January 20, 2025 • 55 mins
In this podcast episode, I interview Muireann Sadlier, the Director of Cyber Smarties Ireland, discussing the importance of keeping children safe online while teaching them to use the internet positively. Sadlier shares her extensive background in education, focusing on wellbeing and behaviour, and introduces Cyber Smarties, an app designed for primary schools that supports children's social skills and online safety.
We explore alarming statistics on children's online experiences, the challenges of managing screen time, and the need for proactive strategies to teach children responsible online behavior. Cyber Smarties offers a monitored environment for children to interact safely and learn positive social interactions. The discussion also touches on broader themes of technology's role in education and parenting, and the potential benefits of using apps like Cyber Smarties as part of a comprehensive approach to digital literacy and well-being.
You can find our more about Cyber Smarties Ireland here: https://cybersmarties.ie/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Simon (00:03):
Hello.
Hello.
You are very welcome to if I were theminister for education from onshaw.
net, this is Simon Lewis.
And first of all, a veryhappy new year to everyone.
I am very excited because my first.
podcast of 2025 is an interview.
I haven't done an interview for quitesome time, but I'm delighted to be
joined by Miren Sadlier, who is thedirector of Cyber Smarties Ireland.
(00:29):
And I'm going to let Miren introduceherself in a minute or two, but
for those of you who are interestedin keeping children Not only safe
online, but also to learn how touse the internet in a positive way.
And so on this is some, this isn'ta podcast you're going to want to
listen to because there's some reallyinteresting developments there.
And I'm hoping that I'll be ableto ask most of the questions that
(00:52):
most of us all have as parents andteachers and so on to Murren, but.
I think the best thing to do to start offwith is to let Mirren introduce herself.
You're very welcome to If I Werethe Minister for Education, Mirren.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me.
Not at all.
So as I always say to my guestswithout sounding like the first
question in an interview, whatcan you tell us about yourself?
(01:14):
A little bit about myself, I originallytrained as a teacher like most members
of my family, we were a teaching family,my parents and my siblings are teachers,
and I went to Mary I and completedmy degree in Mary I but I continued.
with my studies as I was reallyinterested in well being and
(01:36):
particularly in behavior and well being.
So I did a postgraduate course in St.
Patrick's Syndrome Chondra and it waseducation of children with ASDs and I
followed that with a postgraduate course.
Diploma in education in Mary I and thenI did a Masters in education, focusing
on communication and well being inchildren with special educational needs.
(01:59):
Particularly I worked withchildren who were non verbal.
So, a large part of my career has beenin education and I've spent 18 years
working in a special school in Limerick.
I had a couple of differentroles, I was acting principal.
Thank you.
I was acting deputy principal for afew years and I was seconded from, I
(02:21):
was seconded from the school to workwith SESS, which is a special education
support service for a few years.
And I did school support visitsaround behavior and wellbeing.
And then I worked for a while withNCSC and all this has led me to
really have a vested interest in.
What are we doing to supportthe well being needs of the
(02:43):
children in our schools?
And how can we best meet their needs?
And so this is a wonderful, reala new adventure in the area of
behaviour and well being in schools.
Fantastic.
So I suppose what we're going to betalking about, we'll definitely be
talking about cyber smarties Ireland,but in a more general sense, we're
going to be talking about technology.
(03:04):
It's one of my favoritethings to talk about.
It's my own background as mostpeople listening to this would know.
And I guess I was reading some of thereports that are being sent out around
digital technology and children, andevery year there's reports that come
out from different agencies, and theone that I was looking at this year,
(03:24):
which I thought we might start off with,it was a fact that jumped out at me,
was a stat, it was something like 95.
8 percent of children Aged 8 to12 feel anxiety or stress if the
Wi Fi is turned off in their home.
It was a kind of a it's a findingthat kind of jumped out at me as
I've been quite worrying in someways but also not surprising.
(03:46):
I suppose I wouldn't mind hearingyour thoughts on that, but also was
there any findings that you cameacross that might've surprised you?
Yeah, every year when the, thesereports are released, I find them
quite shocking and I read themevery single time more than once.
More than half of Irish childrenreported in 2024 that they know
(04:09):
they spend too much time online.
And 80 percent of parents inIreland reported that they don't
really know or feel confidentthat their child is safe online.
And those are amazing statistics aswell as that more than one in five
children under the age of six havetheir own smartphone, which is quite
worrying because not all deviceshave, filtration apps or Preventative
(04:35):
apps or parent monitoring apps.
And it can be difficult as well forsome parents to understand technology.
I'm one of those parents where sometimes Ineed advice on how something works or how
to download something or fix something.
But as we go towards the ageof eight years old with, recent
studies of children in Ireland.
(04:56):
So in the last 12 months in Ireland.
93 percent of 8 to 12 year olds, theyown their own device, whether it's
a smartphone or it's, I think it'ssmartphones plus tablets, but when
you're using smartphones or tablets,it can be difficult to ensure your
own child's safety or a child'ssafety in general, which is worrying.
(05:20):
A third of children.
Can say, have stated, more than a thirdof children have stated, that they do
game online with people they don't know.
And two thirds of children are,have reported in the last year, that
they were contacted by strangersduring gaming online or online.
(05:42):
With at least a quarter of childrenseeing something that they've
said, or that they categorized.
Thank you for your time.
distressing that they don't want todisclose to parents because I suppose
maybe they're nervous, maybe they'reafraid they'll get into trouble.
And a lot changed with technology since wehad the pandemic and since we had lockdown
(06:04):
and we now access people far and wide.
I never used even zoom before the,before lockdown, I never heard of it.
But what happened during lockdownis that it became apparent
through these research statistics.
The predatory activity focusingon Irish children increased
(06:26):
by 40 percent since lockdown.
And that is throughgaming and through chat.
But we do have children who livein rural areas and so gaming or
being in contact with children intheir class through devices, keeps
them in touch with one another.
So there'll be, differentsides to the story or different
(06:48):
ways of looking at things.
What can be worrying is that, I'd bethe parent and I'd be the teacher.
We, we don't know for sure.
That was always a thing thatworried me when it comes to
online safety for children.
Some of the statistics are frightening.
This is it.
And I'm I suppose I'm coming to youin this, not only as a teacher and a
(07:11):
principal and I suppose someone who'dbeen fairly well up in technology
and education, but I, but also asa parent, I have a 10 year old and.
So he fits right in the middleof those eight to 12 year olds.
And I know he's one of the 7 percentthat doesn't have a smart device.
And it's a constant, it's aconstant conversation where
between myself and my wife and himand why and all the rest of it.
(07:34):
And I suppose the thing is I'm petrifiedabout, The time, there will be a time
I will be giving my child a device ofsome sort whether it's a, an an iPad
or a tablet or a or even a smartphone.
And that balance.
Knowing that I'm essentially giving mychild potentially a weapon or without
(07:55):
overdramatizing it or by not doingso risk becoming a social pariah.
And I guess, I, what I'm asking islike, what would you say to parents
like me who, I would say I'm prettywell up, but I'm still petrified.
I think I'm all up.
I would have.
I would have been in that position morethan once with our own children, and I
(08:17):
really would not consider myself verytechnologically aware, or whether, I
don't feel I would have been very welleducated on technology at the time
when I had to make those decisions.
And I suppose, It seems to me that we'regoing towards times where communication
(08:39):
using devices seems to be inevitable.
Chat forums through gamingseems to be inevitable.
And, even Google Classroom areusing devices for education.
It seems to be inevitable thatchildren are going to be using devices.
And I'm so banning them, restrictingthem, holding it to a certain age.
(08:59):
Some parents will go andwill actually feel that's the
best thing for their child.
And every parent is the primaryeducator of their child.
They know what's best for their child.
But what I found What was conflictingfor me was that if I am that parent
who does not give my child a device inthird, fourth class, fifth class, sixth
(09:23):
class, they will probably end up gettinga device in first year or in the first
few years of secondary school, but theywill not have the skills prerequisite
to communicating using a device.
They will not have experience of.
What do I do if somebody says somethingthat I feel is inappropriate and I
just worry now with the inevitabilityof using devices, whether it could be
(09:49):
unfair not to give Children a chanceto learn really important interaction
skills and social skills if possible.
And that's where I found cybersmarties very interesting because it
is endorsed by on Garda she Akona.
And it's endorsed by UNICEFand another organization called
(10:13):
End Violence Against Children.
And that's because it is a, an app ora forum in which children can learn
how to interact in a positive way.
And also, They're safe andthey're monitored and they're not
accessible to the general public.
They're not accessible to any adult.
(10:34):
I would have used lots of differentparent control apps and, systems
on phones and old tablets, but mykids always found a way around it.
They seemed to be able to find a way.
To disable it or to move around itwith, I suppose with cyber smarties,
(10:55):
your child is guaranteed to besafe and to learn social skills.
So it makes it less stressful for parents.
And as well as that, they will be able toaccess a wellbeing report if they wish.
So they'll know about what'sgoing on with their child.
So let, before we get onto cybersmarties, just to because I, I.
(11:16):
I want to ask a couple of otherthings to you that might might
frame where we're going on this one.
I, I'm interested, they're, it may be,maybe it's just the people I surround
myself with, or maybe it's just whatyou hear in the media all the time is
that constant battle between screentime, like screen time has seemed to
be this enemy of the people of enemyof children until there's a pandemic
(11:36):
or even a snowstorm . And then everyoneneeds to be on screens all the time.
And in some ways I have this battle withmyself similar to what you're saying, that
I don't want to disadvantage children.
Yeah, or my own child, maybe, but I'mresponsible for over 400 children in my
school and I don't want to disadvantagethem because I know they're going to go
(11:57):
into a world where if they aren't usingtechnology and safely and that they're
going to be at a serious disadvantageto everybody else around them.
And I'm I, up until maybe, socialmedia came along, I would have been
in, I would have been a massive kindof advocate for letting children have
access to technology as much as possible.
(12:18):
But when social media becameso clever that it very quickly
introduced children to content thatI really didn't want them accessing.
So again, I'm talking about, what I'mhearing from other parents like that,
there seems to be that very quickly boysreceive, content that's quite misogynistic
(12:40):
and girls receive, information thatcan be, quite misogynistic, and and I,
again it's all these things balancingand I don't know where you stand.
And I'm probably asking you thesame question in a different way.
No, it's not the same questionat all because it's a discussion.
I meet with parent groups and I meet withschool staff and we have discussions.
And this question has come up.
Why are we giving screens to children?
(13:01):
too early or should we stayscreen free or can they not learn
skills without using screens?
But there's probablytwo sides to every coin.
Of course, balance is ideal andit's fantastic and it's very
important on so many levels.
But some children have social anxietyand difficulty socializing and being
(13:24):
able to contact others in a safe way.
Through a device can be quite helpful.
There's a lot of children inIreland on school refusal in
primary and secondary schools.
And it's only through devices thatthey can access their lessons or
that they can access their friends.
