March 3, 2025 • 33 mins
Rob Barnett is the co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Modern Classrooms Project, a really interesting project which, at its core, tries to use technology for better human interaction and relationships in the classroom. Rob is a hugely impressive educator as you will hear in this episode but you can also watch him at this TEDx talk.
Rob has also written a book, Meet Every Learners' Needs and has developed a very interesting tool called Insta-Lesson. I'd recommend you look at both!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hello, Hello, you are very welcome to ifI were the minister for education from on
shot dot net, a regular podcast where Idive into the world of primary education
in Ireland and let you know what I woulddo if I were the minister for education.
This is Simon Lewis speaking.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to my fortnightly
(00:25):
newsletter, where I go through some ofthe news from Irish primary education
and beyond from my own perspective.
And I also give some hints and tips fromthe classroom, some technology tips and
other bonus materials that's at onshaw.
net slash subscribe.
On this week's show, I am delighted tobe interviewing a man called Rob Barnett.
(00:49):
And while you will be very interestedin hearing what he has to say, is he's
come up with this really interestingway to use technology in the classroom.
And in a way that I'm going to describeto you is like having over 20 teachers
in the classroom who are all you.
It's a really interesting concept andhe's built a platform around it, which
(01:13):
I hope you'll enjoy listening about.
He's also developed a couple ofother tools and he's written a book.
He is a busy man indeed.
Rob Barnett is the co founder andchief product officer of Modern
Classrooms Project and I thinkyou'll really enjoy hearing from him.
If you'd like to hear more from himas well here I'll have all of his
(01:35):
links at the end of the show notesas well as one of his TEDx talks
which is a really Good place to learnto start by getting to know him.
But I'm very lucky thatI have him with me now.
And I'm delighted to introduce Rob toif I were the minister for education.
, Simon (01:52):
Rob, you're very welcome to If I Were the Minister for Education.
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
And I think I should also say yes, Iam the co founder and chief product
officer of modern classrooms.
But before that, I was a teacherand still feel like a teacher at
heart and have young kids myself.
I feel closely connected tothe classroom experience still.
And that's important in my work.
(02:13):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
So I suppose without soundinglike the first question in a job
interview, maybe tell us a littleabout yourself and your career and
how you got to where you are today.
Sure.
Like I say, I was a teacher.
I always loved working with youngpeople and so I went into teaching.
When I became a teacher, I realized.
(02:34):
On any given day in any given class,my students were all over the place in
terms of their needs, their backgrounds,their abilities, even their attendance.
I would have my lesson for theday, but some of my students would
already know that they would be.
Nothing new here.
Some of my students weren'tprepared to understand it because
they had gaps in their learning.
(02:55):
They would be lost.
Some of my students weren't there at all.
This was before COVID, but in thecommunity where I taught chronic
absenteeism was a huge problem.
So I needed to find a solution for that.
And what I did is I stoppedteaching the same content at the
same time to all my students.
I.
Took my lessons, and I madeshort videos of myself.
(03:16):
Very simple videos.
Basically, start a Skype call withmyself, hit record, explain something
for a few minutes, stop the recording.
I would share those videos withmy students, so they could learn
from me, but at their own paces.
They could, they could pause, theycould rewind, they could rewatch.
In class, I wasn't Standing up front,trying to control their behavior.
(03:38):
Instead, I was sitting down withthem, getting to know them, building
relationships, doing the things Iwanted to do as a teacher, they could
move at their own paces through thecontent and they could actually.
Learn things as they went, right?
They had to master lesson onebefore they got to lesson two.
And so they were not justbeing pushed along at my pace.
They were really learning,understanding, enjoying learning.
(04:02):
I found this method of teaching, whichby the way, I didn't invent, I I, their
teachers have been doing this for decades.
I learned this from great colleagues.
I just put it together ina way that works for me.
It worked great for me.
I shared it with colleagues,a teacher downstairs from me.
Also loved teaching this way.
He's a bit more entrepreneurialminded than I am.
So he said, we should share this.
(04:23):
We started a nonprofit organizationbasically just to train a few
of our colleagues at our highschool in Washington, DC.
So in 2018, we trained eightteachers in 2019, we trained 25.
Elementary school, middle school, highschool teachers, all subjects, just
trying to use this model of videos,self paced learning and students
(04:46):
achieving mastery before advancingand, they were liking it in 20.
Our goal for 2020 wasto train 50 teachers.
COVID came, people saw us as a solutionto the challenges of COVID teaching.
And even though our approach wasdesigned for in person pre COVID
classroom, it helped a lot of teachers.
We ended up training 700 teachers in 2020.
(05:10):
We have a free online course,which today has reached about 80,
000 teachers all over the world.
And we yeah we've grown sincethen we work with teachers.
Primarily in the U.
S.,
but we've had, we've had teachersfrom all over the world take our
programs, including many from Ireland.
And what we do is the same.
We help teachers go from a sortof one lesson per day approach,
(05:34):
whole class approach, to a moreflexible, differentiated approach
that is more fun for teachers andmore effective for students too.
Fantastic.
It's really interesting that you startedall this before COVID COVID really
seemed to transform a lot of peopleinto using technology as a platform
for delivering the content and forstudents to actually access content.
(05:57):
And you were, do you feel COVIDalmost helped you along or was
it just a happy coincidence orwas it completely different?
I think COVID was a, it was aterrible thing for the world
and for basically everything.
For the, from the perspective of myorganization's growth, which is a kind
(06:20):
of narrow and self centered perspective,but from that perspective, it was good.
It brought a lot of teachers to us.
And I actually think there wasoptimism in that moment for teachers
around the world who thought, look,the way that we've been doing this
for a hundred years is not working.
COVID is going to forceour profession to evolve.
I feel that it did force a lot ofteachers to learn technology, to get
(06:45):
comfortable with it, to get creative,but it almost went too far, and there
was too much technology in school.
And now we see a backlash technologywe use during COVID and it didn't work.
And so now we need to goback to the traditional.
And what I think and what my organizationthinks is we shouldn't be all on
technology students should be onscreens, for a few minutes at a time,
(07:07):
like they shouldn't be looking atscreens all the time, but if you can
use the right amount of technology inthe right way, for instance, to replace
your live instruction with a videothat's really going to help you, right?
Teachers who use our approach feellike they've cloned themselves.
They don't have that pressure to.
Put on our performance everyday because they have the video.
(07:28):
They can work closely with thestudents, which is what they
want to do in the first place.
And so I think you, you said, inthe introduction trends in the U S I
think there was not much technologybefore COVID, there was way too much
technology and now we're in post COVID.
Times we're trying to help teachersrealize, look, instruction is human.
(07:49):
It's about being face to face.
That's the whole purpose of schools.
But if you use technology in somespecific purposeful ways, your classes
are going to function a lot more smoothlyand your students will learn more too.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that kind of, it'san interesting thing.
It mirrors what happens, all overthe world, but certainly in Ireland
where before COVID, similarly,there were pockets of good practice
(08:11):
when it came to technology.
Then COVID came and everyoneclamored, every company was trying
to offer their solution and we.
A lot of people just took on everythingand post, for want of a better term,
post COVID it's the same kind of thing.
