Tom Candy on Burnout, Boundaries & Breakthroughs in Shelter Work [Episode 255]

In this continuation of our two-part series, Tom Candy returns to the Animal Training Academy Podcast to dive even deeper into the complex, emotional, and incredibly impactful world of shelter and rescue behavior work. As a Certified Clinical Animal Behaviorist and founder of Simplifying Shelter Behaviour, Tom brings over 15 years of experience in the field and a relentless commitment to improving animal welfare.

In this episode, Tom opens up about the human side of behavior work in shelter settings—discussing the emotional toll, the importance of support systems, and the nuanced decisions behavior professionals must make every day. With heart, humor, and humility, he shares insights into:

✅ Navigating the mental load and moral dilemmas of behavior work in rescue environments
✅ The significance of peer support and reflective practice to combat compassion fatigue
✅ How to balance behavioral outcomes with the best welfare options for animals and their caregivers
✅ Empowering shelter staff and volunteers with practical, positive-based solutions
✅ Why clear communication and small wins can create powerful ripples of change

This episode is a must-listen for anyone working in or alongside rescue and shelter organizations. Whether you’re a trainer, behavior consultant, volunteer, or advocate, Tom’s grounded perspective and lived experience will leave you feeling seen, supported, and inspired to do more of the good work—without burning out.

Links

https://open.spotify.com/show/1Ea6VTImAPcnlXilJYunij?si=9494adef3f064d14

https://simplifyingshelterbehaviour.com/

https://educanine.org/2025-conference?fbclid=IwY2xjawKHUYJleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETA5Y3ZLaDQ0eDFYdHUyRHBNAR4dLvacTszLMncdW44_WmU-oeObn6FsRO7wApjPdj_HZvsTnOCB34Xqf6xsqg_aem_b3aPz3fSwo7LroNisEnxzw

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a

(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding

(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant

(01:12):
community and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts

(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'm
thrilled to welcome you all back into part
two with my conversation with the awesome Tom
Candy.
And if you haven't listened to the first
part of our conversation, you can find it

(01:54):
in the previous episode on whatever app you're
listening to this show on.
In that episode, we explored Tom's work in
the shelter environment and how he navigates what
can be a very rewarding but also sometimes
a challenging context to work in.
It's definitely worth a listen.

(02:15):
However, if you haven't, you're of course welcome
to start here with part two, where you're
still going to gain a ton of insights
to help you grow your skills, knowledge, and
confidence in animal training, working with dogs, and
in shelter environments.
So let's dive in.
Tom, thanks so much for coming back and
hanging out with us again on the Animal

(02:37):
Training Academy podcast show.
We really appreciate it.
Yeah, thanks for having me back.
Excited to continue the conversation.
Continue geeking out.
I'm excited too.
We're going to benefit from your experience in
the shelter world, but we're going to switch
things up a little bit and also cast
a wider net.
I'm looking forward to your input, Tom, on

(02:59):
in this episode, how to best help the
human side of the lead in shelters and
beyond.
And I believe you put together a wee
list of five things.
Five things?
A number of things that the listeners of
this show can do just to help the

(03:19):
human side of the lead.
But before we get going on these items,
when we caught up last week, I think
it was, this is something you said that
you're passionate about.
This is what you wanted to talk about
and share ideas around.
What is it that you're seeing in this
space and in the human side of the
lead that made you choose this topic for

(03:40):
this episode?
Yeah, so really for me, there's two things
and they both relate back to working in
shelter and rescue.
But the first is obviously a lot of
dogs, and it depends which research you look
at, but a large number of dogs that
come into shelter and rescue are coming in
because of their behavior.
So that is a problem behavior in inverted

(04:04):
commas or owners just not able to cope
with normal traits of that species.
So obviously anything that we can do to
support owners with their new dogs or dogs
that they have or any animal that they've
got is obviously helping keep that pet in
the home and reduce the number of animals

(04:25):
coming into shelter and rescue.
And then the flip side of that is
none of us who work in shelter and
rescue, or I would hope nobody who works
in shelter and rescue, want the animals to
stay there forever.
So what we've got to do is take
a dog or a different animal, support them,
get them to a place where they're ready
to move into their new home, and then

(04:46):
support the owner in that new home to
make them be successful, to share a great
life together, and for that home to become
the forever sofa for that dog.
So supporting the lead to me is that
combination of hopefully preventing animals coming into rescue,
but then also making sure the ones that

(05:07):
we put out stay out and have a
great life for the owner and the dog,
because I think that's also important is, you
know, we've got to look at both ends
of the lead when we measure welfare and
happiness.
How do you look at this problem?
The problem being that dogs coming into rescue,
there's a large amount of them, because of
behaviour problems.

(05:27):
Do you frame it in your head as
behaviour problems in terms of the dog's got
something wrong with its behaviour, or is it
a resource problem, an environmental problem?
How do you think about this?
Oh, it's a good, it's like a big
philosophical question to start off, and so I

(05:49):
use the term problem behaviour because I think
it's, particularly in the UK, quite wildly known,
although I would say, you know, labels are
labels, aren't they?
But I actually think it is a combination,
like sometimes the learning history and other factors
of that dog have led them to develop
some strategies that might not be ideal in

(06:10):
certain situations, particularly if we're thinking of aggressive
behaviours or other factors like separation-related problems
or anything like that, which, you know, may
not change considerably just by moving the environment,
but a lot of the time, actually bringing
these animals into rescue and looking at the
picture and saying, actually, do you know what?

