May 19, 2025 • 51 mins
In this first installment of a two-part conversation,, we welcome Tom Candy—Certified Clinical Animal Behaviorist and founder of Simplifying Shelter Behaviour—for an engaging discussion that dives deep into the realities, challenges, and opportunities within the world of shelter and rescue animal care.
With over 15 years of experience in the field, Tom shares practical wisdom drawn from his work across the UK’s largest dog welfare organization and his efforts to elevate animal welfare and training standards in shelters. His perspective blends hands-on experience, academic rigor, and a deep passion for improving the lives of both animals and the humans who care for them.
Throughout this episode, we explore:
✅ Common myths and misconceptions around “rescue behavior problems”
✅ How training and behavior programs can be realistically integrated into shelter environments
✅ The value of consistency, environmental management, and caregiver education
✅ Why language and communication matter when discussing animal behavior in shelter settings
✅ The importance of data collection, reflective practice, and organizational buy-in for sustainable change
Tom’s grounded, compassionate approach provides a refreshing look at behavior modification within the shelter context—emphasizing empowerment over blame, collaboration over quick fixes, and science over assumption. Whether you're a trainer, behavior consultant, volunteer, or shelter staff member, this conversation offers inspiration and actionable takeaways to help improve outcomes for animals in your care.
Links
https://open.spotify.com/show/1Ea6VTImAPcnlXilJYunij?si=9494adef3f064d14
https://simplifyingshelterbehaviour.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'll
be talking to one Tom Candy.
Tom started volunteering in rescue and sheltering at
the age of 15, and it quickly became
(01:53):
his passion.
A drive for improving the behavioral health of
animals led him to undertake a Bachelor of
Science and Honours, a degree in bio-veterinary
science, and a Master's of Science degree in
clinical animal behaviour from the University of Lincoln
in the United Kingdom.
(02:14):
Tom's been involved in a variety of aspects
of rescue, including fundraising, home checking, transporting, and
day-to-day operations.
Since graduating, he's worked at the UK's largest
dog welfare organisation as a training and behaviour
advisor, later becoming Senior Training and Behaviour Advisor,
(02:35):
supporting re-homings into teams across the South
West United Kingdom.
Tom is also a Certified Clinical Animal Behaviourist
with the Animal Behaviour and Training Council, a
Certified Canine Behaviour Consultant, and Certified Shelter Behaviour
Specialist with the International Association of Animal Behaviour
(02:57):
Consultants, and as a trustee for Hope Rescue
Wales.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Tom to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by on the other side
of the world.
Tom, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and geek out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Yeah, and this is a pretty rare situation
(03:22):
for me out of 200-something episodes, 253,
to have met a guest in person before
jumping on the show.
We were fortunate enough to be in the
same pin drop on the map and born
UK out of all places.
Yeah, very random.
(03:42):
That was fun though, the Pet Professional Guild
British Isle Summit.
That's a mouthful.
And we were both there last year.
When was that, God, Tom?
October?
October time, I think.
Yeah, it was good.
It was a bit chilly.
Yeah, it was.
But that actually worked in our advantage because
(04:03):
it meant that some of the presenters didn't
want to go outside.
And so we got treated to a really
cool Leslie McDevitt and Sarah Fisher joint session
because they both wanted to stay warm.
Yeah, which was really cool, wasn't it?
Two absolute greats.
Yeah, yeah.
(04:23):
And I think you were giving me grief
because I showed up in shorts.
You're like, what are you doing, mate?
But I brought a pair.
You don't understand UK weather, but I brought
a pair of spare jeans, so we're fine.
But let's dive straight into this episode, Tom.
I'm excited to learn more about your journey.
So I was hoping that you could please
take the listeners back and share a little
(04:46):
bit of it.
Share where you first learned about animal training,
animal behavior, about positive reinforcement.
Did that all start at 15 years of
age or did you get interested and get
started before that?
Yeah, so it's an interesting one in terms
of my start in the career.
So originally, yeah, I've always wanted to work
(05:07):
with animals.
I've always been interested in that side of
things.
And particularly sort of 15 years ago in
the UK, if you wanted to do that,
you were very much pushed towards veterinary and
becoming a vet.
And as part of that, you have to
do a number of weeks work experience before
they'll kind of consider you.
So I started volunteering for a small rescue
(05:29):
in South Wales called Hope Rescue, which I'm
now a trustee of.
And I just always remember the first day
I just turned up and we stood outside
Pets at Home, which is like one of
the large pet shop chains in the UK.
And they gave me this little dog to
look after called Faith, who was like a
Staffordshire Bull Terrier who'd lost a lot of
her fur because she'd had mange.
(05:51):
And they said sort of, you know, just
tell her story.
And we spent the day talking about this
dog and telling her story.
And that's really where I kind of fell
in love with rescue.
And I was like, right, this is what
I want to do moving forward.
And then the training side of things, I
remember my parents going to West Wales, so
(06:11):
like a more rural part of Wales, and
going to a car boot sale and coming
back with Victoria Stillwell's It's Me or the
Dog book.
And that was sort of the first ever
dog training book that I read probably, I
don't know, maybe around like the age of
12 or something.
So my first kind of foray into positive
reinforcement.
And obviously, back then, it still was a
(06:33):
bit mixed, but kind of just introduced me
to that journey.
And then the more that I got involved
with rescue, the more that I learned.
And yeah, that took me I still wasn't
really sure about my journey.
So I went to study bio veterinary science
first.
And then whilst I was at uni, I
got the opportunity to meet Professor Daniel Mills
(06:54):
and speak to some of the amazing team
that the University of Lincoln has, which strongly
led me kind of down the behaviour route.
And so that was kind of a brief
overview.
It's a bit kind of messed, because it
wasn't really where I thought I was going.
But that's where I ended up, which I'm
obviously really pleased about.
What was it about?
How old were you as well, when you
(07:16):
met Faith?
And what was it about that experience that
sold you on Shatterwick?
I mean, I remember similar experiences in my
life.
So I'm kind of in my mind, I
think experiencing what you were experiencing in terms
of like, yeah, cool.
This is amazing.
I want to do this.
(07:37):
What was it about Shatters?
Yeah, so, um, yeah, I was, I think
I was literally about two weeks into my
15th, like just after my 15th birthday.
And my mum still had to drive me
to all of the events that we used
to do, you know, because I didn't have
a license or anything back then.
And I think it was just seeing this
(07:58):
dog that he had obviously been through a
bit of a struggle, had had a medical
condition that had gone untreated, but the rescue
was able to pick up and fix and
telling her story.
And then ultimately, then a couple of weeks
later, seeing her go home, just made me
think like, oh, these dogs, like they don't
(08:19):
really have anyone else.
So we have this opportunity to take whatever
experiences they've had and change those experience to
something hopefully a lot more positive and spread
all of the great information that rescues can
spread about welfare and improving quality of life
and welfare and all those good things.
Just kind of captured me really.
(08:41):
And at that point, I still wasn't sure
whether I wanted to be a vet, but
I was very strongly in the camp of
kind of supporting these animals that didn't really
have anyone else at that point when they
come into the shelter.
It sounds like quite a deep reflection for
a 15 year old.
Would you, would you say that in amongst
your group of mates, you were like kind
(09:03):
of focused on something and at a time
where kids are being kids and wanting to
do kid things?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I definitely had a good mix of
stuff going on, but yeah, it was pretty
much like most weekends I was doing fundraising
or walking dogs at the kennels or doing
something to do with volunteering for this rescue.
(09:26):
And I remember like after finishing GCSEs, so
what, like 16, um, you know, in the
UK you have quite a long summer.
So you finish all of your exams and
then you kind of not really back at
school then until September.
And I remember just like moving all of
these dogs around the country.
So what Hope does is, um, at that
(09:47):
point they didn't have like their own kennels
or anything.
So they used some foster homes, but they
took a lot of the stray dogs who
were at risk of euthanasia and then moved
them to other organizations across the UK.
So I just remember spending like hours and
hours, like in a van, not able to
drive, just like there for the company, moving
these dogs around the country.
And it definitely like did help me kind
(10:09):
of focus in on where I wanted my
career to go.
And I would say like out of my
friends group, even to the point at uni,
I was very clear in, in where I
wanted to go and what I wanted to
do.
Um, which is obviously a really lucky position
to be in because it's meant that I've
just kind of come this, this, like, I
know it sounds like cringy, doesn't it?
(10:31):
But like rescue is literally in my life.
It's like the only job I've ever had.
It's the only thing I've ever done.
Um, which has obviously just allowed me to
build a really great kind of experience base
and work with a lot of amazing people
to develop in that area.
Obviously rescues are plentiful, unfortunately.
Um, and therefore people listening to this show,
(10:55):
there's going to be a significant, decent slice
of the pie where we're talking directly to
people who are working or involved in that
space.
Uh, and it makes me curious about these
people and how they got into rescue.
(11:15):
Did they at 15 decide rescue is what
I want to do?
It struck me as quite a unique focus.
And, and, and when thinking about dogs wanting
to go down that rescue route, and I
know that you work with a lot of,
uh, shelters and the people that work within
shelters, do you, do you find that kind
of passion in young people now?
(11:36):
Or do you think that was quite unique
specifically for working with rescues?
Yeah, I think it was definitely.
Yeah.
I still now, like when I go to
conferences and stuff, I'm one of the younger
people in the room, but definitely back then,
like, I remember going on like courses and
events that other rescues put on and I
(11:56):
was like by far the youngest person there.
Um, and I think it's mixed.
Like, do you think now a lot more
doors are open?
So like, I think particularly when, when we
think about the behavior world in the UK,
there's a lot more universities now that offer
it as a degree.
So I think it's kind of more on
the radar as like a career choice than
(12:17):
it was before, but it's varied.