So it's actually supportingsocialization for some children and
supporting education for some children.
(13:46):
So I do understand though that somechildren will some families will
be worried about the amount of timethat children spend on screens.
And I accept that.
And I suppose as a parent, I'd say itwould be our own job to supervise that
or monitor that in some way taking intoaccount that parents are extremely busy.
(14:08):
Some parents work from home and theyhave to do zoom calls late in the
evening and all that kind of stuff.
But there's two different sides to it.
There's so much education online.
There's so much socializationand positive experiences and
positive interaction online.
And then we can equally accessall of that not online as well.
So there's no easy answer, butI suppose balance would be key.
(14:33):
Exactly.
I want to look at cyber smarties causeI, I want to try and, I suppose it's
very hard to do it on a podcast becausewe can't see it, but we'll do our best.
So, maybe we'll look into cyber smartiesand maybe tell us a little bit about
What it is at its most basic, and wecan delve deeper into it after that.
Absolutely.
(14:54):
So Cyber Smarties is an app that'sbeing used in primary schools in
Ireland and around the world, but we'lltalk about Cyber Smarties Ireland.
So it's an app that's being used to helpchildren to develop self awareness skills,
social skills friendship skills, and more.
And.
(15:14):
When, let's say you decide you're goingto sign up fourth class today, you would
allow the children to log in and to usethe app if you feel like it in school,
if you feel like it outside of school.
Some schools allow the childrento use it for 10 minutes a day and
(15:35):
different schools work differently.
But what it does is when Ilog in, if I'm the child.
It asks me, how am I today?
A little clear, but character does adaily wellbeing check in and the child
would say, I'm good or I'm only okay.
And when they click on those buttons,the data is collected cumulatively.
So over 183 days, if that child attendsschool 182 days now there's a significant
(16:02):
amount of self self initiated wellbeing.
material.
A lot of the wellbeing material we haveon children can be seen to be from the
outside assessments of observationsof this is the child saying this
is how I am today and this is why.
And it's broken down into so many levels.
(16:22):
So one would be psychologicaland mental health and wellbeing.
One would be social and friendshipskills, health and wellbeing.
One would be physiologicalor sensory health and being.
So that's one thing that happens.
Children are allowed to message theirfriends within the classroom setting.
So not anybody outsidethe classroom setting.
(16:43):
And so they can safelyinteract with one another.
And that's it.
That is monitored by a human monitoringstaff member, which is why it was endorsed
by the Garda SĂochána, because anyinappropriate attempts at using language,
there's a filtration system for language,so it won't allow abuse of language.
(17:04):
But if there was something thatwas deemed to be veiled intent that
would be picked up by the monitor.
So children are in an environmentwhere they won't be subject to
sustained negative interaction.
Or negative content.
There's beautiful littlevideos and cartoons.
They're all got to do with they're alllinked with well being and education.
(17:26):
And there's a little fun zone withmemes, cartoons, being and resilience
content, and gaming, which kids love.
And every single one of the gameshas been analysed by a team who have
linked it with the Irish curriculum.
So, if you decided to allow childrento use some of the games, you'll
(17:47):
be able to link it with the mathscurriculum because there's a document.
with every single game so the parentsand teachers will know which strands
and strand units of the mathematicscurriculum are accessed when the
child is playing pirate attack orwhatever game they choose to play.
What happens here with cyber smarties isbecause it's fully monitored and endorsed
(18:08):
by UNICEF and the guards because it'sfully monitored the children are safe.
There is no adult that cancommunicate with any child.
Not a parent, not a teacher, nobody.
And children learn interactionskills and self advocacy skills
as they go along using the app.
And what we've seen is, since September,in the schools in Munster, we've seen
(18:32):
that Negative psychological well beinghas decreased, so there's more positive
psychological well being, the datashows, through different data pockets.
And we can give that data to theschools, saying this is, these are
the statistics for this class, theseare the statistics for this child.
(18:54):
And what we found is a lot ofchildren who live in the country
continue to interact over theChristmas period with one another.
It's 8 or 9 o'clock at night, it's notaccessible when it's time to rest, and it
switches itself back on in the morning.
So if a child woke up and had a phonein their, under their pillow, they
(19:14):
wouldn't be able to use the app.
It promotes good sleep,health, and well being.
And the aim, short term, is to showchildren what it's like to communicate
with one another and to be let loose.
However, it's monitored so thingsare picked up and reported and there
(19:36):
can be corrective actions such as atemporary freeze or notifying you.
User 526 in fourth class has attemptedto say the following words to user X.
That will have been blocked,but you'll be made aware.
And then, of course, teachers haveasked what do we do if something tricky
emerges, and we have to deal with that.
(19:56):
We have so many resource materials thatare all linked with the Irish curriculum.
We have links with the SPHE curriculum.
We've written a lovely document linkedwith the Irish Digital Literacy Framework.
So, you can say, see in your planningor in your school improvement plan, or
if you were doing school self evaluationon well being, you will actually
(20:18):
have statistics to show improvement.
So, it's quite a, it's quitea revolutionary app, really.
Considering that it'ssafe is really important.
That was really important.
Yeah I'm just as I'm listening toyou because I suppose I'm trying to
learn a little bit as I go in my headthat it feels like, okay, we have
(20:39):
an inevitability that we're goingto be giving a child a smart device.
Now, I know some parents might listenand go, no, my child, I'm never going to
get them until they're 16 or whatever.
That's realistically, I thinkthere's almost like this.
16 is an important age because.
Yeah.
And if you've had no experience.
Not having the experience of knowing howto cope with and manage a lot of input or
(21:04):
communicative attempts, people attemptingto communicate with you, whether you want
to hear from them or not, or childrenbeing contacted by others in the other
class in fourth year or third year.
It does happen.
And, Yeah, I think it'salso unrealistic, isn't it?
That, that It's like I think we allhave, I think when, at every age, we
(21:25):
have a child who will say he won't bedoing this or she won't be doing this.
Their child is born, they won'tbe watching TV until, and then all
of a sudden, or they won't be x,y, or z, or whatever it might be.
The field of online safety and thediscussion of online safety, it can
be a difficult discussion becauseit's lovely to talk about children
interacting and learning skills.
(21:46):
I felt when I first becameinvolved with Cyber Smarties.
Maybe they don't have devicesin third and fourth class.
Maybe this is a chance for thosechildren to learn new skills, before
they'd even developed poor skills.
And I know through national studiesand international studies that
severe or abusive bullying in postprimary schools can be experienced
(22:10):
by up to one in five children.
And so, having had a chance to learnbetter through Etiquette or netiquette
could be quite valuable, and it'sdifficult to talk about predators,
but there are predators accessingchildren through gaming and chat.
And we don't for sure know who may havecontacted our children unless we can find
(22:35):
out or have a good discussion with them.
And it's not to fear monger, butthey're very important issues.
And there are.
post primary schools who areexperiencing, school refusal or
children engaging in self harm becauseof bullying and abuse through devices.
(22:56):
So having the discussion around Okay,we can ban devices, but at some point,
young people will access technologybecause it seems to be much more prevalent
than it was when I was in school.
Nobody had a mobile phone when I wasin school, and I'm so happy about that.
But in, internationally andin the world still, today.
(23:17):
And it's a horrible statistic, butinternationally in the world today
in 14 and 15 year olds, the leadingcause of death is self induced and
a lot of it is linked with bullying.
And so wising up and having thefrightening discussion, or Trying to
(23:39):
see what we can do to put children in aposition where maybe they have a more self
advocative role, or maybe they can learnmore resilience, compassion, and empathy.
And this is why I found it fascinatingand became involved, because I was
already Doing work that involved thatkind of material and delivering webinars
(24:03):
and seminars with the same goal.
But an app has a much further reach andit generalizes skills quite quickly.
I know that when the school subscribedand I met with staff, they were so nice
and supportive and had so many questions.
One was, how do we tellthem how to use it?
And I said, Oh, you just let themlog in because they will figure
(24:26):
the whole thing out really quickly.
And they, in order to have friends orto link with somebody in your class as
a child under the age of 12 in a primaryschool in Ireland, you have to send them
a compliment out of a list of compliments.
So it's like a friendrequest with the reason why.
And that's the beginning of producingan environment where A, children are
(24:47):
safe, but B, they are in a positionwhere they are exposed to ongoing
and sustained positive interaction.
It really has been making a differencein the schools that have subscribed.
The statistics show it.
So yeah, and not getting a phone fora long time, that will help for a
while, not, but it won't last forever.
(25:10):
And so where and when dowe teach these skills?
That's what I began to ask.
That's the thing that I'm thinking,that the phone or the device.
Is fine until you putnot fine things on it.
So if, and I think, and this is mehypothesizing a little bit here.
We have, a child is inevitably goingto get a device at some point, whatever
(25:32):
point the parent decides that is.
And inevitably the first thing thechild just wants to do is download.
And some of those apps will be,it will be let's say Snapchat
or whatever kicks, whatever kidsare using these days or discord.
And in some ways, what this is, it'sgiving them the same experience Of a
(25:52):
social platform, but with it almostlike a safety net to so so they can,
because children will inevitably, andthis is a complete, completely away from
technology, children are when they'redeveloping and as they're growing,
they're going to be experimenting withtheir behaviors and what they can, what
boundaries they can push, what or canI try this interaction and see where
(26:12):
this gets me, and if you do that on thelikes of Snapchat or Facebook or any of
those things, that's a permanent moment.
Thanks.
Possibly a permanent problem for you asthe child or the victim of whatever you've
done, let's say, whereas with this app,it sounds like you have almost a safety
net where you can, you could, you cantry whatever you want, but there's humans
(26:35):
safe, humans there to help you keep safe.
Would that be, is that, amI describing that fairly?
So, if I'm a child in fourth class,and I decide to send, you're a child
in fourth class, and I decide to sendyou a message saying you're stupid.
Hey, you are stupid.
I can type it out.
It will, the app will highlightthe word stupid and say, This
(26:56):
word may upset your friends.
Please find another word.
And so there's a negativeword filtration system.
And some kids find ways of attempting toget around that, which is human nature.
We are solution seeking creatures.
And this is really why it'simportant to have these chats.
(27:17):
So I might say your s space, t space,u space, so it may pop through then.
So the next thing that happens is thatthere's a human monitor, a person who
is paid to monitor the content daily.
And so that should bepicked up and flagged.
And other than that,now that will be done.
(27:39):
And that's why it's an endorsed app.
You also have the option to red flag thatmessage and a note goes to the monitor.
Simon has red flagged a message atfive to six on such a date and this
is the message sender and receiver.
Now, obviously we don't know thename of any child that's Not allowed
(28:00):
do so we have reference numbers.
So user five, two, so you can redflag a message and it will be picked
up, but the monitor will pick it up.
And so here's where we lookinto, of course, the first couple
of weeks kids try all sorts.
And so it's lively.
And we do say that to schools,of course they do, because
(28:23):
they're experimenting with it.
