August 11, 2025 • 53 mins
In this second installment of our two-part conversation, Adam Skandarani returns to explore one of the most nuanced and vital topics in our industry: the intersection of art, science, and culture in animal training.
Blending professional insight, lived experience, and thoughtful introspection, Adam and Ryan unpack the complexities that arise when training mechanics meet real-world messiness—where logical reasoning, cultural norms, and individual values can shape how training is practiced, received, and understood.
Together, we explore:
✅ The difference between applying science and embodying artistry in training
✅ How “cultural fogs” impact both client beliefs and trainer behaviors
✅ Why critical thinking and curiosity are essential tools of the trade
✅ Practical examples of shaping, splitting, and preparing for real-world success
✅ How to hold multiple truths at once—and communicate them with care
✅ The role of social media in shaping modern training discourse
✅ Adam’s vision for a future guided by understanding, welfare, and curiosity
From skill-building to introspection, from koalas to kickback stands, this episode is a deep dive into what it means to be more than “just” a dog trainer. It’s about becoming an effective, empathetic, and artful practitioner—for all species, including our own.
Links
instagram.com/flashofbrilliancedogs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015 we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will get started on today's episode where
I am thrilled to welcome back to the
podcast for part two of our conversation, the
awesome Adam Scandarani.
(01:53):
And if you haven't listened to the first
part of our conversation, you can find it
in the previous episode on whatever app you
are listening to the show on.
In that episode, we explored Adam's journey and
getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and
what led her to current work with a
flash of brilliance dog training.
(02:14):
And it's definitely worth a listen.
However, if you haven't done so, you are
of course welcome to start here with part
two.
We are still going to gain a ton
of insights to help you grow your skills,
knowledge, and confidence in animal training.
So let's dive in.
Adam, welcome back to the show.
We're grateful to have you join us again
at Animal Training Academy.
(02:34):
Thank you for being here.
It is my pleasure to be here again.
Thank you for having me back.
My pleasure.
The pleasure is ours, a massive in capital
letters.
Thank you.
And in this episode, I'm really looking forward
to geeking out on this idea of the
art and science of animal training, which for
(02:55):
you, the listener, you might've heard mentioned in
multiple different areas of our field.
For me this morning, I was reflecting back
before we jumped onto record about where I
first heard of this concept.
And I think it was, I was telling
you, Adam, before we pushed record, I think
it was from the US based primarily exotics
(03:17):
trainer and head of the fantastic natural encounters
incorporated Steve Martin.
And it was in an article from 2006
called the art of training.
And then when I Googled it this morning,
trying to remember like where, like who did,
where did I hear this from?
The name of an awesome conference also popped
(03:39):
up organized by a group of trainers out
of the university of North Texas called the
art and science of animal training organized by
a group called Orca, which I to the
best of my knowledge don't think is still
ongoing, but it might be wrong.
So when you mentioned this anyway, to me,
Adam, in a conversation we had when we
(03:59):
caught up last month that you wanted to
dive into this, I was all in.
And we at the time threw back and
forth a number of ideas.
And this is what you landed on that
you most wanted to discuss.
Can you share with the listeners why you
thought you wanted to use this opportunity to
talk specifically about that?
(04:21):
Yeah, I would love to, I came to
this conclusion because over my time as like
over the course of my time as a
dog trainer, as a professional dog trainer, who
is also a millennial and scours the internet
for all sorts of drama all of the
time.
I love other people's drama.
(04:41):
If I don't have to be involved in
it, I just want to consume it.
It's great.
Reality TV was made for me, except that
it doesn't entertain me the way Facebook does.
But the point is I've come to learn
a lot of opinions while scouring through Facebook
groups and everything.
And I have learned that there are quite
a few cultural shifts in positive reinforcement training
(05:06):
taking place that worry me a little bit.
They are seemingly headed in the right direction.
And yet if you look a little bit
closer, we're not seeing all the pieces of
the puzzle that needs to be fit into
place in order for this to actually be
(05:26):
a good shift.
And that shift that I'm looking at specifically
is this cultural fog that we have to
give like our animals are captive animals and
we know that our dogs are captive animals
and we know that.
And so therefore we have to give them
the best, most enriching life that we can.
And that is very, very true.
(05:47):
And also the ways in which we go
about it can accidentally build in behaviors that
we don't want.
A good example of how that looks is
really, really sloppy positive reinforcement training.
If we don't know what the functional reinforcements
at play are, if we don't know what
(06:08):
the dog's motivators are, if we don't know
what we're doing in terms of timing or
if our observation skills aren't quite as high
as we need them to be in this
particular context in this particular moment.
And so it came to my, it came
to me to mind that there is more
(06:29):
to positive reinforcement training than just the science
behind it, which is what people are trying
to apply.
There's also an art to it and learning
how to become an artist, I guess, is
in and of itself, a journey it's in
and of itself, a journey.
And it's in and of itself, what, where
(06:51):
you have to go to kind of build
in this idea of what we want to
do for our captive animals in our care
and give them that really good enriching life
and give them as much agency as we
can and provide them with as many choices
as they can possibly handle, et cetera, et
cetera.
(07:11):
And so that's kind of where it came
to me.
I just really want to be able to
give people a different perspective into what training
can look like to be kind and effective.
I like reality TV as well, but I
don't feel comfortable sharing the programs.
You don't have to, it's okay.
(07:33):
That'll be our little secret.
Me and my wife, sometimes we'll digest a
series of something.
However, just I think there's value in discussing
the, how do we say it?
The conversations that happen on social media.
I'm kind of like a hundred percent, not
(07:56):
kind of like I like just avoid it
myself for multiple reasons.
One, like running a business and being a
dad, like and working from home a lot
of the time, it's so challenging to have
(08:17):
clearly defined boundaries for yourself.
And other members of your family.
And it's really blurry about where one stops
and one finishes.
So it's challenging to, and there's an art
in this as well.
And I think in developing the skills to
be physically present as well as mentally present
(08:38):
when you're, you know, left the office and
that's true as well, if you're working away
from home.
But, you know, I want to be like
mentally present when I'm with my family.
And so I stay away from drama because
I feel like that occupies my mental space
for me.
And also like, just time.
(08:58):
It always like when there's like a significant
conversation that's happening, a lot of it generally
finds its way into Animal Training Academy because
people are involved that are in our community
or people want to share about it in
our community.
So eventually I will listen to it.
But am I understanding that you're a little
(09:19):
bit maybe on the other side of the
bell curve to me?
You're like quite interested in reading and participating.
I'm not sure if those are two different
things because we can have observers and we
can have participators.
And there's no right or wrong in terms
of who you are, who I am, who
you listen to.
I'm just trying to understand, are you kind
(09:40):
of like in the trenches?
Yeah.
So I am much more of a listener
than I am a participator.
I used to be very big in the
participating part back when I did not have
as clear defined boundaries as I do now,
back when I was younger and much more
hotheaded than I am these days.
So yeah, once upon a time I was
(10:00):
a participator and nowadays I'm far more an
observer and I find it very important to
me because it helps me also learn some
of my audience.
A lot of these trainer fights that we're
seeing on the internet that I label as
trainer fights aren't actually happening between professional trainers.
(10:22):
They're happening between hobby trainers, people who are
training their first dogs, people who are training
their third dogs, but who are not often
professional trainers or who are just starting out
on their professional journey, much like how I
was.
I am not saying that as a way
(10:43):
to draw negatively on any of these groups
of people.
That is not at all where I'm trying
to go with this.
What I'm trying to say is it is
often with people who have half the picture,
if that makes sense, half of what is
going on.
And so we need to have the full
story, the full picture to be able to
see what's happening.
(11:03):
And as our favorite person to quote, well,
my favorite person to quote, Dr. Susan Friedman
says behavior is just a study of one.
And so that's kind of where I'm leaning
with this is yes, we want to talk
about our knowledge.
We want to talk about what we know
and we want to talk about what we
think is best for the welfare of the
(11:25):
animals in our care.
And also there are different ways to go
about it.
And internet fights are not the way I
go about it anymore, but I still like
to watch them.
I still like to observe them because I
like to see where the mood is going
with the people who I tend to, who
listen to me as my audience, who converse
with me as colleagues, who talk to me
(11:47):
as clients, who all of these people on
the internet are all potential clients for me.
They're all potential colleagues.
They're all potential friends.
They're all potential whatever.
So I would like to see where the
mood is going.
It helps me assess where we are talking
about in terms of like the big one
recently that I was been mulling over is
(12:07):
the credentialing bodies, for example, what do we
want to do there?
And so I want to hear what people
have to say.
I want to know where people are going
with their opinions and it helps me understand
them a little bit better and understand myself
a little bit better.
So that's kind of where I'm going with
this.
Yeah, they're all really interesting thoughts that make
(12:32):
me, you've just gone, oh man, maybe I
should be reading more of this stuff.
I'm not going to in 2025, but like
what you said makes a lot of sense
to me is what I'm trying to say.
And you used the word cultural fog earlier,
which is another Susanism and that I think
(12:56):
is an adequate one and a good one,
adept, I don't know the word I'm looking
for, a good one to describe what's going
on online.
Do you want to share with the listeners
who might not be familiar with that terminology,
what you mean when you say cultural fog?
Yeah.
So a cultural fog is kind of just
(13:16):
the culture around experiences going on around us.
So in terms of that, that's just my
basic.
I did not look up actually Susan's actual
definition of it.