Okay.
What, what actually works?
And I think it leads on to thatquestion I was getting you to
ponder on before we, we spoke on.
And it's something Iponder on a lot which is.
(08:34):
I think technology can I wouldn'tsay replace good teaching work, but
it certainly can enhance teacherwork, but also there's places where
technology just can't, I think you,you just mentioned it there that
it can't actually replace teachersbecause if it did, it probably should.
So what can technology do andwhat can't it do in your opinion?
(08:58):
I think that's really the centralquestion of our organization.
And I think we are trying toidentify things that technology
can do better than humans to lethumans focus on what they do better.
One thing that a video can do reallywell is repeat itself over and over.
So if I'm trying to explain a concept.
(09:19):
If I explain it one time in classsome of my students may be bored,
some may be lost, some may bedistracted, some may be absent.
And so what you end up doing as ateacher is repeating the same concept
tens, hundreds, thousands of times inhopes that your students will get it.
If you make a video for that nowyou don't have to repeat yourself.
(09:41):
Your students can watchit at their own paces.
They can pause.
Instead of having to raise theirhand in front of the class and ask a
question, they can just call you over.
You can answer that question.
They can watch at home.
They can watch with their families.
That's such a powerful tool.
And it lets you do something whichcomputers can't, which is sit
down with your student, get toknow them, build a relationship.
(10:04):
Motivate them.
That's what I think teachers shouldreally spend their time doing and
personally, that's why I became a teacher.
I didn't become a teacher because Iwanted to stand in front of a room
of young people and control theirbehavior, but I had to do that when
I was giving one lesson at a time.
Once I stopped doing that and allI did, by the way, is just move
my direct instruction, right?
(10:26):
If I was going to stand at theboard for 15 minutes, I could do
a video probably in five minutesthat would explain the same thing.
So it's not a huge change.
The students are on the computerfor five minutes, but it's profound
in terms of what it makes possiblein terms of relationships and
students moving at their own paces.
And so that sort of thing, a computercan do well, of course, if you have.
(10:48):
Self paced learning, wheredifferent learners are working on
different things at the same time.
You probably also need acomputer to organize that, right?
To have a checklist or a learningmanagement system or something.
But really, aside from thateducation is a human endeavor.
That's why we go to schools.
So we can work with students andstudents can work with each other.
And I think, let technology, let my video.
(11:12):
Give the direct instruction.
Let me spend my time workingclosely with students.
And it's what I want for my kidstoo, I don't want my kids going
to school and staring at a screen.
I also don't want my kids going toschool and being totally bored when
the teacher's lecturing at them, I wantthem to sit down with the teacher, get
to know the teacher, work with theirclassmates, and videos make that possible.
(11:33):
And it seems like such a simple kind ofidea just as simply having their teachers
in their classroom, but their teacheris also a almost virtual to them, but
there how does that, how have studentsreacted to, having their teacher on the
screen, but also at the same time in theirclassroom, did they find it, did they get
a kick out of that or how does it work?
(11:54):
Yeah, at first, I think they geta real kick out of it they react
like you, but wait a second, Mr.
Barnett, this is you on the video, andyou're here, and as a teacher, it's weird,
because, you might walk around the room,and you hear your voice coming through
all these computers, it's definitelyweird at first, students, they often
are confused by it, it's different,right, students Students like to go to
(12:14):
school, sit in the corner, be left aloneand listen to the teacher and, that's
easy, but school shouldn't be easy.
Learning is hard, right?
Students should be made to engage.
And so sometimes it takes a littlewhile to get students to buy into this
idea that you're not just going to comesit in the corner and learn from me.
You gotta go get a computer.
You gotta watch the video.
(12:35):
You gotta practice whatyou learned in the video.
You have to improve your understanding.
But once students getit, once that clicks.
Which could be a day for some students,a week, a month for other students.
Um, it's profound also because they feellike, okay, I'm not going to show up and
get forced by my teacher through contentI already understand or I'm not prepared
(12:57):
to understand or I missed Monday's lessonso on Tuesday I'm totally confused.
They feel like I'm going to come in,I'm going to pick up where I left off.
If I want, I can keep learningat home really easily.
And my teacher is here tosupport me, to help me learn.
Before I was teaching like this,I felt every day I had to go
put on some great performance.
(13:18):
Once I had this model up and running, Ifelt I show up to school and I help my
students learn and that was really cool.
That's very interesting.
And I, so what I'm getting so far is thatthe students in your class you, they're
watching a video of the instruction.
So I know you're a math teacher andso you might be delivering a concept.
(13:39):
I don't know.
I, everyone thinks of algebra whenthey think of second level math.
So I will stick with that.
So you're teaching, you're givinga direct instruction, let's say
in quadratic equations, becausethat's what everybody thinks too.
And so student watches you,you're in the classroom.
What happens after the video?
Do you have a.
A bunch of online questions or is itbook based questions or is how does the
(14:03):
actual practice happen and how, wheredo you come into that as a human, the
human you rather than the video you.
Yeah great question.
So students can watch thevideos in class or at home.
It doesn't, it doesn't really matter.
It's flexible in that way.
But in my class and what I recommend tothe teachers we train is make your video
five or 10 minutes, no more than that,because students will lose, lose attention
(14:29):
and have the students do somethingwhile they watch the video, right?
That might be answer questionsthat pop up in the video that
might be taking notes after that.
Close the computer, do something onpaper, do something face to face.
So in a math class, I'd sayonce you finish the video, look
around, find someone else who'sat the same place as you are.
(14:50):
Here's some practice problems.
It might be a worksheet.
It might be problems from thetextbook, like work together on that.
If my video explains how to grapha quadratic function, here's
a page of practice problems.
Work with your classmateuntil you understand it.
And then if you have questions,let me know, I'm here to help.
Once you feel ready, once youfeel you understand it, I'm going
(15:12):
to give you a mastery check.
I'm going to give you one problemto graph a quadratic function.
If you do this right, I'm goingto say, great, you understand it.
Move on to exponentialfunctions or whatever.
If you don't get it right,I'm going to say, hold on.
Before you move on to the nextthing, let's make sure you get this.
Go back to the video.
(15:33):
Come sit with me.
Go speak to Simon.
Simon mastered this yesterday.
Let's make sure you get it.
Try again before you move on.
So often in the traditional school,a student misses Lesson 1, but then
we push them to Lesson 2 anyways,and they can't understand it.
Of course they can't understand it.
You shouldn't understand Lesson 2 if youdon't understand Lesson 1, because If you
(15:57):
did less than one would be meaningless.
We need to make sure studentsare moving at that foundation.
It's hard to know.
I can't give it can't give time for this.
Cause part of the whole purpose isstudents take the time they need.
But on average, in my class studentwatches a five to 10 minute video that
might take 15 to 20 minutes with gettingset up, getting the headphones, taking
the notes, whatever, and they spent30, 45 minutes, an hour doing practice.
(16:24):
Yeah, with classmates, they takethe mastery check, which takes 5
minutes and then they go back andrevise or the or they move on.
And there's some management thatneeds to be figured out there.
