November 18, 2024 • 53 mins
In this second part of our two-part episode, we continue our conversation with Ulrika Andreasson, a trailblazer in the field of Positive Reinforcement animal training. With over 25 years of experience, Ulrika has trained a wide variety of species, including dogs, horses, and reindeer. In this episode, Ulrika dives deeper into her fascinating work, focusing on the lessons she’s learned from her unique journey of clicker training reindeer for film, tourism, and live performances.
Ulrika shares invaluable insights about cross-species training, explaining how her experience with reindeer has influenced her approach to training other animals, including dogs. She discusses the importance of understanding reinforcers, the need for environmental training, and the delicate art of splitting behaviors into manageable steps to achieve success. Along the way, Ulrika touches on the challenges of working in novel and unpredictable environments and how these experiences have shaped her as a trainer.
Whether you're a seasoned trainer or simply curious about the wonders of Positive Reinforcement, this episode is packed with actionable insights and inspiring stories.
What You’ll Discover in This Episode:
- Ulrika’s unique work with reindeer and how it has impacted her training methods across species.
- Real-life examples of training animals to perform in complex environments, including film sets and live shows.
- How to adapt your training techniques for novel challenges, from reindeer to dogs.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm super
excited to welcome back to the show one
Ulrika Andreasen.
If you haven't listened to the first part
(01:53):
of our conversation, you can find it in
the previous episode on whatever app you're listening
to this show on.
In that episode, we explored Ula's journey in
getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and
what led her to her current species.
She's working with multiple species, but one of
(02:14):
the species she's currently working with, reindeer.
It's definitely worth a listen.
However, if you haven't listened to it yet,
you are, of course, welcome to hang out
and start here with part two.
We also gain plenty of insights.
We're going to be talking about cross-species
insights today to help you grow your skills,
knowledge, and confidence in animal training.
(02:35):
Let's dive in.
Ula has been practicing reward-based training for
25 years and currently works full-time as
a teacher and trainer specializing in dogs, horses,
and as mentioned, reindeer.
She has demonstrated the power of clicker training
in some unique areas, including training the first
Labrador to become a Swedish ski drawing champion,
(02:57):
which we talked a lot about in episode
one, and winning two gold medals at the
Swedish National Sled Dog Championship.
Twelve years ago, she also began training reindeer
for film and events and has since participated
in several movies, performed twice at the Sweden
International Horse Show, and showcased her skills at
the opening ceremonies of the World Championship in
(03:20):
Biathlon Alpine Skiing.
Today, Ula trains hunting dogs not to hunt
reindeer using a redirection technique known as tattling.
She also offers courses in gundog retrieving, obedience,
and puppy training while continuing to train her
reindeer for tourist events, film, and live performances.
In her spare time, she practices academic riding
(03:40):
with her two horses.
Ula, thanks so much for coming back to
hang out with us again on the Animal
Training Academy podcast show.
Thank you, Ryan.
It's nice to be back.
I'm really excited today to talk about, as
mentioned, insights from training different species.
And I don't think there are going to
be many listeners of this show, if any,
(04:02):
I'm not sure, who have had the privilege
of training as extensively with reindeer as you
have.
I'm not sure how many of our listeners
have even trained a single reindeer, let alone
the extensive training you've done.
So I can't wait to dive in and
learn from your experience today and hear your
insights.
And I believe you put together a list
(04:22):
for us of five things training a reindeer
has taught you about being a better trainer.
But before we talk about that, can you
just...
I mean, everyone knows what a reindeer is,
right?
Because it's Christmas.
But people's idea of what a reindeer is
because it's Christmas might not actually really represent
(04:44):
the living, breathing species.
Can you just share a little bit with
our listeners about reindeer and what reindeer are?
Absolutely.
So reindeer, they only come out at Christmas
when they pull Santa's sleigh.
(05:04):
So it is right.
The rest of the time, they live in
Santa Land.
They fly without wings.
No.
Okay, actually, I had guests saying, oh, I
only think reindeer were cartoon.
So I understand not every country you realize
reindeer is a real living animal.
(05:25):
So let's dive into that.
Reindeer is one kind of deer where they
live together in big numbers.
Most of the time, it can be 20
or 200 reindeer in the herd.
In Sweden, there are no wild reindeers.
(05:46):
In other parts of the world, there is
wild reindeer as well.
In North America, for example.
And they also have a few in Norway.
But in Sweden, all reindeers are owned by
someone.
And it can be an animal trainer and
zookeeper like myself.
But all the reindeer roaming free in Sweden
are owned by the Sami people, our indigenous
(06:09):
people.
But they live up in the mountains in
summer time and down the forest winter time,
eating lichen.
It's the only animal in Sweden we have
that eat lichen.
And they are specialized in that.
So they are really resistant to cold and
really well adapted to live in the snowy
(06:33):
mountains of the north.
And they lose their antler every year and
new ones grow out.
They don't keep their same set of rack,
same rack of antler all life.
They drop them every year and new ones
grow out.
Do you have any questions?
Well, firstly, there's not a single reindeer in
(06:53):
New Zealand, I checked.
Secondly, is it both male and females that
grow antlers or just males?
Exactly.
It's the only deer where both male and
female have antlers.
And that's because they live in so big
numbers.
So after the rut season, the males drop
(07:14):
their antlers.
They fight about the females and then they
don't need antlers anymore.
So they drop them.
And even though the females can have half
the weight of a male, they get higher
in the ranking system within the group when
they have antlers.
So they keep them until May when their
calf is born.
And then they get to eat before the
(07:35):
males do all winter long because they need
the food better.
So they can eat because they've still got
antlers?
Yes.
And if you have antlers and they're small,
you can tell a bigger guy to move
away.
And you do.
Yes.
And do the antlers grow bigger every year?
Yeah, up to a certain point where they
(07:56):
start to decline when the animal gets old.
And it doesn't develop much from year five
to nine.
Then it gets a little bit bigger every
year, but not much.
And then when the animal gets old, it
declines a bit.
And do they eat more things than just
(08:18):
lichen?
What else do they eat?
Yeah, absolutely.
They are specialized to eat lichen.
But in summertime, they graze, they eat grass,
leaves, mushroom, all kinds of herbs.
In wintertime, they mostly eat lichen, but also
blueberry bushes and stuff like that.
But they have to dig through the snow
(08:38):
to find it on the ground.
And they're not from Sweden originally or they
are from Sweden originally?
Originally, they've been here for a really, really,
really long time.
But I can't tell you from which country
they came from first.
So who are the Somi people and why
(09:01):
do the Somi people own reindeer?
The Somi people are indigenous people that lived
here for a very, very long time.
And back in the days, they lived together
with the reindeer and they stayed in tents.
And when there was no more food for
the reindeers to eat on a certain area
where they were, they packed up their camp
(09:22):
and they moved to another place together with
the herd.
And today, they don't live in tents anymore.
They live in houses and they track their
reindeer herds by GPS and they gather them
with motor vehicles like helicopters and cross bikes
and quads.
(09:43):
Back in the days, they went on skis
with a dog and moved with the herd.
But yeah, in Sweden and the north, like
Norway, Finland, there's been Somi people.
I can't tell you how long, but a
long, long time.
Okay, cool.
So you grew up in this area where
there are reindeer and you would see reindeer,
(10:06):
but you knew that those reindeer were owned
by someone, they were owned by...
Yeah, I had a Somi boy in my
school, for example, where I went to school
when I was a child, there was also
Somi boys.
And I knew it was their reindeer.
And so one day you were just like,
there's a reindeer, I'm going to start clicker
(10:26):
training.
How did you come to be...
Because your business and your website and your
business name is based around reindeer.
So reindeer are, correct me if I'm wrong,
reindeer are a significant part of your training,
of your business, of your life.
(10:47):
Absolutely.
It was what made me unique as a
clicker trainer because I don't know anyone else
that trick train reindeer.
And yeah, definitely not here in Sweden.
And I wanted to, ever since I was
a child, I wanted to work with animal
training and I wanted to teach them funny
(11:09):
stuff for movies, for example.
That was my goal since I was seven
years old.
And I figured out there were no trick
trained reindeer in the world when I did
some Googling.
And I thought if I'm the only one
in the world having trick trained reindeer and
the only one in Sweden, it should be
(11:29):
possible to work at least part time with
training them and doing movies and commercials, for
example.
Since the reindeer have such a strong symbolic
value for the mountains, northern part of Sweden
and Christmas time.
So that's why I bought reindeer and didn't
(11:50):
start to train any other breed because I
live in the middle of the forest in
the northern part of Sweden.
I could train a dog to do kind
of anything and it would still be a
well enough trained dog closer to the big
cities like Stockholm.
I have 600 kilometers going there.
(12:11):
So it's quite a journey.
It takes a whole day to drive.