(06:32):
Yes, you had an issue with a child
in your previous home for whatever reason, but
if we pick you up and plop you
into this other home with older children or
no children, that's just going to melt away.
So I think it is quite a big
combination of, you know, sometimes there is that
learning history and experience of that individual, or

(06:52):
sometimes it can be the environmental shift.
So the answer is that ever-growing answer
of training and behaviour, it depends.
Am I remembering correctly, we talked about, obviously,
your experience and knowledge and expertise in the
shelter environment, but when we called up last
week, you were kind of suggesting that the

(07:15):
conversation today is relevant for the humans whom
have the non-human learners that they want
to bring to the shelter, most often dogs,
but you suggested that it's generalisable to those
working with dogs just as a consultant, as

(07:35):
a dog trainer?
Yeah, definitely.
So I think a lot of what we
do in terms of thinking about the both
ends of the lead, it doesn't really matter
which angle you're tackling things from.
I think it's just making sure that owners
feel supported and have appropriate goals and thoughts
in mind that, you know, achieves the outcome

(07:57):
that they want, because ultimately that's what we're
doing, right?
Like, yes, we all want to protect welfare
of the animal, but if you're being paid
for behavioural training services and the owner doesn't
get the outcome, you know, we know it
happens case by case, but overall that's how
you create a good business model, right?
Is people achieving what they want?

(08:19):
And same for shelter and rescue, like if
we can keep an animal in the home
or make it a successful adoption, like it's
the same goal, like how we support our
clients, how we bring them along on the
journey, I think is universal.
Is that part of the reason you wanted
to talk about this today?

(08:40):
Do you see a misunderstanding about that in
terms of people?
We talked in the last episode about people
being passionate about getting into this, well I
think we did, maybe we talked about it
after we finished recording, but people get into
this industry, they stay in this industry, they
want to get involved in this industry because
of the passion to help the dogs, but

(09:01):
really at the end of the day our
job is to help people.
This is me making a statement, you agree
or disagree with it, but like are you,
well firstly do you agree or disagree with
it?
And if you agree with it, do you
see a lack of that kind of thinking?
Is it kind of why you wanted to
talk about this as well today?
Yeah that's a great question, I mean I

(09:21):
do, I definitely agree, and I think, you
know, I'm sure we've all heard people say
like, oh yeah I like work with animals
because I don't like people, and you always
just think, you thought this through?
Like animals normally come with people, all right
yeah they don't in the shelter, but the
aim is to get them out again, that's

(09:41):
at least my aim, I don't want dogs
living in kennels forever, I don't think that's
a good approach to welfare personally, and I
think that is becoming wider known, but what
I also know is, and this is another
common phrase that people who know me will
know, is the dogs are the easy part,
like animals have generally speaking quite a set,

(10:05):
you know, number of rules when it comes
to learning and behaviour, and you know we
hopefully now have some good skills to manipulate
those, the difficulty is the other end of
the lead taking our knowledge and experience and
using that themselves to achieve what they want,
so I think it's important because it's, in
my opinion, one of the hardest parts of

(10:26):
the job is getting everybody on the same
page and moving forward towards a good welfare
outcome.
Yeah and just take a second to acknowledge
and share with the listeners of this show,
like none of the things we're talking about
or what we're currently talking about now we're
not suggesting, or I'm not suggesting anyway, and

(10:47):
I think that Tom would be the same,
again tell me if you have different thoughts
about it, like we're not suggesting it's easy,
like anything but, like it's bloody hard.
Yes, yeah it's very tricky, not really anything
that we do is easy is it?
Yeah it's just a nuance, like someone was
saying to me the other day, like if
you're in a conversation and you disagree with

(11:09):
the other person, you have a different perspective,
you see things differently, however you want to
frame that, and especially if the disagreement or
the different perspective is, you know, one where
the stakes are high, emotions run strong and
opinions vary, which would be the definition of
a crucial conversation, you're getting into a challenging
conversation about something you really care about, the

(11:31):
skill to like not show that in your
body language is really challenging, and so like
people are consistently doing that, and then you're
interpreting that correctly, or quite often probably incorrectly,
it gets pretty disorientating and confusing, in my

(11:55):
experience anyway.
Yeah definitely, and it varies so much as
well doesn't it, like how much of that
we have to do, or how little of
it, or like what choices we can make
in those situations, depending on the one we're
in, and I always remember back when I
worked at a singular rescue centre, and they
were like, oh can you do some like
staff training on like having difficult conversations around

(12:19):
like things that are wrong, so like, and
the example was like a dominance theory in
dogs, and you know the idea of like
being the pack leader, and people coming into
the shelter and saying like oh yeah, like
yeah I know I've got to be the
alpha, and this that and the other, and
the staff being upset by that, or worried
about what that would mean for the dog,

(12:39):
yeah which may be a valid concern in
some situations, and I remember my staff training
basically being like, do you need to bring
it up, and they were all like what,
and I was like well depending on the
situation, like do we need to bring it
up in that moment, like thinking about how
we address these things, if you directly point
things out, does that put them on the

(13:00):
defensive, or you know often what I find
particularly when people are coming in and trying
to adopt a dog, is they say what
they believe you want to hear, rather than
what they actually believe, or you know what
their experience is, and we're all working off
the experience that we've had today, and I
think that's a really important thing to remember,
is we've all just know what we know,

(13:24):
and we hopefully are all open to exploring
more things, so I was like you know
we might steer them in the direction, but
rather than say don't do that, don't do
that because, don't think that because, what we
can just do instead is like show them
how we do things, and they can hopefully
accept that, and take it on, and you
know 90% of the time you're going

(13:44):
to avoid those conflict-based conversations, but still
end up in the same outcome, because obviously
what we wouldn't want is somebody to believe
that, and follow through with dominance theory, and
start alpha rolling the dog or whatever, that's
obviously not what we're talking about, but another
example of that was just today, where I
was assessing some dogs to, you know the

(14:09):
people wanted to be foster carers for children,
and when I was assessing their dogs as
part of that process, and the owner said
to me then like oh yeah, like when
we had this puppy before, we went to
this amazing positive reinforcement based trainer, but not
one that uses treats, and I was a
bit like okay cool where's this going, and

(14:30):
she was like oh you just use like
a voice and stuff, and I was like
oh cool yeah okay I like maybe see
that working, cool yeah, and then she was
like yeah, and then she like taught me
how to growl, and I was like okay,
but you know what I was there for
was to assess the dogs, the dogs were
amazing, the owners didn't do anything horrible to
the dogs, I don't believe they do, and

