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October 14, 2024 • 35 mins

Episode 3: Those with the greatest needs

The episode examines the troubling history of the National Council for Special Education (NCSE) and its policies, including the controversial cuts to resources and the implementation of flawed allocation models. I discuss the systematic mistreatment and exclusion of special needs children, likening it to past societal scandals.

The episode dives into statistical discrepancies and the significant hardships faced by parents and schools, questioning the integrity and effectiveness of the NCSE and related political decisions.

At the end, I call on anyone working in the NCSE, especially SENOs to tell their story. Let's hope they do.

  • 00:43 The NCSE's Role and Controversial Actions
  • 05:21 Challenges Faced by Parents and Schools
  • 14:43 The Set Allocation Model and Its Flaws
  • 27:51 The SNA Toolkit and Its Implications
  • 32:24 Conclusion and Call for Stories

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to access on Dawn.
The collapse of special education.
A special podcast from onshore.net.
This is Simon Lewis, a teacherand principal for over 20 years.
And this series, I look back over theshort history of how children with
additional needs have slowly but surelybeen cast aside by the education system.

(00:28):
I argue that much like the crimes of theCatholic church on children, where the
scandal of the 20th century, that how thestate is treating children with additional
needs will be the scandal of the 21st.
In the last episode youhave been introduced to an
organization called the N C S E.

(00:51):
And you're going to be hearinga lot more about them now.
And I'm going to try and charge how theywent from supporting all children to only
helping those with the greatest need.
Ed Carti in the Irish independentwrote an article around mid 2013.

(01:12):
Claiming that special needs childrenwere being excluded from schools.
It uncovered evidence of mothersand fathers being told by schools.
They wish to enroll their child inthat another school might be more
suitable or that the resources weresimply not available for their child.

(01:33):
The report also claimed that thismade parents feel they had to fight
for a placement and that their childwas being enrolled on sufferance.
The article provided noexamples from families.
It provided no stories andparents who claimed they were
told to find another school.

(01:54):
And it was a really unusualarticle because over the years
I have learned that if you.
You want to get.
Get an article.
Published.
In the media.
In.
General.
It needs to.
To share a personal experience.
And this didn't.
This read more like a summary.

(02:16):
Have a press release.
Or a report.
And it was.
And who wrote it?
The N C S E.
The very organization who youmight remember very much welcomed,

(02:37):
the 15% cook to resources forchildren with additional needs.
The article, which I've linked in theshow notes continued with the NCSE
complaining that some schools erect,avert or soft barriers to prevent
or discourage parents from enrollingchildren with special educational needs.

(02:59):
And then there was this sentenceagain, quoted from the NCSC.
We consider that schools are fundedand resourced to provide an educational
service to all children in their locality.
And it made some recommendations andit's worth having a read of them.

(03:19):
Because I don't think I'm beingparanoid here, but they don't
seem to target the purse strings.
How to listen to these recommendations.
Every child with special educationalneeds is protected from enrollment
practices or policies with overt orcovert barriers that block his or her

(03:41):
access to enrollment in the school.
Every child with special educationalneeds that may enroll in the nearest
school that is, or can be resourcedby the NCSC to meet his or her needs.
School most enroll a studentwith special educational needs.
If so, directed by the special educationalneeds organizer on the basis that

(04:04):
the school would be provided withresources in line with national policy.
Just note in line with national policy,not in line with the child's needs.
And lastly, a school mustestablish a special class if
so, requested by the organizer.
They're basically claiming all of this.

(04:26):
It's the school's fault, despite thecuts, despite the lack of supports,
despite the increases in need, despiteno specialized training, despite
offering nothing of merit to schools.
In relation to the last recommendationwhere a school must establish a special
class, if so, requested by an organizer.

(04:47):
That's the CNO.
Despite the fact that no teachers wouldhave specialized training and working
in working in these specific classes.
Ah, I don't know.
It seems that it was going to be a mess.
And we'll come back to that again.
It's just one of manyissues with special classes.
However, before that, I want to lookat the changes that have happened since

(05:12):
this time, when it came to resourcingchildren with special educational needs.
I want to charge what'shappened since 2013, roughly.
I was watching a clip from a politicalshow on Virgin media TV, just before
I was writing this episode on a socialDemocrat politician was talking about the
fight after fight, the parents have to gothrough to get their child into a school.