Like I'm really lucky to work with some
really passionate people who've been in rescue a
very long time or a fresh in, but,
but share some of the kind of ideals
and drivers that I have.
But yeah, I suppose it was definitely unique
at the time and probably is still quite
(12:38):
a unique position to be in.
And I do feel really lucky to do
that and still do a job that most
of the time, which I'm sure we'll get
into, but most of the time, um, you
know, I really enjoy and really love doing,
um, and that you can see a difference.
Like, I think that's the big thing is
like every day I go to work, I
can see a difference that the teams that
I work with are making.
(12:59):
Um, and I think that's a really privileged
position to be in.
And I'm not personally working in rescues myself,
Tom, but we have a lot of, uh,
our members who, who work in that space.
And we talk a lot about it in
our community and, uh, over the years, many,
many stories and many individuals have been shared
in our membership areas, uh, in that space.
(13:22):
So definitely got a lot of contact with
it, but not working there directly, but I'm
just going to feed you some assumptions I
have and you, and you throw them back
at me and let me know if they're
accurate or not.
But I haven't, haven't come from a, um,
zoo background as well.
I can imagine some parallels and the ones
I'm thinking about, uh, uh, working in that
space, you know, you, you said that you
(13:43):
can see that you go there and you've
made a difference to, uh, faith or whatever
rover, whatever dog you're working with.
Um, but I, but I also can imagine
that there would be a lot of challenging
dogs and situations and people, um, and also
(14:03):
individuals working in that space, uh, likely, uh,
in many situations, space of limited resources, um,
and people so that they're in teams.
And so I, I, I since, and, and
tell me if I'm wrong, that it's quite
a demanding and challenging environment to be involved
(14:24):
in it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it is like, there's no kind
of two ways about it really.
And all of those things that you mentioned,
I'm really lucky that I work as you
mentioned that in the UK is largest dog
welfare organization.
And we're really lucky with the facilities that
we've got, but there's still things that you're
constantly wanting or needing or thinking about that
(14:45):
you don't have access to.
And time is one of the big ones,
you know, it seems like however many staff
you've got in on a day, you could
still do with another 10, or you could
still find jobs that don't get completed by
the end of it.
Um, and like you said, a lot of
that is the drive for doing the best
for these animals because they are from challenging
backgrounds or there's difficult things happening at the
(15:07):
time.
So there is that element of it.
And I think it just kind of feeds
into a bit of camaraderie that you do
get like there's definitely down times, but I
think you've got to become really good at
focusing in on the good, because otherwise you
would just get a bit kind of bogged
down in, in all the negativity.
(15:29):
Um, and I think that is something that
we're getting better about talking about as well,
because I think before it was just kind
of was, and then you carried on or
you left the industry, which I think is
a big shame.
And then particularly around COVID and all of
the stuff that happened, I think a lot
of people kind of reconsidered their choices and
left the industry, which was a hard hit
(15:50):
because it means now, you know, a lot
of the new people coming in and learning
from people who maybe don't have as much
experience and that adds to the challenge even
more.
Um, but I think, yeah, we are starting
to get a bit better about having conversations
about the difficulties and, and mental health and,
um, impact empathic strain and all of those
(16:11):
challenges that come with working in an environment
like this.
Um, and I think the other thing that
we've got to remember is it's so varied,
like the resources available to rescues are so
varied depending on which country you're in, which
area of that country, how well presented the
organization is to the public.
Um, and I know a lot of rescues
(16:33):
that have amazing volunteer and even within the
same organization, I work with multiple centers and
I know some volunteers that come in and
work with, you know, the tricky dogs or
dogs that even some of the staff aren't
keen to get out.
Um, and we've got these amazing volunteers and
then other places where, you know, they might
have a couple of volunteers who come in
every other week, but they don't have a
(16:54):
kind of consistent stream.
So it's an interesting industry because there's so
many kind of changes, changes to the challenges,
depending on the situation.
Yeah.
I was going to ask you how you
personally, um, maintain.
I, I, I, I feel it could like
be disorientating in terms of like working in
(17:17):
shelters.
And, and this is something that we see
across our membership, regardless of if they work
in shelters or, or doing in-home consults
or working in the zoo industry or something,
you know, you, you, you learn about behavior,
you get all enthused, enthusiastic, you, you learn
about different ways of training, you decide on
your chosen tools and you're like, right, I'm
(17:42):
going to go out there and I'm going
to change the world, you know, and then,
and then you hit that reality, you hit
the, the resources and the team works.
And, and also you said people were reconsidering
their choices in COVID.
Um, if it's anything like the zoo industry,
Tom, I don't think you're going to like,
um, build large levels of wealth personally working,
(18:07):
working in these industries.
So you've got all of that.
Um, and then, and then you have those
realities that, that, uh, coming into contact with
the drive and passion and enthusiasm that the
members of our show have, that's where I
was suggesting that disorientation comes from.
And you said, you know, you've got to
remain positive.
(18:28):
Is that, is that something that you have
developed and intentionally built in yourself or is
it just part of your natural character?
Would you say?
I think that's a really interesting question because
I probably would have answered it quite differently
a few years ago.
So I think I've always been quite good
at sort of compartmentalizing things and looking at
(18:49):
the bigger picture, which is what I try
and do with everything, you know, whether it's
supporting staff or looking at individual dogs for
decisions is just keeping that bigger picture in
mind of, you know, how can we help
as many dogs as possible, um, or as
many animals as possible.
But I would say that generally, like, like
I said earlier, I've always enjoyed my job.
(19:11):
I've never really, you obviously have up days
and bad days, but overall, I've always been
really positive towards the industry and the work
that we do.
And then I was speaking to a colleague,
um, I think it was about two years
ago now.
And we talked about this in October and,
you know, I was speaking to a colleague
and I was a bit like, oh, I
actually think like I've, I've been out like,
(19:34):
and I hadn't really realized.
And when I started to look back at
a couple of months before that point, you
know, I was just driving to my centers.
So my role involves a lot of driving
across the country.
And I was basically getting in the van
in the morning, driving there, seeing some dogs
and giving advice, but not really processing anything,
getting back in the van and driving back.
(19:54):
And that was kind of the end of
it.
Like almost, I think other people kind of
describe it as like being numb or not
really, I felt like I was on autopilot,
um, which is something that I hadn't really
experienced before.
And it wasn't even like a particularly stressful
time or, you know, I couldn't narrow down
like a trigger for this event to happen,
(20:16):
but I just kind of really gradually noticed
that I'd, I'd lost that passion.
And I was really lucky.
I spoke to a couple of kind of
colleagues and, um, I think even just recognizing
that in myself was a really good step
for me to be able to get back
to, um, the more positive side of things.
But it was a really interesting experience because
yeah, in 10 years, it hadn't been a
(20:38):
position that I was in before, even though
I'd probably been in more challenging situations with
some of the previous roles that I've done.
Um, so I do think I'm lucky in
the way that I kind of perceive things
and look at things.
I'm quite good at compartmentalizing and looking at
that larger picture, like I've already mentioned, but
did go through this kind of low patch
(20:59):
that really makes you think about the strain
that the industry is under.
And particularly in my role where I'm supporting
others, I now like kind of approach things
in a bit of a different way to
support wellbeing, um, than I probably would have
previously.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry.
You went through that and thanks for sharing
(21:20):
with us and said you talked to a
bunch of colleagues.
So what, like, how did you then navigate
your way through processing that?
Cause I imagine that was a pretty stark
realization.
It kind of like slaps you around the
head and wakes you up a little bit
in a way, but like, it's kind of
scary at the same time.
Yeah, definitely.
(21:40):
And obviously what, as you just said, it
kind of did snap me out of it
just by itself.
Like just recognizing that this is kind of
the place I was in and I'm lucky
that, um, kind of, I work in a
team of people.
So obviously I support the Southwest of the
UK and then I have counterpart, counterparts that
do, um, the other areas.
So I have people in the same role
(22:01):
that I do.
Um, and it was speaking to one of
them and actually just seeing how passionate they
were.
Then I was a bit like, Oh, where's,
where's mine gone?
Like, this is what I was like two
weeks, like two months ago or whatever.
Um, so that actually made quite a big
step in me getting back to, you know,
the person that I normally think I am.
(22:22):
Um, and then it was just maybe just
talking through some of the things I was
struggling with, which I just think I, I,
so I've been in the role that I
do now, I've been doing for six years.
So I think I've just kind of reached
a natural low of even though it's different
every day, it almost just became a bit
monotonous.
And, um, I think, like I mentioned, we
all, I know everybody kind of struggled through
(22:44):
COVID and definitely in the shelter and rescue
side of things, we're seeing the downside of
that even now and continuing, continually building on
that.
So I think it was just that combination
of kind of three, four, five, very stressful
years then leading to this point.
Um, and then, yeah, the ability to speak
to people about it.
Um, I started to make sure to find
(23:08):
a bit more time for myself.
Um, I started a podcast as well, and
I think actually that helped, like it was
still about behavior in shelter, but it kind
of focused me a little bit more to
do something a bit different and kind of
bring the passion back really.
Cause I have the really great opportunity, um,
as you do Ryan to speak to some
great professionals in the field and hear their
(23:30):
story and their experience, which just every time
I do that, just reinvigorates me to go
back and share that knowledge.
So, um, I'm quite lucky in that regard,
but yeah, I think a big thing as
well was just making sure I actually took
time for myself and had other stuff on
the go as well.
Tom, I remember in 2000, then I don't
(23:53):
know, let's say 17.
And I reached out to Dr. Susan Friedman
and I said, yo, do you want to
be on my podcast?
I didn't say yo.
She said yo back, I'm sure.