(14:52):
they just have this kind of different perception,
and I also think at that time like
why would you bring that up in conversation,
unless you think that is the right thing,
and therefore you want me to hear that,
because we weren't talking about training, we were
just talking about the dogs generally, and obviously
I could have said at that point like
well that's not what I would like, I
wouldn't expect you to growl at your dog,

(15:13):
and this could be all you know, this
is the long list of negative consequences potentially
attached to that, but it wasn't really relevant
at the point, so why would I, which
again might sound like quite a strange statement
to some of the listeners, but I think
like recognizing our ability to influence people outside
of direct conflict, or pushing against thoughts and

(15:35):
considerations is a really strong way to achieve
change, and it's something that yeah I always
think about, like do we need to address
this right now, or can we do other
stuff that naturally will bring around that point,
and I think another good example of this
is when maybe people turn up to training
sessions in that we don't align with personally,

(16:00):
like you know like a prong collar, or
a choke chain, or something like that, and
I know some people are really keen to
draw that line right at the start of
the lesson, but again you know, does that
put people on the defensive, does that make
them think well why criticizing me about this,
whereas actually if we say like hey can
we, you know, this is how we teach
the goose lead walking, and we build that

(16:20):
relationship, we build that rapport with the client,
and we build the behavior, and then we
say to the client you know, your dog's
walking great, let's try it without, would you
like to try this flat collar, and they
still have the achievement, you've maybe got around
that problem, you've still got around the problem,
but you've got around it in a way
that empowers the learner, rather than starting off
with punishment, which I imagine, you know, a

(16:43):
lot of other listeners wouldn't be doing with
the animal, so why are we doing it
with the human?
It reminds me of a meme I saw,
and it had Jason or Freddy, one of
those horror movie characters, right, this guy, the
one from Halloween anyway, he's got like a

(17:03):
hockey mask on, and he's got like a
knife, and he's walking around, and you can
see like in the first cartoon, the person
is hiding behind a wall, and the second
cartoon, the Halloween guys moved around, and then
the third one, he goes positive reinforcement doesn't
work, and the positive reinforcement goes, yes it
does, but the point of the cartoon was

(17:28):
how incredibly challenging that skill can be for
some people, and tell me what you think,
I'm going to throw an idea at you,
and you build on it, or if you
push back against it, if you see a
different perspective, but it comes down to what
is our goal in that situation, on a

(17:48):
couple of levels, like you said you were
there to just assist the dogs, so that's
your goal in that context, secondly you also
said that if you, you're talking about the
loose leash walking example, and you said if
you start to demonstrate, or tell them some
specific behaviours and skills they can develop, then

(18:11):
you start to build rapport and relationship, and
if we think about it, we go into
these situations to train dogs, to get behaviour
change in dogs, but what we're doing is
we're getting behaviour change, and we're wanting behaviour
change in the human, and the human is
an earthling, and they operate under the same

(18:32):
laws of behaviour, yet we're like, the approximation
that we're giving them, or like the tools
we're using, like how do you get behaviour
change, you build rapport right, and you get
relationship, and you put deposits in the trust
account, but I feel like we're missing it
a lot, yeah I agree, I think we
do treat, I was going to say we
treat humans like a completely different species, which

(18:54):
is obviously the correct phrase, but we treat
them like a completely different situation, like they're
from a different planet, where the laws of
behaviour don't operate, that's it, yeah, yeah, like
we, and I think actually like positive reinforcement
people are the worst for this, like I
know that's really controversial to say, but yeah

(19:15):
I think yeah, it's interesting isn't it, we
sometimes have this conversation, this is a tangent
now Ryan, but sometimes we have this conversation
about like, you know, how far have we
gone in positive reinforcement, like is it too
far, and I don't think it is, like
I'm not, that's not what I'm saying, but
it's this idea isn't it, of keeping our
minds open, and understanding that everybody's on a

(19:36):
different part of their learning journey, and our
job is to support them to hopefully move
closer to where we are, like that's our
job right, as educators, as trainers, or whatever
term you choose to use, like we are
there to educate the dog, but also educate
the owner, and yeah that's some of the
stuff that we're gonna be talking in later

(19:59):
actually, like comes from the human literature for
students, like in schools, because when we take
the parallel of learning a new skill, which
is what dog training is, it is a
skill, anybody that trains a dog knows that
it's hard, especially like if you give me
a clicker, it's shocking, I can't deal with
a clicker, and a handful of treats, and

(20:20):
a dog lead, like I'm not really good,
I feel like you need to be an
optimist, so it is a skill, and if
we're teaching a new skill in a stressful
environment, because somebody feels like they might be
being judged, or they're worried about their dog's
behavior, which is why they've called you in,
like one of the great parallels of that
is school, where we have this unique group

(20:42):
of learners who are being educated.
Yeah they help me understand, so last bit
went over my head a little bit.
So like I think one element, obviously a
large element of our role is to educate
the owners, right, to help them understand where
their dog's coming from, but also develop a
new skill set, develop new knowledge about their

(21:03):
dog as an individual, but maybe about training
in general, and one of the largest parallels
that we can draw in terms of supporting
people in that position is with students, and
a lot of the techniques, and theories, and
things that are considered for students in a

(21:23):
classroom, like can be really helpful for us
as dog trainers when we're bringing owners on
that learning journey.
What are some of those skills and ways
that we teach students in classrooms?
Am I understanding correctly?
Yeah, yeah, so I think one of the
big things that we need to think about
with owners who we're working with, and I

(21:45):
think it's not very often, I mean I
don't hear it talked about a lot, is
frustration.
So the owner being frustrated in the situation,
they're frustrated with their dog, they're frustrated because
they can't go on the lovely long walks
that they wanted to, you know, they can't
do all of the things that they expect
they were going to achieve with their dog,

(22:05):
or they're embarrassed about the dog because of
their behavior.
And there was this really cool study from
2023, it was, I'm going to butcher this,
but it's Krachter and Nishaf in 2023, and
they looked at the frustration of students in
a classroom, and the influence on motivation and

