February 3, 2025 • 29 mins
Despite my detective work, it looks like I was completely wrong about who the next Minister for Education was going to be and it's Helen McEntee who is our education minister.
Join me as I write a letter telling Helen McEntee what I would love to see happening in the education system as she takes over from a depressing almost-decade of neglect.
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(00:03):
Hello, you are very welcome to if I werethe minister for education from on shot
dot net, a regular podcast where I diveinto the world of primary education in
Ireland and let you know what I woulddo if I were the minister for education.
This is Simon Lewis speaking.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to my fortnightly
(00:27):
newsletter, where I go through some ofthe news from Irish primary education
and beyond from my own perspective.
And I also give some hints and tips fromthe classroom, some technology tips and
other bonus materials that's at onshaw.
net slash subscribe.
On this week's show, Iam writing a love letter.
(00:49):
Don't worry, it's notthat kind of love letter.
It's a letter where I tell the newMinister for Education what I would love
to see happening in the Irish primaryeducation system under the new government.
Now, despite my detective work and Iwent through a top 10 possibilities,
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actually it was a top 13 possibilities ofwho the next minister for education was.
I was completely wrong.
Even this the new ministerfor education is Helen McEntee
and congratulations to her.
But she didn't even feature inmy top 10, never mind my top 13.
She was completely off my radar.
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And I hope you don't take this the wrongway that's you, the listeners, and maybe
this tells me how little I believe theministry means in terms of importance
to politicians, but I honestly didn'tconsider Helen McEntee for the ministry
simply because she's the deputy leaderof Fianna Ghael, and I expected her to
be given the a more senior position.
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And when I say a senior position, Ireally don't like the fact that education
isn't considered to be, I supposeit's a senior position, but one of the
minor senior positions in the party.
And I don't know, maybe that says alot about how Ireland and how the Irish
population value the education system.
When you look at other countries,That have prioritized education, and
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you can see how that has affectedtheir entire economy, their entire
government, their entire outlook.
You look at the likes of EstoniaPoland, to a point, you look at
Finland, of course, who did that inthe nineties, and we saw how it became
the most happiest country in the world.
The.
Best education system in the worldand even their economy became
one of the biggest in the world.
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You remember Nokia and some of theother successes that have come from
tech in Finland, but in Ireland,we just don't value education.
Beyond it being a childcare service, Iwas struck this week when I was reading
some articles about Helen McEnteebeing the Minister for Education.
There was one that jumped out at me.
(02:58):
I think Mary McCarthy was the wasthe journalist who spoke about
Helen McEntee and why she was glad.
Ellen McEntee was potentially potentiallywhy she was glad she would be the
Minister of Education because, and thisis why, she has two young children who
will be starting school and essentiallywhat she will be able to do is sort
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out the childcare arrangements thatshe has to, that she's going to have
to suffer from the fact that infantsfinish an hour earlier than their
counterparts in first class upwards.
This is why.
Was the main focus for Helen McEntee,according to this journalist, and if
we consider if we keep pushing that ourprimary education system is no more or
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little more than a childcare servicewe're going to get what we wish for.
And, I think the fact that we do so wellin the various OECD studies is going
to, we're going to find that dropping.
Because we value it so little and weseem to be pushing it, with it rather
than actual pedagogical thing which weactually were pretty doing pretty well
(04:07):
at in terms of pedagogy into thingslike free school books, free lunches,
free this and childcare services.
We will reap what we sow inmy view if that's the case.
Anyway, I haven't even started on my loveletter and I'm giving out, but maybe I'm
wrong that we see education as a minorportfolio because the fact that McEntee
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is, has been given the role says to methat it's valued, that it is a big deal
for the deputy leader of a politicalparty to take on the education portfolio.
And I may be being over optimistic,but it might mean that the last almost
decade of neglect of education, whereeffectively, I suppose what you consider.
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a minor politician getting the role.
We look at Norma Foley and welook at Joe McHugh before that.
Neither of those, both of those cases.
When they were announced, the firstthing that most people said was, who?
And it's nice to see that wehave a politician that people
know already and was a seniorand still is a senior politician.
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So maybe something will happen if we thinkback to the previous two ministers before
that, Richard Bruton and Rory Quinn.
Both of those.
While maybe divisive in some ways,both of those did make an impact
during their tenure and didn'tjust neglect the education system.
They actually had some impact,whether we liked it or not.
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But of the top 10 people, I justwant going back to my top 10 people.
I was most excited aboutbeing the minister for
education from Fianna that is.
I had hoped it would have been JenniferCarole McNeil for the simple reason
that she was a politician on the rise.
So her elevation to healthsuggests that the leadership agree.
And despite a rather shaky term injustice,I still feel that McEntee is someone who
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is on the rise within Irish politics.
And this move to education willpossibly be a place where she
might be able to relaunch herself.
I feel she was I think unfairlytreated injustice so maybe moving
her to education to rebuild againmay give her that opportunity.
It makes me hope, perhaps, thatthe next few years might be
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interesting, and McEntee, if sheis brave, Could potentially be
a 21st century Donna O'Malley.
Now, that's me possibly being wayover optimistic, but we'll see.
So this love letter, as I call it,is a list of things I would love
to see happening in the primaryeducation sector in Ireland.
(06:47):
And I'm going to start.
I have this funny kind of thing.
I don't know if I've ever toldyou this on the podcast before.
Whenever I meet.
People people and when I say people,when I meet principled mainly
and they talk to me and they say,listen, I listen to your podcasts.
I read your blogs and things like that.
And you know what?
I agree.
And they always say this.
I agree with about 80 percentof what you talk about.
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They always say that.