But, uh, I'm bringing it up, Tom, bringing
it up because I remember when Susan was
on your show and I remember you, like
(24:15):
she had some Instagram reels or whatever social
media you were sharing and I could see
the passion in you then.
So I think that came to mind as
you were talking then.
Share about like what, I mean, you've already
said it, so you're like, right, I just
said that.
But like, how did you feel like kind
of getting those opportunities to connect with people
(24:40):
that, now up until stages in my life,
in your life, I imagine, I'm not speaking
on your behalf, Tom, so you can correct
me, but that there are people that were
kind of at a distance maybe, or people
that you learned from that were kind of
like, you felt you knew, but you didn't
really know.
What was that experience like for you?
(25:02):
Yeah, definitely.
So I think it was a combination of
things for me.
I think the first one is, like I
said, I'm really lucky to have worked in
an organization for 10 years in September.
And it's a great organization to be a
part of.
But I think what happens is you become
(25:22):
used to the norms in that organization and
then some of the frustrations start coming out
because of, you know, how things were before
or other experiences you've had.
And I kind of kind of got lost
in that world a bit.
So then when I started to open up
and speak to other people from different shelters,
you see some of the challenges they're facing
and it can bring things back into perspective
(25:43):
or it kind of changes your view of
these micro frustrations that almost build up on
top of each other.
And then the flip side of that, the
big part was, like you said, is these
people that you kind of hold on a
pedestal, and particularly Susan Friedman, like she's way
up there for me.
But, you know, these people that you've learned
(26:04):
from, like you said, or you hold on
a pedestal, you really respect.
And for me, it was them just like,
just how willing they were to give up
their time and come to talk about dogs
in these difficult shelter environments and how we
could support them.
Because I've never done a podcast before or
anything.
And I kind of started off with like
people that I knew a bit and kind
of invited people that I'd spoken to.
(26:25):
And then I was like, well, if you
don't ask, you don't get.
And started reaching out to much bigger names
and just thinking like, oh, I won't even
get a reply.
And I remember emailing like Jean Donaldson and
she was like, oh my God, like, yeah,
I love talking about resource guarding and shelter.
I'd be really chuffed to come and talk
to you and Susan and other people.
And just seeing like how willing they are
(26:47):
to give up their time to come and
share their knowledge.
I was a bit like, oh yeah, this
is super cool.
And like, this is how we can support
staff and dogs.
Because I think it's such, it can be
very lonely.
And particularly if you work at a shelter
that has a small behavior team or doesn't
have a behavior team.
Like I speak to a lot of people
who just feel a bit lost with the
(27:07):
dogs in their care.
And I think being able to give them
a bit of guidance or support conversations and
facilitate conversations that can help them.
It's just, it's pretty cool.
Like not going to lie, makes you feel
good.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I've been doing this for
nine years now, so it's obviously reinforces in
(27:28):
there.
And I think you've named, you've named some
of them.
So you said there what happens, I'm going
to butcher what you said here, but I'm
going to paraphrase it.
You know, what happens in your organizations, you
become used to those norms.
And that, like, I feel like a word
to sum that up would be culture.
(27:48):
Culture being defined as a shared set of
behaviors and ideas and values.
Yeah.
Yes.
I would agree.
Like there's definitely can be a lot of
frustration around culture in a number of the
organizations that I know and work with.
But I think it's also interesting when you've
done a couple of different roles and you
(28:09):
may be working with people who are now
in a role that you previously did.
And you remember how it was when you
did it and you don't necessarily think of
how the world has changed around you.
So the thing that we talk about, particularly
in the UK at the minute, is like
this perfect storm.
So obviously during COVID, lots of people got
(28:30):
dogs.
Like we couldn't get dogs into rescue quick
enough to get them out again.
Like the supply versus demand was different to
what we've ever seen before.
And now obviously people are going back to
work.
These younger dogs are hitting adolescence and they
had less experiences because of lockdowns and all
of that fun stuff.
And then in the UK and I know
(28:52):
other places as well, obviously, we've got this
cost of living crisis now where, you know,
people are struggling to afford vet care and
can't get a behavior help because of that
monetary barrier.
And these dogs are now coming into kennels
and you sometimes forget that all of that
has happened.
So you kind of look back to what
(29:13):
we were able to achieve a few years
ago.
And that has moved.
Like I think that is now a reality
that most rescues are putting their hands up
and saying, like, we can't do what we
used to do at the minute.
Like we're obviously all aiming to get back
there, but it is like the landscape is
so different to what it was when I
started 10 years ago.
(29:35):
But it's sometimes kind of, well, it's just
difficult to live in this reality because you
know what we could achieve before.
And now there's just a lot more barriers
in place to achieve that.
And obviously we're trying to work around those.
But I think that can just be tricky
when you've been doing it for a long
time and you've kind of lived through those
changes, I guess.
(29:55):
Yeah, it makes me think about something to
get one through some of the things we've
talked about today and to have a career
that spans a decade or more requires flexibility.
So I was talking to someone about, as
(30:17):
you mentioned, the cost of living crisis.
And someone made a statement like, oh, I'm
just going to wait until things get a
bit better.
But it's like, hang on, we were in
2019 and there was COVID.
And then there was a global recession and
cost of living crisis.
And now there's all this geopolitical stuff going
(30:38):
on.
When are things going to get better?
You need to roll the punches.
And that's been something that I've only really
learned recently, I think.
But it sounds like that's also something that's
going to be present in the shelter world.
And how does flexibility and the need for
flexibility play into your role and the role
(30:58):
of people that work in the shelter environment?
Yeah, I mean, it's just massively important because
you just never know what's coming the next
day.
And I think that's always been true.
You just don't know if somebody is going
to ring you up and say, so there's
150 dogs in this hoarder situation that you
need to find space for.
(31:20):
And you're like, oh, cool.
So we've got 30 kennels.
And then you're having to think of, right,
is there other organizations they can go to?
Do we have foster homes set up?
If they're coming from a hoarder situation, we
generally know nothing about these dogs other than
they've probably not living in the best environment.
(31:40):
And then you kind of have that banding
together to achieve really, some of the things
that are completely unhinged, like when you think
of it, like trying to find space for
150 dogs in the space of two days
is just mental.
But like you said, it's rolling with those
punches.
Some days you could just have a dog
who comes into the kennels who just doesn't
(32:02):
want anyone near them.
And they might be showing aggressive behaviors to
demonstrate that point, but you know, they've got
to come out of the kennel.
Like it's not hygienic.
It's not safe for them to stay in
that for a couple of days on end
without coming out.
So, you could go from almost 100 miles
an hour dealing with the first example to
then having to just go and sit outside
(32:23):
a kennel or come up with a plan
with some staff about how you then support
this one individual who's really struggling.
And then like you mentioned earlier, you then
could go from that to speaking to somebody
who's having to hand over their dog for
no reason, no wrongdoing of their own, who's,
you know, absolutely gutted and you're helping them
to try and understand that actually this is
(32:45):
the right decision.
And I know like maybe some listeners will
be surprised by that, but we've also got
to live in the flexible world that sometimes,
you know, we can't keep the animals in
our life or something happens that we need
extra support.
And it is our shelter and rescue to
also be there and support those owners because
we never know where they're going to be
(33:06):
in the future.
And we obviously want the best for the
animal in that moment.
But also, like I said, we don't know
what that person's journey is going to be
after.
We want to support them the best that
we can.
So, even day to day, it's like constant
changing environment, which is then, you know, often
catapulted out.
And, you know, I know we've talked about
(33:27):
some negative things as we've gone through this,
but a big memory of mine as well
is in the UK, we had the whole
Excel bully thing.
So, the government announced that they were adding
the American Bully Excel to the banned list
of dogs in the UK, which was a
massive, it kind of been talked about for
a while, but nobody actually thought it would
happen.
(33:47):
And I remember that was like, I just
remember hearing on the news and we would,
me and my partner were driving to meet
our friends.
And he said like, are you okay?
Like I think we'd stopped at the services
and I'd just seen it on my phone
that they'd announced the ban.
And I started like crying while we were
driving.
And I'm not, I'm an emotional guy, but
I don't cry very often at work and
(34:07):
stuff.
I've been around a long time.
And I just remember, yeah, just being completely
devastated by this decision that the government had
made and the effect that that was going
to have.
So it's the long-winded way around.
So yes, it varies massively day to day,
and you've got to be able to roll
with the punches because otherwise you just get
swum down completely and it just wouldn't work
(34:30):
as a sector.
We said earlier that one of the, and
we brushed over it a little bit, so
let's unpack it a bit, or not, if
you don't think that there is much more
to be said there, but I just think
it's super important that you said you've spent
a little bit more time on yourself when
you hit that numbness and awareness of the
(34:53):
lack of passion or the loss of passion
that you experienced.
So are you able to get home and
leave that stuff at work?
And how important has doing some non, and
I'm assuming that you're doing this, you can
again tell me if I'm wrong, doing some
(35:14):
non-dog stuff or some non-shouter stuff,
like how important has that been?
Yeah, definitely.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because I don't think you can leave it.
I don't think it's the type of job,
and I think this is true of any
of the listeners, like any care-based role
where we're supporting people and animals.
I don't know many people that got into
(35:35):
animal training because they don't like animals.
It just doesn't really mash together, does it?
So we kind of just end up in
these situations where I don't think you can
leave it at the door, and my partner
works in a similar field with humans and
is exactly the same.
So I think what we've got to do
is find activities that allow us to take
(35:57):
a breath and not feel like we're leaving
things, but have the opportunity.
So I'm really lucky.
I'm a true water baby.
I surf, I kayak, I scuba dive, I
stand up paddleboard.
We've literally just moved.
We moved in January.
So I live in North Devon in the
UK, which is on the coastline anyway, but
we've now moved so that we can see
the beach from our house, which is super
(36:19):
cool.