(22:26):
performance.
So obviously motivation and performance is super important
when we're considering how we're helping owners, because
if the owners don't want to do what
we're asking them to do, then we know
they're not going to achieve the same things.
And what they kind of looked at was
basically the modern world that we're living in,
which we obviously talked about in the last
episode, is leading to people becoming frustrated more

(22:49):
easily, there's a lot more pressure, and that's
going to affect how they respond in certain
situations.
And they basically looked at a big number
of students, and they split things into kind
of three categories, which I'll talk you through
in a second.
But the reason that frustration becomes important is
we get this disengagement in the learning, so

(23:09):
people don't want to follow the plans, they're
not interested in booking follow-ups or sending
us the whatsapp videos, we get a decreased
feeling of self-esteem because they want to
achieve what, you know, if you've got a
puppy class and your learner is, I don't
want to say the bottom of the class,
because that sounds horrible, but you know you're
the other puppies around you doing well, you're

(23:29):
going to feel worried about the image, why
is your pup letting you down, there might
be some of the language that they use,
and we see this decline in success because
of all of these kind of approximations that
relate to it.
And the other kind of theories that they
put forward was, the first one is like
the frustration-aggression theory, so this is where

(23:49):
we see unresolved frustration leads to aggression, which
we definitely see in our non-human learners,
but when we think about what that actually
means for owners that are in front of
us, there's potentially where we see things like
more negative behaviour from the owner coming in,
so they might start to shout at their
dog or become physical, whether that's intentional or

(24:13):
unintentional, so what I mean by that is
like maybe they're now reaching for tools that
they previously haven't used, like our prongs and
our chokes and things, because they're getting to
their breaking point or they feel like they're
at the end of the tavern, they tried
the treats and everything and nothing worked, and
then that leads to that breakdown of the

(24:34):
relationship between the dog and the owner, and
I think it's just something that we don't
really think about, it's like how we set
these owners up for success in their learning
plan really affects the outcome, but also the
relationship between the dog and the owner, and
I think we talk about it a lot
in terms of our non-human learners, so

(24:54):
we talk about keeping our shaping steps small,
our building approximations, setting the animal up for
success, but I don't think we're as good
of doing that with the humans, and I
think that's something that I don't often hear
talk about as much is frustration, and particularly
with people in the shelter and rescue world,

(25:17):
more often than not, they might not be
aware of what they're signing up for, like
we often see behaviours appear in the home
that we didn't see in the shelter, and
one of the big differences that we have
is where you've got somebody who's maybe had
a dog from a pup or for a
couple of years and then they start to

(25:37):
see the emergence of these behaviours, they've already
got that relationship there, but when we've got
dogs who are going out of the shelter
and this is week two, the relationship is
sort of very different, and obviously the more
support we're able to give them, the better
chance that we've got of success.
I don't think I think about this much,
so this is really interesting to me, I

(25:58):
don't think I think about, maybe I think
about it, but I don't think about it
through that label, and maybe your answer to
Monique's questions might help me, and the listeners
as well, I hope if you are similar
to me, unpack this a little bit more.
The first question is, how do we know
someone's frustrated?
And the answer that comes to my mind,

(26:21):
and again an invitation is paired with this
answer for aggrience or pushback, is that we
see it through behaviour.
We guess to the best of our ability
that someone's feeling frustrated because we see and
hear certain behaviour.
So for the listeners of this show, and

(26:42):
for my personal learning, what behaviours when we're
dealing with owners, I think you've might have
mentioned some of them already, and that is
a lack of behaviour maybe, so not sending
through WhatsApp videos or showing up to class
or whatever, but what other observable operationalised definitions

(27:06):
can you give us for that, and when
we're working with clients, or working with owners
who are surrendering dogs, or any other situation?
Yeah definitely, so I think there are some
like common phrases that everybody probably will have
heard that we can consider, so you know
that typical one of, well we've done this
before, or we've tried everything, can be quite

(27:27):
a clear one where those approximations haven't been
met, the goal's not been achieved, and that
leads to that frustration.
I think body language is a big one
in people, as it is with dogs, like
crossing arms, disengaging in the conversation, not really
making eye contact or paying attention to you,

(27:48):
and particularly like if you've tried a couple
of reps and stuff and it's not been
going very successfully, or you're getting to like
the end of a session, but I generally
think as well it does come through in
the feedback, so like you said about not
sending through those WhatsApp videos, or just having
like the one word answers, like how's things
going, yeah fine, like yeah it's okay, so

(28:11):
this is like another thing that we see
with frustration, is that sometimes we like, we
still feel like we should be making progress,
or we should be achieving things, because we're
paying a dog trainer right, so we're paying
you, so of course we're going to tell
you things are fine and going well, because

(28:31):
we don't, it's almost like we don't want
to let the dog trainer down, but we're
frustrated by the process, so we're not doing
the work, so it can be really tricky
to kind of take these things apart, and
generally speaking you know, you are going to
see it more when success isn't happening, because
if everything's going well, then you're not going

(28:52):
to be frustrated, but yeah they're like some
of the main things, is looking out for
that language, and then looking at the engagement
that you're getting in the programmes as well,
so if you've given them a diary, like
how successful are they at filling out the
diary, and obviously we can, we talk about
ideas around how we can make these things
as easy as possible for people to do,

(29:14):
so they're not getting frustrated in the first
place, but it's looking at outcome a lot
of the time I think.
And I imagine that setting expectations at the
start would be valuable there as well, whatever
ways you mentioned that obviously we can make
things as easy as possible, so that frustration
doesn't settle, and what ideas do you have

(29:35):
to share with the audience about ways that
we can do this?
Yeah so I think the number one thing
that we need to do with any client,
is just create that safe learning environment, so
making owners understand like what you're there for,
like you said, set expectations from the start
about what is likely to achieve, but also
really digging down and understanding where they're coming

(29:57):
from, and making them aware that they can
let you know things, so you know having
open, even simple things like having open body
language when you're talking to people, so what
I mean by that is like you know
being mindful if you sit at a desk,
or you know you start writing in a
book, like having the book slightly off to
the side, and not directly in front of
you, or not sitting with our arms crossed,

(30:19):
or you know something that's talked about a
lot is mimicking, so you know if the
person crosses their leg, you cross your leg,
and that's quite an extreme example, but you
know like picking up little things that make
them realize that active listening as well, so
repeating things back in a slightly different way
to check understanding, and show that you're listening,

(30:41):
and acknowledging, you know nodding your head, saying
yes in the appropriate places, or you know
that there's noise that make you sound like
you're engaged in the process, which hopefully you
are, so creating that safe space is very
much kind of that first step, and then
I think when we then move on to
those appropriate goals, what I'd like to use

(31:03):
is kind of borrowed from the like human
management side of things, is smart targets, I
just think they're really clear ways that we
can get owners on board with our training
plans, whatever they are, and then also use
those to track, so we can definitely talk
about that if that's something you're keen on.