But this is the first app I'veever known where you're looking
at personal responsibility, alittle bit of accountability, and
awareness of the effects of onlinecontent or attempted messaging.
(28:43):
on another person.
And of course, if we havekids saying, no, I didn't.
You did.
Here's the screenshot, but accountabilityand personal responsibility are
vital social skills for us to learn.
And so it just doesn'thappen that a child.
Can be bullied or subjected toinappropriate content using the app.
(29:07):
It's a good chance for them to learnskills, both me learning skills about how
I comport myself, and maybe me learningto have the courage to red flag a message.
And I work with the monitors and wediscuss findings and There's sometimes
messages between user X and user Ysaying, I'd like to put a red flag on
(29:27):
it, but I'd be worried in case therehas to be a discussion around it.
I'm not sure what to do about it.
What do you think?
Those discussions are veryimportant discussions as well.
Those are social skills.
But if it seemed that it needed tobe flagged, of course, it's flagged.
And so what's happening is, Thesubscribing schools are finding maybe
we seem to be in need CPD on buildingself awareness or the mechanics
(29:52):
of social skills or something.
And then Cyber Smarties, we've developed abank of resources that are really helpful.
And we also have teacher courses.
So it's covered from every angle.
So I think it's a really good idea toconsider it and to look into it or to look
at the website or to look at the reportsor the white paper or to just become
(30:14):
aware of what it is and how it's working.
I'm amazed by the improvementsin the subscribing schools,
even in the last four months.
This is, sounding like a really,Interesting app that I think parents
will probably be thinking about ifthey're considering buying their child,
their first device and knowing that,their child is probably going to want
(30:37):
to socialize with their, with otherchildren that rather than saying you,
obviously you'll have to have parentalcontrols 'cause cyber Smartsheet is
are not going to stop children fromdownloading other social media apps.
But what I'm thinking of is this appmight mean that there's no need for
children to download some of the more,some of the less controlled apps.
(31:00):
Let's say the ones that are quite dathat can be potentially dangerous.
Would am I thinking alongthe right lines there?
Yes.
Exact.
Matter comes up when I meet withparent groups this question comes up.
So we subscribe, we, if we get ourchild a tablet and the school subscribes
and we are going to allow them touse Cyber Smarties, are they safe?
(31:21):
Yes, they're safe while they'reusing the Cyber Smarties app.
They can chat and game and watch videos.
However, if you're going to allowthem to download WhatsApp or to
play games on the PlayStation 5.
That's a totally different matter.
The safety of the children andthe age appropriateness of what
they're doing, that really hasto be thought about at home.
(31:44):
And so, we have, had discussions around ifthey want to send something inappropriate,
they can just say, Message me on WhatsApp.
If the child is under 12, probably,maybe they, it would be better if they
didn't have a WhatsApp account, orthey're not supposed to have social
media accounts under the age of 13.
But of course, I know parents arereally Busy and I was a parent who
(32:07):
downloaded parent controls on allthe devices and they do really help
I know that there are Ways of a childneeding you to give permission for
them to download a new app So I wouldhave had to approve the downloading of
a new app on my child's device But Iactually had to learn how to do that.
(32:29):
I had to be taught how to do that.
And then also be attentive to, ifI'm cooking the dinner and I'm busy
and they see that I get a phone call,and I'm busy with the phone call and
they start tapping me and saying,mom, I'm just sending permission.
This is just to say, no, wait,I'll research it and I'll see.
(32:50):
And so, yeah, they're protected.
In this place to gameand to message online.
And there's a post primary versionas well that's very fantastic, that's
called Hopoko, which is being launched.
But no, it's not going to, it's notgoing to generalize on, on, on a device.
It's an app that you can be guaranteedyour child is safe on, but if you're
(33:13):
going to allow them to use the Xbox,the PlayStation, or other manners
to communicate with one another Idon't know what they, I wouldn't
be able to say what they would do.
They wouldn't be protected.
Exactly.
Yeah, I think it's funny when you weresaying what your own kids were doing.
They always know when you're too busyto to be able to be concentrated.
How likely and then how difficultis it for me to get into their
(33:37):
device to delete the thing?
Or does that mean, because I thinkone time I'd given permission.
So it was just re downloadedafter I deleted it.
I wouldn't be as.
technologically aware as you,but I know that for me, it was
exhausting and tiring and not afun experience for me as a parent.
Quite a worrying thing.
(33:57):
And when they move on to social media andhave accounts, that's always a frightening
experience because you just don't know.
And I am aware that even whenmy kids weren't allowed to have
smartphones, they had the old phones.
Their best friend had asmartphone and they were looking
at content on that phone.
So it's quite it's quite anunmanageable feat for us as parents,
but there's only so much we can do.
(34:18):
We can be vigilant.
We can be aware of, filtration apps.
We can be aware of parentalcontrols, approving things,
physically managing devices.
Or looking into an applike Cyber Smarties.
Exactly.
It's just not the world wegrew up in at all anymore.
I know, and I'm it's funny because anotherthing I've noticed, and this is just a,
(34:38):
anecdotal more than anything else, is thatwhenever I've run, internet safety kind
of things for parents or, we try and talkto parents about smartphone use, because
all schools are, being asked to talk toparents about that and, you put words out.
It's funny, the only not, I'm notsaying absolutely 100 percent the
only parents, but the vast majorityof parents who attend these things
(35:00):
are parents who probably don't needto attend them or they're, not nobody,
everybody needs to, or they've alreadydecided you're not getting their kid
a phone or whatever it might be there.
And you're trying to get, I suppose whatyou're trying to do is get to parents
who are a little bit more, less savvyand don't know what their kids are doing.
And I think even to, it's, itsounds like there are the majority
(35:23):
of parents aren't going to be ableto prevent their child accessing.
A smart device, whether it's their ownchild's or their friends who has one.
Just impossible now.
It just feels impossible tomanage the situation now.
And there's some statisticsavailable with parents as well.
Yeah, I think I might'vereferenced it already, but.
(35:46):
This year, 80 percent of parents inIreland said they do not feel confident
that their child is always safe online.
And yet it's so hard to avoidthe online or the digital world.
I would have been the not at allsavvy parent and I found it, I
found I could never keep up orunderstand what I should do next.
(36:07):
And I don't think I've ever metwith a parent group or a parent
association where there wasn't a very.
It was a very we had parentsof very opposite opinions, no
phones, no screens, not needed.
They're going to get one inpost primary at some point.
They'll get confirmation money.
(36:27):
What happens if they justdon't have skills developed?
The discussion there's sucha variety of viewpoints.
But in the end, I just feel the childrenare accessing devices younger and younger.
And it's best to talk about it, regardlessof our views, regardless of our feelings
and our views and our fears, it's bestto have the difficult discussions.
(36:50):
Exactly.
So this whole campaign to keepchildhood smartphone free or
whatever it's called at the moment.
That seems to from what I'm hearing, itseems to be one of these things of just
pushing a tin down the road or kickinga tin down the road for an inevitable
It's just pushing it down the road.
And the idea of giving themskills is what's, is what
we're really talking about.
(37:10):
And I know that there's a lotof talks about smartphone free.
and not using, devices at all.
But then we run into the post primarygroup who run into significant
difficulty in first and second yearbecause there seems to be, there's
a lot of children reporting, Idon't know how to manage the online
situation, the messages I'm getting.
(37:31):
The pictures that you're putting upof me, videos being shared about me.
I don't know that's goingto solve the problem.
It'll temporarily pause it.
And I know when we talk about, going backto my behavior management background.
When it comes to managing a behavior,you can put some actions into place that
will temporarily suppress a behavior.
(37:54):
So, I don't give them, I've got, let'ssay I have four kids in primary school.
I'm a parent, I will not give thema smartphone, I will not give them
a device, and I will not condoneaccess to the online world in my home.
I mightn't have Wi Fi.
Okay.
That's absolutely acceptable.
Anybody can choose to parenthow they wish to parent.
(38:14):
What skills will those children have whenthey do access the online world, when it
comes to resilience and self advocacy?
I just feel like when we talk in theyears I've talked about behavior.
You will only suppress it temporarily.
Yes, you don't it's very difficult tototally extinguish your behavior, but
you can suppress something But we're bestputting rather than reactive strategies
(38:42):
putting proactive strategies in placeGiving children a chance to develop skills
Because confiscating phones in schools,there's never been a higher time, rate
of purchase of secondhand phones online.
So you got to learn the phoneand the phone you hand up.
And I would have donethe same as a teenager.
Of course I would have wanted, I'll do it.
(39:02):
And I'd probably have been selling them.
Anyway, we'd have done agood business there together.
It's not.
It's not that, it's not as preventative.
It's temporarily preventative.
Yeah I noticed, when COVID and theworld shut down, that This the, when
children didn't go to school for, abouta year and a half, there were certain
(39:24):
things they didn't get to try out thatwas, that were like age appropriate.
I hate that term, but do you know andnatural human interactions that you
try when you're five or you try whenyou're eight and you're seeing some
of those things happening, 12 yearolds doing things that you try at 10.
Or eight year olds doing things that theyshould have been doing maybe at six that
just don't fit with their age anymore.
Like . And maybe there's a connectionthere, that if you don't give the children
(39:48):
the chance to do risky things, let's say.
. On in a in a risk free place.
. Then if they get a.
When will that reemerge?
Because it does reemerge at some point.
I know that, yeah, it's part of normalsocialization and human development.
I know a newborn interprets theworld first through their senses,
(40:08):
but very quickly, a young baby,a very young baby will socialize.
We want to make our needs knownand we want to interact with others
from the very beginning of ourlife and interacting using devices
is a huge and globally acceptablenow, but the safety of Children is.
(40:29):
It's a constant discussion.
And I suppose for me, I was justdelighted to become involved in with
cyber smarties because I'd always workedwith education and special education
and behavior and wellbeing, and Ithought, what about everybody else?
Because I love my work and I alwaysenjoyed it, and I always will.
(40:51):
But what about everybody else?
How do we keep them socializing?
Teach them how to be resilient, empathic,advocate for themselves, form opinions
learn, probably through an adverseexperience, learn how to take personal
responsibility when we have misbehaved.
(41:11):
We've all misbehaved.
said and done thingsyou shouldn't have done.
It's, shaming and blaming and isolatingis not the best way to go about
business if we're if we're dealing witha developing and learning child, but
experiencing things, being accountable,being responsible and learning a better
way of managing that skill, that'swhat really intrigued me about the app.
(41:32):
I've watched children becomemore empathic and more.
Compassionate towards one another, andI've seen, I've, with, I've had meetings
with the monitor, sounds funny to saythe human monitor, but I've had meetings
with the monitor, and the reportswould, the reports generally involve
the children are checking in more onone another, but they're also saying,
(41:55):
I can't believe XYZ sent me a request.
They're being so nice to me.
I have more friends than I thought.
And that is really music to my earsbecause involvement, community,
a sense of belonging, acceptance.
