
your relationship with an organization where you decide
that what you're being asked to do is
no longer acceptable, and it's just not a
good fit for you, and you move on
to another opportunity.
That could be also something that is within
your control that you decide to do in
order to make effective change in animals' lives.
(53:16):
And that's perfectly fine.
And I don't want anybody to feel like
it would be a failure if they made
that decision rather than sticking it out and
continuing to do things that are misaligned with
their ethics.
So I think in a lot of cases,
it's probably going to fall somewhere in between.
(53:38):
Somewhere in between the extreme of, well, I'm
willing to say yes to what I'm being
asked to do indefinitely, even if no change
ever happens, and the extreme of, I am
quitting tomorrow because this is no longer acceptable.
It'll probably be somewhere in the middle for
a lot of people.
And so it might consist of a process
that looks like trying to identify what you
(54:01):
can control and taking some of the steps
that we've talked about, and then having a
personal limit at some point of if what
you're being asked to do is seriously misaligned
with what you think is the best practices
for quality of life of the animals in
your care, that there's a limit to how
(54:22):
long you'll say yes to it, and that's
as it should be.
Yeah, I think that's a really great way
of articulating that, being in the relationship where
you feel like you're going to say yes
indefinitely to something that's unsustainable.
And I just want to also wrap up
(54:44):
on this, Christy, and get your thoughts.
Again, for the listeners of the show, I'll
share a personal story.
I remember, Christy, when I first learned about
Crucial Conversations, and I was in an organization
where there were some things that I thought
were disrespectful being aimed at me, but I
(55:05):
didn't think it was being done with malice.
And I knew that I liked the individual,
and I knew that they were there for
the same reason that I was there, because
they love the job, and they love the
animals, and they wanted what's best.
And so I sat down and went through
(55:27):
some of the questions that are offered by
the book Crucial Conversations, answered them, and used
those answers to frame a conversation with this
person.
Christy, it felt so uncomfortable doing these behaviors
that I'd never done before, and not knowing
(55:48):
what the consequences were going to be.
So I just want to say for everyone
listening, I want to share gratitude for listening
today.
And I think you're entering into a conversation
where it takes vulnerability, and it takes courage.
And I just want to honor the listeners,
Christy, and acknowledge them for just being here
(56:12):
and listening, and if they put some of
this into action in any way, shape, or
form, just honor that vulnerability and courage.
Absolutely.
I'll join you in that for sure.
It's not easy to do.
And as we kind of opened up with
that verbal behavior aspect that gets added when
(56:34):
you're working with humans can make things, sometimes
it makes things easier, right?
Because sometimes we wish we could talk, we
could have a conversation with an animal in
the way that we do with a person.
But sometimes it makes things a lot more
complicated and a lot more difficult, because it
introduces a whole other category of important consequences.
(56:57):
So reinforcers and punishers for us and for
all of the people around us.
And so what you just described about it
being difficult to engage in some of those
new behaviors in a conversation is part of
that, those verbal social reinforcers and punishers that
(57:18):
just they do, they're real and they can
make things feel really hard.
And so, yes, I will join you in
celebrating any small approximation or step into the
pool that anyone takes under this umbrella.
(57:38):
Well, I could just keep going and going
but I'm not going to.
I think we've shared a valuable amount in
the time that we've had to share it.
But I am going to ask Christy to
share her availability as well.
(57:59):
If you have any questions or if you
have any thoughts or if you want to
share anything, you can reach out to me
at Animal Training Academy at any time.
And Christy, for those who might be interested
in hearing more of your perspectives or asking
questions or exploring your services and what you
(58:19):
can offer them if they're in an organization
and an organization is open to getting external
help, where can people go to find out
more about you, what you do, BehaviorWorks, the
work of Susan and get in touch with
me?
Sure.
So the BehaviorWorks website is behaviorworks.org and
there's a lot of information there.
And I can tell you about a few
(58:40):
of the things that I'm involved with for
outside health for organizations, just email me directly
at caa at behaviorworks.org.
And then the sort of ongoing opportunities that
I'm involved with include a course called How
(59:00):
Research Works and that's for animal professionals who
really want to be evidence-based in their
work but maybe don't have the background in
understanding, you know, peer-reviewed literature on behavior
research and want to get some of that
foundation so that they can access that literature
(59:22):
and use it in their work.
So that's an eight-week course we're just
finishing up around right now.
There will be another one in the spring
so there'll be an opportunity then.
I also run a journal reading group and
that is held once a month and we
do three-month sessions and each three-month
session has a different theme that we focus
(59:43):
on for those three months.
So right now our focus is on reinforcer
assessments and this is the last one for
2024 and I have not set the topics
for 2025 yet and I would welcome suggestions
from new participants for those suggestions.
That is a really fun group to be
a part of.
It typically includes behavior analysts who work with
(01:00:07):
both animals and sometimes even people and then
lots of different kinds of animal professionals as
well and so we get a lot of
great differing perspectives on the things that we
read which is really fun.
And then another piece to that work at
BehaviorWorks is our career connections section of the
(01:00:29):
website that you can look at and that
includes a couple of different things.
One of them is just a consult with
me which is essentially just a conversation that
I gather some information from the individual beforehand
but it's a conversation about their educational goals
and or their career goals and what steps
(01:00:50):
they might take next to try to get
towards those goals.
So that's really fun too.
So lots going on at BehaviorWorks and any
questions about any of that folks can email
me directly.
Wonderful and we will of course link to
all of this in the show notes as
well so you can view the listener in
(01:01:12):
whatever app you're listening to the song can
find links to that information about everything Christy
just shared in the show notes.
Christy this has been so much fun so
from myself and on behalf of everyone listening
and all of the learners human and non
-human learners that the listeners will go out
and work with and have a positive impact
(01:01:32):
on we really appreciate you taking the time
to come and hang out with us today.