You need good systems to know who'sworking on what and make sure students
understand the road map after this.
I do this.
But once you have that down,I think of the class almost
(16:46):
like a university library.
Some students will bewatching videos on their own.
Some students will beworking together on practice.
Some students will be sittingwith me to get feedback.
Some students aredemonstrating their mastery.
It's dynamic, but every studentis appropriately challenged.
And appropriately supported every day.
It's a great dynamic for a classroombecause again, we've had the same types of
(17:07):
classroom for, nearly 200 years where theteacher is at the top of the classroom.
The students are all, effectively,more or less, working at the
same thing at the same time.
And I think, technology is.
enabled us to differentiatebetter and give children
more individualized learning.
But this is something in between allthat a little bit where, you know
(17:28):
you've it's self paced, but you've, it'salmost like you've got two teachers in
the room, but they're the same person.
It's a really interesting thing.
And one of the things I was, whenwe were emailing, you said something
that really hit me was how technologymakes classrooms feel more human
or where it can make technology.
Where technology can makeclassrooms feel more human.
And I'm just, it really struck me asa really interesting turn of phrase.
(17:49):
And I think I understand what you meanjust from what you've been talking about,
but maybe you could expand on that.
How does technology makeclassrooms now feel more human?
Yeah and by the way, it's nottwo teachers in the classroom.
If you got 20 students,it's 21 teachers, right?
Because they can all watch my video.
And there I am.
And actually, by the way, when studentshave a bit more flexibility, they
(18:11):
can ask each other for help freely.
Right?
When I'm standing at the board givinga lesson with no technology, It's
not a very human experience forstudents, because I'm basically saying
be quiet and listen to me, right?
It's not high quality interaction.
We don't build relationships.
They don't buildrelationships with each other.
(18:31):
They're, my job is to control theirbehavior and their job is to comply.
When I moved to this approach wherestudents are moving at their own pace
with instruction through the video,all of a sudden I spend my time
sitting down with students, gettingto know them, building relationships.
I could say, Hey, how's your math?
(18:52):
And by the way, did yousee the game last night?
What are you doing this weekend?
How's your brother doing?
It's so much more of that.
And students are doingthat with each other too.
Because there is only one of me.
If there are 20 students, they can'tall wait to get help from me, right?
So one person is sitting there andsaying, okay, let me find someone else.
Let me ask them for help, and so it'sthat university library again, right?
(19:15):
It's me working closely with studentsworking closely with one another.
That's very human.
That's very meaningful.
When I think of my time inschool, I sat through hours and
hours of teachers talking at me.
Not very interesting.
What I liked was Being in thelibrary with my friends and studying
together and or staying afterclass to speak with the teacher.
But why should you have to stay afterclass to meet one on one with the teacher?
(19:38):
You should do that in class.
And so that's what I mean about,how do you make sure that the
teacher spends the highest possiblepercentage of their time in class
interacting closely with students?
I think technology iswhat makes that possible.
Yeah, no it's fascinating.
And it strikes me that, you mentionedthere about the relationship building
(19:59):
that you do now or that you cando more effectively, what does.
Like your average classroomis certainly in Ireland.
I don't know what it's like over there,but it's a lot of it's crowd control.
We have massive class sizes.
You've one teacher.
We don't have teachingassistants in the main.
So you've won one adult and,maybe 25 to 30 children in a room.
(20:19):
And with All the various needsand different abilities, language
abilities, all those sort ofthings, all mixed up into one place.
So it's much more complex, let'ssay, than even it was a generation
ago when I started teaching.
And relationships, relationship buildingseems to be the thing that You know,
helps people along to to, you, youdon't have do you find that, let's say
(20:41):
the level of disruption, the level oflike the, negative behaviors and things
like that, they're just vastly reducedby this technique or, has, is it.
How does a classroom look now?
I don't know about vastly reduced,young people are young people, but
that was certainly my experience inAmerican public schools too, me, 30
(21:02):
kids on the roster, maybe that meansthere are 25 in class one day or 20,
cause absenteeism was a big issue.
But when I trained to be ateacher, I learned a lot of kind
of behavior management techniques.
And I think the theory was ifyou can get kids to comply.
You can engage them in learning, andI think that's totally backwards.
(21:25):
The best way to get kids tocomply is to engage them, right?
The best form of classroommanagement is engaging instruction.
If I'm trying to give a, alesson to all my students, and
some students already know it.
They're going to be goofing off, right?
I would goof off as a student ifthere was nothing for me to learn.
If I was if students aren't preparedto understand it, because I'm on
(21:47):
Lesson 3, but they were absent forLesson 1 and 2, they're going to put
their head down on their desk, right?
They can't learn.
And so I think, oftentimes, Bad behaviorscome from students being disengaged
or not challenged or not supported.
I think every young person showsup to school wanting to learn.
(22:07):
They just act out when they don't feellike they can learn because it's nothing
new or it's too hard or they're confused.
And of course, like when you stepdown from the front of the room and
you give students more freedom, Yes,students don't always, they're not
always perfect scholars, but whenstudents are engaged, they behave and.
(22:28):
I always felt like when I was standingin the front of the room, I would get
into these awful behavior showdowns, orI would say, Simon, put your phone down
and the student Simon would say, no.
And it's what am I going to do?
Call the principal?
Principal's not calling.
So now.
If I'm walking around the room tosit down with my students and I see
(22:49):
that, student called Simon, my son iscalled Simon, by the way, I see that
student called Simon is on the phone.
Instead of learning, I don'thave to call him out in front
of the whole class, right?
I don't have to do this horriblething where I say, make sure
your phones are put away.
I just walk up to him and Isay, Hey, Simon, what's up?
I'd love to see you learning andhe'll probably say, instead of being
(23:11):
defiant because he's been calledout in front of his classmates,
he'll say, Oh, yeah, you're right.
Sorry.
Let me put the phone away.
So it's more engaging.
It's students behave better becausethey're more engaged and it's
easier to correct misbehaviorwhen you are flexible versus when
you're trying to, do crowd control.
Yeah, exactly.
No that, that makes sense.
I meant to ask you onequestion just around the video.
(23:32):
How important is it that it's you, theclass teacher who's on the video, as
opposed to, let's say, a randomer whomakes it, who develops the same content?
So you're trying to teach amaths concept and that, I've
created something over here.
How important is it that it's the actualclass teacher that creates the video?
It depends on the teacher andit depends on the students.
(23:54):
I think the random video, It'salready much better than the
whole class live explanation.
And so if your students like videosyou find on YouTube and you find
good videos on YouTube, go with that.
For me, I felt like mystudents liked my videos.
It felt personal.
Remember, so much of thisis about the human touch.
(24:17):
And also, I knew like my school hadcertain initiatives around our priorities,
and I knew the things my studentswere interested in when I taught math.
And so I thought I can createvideos that relate to my students
and fit in with other sort ofinstructional strategies at the school.
To me, it was worth the investmentto create my own videos.
(24:38):
And it's not a financial investment,by the way, all you need is a computer.
It's just an investment of time.
Yeah, I felt like if I take, if I take.
An hour after school to create twovideos, then I'll have these as long as
I teach, I won't need to do it again.