(05:37):
And I was left thinking of two things.
The first was that thepolitician was almost aping.
The introduction I wrote for a podcastepisode about two and a half years ago.
Nothing has changed at all.
And secondly, I realized that anotherthing that had changed dramatically in
the last 15 years was once they got intoa school, the fight would only just begin.

(06:04):
And as the years are going on that fight.
Is getting worse and worse.
Here's exactly.
What I said in that episodetwo and a half years ago.
If you're a parent of a child withadditional needs, you're used to
going into battle for whateverreason, whether that's spending

(06:24):
years on waiting lists for speech andlanguage therapy, or trying to get an
appointment, to see a child psychiatrist.
It seems that as a nation, weare unable to provide any service
to children in a timely manner.
The HSE is usually themain culprit of this.
In recent times, parents are notbattling to ensure their child has
the basics of a place in a school.

(06:48):
Unlike the politician though.
I lay the blame, not particularly at Faenafor Faena Gail or any political party.
I said instead.
The agency that's absolutelyresponsible for all of this is the
national council for special education.
Back in 2022.

(07:08):
When I wrote that episode help,my NCSE has turned into the HSC.
It was shortly after the then ministerfor special education Josefa, Madigan
was celebrating, getting throughan NCSE policy, which gave them the
powers to open up special classes.
In any school.
They wished the department decided aswell to publish a list of schools that

(07:32):
had quote, refuse to open special classes.
Even though this wasn't true.
And I've linked.
An article from RTE about that.
In the show notes.
Madigan claim the schools had beenignoring correspondence from the NCSE
regarding the opening of special classes.
Now, when it turned out thatthis wasn't actually true.

(07:54):
Madigan refuse to back down.
And I'm not quite sure who sheblamed, but it wasn't herself.
Apparently she saidshe'd been misinformed.
However it didn't stop.
The single minded idea that thesolution to special education in
Ireland was to open as many specialclasses in as many schools as possible.

(08:15):
No matter what.
There was no care in the worldthat they were the right solution.
Nevermind the best solution, because theonly basis for opening these classes.
I was the collectiveagreement of middle Ireland.
A group of people who seem to believe thatall ills in society should be and can be

(08:35):
fixed by lazy teachers, whether that'spreparing their children for sacraments.
So they don't have to do it themselves.
The cost of uniforms and school books toschools being responsible for preventing
them from buying smartphones for theirchildren out, of course, in this case,
simply opening up classrooms for childrenwith particular needs, without giving
them any support or resources to helpthe children sitting in these costumes.

(09:00):
Some of which were described by theschools as converted storage areas.
It just must have been musicto the ears of the national
council for special education.
As far as the general public wereconcerned, open as many special classes as
possible, and the problems would be over.

(09:20):
It is a playbook.
The Irish population must be used to.
We seem to have a perceivedproblem in our society.
What do we need to do to covered it?
Up.
It's a question we'veasked for years on years.
And we seem to answer it in the sameway on married mothers could be put

(09:45):
to work as slaves and laundries.
Girls and women who felt pregnantcould secretly travel to England's.
Priests could be movedaround to different places.
If enough people were publiclyworried about them sexually
abusing their children.
And if we simply create places in schoolsfor autistic children and call them
units and not provide these children.

(10:06):
with train staff or theresources and supports they need.
As long as they're dumpedsomewhere, it doesn't matter what
happens once they aren't causingtrouble for the powers that be.
And yes, I am making comparisons withthe mother and baby homes as just
see from Madigan did when she wastalking about special classes, it
was one of her dafts that I actuallyhad some sympathy with, but I said

(10:30):
for a different reason and look.
I get this comparison is highlycontroversial and I don't for
one minute, believe that childrenin special classes are being
systematically abused by the staff.
My comparison is with the stateoutsourcing its responsibilities
to some quango and turning a blindeye when things inevitably go

(10:50):
wrong and then simply claiming noresponsibility when that happens.
I'm aware I'm walking a tight rope withthis, and I am aware how deeply hurtful
it might be to people who experienced theabuse in the hands of the Catholic church.
And don't believe the waythat we treat children with
additional needs is comparable.