(31:23):
Sounds like a thing to do?
Just casually writing it down in my book,
so I don't get the letters wrong, because
as we all know, dog trainers love an
acronym.
We do, I love an acronym.
Yeah, so our first one is specific, so
making really clear like what our goals are
for the training, make them specific, so the

(31:45):
example I normally use for this is if
we are working with an owner of a
reactive dog, so a dog that maybe lunges
and barks at things, most owners are going
to say I'd like my dog to not
be reactive, most trainers are going to know
that's probably not realistic, like to say this
dog will never ever bark at something again
in their lifetime is a pretty big promise

(32:06):
to make as a trainer, so it's having
that conversation about what the owner actually wants,
so how would you feel if you could
see a dog coming and cross the road
to the other side of the pavement and
your dog not react anymore, and a lot
of owners are going to be like yeah,
cool, I just want to be able to
walk around the block without my dog barking
at everything, right, so changing that, I don't

(32:29):
want my dog to react to, I'd like
to be able to cross the road and
my dog not react, or can my dog
sit on the side of the path as
another dog passes, you know, being really clear
about what our goal is, making it very
specific, so everybody knows what they're working towards,
and you've also got a bit of an
end point, because again if we say never

(32:49):
react again, you know, how many years is
that going to take, and most owners when
they start this process are probably not signed
up for that in their head, so that's
our first one is specific, then we're going
to move on to measurable, so we want
to understand again like what are we actually
looking at here, and that could be simple

(33:11):
things like just doing a, well yeah, if
you're using reactivity like what a lot of
people will say is distance, right, so we
can see if we're closer or further away
from the dog than we were during the
last session, other things that we can do
is even simple like better worse the same
charts for walks, or a five-point scale

(33:33):
of like very good, good, neutral, bad, very
bad, just so that we've got something that
we can look at, and the reason this
is really important as well is obviously we
want to track progress, we want to know
when to adjust plans, but we all know
that some of these training journeys with tricky
dogs or dogs with problem behaviours, in the

(33:55):
term that we used earlier, but with problem
behaviours it's a long process, and it can
feel like you're not making very many steps,
and sometimes what you've got to do is
not only kind of look back to last
week, but look at where you started, and
I think measuring progress is really important from
that point of view, because we can all

(34:16):
have bad days where we feel like things
haven't gone very well, and I remember seeing
a dog with a member of staff maybe
two weeks ago, and she said oh can
we go out with this dog, because you
know you've been making really good progress with
his lunging and barking towards other dogs, but
yesterday we went out and he exploded, and
he was up on his hind legs, and
it was awful, and I couldn't get him

(34:38):
to calm back down, and it was a
really horrible situation, and he's been doing so
well, but this has happened, so I said
yeah of course right we'll go out with
him, and we went out with him, and
we saw three dogs, and he didn't react
at all, he engaged with the handler, it
was beautiful, and honestly about three weeks before
this point this dog was rearing up, and

(34:59):
like literally screaming, like high pitched vocalization at
every dog you saw, and I said to
the member of staff then like I understand
you had a tricky day yesterday, that did
sound awful, but you have to recognize how
far you've been able to bring this dog,
like this is amazing from where we were
three weeks ago, and you're focusing in on

(35:20):
the negative, but we've got to see this
bigger picture, so I think measurable is really
important, because we want to understand the journey
the owner's on, but also help them recognize
the steps that they've taken, and then our
A is going to be achievable, so again
like just making it really clear to the
owner, and the example that I think of

(35:40):
with this really is like you know when
you go and see those owners, and they've
got a list of like 10 problem behaviors,
or 10 training tasks that they want you
to achieve in like three sessions, so just
making it clear like what is actually achievable
in the time, helping them focus in like
do you have a list of priorities, and
this is such a random example, but I
do use it quite a lot, but say

(36:01):
you go to a house and the owners
want help with loose lead walking, but the
dog's toileting in the house, like if it's
not a priority for the owner, trying to
make it our priority probably does put up
some of those barriers, and our best bet
might be working with the loose lead walking,
and then being like oh this has gone
really well, I noticed that you may be

(36:24):
struggling a bit with house training, like would
you like my help with that problem, so
like I said it is a bit of
an extreme issue, but understanding that owners have
a priority in their head, and even though
that might not be our priority, it's our
gateway into then further supporting them, so we
want to make sure that you know whatever
we're doing is achievable, and that also involves

(36:45):
asking them what they can achieve, so if
I create a really intense training plan, which
is going to require like three sessions a
day, six days a week, and the owner
works full time and has two newborns, or
whatever, that's probably just not going to happen
is it, like we know straight off the
start, so we can say to them like

(37:06):
how much time can you dedicate to training,
like what is a realistic time scale for
that, so our R is relevant, so again
like just focusing in on the problem that
they're bringing us for, so the example that
I always use for this, I feel like
it's quite a mean one, but a couple
of years ago I saw somebody on Facebook,

(37:30):
and they were like can I do a
decentralization and counter conditioning plan for two people
who, sorry two dogs who resource God from
each other, and I was like can you
tell me a bit more about that situation,
so he's like yeah when they feed the
dogs they like growl at each other, and
it has led to a fight, so you