But essentially in the dog world, in the
positive reinforcement realm of the world, we have
some ideas that we hold really strongly to
about what is and is not good dog
(13:37):
training.
And some of these things are cultural norms
versus scientifically proven, in fact, kind of things.
And those are kind of where the cultural
shifts tend to take place and tend to
happen.
And those are the cultural fogs in which
we have to kind of maneuver and work
(13:58):
through to kind of either get out on
the other side of or shift if some
of them need shifting, things like that.
Awesome.
And I don't know if Susan has a
specific article just on that topic or mentioned
as part of a large article.
I'll have to revisit that.
But there's a whole suite of articles on
(14:22):
Susan's website BehaviourWorks.org if you, the listener,
wanted to learn more about that topic and
a whole range of other Susanisms.
So we've got science of training and the
art of training.
And I think there's different ways to look
at the art side.
And when I started recording today, I'm curious
(14:42):
if I had kind of a different idea
in my head as to what you just
described.
So let's check in on that.
And happy to talk about whatever is most
valuable.
So you're talking more than just the mechanical
application of the skills of training.
So you're talking more than just my timing,
(15:03):
my reinforcement systems, understanding motivation, relationships, positive
reinforcement, cue delivery, all of that kind of
stuff.
You're talking more about being an operator than
the industry as a professional trainer.
Am I understanding?
A little bit of both.
So I want to talk a little bit
about the mechanics of training, your timing, your
(15:28):
observation skills, your cues, all of that, and
also how cultural fogs or cultural norms can
affect your ability to hone those skills effectively.
So a good example for this would be
one of the cultural fogs that I have
(15:50):
is I've even heard opinions go as deeply
as leashes are bad because they restrict the
choices of dogs.
And that is a cultural fog that I
have heard multiple times on the Internet.
I don't know people personally who believe in
that, but I do know that it is
(16:11):
an opinion that is out there.
And you know what?
Let's.
Yeah, yeah.
Leashes do restrict the choices that our dogs
can make.
And it's a fact of life that we
have to live with, at least in North
America.
And to talk about that, like I want
my dog to be super comfortable in his
own skin and happy enough to be around
(16:31):
me.
The fact that he is on a leash
is of no consequence.
I do not want that leash to be
the tool that keeps my dog with me.
That tool of control over my dog.
I just want it to be on my
dog because the law tells me I have
to.
And I think that is where artistry comes
into it.
If we are stuck with leashes and they
are just a fact of life, then what
(16:53):
do we do with them?
Do we use them to yank and crank
our dogs around?
Or can we just teach our dogs that
being around us is enjoyable and give them
skills that they need in order to just
manage themselves on those on on those leashes
that are restricting their choices and their ability
to move their bodies freely?
And so that's kind of an example of
(17:13):
where we're sorry.
That's one of the examples where we can
go from the idea is a cultural norm,
an idea that people have and how it
can affect your mechanics and your skills and
your ability to be an effective, positive reinforcement
trainer.
Yeah, this is something that I've been thinking
about a lot recently and haven't really contemplated
(17:37):
too much.
I think both one in my own life,
41 years of it and in this podcast.
And that is to do that effectively.
I think to be able to navigate cultural
fog takes a level of understanding about reasoning.
(17:57):
Your leashes, what was it?
Leashes are bad.
So say that again.
Oh, sorry.
The example that I had used are leashes
are bad because they restrict the choices a
dog can make or the freedom of movement.
Right.
And so like this, I think as you
were talking, forgive me for multitasking, but I
(18:18):
was asking my mate Chazza, Chaz GPT like
what kind of reasoning this is like leashes
are bad because and it came out something
called denatalogical rational, which is like ethics based
reasoning.
Right.
Like it's I have values and ethics.
And so that I create reasoning based on
that.
And then I put that out into the
(18:39):
world.
And as the receiver of this information, it
can be really hard to.
It's quite, I think, disorientating because like these
truths people present truth.
So another one that I was just just
contemplating recently is the argument that, oh, punishment
and the aversives modifying behavior is just a
(19:00):
natural part of what occurs on this planet.
And that being used as a logic to
say, therefore, like we should use it, we
should have them in our tool belt.
And like like like if you haven't thought
about that before or aren't familiar with different
types of reasoning, I think that can really
disorientate you because you can't you can't really
argue with the fact that that that like
(19:21):
makes sense.
But then there's another like maybe denatalogical rationale,
which we just talked about, or ethics based,
where you're like, just because it exists doesn't
mean that it's right.
So like it's interesting what you're bringing up.
And I haven't really thought about it before.
So these are all new thoughts to me.
They're not well thought out.
But kind of what is what what I'm
thinking that follows from what you're saying is
(19:43):
that there's the mechanical side of the art
of training.
But then one thing that we need to
maybe build skill about is understanding how reasoning
works.
Because a lot of what we confront or
even does not confront, maybe that's too of
a powerful word when we reflect on our
(20:03):
work of clients.
Like a lot of it is people logically
explaining their own behavior in a way that
disorientates us.
Does that make sense?
It makes a little bit of sense.
Yeah.
I think I see where you're going with
this.
Let me see if I've got this.
So it almost sounds like you're saying that
people would be projecting their own thoughts and
(20:25):
belief systems onto almost their their training.
Is that what I'm picking up?
Yes.
And the leashes are bad because they limit
control or whatever that was.
The leashes are bad because they restrict the
movement of dogs.
Like that's like someone's maybe ethics and values
put into logic that in certain contexts is
(20:48):
logical and rational.
But it says because it's logical and rational,
therefore we shouldn't use leashes.
And then there's like a this equals this
statement because of this equals this.
That is, I think, for the user of
(21:09):
those types of rationales, something that firstly, one,
they probably don't intentionally aim to manipulate others
with.
But secondly, it's a reinforcing method of communicating
values and ideas.
But it's quite disorienting.
(21:29):
It can be really disorientating, especially if done
well to the to the end user.
It absolutely can be.
And I can I can also see this
going further into the argument and going, well,
if leashes aren't all bad and we have
to use them because they're a fact of
life, then isn't that the same thing about
(21:49):
an e-caller?
Can't we say the same thing about an
e-caller?
So like I can see how if we
don't, if we are incapable of because this
is a learned skill, if we are incapable
of holding two seemingly opposing truths in our
mind at the same time, then, yeah, that's
where this logical statement will take you.
(22:11):
And I think it is true for me
to be able to say leashes are just
a fact of life and I can work
around them.
And also, I don't use e-callers in
my training because I believe a certain set
of moral and ethical things that lead me
to not want to use them.
(22:32):
So I think we can do that.
Yeah, and I think some of you said
they really caught my attention.
And that is our ability to hold two
truths simultaneously.
So that's a disorientating part, I think, for
a lot of people.
It really is.
Like I can respect your experience.
(22:52):
I can respect your perception.
I can expect how you're what you're feeling
and your emotional experience around this topic.
And I can also respect it and appreciate
my own.
And to have those two things happen simultaneously
(23:13):
for me anyway, like I find that hard.
Like and I'm learning to do that better.
I mean, I'm just even learning that it
exists, I think.
But I think how that circles back into
this conversation is that and tell me if
I'm wrong, but that makes me more artful
in our industry as an operator.
(23:34):
It sure does, in my opinion.
It sure does.
It's because you, in my opinion, and tell
me if this is holding true for you.
But you are a person because of this
skill that you are now honing.
You are able to take in someone else's
perspective who you're having a conversation with, maybe
someone who you don't necessarily 100 percent agree
(23:57):
with.
And you are able to truly mull over
what they are saying objectively and then find
an in to interject your own thoughts and
your own opinions, which might not align in
a way that can also be received.
Yeah.
And that last part, in a way that
can also be received is important.
(24:17):
So I think there's firstly just being able
to tease apart the separate components, tease apart.
Like if someone's offering you a type of
reasoning that defends is not the right word,
that makes their own behavior reasonable and rational.
(24:42):
Man, this is muddy, so bear with me
and feed back to me what I'm saying.
It doesn't mean that them offering rationale or
communication styles around that matches the motivation for
them using those those communication styles like, you
(25:03):
know, it does because, you know, because they're
a person who doesn't do silly things.
So if they're doing silly things, then they
rationale their silly things.
Yeah.
And I see that a lot.
And so then back to what you just
said is that that's OK.
But this is your real experience right now.
I want to share that.
(25:24):
I'm not trying to take away from that.
I'm not trying to diminish that in any
way.
And I'm hearing it.
And at the same time, here's my perspective.
And to deliver that is skillfully is artful,
I would say.
Yeah, I would.
I would agree.
And I would say two main things taught
me this, this, this skill, this.
(25:45):
I'm only just starting to put language around
it as well.
But it's a skill I've been developing for
a number of years.
And the two things that I attribute the
skill building to are, number one, like we
discussed last week, therapy.
Therapy was very big for me to learn
how to discern, hold multiple perspectives in my
(26:05):
mind, parse through them, pick them apart a
little bit, really helpful there.
And then also Flash.
Flash Gordon taught me a lot about conversing
with a being who doesn't speak my language.
And I speak multiple languages fluently.
So I, I and I am really good
(26:27):
at picking apart what other people are trying
to say, even if we can't speak like
I language.
Barriers aren't a barrier for me as much
as they could be.
Let's put it that way.
And that is because of my polyglot skills
and also because of my skills of learning
how to talk to Flash.