(11:11):
But please understand that thiscomparison is not with the actions
of the people in the system,but it's with the system itself.
And while of course I amhorrified by the actions of the
clergy that abused children.
And women.
I am disgusted by the people thatlet it happen and stayed silent

(11:32):
or brushed it under the carpet.
In essence, what I believethe NCSC is doing supported by
government policy is basically.
Let's not think of any ideasof how we should really support
children with additional needs.
Let's dump them in aclassroom and call it a unit.

(11:53):
An Irish solution to an Irish problem.
As we discussed in thelast part of this series.
The NCSC didn't start off like this.
It was a simple organizationat the very beginning.
And a consisted of 72 special educationneeds organizers or see knows.

(12:14):
Or say knows.
As some people used to like to call them.
And as I said before, third jobwas to ensure that schools received
whatever supports were recommendedby educational psychologists.
This was until the recessionhit and everything changed.
There was a 15% cut to all resourcehours for children with additional needs.

(12:35):
That was surprisingly very muchwelcomed by the NCSC and around the
time the NCSE wanted extra powers.
One of which was the sat allocationmodel, which was introduced in 2017.
It's mentored the 15% cost to supportfor children with additional needs.
And it's never been reversed.

(12:57):
The recession lives on forchildren with additional needs.
Recent research from the nationalprincipal's forum in 2022, calculated
the children with additional needshad an average of 21% fewer teaching
supports than they would have hadback in 2007, 15 years before.

(13:21):
You might not have caught.
Caught that.
So I think bears.
Repeating.
Children with additional.
Needs are receiving.
21% fewer teaching supportsthan they did in 2007.
And that statisticalone is shocking to me.
And this is thanks to theNCSS new allocation model.

(13:43):
The one they were designing whileRory Quinn made the 15% court.
This is why the special allocationmodel that was designed in 2017.
To be a batter on fairway was soldto the public and supported by all
of the stakeholders as a bettermodel for allocating those resources.

(14:06):
I should say the stakeholders might nothave actively supported the new model.
But they definitelydidn't stand in its way.
There was absolute silence from the chiefspecial education representative group.
You might not have even heard of them.
They're known as NABS.
Annie or N a, B S M E.

(14:28):
I don't know if they deserve a mentionin this podcast because I don't know
if I have a lot to say about them.
I guess that just goes toshow their effectiveness.
What I do want to do.
Is I need discuss the setallocation model, which started
in 2017 and replaced the generalallocation resource hours model.

(14:53):
I remember clearly when it came out thatI was very worried about what it would
mean for the children in my school.
The idea was that instead of childrenbeing allocated resource hours,
the school would receive a totalallocation based on some algorithm.
And this algorithm we were toldwould be made up of five variables.

(15:16):
Our enrollment.
The gender makeup of theschool, standardized test
scores in literacy and numeracy.
Complex needs data from the HSC.
And you're whether youhad a dash status or not.
But by some amazing trick of mathematics.
School seemed to end up witharound the same amount of hours

(15:39):
as they had in 2016 in this model.
Now, I don't know about you, but ifI invented an algorithm that could
allocate hours using a very simpleformula, And it managed to somehow
match all of the 3,200 plus schoolsis a previous year's allocations.

(16:00):
I would probably be looking fora Nobel prize in mathematics.
And then another beautiful coincidence.
If one was to ask for every skillsbreakdown of hours by a freedom of
information requests, like I did.
This data is exempt from that.
And in some ways it's no bad thing becauseinevitably that would have meant the start

(16:21):
of league tables and primary schools.
However, the downside is there is noway to compare schools, allocations.
However, I thought of a way that couldgive a reasonably good indicator of
whether this algorithm made any sense.
Logically.
I would have thought.
That if one took every school in everycounty and then got an average allocation

(16:47):
per child in each school in each county.
Each county should havearound the same allocation.
And ultimately as ithappened, There was no logic.
Every county was anything between 0.3,two hours to 0.5, two hours per pupil.

(17:07):
I know only seven counties.
I came within 2% of the average.
Now, some might argue that's thetesting alone doesn't prove anything.
And if I saw that, I probablysay you need more proof.
And in fairness, If I hadn't decided tocheck the data over a six-year period.
Maybe that had something, butthat's exactly what I did.