And it's always 80%.
It's funny.
I always wish they'd get to 90or 95%, but it's always 80%.
And when I get the, when I talkto them, I say, do you don't mind
me asking, the way you said, 80%.
You agree with 80 percent of what I say.
What's the 20 percentthat you disagree with?
And that is my first love essentially.
And they don't agree with me onthis, but it's my love letter.
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So I'm going to say it.
And it's what I feelabsolutely passionate about.
I would love the minister to tackle.
The whole idea of patronage.
And I don't think it's going tocome as any surprise to anyone
that would be my first love.
The patronage system, to me,is long past its sell by date.
And I don't think even people who80 percent disagree with me, or
agree with me, disagree with that.
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And I'm beginning, to explorea little more deeply how it
affects almost every aspect of theIrish primary education system.
And in some ways, I think the reason ithasn't been looked at is because it's
generally always sold along religiouslines and that causes You know, rather
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than that causing logical reactions tothings, when I talk about the patronage
system, everyone should, and rightlyso it jumps to, religious control of
schools and I'm I've been exploring alittle bit about why this tact of mine
hasn't been working, and I mentionedit briefly in my previous episode
where I talked about the defensivenesspeople feel when I talk about
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Catholic schools not being inclusive.
And I wrote an article whichyou'll see in the show notes,
it's called Why I Understand WhyCatholic Schools Call Themselves
Inclusive Even Though They're Not.
And I talked about like why I canabsolutely understand the defensiveness
of Catholic principles of Catholicschools, getting defensive when I say
that Catholic schools can't be inclusivewhen they really believe they are.
(09:03):
And, I really wanted to think deeplyof trying to get into their mindset.
And I suppose I looked at myselfand where the times that I get
defensive, even when I know.
The person who's saying things is right,so I talked a little bit about the
situation in Gaza and, even when peopleare being critical rightly of the Israeli
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government, some part of deep insideof me because I was raised in a Jewish
family, gets this like defensivenessbecause there's this feeling, Oh, maybe
these people are being anti Semitic, eventhough I know they're not, or in fact,
I suspect And even there, you can hearthat the slight defensiveness in me.
So I can see how Catholic principals inCatholic schools who went to Catholic
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schools themselves and are sendingtheir kids to Catholic schools and
who go through the motions of all theCatholic sacraments and everything
else would get defensive if when I'mcriticizing a world that they just know.
And they're used to, and they're not usedto people looking at it in a critical way.
I also have, I go on about afriend of mine, an American.
(10:10):
A friend of mine who also feels that waywhen people are giving out about American
people being so stupid as to elect Trump.
And despite the fact that she herselfis very liberal, wouldn't have voted
for Trump, this idea that, you knowwhen Irish people or people are
calling Americans stupid, she getsthis sort of feeling of defensiveness.
(10:31):
That she can totally understand aswell and it's a I don't know if it's
an interesting article, but it'sthere in the show notes which kind
of describe why why I can understand.
So, long story short.
What I think I feel, what I feel Ineed to do is rather than tackling
patronage myself from a religiouspoint of view despite, I'm not
saying I'm going to stop doing that.
(10:52):
What I do need to find out is how doespatronage take religion out of patronage?
How is it affectingthe way we run schools?
I've been looking at that a littlebit, and I was really interested,
how it goes way beyond religion.
For example, it was really interestingto me how Stormy Owen gave the ability
(11:13):
for the state to insist schools close forthe day, but the same couldn't happen.
for the snow a coupleof weeks before that.
And in neither case were theDepartment of Education allowed
to tell schools to close.
For the storm, a red weather warning.
It was the National EmergencyCoordination Group that made the decision.
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And for the snow, because it wasan orange warning, the same group
didn't have the authority to closeschools, but neither did the, did.
The Department of Education.
And as usual, it came down the lineto individual schools because, as the
Department of Education always say whenthere's something difficult to do, It
is a matter for all individual schools.
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The new minister Helen McEntee, needsto address how the patronage system
affects everything from legal religiousdiscrimination to more efficient
coordination on policies and procedures.
For example, On the latter, every schoolis going to have to produce its own anti
bullying policies for this new B conaltaframework, despite the fact that they're
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pretty much all going to be the same.
The Department of Education have nopower to produce the policy for all
schools, and all of them have to adapt it.
Similarly, A few years ago, theNCSE were given new powers by the
Department of Education to forceschools to open special classes.
And in order for that to happen,the Department of Education couldn't
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demand directly that schools wouldchange their policies to an, to
allow the NCSE to open to, for,to force schools, to open classes.
They actually had to go to thepatron bodies to ask for them to ask.
individual schools to change theirpolicies to allow themselves to
be forced to open special classes.
I'm not sure if that makessense, but the department
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actually didn't make the demand.
They made the demand to patronbodies to make the demand
to their individual schools.
And if the patron refused, I'm not reallysure what the department could have done.
Particularly if it wasCatholic schools, because they
control 90 percent of schools.
So in some ways, and Ithink this is interesting.
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With that in mind, and this is whereI think there is a significantly
potential problem should the governmentwish to push through policies
to primary schools in Ireland.
Should the Catholic Church be againstany policy or any circular or any
idea that the department wants to pushthrough, the Catholic Church probably
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holds the power if they choose to do so.
Because.
If they refuse to allow 90 percent ofschools in the country to do something,
it's not really going to happen, is it?
Realistically, no otherpatron has that power.
If, for example, the Educate Togethernetwork decided, I'm not going to, we're
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not going to do this particular policy,whatever it might be, it doesn't have
to be, it's nothing to do with religion,the Department of Education will go,
OK, fine, we won't give you any funding.