I needed him to listen to me and
(26:48):
to do the things I needed him to
do.
I needed this.
And he needed something from me and he
needed this.
And so in order for us to give
each other what we needed, we had to
learn how to talk to each other.
And we did not have common language.
So I had to learn.
I had to learn how to talk to
him.
I had to learn how to say, yes,
(27:09):
I understand that you are scared.
And also, I still need you to behave
a certain way.
I will.
I had to find a way to tell
him, I will still keep you safe, even
if you do this thing.
And he struggled with that.
So did I.
So could we refrain?
I mean, based on just where the conversation
has gone.
Hmm.
That this is this the science and art
(27:31):
of being a professional trainer as opposed to
being a trainer, could we, is the question.
And how they fought and safety is such
a key reinforcer.
And when if you the listener have read
the book, Crucial Conversations, have you read that,
(27:52):
Adam?
I've I've read it.
But that's what that whole book is about.
Like safety, like creating safety in conversation so
that people can add to the pool of
meaning and can contribute from from a space
of safety, which is what you talked about
with Flash Gordon then.
But then transferring those skills onto human learners
(28:15):
when you've thrown the complexity of language and
what that provides for us that it doesn't
provide for dogs or other species like sarcasm
is is one that comes to mind.
Like, you know, like we're not as far
as I know, and I could be wrong,
getting sarcasm from our non-human learners.
Right.
And language like muddies it so much with
(28:36):
the nuances that can it can give humans
when they're conversing with each other.
I also have to build on that point.
That's a very excellent point about sarcasm to
build on it.
We don't even do sarcasm right as a
species, as as people.
Nobody like if we did sarcasm, right, everybody
(28:58):
would understand it every single time without without
an issue.
But we have so many different neurotypes and
we have so many different cultural ideas of
what sarcasm looks like.
It looks different for me when I was
living in Saudi Arabia than what it looks
like now living in the United States.
Sarcasm is a very different thing.
(29:19):
Culturally, so like we can't even do calls
like sarcasm.
Right.
And quote unquote.
So if we can't do that, right, how
are we going to do these deep, meaningful,
understanding, insightful conversations?
Right.
Right.
So then if we if we take it
back to the art and science of training,
(29:39):
then I don't know the answer to your
question.
But what it makes me think about is
that what you learn from Flash Gordon or
what we learn from any non-human learner.
And then and then we've got the mechanical
part of the art of training.
And we haven't really even talked about the
science of training, but we've got the observation
skills, the delivery, the reinforcement systems, control, motivation,
(30:03):
relationships, all of that stuff, which as we
develop through experience, our skill and are able
to apply those things well and in real
time, kind of become or help us become
artistic in my personal opinion.
But then another part of this, I think,
(30:24):
and it ties it back to what we're
talking about now, is that artistry as well.
And then and this is all just atomisms
and Ryanisms every one rather than pretty much
what we're pulling from the literature, is that
cross-species application of the science.
So being a dog trainer and then coming
(30:46):
and working with birds or reptiles or something,
there's there's there's some artistry in that aspect.
But then the biggest potentially for a lot
of people, we're all individuals.
Artistry comes in taking that science and applying
it to others, throwing in the murkiness of
conversation, language, culture, and also applying it to
(31:13):
yourself.
There's a different level of artistry in there.
What are your thoughts?
Absolutely.
I agree.
And I would think that the first level
of artistry comes in with understanding the science.
If you understand it really, really, really well.
And if you understand that the science is
meant to be descriptive and not prescriptive, especially
(31:35):
that I think that is a huge important
thing.
So like one of the things like let's
go back to to the leash example.
One of the things that I that have
helped me teach successfully teach three of my
own personal dogs.
I've only had four for for the reference.
(31:56):
So three out of four.
Not bad.
The fourth one is an 11 month old.
I'll take it anyway.
Is my understanding of how the basics of
like the basics of how consequences can affect
behavior.
So like the quadrants, basically how to lean
in on the concepts of reinforcement, how when
when you add or take away something that
(32:18):
can have an effect on the frequency of
a behavior, of making it happen more often.
And if we find the things that of
what to add or in some cases what
to take away to make a behavior happen
more often, then we can start to influence
behavior kindly and effectively.
And so we have taken that a lot
to mean we add food to make behavior
(32:40):
happen.
And then we systematically build up the distractions.
But the problems that we tend to face
with our clients, with our own dogs, if
we're not careful, is a splitting problem.
And I think the art of the training
comes in how we split.
So if we're going to get into the
mechanics of it, the first level of artistry,
(33:02):
understanding, really, really, really understanding the nitty gritty
of it.
Might I plug LLA Learning and Living with
Animals, Susan Friedman's course, Dr. Susan Friedman's course
for that.
That'll be a really good resource for a
lot of people.
And then the the next level above that
is really getting good at splitting behavior.
(33:23):
If you can find a split like Hannah
Branigan can find a split, then you're golden.
No one can find a split like Hannah
Branigan can find a split.
And I think that right there is where
we have to start our artistry journey is
first we need to learn.
So like with with what graphic design, it's
(33:43):
color theory.
Let's bring in a theory of splitting and
science there.
Yeah, lots of examples are coming to mind
as you're saying that.
So let's talk about these and see how
they fit in.
One's just left my brain, but it'll come
back to me.
This one was like, OK, at a wildlife
park a few weeks ago and working with
(34:06):
their koala team.
And they were doing a specific, they're providing
specific antecedents and consequences.
And we had a discussion about how what
was being learned and what can be changed.
(34:27):
And I realized just how hard what I
was asking of these people was.
Right.
It's like I'm saying to you that you've
been doing this certain behavior in this certain
context for so long.
The only reason you do that behavior is
because there's reinforcement there for you, otherwise you
(34:50):
wouldn't do it.
And I'm asking you now to ignore your
reinforcement history and what works for you in
this context, apart from this conversation, influencing that,
doing a whole new behavior in this context.
And that has no reinforcement history and do
that.
And I kind of feel like I don't
(35:12):
know the best way to describe this, but
like your biology is physically going to be
fighting you to do that.
And the other one is like, yes, I
stole this joke off Susan, and I say
it quite a lot.
It's like she's like, I wish like presenter
Susan, I wish presenter Ryan, when I'm presenting
on Crucial Conversations, could talk to husband Ryan
(35:32):
and like apply those skills, like taking those
skills that Crucial Conversations teaches us or how
to create safety for others in conversations and
that I can apply successfully in a work
context but applying them in real time in
the flux and dynamicness of our house with
(35:53):
animals and kids and the chaos.
You know, I suck at generalizing my own
behavior, so it just doesn't generalize into that
space.
But I like I can see clearly how
like shape splitting would would fall into those
categories.
But I'd love to hear your perspective.
(36:13):
Absolutely.
That example you gave of you going in
and asking these keepers to just ignore everything
they've ever done and do something different for
zero reinforcement history.
Isn't that kind of what we're asking our
dogs to do when we start them on
a behavior modification journey?
Isn't that kind of what we're doing?
And so I think it's a very important
(36:34):
piece, a split, if you will, that we
forget to do often when when training anyone,
when working with anyone, but especially with our
dogs.
Is this split of first?
Can you do this behavior without any distractions
around?
That is that is truly the first split.
(36:56):
And that and a lot of people think
or the way they behave tells me that
they think that generalizing their behavior in five
different locations.
OK, so we did it at home.
We did it at the training center.
We did at the park.
We always go to.
We went to the mall parking lot and
we went to insert other location here.
(37:18):
What about when we walk down the street
and turn left at the at the corner
intersection?
Did you did you practice it there without
a dog?
Because that's where the dogs show up that
the problems take place.
That doesn't really happen at the mall parking
lot.
It doesn't.
So we forget the split between.
OK, now can you do it in context,
(37:41):
but without the trigger?
And now can you do it in context,
but with a harder, with not a harder,
with an easier trigger?
So, for example, can you sit and eat
a scatter or lie down and eat a
scatter or watch me or do whatever it
is that you want your dog to do
instead of bark and lunge?
While there is maybe your brother who lives
(38:02):
in the same house as you, who you
do not have aggression issues with, is walking
down the street with another handler.
Can you do that?
That is a split that we don't often
think about.
Can you do it with a stuffed dog
kind of staring at you from further down
the street?
Because those stuffed dogs can look pretty wonky
at you and give the hairy eyeball.
(38:24):
Can you do it if you're if you
have a toy driven dog?
I have a toy driven dog right now.
My my 11 month old boxer, he's very
toy driven.
I am currently teaching him how to stay
on a station using a toy.
Like, can you do this while I'm swinging
your beloved tuggy around?
No, then there's no way I can ask
you to do this with another dog working.
Those are the splits I want to start
(38:45):
thinking about outside the box splits of what
can you do it around?
What have I tested you doing it around
before asking you to do it around your
hardest triggers?
I was watching Free Willy last night with
my wife, really wanted my daughter to watch
it.
And I do what every animal trainer does
(39:05):
around, like judging the training as it's happening
in the movie.
And to me, my wife's like, you're judging
it, aren't you?
I'm like, no, and Free Willy wouldn't perform
for the little child, wouldn't do the cute
behaviours.
Don't like that word perform, but wouldn't didn't
want to offer the cute behaviours in the
presence of all of the kids tapping on
the the glass.
(39:26):
And Ryan's brain's going, you haven't taught this
destruction yet.
OK, back to the keepers.