(17:29):
And you can have a look at my entiredata set by using the link in the
show notes because every secondyear, the sash allocations are
recalculated using this magic algorithm.
And amazingly when schoolsstarted suspecting their.
Allocations weren't right.
For a variety of reasons.
It turns out they were probably right.
The biggest example of this were schoolsthat were growing in size and these

(17:53):
schools are known as developing schools.
I decided to compare every developingschool to every school that wasn't
developing and see how they fared.
And the Sasha allocations from yearto year and despite growing their
enrollments by an average of 27%.
Developing skills set allocationsper capita went down by over 15%.

(18:17):
And on the contrary skills that didn'tgrow on average went down in enrollments
by just over 3%, but somehow gainedover 2% in their set allocations.
I'm going back to comparing counties.
There were three sets of sat allocationscalculated after the 2017 allocations.

(18:39):
And you'd expect that counties wouldeither gain or lose roughly the same
percentage of allocations per pupil.
Each time.
However again, therewas no rhyme or reason.
There is no pattern.
For no reason whatsoever allocations incounty awfully went up by nearly 11%.

(18:59):
But in Roscommon, they went down by 39%.
It was clear that thedata being used was at.
Best junk.
How was it?
But on unbelievable that the algorithmusing five variables could allocate
so closely to the previous model.
'cause it was unbelievable.

(19:20):
The data was nothing but fantasy.
No better than pluckingfigures out of thin air.
Some people point to one ofthe five variables for this.
The complex needs variable.
In fact, the department of educationdecided to get rid of it in its
allocations in 2024, because theyclaimed they were only getting

(19:42):
about 5% of this data from the HSC.
And somehow this admission that they areonly getting 5% of the data that they
needed to allocate resources properly.
Didn't seem to ruffle anybody's feathers.
Schools had been allocated resources with95% of HSE information completely missing.

(20:03):
There wasn't a single mumblefrom anyone about that.
As I said, when it came to 2024,the department of education
decided to drop that complex needsvariable from their algorithm.
They also dropped the gendervariable for obvious reasons,
which I won't distract you with.
So this meant that the sole variablethat would affect a school's allocation

(20:27):
was the scores children got instandardized literacy and numeracy tests.
These tests I should tellyou are an indirect result of
another Rory Quinn decision.
Back in 2011, Rory Quinn forcedschools to upload their literacy
and numeracy standardizedresults to a government database.
And at that time they werepromised they would only be

(20:49):
used for statistical purposes.
Fast forward, just over a decade.
They are now being used as one ofthe sole variables to give resources
to children with additional needs.
One might wonder.
Why that's a bad thing.
Literacy and numeracy scores.

(21:10):
Are a good indicator of.
The child's ability and theresourcing they should need.
But the thing is for anybody thathas, half an idea about working with
children, you don't even have tobe a teacher to know this literacy
and numeracy scores do not tellthe full story of a school's needs.
There are plenty of childrenwith huge needs that do fine.

(21:33):
And these tests on essentially, if youcan score well in a one-off annual test.
You're just going to be penalized for it.
So in the blink of an eyeor a flick of the pen.
Allocations for special educationin schools are now based on a
random, meaningless task, as wellas some random adjustments to ensure
schools don't fall off a Clair foron the other hand, get a big jump.

(21:57):
In short, the data is still based onabsolute junk and I'm no statistician,
but even the most gentle of scratching,the figures shows there is no
logic to the hours being allocatedto schools and thankfully people
on the ground didn't do nothing.
The big message that came throughfrom everyone was that the

(22:19):
dropping of the complex needsvariable needed to be reversed.
For woods people came outand said, this is wrong.
On this set of allocations debacle, as itbecame known as raged on and on, on the
department of education, tried everythingthey could to bury the ongoing protests

(22:39):
from parents, schools and advocacy groupsthrough spin and statistics and denial.
And when now none of that seemed tobe working and faced with a petition
from over 700 primary school principalsthrough the national principal's
forum, things took a baffling twist.
When a joint statement was releasedfrom the IPN, the NAPD, which is

(23:02):
the second level version of the YPN.
And.
The national parents canceled.
The statements that was released.
He states that through thecommentary about set allocations,
there have been a number of whatthey described as misconceptions.
I'm being careful not to nameany group in particular, for fear

(23:25):
of giving them any recognition.
The IPPF categorically stated.
It is important to be clear thatchildren with complex needs have not
been excluded from the allocationof hours at schools received.
The department of education, by the way,even admitted themselves, they dropped
complex needs as a criteria becausethey didn't get the data from the HSC.