And it's also costly with gasoline and everything.
So they would never hire me to do
a job at a commercial with the dog.
So if I wanted to train with that,
I had to do something no one else
does.
That was kind of my idea.
(12:33):
So I'm getting multiple motivations here.
One started when you were seven years old
and you just thought, I want to train
reindeer for movies or to do tricks.
Train animals for movies.
Could be dogs as well.
And then there's this other motivation that is
(12:54):
unique to you in so much as where
you're living, both in the world with reindeer
present there and just your location and your
country that you had to be creative with
a business idea.
Yes.
And I also think it's really motivating for
(13:16):
me to train stuff that no one else
trained before.
So you don't know how it's done.
You can't read about it.
You have to figure it out yourself.
I really love that challenge.
And by training an animal no one else
trains clicker wise, you have that challenge every
day.
And sure, I learned a lot from this
(13:41):
journey.
Yes.
Both about reindeer myself and the clicker training,
of course.
And you said that there wasn't anyone at
the time that does trick training with reindeers.
Have people since then taken, followed your lead
and started trick training reindeers?
No, I don't know if anyone do it
(14:02):
today.
I went to Alaska to help a lady
train her reindeer a bit, but I don't
think she kept up with the trick training
after I left.
But I met Bob Bailey at a clinic
and learned that he trained reindeer many years
ago.
Of course he did.
(14:24):
He's done it all.
So I wasn't first, but he also quit.
You don't have a reindeer to hire if
you want to do a commercial.
You said you've learned a lot.
They've taught you a lot about training, about
them as a species, about yourself.
And you come up with a list of
(14:45):
five things training reindeer have taught you about
being a better trainer.
Can you start us off with number one?
Absolutely.
OK, let's see if I can stick to
just five.
But the first one is about reinforcement.
Reindeer taught me to consider carefully what to
use as a reinforcer.
(15:05):
And I think no matter what animal you're
training, you have to think about that.
And reindeer, they don't generally like being touched.
It's really few times that my animals ask
me to scratch them, for example.
They like to stand close together because that's
(15:25):
safe.
There's more eyes to look out for wolves
and bears and whatnot that want to eat
them.
But they don't interact like dogs or horses
would, scratching each other, licking each other.
And they don't themselves like being pet by
nature.
(15:46):
I taught all of them to be pets
because I have to make sure they're fine
and, you know, do husbandry training with them.
But they don't appreciate it as a reinforcer.
And I think a lot of us, when
training dogs and horses, for example, we think
that all of those animals like being touched
(16:08):
and that it is a reinforcer to being
scratched, for example.
And I see a lot of my horses
and trainings, people, most of the time they
click, they give a dog a treat and
then they try to also pet it on
the head or under the cheek.
And the dog back away and says like,
(16:29):
no, I don't want scratches right now.
But the humans fail to see it and
they do it again.
And I have to say like, yeah, I
see your dog backing off.
I don't think it appreciates being touched right
now in this setting.
And they're like, oh, well, I always used
to scratch him.
(16:50):
And of course, in other situations, they appreciate
it, but not in a training session where
also food is available.
So to think about like what is reinforcing
for my animal right now in this situation.
And can also be people telling me at
(17:10):
a class, oh, my dog isn't interested in
the treat I have.
OK, what do you have?
Yeah, I have meatballs and he doesn't want
it.
And I say, OK, give me the meatball
and I play with it a little bit
and let the dog chase it and like
steal it from me.
And it goes wild.
And OK, like that.
(17:31):
And they're like, oh, you can serve it
like that as well.
And I say, yeah, sure you can.
And to be really interested in noticing what
this animal you have in front of you
like, like at this specific moment and in
this situation, what you were planning on reinforcing
(17:56):
with, is it a reinforcer at this time
or is it not?
It's the animal that decides if it's a
reinforcer or not.
And I think quite often I see people
fail on this topic.
And so what is the reinforcers that you
use for your reindeer?
OK, so reindeer, they love to eat lichen
(18:19):
and lichen.
There are hundreds of types of lichen and
we have one growing on the ground called
the reindeer lichen.
It's easy to pick and quite often I
use that as a reinforcer.
But up in the trees, it also grows
lichen called beard lichen because it looks like
beard hanging there.
(18:40):
And quite a few of my reindeer consider
that an even better treat.
So whenever and it doesn't get OK, the
white lichen growing from the ground can easily
split up in small pieces that end up
on the ground.
So if I'm doing a movie job, for
example, it's not good if I if I
(19:01):
have the reindeer standing on the platform and
then treat end up on the ground in
small pieces because it will be distracting for
them.
So if I'm teaching something hard or doing
a job where it has to be like
really clean loops in the training, I climb
trees and pick this beard lichen and then
(19:22):
I have like one step higher of reinforcement
value for my reindeer.
And depending on which one, two of them
also love pelleted food.
They can use pellets as a reinforcer.
So it depends on which reindeer I'm training.
I have one reindeer and he love Icelandic
(19:45):
lichen and that's another type that you have
to find and pick.
But knowing what kind of lichen or pelleted
food have the highest value for this special
reindeer I'm training right now is going to
be crucial for doing good sessions.
But never scratches.
No.
Never scratches?
(20:06):
No.
How would you describe the average reindeer in
terms of its behaviour around novel stimuli that
one might label as a little bit scary?
Are they standoffish?
Is proximity a big reinforcer?
(20:29):
I want space from things or are they
quite inquisitive animals?
They are really curious and I think they
are less spooky than horses for example.
And of course I also quite early reinforce
them for interacting with different objects.
And they are curious to interact with and
(20:52):
play around with different things.
Absolutely.
Really curious.
So how many reindeer do you have?
Right now I have four reindeer but in
total I've had ten reindeer that I've trained.
And has there been an individual from that
(21:15):
ten that has been different?
Has kind of stood out as having some
novel reinforcer that the others didn't?
Like one that liked pets?
My first reindeer, Rudolf, he could ask me
to pet him behind the ear.
And some of them I have now can
do that too but it's quite rare.
(21:35):
But him and I, we spent so much
time together.
I don't even know how many hours.
But he was a real special reindeer that
came really close to my heart.
And I think that often happens when you
spend a lot of time together.
You get really close and you get to
(21:58):
understand each other on a different level than
if you only hang out now and then.
He could ask me to scratch him but
not as a reinforcer.
It was more like when we hang out
together on a walk or just chilling in
the enclosure or something.
(22:19):
Then he could say, yeah, can you scratch
me behind the ear?
But as a reinforcer I would never guess
on that because most of the time I
would guess wrong.
So I only did it when he asked
me to.
Lichen takes a decent amount of time to
(22:39):
grow, right?
You can't pick lichen and then go back
there next week and pick more lichen.
No, no.
It takes a year for it to grow
back, a year or two.
So you don't pick on the same spot.
But there are areas in Sweden where it's
totally white.
It's white as far as you can see.
(23:00):
So if you pick 10 bags there, you
can't even tell someone was there because it
grows a lot.
And from the trees it grows also a
lot.
So picking from the trees, you can only
climb so high and there will be plenty,
plenty of lichen further up the tree.
(23:21):
So wintertime, the reindeer that roam free, if
they are lucky, there's a storm where all
the branches break from the trees and fall
down on the snow with lichen on.
And then they can eat lichen on top
of the snow instead of having to dig
through the snow to get to the ground.
So lichen hanging from the trees is a
(23:42):
really good source of food for reindeer, also
roaming free.
Amazing, amazing.
What is number two of the five things
and potentially more than five things that reindeer
have taught you about being a better trainer?
OK, so what I did a lot with
my reindeer is training them to perform in
(24:04):
novel and strange environments.
Since I do movies, commercials and like opening
the world championship in biathlon, it's really complex
environments where the animals are performing.
And I want them to be confident and
happy at all times in new environments.
(24:26):
And then you have to do a lot
of environmental training in really small steps, obviously,
at first and do it more and more
complex as you go.
And I think both doing this environmental training
where you just take them to different environments,
having a Swedish fika, as we say, we
(24:47):
just sit down, chill and have snacks is
one part.
But then to to perform a behavior in
the new environments, I come back to that
the key is a really fluent behavior.
If the behavior is fluent enough and of
course, you had trained the animal to be
(25:10):
in different environments, then it's OK.
I wouldn't say easy, but in this context,
anyway, easy to to succeed.
If the if the behavior is fluent enough
and the environmental training have been good enough,
then you have a chance to put it
together.
But when you do like opening ceremonies for
(25:31):
competition, if you do a movie, you can
always do another take with a camera, right?
You can you can film it five times
over.
It's OK.
But if you open a competition that's directly
sent on TV as well, then you have
one chance and you have to like nail
it or it's a total failure.
(25:53):
And at that times, I always I find
it so interesting for me to see if
I can pull it off.