By the way, like just take this opportunity
to share this really cool thing that you
can do.
I've been doing recently on these consoles is
using your phone to record the whole conversation,
taking that transcript, putting it in Chazza, aka
(39:47):
ChagPT, coming up with a really detailed transcript
of everything you covered.
So we did this.
And I'm glad to say in that we
did.
We did say you need to practice this
without your koala first.
And with the a peer, a colleague pretending
to be a koala or whatever, you need
to set that up successfully.
(40:09):
And we teach these guys to teach and
they got ways of teaching each other new
skills and then all of the stuff to
break down as much as we can.
But I'm also aware as part of my
art, artistry, my developing artistry that, you know,
in 10 years from now, I'm hoping I
listen back to me saying that and slap
my forehead into my palm and be like,
(40:30):
you didn't know what you were talking about
back then.
That's that's a sign of growth for me.
But is that I'm aware of my reinforcers.
OK, cool.
I'm going to teach these koala keepers to
do this, these things.
And I need management to look at what
we're achieving here and thinking that their return
on investment for bringing me into the space
(40:53):
is going to be something that reinforces that
behavior, you know, and and there's all of
these.
So as an operator, I've got my own
reinforcers in that context and trying to bypass
the process that I know we need to
take.
Right.
Because there's other reinforcers at play.
(41:15):
But yeah, I think I think you're right.
Hopefully we'll do that.
Time will tell.
We'll talk about it in a future episode.
So let's start, let's stay on this track.
That is the art and science of training
and the art and science of being a
practitioner.
What is what is this like?
And if I've gone too far off field,
(41:36):
tell me.
But what is what is the science part
of this thing?
Like, how do we how do we scientifically
be a practitioner?
Thoughts are coming to me as I ask
that question.
But I want to hear your thoughts by
educating ourselves as much as we can, by
educating ourselves, being open to that education, being
receiving to that education and learning from those
(41:57):
who are true artists in our fields, from
learning from people who are true scientists in
our field.
And I think our bestie, Dr. Susan Friedman,
is both.
I think she embodies what it is to
be an artist of a dog trainer, an
artist of a practitioner.
And I think starting with a course like
(42:21):
Living and Learning with Animals, I think learning
what you want to do with certifying through
Control Unleashed.
I think certifying with competent bodies that that
teach skill, that look at your skill, that's
Control Unleashed does that.
(42:42):
KPA, CTP does that.
LLA tests your knowledge, getting your certifications through
different things.
Those ways will test your knowledge of the
science more than I can.
Things those are the things that I would
like people to do to in order to
make sure that they have the science down
(43:04):
really, really hard.
I am one of those people who I'm
really, really good at understanding it.
I'm not very good at regurgitating it.
So that's why I had to learn to
become an artist is because all I did
was regurgitate facts for a long time and
nobody understood anything.
It went over people's heads or I said
it wrong or this or that.
(43:26):
And so once I started, things are just
falling on me, I guess.
Once I just once I started caring less
about making sure I got the words right
and caring more that I made sure I
got the concept across right.
That's when we started seeing success in both
my professional career and also as in my
(43:48):
chops as a trainer, as like just a
trainer.
So do I really need to know that
I am going on a differential reinforcement of
other of alternative behaviors journey?
Do I really need to know that?
Yes, yes, I do.
I need to know that.
But does your client need to know that?
Not really.
(44:08):
Things like that.
So you need to know in order to
be an artist, you need to know the
medium with which you are using and the
medium of which you are using is applied
behavioral analysis, right?
And then what your what your client needs
to know and using applied behavior analysis for
me, how this is is making sense is
all of this messiness I have around these
(44:30):
thoughts.
Some of them that we've shared today in
this podcast episode are relatively new to me.
I like meeting and turning into this.
You know, you know, when you get played
over different colors and you're like, that's what's
happening in my mind right now.
It's like you need you need applied behavior
analysis to apply to your non-human learners,
to apply to your clients, to apply to
yourself.
(44:52):
That's a really exciting journey, I think.
And then another Susanism, and then I'll throw
this at you because I want to hear
your thoughts on it, that I say, I
say a lot.
And I think it's so relevant for what
you've said there is learn all of this
stuff, learn about what differential reinforcement of different
kinds of differential reinforcement means and all of
(45:13):
the jargon science, what we can take from
the literature, whether you're reading literature or reading
textbooks or whatever your sources, living and learning
of animals, control, unleashed certification, whatever it is.
I think this skill and I still feel
(45:33):
like I'm grasping this and grasping how to
best help others take away what I struggle
to put into words is taking all of
that information, leaving it at the door and
then stepping in front of your individual learner
to see what they're telling you now.
I can hear my inner Susan coming out
when I say that that is that is
for me where this ball of playdough in
(45:57):
my mind is is landing me towards the
end of this conversation.
When I say that to you, what does
it make you think?
I think that is a perfect explanation.
I think that is exactly it.
I think in order to become a true
artist, you have to practice.
You just have to do it.
You have to leave every preconceived notion when
(46:19):
you are practicing, when you are applying your
knowledge, when you are honing your skills, take
every preconceived notion, leave it at the door
and just see what the animal in front
of you is telling you.
So you may think you are applying a
positive reinforcement strategy for one of your dogs
to teach a specific skill, for example.
(46:40):
But then looking back at the video, because
we always record everything we do, don't we?
So we can review it all.
So when reviewing that video, you might find
that what was happening wasn't, in fact, a
positive reinforcement contingency, but rather a negative reinforcement
contingency.
I've had that happen recently in a training
session with my 11 month old who I
(47:03):
was teaching him a kickback stand from a
sit.
And he gave me the most perfect offer
to kickback stand.
And in the moment, I thought it was
the coolest thing in the world until I
reviewed the video and I realized I had
leaned into him.
And that is when he kickback stand stood.
And I leaned back in order to click
and reinforce him and did not realize in
(47:23):
that moment what I had done.
And so in that moment, could he have
learned?
Yes, obviously he did.
He learned that that was a behavior I
was searching for from him.
But in that particular moment, what was the
contingency at play?
It was not positive reinforcement, even though I
positively reinforced my dog for doing the thing.
It was actually a negative reinforcement contingency.
(47:45):
And so we have to be aware of
these things.
Where are we looking?
What are we doing?
What are we accidentally doing?
We have to practice, like you said, without
your animals first.
How are you going to practice?
How are you going to get it right
with the koalas if you don't practice without
the koalas first?
You have to know exactly what you want
to do in every moment of every contingency
(48:05):
that comes up.
And you can't do that if you haven't
first practiced by yourself.
That is a split that most people don't
think of.
Yeah, it makes me think about you to
know exactly what to do and the situation.
And that's what we we teach with those
koala keepers as well via a specific tool
that Emily Johnson and Ava Bertelsen taught me
(48:28):
called flowcharting.
And I just imagine Ava and Emily's mind
has been these flowcharts just happening organically in
their mind.
Let's wrap up this conversation.
And if you will, I'll wrap it up
with a quote.
And this is from the end of the
article, The Art of Training by Steve Martin.
It says the most artistic animal trainers understand
(48:51):
their opportunity and obligation to provide the best
care and management for the animals in their
charge, as well as the opportunities to influence,
inspire and empower others.
In this relatively young and limited field, this
was 2006, everyone of animal training, we are
all artists in our own right.
Our passions, our skills, our knowledge of training
(49:11):
and of our animals are gifts that we
can share with others.
When we pass them on to other trainers,
we can improve their performance and ultimately the
lives of the animals in their care.
And for me, that's what it's all about.
What about you, Adam?
I agree.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I could sing that quote from the rooftops.
It's beautiful, isn't it?
I like it.
I read that.
I was like, oh, yeah, let's see if
(49:32):
there's an opportunity to include that in the
end.
Sadly, though, that does bring us to the
end.
I do have one more question for you.
I don't know if I share this with
you in advance.
I'm getting bad at remembering to do that.
But that is I just want to hear
people's visions for the future.
And we've been asking this now for four,
nine years, nine, ten years.
I lose track of how long we've been
doing this podcast.
But that question is, what do you want
(49:53):
to see happen over the next five, ten
years in the animal training world?
And that's why it's cool that we've been
asking it for that long now, because what
we've found is that no matter where you
are in the world, no matter what species
you're working with, no matter what industries you're
in, we're often always singing the same song.
And in your words, I would like to
hear what you would like to see happen
over the next five, ten years, Adam.
(50:13):
I would like to see more curiosity take
place.
I would like to see more people asking
why.
How?
What?
And I really would love to see a
shift towards understanding.
The captive animals in our care, and I
(50:34):
think that shift has already begun.
We are seeing welfare as this big, important
first piece, and I would like to see
it continue going in that direction.
I don't want it to be a wave
that ebbs out and flows back into the
ocean just when it's hitting critical mass.
I want it to keep going.
(50:54):
Ellie Bender and Emily Strong did a podcast
episode on curiosity recently.
And when I asked Susan a couple of
years ago to do something with us and
say, what would you most like to do
with our membership?
She said she wanted to do a webinar
on critical thinking.
(51:14):
Yes, I love that vision, love curiosity, let's
get more curious.
Thanks for sharing everything today with us, Adam.
Could you just remind everyone listening before we
wrap up where they can go to find
out more about you, what you do and
get in touch?
Absolutely.
You can find me on my website, flashofbrilliantstogs
(51:35):
.com or you can find me through Facebook.