(23:46):
So it was a rather bizarrestatement in the first place.
But the statement went on furtherto explain how they'd come to this
conclusion using frankly bafflinganalysis and language, including a
lovely word, which I have to quote.
Even if this, even if the actualstatement didn't really say much at
all, because it's such a bizarre word.

(24:07):
Given that the revised allocationsmodel is now underpinned by more
accurate data provided by schools.
It is hoped that the quantum of hoursallocated to schools will better
enable children with additionaland complex needs to achieve and
thrive in their mainstream settings.
Quantum.

(24:28):
So baffling, they actually use theword three times in their statements.
What in God's name is a quantum.
So for those of you don'tknow, I looked it up.
So a quantum is a word.
It usually using physics ratherthan teacher allocations on.
It's a weird word to use in astatement because it's not one

(24:52):
that an average person would use.
Nevermind.
Three times in the same statements.
And my favorite definition of quantum.
It was from the Cambridge dictionary.
Which is the smallest amount.
Or unit of something, especially energy.
It could probably define the IPP andrepresentation of its own members

(25:13):
in this case, the smallest amount orunit of something, especially energy.
Basically the IPN, try to pull thesame fast one that the department of
education tried a few days beforehandsaying that the revised allocations
model is now underpinned by moreaccurate data provided by schools.

(25:36):
Sadly.
Rather than backup the voices ofprincipals and parents, the IPN decided
to back the department of education.
And NCSC, and one has to wonder why.
Yes, they receive financialsupport from the department.
Perhaps that's a possibility.

(25:58):
I think it's best to leavethe question hanging.
But I will say this about the IPPF.
For the last few years.
The IPN has been sharing theirresearch on the wellbeing of
principals in a sustainability project.
In all areas of the research, itshows burnout, stress, sleeping,

(26:20):
troubles, depressive symptoms,somatic stress, and cognitive stress.
And they've all increased inprinciples from 2015 to 2222.
And all of the conclusion statethat it's getting worse every year.
I isn't it ironic that when 700 of theirmembers make a very public cry for help.

(26:44):
The response was to tellthem that they were wrong.
Just one more thing beforewe move on from this.
Have a quick look at the boardof directors of the NCSC.
Maybe you'll find the answerlies in there somewhere.
Okay.
Let's move on slightly because I wantto add one other variable to special

(27:07):
education provision in the last decade.
Some people might not realize thatthe supports that were being given
to children in 2007 were mainlyliteracy and numeracy supports.
Essentially, if you were a specialeducation teacher in 2007 or resource
teachers, they were known then.
90% of your work.
Was literacy and numeracy.

(27:29):
And these were theresource hours in general.
And the Alec general allocation model.
Anything around emotional behavioralneeds tended to be allocated to S NAS.
However these days, support teachersare now being used for anything from
anxiety, social skills, emotionalsupports, behavioral supports,
all sorts of sports that werebeing covered by SNS in the past.

(27:51):
In fact, it's become almostcomical if it wasn't so serious.
This is an example of what aspecial education teacher or a
teacher is supposed to do that anSNA is no longer allowed to do.
And here it is.
It's circulation at the moment onI think on Twitter, but it comes
from the SNA toolkit from 2022.
I just to highlight how mad things havebecome, and it's in the area of toileting.

(28:16):
Now, not that long ago, if achild had a toileting issue, they
will be eligible for SNA support.
No questions asked andas he probably acts.
And as you probably expect, thismeant that the SNA would try and
help the child independently usethe toilet without any issues.
I'm when this happens, the SNAwould no longer be required
and they could be redeployed.

(28:38):
However these days, it'snot as simple as that.
And as I said, the following is from theSNA toolkit, which again, I have shared
in the show notes, the link is there.
The SNA is now not allowed toprompt a child to use the toilet.
They're only allowed to deal with theaftermath of a toileting incidents.

(28:59):
And even then the SNA isn't allowed toprompt the child to wipe themselves.
They're also not allowed toarrange clothing after the toilet.
In fact, unless the toilet is outsidethe classroom, the SNA can't even
escort the child to the toilet.
Instead the class teacher or satteacher is responsible for a minding.
The child's use the toilet.

(29:19):
Where's the Ash as Google hasto prove exactly how often a
child's soils themselves over along period of time in order for
deployment to be in place at all.
And this may be where the comparisons tothose institutions I spoke about there.
A few minutes ago, ring.
True.
To me.