And and it's a lot of training.
I trained my reindeer for one and a
half year before opening this championships at the
(26:15):
opening ceremony.
He was supposed to walk up to the
man doing a speech and grab his speech
by the teeth with the teeth and throw
it away.
And it was up on a stage with
the choir.
It was dark.
There were big lights, cameras, 4000 people watching
(26:37):
in front of us.
And, you know, it was a really hard
environment that my village with 10 houses.
I mean, you can't you can't stage up
a scene like that to train on.
It's impossible.
So you have to do environmental training in
small step with all different kind of stimuli
to be able to then put it together
(27:00):
at the opening ceremony.
Right.
But figure out with reindeer anyway, if you
have like a school class standing three metres
from your reindeer doing applause, it's kind of
like having 3000 people on 15 metres doing
applause.
So you have to like do what you
(27:23):
can and teach the reindeer to just walk
up to a person and grab what is
holding.
No matter how the environment around this person
look like, because it wasn't supposed to be
on cue either.
I was just walking up, standing next to
this person.
So whenever I walked up to a person
stood to his left, the reindeer would walk
(27:44):
in front of me up to this person
and grab this piece of paper.
And it was so fun.
I was in the class with Eva Bertilsson
at that time.
We were doing a class with both horses,
dogs, and I brought the reindeer.
And Eva said after this after this course,
yeah, the horses had problems with reindeer and
(28:07):
dogs and the dogs had problems with horses
and reindeer.
But the reindeer didn't have any problems with
anyone.
And I think that's due to all this
environmental training we did.
It doesn't matter who or what is standing
around.
If I lined up with the person, he
(28:28):
was walking up, see if he could grab
something.
So what I learned is you need the
behavior fluent and you have to train it
in so many different setups for it to
be really resilient and what's the word in
English?
(28:49):
Like trustable?
No, that's not the word.
To make it work every time.
Reliable.
Reliable.
Thank you very much.
Yes.
And so did the behavior occur on the
day, in the moment, during the opening ceremony?
Yes, it worked out fine.
(29:10):
He did so well.
And, you know, at that time when they
just nail it, then it's worth all the
effort all the time.
One and a half years training, you're like,
yep, I did it.
Next challenge, please.
I don't think, I don't think you can
feel better than those days when you train
(29:31):
a lot and nailed it.
I love that feeling.
Did the audience find it hilarious?
They did.
Amazing.
What is number three?
Number three, splitting.
I think people think it's easy to use
lumping when training animals.
And I think a lot of dogs are
(29:54):
checking out due to lumping.
The reindeers taught me to be a splitter,
like for real a splitter.
If I'm teaching a dog to retrieve, OK,
this is not an exact number, but let's
just grab one.
I might split it up in 20 or
30 different little pieces.
(30:15):
And if I do it with the reindeer,
it's at least 100, you know, split it,
split it.
I think nowadays I split it just as
much with the dog because it goes faster.
But to keep a reindeer interested in training,
you have to make the task so easy
(30:36):
to make it worth for the reindeer to
keep interacting and figuring out stuff.
They don't have much interest of just hanging
out.
They could go search for reinforcers in their
big enclosure if they want to.
And I think it's important for me that
they always have the option to check out
(30:58):
and go look for reinforcers in their big
enclosure while training.
So that I always know if they are
comfortable and if it's interesting enough for them
to do the training and keep interacting with
me.
And the big thing is splitting it up
(31:20):
in so small pieces that they easily can
manage to get another reinforcer.
Sorry, go on.
I think that's important for any animal that
you train.
Split enough to make it worth the effort
for the animal.
(31:40):
What do you think?
Is there any behavior you can think of
that you were training with an individual reindeer
where you had to split it up even
more than you knew that you had to
split it up?
This reindeer that I opened the ceremony with,
I spent a year teaching him to grab
(32:00):
and pull something.
He was so, so careful and he wasn't
a really forward-going reindeer.
He was really thoughtful, but he was quite
shy and he wasn't bold forward-going.
He was a sensitive reindeer and for him
(32:23):
to grab something, it didn't come easy.
So it's kind of funny that he was
the reindeer I did it with.
But you know, I guess I liked the
challenge to build that up with him.
And yeah, we did splitting.
Sometimes with some reindeer, you don't have to
(32:43):
split.
Like my little white reindeer I have right
now, he offered me a rear standing on
his hind legs.
First time I accidentally put the target stick
a bit higher and I was like, what?
I can work for months with that, with
other reindeer, but he just offered it himself.
(33:05):
So sure, sometimes lumping is the way.
If they just throw the behavior at you,
click and reinforce, come on.
But there was one of those reindeer where
I had to split it up a lot.
Yeah, definitely.
I can imagine that, not to name your
(33:26):
five things for you, but one of them
would be patience.
Oh, yes.
If you're using the example of having to
split a behavior for a dog 20 or
30 times and a reindeer 100 times, how
did you find that decision making process in
terms of knowing that you've just got to
(33:48):
keep going with this training plan and the
shaping steps that you have in your mind
and maybe staying on whatever repetition you're on
enough?
How do you juggle that between going, oh,
maybe this isn't working and I need to
readjust my plan?
Of course, whenever I teach a reindeer, the
(34:14):
first years when I trained the reindeer, something
I never taught before, I wrote down the
training plan with every criteria.
And then I went out to train, checked
in a box what criteria did I reach
today?
And when I got stuck, like, OK, why
didn't I go from this criteria to the
next?
Then I came up with five or 10
(34:37):
new criterias in between, went out, did training.
Let's see what I can check off.
And what criterias didn't we meet today?
Can I come up with even more criterias
if I'm stuck?
And I like every day made the plan,
did the training, went back to the plan
(34:58):
and did another one.
And if I have a problem I can't
solve, I'm like just more motivated to solve
it.
I have to solve it to sleep at
night.
So I think this is what's so funny
for me.
If it goes too easy, I'm like, OK,
I need a better challenge.
Then it's not fun anymore.
(35:19):
So, yeah, for example, we did.
I had a reindeer, he loved to jump
fences.
I taught him to jump fences like an
agility dog.
Frost was his name.
And he had a lot of speed and
energy.
So I ran beside and guided him what
fences to jump.
And we jumped the course on Sweden International
(35:42):
Horse Show.
And he did great and it was fun.
And the person there hiring us, he said,
yeah, can't you come back next year and
do a burning course?
Jump a course that's burning.
And I said, yeah, OK, let's do that.
And I knew it's, of course, possible.
(36:06):
We just have to do it in small
steps.
And, like, the first criteria was eat your
dinner five meters away from a burning candle.
And then, you know, step it up piece
by piece by piece by piece until he,
like, jumped through fire.
And small enough steps to make him comfortable
all the way and never hesitate jumping, even
(36:28):
though there was fire.
Close by, under the fence, further, higher and
higher on the fence.
And, yeah, so on.
And I think it's all about splitting and
doing small enough criteria to help them succeed
every session.
And with teaching my moose hunting dog to
retrieve a dumbbell was also like splitting.
(36:51):
She also taught me about splitting because she
was like about to throw up when she
saw a dumbbell.
She had no interest in grabbing that.
They don't have that in them at all.
But in the end, she retrieved happily this
dumbbell and had the highest score on the
competition on grabbing dumbbells.
(37:13):
So, I mean, it's just reinforcement history and
splitting into small pieces.
That's like, I think if I have to
name one thing to be a good trainer,
it would be split, split, split, split.
That's, in my eyes, one of the best.
The best trainer is the one splitting it
(37:34):
down in smallest, smallest possible piece.
So it's easy for the animal to succeed.
Yeah.
Love it.
Number four.
Number four, let's see.
Okay.
What the reindeers taught me, number four.
I learned a lot from reindeers when teaching
(37:57):
them to interact with other people.
So most of our animals will interact with
other people at some point.
If you have dogs, it happens all the
time, right?
But no matter what animal, it's veterinarians and
whatnot.
And people are not perfect.
So even if my reindeer are comfortable hanging
(38:17):
out with me, they hang out with tourists.
When we did movies, we hang out with
the staff doing the production, and they meet
a lot of people.
And people are not perfect.
So training animals for interacting with not perfect
(38:37):
people, I think that's a really big part
of making animals comfortable through life.
If they know that sometimes people come running,
children come running, they slip and fall over
next to them.
Yeah, that's just how people are.
And teach them what to do.
(38:58):
And I train reindeers a lot.
So like stand still, looking forward.
Stand still, facing forward.
Because they also have a huge rack of
antler.
So if they turn around fast or if
they move fast, it's a big risk of
something getting stuck in those antlers, including myself.
(39:22):
So at all times, just stand still, facing
forward.
I think that's a good basic behavior.