However, if the Catholic Church decidesto do it, I don't think the Department
of Education are going to stand up andsay we're not going to fund your schools,
we're not going to build any schools foryou, because it's 90 percent of schools.
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There would be outrage.
All the Department of Educationcan do is withhold funding.
That's what I think they, that'sall they can do from the patronage.
And while I think they'd have noissue doing that to a smaller patron.
I don't think they try itwith the Catholic ones.
It's actually interesting that the onlytime I've ever heard the Department of
Education withdrawing funding in recenthistory was actually for a Muslim school.
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And again, I've linked, made a linkin the show notes to an article
where Bat O'Keefe withdrew grantsfrom the board of an Islamic school.
And I've never heard of it happening.
In any other school in the country.
I would love the new minister toget a group together to look at the
structure of patronage and come upwith a long term plan to changing it.
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So outside of her remit, becauseif she doesn't last longer than
the five years, I don't, I thinkthis is a longer term thing.
But I do think a new grouphas to come together.
I think it's basically a new patronagefor forum of patronage and pluralism,
because obviously, as we know, that.
didn't work.
We need a new patronage forum, and maybewe need to get rid of the whole pluralism
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idea, but that's for another story.
In fact, I could write a fullbook on this but I will move on.
I would love the new minister.
to sort out specialeducation once and for all.
Now, if the new minister thinks opening upas many special classes in special schools
is all it's going to take to sort outspecial education, she is going to fail
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spectacularly at rebuilding her brand.
The neglect of special educationwas ongoing since the recession, and
it needs to be addressed quickly.
And as soon as possible.
Any system that was brought in from 2011to 2016 needs to be examined, such as
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the 20 percent cut to resource hours,which was never reversed and remains in
place through the set allocation model.
The minister will also have tolook at decisions made since 2017,
which were no better, especiallythe set allocation model.
and front loading models.
While there were some green shootswith the front loading model, the set
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allocation model remains a completemess, based on junk data and over 90
percent of schools not receiving enoughresources for the children in their care.
And on top of all of this, schools needproper therapeutic wraparound services.
For me, This is what successful countriesdo, and this is what makes them stand out.
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And I'm sorry to go on about Finlandagain, but I went over there.
And I have to say, and I'vewritten an article about this.
When I went to Finland, there wasnothing amazing about their teaching.
In fact, I felt we were superiorin our teaching methodologies.
But what they had, every schoolhad a psychologist, a social
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worker, and a nurse on site.
And in Ireland, we need something similar.
We also possibly need, becausewe're in such, there's a
Yiddish word, we're in stach.
It means we're absolutely atnothing, we are in terrible bother.
We need speech and language therapists.
Occupational therapists, I think thatwould top the list of needs right now.
I suppose behavioraltherapists maybe as well.
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I don't know.
But certainly a psychologist,social worker, nurse, and
therapist would be very valuable.
I have argued that special educationwill be the scandal of the 21st century.
And if the new minister can stop thatfrom happening, she would be well in
line for the same accolades, I think,as Dhana O'Malley would have received.
(18:09):
So let's move on.
I would love to see new andbetter leadership supports.
Now, if there's one thing that theIrish Primary Principals Network,
that's the IPPN, has done in thelast few years, it was to highlight
that primary school principals sufferdouble the amount of stress and mental
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health issues of the national average.
It is quite mad that the departmenthave yet to do anything concrete
to help despite the promises in theProgramme for Government this time.
While the IPPN.
are rolling out a rather strange seriesof seminars on making the job doable.
This is the title of their seminars.
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I am going to go to one of themto to see what it's all about.
Given that they argue it isn'tsustainable, the departments
have yet to make any assurancesof anything they're going to do.
The focus now needs tobe on reducing workload.
Ever since I got involved with theIPPN and also with the National
Principals Forum, every singlesurvey that I was involved in more
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or less indicated that workload wasthe biggest priority for principals.
I would also suggest that the newminister needs to stop drip feeding
the positions of responsibility back.
She simply needs torestore them all in one Go.
The INTO should really behanging their heads into shame.
For many reasons, but on this one inparticular, they had a directive that
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we would not cooperate with SSE untilthe posts of responsibility were back.
And the minute that they were dripfed they completely lifted that
that directive and they should neverhave lifted the directive until
all positions were back in place.
And the stress that has been caused bythis drip feeding is not fair on INTO.
But on both the schools involved andbut also the teachers who year after
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year have to come back to an interviewand it must be just depressing for
certain teachers who over the last Isuppose they've been drip feeding for
I don't know what seven or eight yearsand that means a lot of schools will
be obviously advertising a new postevery year and every year they go to the
interview with the best will in the worldand every year they get disappointed.
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It just must be.
Oh, it must be depressing and it'sawful and it shouldn't be happening.
Basically, restore all the rest of themin one go and be done with it because and
at least that way we can actually startplanning properly again because again,
we can't plan either without knowingwhether the posts are coming back or not.
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Anyway, enough ranting on that one.
Let's go to the next one.
I would love for us to go back tofocusing on teaching and learning.
When I've been asked the biggestdifference that I've noticed in
primary education, I give the exampleof when I was last in the classroom.
Back then, I probably, I would say,made two phone calls to parents a year.
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Yes, a year.
These days, teachers probablymake two phone calls a day.
Teachers are spending so much of theirday tackling non teaching issues,
whether that's unnecessary paperwork,dealing with increased behaviours, and
replying to constant streams of emails.
I'm leaving a lot out in that list.
That's just three examples.
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So much is expected of teachers.
And very little of it hasanything to do with education.
The new curriculum has been amassive disappointment to me.