Not just fitting in, but having a senseof belonging and ownership over our
(42:18):
future behavior is really important.
So I think, I suppose the CyberSmarties app and the post primary
Hopoko version give young people achance, the best chance to be in an
online place where they're safe, wherethey can, Interact, and they do get
support and, corrective action whenthings aren't going so well as well.
(42:40):
It's not about isolating, excluding.
This happened on this date, it'snot so nice, we might address
it and then we try again.
It's just, so far it's been lovelyand I've really enjoyed the work.
And I do feel as a parent,I wish that this existed.
15 years ago, I'd say, I reallywould have loved it might have
(43:00):
it might have helped a lot.
Like I do like how it does it forces,children to say something nice about
the person they were, they want tointeract with and that's seen by, and
it starts things off in a positive way.
And I almost forgot to say, youreminded me there, Simon, one of
the most frequently used buttonson the Cyber Smarties app is a
little button called cheer me up.
And when you press the cheer me upbutton, if you're a subscribing child,
(43:25):
the nice comments that other childrenhave made about you come onto your screen.
So if you're having a down day andI said, I want to be your friend
because you're a good listener.
And somebody else said, Iwant to be your friend because
you're really good at sports.
Somebody else says, I want to be yourfriend because you're a funny guy.
Those comments come up.
So I know that.
(43:46):
Families report they've pressed thecheer me up button, is that bad?
No, it's great.
Remind yourself why people like you,this is what we want in CyberSmarties.
That's a really nice idea.
It's just such a nice idea.
Yeah, absolutely.
So look, I, we've actually beenspeaking for quite some time.
I could talk more about it.
I can talk for three days.
Fantastic.
I can do three days.
(44:06):
And I've really, it's really made methink a lot even about my own parenting
and about, as a, as an education,because this is a conversation that
schools are going to be having a lotthis year as, the I don't know if she'll
be the minister for very much longer,but it seems to be in a crusade of
Norma Foley's to tackle smartphones.
But I feel that she's may, I've alwaysbelieved she may have been shooting in the
(44:27):
wrong direction, really, in a way that.
The target really isn't the actualdevice, it's what's on the device.
And this has really made me thinka little bit more about how what,
rather than trying to kick the tindown the road, that we should be
tackling, what an inevitability ofthis generation and probably the past
generation, which we may have messedup by not doing anything sooner.
(44:48):
But we but I think that's somethingthat, we will have to think about.
The first reaction you had tothe smartphone free or whatever,
strategies they might, you'd havebeen selling and, secondhand phones
and I would have had a burner phone.
So there's ways around those and whatwe're aiming at is teaching skills,
(45:09):
but I suppose this just is a chance todo things a little more differently.
It's forward thinking, it's safe,it's, young children have a much
more plastic brain than you or I.
As fabulous as we are,they're more suggestible.
They'll form new neuroplastic patternsin their thinking where they expect to
(45:31):
be spoken to nicely, learn to advocatefor themselves if they're not, and become
used to receiving and giving complimentsand Accessing content that's educational,
but it's focused on well being.
And that's a really importantidea, I think, really.
Absolutely, I think so.
So, I always ask my guests onthe podcast what they would do.
(45:52):
If they were the Minister forEducation, you've basically
got one thing that you can do.
It doesn't have to be related tointernet safety, it doesn't have
to be related to social media, itdoesn't have anything like that.
But if you could change onething about the primary education
system, what would it be?
I feel it would be linked with well beingand behavior because that has been an area
(46:14):
of interest for me for so, so, so long.
And the one thing I've alwaysfound difficult was pinpointing
and assessing well being becauseit's such a difficult thing to do.
So I would recommend that.
an app like Cyber Smarties be used evenjust for a period of time so that you
can assess well being when you receivethe well being reports in your school.
(46:38):
And I, that really would be focusedon the, the needs and the rights
of children in primary education.
But I also feel it would be niceto address well being for the
OWL teachers and SNAs as well,because it is an exhausting role.
It's a multifaceted role.
You're wearing lots of different hats.
(47:00):
To do the job well, we have to careabout those who are in our caseload
and that can be stressful as well.
So if I was a minister and I could.
Wave a magic wand, it would bewell being for all, somehow, with
a measurable way of understanding.
Are we helping you there, theteachers to do your job better,
the SNAs to do their job better.
(47:21):
Being assessment for childrenWould be the magic wand.
I'd like to wave very good.
It's been absolutely fantastictalking to you, Maren.
If people are interested inaccessing more about cyber smart
cities, Ireland, would you?
What's the best way forthem to get into contact?
You can get in touch by going,excuse me, looking into the website.
It's www.
cybersmarties.
(47:43):
ie.
You could email marin at cybersmarties.
ie.
You'll find a contact email anda contact phone number on the
website, but essentially www.
cybersmarties.
ie and don't hesitate as a parentor as a school staff member to reach
out and ask any question, however,big or small, and we'd be more
(48:04):
than happy to help out in any way.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much, Mirren.
It's been an absolutepleasure talking to you.
Thanks for listening to me.
It's been a joy.
Thank you.
And I hope you've enjoyed thisinterview between myself and
Murren from Cyprus Marci's Arland.
I came into this interview,really wearing two hats.
(48:24):
One as a teacher who has, is, has aninterest in educational technology and
a background in educational technology.
But also as a parent of a child.
Who is eventually probably going tobe given as smart as they probably
will be given a smart device.
I'm still holding on.
I'm one of the 7% that wasmentioned earlier that hasn't.
(48:44):
Given my child a smart vice I'm so scared.
Of what could happen.
But this conversation has put me in,It gives me some questions to consider,
my child hasn't engaged in any socialmedia or social experience online.
And am I putting him at a disadvantage?
He's not allowed to charge.
When he's playing games,he's in a, barely got a game.
(49:08):
Game he on he, he plays super Mario.
And Minecraft Bush, there's nokind of interactions that out and
he doesn't even want to do that.
There's no kind of pressureon me, in that regard.
But I'm I putting them undera disadvantage when you
know, most of his classmates.
Are chatting away.
Online.
And learning how to chat.
Or are they learning how totrash, is anyone helping them?
(49:30):
I'm asking those two questions,is it, I'm what I'm seeing is what
marina and cyber smarter kids doesis it provides this platform which
gives the children the opportunity.
To learn how to engage in social media.
So in a way, in a sense, I'm after thequestion of, am I doing the right Tang by.
Having no social media engagement.
(49:50):
And trying to teach them in our ownway about how you socialize while
online, by my own social mediainteractions and talking to them
about who I'm talking to online andhow I'm talking to people online.
Modeling respectfulengagements and things of that.
But again, he doesn't seeany of that dizzy and so on.
So there's a lot of, a lot ofquestions I have to ask myself.
I'm not.
And.
(50:11):
What is the bond?
Is it is.
Is it better?
That he has that idea that he caninteract with his peers in a sort of
a walled garden where there is no.
Danger of predators.
That's a.
And outsiders.
And the fact that.
It's filtered verystrongly and by a human.
And so on so that if anythingdoes go wrong, that there's
(50:33):
lessons that can be learned.
So, it's a question I'm askingbecause the other side of this.
Is the other option.
There's two other options.
One is we continue with thisbanning of smart devices.
Until children are a certain age.
And, I'm not quite sure.
That's.
That's a possible, like at themoment, I don't think there's
(50:54):
any parent in the country.
That doesn't know that it's, buying asmart device for their child is a good
idea, but yet 93% of parents have done it.
Simply how do you get from 93% ofparents buying their eight year olds?
And devices to it being illegal.
I think there's, it's a question.
I'm not saying that's not a good option.
(51:15):
I think it, it is possible.
I Ave to go.
But I think the last option.
So the third option is tocontinue doing nothing.
Which is what we've been doingfor the last number of years.
I know there's a few.
Little voluntary schemes, which Idon't think really have any impact.
If we're going to.
Make it illegal or do something like that.
That has to come from anational a national strategy.
(51:36):
It has to come from the socialmedia companies themselves.
I know Australia have said I'vegiven social media companies a year.
And to ensure dash undersixteens, don't use social media.
It's an interesting experiment.
I think people will be watchinghow that kind of works out.
Social media companies, I imagine.
And I'm not saying this.
I think their goal is to makeas much money as possible.
(51:57):
And I would say a huge chunk of theirmoney comes from advertising to children.
If I lash my son, play a game on myphone, every minute and ad comes up
on the screen because I, we don't, hedoesn't, if he plays one of those free
games, it's ODS every few minutes andit's trying to sell them another game
or trying to sell them a, that kind ofthing it's usually seems to be selling,
or if he's watching something on YouTube.
(52:18):
Every few minutes, there's anodd trying to sell something so
I can imagine if you cut off.
Advertising or socialmedia for under sixteens.
That's going to take a huge chunkof income from these social media
companies, but for the greater good, isthat something that we should be doing?
So.
It's a lot of questions I haveleft from this conversation.
I've really, it's really made me think,and I'm still thinking as I'm, as I,
(52:43):
A few days after talking to marina.
As I'm recording this conclusion and.
I am.
Drawn.
Slightly towards what she's tryingto, what's trying to be achieved.
Do we need like a D inevitablypeople will use social media?
I don't think socialmedia is going to go away.
I don't think how useit is going to go away.
A.
It's human interaction after all, butit's human interaction behind a veil.
(53:06):
And, depending on the socialmedia platform, that can be very
toxic or it can be very useful.
So it's like comparingTwitter or X at the moment.
It's very toxic because of the anonymous.
Sort of nature because of the the lackof any filter in of any hate speech
and any hate speech that happens tendsnot to get picked up on or monitored.
That kind of thing, or it could besomething like a positive place.
(53:30):
Like an understanding Dennis isparticularly positive, but I'm picking
LinkedIn as an example where youaren't anonymous, you are yourself and
conversations tend to be professional and.
I think a lot of people.
If we look at the way people use.
Social media.
As adults.
If it's LinkedIn.
At getting jobs, a lot of peoplegot jobs off LinkedIn, which
(53:52):
is a social media platform.
A lot of people now.
Start relationships throughsocial medias platforms like
dating apps and things like that.
And do we need to prepare our children?
For that future?
I'm.
Part of me is thinking.
We maybe we should do we usea safe platform, like cyber
(54:12):
smarter kids to do that.
Maybe we should.
Or do we teach lessons in theory?
I don't know.
I'm, we always say that it'sbetter to do things practically.
So I don't know.
I don't know.
I'm as I say, I'm leftwith those three questions.
Do we either go down the road of banning?
Do we go there into the road of education?
Or do we go down the road of doingnothing and seeing what happens?
(54:34):
So they're just my thoughts.
I'm really pleased.
I finally got to talk to Marie and Ithink this is a conversation that we
need to keep talking about all the time.
And if you aren't talking about itin your own school, I think it's
something you definitely should dobecause by doing nothing, I think
we could be going down difficultpaths because we don't have control.
(54:54):
Over.
What happens?
In most children's homes at north Chaudry.