And I teach them to offer that even
if people like fall on the ground behind
them, next to them, in front of them,
come running, running away, screaming, singing, clapping their
(39:43):
hands, you know, whatever.
Make them comfortable with doing this behavior, no
matter what people around them are doing.
Also to act in movies, like quite strange
thing can happen around an animal.
And when I do movies with the reindeer,
there's quite a lot little elves and Father
(40:06):
Christmas is staring, you know.
It's a lot of little special creatures on
those movies.
And I want the reindeer to be comfortable
around all of them.
So quite often I dress up like the
Grinch or something and do training sessions to
make them comfortable with everything and anything.
(40:31):
And also teach them to be handled by
other people.
I want them to be able to come
and duck into their head stall when another
person offers it, to be touched by other
people, to do their platform behaviors next to
actors and stuff like that.
(40:51):
And I think it's a good idea for
any animal to be trained to be in
situations like that, because sooner or later you
will end up in a situation where people
doesn't behave as they are used to and
they can be scared, they can be angry.
You don't know until it happens, right?
(41:13):
Wonderful.
And I got lots of questions, but as
per normal, we will run out of time
if I ask more questions.
So let's go on to number five, please.
Okay, number five is like a big one
for me.
And it's always listen to your animal.
(41:34):
You have to be observant of any signs
of them being uncomfortable, tense or even angry.
To not put them into difficult situations and
be quick to adjust the environment when it
happens, because it will happen sometimes, of course,
the world isn't perfect.
(41:54):
And I have a story that taught me
this, like the hard way.
It's also a bit funny looking back.
At the time, it wasn't funny at all.
My first two reindeer, they go into rut
every autumn, right?
So first year they are small and cute
and they play around.
(42:16):
The next year they play a bit harder
and practice a bit more fighting in the
rut season.
But it's still okay.
But when they're three years old, they are
like grown up and then it's not fun
anymore.
Then it's like for real.
And before I castrated my first reindeer males,
(42:37):
they went into rut third year and I
was just as usual bringing them from the
pen.
We were walking up to the car, I
was supposed to put them in the trailer
and go training with them.
And that had never been a problem.
I just put the head stall on each
of them, had a two meter leash to
(42:59):
lead them with.
I had one reindeer in my right hand,
one in my left hand and off we
went to the car.
Easy peasy.
But today, this day when I did it,
I could see when I walked out of
the enclosure that Rudolf, he was tense.
He was like walking quite stiff with a
(43:19):
little bit starry eyes.
And his friend, he was a bit smaller
than him, Frost.
He was a smaller reindeer.
He were lower in ranking and he just
walks as usual on my left side.
It wasn't a problem, but Rudolf was stiff.
And the thought crossed my mind like, okay,
should I leave one in the enclosure and
(43:41):
bring them one and one up to the
car?
But it was like a 300 meters walk.
And I thought I didn't have the time.
So I just said, Rudolf, come on, let's
walk forward.
A bit, you know, come on.
Don't be ridiculous kind of thought.
And then you always slip, right?
Don't be ridiculous.
Whenever you think that about an animal, you
(44:01):
lost your way.
And I did because we walked maybe 10
meters and then Rudolf had it.
He considered me at that time being like
his little wife because I'm a female and
he went into rut season.
And he thought the other male was too
(44:23):
close.
So it was fine when they were alone
in the enclosure and he held the distance.
But when a resource like myself entered, he
didn't want him as close.
So he attacked his reindeer friend.
And unfortunately, I was standing in between them.
So I ended up in his antler.
(44:45):
They have a really strong neck.
When they go into rut, it's like with
bulls.
You say they see red.
You say that he was like not.
It wasn't possible to contact him at all.
He was just attacking this reindeer.
And I didn't feel he even noticed me
hanging in his antler over his head.
(45:08):
And yeah, that went out quite well since
I'm alive.
But I had one tip of the antler
going into my bum.
So I had quite a bad wound.
When I stepped off the reindeer antler, I
(45:31):
felt like, oh crap, this was no good.
I put them in the trailer and I
went to my veterinarian because I'm quite scared
of the doctor.
And I don't want to be stitched with
the needle.
I think all that's for me like horrible.
So I went to my veterinarian and I
put my pants down and lay down over
(45:53):
her table and said, you have to fix
my bum and no stitches, please.
And no, she laughed.
She laughed and she laughed.
But she said, yeah, I have quite a
good glue.
I can glue it together.
So she cleaned it and glued it.
And she gave my two bulls like a
(46:14):
shot of hormone reducing thing like Depo or
something.
So they would chill out a bit with
this testosterone.
And yeah, and she was laughing.
But then she said like, OK, this was
quite close to the big, big artery.
You know, you have to be careful.
(46:34):
And I got my two bulls castrated.
And yeah, I learned about reindeer rut season,
like the hard way.
But I also learned a lot about reading
the small signs because there were signs and
I ignored them.
And I shouldn't have.
And if you ignore the signs of dogs,
(46:55):
maybe it doesn't get as serious.
But still, I think it's important to not
make your animal uncomfortable.
And it's also important to keep yourself and
people around you safe.
And the big part of that is reading
the small signs and make sure your animal
is confident and happy in the environment you
(47:19):
put them in.
Yeah, well, it's a powerful reminder that sounds
like it could have ended up much worse.
Yes, much worse.
Lucky that it didn't.
So thank you for sharing that.
It was also hilarious.
Yes, it is.
(47:41):
But scary and a great reminder, a great
lesson and insightful story as well.
So thank you for sharing that.
To go through the list again of the
five things reindeer have taught you.
Obviously, as you mentioned earlier, there's more than
five, but five that we've talked about today.
The importance of reinforcement and knowing your reinforcement
(48:05):
for your learner.
The importance of teaching them how to teach
and for your reindeer, teaching them to perform
in complex environments.
The most important one, one might say, to
be a splitter, not a lumper.
Yeah, be a splitter.
And make sure you get the right behaviour.
(48:28):
Teaching them how to interact with people and
to always listen to your animal.
Well, thank you so much for sharing this,
all of us today.
All of us.
Sadly, though, this does bring us to the
final question.
And it's what I love to ask all
our guests.
And I'm wondering from your perspective, what would
you like to see happen in the animal
(48:50):
training world over the next five to ten
years?
I would love to see more, a bigger
number of species being trained with positive reinforcement.
I mean, husbandry training with all kinds of
animals, please.
It's so easy to do it with positive
reinforcement.
(49:11):
I'd love to see that.
And a big part of what I do
is training bird hunting dogs to do this
kind of redirection training when we teach them
to not hunt reindeer.
But when they encounter reindeer, turn around and
contact with your handler.
(49:34):
And I also teach them a lot of
retrieving.
And back in the days, they were using
electric shocks to train this behaviour, not to
hunt reindeer.
It's not legal in Sweden today.
Thankful for that.
But many people, they don't even have an
(49:55):
idea that it would be possible to do
with positive reinforcement.
And the retrieve have also a history of
being trained really harsh with a lot of
punishment.
And I'm happy for every hunting dog coming
here with an open-minded trainer to teach
those things with positive reinforcement and click training
(50:18):
instead.
And I would love to see, of course,
all dogs, but especially the group hunting dogs.
I see a lot of hunting dogs and
I know they are trained really harsh.
And I would love to see all of
them being clicker trained in 10 years.
It's a big area of punishment still.
(50:40):
Well, I think every listener of this show
resonates with that, whether it's with hunting or
whatever area, industry, space, animals and dogs are
treated like that.
And I'm pumped to add reindeer to our
library today and to make this episode with
(51:02):
you, Ulis, to show what's possible with positive
reinforcement in the species that we haven't talked
about on Animal Training Academy before.
So thank you for the gift of allowing
us to do that.
Can you just, before we officially, officially wrap
up, just remind everyone listening where they can
go to find you online and get in
touch.
Yeah, on my website, it's easy to get
(51:25):
in touch with me and read more about
reindeer training and dog training.
And it is ulisrudolf.se. And you can
also find Ulis Rudolf on Facebook and Instagram.
Fantastic.
And we will, of course, link to all
of us in the show notes as well.
This has been so much fun for myself
(51:46):
and on behalf of everyone listening.
Thank you so much.
We really appreciate you taking the time out
of your morning to come and hang out
with us here at ATA.
Thank you, Ryan.
It was a pleasure to hang out with
you.
And thanks a lot for a great podcast.
And thank you so much for listening as
(52:07):
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(52:31):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
(52:53):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
(53:17):
We're here, cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
Welcome to the Animal Training Academy podcast show.
I'm your host, Ryan Carledge, and I'm passionate
about helping you master your animal training skills
using the most positive and least intrusive approaches.
Here at ATA, we understand that navigating the
vast challenges you encounter in training requires a
(00:27):
comprehensive base of knowledge and experience.