So earlier today, I've been in the water,
and it just, for me, is a way
to just take my mind off things, particularly
when I'm scuba diving.
You can't really think about a lot of
stuff going on because there's awesome stuff to
see, and you're under water where we're not
designed to be.
So it's quite a good way to switch
(36:39):
off.
But I think the difficulty that we have
in the animal care industry is that even
switching off can make us feel bad.
We feel like we're possibly letting people down
or dogs down, and I know that's particularly
true where we're short staffed, or we are
worried about that one dog that maybe only
(36:59):
we could get out of the kennel, and
now it's the weekend and we've got to
leave them there.
And a conversation that I regularly have with
staff now is like, what's worse?
And it is quite extreme, but what's worse?
Us actually turning our phones off and walking
away for an evening and doing something with
our family or going to the cinema or
(37:21):
doing something to probably switch off, and then
come back refreshed and ready and raring to
go the next day, or powering through or
perceiving that we're powering through and then having
to take longer periods of time off to
recover or manage our own well-being.
And I think often we kind of, like
I said, we punish ourself or we feel
(37:42):
bad or we feel like we're letting people
down if we take that time for ourselves,
but it's just not feasible to do it
any other way, like we see that again
and again.
And it's quite a new term to me,
but I mentioned earlier this kind of empathic
strain is a slightly different way of thinking
about compassion fatigue, and it's a term that
(38:02):
I much prefer, because I think for me
compassion fatigue feels very final, or if you
burn out you're at the end, or if
you're fatigued by a compassion.
I almost struggle to see a way back
from that, like I know people can, but
for me it feels very finite, whereas when
we think of empathic strain, we know a
(38:25):
strain can, we can stretch things out or
we can bring them back in, and I
feel like it's a lot more flexible and
makes us maybe consider that longer-term effect
of things and recognising that actually taking that
tiny bit of time for ourself can really
help support us, support the people we work
with, because if we're grouchy and horrible to
(38:47):
be around, that doesn't support anybody either, and
obviously support the animals in our care.
But yeah, the phrase that I quite often
say is like, we're not working with tins
of beans, like I think if you work
at Tesco's and you stock your shelf, it's
quite easy to then come home from, but
I think yeah, like I said at the
start, I don't think we can leave it
(39:07):
at the door, but what we've got to
do is like, hold space for it, but
keep space for ourself as well, so that
we can recover and be the best that
we can be.
Such a British example to give a tin
of beans.
I remember my British friend came hitchhiking over
here and she got a lift and the
(39:28):
people that gave her a lift were like,
do you want to come stay at our
house?
And she got there and they're like, okay,
we're going to make some beans and potatoes
for dinner.
She's like, no, I try to get away
from home.
Anyway, we digress.
Thank you for sharing all of that.
I also just wanted to draw on something,
and I hope it's valuable for you to
listen to, but working in these team environments
(39:49):
and thinking about culture and some of the
things we've talked about today and what you
bring as an individual, I recently did this
online strength finder exercise, Tom.
I had to pay for it.
It was recommended to me by someone I'm
doing some mentoring with, and you answer all
(40:11):
of these questions and it shows you your
strength.
I'm curious if we share a strength, because
my number one strength was called futuristic, and
it means that I'm living in the future,
but I have clarity around the future and
I can see it and articulate it, and
therefore I can put plans in place to
(40:33):
get there.
That's a strength of mine based on this
tool, but it's not perfect.
It is a tool, but it was really
interesting to reflect upon.
But that can, for those who don't see
the world that way, be really frustrating and
confusing, because you're talking about things that they
(40:54):
can't imagine, that they don't want to think
about the future, they want to think about
now.
I explained that to my wife.
She's like, oh my God, yes.
But you talk about seeing the future as
well, and that's been something that's helped you.
Do you think that's important in terms of
(41:15):
working in shelters and also for the listener
who might not be that way wired?
Is there value in just pondering on this
idea of being there with 150 dogs and
needing to find places for them?
But when you get faced with, well firstly,
(41:36):
is that a real-life problem that you
were faced with?
And then secondly, does your mind see the
future in that situation?
So yeah, it is a real problem that
I've had at least.
Well, not me personally, but the teams I've
worked with, I've had four times recently, as
in the last maybe, I don't know, four
(41:56):
months.
150 would be a big number, but that
definitely has happened.
And then yeah, I think you have to
have a balance of living in the moment
and understand, but also recognising potential for opportunities
or even just thinking about where trends are
going.
And I think that is something that we've
(42:17):
been having to think about more as an
industry.
And again, the dreaded C word, but after
COVID, I think it was really weird to
be like, oh, the world can literally just
change tomorrow.
And we definitely talk a lot more about
future-proofing and planning and thinking about what
(42:38):
we can do.
And a lot of rescues now have also
realised, which is like a slight tangent to
your question, but realised that actually like brick
and mortar is probably not the way to
go.
And a lot more energy now is being,
so what I mean by that is actual
kennel spaces.
So having 50 kennels or whatever, and a
(42:59):
lot more focus is being put on trying
to keep animals and owners together, which I
think is super important, but then also having
different structures that can help more animals in
a better way.
So one thing that we talk about with
that is like a homestay programme or like
a home direct.
So somebody who's aware that their animal will
(43:21):
need to be rehomed in the near future,
whether that's illness or they're moving or whatever,
and they're able to then advertise their animal
for adoption through a rescue and with rescue
support, but they stay in the home until
a home's found.
And obviously that's a lot less stressful for
the animal.
It reduces the pressure on rescue spaces for
dogs that don't have that option.
(43:43):
And then similar with foster homes, we can
kind of build those networks.
So I think there is an element of
that future proofing and future thinking because we're
just very aware now like how quickly situations
can change.
And I guess it comes back to that
adaptability conversation that we've had.
So yeah, it's an interesting one because I
(44:06):
think you have to be in the moment
because of the type of world that we're
working in, but more and more now we
see a demand for thinking about the future.
It sounds like it's a role that requires
a lot of the things we've talked about.
I was going to say adaptability, and I
was like, we've just talked a lot about
that.
Because we're nearing, I think, a length that
(44:26):
probably is going to be the maximum of
people's car drives or dishwashing experiences as they
listen to this podcast.
So let's end and talk about where I'm
excited to let you know that I'm going
to invite Tom back.
We're going to be talking about more about
some of these things we've talked about on
this episode in a more structured way.
But Tom, can you just share the listeners
(44:47):
what your current role is, what it entails
and then also about the work you do
because you've got your finger in lots of
different pies.
You're still a trustee on The Hope, was
it?
You're doing a lot of the Grisha Stewart
Academy, you've got your day job and then
(45:07):
you've got Simplifying Shouter Behavior, which is your
own project, which your podcast is linked to.
Just whatever is most valuable to you or
you think is going to be the most
valuable to the listeners.
Share a little bit about what takes up
your time in 2025.
Yeah, definitely.
Like you said, it's not really a short
list.
There's a line from, this is so like
(45:28):
culturally random, but there's a line from Legally
Blonde The Musical that's like, how have you
done all of this stuff?
And it's like, oh, I've not slept since
1992.
And I do feel like that sometimes.
But yeah, so my kind of big thing
at the minute is Simplifying Shouter Behavior, like
you said, which is a Facebook page and
(45:52):
Instagram and podcast aimed at giving tips and
tricks to people who work in shelter and
rescue.
So I mentioned it earlier on those teams
that have small or non-existent behavior departments,
trying to give them the best information possible
to support them in helping dogs.
(46:12):
So I think that's a big thing.
And like I said, that's kind of where
a lot of the passion came back.
I obviously still love my day job, but
it was doing something a bit different, brought
it back to me.
And yeah, I've got the podcast, which allows
me to speak to really great professionals in
training and behavior or in the shelter world.
And we talk about different topics and how
(46:32):
we can maybe adapt or apply things to
the shelter.
And then what I would say is because
it is a challenging environment, as we've talked
about already, it does give you some good
tips as well.
If you work with owners in the home
environment or dogs in other tricky situations, there's
some great tips that have come through the
(46:52):
podcast and stuff.
So that takes up a lot of time.
And then, like you said as well, I'm
on Grisha's team.
So I help out with her side of
things, which is super fun.
There's some great people in that organization that
I like doing things.
So we do case studies and we've just
just come off a members meet talking about
how we can support our aging dogs.
(47:14):
So that was really fun to listen to
everybody's shared experiences and come up with some
great ideas for supporting our pets.
Amazing.
And if somebody is listening to this podcast
and they wanted to reach out or use
some of your looking currently at your simplifying
(47:36):
shelterbehavior.com website, Tom, there's a drop down
menu.
It says services for shelters.
If they wanted some of your services, what
kind of help could they get from you?
Yeah.
So we generally split the service, we, me,
individually split the services into three things.
So we do individual animal support, which is
(47:59):
case studies or case reviews.
If you've got a tricky dog or cat
that you're struggling with, we sit down and
look at options and discussions.
So it's just a bit of guidance around
that.
And then we do team support, which is
staff training, staff development.
So I have a group sessions online.
If you're in the UK, obviously I can
travel.
(48:21):
We do group sessions focused on specific topics
or just development needs.
And then we do organizational support as well.
So looking at standard operating procedures, if you've
got particularly challenging things, you know, regular occurrences
that you want to look at and address,
I'm more than happy to talk through that
side of stuff as well.
So there's kind of those three pillars to
(48:42):
hopefully improving behavioral health for the animals in
our care.
Awesome.
Well, we will link to simplifying shelter behavior
and Tom's socials in the write up for
this episode.
But obviously you'll have smartphones now and you
don't need to actually go to podcast write
(49:02):
ups to find links.
So you can Google all of that yourself.