Thank you so much.
My pleasure.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(01:01:53):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches learn from them and
keep improving and don't forget the path to
(01:02:16):
growing your skills and expanding your knowledge continues
beyond this episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
just like you.
Together we're making a huge positive difference in
(01:02:39):
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time keep honing your skills stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
(01:03:00):
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm excited
to welcome back to the podcast, the fantastic
Dr. Christy Alligood.
Dr. Alligood is an associate professor at the
University of Kansas and a doctoral level board
(01:54):
certified behavior analyst with 20 years of experience
in this field.
She began her career with human operant research
and has worked extensively in various settings to
support children with challenging behaviors.
For over 16 years now, Dr. Alligood has
also applied her expertise to enhance animal welfare
through cooperative training, environmental enrichment, and behavior change
(02:18):
strategies, all contributing to wildlife conservation efforts at
Disney's Animal Kingdom.
She has received notable awards for her work,
including the Bean Award for Significant Achievement in
Captive Breeding.
And in addition to her academic role, Dr.
Alligood serves as a consultant on Dr. Susan
Friedman's behavior works team.
(02:39):
She teaches a range of undergraduate and graduate
courses and frequently presents at conferences on behavior
analysis and animal training practices.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Christy back to the show
today.
Christy, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and hang out with us
again on the show.
(03:00):
Oh, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm excited about this.
I feel like this is an episode we've
needed to make since we started this show,
because it's going to talk about a topic
that addresses a significant hurdle for many of
you, our wonderful podcast listeners.
And that is challenges that can arise when
working in a team environment within an organization
(03:22):
and striving to enhance the use of best
practice tools and knowledge around animal behavior and
training.
And recently, when I spoke with Susan about
this topic, Christy, she suggested that it would
be great to have you on the show
to discuss this with me.
So again, thank you for agreeing to this.
And for you, the listener, this might be
(03:43):
something you're currently facing or perhaps it's something
you've encountered in the past.
It's such a common challenge, especially when there
is some kind of resistance to change within
the organization.
And resistance to change may stem from various
factors, could be related to organizational culture, the
(04:03):
availability of resources such as time, money, skills,
or specific personalities and individuals, including their mindsets,
perspectives, and attitudes.
Additionally, if management doesn't seem on board with
facilitating change, this can make things extremely challenging,
as that support may be and often is
(04:26):
necessary to implement significant improvements.
There's a whole range of reasons why this
might be challenging for you, and often it's
likely more than one reason.
And these challenges can arise anywhere.
In zoos, animal shelters, training businesses, horse facilities,
veterinary clinics, basically anywhere animals are cared for
(04:47):
can be incredibly stressful, frustrating, emotionally draining, and
leave one feeling helpless.
And in many situations, it can even result
in decisions to leave roles, to leave organizations,
because it all just becomes too much.
Christy, before we go on, is there anything
you'd like to add about this challenge?
Do you think I've summed the problem up
(05:09):
adequately?
I think you summed it up really well.
I was just thinking, as you were mentioning
all those different examples of settings in which
animals are cared for, that the other thing
they all have in common is that people
work in all of them, and that's where
some of these challenges come from.
(05:29):
And we can talk more about that, but
I think that's really some of the crux
of what we'll talk about today.
So it's all behavior change, but potentially in
some situations maybe a reframe, not sure if
that's the right word to say, a new
perspective in terms of what species we're trying
(05:50):
to change behavior in could be valuable, and
I'm excited to talk about that today.
So I've prepared some questions in advance.
We asked our members what they would like
to hear about on this topic, and I've
come up with some additional questions as well
based on my own experience.
Christy, I've tried to organize them in a
logical fashion, but we might jump around between
(06:10):
a few topics and ideas, and of course
my questions may change based on your answers.
But with all that said, let's get started,
and I want to start with culture, organizational
culture.
Could you offer, when I say that, could
you offer your perspective in your words what
that means?
(06:30):
How important is it in implementing change, and
how can it support or in the efforts
to implement new practice?
Yeah, I think that's a great place to
start, and we're really in sync on this
because as I was looking at the question
about culture, I was thinking, well, we have
(06:51):
to start by defining what is culture.
So really, I think from a behavior analytic
perspective, and by that I mean we have
this assumption that behavior is a natural science,
and it's governed by natural laws, and we
can learn about those laws through scientific methods.
(07:12):
So from that perspective, we can talk about
culture as the behavior of a group of
people who have some relationship to each other.
So it could be an organization, it could
be a neighborhood, some group of people, and
typically when we're talking about culture, we're talking
about the behaviors of a group of people
(07:34):
over time.
So there are things that become, that are
repeated over time in that group, and I
think that can be a useful way to
think about it in organizations, just to take
a step back and think about when you,
sometimes when we say the word culture, it
(07:54):
feels really big and complex, and it can
be, but we can also, if we think
about it in that way, as it's a
collection of behaviors that this group of people
engage in, then we can start to look
at those behaviors a little bit more specifically
and more individually, and then it, as we
(08:15):
break it up, it maybe becomes a little
bit more approachable in terms of the changes
that we might want to make.
And then I think the other piece of
your question was the importance of culture to
an organization and to making the changes that
we want to see sometimes in an organization,
(08:36):
is that right?
Yeah, so how important is what you've described
in implementing change and then how it supports
or hinders efforts.
But before we move on, can I just
pick your brain a little bit about that
definition you've offered and build on it a
(08:56):
little bit?
I think that might be helpful for our
listeners.
We talked about the behavior of a group
of people who have some relationship with each
other over time, and it's interesting to think
about behavior in a group context, because we're
so used to thinking about it at the
individual level, which understandably, and tell me if
(09:17):
I'm wrong, we're still doing in this space.