What could have easily been arevolution of 21st century learning
is merely a small tweak to the 1999curriculum, even with the new subjects.
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So much more could have beenachieved and it simply wasn't.
The Department of Education has spentthe last five years turning primary
education into a child care service.
That's not taking anything away fromchild care of course, it's just not what
primary education is supposed to be.
Initiative after initiative has beenfocused on benefiting parents rather
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And when I say benefiting parents, Imean their pockets, as in their money.
Whether it's free school books, freeschool meals, free school transport,
everything seems to be focusedon parents, financial situations,
rather than children's brains.
Teachers are rarely mentioned bythe Minister for Education when she
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was making announcements and this isalso something that needs to change.
I can't believe I'm about to saythis, but Teaching is central
to good outcomes for education.
When we are preventing teachersfrom teaching, we are in big
trouble, and we will see this,or if we aren't going to already.
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I would love for our new ministerto ensure that teaching becomes
central to the role of the teacher.
Anything that is important, but unrelatedto teaching, needs to be given to someone.
else which leads me to my next love.
I would love a new position called theteaching assistant to arrive in Ireland.
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Yes, I would love the Ministerfor Education to announce a new
post, the Teaching Assistant.
It's probably links to my previouspoint, as I said, but it is madness
to believe that for 21st centurylearning to happen that can be
done in a classroom by one person.
There are so many conflicting needsgoing on in every primary school
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classroom in the country that oneperson simply can't manage them all.
For example, when a disagreement takesplace on Yard, the This now takes huge
time away from teaching and learning.
For example, if some children arereally struggling with a concept, a
teaching assistant could help workwith other children in the classroom.
For example, if a phone call needsto be made to book an appointment
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with a parent, you get the point.
The new minister for educationneeds to look into the idea of
teaching assistants urgently.
I would love.
the new minister to tackle thelack of diversity in teaching.
As I often quote, 99.
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7 percent of primary schoolteachers in Ireland are white.
and Irish, and this comparesvery poorly with almost every
other job in the country.
And I think the Dáil may be theonly workplace that is less diverse.
I am still the only mainstream primaryschool principal in Ireland from an ethnic
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minority, and I often joke that I'm noteven a good example because everyone
that sees me assumes that I'm not.
Visually, I am also white.
And Irish.
And to me, this is crazy.
However, I don't believeit isn't by design.
The entire structure of our Irishprimary education system makes it really
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difficult for diversity to happen.
Yes, we have a few teacherscoming through the system now,
but it's nowhere near enough.
These teachers are still the onlyones in their year groups rather
than being representative of society.
Those who speak to the media admit theyare unlikely to find employment easily
due to the obstacles in place in Ireland.
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And on top of this, for whatever reason,people cannot see past diversity equaling
migrants, and that it will take timefor them to progress into the system.
And it's nonsense.
We're already well into twogenerations of native Irish people
who come from diverse backgrounds.
I would love the newminister to start talking.
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Taking the lack of diversity inour system seriously, of all the
issues I've mentioned, to me thisis the easiest one to tackle.
It's a shocking failure of everyoneinvolved in the education system that
we are still in a situation, especiallyour trade union movement, the INTO,
who should be leading on this, whoshould be leading on it so strongly
(26:26):
so the minister can take this on.
And I think if a minister does take thison, they will reap the rewards of it.
I'm shocked, to be honest, about theINTO and how poorly they are doing this.
And maybe I'll do an episodecompletely based on diversity
within the education system.
I think it's definitely worth,looking at the pitfalls and I
(26:48):
do feel I'm justified in reallypointing most of my ire on the INTO.
My understanding of unions is equality.
Is number one about when it comesto everything that equality has to
be number one, and I do not senseany appetite for pushing against
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this issue, and I know it's verydifficult, and I know it's really hard.
To put yourself out there when themajority of people disagree with you.
But that's the job of a union, in my view.
Anyway, I'm moving on to the unionrather than the minister for education.
And look, I feel I've gone over gonequite far in time wise, and I won't
(27:34):
keep going and annoying you with.
Other issues, but obviously there aremany other areas that the new Minister
for Education needs to consider.
Funding is a huge one, of course, and Ithink we'll be talking about that again.
Climate change and biodiversity, Ithink these are areas that are really
important for this generation of children.
They need to prepare themselves for aworld and we've seen that, as I've said,
(27:56):
about the storms and the snow, and arethese going to be very common things?
We need to obviously get theMinistry to focus on technology.
That's still very much an interestingarea where it's becoming a curriculum
subject, but there's no guaranteed fundingevery year for it, and much, much more.
But I hope this gives a flavour ofwhat I'd love to see to change, and
(28:16):
I would love to hear what you think.
So that's it from me for this week.
I hope you enjoyed my love letter tothe Minister for Education of all the
things I would love to see happening.
And if you've enjoyed this, as I said,please subscribe to my newsletter
on shop dot net slash subscribe.
And I would love to hear from you.
(28:38):
And any.
If there is anything else you'dlike me to discuss on this podcast,
I'd love to get suggestions.
If you are passionate about something,you'd like me to interview you.
I love having an interview with people.
So please get in touch as well.
Other than that, you can findme on all the social platforms.
I'm enjoying myself a littlemore on Instagram these days.
Also LinkedIn as exp continues tofall out of favor with all of us.
(29:02):
Thank you very much for listening.
We'll catch you again soon.
All the very best.
Bye bye.
Hello, you are very welcome to if I werethe minister for education from on shot
dot net, a regular podcast where I diveinto the world of primary education in
Ireland and let you know what I woulddo if I were the minister for education.