(37:52):
know could I do a decentralization and counter
conditioning plan to gradually get the dogs used
to eating near each other, and I was
like well you could, because it's learning theory
right, but in that time you're gonna put
management in place, which is going to be
feeding the two dogs in separate rooms with
a barrier, probably like a sensible place to
start, at which point the owner is going

(38:12):
to be like oh cool they're not fighting
anymore, and then they're probably not going to
do the training anyway, so making sure it's
relevant like to the things we're working on,
because that's going to get the owner to
engage with it, it's going to make them
feel like they are achieving things, and the
other extreme example I sometimes use is like

(38:32):
how useful is a rollover if we're working
with separation related problems, so like it is
the extreme version, but basically thinking like will
our training plan actually fit into the goal
that we're trying to achieve, does it move
us closer to that goal, and then our
last one is time bound, so just making
it really clear what our expectations are for

(38:55):
the owners, so like hey can you send
me a video in two weeks of the
progress that you're making, or let's book in
a call in two weeks time so we
can review this, or right you've booked a
package of free sessions so our next session
is x day and this is what we're
going to do, so it's just again really
clear for the owners what they're working towards,
when they need to feed back, and it

(39:17):
almost like helps them keep motivated as well
to be like oh I've got to send
that video soon, so like I'll do a
bit of the training hopefully, and I just
think like setting our goals out in that
way, and we don't have to like literally
write in our report you know smart, but
just thinking about the conversations we're having about
goal setting with our clients and trying to

(39:39):
hit these markers, I've personally just found really
helpful to getting that buy-in and getting
the success, because we just all know what
we're working towards and what steps we need
to take.
Well this has been amazing so far, we're
talking about ways to help the human side
of the lead when working with quotes problem

(40:02):
behaviors from our non-human learners, I talked
about applying the laws of behavior, the tools
that we have in our toolkits, in our
toolboxes that we use with our non-human
learners, we talked about using them with human
learners, we talked about noticing and managing frustration

(40:23):
in the human learner, and why that's important,
now we've just talked about smart goals, what
other suggestions, ideas, things you have to share
with our audience Tom?
Yeah so the other thing that I think
is important is considering the different learning styles,

(40:43):
so if people haven't heard of this before,
it's kind of up for debate at the
minute, it's like a watch this space thing
happening, but generally speaking what people accept is
that there's a couple of different learning styles,
and the ones that you really hear spoken
about is a visual learner, so somebody who

(41:03):
learns from watching, an auditory learner, which is
somebody who learns from listening, a kinesthetic learner,
which is somebody who learns by doing, and
then you have like reading and writing people
as well, sometimes fit into it, so these
are the different learning styles that generally people
kind of fit into, normally more than one,
but for different skills we learn in these

(41:26):
ways, so what I like to think about
when I'm talking to somebody or showing somebody
some dog training things, is a process called
like tell, show, watch, test, sign, post, it's
quite a long one and there's no cool
acronym to come with it, but the thought
behind it is that we're hitting all of

(41:48):
those learning styles, so tell is obviously explain
what you're going to do, so we're going
to teach a hand touch behaviour, this is
really useful because it's a way to redirect
our dog onto something else, and you know
how you do that is you put your
hand out with a treat between your fingers
and the dog sniffs it, and you mark
it and say yes, and you know you're

(42:08):
explaining the process of the training, we're then
going to show them, which is kind of
as it sounds on the tin, so you
show them the training for them to watch
and take in, and then you watch them
do it, and this is often the tricky
part, because normally if you say to owners
would you like to have a go now,
they go uh no it's okay I understand
what you mean, or I'm not really keen,

(42:30):
or they do it a bit funny because
they're worried about you observing them, and it's
something that actually I've found really difficult myself,
is like if owners are like no thank
you, I'm just like oh okay then, but
actually like if you haven't watched them do
it, you miss that opportunity for feedback, you
miss the opportunity to actually check they've understood
the task, so the way that I started

(42:51):
doing it instead which came from a friend
of mine, and a couple of other good
instructors, so what you do is you don't
make a big thing out of it, so
you demo it for them, and you might
do it once or twice, and say we're
teaching that hand touch example, so I've shown
them a few times, and then we're going
to say is right okay can you just
pick up that treat, or take a treat

(43:13):
out of your bag, so they do that
bit, and then you say right okay can
you put it between your fingers, they do
that, right put your hand out, dog does
the behaviour, you say yeah okay mark it
again, so you've got them to do it,
because you've just asked them to do things
in small steps, rather than saying would you
like to have a go now, so same
if we're doing loose lead walking, you'd say
right okay can you just hold this lead
a second, right great, right count out five

(43:35):
treats in your hand, yeah okay, right feed
your treats, feed your dog three treats, okay
take one step forward, and then mark and
feed your dog, you know whatever your example
is, we don't just say can you do
it now, we just encourage them through action,
and then test is you know we've watched
that, we fed back a little bit, and

(43:55):
then signpost, so after the session I'm going
to email you a video of how to
do this exercise, or if you go to
the Animal Training Academy website, there's some great
information about how you can continue this process,
so we're hitting all of those learning styles,
which should again help empower our learners, it
creates that safe space, because they hopefully feel

(44:18):
more open to ask questions, because we've hopefully
hit the different areas of their learning, so
they're more able to form questions in their
head if that makes sense, so like if
I learn by watching, but you've just explained
it to me, I don't know what questions
to ask you, because I haven't started that
learning process, because we're not in the the

(44:40):
same section, does that make sense?
You know what's making me think about, and
that's tag teach, which is yeah, which is
that I'm level one tag teacher, there's three
levels, so like I'm a little mini beginner
tag teacher, but part of what we have
to do to get level one tag teach

(45:03):
certification is send through some videos, basically doing
that process is telling in a very specific
way with that particular curriculum, using the tag
teach methodology, so they've got their own tag
wording etc, but you're going through that process,

(45:24):
and I think that part of the end
was really smart, like just breaking that behaviour
down into small achievable, reminds me of something
Tom, does that remind me of breaking behaviour
down into small achievable approximations?
It was like what we do with every
other species right?
Holy crap, and that's amazing, I think that's