My students will appreciate it.
Great.
But sometimes, couldn't stay after school.
And so I would find a video fromYouTube and I would show my students
(24:59):
and sometimes they'd say, wow,that Khan Academy guy is so boring.
And sometimes they would say, wow,that Khan Academy guy is really clear.
He's way better than you, Mr.
Barnett.
So that variety is useful sometimes too.
Yeah, true.
Like even having a different, it's likehaving a different perspective, which
kind of leads me on to the, one of my lastquestions before I ask you the last one.
(25:23):
It's really, AI has become.
Fairly transformative over herein Ireland already with, a number
of teachers now using it forplanning and preparation and so on.
But what's really becoming quiteinteresting is video through AI.
Being able to make engaging videoswithout actually having to video anyone.
(25:43):
It's like text to video or so on.
Is this something that you think isgoing to help with what you're doing?
Or is it, do you still, do you thinkit will take away that human feel?
So it's funny you say that I'm actuallyworking on a, on an AI tool of my
own, which I'm calling InstaLesson.
And the idea is.
I find a lot of these AI tools tobe difficult to figure out how to
(26:05):
use, there's so many tools, andwhat they produce is often not that
effective because what they produceis a whole class lesson and I don't
believe in whole class instruction.
The tool I'm building called InstaLesson,it, you type in a topic and it produces
exactly what I've talked about.
It finds a video from YouTube.
It gives students practice activitiesthey can do together and it includes
(26:28):
a mastery check and I'm biased, butI think it's super simple to use.
It's free.
I think the output's really good.
So that's my tool.
And so I said, and I do think it can saveteachers planning time in creating not a
perfect lesson but a pretty good lesson.
In terms of AI createdvideos I have my eye on that.
(26:48):
I think it's.
I think it's promising and itcould work once the technology's
there, if teachers are comfortablewith an AI generated video.
Great.
I think what I'm really thinkingabout a lot is how does the
student spend their time in class?
Sorry, how does the teacherspend their time in class?
And how do we ensure that the studentspends their time appropriately
(27:10):
challenged and appropriately supported?
I don't love AI programsthat keep students on screen.
Talking with the chat bot, I don'tlike, I want students to get what
they need from the computer, closethe computer and work together.
But if AI helps the teacher create avideo or a mastery check or an Insta
(27:32):
lesson, so the teacher can spendhuman time with students and the
students are challenged and supported.
Great.
Fantastic.
No, that's, that makes loads of sense.
So I think I could talk to you for.
Hours more on this side.
There's so much.
I really just love that methodologythat you've come up with and
(27:52):
how it's working so well.
And before I leave you, I, we have athing on this podcast where we ask every
guest what they would do if they werethe Minister for Education in Ireland.
So I'm going to you.
Get a plane over to you, transport youover to Ireland, and you're going to be
in charge of the education system forone day where you can change one thing.
(28:14):
It doesn't have to relateto technology, but it can.
So what would you do if youwere the Minister for Education?
I've never been to Irelandand I'd love to come visit.
Although being the minister,it sounds stressful.
What I would do, and I say this knowingvery little about your education system
is I would get rid of age based education.
I think.
(28:35):
The fundamental problem is that weexpect everyone who's six years old to
learn the same thing at the same time.
And I think we do that becausewe believe it's efficient.
The teacher will explain, will givethis lesson Monday, this lesson
Tuesday, this lesson Wednesday.
But those six year olds or tenyear olds or whatever year old,
they all have different needs.
(28:56):
They all need different things.
When I think about my kids, I don't wantthem to learn what an average six year
old is supposed to learn on February 18th.
I want them to learn what is next forthem in the progression of learning.
They may be ahead of the pace,they may be behind the pace,
they may be right on pace.
(29:16):
I don't care.
I don't want them to beEducated based on their age.
I want them to be educated based ontheir needs and their interests and
their abilities and who they are.
And so I think we're at a point wherewe could, I'm not saying we put five
year olds in the class with 15 yearolds, we can still have primary schools
and secondary schools, but withinthose schools, I think we should think
(29:38):
about, can we be grouping studentsand giving them curriculum based on
their needs instead of their age?
That's what I want for my kids.
And if I can come to Ireland and putthat into place, maybe I'll move.
That would be amazing.
It's interesting because I mentionedthere earlier on the, that schools have
really changed relatively little intheir structure for the last 200 years.
(30:00):
And I think the missing ingredientof having technology to help
us along, because a model like.
You're proposing it?
I it's something that I've heard alittle bit about and there's definitely
movement towards it is really expensive.
So technology in a way to almostmake that affordable for governments,
I think is definitely worth it.
There's definitely a movement in thatwhere there's a, I dunno if you've heard
(30:22):
of the democratic schools movement.
I dunno if it's reached theStates, but in Europe it's becoming
something interesting for children.
Decide themselves whatthey're going to be learning.
And there's a democratic process.
It's really interesting.
So we're going to finish up now butwhere can people find you if they want
to reach out to you and learn a littlebit more about what you're doing?
Of course, modern classroomsproject is a nonprofit organization.
(30:44):
We make all of our materialsavailable for free.
And so if you go to modern classrooms.
org.
You can find everything you need.
I've just written a book.
It's called Meet Every Learner'sNeeds, and you can find more
at meeteverylearnersneeds.
org.
And then if you want to try thisin a way that's pretty accessible,
you should check out InstaLesson.
(31:04):
It's insta lesson.
com.
It's also free to use.
Might give you some ideas to get started.
So I hope that gives your listenersenough, at least to get started.
Absolutely.
Rob, thank you so much for talking to me.
I really enjoyed the conversationand the very, very best of luck with
all the projects as you're involvedin your, you seem like a really
innovative and interesting teacherand good luck with everything else.
(31:28):
I'm sure we'll be hearing moreprojects and please do keep in touch.
So that.
Was Rob Barnett from the ModernClassroom Project as well as InstaLesson.
And I will put all the linksto all the things that Rob has
mentioned to me in our show notes.
Thanks so much.
Thank you.
So there you have it, a reallyinteresting concept I think for
(31:49):
sure that Rob has come up with.
It's a very simple thing, I suppose onthe surface, I'm sure there's more to it,
just around having a video instructionso that you as the teacher can then spend
some time spend your time more effectivelygoing around the class, building the
relationships up with the pupils and if,and the instruction is always there for
them to see in school, outside of school.
(32:12):
And I do the idea, I'm tickled, bythe idea that it's your own teacher
who's on the video at the time.
I know Rob said it doesn't have to be but,an interesting way where you can build up
those relationships and save that time.
Because, one thing we all can agree on iswe don't have a lot of time and I'm really
interested in some of his other Ideasout there especially that Insta lesson.
I like, there's plenty of these lessonplanners that you can do with AI, but
(32:35):
this one does seem to be a bit moretargeted towards a particular learner.
So do check that out.
As I said, all of the links thatRob mentioned are on the show notes.
And I trust you will look at them.
Those another link you might consideris subscribing to my newsletter.
I'm also interested in using AI andI've developed a very short course
(32:56):
which is completely free to all ofour listeners and anyone else really
for that matter to show you how youcan code using AI without doing any
coding, it's called code without coding.