(29:39):
This is abuse.
It's own forgivable it's on it'sthere in black and white since 2022.
And that S and a toolkit.
To me, as I said, it's abusiveand unforgivable and I would
hazard a guess that we are lucky.
Really.
The people who work in schoolsare in general, more moral than

(30:01):
the people making the rules.
As I say, it's thesystems that are abusive.
The SNA toolkit is a good exampleof how crazy things have become.
And it has gone down the roadwhere I would say it is abusive.
I don't know if I canrepeat that word more.
More, more often than I am, but.

(30:21):
I can't think of another word for it.
Other than abuse.
Speaking of S and A's not only has therebeen a reduction in teaching supports
for children with additional needs.
It's also become much moredifficult for schools to apply
for SNA support if they need it.
Essentially, a school's allocationof fascinates has been frozen

(30:43):
since the 20 19 20 20 school year.
It's now called the front loading model.
I started on the board of directorsof the IPPF at the time, when we were
informed about these front load andmodels, I was going to come along.
And the era of resignation.
In the room when we were told aboutthis helps me make the decision to

(31:05):
leave the board almost immediately.
It was my first.
Board meeting.
I'm my only regret was.
I waited a few more months to step away.
Yeah.
I am the George Lee.
Of education, basically the NCSE frozethe allocation of SNS and primary

(31:26):
schools, as they try to figure outsome sort of random arbitrary algorithm
to allocate to schools rather than tochildren leaving the principal to make
choices of which children in the schoolwill receive supports which will not.
It's only four and a half yearslater, they have a new revised
model, which has already overcomplicated and over bureaucratic.

(31:47):
And the only way to compare it to whatit's been for the last four and a half
years is it's like someone who's beenpunching you really hard for four years.
And they decide to punchyou a little more gently.
Now.
But still punching him.
Naturally the IPP and have welcomed thenew model because the mantra still is

(32:08):
that those with the gracious need shouldhave the greatest amount of support.
Unless, of course you are a school stop.
You don't get any support at all.
And if you're a principal, don'tforget, you are merely just one quantum.
As you can see, despite it being veryobvious, the NCSE have been allowed to

(32:29):
reduce supports, and they've been ablysupported by those who are in power.
But what I want to really, to.
Is gash inside the doors of the N C S E.
And.
I want to give you.
An interesting statistic.

(32:50):
Off the 62.
Or so Surenos.
That were employed by the NCSC in 2021.
So just three years ago that therewas off the 62 and a bit of them.
31 of them.
I left the NCSE between 2021 and 2023.

(33:12):
Now, any organization thatloses half of their staff.
Within a couple of years.
Most raise questions.
And the reason I'm saying it now.
Is because I love to hear fromany of those 31 CNAs or even

(33:32):
the ones that didn't leave.
I want to know what happened to them.
Perhaps you're one of those former Nose orperhaps you're someone who's still in the
NCSC or outside of the NCSC that knows.
More than I do.
And as I said, I'd reallylike you to get in touch.

(33:57):
And I can assure youconfidentiality if necessary.
Because that's where I think wemight travel to in our next episode.
To the CNAs.
One of the only frontfacing elements of the NCSC.
And as of this time of this recording,I've already heard from two former CNAs.

(34:21):
Who've told me of the rot within.
Hopefully before we get to the nextepisode, some more will come forward.
And I'm hoping that I'll be able totell their stories, or maybe they'll
be able to tell them themselves.
In fact.
I might take a bit of a chance here.

(34:43):
I'm make a decision closer to the time.
Because I might give it another few weeks.
Just in case these people need.
To get advice of whetherit's safe enough to talk.
And I might talk about anotherscandal caused by the NCSE.
If I don't hear from enough people.
Hopefully one or two may be braveenough to tell their stories.

(35:07):
But I don't want to postpeople under pressure.
Because that's not faireither but we do know.
The same on, it's a famous saying thebad things happen when good people.
Do or say nothing.
The onshore dot Nash.
Podcasts is written andproduced by me, Simon Lewis.

(35:28):
If you'd like to hear more of mythoughts on primary education and
art, and you should subscribe to mymailing list on shot.net/subscribe.
And if you've enjoyed this podcast sofar, Please consider reviewing it on
your favorite podcast player as it willhelp other people find it more easily.
Until next time.
Thanks so much for listening.
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