For the majority of the day, but wedo have to face the impact of what
can happen and because of socialmedia use and smartphone use as well.
So there's all my thoughts.
As I said, thank youvery much for listening.
Thanks so much to Murren Saudia fromcyber smarter kids for talking to me.
(55:16):
I really enjoyed itand I hope you did too.
And I'll be back again verysoon with another podcast.
All the very best.
Bye-bye.
Hello.
Hello.
You are very welcome to if I were theminister for education from onshaw.
net, this is Simon Lewis.
And first of all, a veryhappy new year to everyone.
I am very excited because my first.
podcast of 2025 is an interview.
I haven't done an interview for quitesome time, but I'm delighted to be
joined by Miren Sadlier, who is thedirector of Cyber Smarties Ireland.
(00:29):
And I'm going to let Miren introduceherself in a minute or two, but
for those of you who are interestedin keeping children Not only safe
online, but also to learn how touse the internet in a positive way.
And so on this is some, this isn'ta podcast you're going to want to
listen to because there's some reallyinteresting developments there.
And I'm hoping that I'll be ableto ask most of the questions that
(00:52):
most of us all have as parents andteachers and so on to Murren, but.
I think the best thing to do to start offwith is to let Mirren introduce herself.
You're very welcome to If I Werethe Minister for Education, Mirren.
Thank you very much.
Thank you for having me.
Not at all.
So as I always say to my guestswithout sounding like the first
question in an interview, whatcan you tell us about yourself?
(01:14):
A little bit about myself, I originallytrained as a teacher like most members
of my family, we were a teaching family,my parents and my siblings are teachers,
and I went to Mary I and completedmy degree in Mary I but I continued.
with my studies as I was reallyinterested in well being and
(01:36):
particularly in behavior and well being.
So I did a postgraduate course in St.
Patrick's Syndrome Chondra and it waseducation of children with ASDs and I
followed that with a postgraduate course.
Diploma in education in Mary I and thenI did a Masters in education, focusing
on communication and well being inchildren with special educational needs.
(01:59):
Particularly I worked withchildren who were non verbal.
So, a large part of my career has beenin education and I've spent 18 years
working in a special school in Limerick.
I had a couple of differentroles, I was acting principal.
Thank you.
I was acting deputy principal for afew years and I was seconded from, I
(02:21):
was seconded from the school to workwith SESS, which is a special education
support service for a few years.
And I did school support visitsaround behavior and wellbeing.
And then I worked for a while withNCSC and all this has led me to
really have a vested interest in.
What are we doing to supportthe well being needs of the
(02:43):
children in our schools?
And how can we best meet their needs?
And so this is a wonderful, reala new adventure in the area of
behaviour and well being in schools.
Fantastic.
So I suppose what we're going to betalking about, we'll definitely be
talking about cyber smarties Ireland,but in a more general sense, we're
going to be talking about technology.
(03:04):
It's one of my favoritethings to talk about.
It's my own background as mostpeople listening to this would know.
And I guess I was reading some of thereports that are being sent out around
digital technology and children, andevery year there's reports that come
out from different agencies, and theone that I was looking at this year,
(03:24):
which I thought we might start off with,it was a fact that jumped out at me,
was a stat, it was something like 95.
8 percent of children Aged 8 to12 feel anxiety or stress if the
Wi Fi is turned off in their home.
It was a kind of a it's a findingthat kind of jumped out at me as
I've been quite worrying in someways but also not surprising.
(03:46):
I suppose I wouldn't mind hearingyour thoughts on that, but also was
there any findings that you cameacross that might've surprised you?
Yeah, every year when the, thesereports are released, I find them
quite shocking and I read themevery single time more than once.
More than half of Irish childrenreported in 2024 that they know
(04:09):
they spend too much time online.
And 80 percent of parents inIreland reported that they don't
really know or feel confidentthat their child is safe online.
And those are amazing statistics aswell as that more than one in five
children under the age of six havetheir own smartphone, which is quite
worrying because not all deviceshave, filtration apps or Preventative
(04:35):
apps or parent monitoring apps.
And it can be difficult as well forsome parents to understand technology.
I'm one of those parents where sometimes Ineed advice on how something works or how
to download something or fix something.
But as we go towards the ageof eight years old with, recent
studies of children in Ireland.
(04:56):
So in the last 12 months in Ireland.
93 percent of 8 to 12 year olds, theyown their own device, whether it's
a smartphone or it's, I think it'ssmartphones plus tablets, but when
you're using smartphones or tablets,it can be difficult to ensure your
own child's safety or a child'ssafety in general, which is worrying.
(05:20):
A third of children.
Can say, have stated, more than a thirdof children have stated, that they do
game online with people they don't know.
And two thirds of children are,have reported in the last year, that
they were contacted by strangersduring gaming online or online.
(05:42):
With at least a quarter of childrenseeing something that they've
said, or that they categorized.
Thank you for your time.
distressing that they don't want todisclose to parents because I suppose
maybe they're nervous, maybe they'reafraid they'll get into trouble.
And a lot changed with technology since wehad the pandemic and since we had lockdown
(06:04):
and we now access people far and wide.
I never used even zoom before the,before lockdown, I never heard of it.
But what happened during lockdownis that it became apparent
through these research statistics.
The predatory activity focusingon Irish children increased
(06:26):
by 40 percent since lockdown.
And that is throughgaming and through chat.
But we do have children who livein rural areas and so gaming or
being in contact with children intheir class through devices, keeps
them in touch with one another.
So there'll be, differentsides to the story or different
(06:48):
ways of looking at things.
What can be worrying is that, I'd bethe parent and I'd be the teacher.
We, we don't know for sure.
That was always a thing thatworried me when it comes to
online safety for children.
Some of the statistics are frightening.
This is it.
And I'm I suppose I'm coming to youin this, not only as a teacher and a
(07:11):
principal and I suppose someone who'dbeen fairly well up in technology
and education, but I, but also asa parent, I have a 10 year old and.
So he fits right in the middleof those eight to 12 year olds.
And I know he's one of the 7 percentthat doesn't have a smart device.
And it's a constant, it's aconstant conversation where
between myself and my wife and himand why and all the rest of it.
(07:34):
And I suppose the thing is I'm petrifiedabout, The time, there will be a time
I will be giving my child a device ofsome sort whether it's a, an an iPad
or a tablet or a or even a smartphone.
And that balance.
Knowing that I'm essentially giving mychild potentially a weapon or without
(07:55):
overdramatizing it or by not doingso risk becoming a social pariah.
And I guess, I, what I'm asking islike, what would you say to parents
like me who, I would say I'm prettywell up, but I'm still petrified.
I think I'm all up.
I would have.
I would have been in that position morethan once with our own children, and I
(08:17):
really would not consider myself verytechnologically aware, or whether, I
don't feel I would have been very welleducated on technology at the time
when I had to make those decisions.
And I suppose, It seems to me that we'regoing towards times where communication
(08:39):
using devices seems to be inevitable.
Chat forums through gamingseems to be inevitable.
And, even Google Classroom areusing devices for education.
It seems to be inevitable thatchildren are going to be using devices.
And I'm so banning them, restrictingthem, holding it to a certain age.
(08:59):
Some parents will go andwill actually feel that's the
best thing for their child.
And every parent is the primaryeducator of their child.
They know what's best for their child.
But what I found What was conflictingfor me was that if I am that parent
who does not give my child a device inthird, fourth class, fifth class, sixth
(09:23):
class, they will probably end up gettinga device in first year or in the first
few years of secondary school, but theywill not have the skills prerequisite
to communicating using a device.
They will not have experience of.
What do I do if somebody says somethingthat I feel is inappropriate and I
just worry now with the inevitabilityof using devices, whether it could be
(09:49):
unfair not to give Children a chanceto learn really important interaction
skills and social skills if possible.
And that's where I found cybersmarties very interesting because it
is endorsed by on Garda she Akona.
And it's endorsed by UNICEFand another organization called
(10:13):
End Violence Against Children.
And that's because it is a, an app ora forum in which children can learn
how to interact in a positive way.
And also, They're safe andthey're monitored and they're not
accessible to the general public.
They're not accessible to any adult.
(10:34):
I would have used lots of differentparent control apps and, systems
on phones and old tablets, but mykids always found a way around it.
They seemed to be able to find a way.
To disable it or to move around itwith, I suppose with cyber smarties,
(10:55):
your child is guaranteed to besafe and to learn social skills.
So it makes it less stressful for parents.
And as well as that, they will be able toaccess a wellbeing report if they wish.
So they'll know about what'sgoing on with their child.
So let, before we get onto cybersmarties, just to because I, I.
(11:16):
I want to ask a couple of otherthings to you that might might
frame where we're going on this one.
I, I'm interested, they're, it may be,maybe it's just the people I surround
myself with, or maybe it's just whatyou hear in the media all the time is
that constant battle between screentime, like screen time has seemed to
be this enemy of the people of enemyof children until there's a pandemic
(11:36):
or even a snowstorm . And then everyoneneeds to be on screens all the time.
And in some ways I have this battle withmyself similar to what you're saying, that
I don't want to disadvantage children.
Yeah, or my own child, maybe, but I'mresponsible for over 400 children in my
school and I don't want to disadvantagethem because I know they're going to go
(11:57):
into a world where if they aren't usingtechnology and safely and that they're
going to be at a serious disadvantageto everybody else around them.
And I'm I, up until maybe, socialmedia came along, I would have been
in, I would have been a massive kindof advocate for letting children have
access to technology as much as possible.
(12:18):
But when social media becameso clever that it very quickly
introduced children to content thatI really didn't want them accessing.
So again, I'm talking about, what I'mhearing from other parents like that,
there seems to be that very quickly boysreceive, content that's quite misogynistic
(12:40):
and girls receive, information thatcan be, quite misogynistic, and and I,
again it's all these things balancingand I don't know where you stand.
And I'm probably asking you thesame question in a different way.
No, it's not the same questionat all because it's a discussion.
I meet with parent groups and I meet withschool staff and we have discussions.
And this question has come up.
Why are we giving screens to children?
(13:01):
too early or should we stayscreen free or can they not learn
skills without using screens?
But there's probablytwo sides to every coin.
Of course, balance is ideal andit's fantastic and it's very
important on so many levels.
But some children have social anxietyand difficulty socializing and being
(13:24):
able to contact others in a safe way.
Through a device can be quite helpful.
There's a lot of children inIreland on school refusal in
primary and secondary schools.
And it's only through devices thatthey can access their lessons or
that they can access their friends.
So it's actually supportingsocialization for some children and
supporting education for some children.
(13:46):
So I do understand though that somechildren will some families will
be worried about the amount of timethat children spend on screens.
And I accept that.
And I suppose as a parent, I'd say itwould be our own job to supervise that
or monitor that in some way taking intoaccount that parents are extremely busy.
(14:08):
Some parents work from home and theyhave to do zoom calls late in the
evening and all that kind of stuff.
But there's two different sides to it.