But with that definition, the behavior of a
group of people who have some relationship with
each other over time, is there some reinforcers
that become commonly accepted?
How do we think about this behavior of
a group versus behavior of an individual?
Yeah, that's such a great question, because when
(09:41):
we talk about culture that way, and you
talk about the behavior of a group, we're
not moving away from our idea that behavior
is a study of one, right?
Because that group is made up of individuals.
So it really, at the end of the
day, it is always individuals behaving.
It's just that there is a, even if
(10:01):
it's just one animal care team, right?
One animal care team can have a culture.
And by that, we mean the things that
they typically do on that team, you know,
and do over time.
But it's all individuals that are doing those
things.
It's not really that like the group doesn't
(10:23):
behave, the individuals in the group behave in
similar ways.
And on the topic of reinforcers, I think
this is a really interesting thing to get
into for this whole topic.
And one of the things that is really,
well, really the main thing that's really different
(10:44):
when we start talking about human behavior versus,
you know, what we're typically talking about in
training and thinking about reinforcers for animals is
that when we move into talking about humans,
we start talking about verbal behavior and verbal
communication.
And that opens up a whole other world
of consequences that can impact behavior that you
(11:10):
don't really have in the same way when
you talk about animals.
And so not that animals can't also have
social consequences that are important to them.
But when you bring the verbal element into
it, that brings a lot of additional pieces.
And so many times that verbal social element
(11:30):
is a really important set of consequences to
consider when we're talking about culture.
I'm assuming reinforcers and punishes.
Yes.
That's why I say consequences.
Definitely both of those things are in play
and negative reinforcers and negative punishes.
Yeah.
All the things.
(11:51):
And how do we think about that?
My brain is coming up with the words
social reinforcers.
Can you articulate this better for me?
What are these reinforcers and punishes?
Yeah, sure.
So some examples that we might think about
would be, you know, a lot of us
positive social attention from people that are in
(12:15):
our environment is a big reinforcer to one
extent or another.
And then also many of us to one
degree or another would also like to avoid
or escape confrontational type interactions with the people
around us.
(12:36):
And so I would characterize that as a
negative reinforcer, a social negative reinforcer.
So those are, I think those are two
big examples, particularly in organizational environments where, you
know, those positive attention type interactions, both with
our coworkers and with our leaders and with
(12:59):
people from other organizations can be a really
powerful, positive reinforcer.
And then avoiding those, those more confrontational or
sort of negative interactions can be or escaping
them can be a really, it can also
be a very positive, I'm sorry, a very
powerful negative reinforcer.
(13:20):
Yes.
I'm thinking about an example of, of sitting
in a team meeting and I won't obviously
say where or who was there.
So it's a real life situation, but I'm
not going to name anything or anyone.
And there was a behavioral challenge that this
team was talking about.
There was a, I would label it as
(13:42):
limited amount of behavioral or applied behavioral analysis
knowledge in the group.
And there was suggestions and labels being thrown
around and then the comment, well, let's not
change anything because we've always done it this
way.
And so why change it?
(14:02):
And as an individual sitting there, if I
speak up, did I speak up a little
bit against what I was sensing was a
little bit of group consensus.
And, but I'm sitting there with this knowledge
that is making me really perceive things differently.
And it's really challenging.
And so I'm trying to avoid that confrontation,
(14:25):
maintain relationships.
That's a really challenging space to be in,
isn't it?
It is.
And it, there's all kinds of, you know,
when we're training animals and we think about
their reinforcement history, their learning history.
So what they bring to the session and
how that impacts, you know, their behavior during
the session, we could think about that team
(14:45):
meeting the same way.
What's the learning history of everybody that, you
know, that's in that room that they've brought
into that conversation.
And the learning history of that group might
be that when you speak up against sort
of the group consensus, that there are social
punishers involved in that interaction.
(15:07):
And that learning history might prompt you to,
you know, have that sort of conflict that
you're talking about, where you think, well, I,
I'm not going to speak up because I
don't want to risk that confrontation.
And there's that avoidance piece we were talking
about.
Well, I think it's important because I want
to get to the second part of my
question, obviously, but I think it's important if
(15:29):
you're a listener and listening to this and
you're thinking that I had a situation that
shares similarities in some way to what Ryan's
talking about, or I can completely relate to
what Christy's saying and the challenges.
Firstly, I just want to point out a
couple of things, Christy.
You, the listener, are not alone.
This is something that occurs in animal training
(15:51):
organizations, but just organizations in general.
And it's not easy to think about all
of those individual learners in that space, those
human learners and what their learning history is
and what their reinforcers and punishers are and
what your relationships and the motivating operations are
for everyone.
There's a lot to process.
(16:13):
And so take a breath and be easy
on yourself because you're doing a great job
if you're here listening to this podcast.
I'm really glad you said that.
And I think too, I love that you
said go easy on yourself because the fact
that we're saying, you know, that this is
a, that could be avoidance response to avoid
(16:36):
the confrontation doesn't mean that, I mean, we're
not necessarily being critical of that response, right?
It's just a way of sort of describing
what that, the behavior principles behind that response
and some ways to think about that.
But it doesn't mean that you have to
take it upon yourself to be the person
that runs toward confrontation in every meeting.
(17:01):
No, definitely, definitely not.
And that can have a big toll on
you.
So you gotta look after yourself and juggle
that.
And again, it's not easy.
And by talking about these things in this
episode, and that's easier to do than to
be in place and say, so we're just
acknowledging that.
(17:22):
Now, I think considering what you've shared so
far and what we've talked about, for the
listener, there's probably some obvious things about how
important this is and how it can support
or hinder efforts.
But in your words, can you answer that
part now?