And you can find thattoo in the show notes.
That's it for me for this week.
Thanks so much for listeningall the very, very best.
Take care.
Bye bye.
Hello, Hello, you are very welcome to ifI were the minister for education from on
shot dot net, a regular podcast where Idive into the world of primary education
in Ireland and let you know what I woulddo if I were the minister for education.
This is Simon Lewis speaking.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to my fortnightly
(00:25):
newsletter, where I go through some ofthe news from Irish primary education
and beyond from my own perspective.
And I also give some hints and tips fromthe classroom, some technology tips and
other bonus materials that's at onshaw.
net slash subscribe.
On this week's show, I am delighted tobe interviewing a man called Rob Barnett.
(00:49):
And while you will be very interestedin hearing what he has to say, is he's
come up with this really interestingway to use technology in the classroom.
And in a way that I'm going to describeto you is like having over 20 teachers
in the classroom who are all you.
It's a really interesting concept andhe's built a platform around it, which
(01:13):
I hope you'll enjoy listening about.
He's also developed a couple ofother tools and he's written a book.
He is a busy man indeed.
Rob Barnett is the co founder andchief product officer of Modern
Classrooms Project and I thinkyou'll really enjoy hearing from him.
If you'd like to hear more from himas well here I'll have all of his
(01:35):
links at the end of the show notesas well as one of his TEDx talks
which is a really Good place to learnto start by getting to know him.
But I'm very lucky thatI have him with me now.
And I'm delighted to introduce Rob toif I were the minister for education.
, Simon (01:52):
Rob, you're very welcome to If I Were the Minister for Education.
Thank you.
I'm happy to be here.
And I think I should also say yes, Iam the co founder and chief product
officer of modern classrooms.
But before that, I was a teacherand still feel like a teacher at
heart and have young kids myself.
I feel closely connected tothe classroom experience still.
And that's important in my work.
(02:13):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
So I suppose without soundinglike the first question in a job
interview, maybe tell us a littleabout yourself and your career and
how you got to where you are today.
Sure.
Like I say, I was a teacher.
I always loved working with youngpeople and so I went into teaching.
When I became a teacher, I realized.
(02:34):
On any given day in any given class,my students were all over the place in
terms of their needs, their backgrounds,their abilities, even their attendance.
I would have my lesson for theday, but some of my students would
already know that they would be.
Nothing new here.
Some of my students weren'tprepared to understand it because
they had gaps in their learning.
(02:55):
They would be lost.
Some of my students weren't there at all.
This was before COVID, but in thecommunity where I taught chronic
absenteeism was a huge problem.
So I needed to find a solution for that.
And what I did is I stoppedteaching the same content at the
same time to all my students.
I.
Took my lessons, and I madeshort videos of myself.
(03:16):
Very simple videos.
Basically, start a Skype call withmyself, hit record, explain something
for a few minutes, stop the recording.
I would share those videos withmy students, so they could learn
from me, but at their own paces.
They could, they could pause, theycould rewind, they could rewatch.
In class, I wasn't Standing up front,trying to control their behavior.
(03:38):
Instead, I was sitting down withthem, getting to know them, building
relationships, doing the things Iwanted to do as a teacher, they could
move at their own paces through thecontent and they could actually.
Learn things as they went, right?
They had to master lesson onebefore they got to lesson two.
And so they were not justbeing pushed along at my pace.
They were really learning,understanding, enjoying learning.
(04:02):
I found this method of teaching, whichby the way, I didn't invent, I I, their
teachers have been doing this for decades.
I learned this from great colleagues.
I just put it together ina way that works for me.
It worked great for me.
I shared it with colleagues,a teacher downstairs from me.
Also loved teaching this way.
He's a bit more entrepreneurialminded than I am.
So he said, we should share this.
(04:23):
We started a nonprofit organizationbasically just to train a few
of our colleagues at our highschool in Washington, DC.
So in 2018, we trained eightteachers in 2019, we trained 25.
Elementary school, middle school, highschool teachers, all subjects, just
trying to use this model of videos,self paced learning and students
(04:46):
achieving mastery before advancingand, they were liking it in 20.
Our goal for 2020 wasto train 50 teachers.
COVID came, people saw us as a solutionto the challenges of COVID teaching.
And even though our approach wasdesigned for in person pre COVID
classroom, it helped a lot of teachers.
We ended up training 700 teachers in 2020.
(05:10):
We have a free online course,which today has reached about 80,
000 teachers all over the world.
And we yeah we've grown sincethen we work with teachers.
Primarily in the U.
S.,
but we've had, we've had teachersfrom all over the world take our
programs, including many from Ireland.
And what we do is the same.
We help teachers go from a sortof one lesson per day approach,
(05:34):
whole class approach, to a moreflexible, differentiated approach
that is more fun for teachers andmore effective for students too.
Fantastic.
It's really interesting that you startedall this before COVID COVID really
seemed to transform a lot of peopleinto using technology as a platform
for delivering the content and forstudents to actually access content.
(05:57):
And you were, do you feel COVIDalmost helped you along or was
it just a happy coincidence orwas it completely different?
I think COVID was a, it was aterrible thing for the world
and for basically everything.
For the, from the perspective of myorganization's growth, which is a kind
(06:20):
of narrow and self centered perspective,but from that perspective, it was good.
It brought a lot of teachers to us.
And I actually think there wasoptimism in that moment for teachers
around the world who thought, look,the way that we've been doing this
for a hundred years is not working.
COVID is going to forceour profession to evolve.
I feel that it did force a lot ofteachers to learn technology, to get
(06:45):
comfortable with it, to get creative,but it almost went too far, and there
was too much technology in school.
And now we see a backlash technologywe use during COVID and it didn't work.
And so now we need to goback to the traditional.
And what I think and what my organizationthinks is we shouldn't be all on
technology students should be onscreens, for a few minutes at a time,
(07:07):
like they shouldn't be looking atscreens all the time, but if you can
use the right amount of technology inthe right way, for instance, to replace
your live instruction with a videothat's really going to help you, right?
Teachers who use our approach feellike they've cloned themselves.
They don't have that pressure to.
Put on our performance everyday because they have the video.
(07:28):
They can work closely with thestudents, which is what they
want to do in the first place.
And so I think you, you said, inthe introduction trends in the U S I
think there was not much technologybefore COVID, there was way too much
technology and now we're in post COVID.
Times we're trying to help teachersrealize, look, instruction is human.
(07:49):
It's about being face to face.
That's the whole purpose of schools.
But if you use technology in somespecific purposeful ways, your classes
are going to function a lot more smoothlyand your students will learn more too.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that kind of, it'san interesting thing.
It mirrors what happens, all overthe world, but certainly in Ireland
where before COVID, similarly,there were pockets of good practice
(08:11):
when it came to technology.
Then COVID came and everyoneclamored, every company was trying
to offer their solution and we.
A lot of people just took on everythingand post, for want of a better term,
post COVID it's the same kind of thing.
Okay.
What, what actually works?
And I think it leads on to thatquestion I was getting you to
ponder on before we, we spoke on.
And it's something Iponder on a lot which is.