(45:48):
really valuable, so it was tell, show, watch,
what was the next one?
Tell, show, watch, test and signpost, so that's
like the whole process, and test is a
test is an odd one, because it might
not appear every time right, so if you've
watched a client do it, you're naturally going
to give feedback, unless they've like just perfectly

(46:10):
executed your training technique, it fits more into
like when you're teaching other people one-on
-one, or what you might do is ask
them a question about the process, so cool
okay, so like at what point would you
click the clicker, and hopefully the person should
say, oh yeah when his nose touches my

(46:30):
hand, okay cool, yeah you know what you're
doing, so it might be asking a question
around the exercise, or the learning, just to
check that understanding basically, so we've watched them
do it, but also we know that they
kind of know the next steps, or when
to give the treat, or wherever your question
is, and then our signpost is directing them

(46:51):
to more information, because if they are like
me, and they're going to go down a
massive ADHD rabbit hole about whatever you've just
talked about, they know where to look, and
they're not just finding random trainers on the
internet.
I know you use Portal Tom, and you're
teaching at the PPG British Oals Summit, so
I always just like just pause, and like

(47:12):
catch myself to say that mouthful last year,
maybe you and I were talking about then
at the summit, but there is an exercise
where people are learning reinforcement systems in Portal,
and they just have to, they, so you've
a teacher and a learner, and the teacher
has to either click and pass the block,

(47:33):
or just pass the block to the learner,
and they're timed for six seconds, and they
count how many times they can do in
the six seconds, and your time's at by
10, and then you get right reinforcement for
a minute with that specific reinforcement system, and
those specific learner and teacher, and I've found
after doing that exercise many, many times, that

(47:53):
I have to say at the start, this
is not a test.
We are here learning, and this is just
an exercise for learning.
You're not trying to trick your learner.
You're not trying to manipulate this exercise in
any way.
There's no right or wrong.
So I'm curious when you're testing people, like
how do you select what to test?
Are you, are you, I'm just, I'm just

(48:14):
curious how I would, which I'm going to,
experiment with what you've just shared with us,
and how I would choose what questions I'm
going to ask to, one, not make the
person feel like they're being tested, because, because
there's all this like learning history and baggage
from school, and like exams, and all of
this stuff that like comes, comes flooding back,
right, and then two, like do you want

(48:36):
to like, are you intentionally like wanting them
to be successful, so you're going to ask
them something that's easy, so they get it
right, or are you like, oh let's challenge
this person, and see if they've actually been
listening, and last thing, and I'm going to
shut up, and I'm assuming that you're doing
it based on the individual learner in front
of you, so you're making a judgment call
based on that information, not just a generic

(48:58):
rule.
Yeah, so I mean they're all great questions,
and I think it comes back to what
we said as point number one, being like
creating that safe environment, so you know, we
wouldn't, I wouldn't do this with somebody we've
just met, this is somebody that we've spent
a bit of time with, we've done some
training already, and we have that bit of

(49:18):
a rapport anyway, so that hopefully they don't
feel put under the spotlight, obviously we know
that is still the case, so it's also
then about how you word the question, so
you might start off with something that you
hopefully know they will get the answer right
to, like that example that we just used
of, you know, like what point are you

(49:39):
going to give the dog the treat, if
you're teaching a hand touch, if you've done
a couple of times and the dog's nose
has touched their hand, you'd hope they would
say, oh when they touch my hand, or
it might even have to be a simpler
question to start with, but really the questions
are there to check that understanding, and I
think it's the way that we therefore put

(50:00):
that across, and then the way we reinforce
it, if they do get the answer wrong,
which again sounds weird doesn't it, when we're
talking about training, because we normally wouldn't reinforce
wrong answers, but it's about the language we
use to then give them the information that
they were lacking, so I wouldn't be like,
no that's, you you've got that wrong, it'd
be like, okay yeah I can see your

(50:20):
perception of that, or that's really interesting, but
you know, if you think about it this
way, or if you do that, like that
might help you next time, so it's about,
you do want to check understanding, because then
if they, if the understanding is incorrect or
different to what you were hoping, hoping they
would take away, you can obviously steer them

(50:41):
back in the right direction, and because of
that, yes it would be down to the
individual learner, so looking at, yeah the type
of relationship you've got, how successful they've been,
and what I would say is, like we
just kind of mentioned, you'd, you wouldn't just
be testing straight away, it would be like,

(51:03):
right we'll do a couple of repetitions, we've
done a bit of feedback, we're at the
end of the session, you've explained your next
steps, and you'll be like, right okay, what's
your plan for tomorrow, so say we were
teaching a recall, and we've said right, start
in the garden, we're going to build up
your recall in the garden, before you take
it out on a long line, yeah okay
great, okay all right, so what's, what's your

(51:23):
step going to be tomorrow, and then they
might take a minute to think about it,
but hopefully they say, well I'm just going
to start in the garden, because we haven't
done any recall, and so you're just rephrasing
what you've said into a question, is basically
the way to think about it, I suppose,
super valuable, and for you the listener, just
want to reiterate that none of this stuff

(51:45):
is easy, and it takes time, thinking back
to Tom, when you're talking about some methods,
I want to be careful of my word
use here, because if this stuff's new to
you, it can come across as manipulative, like
oh, I want to mirror the person's body

(52:06):
language, and it can be like, you know,
like it's like, if this is all new
to you, like it's going to feel really
weird, and awkward, like if you're, even if
you're doing this show, sorry let me get
it right, tell, show, watch, test, signpost, like
you, you have to kind of treat yourself

(52:28):
as a learner too, right, because you're doing
a new behavior that has no reinforcement history,
and you're basically replacing whatever behavior you used
to do in that context, that has reinforcement
history, and that worked for you for whatever
reason, even though it might have been inefficient
for the client, if you've been operating in
a certain way, that's because you are reinforced

(52:51):
with doing this, and you need, and you
potentially, and I love that you listen to
this podcast, because you're looking for a wider
skill set, and you need to build skill
set, and you need to get reinforcement history,
so it's going to be, it's going to,
you're going to have to muddle your way
through it, and it's going to feel awkward,
and it's a little bit of brave learning,
and it takes courage, I think, to adapt