How important is this in implementing change and
how can it support or hinder efforts to
(17:44):
implement new practices?
Yeah, I think you're right.
The listeners probably can see where I'll go
with this.
But I do think that culture is hugely
important to this set of questions.
And so something for leaders and supervisors, and
also those who are not in that position,
(18:07):
but just want to sort of think carefully
about this.
Something to consider is that there are at
least a couple of different ways to go
about trying to impact change in an organization
and improve practices, which is I think what
we're all trying to do with the changes
that we're trying to put in place.
(18:29):
So one way is for leaders in the
organization, supervisors to sort of decide what is
best for the organization, for everyone in it,
and then just communicate what that is and
the expectation that it needs to be done.
And sometimes that can be successful.
(18:50):
And that's particularly true when it's something, when
it's a change that's smaller or simpler to
implement, and it's easy for everyone to understand
the rationale for it.
But when we're trying to build strategies, like
putting a new system in place or making
a major change to training practices, it can
(19:11):
be really beneficial to involve staff at several
different levels of that process.
And I think you have listeners that would
be at various levels of that process.
And we all know what it feels like
to want to be involved no matter what
(19:32):
level we're at in terms of having input
in how changes are made and how they're
implemented.
And gathering that input usually, and using it
in the planning, can be, can really be
the difference between a change that sort of
dies on the vine and it doesn't get
(19:54):
fully implemented or sustained in the long-term,
and a change that grows and blooms and
is maintained over time.
So those are the kinds of changes that
we want to make to organizations, right?
If we think we've got a new practice
that's really going to be beneficial to the
organizations and the animals in our care, we
(20:15):
want that change to be sustained over time.
And so that process of bringing in input
from different levels of the organization involves thinking
about that culture piece.
It involves thinking about the behavior of different
individuals and different sort of groups of individuals
(20:35):
in the organization and what kinds of consequences
and what kinds of antecedents, which we can
talk about too, are important to all of
those groups of people.
So yes, big considerations there.
You say there are a couple of different
(20:56):
ways to implement change and improve practices.
And thinking about what that looks like, we
are talking about the behavior change of individual
humans across all of those teams and in
all of the different roles of the organization.
And I juggle in my mind about how
(21:18):
to best articulate that because it can, I
think, come across as overwhelming when you think,
okay, I've got to train an animal.
This is how I do it.
I know how it works.
And I know how many variables can come
up and where I've got stuck in the
past.
And now I've got to implement that with
human learners across the whole organization.
(21:41):
And that's a lot of pressure to put
on yourself.
So again, my articulation of this is passion
thinking on the spot, not well thought out.
I had this question to ask later, but
it seems relevant to ask now, Chrissy.
If you're someone in an organization and you
listen to this podcast, you listen to the
(22:01):
Animal Training Academy podcast show, you absorb information,
you see areas for practice, you're conscious of
the culture there and where the hurdles and
opportunities are.
But considering you're going to make behavior change
with so many different individuals, what steps can
the listeners take to stay focused on celebrating
(22:23):
progress?
Because behavior change takes time.
We know that.
Without becoming overwhelmed by the bigger picture, because
if we just let our mind focus on
that end goal, without all of the approximations
that are required from where you currently are
to that space to get there, it can
quickly become quite overwhelming.
(22:43):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think there are a couple of different
pieces that I heard in there, but the
piece about how to stay focused, I think
what my mind goes to is tracking.
Just like if we were thinking about in
(23:05):
animal training, if we want to be able
to celebrate those successive approximations, then we have
to track our progress and our animals' progress.
The same thing applies here that we want
to have really clear goals.
But as you said, if you're really just
(23:26):
focused on that end goal, sometimes it's hard
to sustain that momentum to get there.
It's good to have some intermediate goals, some
successive approximations to be able to celebrate when
you hit those targets and be also know
when to pivot if a strategy is not
(23:48):
quite having the effect that we wanted.
It's stalling and we need to pivot to
something else.
Having those approximations in place can help us
to do both of those things.
I'm just trying to think of an example
and seeing if we can put this into
a real-life situation.
I'll throw one at you, Chrissy.
(24:08):
I apologize for putting you on the spot
and apologize for my on-the-spot thinking.
Feel free to interject at any time where
you feel like there's possible value in reframing
anything that I offer.
Let's say we're in a zoo environment.
We've got an educational demonstration for visitors that
(24:31):
requires trained animals.
You're in a team situation.
One of the animal's behaviors has started to
break down and you come up with a
plan to remedy that.
There is mixed levels of knowledge in the
team with regards to how behavior works.
(24:54):
Some team members aren't implementing the strategy as
you think you have talked about.
You're feeling a little bit overwhelmed by what
you perceive as the culture and your communication
skills, relationships.
(25:18):
You want to tackle this because this is
something that you can see that's recurring.
What kind of goals might the listener of
the show set for themselves in a situation
like this?
Yeah, what a great question.
I think some of that comes down to
thinking about...
Part of the challenge is that there are,
(25:40):
as you said, those differing levels of understanding
of behavior principles and you're trying to work
from that foundation.
It can come down to, I know I
need to have a conversation with this other
person.
Maybe it's a leader or maybe it's a
teammate.
(26:01):
What is my goal for this conversation?
That can be a first question.
Is my goal to convince this other person
that my plan for this is the right
plan?
Is my goal to find some kind of
common ground for this person so that we
can start to build a relationship?
Those would be long-term versus short-term
(26:25):
examples.
Maybe your ultimate goal is to affect some
change through the type of plan that you
think would be effective.
If you don't have a good foundational relationship
with the person to begin with, then an
intermediate goal might be, my goal for this
(26:46):
conversation is just for us to find some
common ground so that we can move forward
from that perspective.