(08:34):
I think technology can I wouldn'tsay replace good teaching work, but
it certainly can enhance teacherwork, but also there's places where
technology just can't, I think you,you just mentioned it there that
it can't actually replace teachersbecause if it did, it probably should.
So what can technology do andwhat can't it do in your opinion?
(08:58):
I think that's really the centralquestion of our organization.
And I think we are trying toidentify things that technology
can do better than humans to lethumans focus on what they do better.
One thing that a video can do reallywell is repeat itself over and over.
So if I'm trying to explain a concept.
(09:19):
If I explain it one time in classsome of my students may be bored,
some may be lost, some may bedistracted, some may be absent.
And so what you end up doing as ateacher is repeating the same concept
tens, hundreds, thousands of times inhopes that your students will get it.
If you make a video for that nowyou don't have to repeat yourself.
(09:41):
Your students can watchit at their own paces.
They can pause.
Instead of having to raise theirhand in front of the class and ask a
question, they can just call you over.
You can answer that question.
They can watch at home.
They can watch with their families.
That's such a powerful tool.
And it lets you do something whichcomputers can't, which is sit
down with your student, get toknow them, build a relationship.
(10:04):
Motivate them.
That's what I think teachers shouldreally spend their time doing and
personally, that's why I became a teacher.
I didn't become a teacher because Iwanted to stand in front of a room
of young people and control theirbehavior, but I had to do that when
I was giving one lesson at a time.
Once I stopped doing that and allI did, by the way, is just move
my direct instruction, right?
(10:26):
If I was going to stand at theboard for 15 minutes, I could do
a video probably in five minutesthat would explain the same thing.
So it's not a huge change.
The students are on the computerfor five minutes, but it's profound
in terms of what it makes possiblein terms of relationships and
students moving at their own paces.
And so that sort of thing, a computercan do well, of course, if you have.
(10:48):
Self paced learning, wheredifferent learners are working on
different things at the same time.
You probably also need acomputer to organize that, right?
To have a checklist or a learningmanagement system or something.
But really, aside from thateducation is a human endeavor.
That's why we go to schools.
So we can work with students andstudents can work with each other.
And I think, let technology, let my video.
(11:12):
Give the direct instruction.
Let me spend my time workingclosely with students.
And it's what I want for my kidstoo, I don't want my kids going
to school and staring at a screen.
I also don't want my kids going toschool and being totally bored when
the teacher's lecturing at them, I wantthem to sit down with the teacher, get
to know the teacher, work with theirclassmates, and videos make that possible.
(11:33):
And it seems like such a simple kind ofidea just as simply having their teachers
in their classroom, but their teacheris also a almost virtual to them, but
there how does that, how have studentsreacted to, having their teacher on the
screen, but also at the same time in theirclassroom, did they find it, did they get
a kick out of that or how does it work?
(11:54):
Yeah, at first, I think they geta real kick out of it they react
like you, but wait a second, Mr.
Barnett, this is you on the video, andyou're here, and as a teacher, it's weird,
because, you might walk around the room,and you hear your voice coming through
all these computers, it's definitelyweird at first, students, they often
are confused by it, it's different,right, students Students like to go to
(12:14):
school, sit in the corner, be left aloneand listen to the teacher and, that's
easy, but school shouldn't be easy.
Learning is hard, right?
Students should be made to engage.
And so sometimes it takes a littlewhile to get students to buy into this
idea that you're not just going to comesit in the corner and learn from me.
You gotta go get a computer.
You gotta watch the video.
(12:35):
You gotta practice whatyou learned in the video.
You have to improve your understanding.
But once students getit, once that clicks.
Which could be a day for some students,a week, a month for other students.
Um, it's profound also because they feellike, okay, I'm not going to show up and
get forced by my teacher through contentI already understand or I'm not prepared
(12:57):
to understand or I missed Monday's lessonso on Tuesday I'm totally confused.
They feel like I'm going to come in,I'm going to pick up where I left off.
If I want, I can keep learningat home really easily.
And my teacher is here tosupport me, to help me learn.
Before I was teaching like this,I felt every day I had to go
put on some great performance.
(13:18):
Once I had this model up and running, Ifelt I show up to school and I help my
students learn and that was really cool.
That's very interesting.
And I, so what I'm getting so far is thatthe students in your class you, they're
watching a video of the instruction.
So I know you're a math teacher andso you might be delivering a concept.
(13:39):
I don't know.
I, everyone thinks of algebra whenthey think of second level math.
So I will stick with that.
So you're teaching, you're givinga direct instruction, let's say
in quadratic equations, becausethat's what everybody thinks too.
And so student watches you,you're in the classroom.
What happens after the video?
Do you have a.
A bunch of online questions or is itbook based questions or is how does the
(14:03):
actual practice happen and how, wheredo you come into that as a human, the
human you rather than the video you.
Yeah great question.
So students can watch thevideos in class or at home.
It doesn't, it doesn't really matter.
It's flexible in that way.
But in my class and what I recommend tothe teachers we train is make your video
five or 10 minutes, no more than that,because students will lose, lose attention
(14:29):
and have the students do somethingwhile they watch the video, right?
That might be answer questionsthat pop up in the video that
might be taking notes after that.
Close the computer, do something onpaper, do something face to face.
So in a math class, I'd sayonce you finish the video, look
around, find someone else who'sat the same place as you are.
(14:50):
Here's some practice problems.
It might be a worksheet.
It might be problems from thetextbook, like work together on that.
If my video explains how to grapha quadratic function, here's
a page of practice problems.
Work with your classmateuntil you understand it.
And then if you have questions,let me know, I'm here to help.
Once you feel ready, once youfeel you understand it, I'm going
(15:12):
to give you a mastery check.
I'm going to give you one problemto graph a quadratic function.
If you do this right, I'm goingto say, great, you understand it.
Move on to exponentialfunctions or whatever.
If you don't get it right,I'm going to say, hold on.
Before you move on to the nextthing, let's make sure you get this.
Go back to the video.
(15:33):
Come sit with me.
Go speak to Simon.
Simon mastered this yesterday.
Let's make sure you get it.
Try again before you move on.
So often in the traditional school,a student misses Lesson 1, but then
we push them to Lesson 2 anyways,and they can't understand it.
Of course they can't understand it.
You shouldn't understand Lesson 2 if youdon't understand Lesson 1, because If you
(15:57):
did less than one would be meaningless.
We need to make sure studentsare moving at that foundation.
It's hard to know.
I can't give it can't give time for this.
Cause part of the whole purpose isstudents take the time they need.
But on average, in my class studentwatches a five to 10 minute video that
might take 15 to 20 minutes with gettingset up, getting the headphones, taking
the notes, whatever, and they spent30, 45 minutes, an hour doing practice.
(16:24):
Yeah, with classmates, they takethe mastery check, which takes 5
minutes and then they go back andrevise or the or they move on.
And there's some management thatneeds to be figured out there.
You need good systems to know who'sworking on what and make sure students
understand the road map after this.
I do this.
But once you have that down,I think of the class almost
(16:46):
like a university library.
Some students will bewatching videos on their own.
Some students will beworking together on practice.