My name is as it's spelled.
You can find me easily, unfortunately.
And on Instagram at flashofbrilliantstogs.
That's the handle there.
Fantastic.
And we will, of course, link to all
of us in the show notes as well.
Adam, this has been so much fun for
myself.
And on behalf of everyone listening, we really
(51:56):
appreciate you taking the time to come and
hang out with us on the show today.
Thank you so much.
It has been my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(52:17):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
(52:37):
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(52:59):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills.
Stay awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
(53:19):
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
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It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
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Therefore, since 2015 we have been on a
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We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
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Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
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And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
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you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will get started on today's episode where
I am thrilled to welcome back to the
podcast for part two of our conversation, the
awesome Adam Scandarani.
(01:53):
And if you haven't listened to the first
part of our conversation, you can find it
in the previous episode on whatever app you
are listening to the show on.
In that episode, we explored Adam's journey and
getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and
what led her to current work with a
flash of brilliance dog training.
(02:14):
And it's definitely worth a listen.
However, if you haven't done so, you are
of course welcome to start here with part
two.
We are still going to gain a ton
of insights to help you grow your skills,
knowledge, and confidence in animal training.
So let's dive in.
Adam, welcome back to the show.
We're grateful to have you join us again
at Animal Training Academy.
(02:34):
Thank you for being here.
It is my pleasure to be here again.
Thank you for having me back.
My pleasure.
The pleasure is ours, a massive in capital
letters.
Thank you.
And in this episode, I'm really looking forward
to geeking out on this idea of the
art and science of animal training, which for
(02:55):
you, the listener, you might've heard mentioned in
multiple different areas of our field.
For me this morning, I was reflecting back
before we jumped onto record about where I
first heard of this concept.
And I think it was, I was telling
you, Adam, before we pushed record, I think
it was from the US based primarily exotics
(03:17):
trainer and head of the fantastic natural encounters
incorporated Steve Martin.
And it was in an article from 2006
called the art of training.
And then when I Googled it this morning,
trying to remember like where, like who did,
where did I hear this from?
The name of an awesome conference also popped
(03:39):
up organized by a group of trainers out
of the university of North Texas called the
art and science of animal training organized by
a group called Orca, which I to the
best of my knowledge don't think is still
ongoing, but it might be wrong.
So when you mentioned this anyway, to me,
Adam, in a conversation we had when we
(03:59):
caught up last month that you wanted to
dive into this, I was all in.
And we at the time threw back and
forth a number of ideas.
And this is what you landed on that
you most wanted to discuss.
Can you share with the listeners why you
thought you wanted to use this opportunity to
talk specifically about that?
(04:21):
Yeah, I would love to, I came to
this conclusion because over my time as like
over the course of my time as a
dog trainer, as a professional dog trainer, who
is also a millennial and scours the internet
for all sorts of drama all of the
time.
I love other people's drama.
(04:41):
If I don't have to be involved in
it, I just want to consume it.
It's great.
Reality TV was made for me, except that
it doesn't entertain me the way Facebook does.
But the point is I've come to learn
a lot of opinions while scouring through Facebook
groups and everything.
And I have learned that there are quite
a few cultural shifts in positive reinforcement training
(05:06):
taking place that worry me a little bit.
They are seemingly headed in the right direction.
And yet if you look a little bit
closer, we're not seeing all the pieces of
the puzzle that needs to be fit into
place in order for this to actually be
(05:26):
a good shift.
And that shift that I'm looking at specifically
is this cultural fog that we have to
give like our animals are captive animals and
we know that our dogs are captive animals
and we know that.
And so therefore we have to give them
the best, most enriching life that we can.
And that is very, very true.
(05:47):
And also the ways in which we go
about it can accidentally build in behaviors that
we don't want.
A good example of how that looks is
really, really sloppy positive reinforcement training.
If we don't know what the functional reinforcements
at play are, if we don't know what
(06:08):
the dog's motivators are, if we don't know
what we're doing in terms of timing or
if our observation skills aren't quite as high
as we need them to be in this
particular context in this particular moment.
And so it came to my, it came
to me to mind that there is more
(06:29):
to positive reinforcement training than just the science
behind it, which is what people are trying
to apply.
There's also an art to it and learning
how to become an artist, I guess, is
in and of itself, a journey it's in
and of itself, a journey.
And it's in and of itself, what, where
(06:51):
you have to go to kind of build
in this idea of what we want to
do for our captive animals in our care
and give them that really good enriching life
and give them as much agency as we
can and provide them with as many choices
as they can possibly handle, et cetera, et
cetera.
(07:11):
And so that's kind of where it came
to me.
I just really want to be able to
give people a different perspective into what training
can look like to be kind and effective.
I like reality TV as well, but I
don't feel comfortable sharing the programs.
You don't have to, it's okay.
(07:33):
That'll be our little secret.
Me and my wife, sometimes we'll digest a
series of something.
However, just I think there's value in discussing
the, how do we say it?
The conversations that happen on social media.
I'm kind of like a hundred percent, not
(07:56):
kind of like I like just avoid it
myself for multiple reasons.
One, like running a business and being a
dad, like and working from home a lot
of the time, it's so challenging to have
(08:17):
clearly defined boundaries for yourself.
And other members of your family.
And it's really blurry about where one stops
and one finishes.
So it's challenging to, and there's an art
in this as well.
And I think in developing the skills to
be physically present as well as mentally present
(08:38):
when you're, you know, left the office and
that's true as well, if you're working away
from home.
But, you know, I want to be like
mentally present when I'm with my family.
And so I stay away from drama because
I feel like that occupies my mental space
for me.
And also like, just time.
(08:58):
It always like when there's like a significant
conversation that's happening, a lot of it generally
finds its way into Animal Training Academy because
people are involved that are in our community
or people want to share about it in
our community.
So eventually I will listen to it.
But am I understanding that you're a little
(09:19):
bit maybe on the other side of the
bell curve to me?
You're like quite interested in reading and participating.
I'm not sure if those are two different
things because we can have observers and we
can have participators.
And there's no right or wrong in terms
of who you are, who I am, who
you listen to.
I'm just trying to understand, are you kind
(09:40):
of like in the trenches?
Yeah.
So I am much more of a listener
than I am a participator.
I used to be very big in the
participating part back when I did not have
as clear defined boundaries as I do now,
back when I was younger and much more
hotheaded than I am these days.
So yeah, once upon a time I was
(10:00):
a participator and nowadays I'm far more an
observer and I find it very important to
me because it helps me also learn some
of my audience.
A lot of these trainer fights that we're
seeing on the internet that I label as
trainer fights aren't actually happening between professional trainers.
(10:22):
They're happening between hobby trainers, people who are
training their first dogs, people who are training
their third dogs, but who are not often
professional trainers or who are just starting out
on their professional journey, much like how I
was.
I am not saying that as a way
(10:43):
to draw negatively on any of these groups
of people.
That is not at all where I'm trying
to go with this.
What I'm trying to say is it is
often with people who have half the picture,
if that makes sense, half of what is
going on.
And so we need to have the full
story, the full picture to be able to
see what's happening.
(11:03):
And as our favorite person to quote, well,
my favorite person to quote, Dr. Susan Friedman
says behavior is just a study of one.
And so that's kind of where I'm leaning
with this is yes, we want to talk
about our knowledge.
We want to talk about what we know
and we want to talk about what we
think is best for the welfare of the
(11:25):
animals in our care.
And also there are different ways to go
about it.
And internet fights are not the way I
go about it anymore, but I still like
to watch them.
I still like to observe them because I
like to see where the mood is going
with the people who I tend to, who
listen to me as my audience, who converse
with me as colleagues, who talk to me
(11:47):
as clients, who all of these people on
the internet are all potential clients for me.
They're all potential colleagues.
They're all potential friends.
They're all potential whatever.
So I would like to see where the
mood is going.
It helps me assess where we are talking
about in terms of like the big one
recently that I was been mulling over is
(12:07):
the credentialing bodies, for example, what do we
want to do there?
And so I want to hear what people
have to say.
I want to know where people are going
with their opinions and it helps me understand
them a little bit better and understand myself
a little bit better.
So that's kind of where I'm going with
this.
Yeah, they're all really interesting thoughts that make
(12:32):
me, you've just gone, oh man, maybe I
should be reading more of this stuff.
I'm not going to in 2025, but like
what you said makes a lot of sense
to me is what I'm trying to say.
And you used the word cultural fog earlier,
which is another Susanism and that I think
(12:56):
is an adequate one and a good one,
adept, I don't know the word I'm looking
for, a good one to describe what's going
on online.
Do you want to share with the listeners
who might not be familiar with that terminology,
what you mean when you say cultural fog?
Yeah.
So a cultural fog is kind of just
(13:16):
the culture around experiences going on around us.
So in terms of that, that's just my
basic.
I did not look up actually Susan's actual
definition of it.
But essentially in the dog world, in the
positive reinforcement realm of the world, we have
some ideas that we hold really strongly to
about what is and is not good dog
(13:37):
training.
And some of these things are cultural norms
versus scientifically proven, in fact, kind of things.
And those are kind of where the cultural
shifts tend to take place and tend to
happen.
And those are the cultural fogs in which
we have to kind of maneuver and work
(13:58):
through to kind of either get out on
the other side of or shift if some
of them need shifting, things like that.
Awesome.