Maybe the next conversation is, let's find a
small action that we can agree on that
comes out of that common ground.
You can make those approximations from there.
(27:09):
That way, again, it helps to be able
to celebrate after those conversations, celebrate those small
successes when they occur and also when they
don't occur to think, oh, that was something
I need to think more about and think
about what I want to do differently next
time to try to get to that next
(27:31):
approximation.
I feel hesitancy in saying what I'm going
to say next because I just feel like
I'm a broken record because I feel like
podcast episodes just always come back to crucial
conversations and whether it's that book or a
(27:51):
similar piece of content that's from different authors
or different content creators that likely are saying
very similar things, but it comes back to
building that skill in yourself and building some
new behaviors in yourself.
Also, consistently putting on your behavior glasses or
(28:14):
your behavior hat.
If you have the goal of, okay, I
don't have the best relationship with, let's say,
one of these individuals in this situation that
I just put forward and my goal, therefore,
is to put some deposits in my trust
account, we'll operationalize what that looks like for
(28:35):
your individual situation and then you go forward
into the conversation and achieve your goal.
It's challenging, isn't it, because the stuff that's
happening with the non-human learner and the
educational display isn't necessarily going to change.
Is it a hurdle for some individuals to
(29:00):
get over to be able to shift focus
momentarily onto the human learners?
I think so.
It's understandable because we all got into this
because we care about the animal's quality of
life and we want to make the best
(29:23):
improvements that we know how to make.
We have those ideas and it seems like,
well, we could just change this thing and
it would make things better.
It's hard not to really push for those
things and to fall back on those strategies
that we already know, which are explaining and
(29:47):
delivering information and saying, well, this is why
we should do this.
It's completely understandable.
We also know from lots of behavior evidence
that delivering information in that way is not
(30:07):
always successful, is often not successful at creating
behavior change and creating action.
One thing to think about when that is
hard, because it is often hard, is that
I think we set up a false choice
for ourselves sometimes when we think about, well,
I can either push for this change right
(30:29):
now and get this animal's quality of life
improved or get this presentation improved or whatever
the goal is, or I can take a
step back and think about what would I
need to do in order to really build
this change in a sustainable way over time.
Maybe that involves building a relationship and it
might take longer.
(30:50):
The reason I say it's a false choice
is because when we fall back on that
known historical behavior of pushing for that change,
it may make things worse actually, and it
may not create the quality of life improvement
(31:13):
that we want for the animal.
It may not be a choice between immediate
change and long-term change.
It may be a choice between long-term
change and either no change or partial change
or something similar.
Thank you for sharing all of this.
This is super helpful.
(31:34):
Just to pivot just a little bit, staying
on the topic of culture and thinking about
everything we've discussed so far and some of
the other valuable considerations, in my personal opinion,
when thinking about the kind of culture we
want to create and the words growth mindset
(31:59):
come to mind, the words learning, the words
safety.
So safe to make mistakes and learn from
those mistakes.
How do we work towards a growth mindset
within an organization?
(32:19):
Someone asked this in our membership, Christy, which
is why I'm asking this now and struggling
to articulate it in the way that I
know that I want to articulate it.
For example, which was offered in our Facebook
group, members-only Facebook group, a team may
initially embrace positive reinforcement training practices.
(32:42):
So you might get this excitement in the
team, this acknowledgement that other zoos, other organizations,
other vet clinics are doing fear-free, other
zoos are implementing training programs.
We're going to do that too.
But then to maintain that, you need all
(33:04):
of those elements of culture I just mentioned
and the willingness to keep evolving and improving.
Any input you have for those listening in
terms of listening to this podcast, thinking about
culture, incorporating that in their thoughts so far
about any changes that they, the listener wants
to make?
(33:24):
Yes.
And I think there's kind of two parts
of this topic.
So I want to, and one of them
you already mentioned, and I want to come
back to, because there's, I think there's a
lot on that, which is having your behavior
analyst hat on and thinking about perspectives.
So we can come back to that one.
(33:45):
But I think from the standpoint of thinking
about those kinds of cultural goals that you
were just mentioning, like having a growth mindset
as part of the culture and having the
culture feel safe to make mistakes and having
that collaborative environment.
(34:07):
A lot of that comes down to what
we sort of started with, which was when
we talk about culture, what is our definition
of that?
And in behavior analysis, we talk about operational
definitions, right?
So how do we, when we have a
label like this, what are we labeling?
(34:28):
What is the behavior that we're looking for
specifically?
And with these kinds of things, with cultural
things, there can be a couple of levels
of this, right?
When we talk about, well, we want to
have a growth mindset.
A question that we can ask is what
would it look like if we had a
growth mindset?
What are the kinds of things that our
team would be doing?
(34:48):
What are the kinds of practices that we
would have in place that we would follow?
And how would we interact with each other
if we had a growth mindset?
And that you can sort of start the
process that way, and that can sort of
roll into some strategies and some actions that
(35:10):
you can take to start to move towards
some of those things.
So you can kind of do it at
this, in an organization, a lot of times
we would work through an infrastructure at multiple
levels, we would talk about our values, and
then the vision for the organization, and then
the mission, and then the strategies, and then
the actions.
(35:31):
And I think growth mindset probably would fall
under values as for an organization, and then
you can sort of move through those levels.
I sort of went straight from values to
strategies there, right?
Like what would it look like if we
had this?
And then the next question would be, what
(35:52):
sort of actions can we take as a
team in order for these behaviors that we're
identifying to occur regularly and sustainably on our
team?
So that's one part of it is thinking,
really breaking it down.
We also talk about it in behavior analysis
as a task analysis.
(36:13):
So when we have a behavior or a
set of behaviors that we want to teach,
or that we want to ensure that that
behavior continues, we break it down into its
component parts and think about what does this
really look like, and what order does it
need to happen in?