There's so much education online.
There's so much socializationand positive experiences and
positive interaction online.
And then we can equally accessall of that not online as well.
So there's no easy answer, butI suppose balance would be key.
(14:33):
Exactly.
I want to look at cyber smarties causeI, I want to try and, I suppose it's
very hard to do it on a podcast becausewe can't see it, but we'll do our best.
So, maybe we'll look into cyber smartiesand maybe tell us a little bit about
What it is at its most basic, and wecan delve deeper into it after that.
Absolutely.
(14:54):
So Cyber Smarties is an app that'sbeing used in primary schools in
Ireland and around the world, but we'lltalk about Cyber Smarties Ireland.
So it's an app that's being used to helpchildren to develop self awareness skills,
social skills friendship skills, and more.
And.
(15:14):
When, let's say you decide you're goingto sign up fourth class today, you would
allow the children to log in and to usethe app if you feel like it in school,
if you feel like it outside of school.
Some schools allow the childrento use it for 10 minutes a day and
(15:35):
different schools work differently.
But what it does is when Ilog in, if I'm the child.
It asks me, how am I today?
A little clear, but character does adaily wellbeing check in and the child
would say, I'm good or I'm only okay.
And when they click on those buttons,the data is collected cumulatively.
So over 183 days, if that child attendsschool 182 days now there's a significant
(16:02):
amount of self self initiated wellbeing.
material.
A lot of the wellbeing material we haveon children can be seen to be from the
outside assessments of observationsof this is the child saying this
is how I am today and this is why.
And it's broken down into so many levels.
(16:22):
So one would be psychologicaland mental health and wellbeing.
One would be social and friendshipskills, health and wellbeing.
One would be physiologicalor sensory health and being.
So that's one thing that happens.
Children are allowed to message theirfriends within the classroom setting.
So not anybody outsidethe classroom setting.
(16:43):
And so they can safelyinteract with one another.
And that's it.
That is monitored by a human monitoringstaff member, which is why it was endorsed
by the Garda SĂochána, because anyinappropriate attempts at using language,
there's a filtration system for language,so it won't allow abuse of language.
(17:04):
But if there was something thatwas deemed to be veiled intent that
would be picked up by the monitor.
So children are in an environmentwhere they won't be subject to
sustained negative interaction.
Or negative content.
There's beautiful littlevideos and cartoons.
They're all got to do with they're alllinked with well being and education.
(17:26):
And there's a little fun zone withmemes, cartoons, being and resilience
content, and gaming, which kids love.
And every single one of the gameshas been analysed by a team who have
linked it with the Irish curriculum.
So, if you decided to allow childrento use some of the games, you'll
(17:47):
be able to link it with the mathscurriculum because there's a document.
with every single game so the parentsand teachers will know which strands
and strand units of the mathematicscurriculum are accessed when the
child is playing pirate attack orwhatever game they choose to play.
What happens here with cyber smarties isbecause it's fully monitored and endorsed
(18:08):
by UNICEF and the guards because it'sfully monitored the children are safe.
There is no adult that cancommunicate with any child.
Not a parent, not a teacher, nobody.
And children learn interactionskills and self advocacy skills
as they go along using the app.
And what we've seen is, since September,in the schools in Munster, we've seen
(18:32):
that Negative psychological well beinghas decreased, so there's more positive
psychological well being, the datashows, through different data pockets.
And we can give that data to theschools, saying this is, these are
the statistics for this class, theseare the statistics for this child.
(18:54):
And what we found is a lot ofchildren who live in the country
continue to interact over theChristmas period with one another.
It's 8 or 9 o'clock at night, it's notaccessible when it's time to rest, and it
switches itself back on in the morning.
So if a child woke up and had a phonein their, under their pillow, they
(19:14):
wouldn't be able to use the app.
It promotes good sleep,health, and well being.
And the aim, short term, is to showchildren what it's like to communicate
with one another and to be let loose.
However, it's monitored so thingsare picked up and reported and there
(19:36):
can be corrective actions such as atemporary freeze or notifying you.
User 526 in fourth class has attemptedto say the following words to user X.
That will have been blocked,but you'll be made aware.
And then, of course, teachers haveasked what do we do if something tricky
emerges, and we have to deal with that.
(19:56):
We have so many resource materials thatare all linked with the Irish curriculum.
We have links with the SPHE curriculum.
We've written a lovely document linkedwith the Irish Digital Literacy Framework.
So, you can say, see in your planningor in your school improvement plan, or
if you were doing school self evaluationon well being, you will actually
(20:18):
have statistics to show improvement.
So, it's quite a, it's quitea revolutionary app, really.
Considering that it'ssafe is really important.
That was really important.
Yeah I'm just as I'm listening toyou because I suppose I'm trying to
learn a little bit as I go in my headthat it feels like, okay, we have
(20:39):
an inevitability that we're goingto be giving a child a smart device.
Now, I know some parents might listenand go, no, my child, I'm never going to
get them until they're 16 or whatever.
That's realistically, I thinkthere's almost like this.
16 is an important age because.
Yeah.
And if you've had no experience.
Not having the experience of knowing howto cope with and manage a lot of input or
(21:04):
communicative attempts, people attemptingto communicate with you, whether you want
to hear from them or not, or childrenbeing contacted by others in the other
class in fourth year or third year.
It does happen.
And, Yeah, I think it'salso unrealistic, isn't it?
That, that It's like I think we allhave, I think when, at every age, we
(21:25):
have a child who will say he won't bedoing this or she won't be doing this.
Their child is born, they won'tbe watching TV until, and then all
of a sudden, or they won't be x,y, or z, or whatever it might be.
The field of online safety and thediscussion of online safety, it can
be a difficult discussion becauseit's lovely to talk about children
interacting and learning skills.
(21:46):
I felt when I first becameinvolved with Cyber Smarties.
Maybe they don't have devicesin third and fourth class.
Maybe this is a chance for thosechildren to learn new skills, before
they'd even developed poor skills.
And I know through national studiesand international studies that
severe or abusive bullying in postprimary schools can be experienced
(22:10):
by up to one in five children.
And so, having had a chance to learnbetter through Etiquette or netiquette
could be quite valuable, and it'sdifficult to talk about predators,
but there are predators accessingchildren through gaming and chat.
And we don't for sure know who may havecontacted our children unless we can find
(22:35):
out or have a good discussion with them.
And it's not to fear monger, butthey're very important issues.
And there are.
post primary schools who areexperiencing, school refusal or
children engaging in self harm becauseof bullying and abuse through devices.
(22:56):
So having the discussion around Okay,we can ban devices, but at some point,
young people will access technologybecause it seems to be much more prevalent
than it was when I was in school.
Nobody had a mobile phone when I wasin school, and I'm so happy about that.
But in, internationally andin the world still, today.
(23:17):
And it's a horrible statistic, butinternationally in the world today
in 14 and 15 year olds, the leadingcause of death is self induced and
a lot of it is linked with bullying.
And so wising up and having thefrightening discussion, or Trying to
(23:39):
see what we can do to put children in aposition where maybe they have a more self
advocative role, or maybe they can learnmore resilience, compassion, and empathy.
And this is why I found it fascinatingand became involved, because I was
already Doing work that involved thatkind of material and delivering webinars
(24:03):
and seminars with the same goal.
But an app has a much further reach andit generalizes skills quite quickly.
I know that when the school subscribedand I met with staff, they were so nice
and supportive and had so many questions.
One was, how do we tellthem how to use it?
And I said, Oh, you just let themlog in because they will figure
(24:26):
the whole thing out really quickly.
And they, in order to have friends orto link with somebody in your class as
a child under the age of 12 in a primaryschool in Ireland, you have to send them
a compliment out of a list of compliments.
So it's like a friendrequest with the reason why.
And that's the beginning of producingan environment where A, children are
(24:47):
safe, but B, they are in a positionwhere they are exposed to ongoing
and sustained positive interaction.
It really has been making a differencein the schools that have subscribed.
The statistics show it.
So yeah, and not getting a phone fora long time, that will help for a
while, not, but it won't last forever.
(25:10):
And so where and when dowe teach these skills?
That's what I began to ask.
That's the thing that I'm thinking,that the phone or the device.
Is fine until you putnot fine things on it.
So if, and I think, and this is mehypothesizing a little bit here.
We have, a child is inevitably goingto get a device at some point, whatever
(25:32):
point the parent decides that is.
And inevitably the first thing thechild just wants to do is download.
And some of those apps will be,it will be let's say Snapchat
or whatever kicks, whatever kidsare using these days or discord.
And in some ways, what this is, it'sgiving them the same experience Of a
(25:52):
social platform, but with it almostlike a safety net to so so they can,
because children will inevitably, andthis is a complete, completely away from
technology, children are when they'redeveloping and as they're growing,
they're going to be experimenting withtheir behaviors and what they can, what
boundaries they can push, what or canI try this interaction and see where
(26:12):
this gets me, and if you do that on thelikes of Snapchat or Facebook or any of
those things, that's a permanent moment.
Thanks.
Possibly a permanent problem for you asthe child or the victim of whatever you've
done, let's say, whereas with this app,it sounds like you have almost a safety
net where you can, you could, you cantry whatever you want, but there's humans
(26:35):
safe, humans there to help you keep safe.
Would that be, is that, amI describing that fairly?
So, if I'm a child in fourth class,and I decide to send, you're a child
in fourth class, and I decide to sendyou a message saying you're stupid.
Hey, you are stupid.
I can type it out.
It will, the app will highlightthe word stupid and say, This
(26:56):
word may upset your friends.
Please find another word.
And so there's a negativeword filtration system.
And some kids find ways of attempting toget around that, which is human nature.
We are solution seeking creatures.
And this is really why it'simportant to have these chats.
(27:17):
So I might say your s space, t space,u space, so it may pop through then.
So the next thing that happens is thatthere's a human monitor, a person who
is paid to monitor the content daily.
And so that should bepicked up and flagged.
And other than that,now that will be done.
(27:39):
And that's why it's an endorsed app.
You also have the option to red flag thatmessage and a note goes to the monitor.
Simon has red flagged a message atfive to six on such a date and this
is the message sender and receiver.
Now, obviously we don't know thename of any child that's Not allowed
(28:00):
do so we have reference numbers.
So user five, two, so you can redflag a message and it will be picked
up, but the monitor will pick it up.
And so here's where we lookinto, of course, the first couple
of weeks kids try all sorts.
And so it's lively.
And we do say that to schools,of course they do, because
(28:23):
they're experimenting with it.
But this is the first app I'veever known where you're looking
at personal responsibility, alittle bit of accountability, and
awareness of the effects of onlinecontent or attempted messaging.
(28:43):
on another person.
And of course, if we havekids saying, no, I didn't.
You did.
Here's the screenshot, but accountabilityand personal responsibility are
vital social skills for us to learn.
And so it just doesn'thappen that a child.
Can be bullied or subjected toinappropriate content using the app.