And I don't know if Susan has a
specific article just on that topic or mentioned
as part of a large article.
I'll have to revisit that.
But there's a whole suite of articles on
(14:22):
Susan's website BehaviourWorks.org if you, the listener,
wanted to learn more about that topic and
a whole range of other Susanisms.
So we've got science of training and the
art of training.
And I think there's different ways to look
at the art side.
And when I started recording today, I'm curious
(14:42):
if I had kind of a different idea
in my head as to what you just
described.
So let's check in on that.
And happy to talk about whatever is most
valuable.
So you're talking more than just the mechanical
application of the skills of training.
So you're talking more than just my timing,
(15:03):
my reinforcement systems, understanding motivation, relationships, positive
reinforcement, cue delivery, all of that kind of
stuff.
You're talking more about being an operator than
the industry as a professional trainer.
Am I understanding?
A little bit of both.
So I want to talk a little bit
about the mechanics of training, your timing, your
(15:28):
observation skills, your cues, all of that, and
also how cultural fogs or cultural norms can
affect your ability to hone those skills effectively.
So a good example for this would be
one of the cultural fogs that I have
(15:50):
is I've even heard opinions go as deeply
as leashes are bad because they restrict the
choices of dogs.
And that is a cultural fog that I
have heard multiple times on the Internet.
I don't know people personally who believe in
that, but I do know that it is
(16:11):
an opinion that is out there.
And you know what?
Let's.
Yeah, yeah.
Leashes do restrict the choices that our dogs
can make.
And it's a fact of life that we
have to live with, at least in North
America.
And to talk about that, like I want
my dog to be super comfortable in his
own skin and happy enough to be around
(16:31):
me.
The fact that he is on a leash
is of no consequence.
I do not want that leash to be
the tool that keeps my dog with me.
That tool of control over my dog.
I just want it to be on my
dog because the law tells me I have
to.
And I think that is where artistry comes
into it.
If we are stuck with leashes and they
are just a fact of life, then what
(16:53):
do we do with them?
Do we use them to yank and crank
our dogs around?
Or can we just teach our dogs that
being around us is enjoyable and give them
skills that they need in order to just
manage themselves on those on on those leashes
that are restricting their choices and their ability
to move their bodies freely?
And so that's kind of an example of
(17:13):
where we're sorry.
That's one of the examples where we can
go from the idea is a cultural norm,
an idea that people have and how it
can affect your mechanics and your skills and
your ability to be an effective, positive reinforcement
trainer.
Yeah, this is something that I've been thinking
about a lot recently and haven't really contemplated
(17:37):
too much.
I think both one in my own life,
41 years of it and in this podcast.
And that is to do that effectively.
I think to be able to navigate cultural
fog takes a level of understanding about reasoning.
(17:57):
Your leashes, what was it?
Leashes are bad.
So say that again.
Oh, sorry.
The example that I had used are leashes
are bad because they restrict the choices a
dog can make or the freedom of movement.
Right.
And so like this, I think as you
were talking, forgive me for multitasking, but I
(18:18):
was asking my mate Chazza, Chaz GPT like
what kind of reasoning this is like leashes
are bad because and it came out something
called denatalogical rational, which is like ethics based
reasoning.
Right.
Like it's I have values and ethics.
And so that I create reasoning based on
that.
And then I put that out into the
(18:39):
world.
And as the receiver of this information, it
can be really hard to.
It's quite, I think, disorientating because like these
truths people present truth.
So another one that I was just just
contemplating recently is the argument that, oh, punishment
and the aversives modifying behavior is just a
(19:00):
natural part of what occurs on this planet.
And that being used as a logic to
say, therefore, like we should use it, we
should have them in our tool belt.
And like like like if you haven't thought
about that before or aren't familiar with different
types of reasoning, I think that can really
disorientate you because you can't you can't really
argue with the fact that that that like
(19:21):
makes sense.
But then there's another like maybe denatalogical rationale,
which we just talked about, or ethics based,
where you're like, just because it exists doesn't
mean that it's right.
So like it's interesting what you're bringing up.
And I haven't really thought about it before.
So these are all new thoughts to me.
They're not well thought out.
But kind of what is what what I'm
thinking that follows from what you're saying is
(19:43):
that there's the mechanical side of the art
of training.
But then one thing that we need to
maybe build skill about is understanding how reasoning
works.
Because a lot of what we confront or
even does not confront, maybe that's too of
a powerful word when we reflect on our
(20:03):
work of clients.
Like a lot of it is people logically
explaining their own behavior in a way that
disorientates us.
Does that make sense?
It makes a little bit of sense.
Yeah.
I think I see where you're going with
this.
Let me see if I've got this.
So it almost sounds like you're saying that
people would be projecting their own thoughts and
(20:25):
belief systems onto almost their their training.
Is that what I'm picking up?
Yes.
And the leashes are bad because they limit
control or whatever that was.
The leashes are bad because they restrict the
movement of dogs.
Like that's like someone's maybe ethics and values
put into logic that in certain contexts is
(20:48):
logical and rational.
But it says because it's logical and rational,
therefore we shouldn't use leashes.
And then there's like a this equals this
statement because of this equals this.
That is, I think, for the user of
(21:09):
those types of rationales, something that firstly, one,
they probably don't intentionally aim to manipulate others
with.
But secondly, it's a reinforcing method of communicating
values and ideas.
But it's quite disorienting.
(21:29):
It can be really disorientating, especially if done
well to the to the end user.
It absolutely can be.
And I can I can also see this
going further into the argument and going, well,
if leashes aren't all bad and we have
to use them because they're a fact of
life, then isn't that the same thing about
(21:49):
an e-caller?
Can't we say the same thing about an
e-caller?
So like I can see how if we
don't, if we are incapable of because this
is a learned skill, if we are incapable
of holding two seemingly opposing truths in our
mind at the same time, then, yeah, that's
where this logical statement will take you.
(22:11):
And I think it is true for me
to be able to say leashes are just
a fact of life and I can work
around them.
And also, I don't use e-callers in
my training because I believe a certain set
of moral and ethical things that lead me
to not want to use them.
(22:32):
So I think we can do that.
Yeah, and I think some of you said
they really caught my attention.
And that is our ability to hold two
truths simultaneously.
So that's a disorientating part, I think, for
a lot of people.
It really is.
Like I can respect your experience.
(22:52):
I can respect your perception.
I can expect how you're what you're feeling
and your emotional experience around this topic.
And I can also respect it and appreciate
my own.
And to have those two things happen simultaneously
(23:13):
for me anyway, like I find that hard.
Like and I'm learning to do that better.
I mean, I'm just even learning that it
exists, I think.
But I think how that circles back into
this conversation is that and tell me if
I'm wrong, but that makes me more artful
in our industry as an operator.
(23:34):
It sure does, in my opinion.
It sure does.
It's because you, in my opinion, and tell
me if this is holding true for you.
But you are a person because of this
skill that you are now honing.
You are able to take in someone else's
perspective who you're having a conversation with, maybe
someone who you don't necessarily 100 percent agree
(23:57):
with.
And you are able to truly mull over
what they are saying objectively and then find
an in to interject your own thoughts and
your own opinions, which might not align in
a way that can also be received.
Yeah.
And that last part, in a way that
can also be received is important.
(24:17):
So I think there's firstly just being able
to tease apart the separate components, tease apart.
Like if someone's offering you a type of
reasoning that defends is not the right word,
that makes their own behavior reasonable and rational.
(24:42):
Man, this is muddy, so bear with me
and feed back to me what I'm saying.
It doesn't mean that them offering rationale or
communication styles around that matches the motivation for
them using those those communication styles like, you
(25:03):
know, it does because, you know, because they're
a person who doesn't do silly things.
So if they're doing silly things, then they
rationale their silly things.
Yeah.
And I see that a lot.
And so then back to what you just
said is that that's OK.
But this is your real experience right now.
I want to share that.
(25:24):
I'm not trying to take away from that.
I'm not trying to diminish that in any
way.
And I'm hearing it.
And at the same time, here's my perspective.
And to deliver that is skillfully is artful,
I would say.
Yeah, I would.
I would agree.
And I would say two main things taught
me this, this, this skill, this.
(25:45):
I'm only just starting to put language around
it as well.
But it's a skill I've been developing for
a number of years.
And the two things that I attribute the
skill building to are, number one, like we
discussed last week, therapy.
Therapy was very big for me to learn
how to discern, hold multiple perspectives in my
(26:05):
mind, parse through them, pick them apart a
little bit, really helpful there.
And then also Flash.
Flash Gordon taught me a lot about conversing
with a being who doesn't speak my language.
And I speak multiple languages fluently.
So I, I and I am really good
(26:27):
at picking apart what other people are trying
to say, even if we can't speak like
I language.
Barriers aren't a barrier for me as much
as they could be.
Let's put it that way.
And that is because of my polyglot skills
and also because of my skills of learning
how to talk to Flash.
I needed him to listen to me and
(26:48):
to do the things I needed him to
do.
I needed this.
And he needed something from me and he
needed this.
And so in order for us to give
each other what we needed, we had to
learn how to talk to each other.
And we did not have common language.
So I had to learn.
I had to learn how to talk to
him.
I had to learn how to say, yes,
(27:09):
I understand that you are scared.
And also, I still need you to behave
a certain way.
I will.
I had to find a way to tell
him, I will still keep you safe, even
if you do this thing.
And he struggled with that.
So did I.