This is Simon Lewis speaking.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to my fortnightly
(00:27):
newsletter, where I go through some ofthe news from Irish primary education
and beyond from my own perspective.
And I also give some hints and tips fromthe classroom, some technology tips and
other bonus materials that's at onshaw.
net slash subscribe.
On this week's show, Iam writing a love letter.
(00:49):
Don't worry, it's notthat kind of love letter.
It's a letter where I tell the newMinister for Education what I would love
to see happening in the Irish primaryeducation system under the new government.
Now, despite my detective work and Iwent through a top 10 possibilities,
(01:10):
actually it was a top 13 possibilities ofwho the next minister for education was.
I was completely wrong.
Even this the new ministerfor education is Helen McEntee
and congratulations to her.
But she didn't even feature inmy top 10, never mind my top 13.
She was completely off my radar.
(01:31):
And I hope you don't take this the wrongway that's you, the listeners, and maybe
this tells me how little I believe theministry means in terms of importance
to politicians, but I honestly didn'tconsider Helen McEntee for the ministry
simply because she's the deputy leaderof Fianna Ghael, and I expected her to
be given the a more senior position.
(01:54):
And when I say a senior position, Ireally don't like the fact that education
isn't considered to be, I supposeit's a senior position, but one of the
minor senior positions in the party.
And I don't know, maybe that says alot about how Ireland and how the Irish
population value the education system.
When you look at other countries,That have prioritized education, and
(02:17):
you can see how that has affectedtheir entire economy, their entire
government, their entire outlook.
You look at the likes of EstoniaPoland, to a point, you look at
Finland, of course, who did that inthe nineties, and we saw how it became
the most happiest country in the world.
The.
Best education system in the worldand even their economy became
one of the biggest in the world.
(02:37):
You remember Nokia and some of theother successes that have come from
tech in Finland, but in Ireland,we just don't value education.
Beyond it being a childcare service, Iwas struck this week when I was reading
some articles about Helen McEnteebeing the Minister for Education.
There was one that jumped out at me.
(02:58):
I think Mary McCarthy was the wasthe journalist who spoke about
Helen McEntee and why she was glad.
Ellen McEntee was potentially potentiallywhy she was glad she would be the
Minister of Education because, and thisis why, she has two young children who
will be starting school and essentiallywhat she will be able to do is sort
(03:21):
out the childcare arrangements thatshe has to, that she's going to have
to suffer from the fact that infantsfinish an hour earlier than their
counterparts in first class upwards.
This is why.
Was the main focus for Helen McEntee,according to this journalist, and if
we consider if we keep pushing that ourprimary education system is no more or
(03:44):
little more than a childcare servicewe're going to get what we wish for.
And, I think the fact that we do so wellin the various OECD studies is going
to, we're going to find that dropping.
Because we value it so little and weseem to be pushing it, with it rather
than actual pedagogical thing which weactually were pretty doing pretty well
(04:07):
at in terms of pedagogy into thingslike free school books, free lunches,
free this and childcare services.
We will reap what we sow inmy view if that's the case.
Anyway, I haven't even started on my loveletter and I'm giving out, but maybe I'm
wrong that we see education as a minorportfolio because the fact that McEntee
(04:31):
is, has been given the role says to methat it's valued, that it is a big deal
for the deputy leader of a politicalparty to take on the education portfolio.
And I may be being over optimistic,but it might mean that the last almost
decade of neglect of education, whereeffectively, I suppose what you consider.
(04:53):
a minor politician getting the role.
We look at Norma Foley and welook at Joe McHugh before that.
Neither of those, both of those cases.
When they were announced, the firstthing that most people said was, who?
And it's nice to see that wehave a politician that people
know already and was a seniorand still is a senior politician.
(05:15):
So maybe something will happen if we thinkback to the previous two ministers before
that, Richard Bruton and Rory Quinn.
Both of those.
While maybe divisive in some ways,both of those did make an impact
during their tenure and didn'tjust neglect the education system.
They actually had some impact,whether we liked it or not.
(05:39):
But of the top 10 people, I justwant going back to my top 10 people.
I was most excited aboutbeing the minister for
education from Fianna that is.
I had hoped it would have been JenniferCarole McNeil for the simple reason
that she was a politician on the rise.
So her elevation to healthsuggests that the leadership agree.
And despite a rather shaky term injustice,I still feel that McEntee is someone who
(06:02):
is on the rise within Irish politics.
And this move to education willpossibly be a place where she
might be able to relaunch herself.
I feel she was I think unfairlytreated injustice so maybe moving
her to education to rebuild againmay give her that opportunity.
It makes me hope, perhaps, thatthe next few years might be
(06:24):
interesting, and McEntee, if sheis brave, Could potentially be
a 21st century Donna O'Malley.
Now, that's me possibly being wayover optimistic, but we'll see.
So this love letter, as I call it,is a list of things I would love
to see happening in the primaryeducation sector in Ireland.
(06:47):
And I'm going to start.
I have this funny kind of thing.
I don't know if I've ever toldyou this on the podcast before.
Whenever I meet.
People people and when I say people,when I meet principled mainly
and they talk to me and they say,listen, I listen to your podcasts.
I read your blogs and things like that.
And you know what?
I agree.
And they always say this.
I agree with about 80 percentof what you talk about.
(07:10):
They always say that.
And it's always 80%.
It's funny.
I always wish they'd get to 90or 95%, but it's always 80%.
And when I get the, when I talkto them, I say, do you don't mind
me asking, the way you said, 80%.
You agree with 80 percent of what I say.
What's the 20 percentthat you disagree with?
And that is my first love essentially.
And they don't agree with me onthis, but it's my love letter.