(53:13):
some of these things, what do you think?
Yeah, I definitely agree, and I think what
we, what we forget sometimes as well, is
most people are generally good active listeners, like
there's not many people who like aren't, it
just depends in the context, so it's not
that you're not probably doing it anyway, but
it's just thinking about the perception to the

(53:34):
other person, so you do it during the
podcast Ryan, you know, I say something, and
then you repeat it back in a slightly
different way to check your understanding, and that
gives me the chance to just be like
yes, that's exactly what I meant, and for
an owner who's talking to us about that
dog, that can be really reassuring, it can
be really, like gratifying, you know, it makes

(53:56):
them feel heard, it makes them feel understand,
so a lot of this stuff that we
talk about, people probably are naturally doing, it's
just about honing it, and thinking about the
effect it then has on the client to
take away, because I agree with you, like
I've sat there, like actively thinking about mirroring,
and it's really weird, like somebody moves the

(54:16):
pen, you're just like, should I move my
pen, is that too much, are they going
to cut or not, this is what I'm
doing, but it's just things like, yeah, and
it's things like watching, sometimes, I'm massively going
to generalise here, but you know, sometimes you
get a consultation, and it's a couple, and
the lady's kind of brought the partner, the

(54:37):
male partner along, and he's sat in the
corner with his arms crossed, and then gradually
over time, as you build that rapport, you
see him open up, and you're just kind
of trying to create that for everybody, I
suppose, and that would be a good point,
where you then opening up and relaxing would
also reinforce the opening up from that other

(54:57):
person, and then that's probably a point where
you'd start aiming more questions towards the male
owner versus the female owner, or you'd try
and get them a bit more involved in
the training, or whatever the situation was, and
it's generally when they start to realise that
you're on their side, and hopefully they are
going to get out of this what they
wanted, and not just being dragged along to

(55:17):
it.
Like I said, that is a massive simplification
and generalisation, but us men are quite good
at shutting up.
And every time, listen, just take note, every
time I mirrored something back to Tom, he
said, yes, that's exactly what I meant, because
I'm so amazed.
I don't always get it right, like I
had to ask for clarification about the student

(55:40):
learning example.
Hey, we've run out of time, Tom.
Just one last question before we wrap up
today.
I always like to hear, and this is
something that I think could be a strength
of yours.
We talked about it in part one, people's
vision for the future.
So what would you really like to see
happen in the next five to ten years
in the shelter industry, and in our much
larger industry of people that work with animals

(56:01):
and are interested in behaviour?
Yeah, that's a great question.
My big one for the shelter, I think,
is shelters and rescues just being more open.
I see that a lot, where there's this
perception that it's really hard to adopt, and
it's really difficult to adopt, and people go

(56:22):
and get puppies because they can't get a
rescue dog.
And I think it's a big passion of
mine that we should be moving away from
that being the truth.
And I think it is in a lot
of places.
But all of the things that we've talked
about demonstrate how difficult it is for dog
owners, or dog guardians at the minute, and
dogs.
And I often just think like, you know,

(56:45):
when we hear things like, oh, you can't
work full time and have a dog, well,
how do you afford vet care then?
Or, you know, like, the dogs can never
be left, or you have to have a
seven foot fence or something, but actually the
people have no intention of leaving the dog
in the garden because they go for a
walk three times a day.
And I just think, like, we should have
a flexible approach to adoption, because A, people

(57:08):
can just go out and buy a puppy,
and there's no pre-questionnaire for that.
And B, like, the number of animals that
we can help, and something that we talk
about a lot on this theme is the
good enough home.
So, like, often we end up looking for
this needle in a haystack home, like, oh,

(57:28):
can they live in the children, or this,
that, and the other, and never left.
But actually, most dogs are going to have
a great life in a good enough home.
Like, when I first had my dog, I
didn't have a garden, we just went for
more walks than we do now, because now
we've got a garden, you know, like, you
can work with people to get good outcomes.
So that's my big one for sheltering, is

(57:49):
supporting a flexible approach.
And then the wider world, like, you know,
just like us to all be able to
have conversations like adults, really.
It's quite a big one, but I think
it's important in the minute.
It is, but it's not, again, it's not.
I feel like it's challenging to talk about
things that, you know, the stakes are so

(58:10):
high for these dogs, and the people involved,
and we care so much.
And when you throw in different personalities and
opinions there, it gets hard to adult.
Adulting can be hard sometimes, Tom.
It's very hard.
But yes, no, I agree.
And hopefully some of the things we've talked

(58:31):
about in these last few episodes give some
ideas or areas to, or some signposts for
going and looking at other ways to build
your skill and knowledge.
And I like that good enough home.
Reminds me of, we did a podcast episode
years ago with Nancy Tucker, who talked about

(58:55):
a good enough dog.
And that was really helpful for a lot
of people to just let go of some
of the pressures that one puts on themselves
to have a, he quotes, perfect dog.
Like, you just need a dog that is
good enough for you and your home.
And the client needs a dog that's good

(59:15):
enough for them in their home.
Shout out to the awesome Nancy Tucker.
Hey Tom, this has been so much fun.
So just before we finish up, I nearly
forgot, just remind everyone listening where they can
go online to say hi and find out
more about what you do.
Yeah.
So the best place is simplifyingshelterbehavior.com.

(59:37):
And you can spell that the right way,
the British way, or you can spell it
the American way.
So it doesn't matter if you have a
U or don't have a U in behavior,
it should still come up.
And then yeah, same for the podcast and
Facebook.
So simplifying shelter behavior.
There's no right or wrong way.

(59:58):
There's better and worse.
Thanks so much, Tom.
We really appreciate everything that you're doing for
the dogs that you work with, the humans
that you work with, and for helping spread
information, build knowledge and build skills.
So thank you for all that you do
and for hanging out with us at ATA.

(01:00:18):
Thanks for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.

(01:00:41):
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them, and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.

(01:01:02):
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.

(01:01:23):
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome, and remember, every interaction with an animal
or human learner is your opportunity to create
ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.