Tom Candy, your picture on Facebook is a
diving picture.
Am I correct?
It is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So therefore, you can identify Tom from one
of his passions on Facebook.
Well, Thomas has been, of course, so much
fun.
Thank you so much for coming and hanging
(49:24):
out with me on this first of our
two episodes where you guys are listeners on
Animal Training Academy.
I really appreciate your time and look forward
to doing part two with you for the
listeners.
We're going to do it directly after, even
though it's going to be two weeks later.
Thank you so much.
(49:44):
Brilliant.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
(50:07):
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
(50:28):
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
(50:49):
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we've been on a mission
to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode, as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
But we will start today's episode where I'll
be talking to one Tom Candy.
Tom started volunteering in rescue and sheltering at
the age of 15, and it quickly became
(01:53):
his passion.
A drive for improving the behavioral health of
animals led him to undertake a Bachelor of
Science and Honours, a degree in bio-veterinary
science, and a Master's of Science degree in
clinical animal behaviour from the University of Lincoln
in the United Kingdom.
(02:14):
Tom's been involved in a variety of aspects
of rescue, including fundraising, home checking, transporting, and
day-to-day operations.
Since graduating, he's worked at the UK's largest
dog welfare organisation as a training and behaviour
advisor, later becoming Senior Training and Behaviour Advisor,
(02:35):
supporting re-homings into teams across the South
West United Kingdom.
Tom is also a Certified Clinical Animal Behaviourist
with the Animal Behaviour and Training Council, a
Certified Canine Behaviour Consultant, and Certified Shelter Behaviour
Specialist with the International Association of Animal Behaviour
(02:57):
Consultants, and as a trustee for Hope Rescue
Wales.
So without further ado, it's my very great
pleasure to welcome Tom to the show today,
who's patiently waiting by on the other side
of the world.
Tom, thank you so much for taking the
time to come and geek out with us
at Animal Training Academy.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Yeah, and this is a pretty rare situation
(03:22):
for me out of 200-something episodes, 253,
to have met a guest in person before
jumping on the show.
We were fortunate enough to be in the
same pin drop on the map and born
UK out of all places.
Yeah, very random.
(03:42):
That was fun though, the Pet Professional Guild
British Isle Summit.
That's a mouthful.
And we were both there last year.
When was that, God, Tom?
October?
October time, I think.
Yeah, it was good.
It was a bit chilly.
Yeah, it was.
But that actually worked in our advantage because
(04:03):
it meant that some of the presenters didn't
want to go outside.
And so we got treated to a really
cool Leslie McDevitt and Sarah Fisher joint session
because they both wanted to stay warm.
Yeah, which was really cool, wasn't it?
Two absolute greats.
Yeah, yeah.
(04:23):
And I think you were giving me grief
because I showed up in shorts.
You're like, what are you doing, mate?
But I brought a pair.
You don't understand UK weather, but I brought
a pair of spare jeans, so we're fine.
But let's dive straight into this episode, Tom.
I'm excited to learn more about your journey.
So I was hoping that you could please
take the listeners back and share a little
(04:46):
bit of it.
Share where you first learned about animal training,
animal behavior, about positive reinforcement.
Did that all start at 15 years of
age or did you get interested and get
started before that?
Yeah, so it's an interesting one in terms
of my start in the career.
So originally, yeah, I've always wanted to work
(05:07):
with animals.
I've always been interested in that side of
things.
And particularly sort of 15 years ago in
the UK, if you wanted to do that,
you were very much pushed towards veterinary and
becoming a vet.
And as part of that, you have to
do a number of weeks work experience before
they'll kind of consider you.
So I started volunteering for a small rescue
(05:29):
in South Wales called Hope Rescue, which I'm
now a trustee of.
And I just always remember the first day
I just turned up and we stood outside
Pets at Home, which is like one of
the large pet shop chains in the UK.
And they gave me this little dog to
look after called Faith, who was like a
Staffordshire Bull Terrier who'd lost a lot of
her fur because she'd had mange.
(05:51):
And they said sort of, you know, just
tell her story.
And we spent the day talking about this
dog and telling her story.
And that's really where I kind of fell
in love with rescue.
And I was like, right, this is what
I want to do moving forward.
And then the training side of things, I
remember my parents going to West Wales, so
(06:11):
like a more rural part of Wales, and
going to a car boot sale and coming
back with Victoria Stillwell's It's Me or the
Dog book.
And that was sort of the first ever
dog training book that I read probably, I
don't know, maybe around like the age of
12 or something.
So my first kind of foray into positive
reinforcement.
And obviously, back then, it still was a
(06:33):
bit mixed, but kind of just introduced me
to that journey.
And then the more that I got involved
with rescue, the more that I learned.
And yeah, that took me I still wasn't
really sure about my journey.
So I went to study bio veterinary science
first.
And then whilst I was at uni, I
got the opportunity to meet Professor Daniel Mills
(06:54):
and speak to some of the amazing team
that the University of Lincoln has, which strongly
led me kind of down the behaviour route.
And so that was kind of a brief
overview.
It's a bit kind of messed, because it
wasn't really where I thought I was going.
But that's where I ended up, which I'm
obviously really pleased about.
What was it about?
How old were you as well, when you
(07:16):
met Faith?
And what was it about that experience that
sold you on Shatterwick?
I mean, I remember similar experiences in my
life.
So I'm kind of in my mind, I
think experiencing what you were experiencing in terms
of like, yeah, cool.
This is amazing.
I want to do this.
(07:37):
What was it about Shatters?
Yeah, so, um, yeah, I was, I think
I was literally about two weeks into my
15th, like just after my 15th birthday.
And my mum still had to drive me
to all of the events that we used
to do, you know, because I didn't have
a license or anything back then.
And I think it was just seeing this
(07:58):
dog that he had obviously been through a
bit of a struggle, had had a medical
condition that had gone untreated, but the rescue
was able to pick up and fix and
telling her story.
And then ultimately, then a couple of weeks
later, seeing her go home, just made me
think like, oh, these dogs, like they don't
(08:19):
really have anyone else.
So we have this opportunity to take whatever
experiences they've had and change those experience to
something hopefully a lot more positive and spread
all of the great information that rescues can
spread about welfare and improving quality of life
and welfare and all those good things.
Just kind of captured me really.
(08:41):
And at that point, I still wasn't sure
whether I wanted to be a vet, but
I was very strongly in the camp of
kind of supporting these animals that didn't really
have anyone else at that point when they
come into the shelter.
It sounds like quite a deep reflection for
a 15 year old.
Would you, would you say that in amongst
your group of mates, you were like kind
(09:03):
of focused on something and at a time
where kids are being kids and wanting to
do kid things?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like I definitely had a good mix of
stuff going on, but yeah, it was pretty
much like most weekends I was doing fundraising
or walking dogs at the kennels or doing
something to do with volunteering for this rescue.
(09:26):
And I remember like after finishing GCSEs, so
what, like 16, um, you know, in the
UK you have quite a long summer.
So you finish all of your exams and
then you kind of not really back at
school then until September.
And I remember just like moving all of
these dogs around the country.
So what Hope does is, um, at that
(09:47):
point they didn't have like their own kennels
or anything.
So they used some foster homes, but they
took a lot of the stray dogs who
were at risk of euthanasia and then moved
them to other organizations across the UK.
So I just remember spending like hours and
hours, like in a van, not able to
drive, just like there for the company, moving
these dogs around the country.
And it definitely like did help me kind
(10:09):
of focus in on where I wanted my
career to go.
And I would say like out of my
friends group, even to the point at uni,
I was very clear in, in where I
wanted to go and what I wanted to
do.
Um, which is obviously a really lucky position
to be in because it's meant that I've
just kind of come this, this, like, I
know it sounds like cringy, doesn't it?
(10:31):
But like rescue is literally in my life.
It's like the only job I've ever had.
It's the only thing I've ever done.
Um, which has obviously just allowed me to
build a really great kind of experience base
and work with a lot of amazing people
to develop in that area.
Obviously rescues are plentiful, unfortunately.
Um, and therefore people listening to this show,
(10:55):
there's going to be a significant, decent slice
of the pie where we're talking directly to
people who are working or involved in that
space.
Uh, and it makes me curious about these
people and how they got into rescue.
(11:15):
Did they at 15 decide rescue is what
I want to do?
It struck me as quite a unique focus.
And, and, and when thinking about dogs wanting
to go down that rescue route, and I
know that you work with a lot of,
uh, shelters and the people that work within
shelters, do you, do you find that kind
of passion in young people now?
(11:36):
Or do you think that was quite unique
specifically for working with rescues?
Yeah, I think it was definitely.
Yeah.
I still now, like when I go to
conferences and stuff, I'm one of the younger
people in the room, but definitely back then,
like, I remember going on like courses and
events that other rescues put on and I
(11:56):
was like by far the youngest person there.
Um, and I think it's mixed.
Like, do you think now a lot more
doors are open?
So like, I think particularly when, when we
think about the behavior world in the UK,
there's a lot more universities now that offer
it as a degree.
So I think it's kind of more on
the radar as like a career choice than
(12:17):
it was before, but it's varied.
Like I'm really lucky to work with some
really passionate people who've been in rescue a
very long time or a fresh in, but,
but share some of the kind of ideals
and drivers that I have.
But yeah, I suppose it was definitely unique
at the time and probably is still quite
(12:38):
a unique position to be in.
And I do feel really lucky to do
that and still do a job that most
of the time, which I'm sure we'll get
into, but most of the time, um, you
know, I really enjoy and really love doing,
um, and that you can see a difference.
Like, I think that's the big thing is
like every day I go to work, I
can see a difference that the teams that
I work with are making.
(12:59):
Um, and I think that's a really privileged
position to be in.