(29:07):
It's a good chance for them to learnskills, both me learning skills about how
I comport myself, and maybe me learningto have the courage to red flag a message.
And I work with the monitors and wediscuss findings and There's sometimes
messages between user X and user Ysaying, I'd like to put a red flag on
(29:27):
it, but I'd be worried in case therehas to be a discussion around it.
I'm not sure what to do about it.
What do you think?
Those discussions are veryimportant discussions as well.
Those are social skills.
But if it seemed that it needed tobe flagged, of course, it's flagged.
And so what's happening is, Thesubscribing schools are finding maybe
we seem to be in need CPD on buildingself awareness or the mechanics
(29:52):
of social skills or something.
And then Cyber Smarties, we've developed abank of resources that are really helpful.
And we also have teacher courses.
So it's covered from every angle.
So I think it's a really good idea toconsider it and to look into it or to look
at the website or to look at the reportsor the white paper or to just become
(30:14):
aware of what it is and how it's working.
I'm amazed by the improvementsin the subscribing schools,
even in the last four months.
This is, sounding like a really,Interesting app that I think parents
will probably be thinking about ifthey're considering buying their child,
their first device and knowing that,their child is probably going to want
(30:37):
to socialize with their, with otherchildren that rather than saying you,
obviously you'll have to have parentalcontrols 'cause cyber Smartsheet is
are not going to stop children fromdownloading other social media apps.
But what I'm thinking of is this appmight mean that there's no need for
children to download some of the more,some of the less controlled apps.
(31:00):
Let's say the ones that are quite dathat can be potentially dangerous.
Would am I thinking alongthe right lines there?
Yes.
Exact.
Matter comes up when I meet withparent groups this question comes up.
So we subscribe, we, if we get ourchild a tablet and the school subscribes
and we are going to allow them touse Cyber Smarties, are they safe?
(31:21):
Yes, they're safe while they'reusing the Cyber Smarties app.
They can chat and game and watch videos.
However, if you're going to allowthem to download WhatsApp or to
play games on the PlayStation 5.
That's a totally different matter.
The safety of the children andthe age appropriateness of what
they're doing, that really hasto be thought about at home.
(31:44):
And so, we have, had discussions around ifthey want to send something inappropriate,
they can just say, Message me on WhatsApp.
If the child is under 12, probably,maybe they, it would be better if they
didn't have a WhatsApp account, orthey're not supposed to have social
media accounts under the age of 13.
But of course, I know parents arereally Busy and I was a parent who
(32:07):
downloaded parent controls on allthe devices and they do really help
I know that there are Ways of a childneeding you to give permission for
them to download a new app So I wouldhave had to approve the downloading of
a new app on my child's device But Iactually had to learn how to do that.
(32:29):
I had to be taught how to do that.
And then also be attentive to, ifI'm cooking the dinner and I'm busy
and they see that I get a phone call,and I'm busy with the phone call and
they start tapping me and saying,mom, I'm just sending permission.
This is just to say, no, wait,I'll research it and I'll see.
(32:50):
And so, yeah, they're protected.
In this place to gameand to message online.
And there's a post primary versionas well that's very fantastic, that's
called Hopoko, which is being launched.
But no, it's not going to, it's notgoing to generalize on, on, on a device.
It's an app that you can be guaranteedyour child is safe on, but if you're
(33:13):
going to allow them to use the Xbox,the PlayStation, or other manners
to communicate with one another Idon't know what they, I wouldn't
be able to say what they would do.
They wouldn't be protected.
Exactly.
Yeah, I think it's funny when you weresaying what your own kids were doing.
They always know when you're too busyto to be able to be concentrated.
How likely and then how difficultis it for me to get into their
(33:37):
device to delete the thing?
Or does that mean, because I thinkone time I'd given permission.
So it was just re downloadedafter I deleted it.
I wouldn't be as.
technologically aware as you,but I know that for me, it was
exhausting and tiring and not afun experience for me as a parent.
Quite a worrying thing.
(33:57):
And when they move on to social media andhave accounts, that's always a frightening
experience because you just don't know.
And I am aware that even whenmy kids weren't allowed to have
smartphones, they had the old phones.
Their best friend had asmartphone and they were looking
at content on that phone.
So it's quite it's quite anunmanageable feat for us as parents,
but there's only so much we can do.
(34:18):
We can be vigilant.
We can be aware of, filtration apps.
We can be aware of parentalcontrols, approving things,
physically managing devices.
Or looking into an applike Cyber Smarties.
Exactly.
It's just not the world wegrew up in at all anymore.
I know, and I'm it's funny because anotherthing I've noticed, and this is just a,
(34:38):
anecdotal more than anything else, is thatwhenever I've run, internet safety kind
of things for parents or, we try and talkto parents about smartphone use, because
all schools are, being asked to talk toparents about that and, you put words out.
It's funny, the only not, I'm notsaying absolutely 100 percent the
only parents, but the vast majorityof parents who attend these things
(35:00):
are parents who probably don't needto attend them or they're, not nobody,
everybody needs to, or they've alreadydecided you're not getting their kid
a phone or whatever it might be there.
And you're trying to get, I suppose whatyou're trying to do is get to parents
who are a little bit more, less savvyand don't know what their kids are doing.
And I think even to, it's, itsounds like there are the majority
(35:23):
of parents aren't going to be ableto prevent their child accessing.
A smart device, whether it's their ownchild's or their friends who has one.
Just impossible now.
It just feels impossible tomanage the situation now.
And there's some statisticsavailable with parents as well.
Yeah, I think I might'vereferenced it already, but.
(35:46):
This year, 80 percent of parents inIreland said they do not feel confident
that their child is always safe online.
And yet it's so hard to avoidthe online or the digital world.
I would have been the not at allsavvy parent and I found it, I
found I could never keep up orunderstand what I should do next.
(36:07):
And I don't think I've ever metwith a parent group or a parent
association where there wasn't a very.
It was a very we had parentsof very opposite opinions, no
phones, no screens, not needed.
They're going to get one inpost primary at some point.
They'll get confirmation money.
(36:27):
What happens if they justdon't have skills developed?
The discussion there's sucha variety of viewpoints.
But in the end, I just feel the childrenare accessing devices younger and younger.
And it's best to talk about it, regardlessof our views, regardless of our feelings
and our views and our fears, it's bestto have the difficult discussions.
(36:50):
Exactly.
So this whole campaign to keepchildhood smartphone free or
whatever it's called at the moment.
That seems to from what I'm hearing, itseems to be one of these things of just
pushing a tin down the road or kickinga tin down the road for an inevitable
It's just pushing it down the road.
And the idea of giving themskills is what's, is what
we're really talking about.
(37:10):
And I know that there's a lotof talks about smartphone free.
and not using, devices at all.
But then we run into the post primarygroup who run into significant
difficulty in first and second yearbecause there seems to be, there's
a lot of children reporting, Idon't know how to manage the online
situation, the messages I'm getting.
(37:31):
The pictures that you're putting upof me, videos being shared about me.
I don't know that's goingto solve the problem.
It'll temporarily pause it.
And I know when we talk about, going backto my behavior management background.
When it comes to managing a behavior,you can put some actions into place that
will temporarily suppress a behavior.
(37:54):
So, I don't give them, I've got, let'ssay I have four kids in primary school.
I'm a parent, I will not give thema smartphone, I will not give them
a device, and I will not condoneaccess to the online world in my home.
I mightn't have Wi Fi.
Okay.
That's absolutely acceptable.
Anybody can choose to parenthow they wish to parent.
(38:14):
What skills will those children have whenthey do access the online world, when it
comes to resilience and self advocacy?
I just feel like when we talk in theyears I've talked about behavior.
You will only suppress it temporarily.
Yes, you don't it's very difficult tototally extinguish your behavior, but
you can suppress something But we're bestputting rather than reactive strategies
(38:42):
putting proactive strategies in placeGiving children a chance to develop skills
Because confiscating phones in schools,there's never been a higher time, rate
of purchase of secondhand phones online.
So you got to learn the phoneand the phone you hand up.
And I would have donethe same as a teenager.
Of course I would have wanted, I'll do it.
(39:02):
And I'd probably have been selling them.
Anyway, we'd have done agood business there together.
It's not.
It's not that, it's not as preventative.
It's temporarily preventative.
Yeah I noticed, when COVID and theworld shut down, that This the, when
children didn't go to school for, abouta year and a half, there were certain
(39:24):
things they didn't get to try out thatwas, that were like age appropriate.
I hate that term, but do you know andnatural human interactions that you
try when you're five or you try whenyou're eight and you're seeing some
of those things happening, 12 yearolds doing things that you try at 10.
Or eight year olds doing things that theyshould have been doing maybe at six that
just don't fit with their age anymore.
Like . And maybe there's a connectionthere, that if you don't give the children
(39:48):
the chance to do risky things, let's say.
. On in a in a risk free place.
. Then if they get a.
When will that reemerge?
Because it does reemerge at some point.
I know that, yeah, it's part of normalsocialization and human development.
I know a newborn interprets theworld first through their senses,
(40:08):
but very quickly, a young baby,a very young baby will socialize.
We want to make our needs knownand we want to interact with others
from the very beginning of ourlife and interacting using devices
is a huge and globally acceptablenow, but the safety of Children is.
(40:29):
It's a constant discussion.
And I suppose for me, I was justdelighted to become involved in with
cyber smarties because I'd always workedwith education and special education
and behavior and wellbeing, and Ithought, what about everybody else?
Because I love my work and I alwaysenjoyed it, and I always will.
(40:51):
But what about everybody else?
How do we keep them socializing?
Teach them how to be resilient, empathic,advocate for themselves, form opinions
learn, probably through an adverseexperience, learn how to take personal
responsibility when we have misbehaved.
(41:11):
We've all misbehaved.
said and done thingsyou shouldn't have done.
It's, shaming and blaming and isolatingis not the best way to go about
business if we're if we're dealing witha developing and learning child, but
experiencing things, being accountable,being responsible and learning a better
way of managing that skill, that'swhat really intrigued me about the app.
(41:32):
I've watched children becomemore empathic and more.
Compassionate towards one another, andI've seen, I've, with, I've had meetings
with the monitor, sounds funny to saythe human monitor, but I've had meetings
with the monitor, and the reportswould, the reports generally involve
the children are checking in more onone another, but they're also saying,
(41:55):
I can't believe XYZ sent me a request.
They're being so nice to me.
I have more friends than I thought.
And that is really music to my earsbecause involvement, community,
a sense of belonging, acceptance.
Not just fitting in, but having a senseof belonging and ownership over our
(42:18):
future behavior is really important.
So I think, I suppose the CyberSmarties app and the post primary
Hopoko version give young people achance, the best chance to be in an
online place where they're safe, wherethey can, Interact, and they do get
support and, corrective action whenthings aren't going so well as well.
(42:40):
It's not about isolating, excluding.
This happened on this date, it'snot so nice, we might address
it and then we try again.