(07:32):
So I'm going to say it.
And it's what I feelabsolutely passionate about.
I would love the minister to tackle.
The whole idea of patronage.
And I don't think it's going tocome as any surprise to anyone
that would be my first love.
The patronage system, to me,is long past its sell by date.
And I don't think even people who80 percent disagree with me, or
agree with me, disagree with that.
(07:53):
And I'm beginning, to explorea little more deeply how it
affects almost every aspect of theIrish primary education system.
And in some ways, I think the reason ithasn't been looked at is because it's
generally always sold along religiouslines and that causes You know, rather
(08:16):
than that causing logical reactions tothings, when I talk about the patronage
system, everyone should, and rightlyso it jumps to, religious control of
schools and I'm I've been exploring alittle bit about why this tact of mine
hasn't been working, and I mentionedit briefly in my previous episode
where I talked about the defensivenesspeople feel when I talk about
(08:38):
Catholic schools not being inclusive.
And I wrote an article whichyou'll see in the show notes,
it's called Why I Understand WhyCatholic Schools Call Themselves
Inclusive Even Though They're Not.
And I talked about like why I canabsolutely understand the defensiveness
of Catholic principles of Catholicschools, getting defensive when I say
that Catholic schools can't be inclusivewhen they really believe they are.
(09:03):
And, I really wanted to think deeplyof trying to get into their mindset.
And I suppose I looked at myselfand where the times that I get
defensive, even when I know.
The person who's saying things is right,so I talked a little bit about the
situation in Gaza and, even when peopleare being critical rightly of the Israeli
(09:26):
government, some part of deep insideof me because I was raised in a Jewish
family, gets this like defensivenessbecause there's this feeling, Oh, maybe
these people are being anti Semitic, eventhough I know they're not, or in fact,
I suspect And even there, you can hearthat the slight defensiveness in me.
So I can see how Catholic principals inCatholic schools who went to Catholic
(09:48):
schools themselves and are sendingtheir kids to Catholic schools and
who go through the motions of all theCatholic sacraments and everything
else would get defensive if when I'mcriticizing a world that they just know.
And they're used to, and they're not usedto people looking at it in a critical way.
I also have, I go on about afriend of mine, an American.
(10:10):
A friend of mine who also feels that waywhen people are giving out about American
people being so stupid as to elect Trump.
And despite the fact that she herselfis very liberal, wouldn't have voted
for Trump, this idea that, you knowwhen Irish people or people are
calling Americans stupid, she getsthis sort of feeling of defensiveness.
(10:31):
That she can totally understand aswell and it's a I don't know if it's
an interesting article, but it'sthere in the show notes which kind
of describe why why I can understand.
So, long story short.
What I think I feel, what I feel Ineed to do is rather than tackling
patronage myself from a religiouspoint of view despite, I'm not
saying I'm going to stop doing that.
(10:52):
What I do need to find out is how doespatronage take religion out of patronage?
How is it affectingthe way we run schools?
I've been looking at that a littlebit, and I was really interested,
how it goes way beyond religion.
For example, it was really interestingto me how Stormy Owen gave the ability
(11:13):
for the state to insist schools close forthe day, but the same couldn't happen.
for the snow a coupleof weeks before that.
And in neither case were theDepartment of Education allowed
to tell schools to close.
For the storm, a red weather warning.
It was the National EmergencyCoordination Group that made the decision.
(11:35):
And for the snow, because it wasan orange warning, the same group
didn't have the authority to closeschools, but neither did the, did.
The Department of Education.
And as usual, it came down the lineto individual schools because, as the
Department of Education always say whenthere's something difficult to do, It
is a matter for all individual schools.
(11:58):
The new minister Helen McEntee, needsto address how the patronage system
affects everything from legal religiousdiscrimination to more efficient
coordination on policies and procedures.
For example, On the latter, every schoolis going to have to produce its own anti
bullying policies for this new B conaltaframework, despite the fact that they're
(12:20):
pretty much all going to be the same.
The Department of Education have nopower to produce the policy for all
schools, and all of them have to adapt it.
Similarly, A few years ago, theNCSE were given new powers by the
Department of Education to forceschools to open special classes.
And in order for that to happen,the Department of Education couldn't
(12:44):
demand directly that schools wouldchange their policies to an, to
allow the NCSE to open to, for,to force schools, to open classes.
They actually had to go to thepatron bodies to ask for them to ask.
individual schools to change theirpolicies to allow themselves to
be forced to open special classes.
I'm not sure if that makessense, but the department
(13:05):
actually didn't make the demand.
They made the demand to patronbodies to make the demand
to their individual schools.
And if the patron refused, I'm not reallysure what the department could have done.
Particularly if it wasCatholic schools, because they
control 90 percent of schools.
So in some ways, and Ithink this is interesting.
(13:28):
With that in mind, and this is whereI think there is a significantly
potential problem should the governmentwish to push through policies
to primary schools in Ireland.
Should the Catholic Church be againstany policy or any circular or any
idea that the department wants to pushthrough, the Catholic Church probably
(13:50):
holds the power if they choose to do so.
Because.
If they refuse to allow 90 percent ofschools in the country to do something,
it's not really going to happen, is it?
Realistically, no otherpatron has that power.
If, for example, the Educate Togethernetwork decided, I'm not going to, we're
(14:12):
not going to do this particular policy,whatever it might be, it doesn't have
to be, it's nothing to do with religion,the Department of Education will go,
OK, fine, we won't give you any funding.
However, if the Catholic Church decidesto do it, I don't think the Department
of Education are going to stand up andsay we're not going to fund your schools,
we're not going to build any schools foryou, because it's 90 percent of schools.