And I'm not personally working in rescues myself,
Tom, but we have a lot of, uh,
our members who, who work in that space.
And we talk a lot about it in
our community and, uh, over the years, many,
many stories and many individuals have been shared
in our membership areas, uh, in that space.
(13:22):
So definitely got a lot of contact with
it, but not working there directly, but I'm
just going to feed you some assumptions I
have and you, and you throw them back
at me and let me know if they're
accurate or not.
But I haven't, haven't come from a, um,
zoo background as well.
I can imagine some parallels and the ones
I'm thinking about, uh, uh, working in that
space, you know, you, you said that you
(13:43):
can see that you go there and you've
made a difference to, uh, faith or whatever
rover, whatever dog you're working with.
Um, but I, but I also can imagine
that there would be a lot of challenging
dogs and situations and people, um, and also
(14:03):
individuals working in that space, uh, likely, uh,
in many situations, space of limited resources, um,
and people so that they're in teams.
And so I, I, I since, and, and
tell me if I'm wrong, that it's quite
a demanding and challenging environment to be involved
(14:24):
in it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it is like, there's no kind
of two ways about it really.
And all of those things that you mentioned,
I'm really lucky that I work as you
mentioned that in the UK is largest dog
welfare organization.
And we're really lucky with the facilities that
we've got, but there's still things that you're
constantly wanting or needing or thinking about that
(14:45):
you don't have access to.
And time is one of the big ones,
you know, it seems like however many staff
you've got in on a day, you could
still do with another 10, or you could
still find jobs that don't get completed by
the end of it.
Um, and like you said, a lot of
that is the drive for doing the best
for these animals because they are from challenging
backgrounds or there's difficult things happening at the
(15:07):
time.
So there is that element of it.
And I think it just kind of feeds
into a bit of camaraderie that you do
get like there's definitely down times, but I
think you've got to become really good at
focusing in on the good, because otherwise you
would just get a bit kind of bogged
down in, in all the negativity.
(15:29):
Um, and I think that is something that
we're getting better about talking about as well,
because I think before it was just kind
of was, and then you carried on or
you left the industry, which I think is
a big shame.
And then particularly around COVID and all of
the stuff that happened, I think a lot
of people kind of reconsidered their choices and
left the industry, which was a hard hit
(15:50):
because it means now, you know, a lot
of the new people coming in and learning
from people who maybe don't have as much
experience and that adds to the challenge even
more.
Um, but I think, yeah, we are starting
to get a bit better about having conversations
about the difficulties and, and mental health and,
um, impact empathic strain and all of those
(16:11):
challenges that come with working in an environment
like this.
Um, and I think the other thing that
we've got to remember is it's so varied,
like the resources available to rescues are so
varied depending on which country you're in, which
area of that country, how well presented the
organization is to the public.
Um, and I know a lot of rescues
(16:33):
that have amazing volunteer and even within the
same organization, I work with multiple centers and
I know some volunteers that come in and
work with, you know, the tricky dogs or
dogs that even some of the staff aren't
keen to get out.
Um, and we've got these amazing volunteers and
then other places where, you know, they might
have a couple of volunteers who come in
every other week, but they don't have a
(16:54):
kind of consistent stream.
So it's an interesting industry because there's so
many kind of changes, changes to the challenges,
depending on the situation.
Yeah.
I was going to ask you how you
personally, um, maintain.
I, I, I, I feel it could like
be disorientating in terms of like working in
(17:17):
shelters.
And, and this is something that we see
across our membership, regardless of if they work
in shelters or, or doing in-home consults
or working in the zoo industry or something,
you know, you, you, you learn about behavior,
you get all enthused, enthusiastic, you, you learn
about different ways of training, you decide on
your chosen tools and you're like, right, I'm
(17:42):
going to go out there and I'm going
to change the world, you know, and then,
and then you hit that reality, you hit
the, the resources and the team works.
And, and also you said people were reconsidering
their choices in COVID.
Um, if it's anything like the zoo industry,
Tom, I don't think you're going to like,
um, build large levels of wealth personally working,
(18:07):
working in these industries.
So you've got all of that.
Um, and then, and then you have those
realities that, that, uh, coming into contact with
the drive and passion and enthusiasm that the
members of our show have, that's where I
was suggesting that disorientation comes from.
And you said, you know, you've got to
remain positive.
(18:28):
Is that, is that something that you have
developed and intentionally built in yourself or is
it just part of your natural character?
Would you say?
I think that's a really interesting question because
I probably would have answered it quite differently
a few years ago.
So I think I've always been quite good
at sort of compartmentalizing things and looking at
(18:49):
the bigger picture, which is what I try
and do with everything, you know, whether it's
supporting staff or looking at individual dogs for
decisions is just keeping that bigger picture in
mind of, you know, how can we help
as many dogs as possible, um, or as
many animals as possible.
But I would say that generally, like, like
I said earlier, I've always enjoyed my job.
(19:11):
I've never really, you obviously have up days
and bad days, but overall, I've always been
really positive towards the industry and the work
that we do.
And then I was speaking to a colleague,
um, I think it was about two years
ago now.
And we talked about this in October and,
you know, I was speaking to a colleague
and I was a bit like, oh, I
actually think like I've, I've been out like,
(19:34):
and I hadn't really realized.
And when I started to look back at
a couple of months before that point, you
know, I was just driving to my centers.
So my role involves a lot of driving
across the country.
And I was basically getting in the van
in the morning, driving there, seeing some dogs
and giving advice, but not really processing anything,
getting back in the van and driving back.
(19:54):
And that was kind of the end of
it.
Like almost, I think other people kind of
describe it as like being numb or not
really, I felt like I was on autopilot,
um, which is something that I hadn't really
experienced before.
And it wasn't even like a particularly stressful
time or, you know, I couldn't narrow down
like a trigger for this event to happen,
(20:16):
but I just kind of really gradually noticed
that I'd, I'd lost that passion.
And I was really lucky.
I spoke to a couple of kind of
colleagues and, um, I think even just recognizing
that in myself was a really good step
for me to be able to get back
to, um, the more positive side of things.
But it was a really interesting experience because
yeah, in 10 years, it hadn't been a
(20:38):
position that I was in before, even though
I'd probably been in more challenging situations with
some of the previous roles that I've done.
Um, so I do think I'm lucky in
the way that I kind of perceive things
and look at things.
I'm quite good at compartmentalizing and looking at
that larger picture, like I've already mentioned, but
did go through this kind of low patch
(20:59):
that really makes you think about the strain
that the industry is under.
And particularly in my role where I'm supporting
others, I now like kind of approach things
in a bit of a different way to
support wellbeing, um, than I probably would have
previously.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry.
You went through that and thanks for sharing
(21:20):
with us and said you talked to a
bunch of colleagues.
So what, like, how did you then navigate
your way through processing that?
Cause I imagine that was a pretty stark
realization.
It kind of like slaps you around the
head and wakes you up a little bit
in a way, but like, it's kind of
scary at the same time.
Yeah, definitely.
(21:40):
And obviously what, as you just said, it
kind of did snap me out of it
just by itself.
Like just recognizing that this is kind of
the place I was in and I'm lucky
that, um, kind of, I work in a
team of people.
So obviously I support the Southwest of the
UK and then I have counterpart, counterparts that
do, um, the other areas.
So I have people in the same role
(22:01):
that I do.
Um, and it was speaking to one of
them and actually just seeing how passionate they
were.
Then I was a bit like, Oh, where's,
where's mine gone?
Like, this is what I was like two
weeks, like two months ago or whatever.
Um, so that actually made quite a big
step in me getting back to, you know,
the person that I normally think I am.
(22:22):
Um, and then it was just maybe just
talking through some of the things I was
struggling with, which I just think I, I,
so I've been in the role that I
do now, I've been doing for six years.
So I think I've just kind of reached
a natural low of even though it's different
every day, it almost just became a bit
monotonous.
And, um, I think, like I mentioned, we
all, I know everybody kind of struggled through
(22:44):
COVID and definitely in the shelter and rescue
side of things, we're seeing the downside of
that even now and continuing, continually building on
that.
So I think it was just that combination
of kind of three, four, five, very stressful
years then leading to this point.
Um, and then, yeah, the ability to speak
to people about it.
Um, I started to make sure to find
(23:08):
a bit more time for myself.
Um, I started a podcast as well, and
I think actually that helped, like it was
still about behavior in shelter, but it kind
of focused me a little bit more to
do something a bit different and kind of
bring the passion back really.
Cause I have the really great opportunity, um,
as you do Ryan to speak to some
great professionals in the field and hear their
(23:30):
story and their experience, which just every time
I do that, just reinvigorates me to go
back and share that knowledge.
So, um, I'm quite lucky in that regard,
but yeah, I think a big thing as
well was just making sure I actually took
time for myself and had other stuff on
the go as well.
Tom, I remember in 2000, then I don't
(23:53):
know, let's say 17.
And I reached out to Dr. Susan Friedman
and I said, yo, do you want to
be on my podcast?
I didn't say yo.
She said yo back, I'm sure.
But, uh, I'm bringing it up, Tom, bringing
it up because I remember when Susan was
on your show and I remember you, like
(24:15):
she had some Instagram reels or whatever social
media you were sharing and I could see
the passion in you then.
So I think that came to mind as
you were talking then.
Share about like what, I mean, you've already
said it, so you're like, right, I just
said that.
But like, how did you feel like kind
of getting those opportunities to connect with people
(24:40):
that, now up until stages in my life,
in your life, I imagine, I'm not speaking
on your behalf, Tom, so you can correct
me, but that there are people that were
kind of at a distance maybe, or people
that you learned from that were kind of
like, you felt you knew, but you didn't
really know.
What was that experience like for you?
(25:02):
Yeah, definitely.