It's just, so far it's been lovelyand I've really enjoyed the work.
And I do feel as a parent,I wish that this existed.
15 years ago, I'd say, I reallywould have loved it might have
(43:00):
it might have helped a lot.
Like I do like how it does it forces,children to say something nice about
the person they were, they want tointeract with and that's seen by, and
it starts things off in a positive way.
And I almost forgot to say, youreminded me there, Simon, one of
the most frequently used buttonson the Cyber Smarties app is a
little button called cheer me up.
And when you press the cheer me upbutton, if you're a subscribing child,
(43:25):
the nice comments that other childrenhave made about you come onto your screen.
So if you're having a down day andI said, I want to be your friend
because you're a good listener.
And somebody else said, Iwant to be your friend because
you're really good at sports.
Somebody else says, I want to be yourfriend because you're a funny guy.
Those comments come up.
So I know that.
(43:46):
Families report they've pressed thecheer me up button, is that bad?
No, it's great.
Remind yourself why people like you,this is what we want in CyberSmarties.
That's a really nice idea.
It's just such a nice idea.
Yeah, absolutely.
So look, I, we've actually beenspeaking for quite some time.
I could talk more about it.
I can talk for three days.
Fantastic.
I can do three days.
(44:06):
And I've really, it's really made methink a lot even about my own parenting
and about, as a, as an education,because this is a conversation that
schools are going to be having a lotthis year as, the I don't know if she'll
be the minister for very much longer,but it seems to be in a crusade of
Norma Foley's to tackle smartphones.
But I feel that she's may, I've alwaysbelieved she may have been shooting in the
(44:27):
wrong direction, really, in a way that.
The target really isn't the actualdevice, it's what's on the device.
And this has really made me thinka little bit more about how what,
rather than trying to kick the tindown the road, that we should be
tackling, what an inevitability ofthis generation and probably the past
generation, which we may have messedup by not doing anything sooner.
(44:48):
But we but I think that's somethingthat, we will have to think about.
The first reaction you had tothe smartphone free or whatever,
strategies they might, you'd havebeen selling and, secondhand phones
and I would have had a burner phone.
So there's ways around those and whatwe're aiming at is teaching skills,
(45:09):
but I suppose this just is a chance todo things a little more differently.
It's forward thinking, it's safe,it's, young children have a much
more plastic brain than you or I.
As fabulous as we are,they're more suggestible.
They'll form new neuroplastic patternsin their thinking where they expect to
(45:31):
be spoken to nicely, learn to advocatefor themselves if they're not, and become
used to receiving and giving complimentsand Accessing content that's educational,
but it's focused on well being.
And that's a really importantidea, I think, really.
Absolutely, I think so.
So, I always ask my guests onthe podcast what they would do.
(45:52):
If they were the Minister forEducation, you've basically
got one thing that you can do.
It doesn't have to be related tointernet safety, it doesn't have
to be related to social media, itdoesn't have anything like that.
But if you could change onething about the primary education
system, what would it be?
I feel it would be linked with well beingand behavior because that has been an area
(46:14):
of interest for me for so, so, so long.
And the one thing I've alwaysfound difficult was pinpointing
and assessing well being becauseit's such a difficult thing to do.
So I would recommend that.
an app like Cyber Smarties be used evenjust for a period of time so that you
can assess well being when you receivethe well being reports in your school.
(46:38):
And I, that really would be focusedon the, the needs and the rights
of children in primary education.
But I also feel it would be niceto address well being for the
OWL teachers and SNAs as well,because it is an exhausting role.
It's a multifaceted role.
You're wearing lots of different hats.
(47:00):
To do the job well, we have to careabout those who are in our caseload
and that can be stressful as well.
So if I was a minister and I could.
Wave a magic wand, it would bewell being for all, somehow, with
a measurable way of understanding.
Are we helping you there, theteachers to do your job better,
the SNAs to do their job better.
(47:21):
Being assessment for childrenWould be the magic wand.
I'd like to wave very good.
It's been absolutely fantastictalking to you, Maren.
If people are interested inaccessing more about cyber smart
cities, Ireland, would you?
What's the best way forthem to get into contact?
You can get in touch by going,excuse me, looking into the website.
It's www.
cybersmarties.
(47:43):
ie.
You could email marin at cybersmarties.
ie.
You'll find a contact email anda contact phone number on the
website, but essentially www.
cybersmarties.
ie and don't hesitate as a parentor as a school staff member to reach
out and ask any question, however,big or small, and we'd be more
(48:04):
than happy to help out in any way.
Fantastic.
Thank you so much, Mirren.
It's been an absolutepleasure talking to you.
Thanks for listening to me.
It's been a joy.
Thank you.
And I hope you've enjoyed thisinterview between myself and
Murren from Cyprus Marci's Arland.
I came into this interview,really wearing two hats.
(48:24):
One as a teacher who has, is, has aninterest in educational technology and
a background in educational technology.
But also as a parent of a child.
Who is eventually probably going tobe given as smart as they probably
will be given a smart device.
I'm still holding on.
I'm one of the 7% that wasmentioned earlier that hasn't.
(48:44):
Given my child a smart vice I'm so scared.
Of what could happen.
But this conversation has put me in,It gives me some questions to consider,
my child hasn't engaged in any socialmedia or social experience online.
And am I putting him at a disadvantage?
He's not allowed to charge.
When he's playing games,he's in a, barely got a game.
(49:08):
Game he on he, he plays super Mario.
And Minecraft Bush, there's nokind of interactions that out and
he doesn't even want to do that.
There's no kind of pressureon me, in that regard.
But I'm I putting them undera disadvantage when you
know, most of his classmates.
Are chatting away.
Online.
And learning how to chat.
Or are they learning how totrash, is anyone helping them?
(49:30):
I'm asking those two questions,is it, I'm what I'm seeing is what
marina and cyber smarter kids doesis it provides this platform which
gives the children the opportunity.
To learn how to engage in social media.
So in a way, in a sense, I'm after thequestion of, am I doing the right Tang by.
Having no social media engagement.
(49:50):
And trying to teach them in our ownway about how you socialize while
online, by my own social mediainteractions and talking to them
about who I'm talking to online andhow I'm talking to people online.
Modeling respectfulengagements and things of that.
But again, he doesn't seeany of that dizzy and so on.
So there's a lot of, a lot ofquestions I have to ask myself.
I'm not.
And.
(50:11):
What is the bond?
Is it is.
Is it better?
That he has that idea that he caninteract with his peers in a sort of
a walled garden where there is no.
Danger of predators.
That's a.
And outsiders.
And the fact that.
It's filtered verystrongly and by a human.
And so on so that if anythingdoes go wrong, that there's
(50:33):
lessons that can be learned.
So, it's a question I'm askingbecause the other side of this.
Is the other option.
There's two other options.
One is we continue with thisbanning of smart devices.
Until children are a certain age.
And, I'm not quite sure.
That's.
That's a possible, like at themoment, I don't think there's
(50:54):
any parent in the country.
That doesn't know that it's, buying asmart device for their child is a good
idea, but yet 93% of parents have done it.
Simply how do you get from 93% ofparents buying their eight year olds?
And devices to it being illegal.
I think there's, it's a question.
I'm not saying that's not a good option.
(51:15):
I think it, it is possible.
I Ave to go.
But I think the last option.
So the third option is tocontinue doing nothing.
Which is what we've been doingfor the last number of years.
I know there's a few.
Little voluntary schemes, which Idon't think really have any impact.
If we're going to.
Make it illegal or do something like that.
That has to come from anational a national strategy.
(51:36):
It has to come from the socialmedia companies themselves.
I know Australia have said I'vegiven social media companies a year.
And to ensure dash undersixteens, don't use social media.
It's an interesting experiment.
I think people will be watchinghow that kind of works out.
Social media companies, I imagine.
And I'm not saying this.
I think their goal is to makeas much money as possible.
(51:57):
And I would say a huge chunk of theirmoney comes from advertising to children.
If I lash my son, play a game on myphone, every minute and ad comes up
on the screen because I, we don't, hedoesn't, if he plays one of those free
games, it's ODS every few minutes andit's trying to sell them another game
or trying to sell them a, that kind ofthing it's usually seems to be selling,
or if he's watching something on YouTube.
(52:18):
Every few minutes, there's anodd trying to sell something so
I can imagine if you cut off.
Advertising or socialmedia for under sixteens.
That's going to take a huge chunkof income from these social media
companies, but for the greater good, isthat something that we should be doing?
So.
It's a lot of questions I haveleft from this conversation.
I've really, it's really made me think,and I'm still thinking as I'm, as I,
(52:43):
A few days after talking to marina.
As I'm recording this conclusion and.
I am.
Drawn.
Slightly towards what she's tryingto, what's trying to be achieved.
Do we need like a D inevitablypeople will use social media?
I don't think socialmedia is going to go away.
I don't think how useit is going to go away.
A.
It's human interaction after all, butit's human interaction behind a veil.
(53:06):
And, depending on the socialmedia platform, that can be very
toxic or it can be very useful.
So it's like comparingTwitter or X at the moment.
It's very toxic because of the anonymous.
Sort of nature because of the the lackof any filter in of any hate speech
and any hate speech that happens tendsnot to get picked up on or monitored.
That kind of thing, or it could besomething like a positive place.
(53:30):
Like an understanding Dennis isparticularly positive, but I'm picking
LinkedIn as an example where youaren't anonymous, you are yourself and
conversations tend to be professional and.
I think a lot of people.
If we look at the way people use.
Social media.
As adults.
If it's LinkedIn.
At getting jobs, a lot of peoplegot jobs off LinkedIn, which
(53:52):
is a social media platform.
A lot of people now.
Start relationships throughsocial medias platforms like
dating apps and things like that.
And do we need to prepare our children?
For that future?
I'm.
Part of me is thinking.
We maybe we should do we usea safe platform, like cyber
(54:12):
smarter kids to do that.
Maybe we should.
Or do we teach lessons in theory?
I don't know.
I'm, we always say that it'sbetter to do things practically.
So I don't know.
I don't know.
I'm as I say, I'm leftwith those three questions.
Do we either go down the road of banning?
Do we go there into the road of education?
Or do we go down the road of doingnothing and seeing what happens?
(54:34):
So they're just my thoughts.
I'm really pleased.
I finally got to talk to Marie and Ithink this is a conversation that we
need to keep talking about all the time.
And if you aren't talking about itin your own school, I think it's
something you definitely should dobecause by doing nothing, I think
we could be going down difficultpaths because we don't have control.
(54:54):
Over.
What happens?
In most children's homes at north Chaudry.
For the majority of the day, but wedo have to face the impact of what
can happen and because of socialmedia use and smartphone use as well.
So there's all my thoughts.
As I said, thank youvery much for listening.
Thanks so much to Murren Saudia fromcyber smarter kids for talking to me.
(55:16):
I really enjoyed itand I hope you did too.
And I'll be back again verysoon with another podcast.
All the very best.
Bye-bye.
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