So could we refrain?
I mean, based on just where the conversation
has gone.
Hmm.
That this is this the science and art
(27:31):
of being a professional trainer as opposed to
being a trainer, could we, is the question.
And how they fought and safety is such
a key reinforcer.
And when if you the listener have read
the book, Crucial Conversations, have you read that,
(27:52):
Adam?
I've I've read it.
But that's what that whole book is about.
Like safety, like creating safety in conversation so
that people can add to the pool of
meaning and can contribute from from a space
of safety, which is what you talked about
with Flash Gordon then.
But then transferring those skills onto human learners
(28:15):
when you've thrown the complexity of language and
what that provides for us that it doesn't
provide for dogs or other species like sarcasm
is is one that comes to mind.
Like, you know, like we're not as far
as I know, and I could be wrong,
getting sarcasm from our non-human learners.
Right.
And language like muddies it so much with
(28:36):
the nuances that can it can give humans
when they're conversing with each other.
I also have to build on that point.
That's a very excellent point about sarcasm to
build on it.
We don't even do sarcasm right as a
species, as as people.
Nobody like if we did sarcasm, right, everybody
(28:58):
would understand it every single time without without
an issue.
But we have so many different neurotypes and
we have so many different cultural ideas of
what sarcasm looks like.
It looks different for me when I was
living in Saudi Arabia than what it looks
like now living in the United States.
Sarcasm is a very different thing.
(29:19):
Culturally, so like we can't even do calls
like sarcasm.
Right.
And quote unquote.
So if we can't do that, right, how
are we going to do these deep, meaningful,
understanding, insightful conversations?
Right.
Right.
So then if we if we take it
back to the art and science of training,
(29:39):
then I don't know the answer to your
question.
But what it makes me think about is
that what you learn from Flash Gordon or
what we learn from any non-human learner.
And then and then we've got the mechanical
part of the art of training.
And we haven't really even talked about the
science of training, but we've got the observation
skills, the delivery, the reinforcement systems, control, motivation,
(30:03):
relationships, all of that stuff, which as we
develop through experience, our skill and are able
to apply those things well and in real
time, kind of become or help us become
artistic in my personal opinion.
But then another part of this, I think,
(30:24):
and it ties it back to what we're
talking about now, is that artistry as well.
And then and this is all just atomisms
and Ryanisms every one rather than pretty much
what we're pulling from the literature, is that
cross-species application of the science.
So being a dog trainer and then coming
(30:46):
and working with birds or reptiles or something,
there's there's there's some artistry in that aspect.
But then the biggest potentially for a lot
of people, we're all individuals.
Artistry comes in taking that science and applying
it to others, throwing in the murkiness of
conversation, language, culture, and also applying it to
(31:13):
yourself.
There's a different level of artistry in there.
What are your thoughts?
Absolutely.
I agree.
And I would think that the first level
of artistry comes in with understanding the science.
If you understand it really, really, really well.
And if you understand that the science is
meant to be descriptive and not prescriptive, especially
(31:35):
that I think that is a huge important
thing.
So like one of the things like let's
go back to to the leash example.
One of the things that I that have
helped me teach successfully teach three of my
own personal dogs.
I've only had four for for the reference.
(31:56):
So three out of four.
Not bad.
The fourth one is an 11 month old.
I'll take it anyway.
Is my understanding of how the basics of
like the basics of how consequences can affect
behavior.
So like the quadrants, basically how to lean
in on the concepts of reinforcement, how when
when you add or take away something that
(32:18):
can have an effect on the frequency of
a behavior, of making it happen more often.
And if we find the things that of
what to add or in some cases what
to take away to make a behavior happen
more often, then we can start to influence
behavior kindly and effectively.
And so we have taken that a lot
to mean we add food to make behavior
(32:40):
happen.
And then we systematically build up the distractions.
But the problems that we tend to face
with our clients, with our own dogs, if
we're not careful, is a splitting problem.
And I think the art of the training
comes in how we split.
So if we're going to get into the
mechanics of it, the first level of artistry,
(33:02):
understanding, really, really, really understanding the nitty gritty
of it.
Might I plug LLA Learning and Living with
Animals, Susan Friedman's course, Dr. Susan Friedman's course
for that.
That'll be a really good resource for a
lot of people.
And then the the next level above that
is really getting good at splitting behavior.
(33:23):
If you can find a split like Hannah
Branigan can find a split, then you're golden.
No one can find a split like Hannah
Branigan can find a split.
And I think that right there is where
we have to start our artistry journey is
first we need to learn.
So like with with what graphic design, it's
(33:43):
color theory.
Let's bring in a theory of splitting and
science there.
Yeah, lots of examples are coming to mind
as you're saying that.
So let's talk about these and see how
they fit in.
One's just left my brain, but it'll come
back to me.
This one was like, OK, at a wildlife
park a few weeks ago and working with
(34:06):
their koala team.
And they were doing a specific, they're providing
specific antecedents and consequences.
And we had a discussion about how what
was being learned and what can be changed.
(34:27):
And I realized just how hard what I
was asking of these people was.
Right.
It's like I'm saying to you that you've
been doing this certain behavior in this certain
context for so long.
The only reason you do that behavior is
because there's reinforcement there for you, otherwise you
(34:50):
wouldn't do it.
And I'm asking you now to ignore your
reinforcement history and what works for you in
this context, apart from this conversation, influencing that,
doing a whole new behavior in this context.
And that has no reinforcement history and do
that.
And I kind of feel like I don't
(35:12):
know the best way to describe this, but
like your biology is physically going to be
fighting you to do that.
And the other one is like, yes, I
stole this joke off Susan, and I say
it quite a lot.
It's like she's like, I wish like presenter
Susan, I wish presenter Ryan, when I'm presenting
on Crucial Conversations, could talk to husband Ryan
(35:32):
and like apply those skills, like taking those
skills that Crucial Conversations teaches us or how
to create safety for others in conversations and
that I can apply successfully in a work
context but applying them in real time in
the flux and dynamicness of our house with
(35:53):
animals and kids and the chaos.
You know, I suck at generalizing my own
behavior, so it just doesn't generalize into that
space.
But I like I can see clearly how
like shape splitting would would fall into those
categories.
But I'd love to hear your perspective.
(36:13):
Absolutely.
That example you gave of you going in
and asking these keepers to just ignore everything
they've ever done and do something different for
zero reinforcement history.
Isn't that kind of what we're asking our
dogs to do when we start them on
a behavior modification journey?
Isn't that kind of what we're doing?
And so I think it's a very important
(36:34):
piece, a split, if you will, that we
forget to do often when when training anyone,
when working with anyone, but especially with our
dogs.
Is this split of first?
Can you do this behavior without any distractions
around?
That is that is truly the first split.
(36:56):
And that and a lot of people think
or the way they behave tells me that
they think that generalizing their behavior in five
different locations.
OK, so we did it at home.
We did it at the training center.
We did at the park.
We always go to.
We went to the mall parking lot and
we went to insert other location here.
(37:18):
What about when we walk down the street
and turn left at the at the corner
intersection?
Did you did you practice it there without
a dog?
Because that's where the dogs show up that
the problems take place.
That doesn't really happen at the mall parking
lot.
It doesn't.
So we forget the split between.
OK, now can you do it in context,
(37:41):
but without the trigger?
And now can you do it in context,
but with a harder, with not a harder,
with an easier trigger?
So, for example, can you sit and eat
a scatter or lie down and eat a
scatter or watch me or do whatever it
is that you want your dog to do
instead of bark and lunge?
While there is maybe your brother who lives
(38:02):
in the same house as you, who you
do not have aggression issues with, is walking
down the street with another handler.
Can you do that?
That is a split that we don't often
think about.
Can you do it with a stuffed dog
kind of staring at you from further down
the street?
Because those stuffed dogs can look pretty wonky
at you and give the hairy eyeball.
(38:24):
Can you do it if you're if you
have a toy driven dog?
I have a toy driven dog right now.
My my 11 month old boxer, he's very
toy driven.
I am currently teaching him how to stay
on a station using a toy.
Like, can you do this while I'm swinging
your beloved tuggy around?
No, then there's no way I can ask
you to do this with another dog working.
Those are the splits I want to start
(38:45):
thinking about outside the box splits of what
can you do it around?
What have I tested you doing it around
before asking you to do it around your
hardest triggers?
I was watching Free Willy last night with
my wife, really wanted my daughter to watch
it.
And I do what every animal trainer does
(39:05):
around, like judging the training as it's happening
in the movie.
And to me, my wife's like, you're judging
it, aren't you?
I'm like, no, and Free Willy wouldn't perform
for the little child, wouldn't do the cute
behaviours.
Don't like that word perform, but wouldn't didn't
want to offer the cute behaviours in the
presence of all of the kids tapping on
the the glass.
(39:26):
And Ryan's brain's going, you haven't taught this
destruction yet.
OK, back to the keepers.
By the way, like just take this opportunity
to share this really cool thing that you
can do.
I've been doing recently on these consoles is
using your phone to record the whole conversation,
taking that transcript, putting it in Chazza, aka
(39:47):
ChagPT, coming up with a really detailed transcript
of everything you covered.
So we did this.
And I'm glad to say in that we
did.
We did say you need to practice this
without your koala first.
And with the a peer, a colleague pretending
to be a koala or whatever, you need
to set that up successfully.
(40:09):
And we teach these guys to teach and
they got ways of teaching each other new
skills and then all of the stuff to
break down as much as we can.