So I think it was a combination of
things for me.
I think the first one is, like I
said, I'm really lucky to have worked in
an organization for 10 years in September.
And it's a great organization to be a
part of.
But I think what happens is you become
(25:22):
used to the norms in that organization and
then some of the frustrations start coming out
because of, you know, how things were before
or other experiences you've had.
And I kind of kind of got lost
in that world a bit.
So then when I started to open up
and speak to other people from different shelters,
you see some of the challenges they're facing
and it can bring things back into perspective
(25:43):
or it kind of changes your view of
these micro frustrations that almost build up on
top of each other.
And then the flip side of that, the
big part was, like you said, is these
people that you kind of hold on a
pedestal, and particularly Susan Friedman, like she's way
up there for me.
But, you know, these people that you've learned
(26:04):
from, like you said, or you hold on
a pedestal, you really respect.
And for me, it was them just like,
just how willing they were to give up
their time and come to talk about dogs
in these difficult shelter environments and how we
could support them.
Because I've never done a podcast before or
anything.
And I kind of started off with like
people that I knew a bit and kind
of invited people that I'd spoken to.
(26:25):
And then I was like, well, if you
don't ask, you don't get.
And started reaching out to much bigger names
and just thinking like, oh, I won't even
get a reply.
And I remember emailing like Jean Donaldson and
she was like, oh my God, like, yeah,
I love talking about resource guarding and shelter.
I'd be really chuffed to come and talk
to you and Susan and other people.
And just seeing like how willing they are
(26:47):
to give up their time to come and
share their knowledge.
I was a bit like, oh yeah, this
is super cool.
And like, this is how we can support
staff and dogs.
Because I think it's such, it can be
very lonely.
And particularly if you work at a shelter
that has a small behavior team or doesn't
have a behavior team.
Like I speak to a lot of people
who just feel a bit lost with the
(27:07):
dogs in their care.
And I think being able to give them
a bit of guidance or support conversations and
facilitate conversations that can help them.
It's just, it's pretty cool.
Like not going to lie, makes you feel
good.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I've been doing this for
nine years now, so it's obviously reinforces in
(27:28):
there.
And I think you've named, you've named some
of them.
So you said there what happens, I'm going
to butcher what you said here, but I'm
going to paraphrase it.
You know, what happens in your organizations, you
become used to those norms.
And that, like, I feel like a word
to sum that up would be culture.
(27:48):
Culture being defined as a shared set of
behaviors and ideas and values.
Yeah.
Yes.
I would agree.
Like there's definitely can be a lot of
frustration around culture in a number of the
organizations that I know and work with.
But I think it's also interesting when you've
done a couple of different roles and you
(28:09):
may be working with people who are now
in a role that you previously did.
And you remember how it was when you
did it and you don't necessarily think of
how the world has changed around you.
So the thing that we talk about, particularly
in the UK at the minute, is like
this perfect storm.
So obviously during COVID, lots of people got
(28:30):
dogs.
Like we couldn't get dogs into rescue quick
enough to get them out again.
Like the supply versus demand was different to
what we've ever seen before.
And now obviously people are going back to
work.
These younger dogs are hitting adolescence and they
had less experiences because of lockdowns and all
of that fun stuff.
And then in the UK and I know
(28:52):
other places as well, obviously, we've got this
cost of living crisis now where, you know,
people are struggling to afford vet care and
can't get a behavior help because of that
monetary barrier.
And these dogs are now coming into kennels
and you sometimes forget that all of that
has happened.
So you kind of look back to what
(29:13):
we were able to achieve a few years
ago.
And that has moved.
Like I think that is now a reality
that most rescues are putting their hands up
and saying, like, we can't do what we
used to do at the minute.
Like we're obviously all aiming to get back
there, but it is like the landscape is
so different to what it was when I
started 10 years ago.
(29:35):
But it's sometimes kind of, well, it's just
difficult to live in this reality because you
know what we could achieve before.
And now there's just a lot more barriers
in place to achieve that.
And obviously we're trying to work around those.
But I think that can just be tricky
when you've been doing it for a long
time and you've kind of lived through those
changes, I guess.
(29:55):
Yeah, it makes me think about something to
get one through some of the things we've
talked about today and to have a career
that spans a decade or more requires flexibility.
So I was talking to someone about, as
(30:17):
you mentioned, the cost of living crisis.
And someone made a statement like, oh, I'm
just going to wait until things get a
bit better.
But it's like, hang on, we were in
2019 and there was COVID.
And then there was a global recession and
cost of living crisis.
And now there's all this geopolitical stuff going
(30:38):
on.
When are things going to get better?
You need to roll the punches.
And that's been something that I've only really
learned recently, I think.
But it sounds like that's also something that's
going to be present in the shelter world.
And how does flexibility and the need for
flexibility play into your role and the role
(30:58):
of people that work in the shelter environment?
Yeah, I mean, it's just massively important because
you just never know what's coming the next
day.
And I think that's always been true.
You just don't know if somebody is going
to ring you up and say, so there's
150 dogs in this hoarder situation that you
need to find space for.
(31:20):
And you're like, oh, cool.
So we've got 30 kennels.
And then you're having to think of, right,
is there other organizations they can go to?
Do we have foster homes set up?
If they're coming from a hoarder situation, we
generally know nothing about these dogs other than
they've probably not living in the best environment.
(31:40):
And then you kind of have that banding
together to achieve really, some of the things
that are completely unhinged, like when you think
of it, like trying to find space for
150 dogs in the space of two days
is just mental.
But like you said, it's rolling with those
punches.
Some days you could just have a dog
who comes into the kennels who just doesn't
(32:02):
want anyone near them.
And they might be showing aggressive behaviors to
demonstrate that point, but you know, they've got
to come out of the kennel.
Like it's not hygienic.
It's not safe for them to stay in
that for a couple of days on end
without coming out.
So, you could go from almost 100 miles
an hour dealing with the first example to
then having to just go and sit outside
(32:23):
a kennel or come up with a plan
with some staff about how you then support
this one individual who's really struggling.
And then like you mentioned earlier, you then
could go from that to speaking to somebody
who's having to hand over their dog for
no reason, no wrongdoing of their own, who's,
you know, absolutely gutted and you're helping them
to try and understand that actually this is
(32:45):
the right decision.
And I know like maybe some listeners will
be surprised by that, but we've also got
to live in the flexible world that sometimes,
you know, we can't keep the animals in
our life or something happens that we need
extra support.
And it is our shelter and rescue to
also be there and support those owners because
we never know where they're going to be
(33:06):
in the future.
And we obviously want the best for the
animal in that moment.
But also, like I said, we don't know
what that person's journey is going to be
after.
We want to support them the best that
we can.
So, even day to day, it's like constant
changing environment, which is then, you know, often
catapulted out.
And, you know, I know we've talked about
(33:27):
some negative things as we've gone through this,
but a big memory of mine as well
is in the UK, we had the whole
Excel bully thing.
So, the government announced that they were adding
the American Bully Excel to the banned list
of dogs in the UK, which was a
massive, it kind of been talked about for
a while, but nobody actually thought it would
happen.
(33:47):
And I remember that was like, I just
remember hearing on the news and we would,
me and my partner were driving to meet
our friends.
And he said like, are you okay?
Like I think we'd stopped at the services
and I'd just seen it on my phone
that they'd announced the ban.
And I started like crying while we were
driving.
And I'm not, I'm an emotional guy, but
I don't cry very often at work and
(34:07):
stuff.
I've been around a long time.
And I just remember, yeah, just being completely
devastated by this decision that the government had
made and the effect that that was going
to have.
So it's the long-winded way around.
So yes, it varies massively day to day,
and you've got to be able to roll
with the punches because otherwise you just get
swum down completely and it just wouldn't work
(34:30):
as a sector.
We said earlier that one of the, and
we brushed over it a little bit, so
let's unpack it a bit, or not, if
you don't think that there is much more
to be said there, but I just think
it's super important that you said you've spent
a little bit more time on yourself when
you hit that numbness and awareness of the
(34:53):
lack of passion or the loss of passion
that you experienced.
So are you able to get home and
leave that stuff at work?
And how important has doing some non, and
I'm assuming that you're doing this, you can
again tell me if I'm wrong, doing some
(35:14):
non-dog stuff or some non-shouter stuff,
like how important has that been?
Yeah, definitely.
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because I don't think you can leave it.
I don't think it's the type of job,
and I think this is true of any
of the listeners, like any care-based role
where we're supporting people and animals.
I don't know many people that got into
(35:35):
animal training because they don't like animals.
It just doesn't really mash together, does it?
So we kind of just end up in
these situations where I don't think you can
leave it at the door, and my partner
works in a similar field with humans and
is exactly the same.
So I think what we've got to do
is find activities that allow us to take
(35:57):
a breath and not feel like we're leaving
things, but have the opportunity.
So I'm really lucky.
I'm a true water baby.
I surf, I kayak, I scuba dive, I
stand up paddleboard.
We've literally just moved.
We moved in January.
So I live in North Devon in the
UK, which is on the coastline anyway, but
we've now moved so that we can see
the beach from our house, which is super
(36:19):
cool.
So earlier today, I've been in the water,
and it just, for me, is a way
to just take my mind off things, particularly
when I'm scuba diving.
You can't really think about a lot of
stuff going on because there's awesome stuff to
see, and you're under water where we're not
designed to be.
So it's quite a good way to switch
(36:39):
off.
But I think the difficulty that we have
in the animal care industry is that even
switching off can make us feel bad.
We feel like we're possibly letting people down
or dogs down, and I know that's particularly
true where we're short staffed, or we are
worried about that one dog that maybe only
(36:59):
we could get out of the kennel, and
now it's the weekend and we've got to
leave them there.