Some students will be sittingwith me to get feedback.
Some students aredemonstrating their mastery.
It's dynamic, but every studentis appropriately challenged.
And appropriately supported every day.
It's a great dynamic for a classroombecause again, we've had the same types of
(17:07):
classroom for, nearly 200 years where theteacher is at the top of the classroom.
The students are all, effectively,more or less, working at the
same thing at the same time.
And I think, technology is.
enabled us to differentiatebetter and give children
more individualized learning.
But this is something in between allthat a little bit where, you know
(17:28):
you've it's self paced, but you've, it'salmost like you've got two teachers in
the room, but they're the same person.
It's a really interesting thing.
And one of the things I was, whenwe were emailing, you said something
that really hit me was how technologymakes classrooms feel more human
or where it can make technology.
Where technology can makeclassrooms feel more human.
And I'm just, it really struck me asa really interesting turn of phrase.
(17:49):
And I think I understand what you meanjust from what you've been talking about,
but maybe you could expand on that.
How does technology makeclassrooms now feel more human?
Yeah and by the way, it's nottwo teachers in the classroom.
If you got 20 students,it's 21 teachers, right?
Because they can all watch my video.
And there I am.
And actually, by the way, when studentshave a bit more flexibility, they
(18:11):
can ask each other for help freely.
Right?
When I'm standing at the board givinga lesson with no technology, It's
not a very human experience forstudents, because I'm basically saying
be quiet and listen to me, right?
It's not high quality interaction.
We don't build relationships.
They don't buildrelationships with each other.
(18:31):
They're, my job is to control theirbehavior and their job is to comply.
When I moved to this approach wherestudents are moving at their own pace
with instruction through the video,all of a sudden I spend my time
sitting down with students, gettingto know them, building relationships.
I could say, Hey, how's your math?
(18:52):
And by the way, did yousee the game last night?
What are you doing this weekend?
How's your brother doing?
It's so much more of that.
And students are doingthat with each other too.
Because there is only one of me.
If there are 20 students, they can'tall wait to get help from me, right?
So one person is sitting there andsaying, okay, let me find someone else.
Let me ask them for help, and so it'sthat university library again, right?
(19:15):
It's me working closely with studentsworking closely with one another.
That's very human.
That's very meaningful.
When I think of my time inschool, I sat through hours and
hours of teachers talking at me.
Not very interesting.
What I liked was Being in thelibrary with my friends and studying
together and or staying afterclass to speak with the teacher.
But why should you have to stay afterclass to meet one on one with the teacher?
(19:38):
You should do that in class.
And so that's what I mean about,how do you make sure that the
teacher spends the highest possiblepercentage of their time in class
interacting closely with students?
I think technology iswhat makes that possible.
Yeah, no it's fascinating.
And it strikes me that, you mentionedthere about the relationship building
(19:59):
that you do now or that you cando more effectively, what does.
Like your average classroomis certainly in Ireland.
I don't know what it's like over there,but it's a lot of it's crowd control.
We have massive class sizes.
You've one teacher.
We don't have teachingassistants in the main.
So you've won one adult and,maybe 25 to 30 children in a room.
(20:19):
And with All the various needsand different abilities, language
abilities, all those sort ofthings, all mixed up into one place.
So it's much more complex, let'ssay, than even it was a generation
ago when I started teaching.
And relationships, relationship buildingseems to be the thing that You know,
helps people along to to, you, youdon't have do you find that, let's say
(20:41):
the level of disruption, the level oflike the, negative behaviors and things
like that, they're just vastly reducedby this technique or, has, is it.
How does a classroom look now?
I don't know about vastly reduced,young people are young people, but
that was certainly my experience inAmerican public schools too, me, 30
(21:02):
kids on the roster, maybe that meansthere are 25 in class one day or 20,
cause absenteeism was a big issue.
But when I trained to be ateacher, I learned a lot of kind
of behavior management techniques.
And I think the theory was ifyou can get kids to comply.
You can engage them in learning, andI think that's totally backwards.
(21:25):
The best way to get kids tocomply is to engage them, right?
The best form of classroommanagement is engaging instruction.
If I'm trying to give a, alesson to all my students, and
some students already know it.
They're going to be goofing off, right?
I would goof off as a student ifthere was nothing for me to learn.
If I was if students aren't preparedto understand it, because I'm on
(21:47):
Lesson 3, but they were absent forLesson 1 and 2, they're going to put
their head down on their desk, right?
They can't learn.
And so I think, oftentimes, Bad behaviorscome from students being disengaged
or not challenged or not supported.
I think every young person showsup to school wanting to learn.
(22:07):
They just act out when they don't feellike they can learn because it's nothing
new or it's too hard or they're confused.
And of course, like when you stepdown from the front of the room and
you give students more freedom, Yes,students don't always, they're not
always perfect scholars, but whenstudents are engaged, they behave and.
(22:28):
I always felt like when I was standingin the front of the room, I would get
into these awful behavior showdowns, orI would say, Simon, put your phone down
and the student Simon would say, no.
And it's what am I going to do?
Call the principal?
Principal's not calling.
So now.
If I'm walking around the room tosit down with my students and I see
(22:49):
that, student called Simon, my son iscalled Simon, by the way, I see that
student called Simon is on the phone.
Instead of learning, I don'thave to call him out in front
of the whole class, right?
I don't have to do this horriblething where I say, make sure
your phones are put away.
I just walk up to him and Isay, Hey, Simon, what's up?
I'd love to see you learning andhe'll probably say, instead of being
(23:11):
defiant because he's been calledout in front of his classmates,
he'll say, Oh, yeah, you're right.
Sorry.
Let me put the phone away.
So it's more engaging.
It's students behave better becausethey're more engaged and it's
easier to correct misbehaviorwhen you are flexible versus when
you're trying to, do crowd control.
Yeah, exactly.
No that, that makes sense.
I meant to ask you onequestion just around the video.
(23:32):
How important is it that it's you, theclass teacher who's on the video, as
opposed to, let's say, a randomer whomakes it, who develops the same content?
So you're trying to teach amaths concept and that, I've
created something over here.
How important is it that it's the actualclass teacher that creates the video?
It depends on the teacher andit depends on the students.
(23:54):
I think the random video, It'salready much better than the
whole class live explanation.
And so if your students like videosyou find on YouTube and you find
good videos on YouTube, go with that.
For me, I felt like mystudents liked my videos.
It felt personal.
Remember, so much of thisis about the human touch.
(24:17):
And also, I knew like my school hadcertain initiatives around our priorities,
and I knew the things my studentswere interested in when I taught math.
And so I thought I can createvideos that relate to my students
and fit in with other sort ofinstructional strategies at the school.
To me, it was worth the investmentto create my own videos.
(24:38):
And it's not a financial investment,by the way, all you need is a computer.
It's just an investment of time.
Yeah, I felt like if I take, if I take.
An hour after school to create twovideos, then I'll have these as long as
I teach, I won't need to do it again.
My students will appreciate it.
Great.
But sometimes, couldn't stay after school.
And so I would find a video fromYouTube and I would show my students
(24:59):
and sometimes they'd say, wow,that Khan Academy guy is so boring.