(36:34):
And then we make sure that we are
tracking whether those things are happening.
So that's kind of a perspective on that
piece.
And then I know that also for many
of your listeners, they want to think about,
I'm assuming, they want to think about culture
and how to strategize around some of these
(36:57):
changes.
And also they're asking questions about, well, if
I'm not personally in the position to affect
these changes for the organization, I'm not in
a supervisor role, I'm not in a leadership
role, then what do I do?
How do I, if I have ideas for
changes that I think would be really helpful
(37:18):
for the organization, how do I, as someone
two steps down from a leadership position, how
do I go about that?
So again, I think it's important to, I'm
just going to say this again, it's so
important to think about this idea that just
(37:40):
explaining the change that we want to make
and why we want to make it is
often not going to be effective.
And the reason for that is, and you
can think about maybe a time when listeners,
you can think about a time when someone
has tried to explain why you should do
something differently and it was not effective and
(38:01):
why was it not effective?
And it's likely because of the contingencies that
are in place on your behavior, right?
There are other reasons why you do things
the way that you already do them.
And someone explaining to you why you should
do it differently is often not going to
be enough to override those reinforcers and punishers
(38:23):
that are already in place that produced your
behavior.
Now, the same is true of our leaders
in organizations.
So often we'll go to them and we'll
say, I really think that we should implement
this change and I think it would be
beneficial for the animals, I think it'd be
beneficial for our team and here's why.
And it may not even be that the
(38:45):
leader necessarily disagrees with the idea, it may
just be that there are other contingencies in
place that are stopping that idea from, or
stopping that leader from taking action to implement
your desired change.
And so the thing I want to talk
about in terms of putting your ABA hat
(39:07):
on is thinking about, is doing a little
bit of perspective taking, right?
So thinking about things from that leader's perspective.
And often we forget to do this because
we get so excited about the behavior analysis
portion of caring for animals and learning about
that and implementing it to improve their lives
(39:30):
that we forget that all the people around
us have those same kinds of behavior principles
impacting their behavior.
And so with someone in a leadership position,
some things to think about for perspective taking
would be what kinds of pressures are being
(39:51):
placed on that individual in terms of job
expectations?
Are there things that make their job harder
and what are those things?
What kinds of, we could try to identify
individual's reinforcers just by observing their behavior, right?
(40:12):
So is this a person who likes to
avoid conflict?
Is this a person that likes a lot
of social attention or not?
Those kinds of things and trying to, and
again, some of that is about relationship building
and learning about other people and what's going
on in their lives.
So yeah, and then another thing is the
(40:37):
degree or like extent of information that a
leader needs to have in order to make
a change.
So sometimes they need a lot of information
and we can talk about what form that
might take.
And sometimes they just need a little bit.
So it's, again, it's learning that over time.
(40:58):
And then the other piece that we often
forget about is sometimes we think about those
things from the consequence side, like what are
this person's reinforcers and punishers, but we forget
about the antecedent side of the ABC sequence,
right?
So are there things, if I'm requesting a
(41:19):
certain action towards change, like for example, if
I want to, if I want approval for
funding for some learning opportunity for individuals on
my team to be able to learn something
about behavior principles, what can I do to
make that requested change easier?
(41:41):
What can I do to make it easier
for this leader to say yes?
And that's going to vary depending on their
challenges and the expectations on them and all
of those circumstances, but that's why it's important
to do that perspective taking and do that
relationship building and try to kind of gather
some of that information so that you can,
(42:02):
again, bring it into your crucial conversations and
try to use that to build towards the
changes that you're looking to make.
Yeah, I love that.
It reminds me of something I learned at
Wellington Zoo when I worked there.
They had a form you could fill out
when you wanted to request to do a
(42:23):
project.
And one of the questions on that form
was, what are the risks associated with this
project?
And then the next question was, how would
you mitigate these risks?
And then there was a question, something along
the lines of how would you report that?
And I just found it so helpful in
getting projects approved after I learned that, because
(42:45):
you take that to a manager and firstly,
they're like, well, I've literally had a manager
say to me, no one's ever done that
before.
Like pre-thought of all of the risks
and then came up with solutions to those
risks and then told me how they were
going to report back to me.
And it just got approvals for me.
That was part of a package of things
(43:07):
that got approval.
So I really love that.
And then I'm just sharing some stories because
I think they're cool.
Yeah, that's great.
What would it look like if we had
a growth mindset?
When I work with teams and we're in
a team environment and we're doing portal or
maybe we're doing some training, we do a
lot of training with horses and then dogs
with zoo teams and chickens to build some
(43:30):
skill with some, what I would label as
easier animals and some of the animals that
they're going to be tasked with within their
collections.
And in the team environment, when we have
a trainer bravely doing some training in front
of their peers, we go around in a
circle and everyone points out something that that
individual did that they liked and something that
(43:51):
the animal did that they liked.
And then they ask a question as well
of that person.
They get curious.
And what I love about that is just
watching it happen.
And but to the feedback from that is
that's one of the favorite parts of the
day is learning these new skills about how
(44:13):
to give feedback.
And I appreciate that if that's one of
the favorite parts and there's reinforcers involved for
these skills in this context.
So that's something that came to mind when
you asked a great question.
What would it look like if we had
a growth mindset?
Also, listeners of this show, you should be
really grateful for Christy because I'm just going
(44:34):
off on tangents and I sent Christy a
list of questions.
And when I'm asking her my tangent questions,
she's bringing it straight back to the list
of questions that we had agreed to talk
about.
So express gratitude for Christy for being an
awesome guest and on to it in that
way.
Now, Christy, another question that we got from
our members thinking about when you're in an
(44:56):
organization, whether it's a training business, a vet
clinic.