(14:32):
There would be outrage.
All the Department of Educationcan do is withhold funding.
That's what I think they, that'sall they can do from the patronage.
And while I think they'd have noissue doing that to a smaller patron.
I don't think they try itwith the Catholic ones.
It's actually interesting that the onlytime I've ever heard the Department of
Education withdrawing funding in recenthistory was actually for a Muslim school.
(14:54):
And again, I've linked, made a linkin the show notes to an article
where Bat O'Keefe withdrew grantsfrom the board of an Islamic school.
And I've never heard of it happening.
In any other school in the country.
I would love the new minister toget a group together to look at the
structure of patronage and come upwith a long term plan to changing it.
(15:18):
So outside of her remit, becauseif she doesn't last longer than
the five years, I don't, I thinkthis is a longer term thing.
But I do think a new grouphas to come together.
I think it's basically a new patronagefor forum of patronage and pluralism,
because obviously, as we know, that.
didn't work.
We need a new patronage forum, and maybewe need to get rid of the whole pluralism
(15:39):
idea, but that's for another story.
In fact, I could write a fullbook on this but I will move on.
I would love the new minister.
to sort out specialeducation once and for all.
Now, if the new minister thinks opening upas many special classes in special schools
is all it's going to take to sort outspecial education, she is going to fail
(16:03):
spectacularly at rebuilding her brand.
The neglect of special educationwas ongoing since the recession, and
it needs to be addressed quickly.
And as soon as possible.
Any system that was brought in from 2011to 2016 needs to be examined, such as
(16:23):
the 20 percent cut to resource hours,which was never reversed and remains in
place through the set allocation model.
The minister will also have tolook at decisions made since 2017,
which were no better, especiallythe set allocation model.
and front loading models.
While there were some green shootswith the front loading model, the set
(16:43):
allocation model remains a completemess, based on junk data and over 90
percent of schools not receiving enoughresources for the children in their care.
And on top of all of this, schools needproper therapeutic wraparound services.
For me, This is what successful countriesdo, and this is what makes them stand out.
(17:07):
And I'm sorry to go on about Finlandagain, but I went over there.
And I have to say, and I'vewritten an article about this.
When I went to Finland, there wasnothing amazing about their teaching.
In fact, I felt we were superiorin our teaching methodologies.
But what they had, every schoolhad a psychologist, a social
(17:29):
worker, and a nurse on site.
And in Ireland, we need something similar.
We also possibly need, becausewe're in such, there's a
Yiddish word, we're in stach.
It means we're absolutely atnothing, we are in terrible bother.
We need speech and language therapists.
Occupational therapists, I think thatwould top the list of needs right now.
I suppose behavioraltherapists maybe as well.
(17:49):
I don't know.
But certainly a psychologist,social worker, nurse, and
therapist would be very valuable.
I have argued that special educationwill be the scandal of the 21st century.
And if the new minister can stop thatfrom happening, she would be well in
line for the same accolades, I think,as Dhana O'Malley would have received.
(18:09):
So let's move on.
I would love to see new andbetter leadership supports.
Now, if there's one thing that theIrish Primary Principals Network,
that's the IPPN, has done in thelast few years, it was to highlight
that primary school principals sufferdouble the amount of stress and mental
(18:31):
health issues of the national average.
It is quite mad that the departmenthave yet to do anything concrete
to help despite the promises in theProgramme for Government this time.
While the IPPN.
are rolling out a rather strange seriesof seminars on making the job doable.
This is the title of their seminars.
(18:53):
I am going to go to one of themto to see what it's all about.
Given that they argue it isn'tsustainable, the departments
have yet to make any assurancesof anything they're going to do.
The focus now needs tobe on reducing workload.
Ever since I got involved with theIPPN and also with the National
Principals Forum, every singlesurvey that I was involved in more
(19:16):
or less indicated that workload wasthe biggest priority for principals.
I would also suggest that the newminister needs to stop drip feeding
the positions of responsibility back.
She simply needs torestore them all in one Go.
The INTO should really behanging their heads into shame.
For many reasons, but on this one inparticular, they had a directive that
(19:37):
we would not cooperate with SSE untilthe posts of responsibility were back.
And the minute that they were dripfed they completely lifted that
that directive and they should neverhave lifted the directive until
all positions were back in place.
And the stress that has been caused bythis drip feeding is not fair on INTO.
But on both the schools involved andbut also the teachers who year after
(20:01):
year have to come back to an interviewand it must be just depressing for
certain teachers who over the last Isuppose they've been drip feeding for
I don't know what seven or eight yearsand that means a lot of schools will
be obviously advertising a new postevery year and every year they go to the
interview with the best will in the worldand every year they get disappointed.
(20:23):
It just must be.
Oh, it must be depressing and it'sawful and it shouldn't be happening.
Basically, restore all the rest of themin one go and be done with it because and
at least that way we can actually startplanning properly again because again,
we can't plan either without knowingwhether the posts are coming back or not.
(20:45):
Anyway, enough ranting on that one.
Let's go to the next one.
I would love for us to go back tofocusing on teaching and learning.
When I've been asked the biggestdifference that I've noticed in
primary education, I give the exampleof when I was last in the classroom.
Back then, I probably, I would say,made two phone calls to parents a year.
(21:08):
Yes, a year.
These days, teachers probablymake two phone calls a day.
Teachers are spending so much of theirday tackling non teaching issues,
whether that's unnecessary paperwork,dealing with increased behaviours, and
replying to constant streams of emails.
I'm leaving a lot out in that list.
That's just three examples.
(21:30):
So much is expected of teachers.
And very little of it hasanything to do with education.