It's common to face obstacles and rough patches
on your journey that can leave you feeling
overwhelmed and stressed.
Therefore, since 2015, we have been on a
mission to empower animal training geeks worldwide.
We've aided thousands in developing their skills, expanding
(00:51):
their knowledge, boosting their confidence, and maximizing their
positive impact on all the animal and human
learners they work with.
We are excited to do the same for
you.
Simply visit www.atamember.com, join our vibrant
(01:12):
community, and geek out with us.
And of course, in the meantime, enjoy this
free podcast episode as we explore new ways
to help you supercharge your training skills, grow
your knowledge, and build your confidence so that
you can craft a life that positively impacts
(01:32):
every learner you encounter.
We will start today's episode where I'm super
excited to welcome back to the show one
Ulrika Andreasen.
If you haven't listened to the first part
(01:53):
of our conversation, you can find it in
the previous episode on whatever app you're listening
to this show on.
In that episode, we explored Ula's journey in
getting started with positive reinforcement animal training and
what led her to her current species.
She's working with multiple species, but one of
(02:14):
the species she's currently working with, reindeer.
It's definitely worth a listen.
However, if you haven't listened to it yet,
you are, of course, welcome to hang out
and start here with part two.
We also gain plenty of insights.
We're going to be talking about cross-species
insights today to help you grow your skills,
knowledge, and confidence in animal training.
(02:35):
Let's dive in.
Ula has been practicing reward-based training for
25 years and currently works full-time as
a teacher and trainer specializing in dogs, horses,
and as mentioned, reindeer.
She has demonstrated the power of clicker training
in some unique areas, including training the first
Labrador to become a Swedish ski drawing champion,
(02:57):
which we talked a lot about in episode
one, and winning two gold medals at the
Swedish National Sled Dog Championship.
Twelve years ago, she also began training reindeer
for film and events and has since participated
in several movies, performed twice at the Sweden
International Horse Show, and showcased her skills at
the opening ceremonies of the World Championship in
(03:20):
Biathlon Alpine Skiing.
Today, Ula trains hunting dogs not to hunt
reindeer using a redirection technique known as tattling.
She also offers courses in gundog retrieving, obedience,
and puppy training while continuing to train her
reindeer for tourist events, film, and live performances.
In her spare time, she practices academic riding
(03:40):
with her two horses.
Ula, thanks so much for coming back to
hang out with us again on the Animal
Training Academy podcast show.
Thank you, Ryan.
It's nice to be back.
I'm really excited today to talk about, as
mentioned, insights from training different species.
And I don't think there are going to
be many listeners of this show, if any,
(04:02):
I'm not sure, who have had the privilege
of training as extensively with reindeer as you
have.
I'm not sure how many of our listeners
have even trained a single reindeer, let alone
the extensive training you've done.
So I can't wait to dive in and
learn from your experience today and hear your
insights.
And I believe you put together a list
(04:22):
for us of five things training a reindeer
has taught you about being a better trainer.
But before we talk about that, can you
just...
I mean, everyone knows what a reindeer is,
right?
Because it's Christmas.
But people's idea of what a reindeer is
because it's Christmas might not actually really represent
(04:44):
the living, breathing species.
Can you just share a little bit with
our listeners about reindeer and what reindeer are?
Absolutely.
So reindeer, they only come out at Christmas
when they pull Santa's sleigh.
(05:04):
So it is right.
The rest of the time, they live in
Santa Land.
They fly without wings.
No.
Okay, actually, I had guests saying, oh, I
only think reindeer were cartoon.
So I understand not every country you realize
reindeer is a real living animal.
(05:25):
So let's dive into that.
Reindeer is one kind of deer where they
live together in big numbers.
Most of the time, it can be 20
or 200 reindeer in the herd.
In Sweden, there are no wild reindeers.
(05:46):
In other parts of the world, there is
wild reindeer as well.
In North America, for example.
And they also have a few in Norway.
But in Sweden, all reindeers are owned by
someone.
And it can be an animal trainer and
zookeeper like myself.
But all the reindeer roaming free in Sweden
are owned by the Sami people, our indigenous
(06:09):
people.
But they live up in the mountains in
summer time and down the forest winter time,
eating lichen.
It's the only animal in Sweden we have
that eat lichen.
And they are specialized in that.
So they are really resistant to cold and
really well adapted to live in the snowy
(06:33):
mountains of the north.
And they lose their antler every year and
new ones grow out.
They don't keep their same set of rack,
same rack of antler all life.
They drop them every year and new ones
grow out.
Do you have any questions?
Well, firstly, there's not a single reindeer in
(06:53):
New Zealand, I checked.
Secondly, is it both male and females that
grow antlers or just males?
Exactly.
It's the only deer where both male and
female have antlers.
And that's because they live in so big
numbers.
So after the rut season, the males drop
(07:14):
their antlers.
They fight about the females and then they
don't need antlers anymore.
So they drop them.
And even though the females can have half
the weight of a male, they get higher
in the ranking system within the group when
they have antlers.
So they keep them until May when their
calf is born.
And then they get to eat before the
(07:35):
males do all winter long because they need
the food better.
So they can eat because they've still got
antlers?
Yes.
And if you have antlers and they're small,
you can tell a bigger guy to move
away.
And you do.
Yes.
And do the antlers grow bigger every year?
Yeah, up to a certain point where they
(07:56):
start to decline when the animal gets old.
And it doesn't develop much from year five
to nine.
Then it gets a little bit bigger every
year, but not much.
And then when the animal gets old, it
declines a bit.
And do they eat more things than just
(08:18):
lichen?
What else do they eat?
Yeah, absolutely.
They are specialized to eat lichen.
But in summertime, they graze, they eat grass,
leaves, mushroom, all kinds of herbs.
In wintertime, they mostly eat lichen, but also
blueberry bushes and stuff like that.
But they have to dig through the snow
(08:38):
to find it on the ground.
And they're not from Sweden originally or they
are from Sweden originally?
Originally, they've been here for a really, really,
really long time.
But I can't tell you from which country
they came from first.
So who are the Somi people and why
(09:01):
do the Somi people own reindeer?
The Somi people are indigenous people that lived
here for a very, very long time.
And back in the days, they lived together
with the reindeer and they stayed in tents.
And when there was no more food for
the reindeers to eat on a certain area
where they were, they packed up their camp
(09:22):
and they moved to another place together with
the herd.
And today, they don't live in tents anymore.
They live in houses and they track their
reindeer herds by GPS and they gather them
with motor vehicles like helicopters and cross bikes
and quads.
(09:43):
Back in the days, they went on skis
with a dog and moved with the herd.
But yeah, in Sweden and the north, like
Norway, Finland, there's been Somi people.
I can't tell you how long, but a
long, long time.
Okay, cool.
So you grew up in this area where
there are reindeer and you would see reindeer,
(10:06):
but you knew that those reindeer were owned
by someone, they were owned by...
Yeah, I had a Somi boy in my
school, for example, where I went to school
when I was a child, there was also
Somi boys.
And I knew it was their reindeer.
And so one day you were just like,
there's a reindeer, I'm going to start clicker
(10:26):
training.
How did you come to be...
Because your business and your website and your
business name is based around reindeer.
So reindeer are, correct me if I'm wrong,
reindeer are a significant part of your training,
of your business, of your life.
(10:47):
Absolutely.
It was what made me unique as a
clicker trainer because I don't know anyone else
that trick train reindeer.
And yeah, definitely not here in Sweden.
And I wanted to, ever since I was
a child, I wanted to work with animal
training and I wanted to teach them funny
(11:09):
stuff for movies, for example.
That was my goal since I was seven
years old.
And I figured out there were no trick
trained reindeer in the world when I did
some Googling.
And I thought if I'm the only one
in the world having trick trained reindeer and
the only one in Sweden, it should be
(11:29):
possible to work at least part time with
training them and doing movies and commercials, for
example.
Since the reindeer have such a strong symbolic
value for the mountains, northern part of Sweden
and Christmas time.
So that's why I bought reindeer and didn't
(11:50):
start to train any other breed because I
live in the middle of the forest in
the northern part of Sweden.
I could train a dog to do kind
of anything and it would still be a
well enough trained dog closer to the big
cities like Stockholm.
I have 600 kilometers going there.
(12:11):
So it's quite a journey.
It takes a whole day to drive.
And it's also costly with gasoline and everything.
So they would never hire me to do
a job at a commercial with the dog.
So if I wanted to train with that,
I had to do something no one else
does.
That was kind of my idea.
(12:33):
So I'm getting multiple motivations here.
One started when you were seven years old
and you just thought, I want to train
reindeer for movies or to do tricks.
Train animals for movies.
Could be dogs as well.