I know we had some questions from people
working in a horse context.
So within organizations where they're training horses or
zoos and you're not in a leadership position
and you have this information and it's maybe
(45:17):
contrary.
You want to do things slightly differently to
the way things are being done.
And I've had this question from keepers as
well when they say, you know, I want
to just do some training and I hope
that people will see what I'm doing and
they'll get curious and we can build growth
that way.
Just throw that at you, Christy.
(45:38):
What does it make you think?
What are some effective ways for someone to
model better practices when they're not in a
leadership position and input is not formally requested
from them or change is not formally requested?
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think, I mean, you kind of
hit it on the head there already with
(45:59):
the modeling, right?
So if that's where you can start, you
know, you sort of have to think about
what can I control in this situation.
And if your own behavior is what you
can control, then you can model those best
practices.
And then if input is not formally being
requested or there's no sort of system in
(46:21):
place to give input or to make suggestions,
then it likely will be down to some
of that relationship building that we talked about
in order to be able to start to
find some common ground and agree on some
actions.
(46:41):
And to be clear when, you know, we're
talking about sort of doing that cultural change
planning, like thinking about how do we develop
a growth mindset?
How do we make this a safe place
to make mistakes?
And then thinking about what would that look
like and all of that, you know, individuals
(47:02):
can do some of that, right?
Can think about, well, what would a growth
mindset look like?
And it might look like some of the
things that you just mentioned, Ryan, which is,
and that's a great way to think about
that is, you know, sort of talking, you
know, talking to other people who are in
these positions about, well, I'd really like to
help my team develop a growth mindset.
(47:24):
What are some actions that you've either taken
or that some practices that you've experienced that
have been successful in that?
So I really love the one that you
talked about with basically, you know, celebrating successes
and getting curious.
So if we say those are two things
(47:45):
that would be really important to a growth
mindset, this is a part, this is a
daily practice that promotes that, that's been successful.
That's something that, you know, as an individual,
you could just pick that one action and
see if you can kind of plant that
seed with, you know, the individuals that you
do have relationships with and try to, you
(48:07):
know, get that ball rolling.
And it could even be that you just
start with one other person that you celebrate
those successes with each other and get curious
with each other.
Maybe it doesn't even start with the whole
team or the whole organization.
It just starts with one other person.
And then you kind of build it from
there.
And that's, it really is just about continuing
to think about what you can control at
(48:29):
that moment and what you have influence over
and trying to build it from there.
Just take that next step that you can.
I'm torn because I've got so many things
I want to talk about, but appreciate we've
been going for nearly 15 minutes now.
So I'm aware of the time, everyone.
And I just want to, before I miss
(48:50):
the opportunity, give credit to Sarah Owings, a
US-based dog trainer and now cow trainer
doing an amazing job training her whole herd
of cows and wonderful teacher of human beings
who helped bring that idea.
I call it the Sarah Owings rubric of
how we process and what actions we can
(49:15):
take after we've just done a training session
or watched someone else do a training session.
So kudos to Sarah Owings for those questions
I shared earlier.
So in the interest of time, we had
more questions.
I'm going to try to wrap them up
into one question.
So I'm going to bring up multiple things,
put them under an umbrella and see if
we can efficiently, quickly answer that.
(49:39):
So there are times in a zoo context,
so you're an enthusiastic keeper or enthusiastic employee
in a zoo clinic or trainer in an
organisation you've just joined, and you're asked to
do things in your role.
(49:59):
And they conflict, you get some dissonance in
your mind about, this doesn't feel aligned with
my understanding of what's best for the animal
in this situation, but I've got these consequences
from my team of either doing or not
doing these things.
(50:19):
I can see that, I've listened to Christie
and Ryan, and I can see that, okay,
to get behaviour change here, it's going to
take time.
I've got to focus on the approximations required
of all of the human individuals involved.
And in the meantime, I need to continue
to do what's being asked of me in
(50:41):
my role, with my job description, in my
organisation.
So some examples that I've thought about from
my time in zoos is handling reptiles specifically,
no choice given, aversives.
I would just use my judgment to say
that the animals did not enjoy, without getting
(51:03):
too technical, what was happening there.
But you have to be at a certain
place, at a certain time, with an animal
in your hand.
Or someone offered the example in our membership
of working with horses in disability programmes, where
the movement of the horses is important for
the rehabilitation of the client, but that's not
(51:26):
necessarily always what's best for the horse.
Can you just share some thoughts, Christie?
Because we've talked about the culture, we've talked
about the approximations required, the antecedents and consequences,
we've put it all in behaviour jargon, but
we've still got to show up to work
tomorrow and process what's being asked of us.
(51:47):
And we've decided we're going to stick it
out.
How can we best navigate getting through this
period?
Yeah, I think that can be, you've identified
something that can be really challenging.
And that conflict, that misalignment between what we
think is best and what's being asked of
(52:09):
us.
And I think that it comes down to
a judgment call about what each of us
is comfortable with, saying yes to and for
how long.
And that will be an individual thing.
I think what I would want listeners to
(52:32):
know is that when we talk about these
strategies for sort of bottom-up change, where
you're doing this perspective taking with leaders, and
you're building relationships with your co-workers and
all of those things, that's not to say
that there might not come a point in
(52:55):
your relationship with an organization where you decide
that what you're being asked to do is
no longer acceptable, and it's just not a
good fit for you, and you move on
to another opportunity.
That could be also something that is within
your control that you decide to do in
order to make effective change in animals' lives.
(53:16):
And that's perfectly fine.
And I don't want anybody to feel like
it would be a failure if they made
that decision rather than sticking it out and
continuing to do things that are misaligned with
their ethics.
So I think in a lot of cases,
it's probably going to fall somewhere in between.