But I'm also aware as part of my
art, artistry, my developing artistry that, you know,
in 10 years from now, I'm hoping I
listen back to me saying that and slap
my forehead into my palm and be like,
(40:30):
you didn't know what you were talking about
back then.
That's that's a sign of growth for me.
But is that I'm aware of my reinforcers.
OK, cool.
I'm going to teach these koala keepers to
do this, these things.
And I need management to look at what
we're achieving here and thinking that their return
on investment for bringing me into the space
(40:53):
is going to be something that reinforces that
behavior, you know, and and there's all of
these.
So as an operator, I've got my own
reinforcers in that context and trying to bypass
the process that I know we need to
take.
Right.
Because there's other reinforcers at play.
(41:15):
But yeah, I think I think you're right.
Hopefully we'll do that.
Time will tell.
We'll talk about it in a future episode.
So let's start, let's stay on this track.
That is the art and science of training
and the art and science of being a
practitioner.
What is what is this like?
And if I've gone too far off field,
(41:36):
tell me.
But what is what is the science part
of this thing?
Like, how do we how do we scientifically
be a practitioner?
Thoughts are coming to me as I ask
that question.
But I want to hear your thoughts by
educating ourselves as much as we can, by
educating ourselves, being open to that education, being
receiving to that education and learning from those
(41:57):
who are true artists in our fields, from
learning from people who are true scientists in
our field.
And I think our bestie, Dr. Susan Friedman,
is both.
I think she embodies what it is to
be an artist of a dog trainer, an
artist of a practitioner.
And I think starting with a course like
(42:21):
Living and Learning with Animals, I think learning
what you want to do with certifying through
Control Unleashed.
I think certifying with competent bodies that that
teach skill, that look at your skill, that's
Control Unleashed does that.
(42:42):
KPA, CTP does that.
LLA tests your knowledge, getting your certifications through
different things.
Those ways will test your knowledge of the
science more than I can.
Things those are the things that I would
like people to do to in order to
make sure that they have the science down
(43:04):
really, really hard.
I am one of those people who I'm
really, really good at understanding it.
I'm not very good at regurgitating it.
So that's why I had to learn to
become an artist is because all I did
was regurgitate facts for a long time and
nobody understood anything.
It went over people's heads or I said
it wrong or this or that.
(43:26):
And so once I started, things are just
falling on me, I guess.
Once I just once I started caring less
about making sure I got the words right
and caring more that I made sure I
got the concept across right.
That's when we started seeing success in both
my professional career and also as in my
(43:48):
chops as a trainer, as like just a
trainer.
So do I really need to know that
I am going on a differential reinforcement of
other of alternative behaviors journey?
Do I really need to know that?
Yes, yes, I do.
I need to know that.
But does your client need to know that?
Not really.
(44:08):
Things like that.
So you need to know in order to
be an artist, you need to know the
medium with which you are using and the
medium of which you are using is applied
behavioral analysis, right?
And then what your what your client needs
to know and using applied behavior analysis for
me, how this is is making sense is
all of this messiness I have around these
(44:30):
thoughts.
Some of them that we've shared today in
this podcast episode are relatively new to me.
I like meeting and turning into this.
You know, you know, when you get played
over different colors and you're like, that's what's
happening in my mind right now.
It's like you need you need applied behavior
analysis to apply to your non-human learners,
to apply to your clients, to apply to
yourself.
(44:52):
That's a really exciting journey, I think.
And then another Susanism, and then I'll throw
this at you because I want to hear
your thoughts on it, that I say, I
say a lot.
And I think it's so relevant for what
you've said there is learn all of this
stuff, learn about what differential reinforcement of different
kinds of differential reinforcement means and all of
(45:13):
the jargon science, what we can take from
the literature, whether you're reading literature or reading
textbooks or whatever your sources, living and learning
of animals, control, unleashed certification, whatever it is.
I think this skill and I still feel
(45:33):
like I'm grasping this and grasping how to
best help others take away what I struggle
to put into words is taking all of
that information, leaving it at the door and
then stepping in front of your individual learner
to see what they're telling you now.
I can hear my inner Susan coming out
when I say that that is that is
for me where this ball of playdough in
(45:57):
my mind is is landing me towards the
end of this conversation.
When I say that to you, what does
it make you think?
I think that is a perfect explanation.
I think that is exactly it.
I think in order to become a true
artist, you have to practice.
You just have to do it.
You have to leave every preconceived notion when
(46:19):
you are practicing, when you are applying your
knowledge, when you are honing your skills, take
every preconceived notion, leave it at the door
and just see what the animal in front
of you is telling you.
So you may think you are applying a
positive reinforcement strategy for one of your dogs
to teach a specific skill, for example.
(46:40):
But then looking back at the video, because
we always record everything we do, don't we?
So we can review it all.
So when reviewing that video, you might find
that what was happening wasn't, in fact, a
positive reinforcement contingency, but rather a negative reinforcement
contingency.
I've had that happen recently in a training
session with my 11 month old who I
(47:03):
was teaching him a kickback stand from a
sit.
And he gave me the most perfect offer
to kickback stand.
And in the moment, I thought it was
the coolest thing in the world until I
reviewed the video and I realized I had
leaned into him.
And that is when he kickback stand stood.
And I leaned back in order to click
and reinforce him and did not realize in
(47:23):
that moment what I had done.
And so in that moment, could he have
learned?
Yes, obviously he did.
He learned that that was a behavior I
was searching for from him.
But in that particular moment, what was the
contingency at play?
It was not positive reinforcement, even though I
positively reinforced my dog for doing the thing.
It was actually a negative reinforcement contingency.
(47:45):
And so we have to be aware of
these things.
Where are we looking?
What are we doing?
What are we accidentally doing?
We have to practice, like you said, without
your animals first.
How are you going to practice?
How are you going to get it right
with the koalas if you don't practice without
the koalas first?
You have to know exactly what you want
to do in every moment of every contingency
(48:05):
that comes up.
And you can't do that if you haven't
first practiced by yourself.
That is a split that most people don't
think of.
Yeah, it makes me think about you to
know exactly what to do and the situation.
And that's what we we teach with those
koala keepers as well via a specific tool
that Emily Johnson and Ava Bertelsen taught me
(48:28):
called flowcharting.
And I just imagine Ava and Emily's mind
has been these flowcharts just happening organically in
their mind.
Let's wrap up this conversation.
And if you will, I'll wrap it up
with a quote.
And this is from the end of the
article, The Art of Training by Steve Martin.
It says the most artistic animal trainers understand
(48:51):
their opportunity and obligation to provide the best
care and management for the animals in their
charge, as well as the opportunities to influence,
inspire and empower others.
In this relatively young and limited field, this
was 2006, everyone of animal training, we are
all artists in our own right.
Our passions, our skills, our knowledge of training
(49:11):
and of our animals are gifts that we
can share with others.
When we pass them on to other trainers,
we can improve their performance and ultimately the
lives of the animals in their care.
And for me, that's what it's all about.
What about you, Adam?
I agree.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I could sing that quote from the rooftops.
It's beautiful, isn't it?
I like it.
I read that.
I was like, oh, yeah, let's see if
(49:32):
there's an opportunity to include that in the
end.
Sadly, though, that does bring us to the
end.
I do have one more question for you.
I don't know if I share this with
you in advance.
I'm getting bad at remembering to do that.
But that is I just want to hear
people's visions for the future.
And we've been asking this now for four,
nine years, nine, ten years.
I lose track of how long we've been
doing this podcast.
But that question is, what do you want
(49:53):
to see happen over the next five, ten
years in the animal training world?
And that's why it's cool that we've been
asking it for that long now, because what
we've found is that no matter where you
are in the world, no matter what species
you're working with, no matter what industries you're
in, we're often always singing the same song.
And in your words, I would like to
hear what you would like to see happen
over the next five, ten years, Adam.
(50:13):
I would like to see more curiosity take
place.
I would like to see more people asking
why.
How?
What?
And I really would love to see a
shift towards understanding.
The captive animals in our care, and I
(50:34):
think that shift has already begun.
We are seeing welfare as this big, important
first piece, and I would like to see
it continue going in that direction.
I don't want it to be a wave
that ebbs out and flows back into the
ocean just when it's hitting critical mass.
I want it to keep going.
(50:54):
Ellie Bender and Emily Strong did a podcast
episode on curiosity recently.
And when I asked Susan a couple of
years ago to do something with us and
say, what would you most like to do
with our membership?
She said she wanted to do a webinar
on critical thinking.
(51:14):
Yes, I love that vision, love curiosity, let's
get more curious.
Thanks for sharing everything today with us, Adam.
Could you just remind everyone listening before we
wrap up where they can go to find
out more about you, what you do and
get in touch?
Absolutely.
You can find me on my website, flashofbrilliantstogs
(51:35):
.com or you can find me through Facebook.
My name is as it's spelled.
You can find me easily, unfortunately.
And on Instagram at flashofbrilliantstogs.
That's the handle there.
Fantastic.
And we will, of course, link to all
of us in the show notes as well.
Adam, this has been so much fun for
myself.
And on behalf of everyone listening, we really
(51:56):
appreciate you taking the time to come and
hang out with us on the show today.
Thank you so much.
It has been my pleasure.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
(52:17):
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
(52:37):
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
(52:59):
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills.
Stay awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
(53:19):
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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