And sometimes they would say, wow,that Khan Academy guy is really clear.
He's way better than you, Mr.
Barnett.
So that variety is useful sometimes too.
Yeah, true.
Like even having a different, it's likehaving a different perspective, which
kind of leads me on to the, one of my lastquestions before I ask you the last one.
(25:23):
It's really, AI has become.
Fairly transformative over herein Ireland already with, a number
of teachers now using it forplanning and preparation and so on.
But what's really becoming quiteinteresting is video through AI.
Being able to make engaging videoswithout actually having to video anyone.
(25:43):
It's like text to video or so on.
Is this something that you think isgoing to help with what you're doing?
Or is it, do you still, do you thinkit will take away that human feel?
So it's funny you say that I'm actuallyworking on a, on an AI tool of my
own, which I'm calling InstaLesson.
And the idea is.
I find a lot of these AI tools tobe difficult to figure out how to
(26:05):
use, there's so many tools, andwhat they produce is often not that
effective because what they produceis a whole class lesson and I don't
believe in whole class instruction.
The tool I'm building called InstaLesson,it, you type in a topic and it produces
exactly what I've talked about.
It finds a video from YouTube.
It gives students practice activitiesthey can do together and it includes
(26:28):
a mastery check and I'm biased, butI think it's super simple to use.
It's free.
I think the output's really good.
So that's my tool.
And so I said, and I do think it can saveteachers planning time in creating not a
perfect lesson but a pretty good lesson.
In terms of AI createdvideos I have my eye on that.
(26:48):
I think it's.
I think it's promising and itcould work once the technology's
there, if teachers are comfortablewith an AI generated video.
Great.
I think what I'm really thinkingabout a lot is how does the
student spend their time in class?
Sorry, how does the teacherspend their time in class?
And how do we ensure that the studentspends their time appropriately
(27:10):
challenged and appropriately supported?
I don't love AI programsthat keep students on screen.
Talking with the chat bot, I don'tlike, I want students to get what
they need from the computer, closethe computer and work together.
But if AI helps the teacher create avideo or a mastery check or an Insta
(27:32):
lesson, so the teacher can spendhuman time with students and the
students are challenged and supported.
Great.
Fantastic.
No, that's, that makes loads of sense.
So I think I could talk to you for.
Hours more on this side.
There's so much.
I really just love that methodologythat you've come up with and
(27:52):
how it's working so well.
And before I leave you, I, we have athing on this podcast where we ask every
guest what they would do if they werethe Minister for Education in Ireland.
So I'm going to you.
Get a plane over to you, transport youover to Ireland, and you're going to be
in charge of the education system forone day where you can change one thing.
(28:14):
It doesn't have to relateto technology, but it can.
So what would you do if youwere the Minister for Education?
I've never been to Irelandand I'd love to come visit.
Although being the minister,it sounds stressful.
What I would do, and I say this knowingvery little about your education system
is I would get rid of age based education.
I think.
(28:35):
The fundamental problem is that weexpect everyone who's six years old to
learn the same thing at the same time.
And I think we do that becausewe believe it's efficient.
The teacher will explain, will givethis lesson Monday, this lesson
Tuesday, this lesson Wednesday.
But those six year olds or tenyear olds or whatever year old,
they all have different needs.
(28:56):
They all need different things.
When I think about my kids, I don't wantthem to learn what an average six year
old is supposed to learn on February 18th.
I want them to learn what is next forthem in the progression of learning.
They may be ahead of the pace,they may be behind the pace,
they may be right on pace.
(29:16):
I don't care.
I don't want them to beEducated based on their age.
I want them to be educated based ontheir needs and their interests and
their abilities and who they are.
And so I think we're at a point wherewe could, I'm not saying we put five
year olds in the class with 15 yearolds, we can still have primary schools
and secondary schools, but withinthose schools, I think we should think
(29:38):
about, can we be grouping studentsand giving them curriculum based on
their needs instead of their age?
That's what I want for my kids.
And if I can come to Ireland and putthat into place, maybe I'll move.
That would be amazing.
It's interesting because I mentionedthere earlier on the, that schools have
really changed relatively little intheir structure for the last 200 years.
(30:00):
And I think the missing ingredientof having technology to help
us along, because a model like.
You're proposing it?
I it's something that I've heard alittle bit about and there's definitely
movement towards it is really expensive.
So technology in a way to almostmake that affordable for governments,
I think is definitely worth it.
There's definitely a movement in thatwhere there's a, I dunno if you've heard
(30:22):
of the democratic schools movement.
I dunno if it's reached theStates, but in Europe it's becoming
something interesting for children.
Decide themselves whatthey're going to be learning.
And there's a democratic process.
It's really interesting.
So we're going to finish up now butwhere can people find you if they want
to reach out to you and learn a littlebit more about what you're doing?
Of course, modern classroomsproject is a nonprofit organization.
(30:44):
We make all of our materialsavailable for free.
And so if you go to modern classrooms.
org.
You can find everything you need.
I've just written a book.
It's called Meet Every Learner'sNeeds, and you can find more
at meeteverylearnersneeds.
org.
And then if you want to try thisin a way that's pretty accessible,
you should check out InstaLesson.
(31:04):
It's insta lesson.
com.
It's also free to use.
Might give you some ideas to get started.
So I hope that gives your listenersenough, at least to get started.
Absolutely.
Rob, thank you so much for talking to me.
I really enjoyed the conversationand the very, very best of luck with
all the projects as you're involvedin your, you seem like a really
innovative and interesting teacherand good luck with everything else.
(31:28):
I'm sure we'll be hearing moreprojects and please do keep in touch.
So that.
Was Rob Barnett from the ModernClassroom Project as well as InstaLesson.
And I will put all the linksto all the things that Rob has
mentioned to me in our show notes.
Thanks so much.
Thank you.
So there you have it, a reallyinteresting concept I think for
(31:49):
sure that Rob has come up with.
It's a very simple thing, I suppose onthe surface, I'm sure there's more to it,
just around having a video instructionso that you as the teacher can then spend
some time spend your time more effectivelygoing around the class, building the
relationships up with the pupils and if,and the instruction is always there for
them to see in school, outside of school.
(32:12):
And I do the idea, I'm tickled, bythe idea that it's your own teacher
who's on the video at the time.
I know Rob said it doesn't have to be but,an interesting way where you can build up
those relationships and save that time.
Because, one thing we all can agree on iswe don't have a lot of time and I'm really
interested in some of his other Ideasout there especially that Insta lesson.
I like, there's plenty of these lessonplanners that you can do with AI, but
(32:35):
this one does seem to be a bit moretargeted towards a particular learner.
So do check that out.
As I said, all of the links thatRob mentioned are on the show notes.
And I trust you will look at them.
Those another link you might consideris subscribing to my newsletter.
I'm also interested in using AI andI've developed a very short course
(32:56):
which is completely free to all ofour listeners and anyone else really
for that matter to show you how youcan code using AI without doing any
coding, it's called code without coding.
And you can find thattoo in the show notes.
That's it for me for this week.
Thanks so much for listeningall the very, very best.
Take care.
Bye bye.
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