(53:38):
Somewhere in between the extreme of, well, I'm
willing to say yes to what I'm being
asked to do indefinitely, even if no change
ever happens, and the extreme of, I am
quitting tomorrow because this is no longer acceptable.
It'll probably be somewhere in the middle for
a lot of people.
And so it might consist of a process
that looks like trying to identify what you
(54:01):
can control and taking some of the steps
that we've talked about, and then having a
personal limit at some point of if what
you're being asked to do is seriously misaligned
with what you think is the best practices
for quality of life of the animals in
your care, that there's a limit to how
(54:22):
long you'll say yes to it, and that's
as it should be.
Yeah, I think that's a really great way
of articulating that, being in the relationship where
you feel like you're going to say yes
indefinitely to something that's unsustainable.
And I just want to also wrap up
(54:44):
on this, Christy, and get your thoughts.
Again, for the listeners of the show, I'll
share a personal story.
I remember, Christy, when I first learned about
Crucial Conversations, and I was in an organization
where there were some things that I thought
were disrespectful being aimed at me, but I
(55:05):
didn't think it was being done with malice.
And I knew that I liked the individual,
and I knew that they were there for
the same reason that I was there, because
they love the job, and they love the
animals, and they wanted what's best.
And so I sat down and went through
(55:27):
some of the questions that are offered by
the book Crucial Conversations, answered them, and used
those answers to frame a conversation with this
person.
Christy, it felt so uncomfortable doing these behaviors
that I'd never done before, and not knowing
(55:48):
what the consequences were going to be.
So I just want to say for everyone
listening, I want to share gratitude for listening
today.
And I think you're entering into a conversation
where it takes vulnerability, and it takes courage.
And I just want to honor the listeners,
Christy, and acknowledge them for just being here
(56:12):
and listening, and if they put some of
this into action in any way, shape, or
form, just honor that vulnerability and courage.
Absolutely.
I'll join you in that for sure.
It's not easy to do.
And as we kind of opened up with
that verbal behavior aspect that gets added when
(56:34):
you're working with humans can make things, sometimes
it makes things easier, right?
Because sometimes we wish we could talk, we
could have a conversation with an animal in
the way that we do with a person.
But sometimes it makes things a lot more
complicated and a lot more difficult, because it
introduces a whole other category of important consequences.
(56:57):
So reinforcers and punishers for us and for
all of the people around us.
And so what you just described about it
being difficult to engage in some of those
new behaviors in a conversation is part of
that, those verbal social reinforcers and punishers that
(57:18):
just they do, they're real and they can
make things feel really hard.
And so, yes, I will join you in
celebrating any small approximation or step into the
pool that anyone takes under this umbrella.
(57:38):
Well, I could just keep going and going
but I'm not going to.
I think we've shared a valuable amount in
the time that we've had to share it.
But I am going to ask Christy to
share her availability as well.
(57:59):
If you have any questions or if you
have any thoughts or if you want to
share anything, you can reach out to me
at Animal Training Academy at any time.
And Christy, for those who might be interested
in hearing more of your perspectives or asking
questions or exploring your services and what you
(58:19):
can offer them if they're in an organization
and an organization is open to getting external
help, where can people go to find out
more about you, what you do, BehaviorWorks, the
work of Susan and get in touch with
me?
Sure.
So the BehaviorWorks website is behaviorworks.org and
there's a lot of information there.
And I can tell you about a few
(58:40):
of the things that I'm involved with for
outside health for organizations, just email me directly
at caa at behaviorworks.org.
And then the sort of ongoing opportunities that
I'm involved with include a course called How
(59:00):
Research Works and that's for animal professionals who
really want to be evidence-based in their
work but maybe don't have the background in
understanding, you know, peer-reviewed literature on behavior
research and want to get some of that
foundation so that they can access that literature
(59:22):
and use it in their work.
So that's an eight-week course we're just
finishing up around right now.
There will be another one in the spring
so there'll be an opportunity then.
I also run a journal reading group and
that is held once a month and we
do three-month sessions and each three-month
session has a different theme that we focus
(59:43):
on for those three months.
So right now our focus is on reinforcer
assessments and this is the last one for
2024 and I have not set the topics
for 2025 yet and I would welcome suggestions
from new participants for those suggestions.
That is a really fun group to be
a part of.
It typically includes behavior analysts who work with
(01:00:07):
both animals and sometimes even people and then
lots of different kinds of animal professionals as
well and so we get a lot of
great differing perspectives on the things that we
read which is really fun.
And then another piece to that work at
BehaviorWorks is our career connections section of the
(01:00:29):
website that you can look at and that
includes a couple of different things.
One of them is just a consult with
me which is essentially just a conversation that
I gather some information from the individual beforehand
but it's a conversation about their educational goals
and or their career goals and what steps
(01:00:50):
they might take next to try to get
towards those goals.
So that's really fun too.
So lots going on at BehaviorWorks and any
questions about any of that folks can email
me directly.
Wonderful and we will of course link to
all of this in the show notes as
well so you can view the listener in
(01:01:12):
whatever app you're listening to the song can
find links to that information about everything Christy
just shared in the show notes.
Christy this has been so much fun so
from myself and on behalf of everyone listening
and all of the learners human and non
-human learners that the listeners will go out
and work with and have a positive impact
(01:01:32):
on we really appreciate you taking the time
to come and hang out with us today.
Thank you so much.
My pleasure.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host Ryan Cartlidge signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(01:01:53):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches learn from them and
keep improving and don't forget the path to
(01:02:16):
growing your skills and expanding your knowledge continues
beyond this episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
just like you.
Together we're making a huge positive difference in
(01:02:39):
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time keep honing your skills stay
awesome and remember every interaction with an animal
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
(01:03:00):
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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