The new curriculum has been amassive disappointment to me.
What could have easily been arevolution of 21st century learning
is merely a small tweak to the 1999curriculum, even with the new subjects.
(21:53):
So much more could have beenachieved and it simply wasn't.
The Department of Education has spentthe last five years turning primary
education into a child care service.
That's not taking anything away fromchild care of course, it's just not what
primary education is supposed to be.
Initiative after initiative has beenfocused on benefiting parents rather
(22:17):
And when I say benefiting parents, Imean their pockets, as in their money.
Whether it's free school books, freeschool meals, free school transport,
everything seems to be focusedon parents, financial situations,
rather than children's brains.
Teachers are rarely mentioned bythe Minister for Education when she
(22:39):
was making announcements and this isalso something that needs to change.
I can't believe I'm about to saythis, but Teaching is central
to good outcomes for education.
When we are preventing teachersfrom teaching, we are in big
trouble, and we will see this,or if we aren't going to already.
(23:02):
I would love for our new ministerto ensure that teaching becomes
central to the role of the teacher.
Anything that is important, but unrelatedto teaching, needs to be given to someone.
else which leads me to my next love.
I would love a new position called theteaching assistant to arrive in Ireland.
(23:26):
Yes, I would love the Ministerfor Education to announce a new
post, the Teaching Assistant.
It's probably links to my previouspoint, as I said, but it is madness
to believe that for 21st centurylearning to happen that can be
done in a classroom by one person.
There are so many conflicting needsgoing on in every primary school
(23:46):
classroom in the country that oneperson simply can't manage them all.
For example, when a disagreement takesplace on Yard, the This now takes huge
time away from teaching and learning.
For example, if some children arereally struggling with a concept, a
teaching assistant could help workwith other children in the classroom.
For example, if a phone call needsto be made to book an appointment
(24:09):
with a parent, you get the point.
The new minister for educationneeds to look into the idea of
teaching assistants urgently.
I would love.
the new minister to tackle thelack of diversity in teaching.
As I often quote, 99.
(24:32):
7 percent of primary schoolteachers in Ireland are white.
and Irish, and this comparesvery poorly with almost every
other job in the country.
And I think the Dáil may be theonly workplace that is less diverse.
I am still the only mainstream primaryschool principal in Ireland from an ethnic
(24:55):
minority, and I often joke that I'm noteven a good example because everyone
that sees me assumes that I'm not.
Visually, I am also white.
And Irish.
And to me, this is crazy.
However, I don't believeit isn't by design.
The entire structure of our Irishprimary education system makes it really
(25:19):
difficult for diversity to happen.
Yes, we have a few teacherscoming through the system now,
but it's nowhere near enough.
These teachers are still the onlyones in their year groups rather
than being representative of society.
Those who speak to the media admit theyare unlikely to find employment easily
due to the obstacles in place in Ireland.
(25:41):
And on top of this, for whatever reason,people cannot see past diversity equaling
migrants, and that it will take timefor them to progress into the system.
And it's nonsense.
We're already well into twogenerations of native Irish people
who come from diverse backgrounds.
I would love the newminister to start talking.
(26:03):
Taking the lack of diversity inour system seriously, of all the
issues I've mentioned, to me thisis the easiest one to tackle.
It's a shocking failure of everyoneinvolved in the education system that
we are still in a situation, especiallyour trade union movement, the INTO,
who should be leading on this, whoshould be leading on it so strongly
(26:26):
so the minister can take this on.
And I think if a minister does take thison, they will reap the rewards of it.
I'm shocked, to be honest, about theINTO and how poorly they are doing this.
And maybe I'll do an episodecompletely based on diversity
within the education system.
I think it's definitely worth,looking at the pitfalls and I
(26:48):
do feel I'm justified in reallypointing most of my ire on the INTO.
My understanding of unions is equality.
Is number one about when it comesto everything that equality has to
be number one, and I do not senseany appetite for pushing against
(27:11):
this issue, and I know it's verydifficult, and I know it's really hard.
To put yourself out there when themajority of people disagree with you.
But that's the job of a union, in my view.
Anyway, I'm moving on to the unionrather than the minister for education.
And look, I feel I've gone over gonequite far in time wise, and I won't
(27:34):
keep going and annoying you with.
Other issues, but obviously there aremany other areas that the new Minister
for Education needs to consider.
Funding is a huge one, of course, and Ithink we'll be talking about that again.
Climate change and biodiversity, Ithink these are areas that are really
important for this generation of children.
They need to prepare themselves for aworld and we've seen that, as I've said,
(27:56):
about the storms and the snow, and arethese going to be very common things?
We need to obviously get theMinistry to focus on technology.
That's still very much an interestingarea where it's becoming a curriculum
subject, but there's no guaranteed fundingevery year for it, and much, much more.
But I hope this gives a flavour ofwhat I'd love to see to change, and
(28:16):
I would love to hear what you think.
So that's it from me for this week.
I hope you enjoyed my love letter tothe Minister for Education of all the
things I would love to see happening.
And if you've enjoyed this, as I said,please subscribe to my newsletter
on shop dot net slash subscribe.
And I would love to hear from you.
(28:38):
And any.
If there is anything else you'dlike me to discuss on this podcast,
I'd love to get suggestions.
If you are passionate about something,you'd like me to interview you.
I love having an interview with people.
So please get in touch as well.
Other than that, you can findme on all the social platforms.
I'm enjoying myself a littlemore on Instagram these days.
Also LinkedIn as exp continues tofall out of favor with all of us.
(29:02):
Thank you very much for listening.
We'll catch you again soon.
All the very best.
Bye bye.
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