And then there's this other motivation that is
(12:54):
unique to you in so much as where
you're living, both in the world with reindeer
present there and just your location and your
country that you had to be creative with
a business idea.
Yes.
And I also think it's really motivating for
(13:16):
me to train stuff that no one else
trained before.
So you don't know how it's done.
You can't read about it.
You have to figure it out yourself.
I really love that challenge.
And by training an animal no one else
trains clicker wise, you have that challenge every
day.
And sure, I learned a lot from this
(13:41):
journey.
Yes.
Both about reindeer myself and the clicker training,
of course.
And you said that there wasn't anyone at
the time that does trick training with reindeers.
Have people since then taken, followed your lead
and started trick training reindeers?
No, I don't know if anyone do it
(14:02):
today.
I went to Alaska to help a lady
train her reindeer a bit, but I don't
think she kept up with the trick training
after I left.
But I met Bob Bailey at a clinic
and learned that he trained reindeer many years
ago.
Of course he did.
(14:24):
He's done it all.
So I wasn't first, but he also quit.
You don't have a reindeer to hire if
you want to do a commercial.
You said you've learned a lot.
They've taught you a lot about training, about
them as a species, about yourself.
And you come up with a list of
(14:45):
five things training reindeer have taught you about
being a better trainer.
Can you start us off with number one?
Absolutely.
OK, let's see if I can stick to
just five.
But the first one is about reinforcement.
Reindeer taught me to consider carefully what to
use as a reinforcer.
(15:05):
And I think no matter what animal you're
training, you have to think about that.
And reindeer, they don't generally like being touched.
It's really few times that my animals ask
me to scratch them, for example.
They like to stand close together because that's
(15:25):
safe.
There's more eyes to look out for wolves
and bears and whatnot that want to eat
them.
But they don't interact like dogs or horses
would, scratching each other, licking each other.
And they don't themselves like being pet by
nature.
(15:46):
I taught all of them to be pets
because I have to make sure they're fine
and, you know, do husbandry training with them.
But they don't appreciate it as a reinforcer.
And I think a lot of us, when
training dogs and horses, for example, we think
that all of those animals like being touched
(16:08):
and that it is a reinforcer to being
scratched, for example.
And I see a lot of my horses
and trainings, people, most of the time they
click, they give a dog a treat and
then they try to also pet it on
the head or under the cheek.
And the dog back away and says like,
(16:29):
no, I don't want scratches right now.
But the humans fail to see it and
they do it again.
And I have to say like, yeah, I
see your dog backing off.
I don't think it appreciates being touched right
now in this setting.
And they're like, oh, well, I always used
to scratch him.
(16:50):
And of course, in other situations, they appreciate
it, but not in a training session where
also food is available.
So to think about like what is reinforcing
for my animal right now in this situation.
And can also be people telling me at
(17:10):
a class, oh, my dog isn't interested in
the treat I have.
OK, what do you have?
Yeah, I have meatballs and he doesn't want
it.
And I say, OK, give me the meatball
and I play with it a little bit
and let the dog chase it and like
steal it from me.
And it goes wild.
And OK, like that.
(17:31):
And they're like, oh, you can serve it
like that as well.
And I say, yeah, sure you can.
And to be really interested in noticing what
this animal you have in front of you
like, like at this specific moment and in
this situation, what you were planning on reinforcing
(17:56):
with, is it a reinforcer at this time
or is it not?
It's the animal that decides if it's a
reinforcer or not.
And I think quite often I see people
fail on this topic.
And so what is the reinforcers that you
use for your reindeer?
OK, so reindeer, they love to eat lichen
(18:19):
and lichen.
There are hundreds of types of lichen and
we have one growing on the ground called
the reindeer lichen.
It's easy to pick and quite often I
use that as a reinforcer.
But up in the trees, it also grows
lichen called beard lichen because it looks like
beard hanging there.
(18:40):
And quite a few of my reindeer consider
that an even better treat.
So whenever and it doesn't get OK, the
white lichen growing from the ground can easily
split up in small pieces that end up
on the ground.
So if I'm doing a movie job, for
example, it's not good if I if I
(19:01):
have the reindeer standing on the platform and
then treat end up on the ground in
small pieces because it will be distracting for
them.
So if I'm teaching something hard or doing
a job where it has to be like
really clean loops in the training, I climb
trees and pick this beard lichen and then
(19:22):
I have like one step higher of reinforcement
value for my reindeer.
And depending on which one, two of them
also love pelleted food.
They can use pellets as a reinforcer.
So it depends on which reindeer I'm training.
I have one reindeer and he love Icelandic
(19:45):
lichen and that's another type that you have
to find and pick.
But knowing what kind of lichen or pelleted
food have the highest value for this special
reindeer I'm training right now is going to
be crucial for doing good sessions.
But never scratches.
No.
Never scratches?
(20:06):
No.
How would you describe the average reindeer in
terms of its behaviour around novel stimuli that
one might label as a little bit scary?
Are they standoffish?
Is proximity a big reinforcer?
(20:29):
I want space from things or are they
quite inquisitive animals?
They are really curious and I think they
are less spooky than horses for example.
And of course I also quite early reinforce
them for interacting with different objects.
And they are curious to interact with and
(20:52):
play around with different things.
Absolutely.
Really curious.
So how many reindeer do you have?
Right now I have four reindeer but in
total I've had ten reindeer that I've trained.
And has there been an individual from that
(21:15):
ten that has been different?
Has kind of stood out as having some
novel reinforcer that the others didn't?
Like one that liked pets?
My first reindeer, Rudolf, he could ask me
to pet him behind the ear.
And some of them I have now can
do that too but it's quite rare.
(21:35):
But him and I, we spent so much
time together.
I don't even know how many hours.
But he was a real special reindeer that
came really close to my heart.
And I think that often happens when you
spend a lot of time together.
You get really close and you get to
(21:58):
understand each other on a different level than
if you only hang out now and then.
He could ask me to scratch him but
not as a reinforcer.
It was more like when we hang out
together on a walk or just chilling in
the enclosure or something.
(22:19):
Then he could say, yeah, can you scratch
me behind the ear?
But as a reinforcer I would never guess
on that because most of the time I
would guess wrong.
So I only did it when he asked
me to.
Lichen takes a decent amount of time to
(22:39):
grow, right?
You can't pick lichen and then go back
there next week and pick more lichen.
No, no.
It takes a year for it to grow
back, a year or two.
So you don't pick on the same spot.
But there are areas in Sweden where it's
totally white.
It's white as far as you can see.
(23:00):
So if you pick 10 bags there, you
can't even tell someone was there because it
grows a lot.
And from the trees it grows also a
lot.
So picking from the trees, you can only
climb so high and there will be plenty,
plenty of lichen further up the tree.
(23:21):
So wintertime, the reindeer that roam free, if
they are lucky, there's a storm where all
the branches break from the trees and fall
down on the snow with lichen on.
And then they can eat lichen on top
of the snow instead of having to dig
through the snow to get to the ground.
So lichen hanging from the trees is a
(23:42):
really good source of food for reindeer, also
roaming free.
Amazing, amazing.
What is number two of the five things
and potentially more than five things that reindeer
have taught you about being a better trainer?
OK, so what I did a lot with
my reindeer is training them to perform in
(24:04):
novel and strange environments.
Since I do movies, commercials and like opening
the world championship in biathlon, it's really complex
environments where the animals are performing.
And I want them to be confident and
happy at all times in new environments.
(24:26):
And then you have to do a lot
of environmental training in really small steps, obviously,
at first and do it more and more
complex as you go.
And I think both doing this environmental training
where you just take them to different environments,
having a Swedish fika, as we say, we
(24:47):
just sit down, chill and have snacks is
one part.
But then to to perform a behavior in
the new environments, I come back to that
the key is a really fluent behavior.
If the behavior is fluent enough and of
course, you had trained the animal to be
(25:10):
in different environments, then it's OK.
I wouldn't say easy, but in this context,
anyway, easy to to succeed.
If the if the behavior is fluent enough
and the environmental training have been good enough,
then you have a chance to put it
together.
But when you do like opening ceremonies for
(25:31):
competition, if you do a movie, you can
always do another take with a camera, right?
You can you can film it five times
over.
It's OK.
But if you open a competition that's directly
sent on TV as well, then you have
one chance and you have to like nail
it or it's a total failure.
(25:53):
And at that times, I always I find
it so interesting for me to see if
I can pull it off.
And and it's a lot of training.
I trained my reindeer for one and a
half year before opening this championships at the
(26:15):
opening ceremony.
He was supposed to walk up to the
man doing a speech and grab his speech
by the teeth with the teeth and throw
it away.
And it was up on a stage with
the choir.
It was dark.
There were big lights, cameras, 4000 people watching
(26:37):
in front of us.
And, you know, it was a really hard
environment that my village with 10 houses.