And a conversation that I regularly have with
staff now is like, what's worse?
And it is quite extreme, but what's worse?
Us actually turning our phones off and walking
away for an evening and doing something with
our family or going to the cinema or
(37:21):
doing something to probably switch off, and then
come back refreshed and ready and raring to
go the next day, or powering through or
perceiving that we're powering through and then having
to take longer periods of time off to
recover or manage our own well-being.
And I think often we kind of, like
I said, we punish ourself or we feel
(37:42):
bad or we feel like we're letting people
down if we take that time for ourselves,
but it's just not feasible to do it
any other way, like we see that again
and again.
And it's quite a new term to me,
but I mentioned earlier this kind of empathic
strain is a slightly different way of thinking
about compassion fatigue, and it's a term that
(38:02):
I much prefer, because I think for me
compassion fatigue feels very final, or if you
burn out you're at the end, or if
you're fatigued by a compassion.
I almost struggle to see a way back
from that, like I know people can, but
for me it feels very finite, whereas when
we think of empathic strain, we know a
(38:25):
strain can, we can stretch things out or
we can bring them back in, and I
feel like it's a lot more flexible and
makes us maybe consider that longer-term effect
of things and recognising that actually taking that
tiny bit of time for ourself can really
help support us, support the people we work
with, because if we're grouchy and horrible to
(38:47):
be around, that doesn't support anybody either, and
obviously support the animals in our care.
But yeah, the phrase that I quite often
say is like, we're not working with tins
of beans, like I think if you work
at Tesco's and you stock your shelf, it's
quite easy to then come home from, but
I think yeah, like I said at the
start, I don't think we can leave it
(39:07):
at the door, but what we've got to
do is like, hold space for it, but
keep space for ourself as well, so that
we can recover and be the best that
we can be.
Such a British example to give a tin
of beans.
I remember my British friend came hitchhiking over
here and she got a lift and the
(39:28):
people that gave her a lift were like,
do you want to come stay at our
house?
And she got there and they're like, okay,
we're going to make some beans and potatoes
for dinner.
She's like, no, I try to get away
from home.
Anyway, we digress.
Thank you for sharing all of that.
I also just wanted to draw on something,
and I hope it's valuable for you to
listen to, but working in these team environments
(39:49):
and thinking about culture and some of the
things we've talked about today and what you
bring as an individual, I recently did this
online strength finder exercise, Tom.
I had to pay for it.
It was recommended to me by someone I'm
doing some mentoring with, and you answer all
(40:11):
of these questions and it shows you your
strength.
I'm curious if we share a strength, because
my number one strength was called futuristic, and
it means that I'm living in the future,
but I have clarity around the future and
I can see it and articulate it, and
therefore I can put plans in place to
(40:33):
get there.
That's a strength of mine based on this
tool, but it's not perfect.
It is a tool, but it was really
interesting to reflect upon.
But that can, for those who don't see
the world that way, be really frustrating and
confusing, because you're talking about things that they
(40:54):
can't imagine, that they don't want to think
about the future, they want to think about
now.
I explained that to my wife.
She's like, oh my God, yes.
But you talk about seeing the future as
well, and that's been something that's helped you.
Do you think that's important in terms of
(41:15):
working in shelters and also for the listener
who might not be that way wired?
Is there value in just pondering on this
idea of being there with 150 dogs and
needing to find places for them?
But when you get faced with, well firstly,
(41:36):
is that a real-life problem that you
were faced with?
And then secondly, does your mind see the
future in that situation?
So yeah, it is a real problem that
I've had at least.
Well, not me personally, but the teams I've
worked with, I've had four times recently, as
in the last maybe, I don't know, four
(41:56):
months.
150 would be a big number, but that
definitely has happened.
And then yeah, I think you have to
have a balance of living in the moment
and understand, but also recognising potential for opportunities
or even just thinking about where trends are
going.
And I think that is something that we've
(42:17):
been having to think about more as an
industry.
And again, the dreaded C word, but after
COVID, I think it was really weird to
be like, oh, the world can literally just
change tomorrow.
And we definitely talk a lot more about
future-proofing and planning and thinking about what
(42:38):
we can do.
And a lot of rescues now have also
realised, which is like a slight tangent to
your question, but realised that actually like brick
and mortar is probably not the way to
go.
And a lot more energy now is being,
so what I mean by that is actual
kennel spaces.
So having 50 kennels or whatever, and a
(42:59):
lot more focus is being put on trying
to keep animals and owners together, which I
think is super important, but then also having
different structures that can help more animals in
a better way.
So one thing that we talk about with
that is like a homestay programme or like
a home direct.
So somebody who's aware that their animal will
(43:21):
need to be rehomed in the near future,
whether that's illness or they're moving or whatever,
and they're able to then advertise their animal
for adoption through a rescue and with rescue
support, but they stay in the home until
a home's found.
And obviously that's a lot less stressful for
the animal.
It reduces the pressure on rescue spaces for
dogs that don't have that option.
(43:43):
And then similar with foster homes, we can
kind of build those networks.
So I think there is an element of
that future proofing and future thinking because we're
just very aware now like how quickly situations
can change.
And I guess it comes back to that
adaptability conversation that we've had.
So yeah, it's an interesting one because I
(44:06):
think you have to be in the moment
because of the type of world that we're
working in, but more and more now we
see a demand for thinking about the future.
It sounds like it's a role that requires
a lot of the things we've talked about.
I was going to say adaptability, and I
was like, we've just talked a lot about
that.
Because we're nearing, I think, a length that
(44:26):
probably is going to be the maximum of
people's car drives or dishwashing experiences as they
listen to this podcast.
So let's end and talk about where I'm
excited to let you know that I'm going
to invite Tom back.
We're going to be talking about more about
some of these things we've talked about on
this episode in a more structured way.
But Tom, can you just share the listeners
(44:47):
what your current role is, what it entails
and then also about the work you do
because you've got your finger in lots of
different pies.
You're still a trustee on The Hope, was
it?
You're doing a lot of the Grisha Stewart
Academy, you've got your day job and then
(45:07):
you've got Simplifying Shouter Behavior, which is your
own project, which your podcast is linked to.
Just whatever is most valuable to you or
you think is going to be the most
valuable to the listeners.
Share a little bit about what takes up
your time in 2025.
Yeah, definitely.
Like you said, it's not really a short
list.
There's a line from, this is so like
(45:28):
culturally random, but there's a line from Legally
Blonde The Musical that's like, how have you
done all of this stuff?
And it's like, oh, I've not slept since
1992.
And I do feel like that sometimes.
But yeah, so my kind of big thing
at the minute is Simplifying Shouter Behavior, like
you said, which is a Facebook page and
(45:52):
Instagram and podcast aimed at giving tips and
tricks to people who work in shelter and
rescue.
So I mentioned it earlier on those teams
that have small or non-existent behavior departments,
trying to give them the best information possible
to support them in helping dogs.
(46:12):
So I think that's a big thing.
And like I said, that's kind of where
a lot of the passion came back.
I obviously still love my day job, but
it was doing something a bit different, brought
it back to me.
And yeah, I've got the podcast, which allows
me to speak to really great professionals in
training and behavior or in the shelter world.
And we talk about different topics and how
(46:32):
we can maybe adapt or apply things to
the shelter.
And then what I would say is because
it is a challenging environment, as we've talked
about already, it does give you some good
tips as well.
If you work with owners in the home
environment or dogs in other tricky situations, there's
some great tips that have come through the
(46:52):
podcast and stuff.
So that takes up a lot of time.
And then, like you said as well, I'm
on Grisha's team.
So I help out with her side of
things, which is super fun.
There's some great people in that organization that
I like doing things.
So we do case studies and we've just
just come off a members meet talking about
how we can support our aging dogs.
(47:14):
So that was really fun to listen to
everybody's shared experiences and come up with some
great ideas for supporting our pets.
Amazing.
And if somebody is listening to this podcast
and they wanted to reach out or use
some of your looking currently at your simplifying
(47:36):
shelterbehavior.com website, Tom, there's a drop down
menu.
It says services for shelters.
If they wanted some of your services, what
kind of help could they get from you?
Yeah.
So we generally split the service, we, me,
individually split the services into three things.
So we do individual animal support, which is
(47:59):
case studies or case reviews.
If you've got a tricky dog or cat
that you're struggling with, we sit down and
look at options and discussions.
So it's just a bit of guidance around
that.
And then we do team support, which is
staff training, staff development.
So I have a group sessions online.
If you're in the UK, obviously I can
travel.
(48:21):
We do group sessions focused on specific topics
or just development needs.
And then we do organizational support as well.
So looking at standard operating procedures, if you've
got particularly challenging things, you know, regular occurrences
that you want to look at and address,
I'm more than happy to talk through that
side of stuff as well.
So there's kind of those three pillars to
(48:42):
hopefully improving behavioral health for the animals in
our care.
Awesome.
Well, we will link to simplifying shelter behavior
and Tom's socials in the write up for
this episode.
But obviously you'll have smartphones now and you
don't need to actually go to podcast write
(49:02):
ups to find links.
So you can Google all of that yourself.
Tom Candy, your picture on Facebook is a
diving picture.
Am I correct?
It is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So therefore, you can identify Tom from one
of his passions on Facebook.
Well, Thomas has been, of course, so much
fun.
Thank you so much for coming and hanging
(49:24):
out with me on this first of our
two episodes where you guys are listeners on
Animal Training Academy.
I really appreciate your time and look forward
to doing part two with you for the
listeners.
We're going to do it directly after, even
though it's going to be two weeks later.
Thank you so much.
(49:44):
Brilliant.
Thank you for having me.
And thank you so much for listening as
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
(50:07):
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
(50:28):
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership where you will find a community of
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
(50:49):
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
We're here cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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