I mean, you can't you can't stage up
a scene like that to train on.
It's impossible.
So you have to do environmental training in
small step with all different kind of stimuli
to be able to then put it together
(27:00):
at the opening ceremony.
Right.
But figure out with reindeer anyway, if you
have like a school class standing three metres
from your reindeer doing applause, it's kind of
like having 3000 people on 15 metres doing
applause.
So you have to like do what you
(27:23):
can and teach the reindeer to just walk
up to a person and grab what is
holding.
No matter how the environment around this person
look like, because it wasn't supposed to be
on cue either.
I was just walking up, standing next to
this person.
So whenever I walked up to a person
stood to his left, the reindeer would walk
(27:44):
in front of me up to this person
and grab this piece of paper.
And it was so fun.
I was in the class with Eva Bertilsson
at that time.
We were doing a class with both horses,
dogs, and I brought the reindeer.
And Eva said after this after this course,
yeah, the horses had problems with reindeer and
(28:07):
dogs and the dogs had problems with horses
and reindeer.
But the reindeer didn't have any problems with
anyone.
And I think that's due to all this
environmental training we did.
It doesn't matter who or what is standing
around.
If I lined up with the person, he
(28:28):
was walking up, see if he could grab
something.
So what I learned is you need the
behavior fluent and you have to train it
in so many different setups for it to
be really resilient and what's the word in
English?
(28:49):
Like trustable?
No, that's not the word.
To make it work every time.
Reliable.
Reliable.
Thank you very much.
Yes.
And so did the behavior occur on the
day, in the moment, during the opening ceremony?
Yes, it worked out fine.
(29:10):
He did so well.
And, you know, at that time when they
just nail it, then it's worth all the
effort all the time.
One and a half years training, you're like,
yep, I did it.
Next challenge, please.
I don't think, I don't think you can
feel better than those days when you train
(29:31):
a lot and nailed it.
I love that feeling.
Did the audience find it hilarious?
They did.
Amazing.
What is number three?
Number three, splitting.
I think people think it's easy to use
lumping when training animals.
And I think a lot of dogs are
(29:54):
checking out due to lumping.
The reindeers taught me to be a splitter,
like for real a splitter.
If I'm teaching a dog to retrieve, OK,
this is not an exact number, but let's
just grab one.
I might split it up in 20 or
30 different little pieces.
(30:15):
And if I do it with the reindeer,
it's at least 100, you know, split it,
split it.
I think nowadays I split it just as
much with the dog because it goes faster.
But to keep a reindeer interested in training,
you have to make the task so easy
(30:36):
to make it worth for the reindeer to
keep interacting and figuring out stuff.
They don't have much interest of just hanging
out.
They could go search for reinforcers in their
big enclosure if they want to.
And I think it's important for me that
they always have the option to check out
(30:58):
and go look for reinforcers in their big
enclosure while training.
So that I always know if they are
comfortable and if it's interesting enough for them
to do the training and keep interacting with
me.
And the big thing is splitting it up
(31:20):
in so small pieces that they easily can
manage to get another reinforcer.
Sorry, go on.
I think that's important for any animal that
you train.
Split enough to make it worth the effort
for the animal.
(31:40):
What do you think?
Is there any behavior you can think of
that you were training with an individual reindeer
where you had to split it up even
more than you knew that you had to
split it up?
This reindeer that I opened the ceremony with,
I spent a year teaching him to grab
(32:00):
and pull something.
He was so, so careful and he wasn't
a really forward-going reindeer.
He was really thoughtful, but he was quite
shy and he wasn't bold forward-going.
He was a sensitive reindeer and for him
(32:23):
to grab something, it didn't come easy.
So it's kind of funny that he was
the reindeer I did it with.
But you know, I guess I liked the
challenge to build that up with him.
And yeah, we did splitting.
Sometimes with some reindeer, you don't have to
(32:43):
split.
Like my little white reindeer I have right
now, he offered me a rear standing on
his hind legs.
First time I accidentally put the target stick
a bit higher and I was like, what?
I can work for months with that, with
other reindeer, but he just offered it himself.
(33:05):
So sure, sometimes lumping is the way.
If they just throw the behavior at you,
click and reinforce, come on.
But there was one of those reindeer where
I had to split it up a lot.
Yeah, definitely.
I can imagine that, not to name your
(33:26):
five things for you, but one of them
would be patience.
Oh, yes.
If you're using the example of having to
split a behavior for a dog 20 or
30 times and a reindeer 100 times, how
did you find that decision making process in
terms of knowing that you've just got to
(33:48):
keep going with this training plan and the
shaping steps that you have in your mind
and maybe staying on whatever repetition you're on
enough?
How do you juggle that between going, oh,
maybe this isn't working and I need to
readjust my plan?
Of course, whenever I teach a reindeer, the
(34:14):
first years when I trained the reindeer, something
I never taught before, I wrote down the
training plan with every criteria.
And then I went out to train, checked
in a box what criteria did I reach
today?
And when I got stuck, like, OK, why
didn't I go from this criteria to the
next?
Then I came up with five or 10
(34:37):
new criterias in between, went out, did training.
Let's see what I can check off.
And what criterias didn't we meet today?
Can I come up with even more criterias
if I'm stuck?
And I like every day made the plan,
did the training, went back to the plan
(34:58):
and did another one.
And if I have a problem I can't
solve, I'm like just more motivated to solve
it.
I have to solve it to sleep at
night.
So I think this is what's so funny
for me.
If it goes too easy, I'm like, OK,
I need a better challenge.
Then it's not fun anymore.
(35:19):
So, yeah, for example, we did.
I had a reindeer, he loved to jump
fences.
I taught him to jump fences like an
agility dog.
Frost was his name.
And he had a lot of speed and
energy.
So I ran beside and guided him what
fences to jump.
And we jumped the course on Sweden International
(35:42):
Horse Show.
And he did great and it was fun.
And the person there hiring us, he said,
yeah, can't you come back next year and
do a burning course?
Jump a course that's burning.
And I said, yeah, OK, let's do that.
And I knew it's, of course, possible.
(36:06):
We just have to do it in small
steps.
And, like, the first criteria was eat your
dinner five meters away from a burning candle.
And then, you know, step it up piece
by piece by piece by piece until he,
like, jumped through fire.
And small enough steps to make him comfortable
all the way and never hesitate jumping, even
(36:28):
though there was fire.
Close by, under the fence, further, higher and
higher on the fence.
And, yeah, so on.
And I think it's all about splitting and
doing small enough criteria to help them succeed
every session.
And with teaching my moose hunting dog to
retrieve a dumbbell was also like splitting.
(36:51):
She also taught me about splitting because she
was like about to throw up when she
saw a dumbbell.
She had no interest in grabbing that.
They don't have that in them at all.
But in the end, she retrieved happily this
dumbbell and had the highest score on the
competition on grabbing dumbbells.
(37:13):
So, I mean, it's just reinforcement history and
splitting into small pieces.
That's like, I think if I have to
name one thing to be a good trainer,
it would be split, split, split, split.
That's, in my eyes, one of the best.
The best trainer is the one splitting it
(37:34):
down in smallest, smallest possible piece.
So it's easy for the animal to succeed.
Yeah.
Love it.
Number four.
Number four, let's see.
Okay.
What the reindeers taught me, number four.
I learned a lot from reindeers when teaching
(37:57):
them to interact with other people.
So most of our animals will interact with
other people at some point.
If you have dogs, it happens all the
time, right?
But no matter what animal, it's veterinarians and
whatnot.
And people are not perfect.
So even if my reindeer are comfortable hanging
(38:17):
out with me, they hang out with tourists.
When we did movies, we hang out with
the staff doing the production, and they meet
a lot of people.
And people are not perfect.
So training animals for interacting with not perfect
(38:37):
people, I think that's a really big part
of making animals comfortable through life.
If they know that sometimes people come running,
children come running, they slip and fall over
next to them.
Yeah, that's just how people are.
And teach them what to do.
(38:58):
And I train reindeers a lot.
So like stand still, looking forward.
Stand still, facing forward.
Because they also have a huge rack of
antler.
So if they turn around fast or if
they move fast, it's a big risk of
something getting stuck in those antlers, including myself.
(39:22):
So at all times, just stand still, facing
forward.
I think that's a good basic behavior.
And I teach them to offer that even
if people like fall on the ground behind
them, next to them, in front of them,
come running, running away, screaming, singing, clapping their
(39:43):
hands, you know, whatever.
Make them comfortable with doing this behavior, no
matter what people around them are doing.
Also to act in movies, like quite strange
thing can happen around an animal.
And when I do movies with the reindeer,
there's quite a lot little elves and Father
(40:06):
Christmas is staring, you know.
It's a lot of little special creatures on
those movies.
And I want the reindeer to be comfortable
around all of them.
So quite often I dress up like the
Grinch or something and do training sessions to
make them comfortable with everything and anything.
(40:31):
And also teach them to be handled by
other people.
I want them to be able to come
and duck into their head stall when another
person offers it, to be touched by other
people, to do their platform behaviors next to
actors and stuff like that.
(40:51):
And I think it's a good idea for
any animal to be trained to be in
situations like that, because sooner or later you
will end up in a situation where people
doesn't behave as they are used to and
they can be scared, they can be angry.
You don't know until it happens, right?
(41:13):
Wonderful.
And I got lots of questions, but as
per normal, we will run out of time
if I ask more questions.
So let's go on to number five, please.
Okay, number five is like a big one
for me.
And it's always listen to your animal.
(41:34):
You have to be observant of any signs
of them being uncomfortable, tense or even angry.
To not put them into difficult situations and
be quick to adjust the environment when it
happens, because it will happen sometimes, of course,
the world isn't perfect.
(41:54):
And I have a story that taught me
this, like the hard way.
It's also a bit funny looking back.
At the time, it wasn't funny at all.
My first two reindeer, they go into rut
every autumn, right?
So first year they are small and cute
and they play around.
(42:16):
The next year they play a bit harder
and practice a bit more fighting in the
rut season.
But it's still okay.
But when they're three years old, they are
like grown up and then it's not fun
anymore.
Then it's like for real.
And before I castrated my first reindeer males,
(42:37):
they went into rut third year and I
was just as usual bringing them from the
pen.
We were walking up to the car, I
was supposed to put them in the trailer
and go training with them.
And that had never been a problem.
I just put the head stall on each
of them, had a two meter leash to
(42:59):
lead them with.
I had one reindeer in my right hand,
one in my left hand and off we
went to the car.
Easy peasy.
But today, this day when I did it,
I could see when I walked out of
the enclosure that Rudolf, he was tense.
He was like walking quite stiff with a
(43:19):
little bit starry eyes.
And his friend, he was a bit smaller
than him, Frost.
He was a smaller reindeer.
He were lower in ranking and he just
walks as usual on my left side.
It wasn't a problem, but Rudolf was stiff.
And the thought crossed my mind like, okay,
should I leave one in the enclosure and
(43:41):
bring them one and one up to the
car?
But it was like a 300 meters walk.
And I thought I didn't have the time.
So I just said, Rudolf, come on, let's
walk forward.
A bit, you know, come on.
Don't be ridiculous kind of thought.
And then you always slip, right?
Don't be ridiculous.
Whenever you think that about an animal, you
(44:01):
lost your way.
And I did because we walked maybe 10
meters and then Rudolf had it.
He considered me at that time being like
his little wife because I'm a female and
he went into rut season.
And he thought the other male was too
(44:23):
close.
So it was fine when they were alone
in the enclosure and he held the distance.
But when a resource like myself entered, he
didn't want him as close.
So he attacked his reindeer friend.
And unfortunately, I was standing in between them.
So I ended up in his antler.
(44:45):
They have a really strong neck.
When they go into rut, it's like with
bulls.
You say they see red.
You say that he was like not.
It wasn't possible to contact him at all.
He was just attacking this reindeer.
And I didn't feel he even noticed me
hanging in his antler over his head.
(45:08):
And yeah, that went out quite well since
I'm alive.
But I had one tip of the antler
going into my bum.
So I had quite a bad wound.
When I stepped off the reindeer antler, I
(45:31):
felt like, oh crap, this was no good.
I put them in the trailer and I
went to my veterinarian because I'm quite scared
of the doctor.
And I don't want to be stitched with
the needle.
I think all that's for me like horrible.
So I went to my veterinarian and I
put my pants down and lay down over
(45:53):
her table and said, you have to fix
my bum and no stitches, please.
And no, she laughed.
She laughed and she laughed.
But she said, yeah, I have quite a
good glue.
I can glue it together.
So she cleaned it and glued it.
And she gave my two bulls like a
(46:14):
shot of hormone reducing thing like Depo or
something.
So they would chill out a bit with
this testosterone.
And yeah, and she was laughing.
But then she said like, OK, this was
quite close to the big, big artery.
You know, you have to be careful.
(46:34):
And I got my two bulls castrated.
And yeah, I learned about reindeer rut season,
like the hard way.
But I also learned a lot about reading
the small signs because there were signs and
I ignored them.
And I shouldn't have.
And if you ignore the signs of dogs,
(46:55):
maybe it doesn't get as serious.
But still, I think it's important to not
make your animal uncomfortable.
And it's also important to keep yourself and
people around you safe.
And the big part of that is reading
the small signs and make sure your animal
is confident and happy in the environment you
(47:19):
put them in.
Yeah, well, it's a powerful reminder that sounds
like it could have ended up much worse.
Yes, much worse.
Lucky that it didn't.
So thank you for sharing that.
It was also hilarious.
Yes, it is.
(47:41):
But scary and a great reminder, a great
lesson and insightful story as well.
So thank you for sharing that.
To go through the list again of the
five things reindeer have taught you.
Obviously, as you mentioned earlier, there's more than
five, but five that we've talked about today.
The importance of reinforcement and knowing your reinforcement
(48:05):
for your learner.
The importance of teaching them how to teach
and for your reindeer, teaching them to perform
in complex environments.
The most important one, one might say, to
be a splitter, not a lumper.
Yeah, be a splitter.
And make sure you get the right behaviour.
(48:28):
Teaching them how to interact with people and
to always listen to your animal.
Well, thank you so much for sharing this,
all of us today.
All of us.
Sadly, though, this does bring us to the
final question.
And it's what I love to ask all
our guests.
And I'm wondering from your perspective, what would
you like to see happen in the animal
(48:50):
training world over the next five to ten
years?
I would love to see more, a bigger
number of species being trained with positive reinforcement.
I mean, husbandry training with all kinds of
animals, please.
It's so easy to do it with positive
reinforcement.
(49:11):
I'd love to see that.
And a big part of what I do
is training bird hunting dogs to do this
kind of redirection training when we teach them
to not hunt reindeer.
But when they encounter reindeer, turn around and
contact with your handler.
(49:34):
And I also teach them a lot of
retrieving.
And back in the days, they were using
electric shocks to train this behaviour, not to
hunt reindeer.
It's not legal in Sweden today.
Thankful for that.
But many people, they don't even have an
(49:55):
idea that it would be possible to do
with positive reinforcement.
And the retrieve have also a history of
being trained really harsh with a lot of
punishment.
And I'm happy for every hunting dog coming
here with an open-minded trainer to teach
those things with positive reinforcement and click training
(50:18):
instead.
And I would love to see, of course,
all dogs, but especially the group hunting dogs.
I see a lot of hunting dogs and
I know they are trained really harsh.
And I would love to see all of
them being clicker trained in 10 years.
It's a big area of punishment still.
(50:40):
Well, I think every listener of this show
resonates with that, whether it's with hunting or
whatever area, industry, space, animals and dogs are
treated like that.
And I'm pumped to add reindeer to our
library today and to make this episode with
(51:02):
you, Ulis, to show what's possible with positive
reinforcement in the species that we haven't talked
about on Animal Training Academy before.
So thank you for the gift of allowing
us to do that.
Can you just, before we officially, officially wrap
up, just remind everyone listening where they can
go to find you online and get in
touch.
Yeah, on my website, it's easy to get
(51:25):
in touch with me and read more about
reindeer training and dog training.
And it is ulisrudolf.se. And you can
also find Ulis Rudolf on Facebook and Instagram.
Fantastic.
And we will, of course, link to all
of us in the show notes as well.
This has been so much fun for myself
(51:46):
and on behalf of everyone listening.
Thank you so much.
We really appreciate you taking the time out
of your morning to come and hang out
with us here at ATA.
Thank you, Ryan.
It was a pleasure to hang out with
you.
And thanks a lot for a great podcast.
And thank you so much for listening as
(52:07):
well.
This is your host, Ryan Cartlidge, signing off
from this episode of the Animal Training Academy
podcast show.
We hope today's conversation inspired you and equipped
you with new tools for your trainer's toolbox.
Remember, every challenge in training is an opportunity
to learn and sharpen your animal training geekery.
(52:31):
Embrace the rough patches, learn from them and
keep improving.
And don't forget, the path to growing your
skills and expanding your knowledge continues beyond this
episode.
Visit www.atamember.com to join our supportive
membership, where you will find a community of
(52:53):
trainers just like you.
Together, we're making a huge positive difference in
the lives of animal and human learners worldwide.
Until next time, keep honing your skills, stay
awesome.
And remember, every interaction with an animal or
human learner is your opportunity to create ripples.
(53:17):
We're here, cheering you on every step of
the way.
See you at the next episode.
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