April 21, 2025 • 39 mins
With the new MFL curriculum coming up, I thought I'd speak to someone who knows a thing or two about teaching languages. Róisín Brady from LanguageNut joined me to explain how she thinks the curriculum is going to work out.
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(00:01):
Hello, you are very welcome to if I werethe minister for education from on shot
dot net, a regular podcast where I diveinto the world of primary education in
Ireland and let you know what I woulddo if I were the minister for education.
This is Simon Lewis speaking.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to my fortnightly
(00:25):
newsletter, where I go through some ofthe news from Irish primary education
and beyond from my own perspective.
And I also give some hints and tips fromthe classroom, some technology tips and
other bonus materials that's at onshaw.
net slash subscribe.
I'm sure like many of you, youare wondering what the new modern
(00:48):
foreign languages curriculum subjectthat's going to be coming into the
primary curriculum in the next coupleof years is going to look like.
We haven't heard a lot of informationexcept for the fact that it's coming, so
I thought it would be a good idea to findsomebody who knows all about languages.
And I'm delighted today to be joinedby Rosin Brady, who is the head
(01:08):
of Irish schools at Language Nut.
And she's going to talk to us about thenew curriculum subject a little bit.
What she thinks is going tolook like which countries have
introduced foreign languages and.
Possibly badly and whatwe can learn from them.
And we're also going to explore a languagenote which is a fantastic app, which I've
had a little go up myself and learn alittle bit more how that might help us as
(01:31):
we begin our journey into teaching anotherlanguage that isn't English or Irish.
Or maybe you've had a tasteof another language as well.
And we'll see how that canmaybe enhance that too.
Ro you're so welcome to if Iwere the Minister for education.
Thanks, Simon.
Thanks Amelia for having me on.
I'm delighted to be here.
Great stuff.
So I always start off, it feels likean interview for a job, but maybe
(01:52):
you can tell us about yourself andyour journey to becoming the head of
the Irish Schools of Language Notes.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I started out doing applied languagesand intercultural studies at DCUI
then moved on and I did an M filland applied linguistics at Trinity.
I am also an EAL, Frenchand Spanish teacher.
(02:14):
I've worked at primary secondaryadult education and further
education and some third level.
I've been very involved in the, say, slanguages program since it began in 2022.
And I've actually rolled this out acrossa huge number of schools all over Dublin.
I've put together, the learningplans implemented them.
I've delivered it, I've overseen it,and I've actually used Language Nut
(02:36):
to deliver this as language programin a lot of schools, both as a
specialist and a non-specialist teacher.
Fantastic.
Wow.
Interesting.
That's a great summary of your past.
Very good.
So what we're gonna talk abouttoday is MFL, or as one of my
staff joked with me there it soundsmore like FML to US teachers.
That's a meme, which I can't repeat'cause it's got a rude word in it.
(02:56):
But what is, for those of us whodon't know at this stage, what is MFL?
MFL stands for modern Foreign Languages.
You know what we think of as what, when wego to secondary school, French, Spanish,
German, Italian, Spanish and so on.
Great stuff.
Okay.
And so it essentially European languagesas opposed to other languages that are,
(03:20):
doesn't have to be European languages.
What I've seen from schools acrossthe board who are participating
in the, say a language program.
Let's use those as an example maybe.
Because these are the samplemodules that schools are doing
on behalf of languages connected.
Kinda in preparation for the rolloutand implementation of MFL at primary.
It can be French, Spanish Europeanlanguage, but in my experience the
(03:42):
majority of schools have gone down theroad of French Spanish because that's
what's taught in the feeder schools.
But I've had huge demand for ISL.
Irish sign language and other schoolsare also teaching maybe Arabic, Mandarin,
and other languages that could maybehave that might be widely spoken in
their school community like Romanian.
Okay.
Okay.
So it, it doesn't, it, it doesn'tnecessarily mean it because
(04:04):
again, traditionally, certainlywhen I was in school the language
is an where, French German.
Spanish and maybe Italian, but I knowobviously that's expanded hugely.
Particularly it's expanded hugely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it doesn't have to justbe French and Spanish, but they
are the most requested languages.
And even when we look at othercountries like England and Scotland
who are rolling out similar programs,the most requested languages there
(04:27):
are French and Spanish as well.
Interesting.
I'm glad you mentioned England andScotland potentially and anywhere, any
of Britain, because I think they'revery similar context to us in Ireland
in that, we're native English speakersI guess in in, in our countries.
And in some ways we're paying, playing,catch up with everywhere else because most
other countries have their own language,whether that's a Spanish, French,
(04:51):
German, Romania, whatever, language.
But they tend to be really goodat certainly English, because I
suppose it, it's the internationallanguage but other languages as well.
So you mentioned that you'velooked at England and Scotland.
What have you learned fromthose two countries in terms
of what they've been doing?
Okay, so I've looked at England andScotland because like they, they're
(05:12):
the two countries that are closestto us and we are following the same
pattern, the same type of model as them.
Okay.
So I've looked at the languagetrends, England Language Trends,
Scotland Report had a look at it.
Obviously, language not is widelyused in England and Scotland for
primary school, MFL teaching.
(05:32):
I've seen is that overall,it's been very well received.
Very well received in Scotlandby students and teachers.
And in French and Spanish beingthe most requested languages here.
But the issues, let's say in England,any the barriers has been just limited
time to deliver the curriculum amongschools lack of teacher expertise.
(05:56):
And teacher shortages.
In England as well, they offer a lot ofMandarin, along with French and Spanish.
Okay.
In Scotland, the barriers, it isbeen very well received in Scotland
and there's been a huge amount ofenthusiasm among students, which
suggests great potential growth.
There again, but the barriers identifiedhave been teacher shortages, which will
affect the quality and consistency.
(06:18):
Of rolling out this initiativelimited curriculum time, which
leads to then reduced opportunities.
Okay.
So different there fromwhat we're seeing because.
When I have, I've been in so many primaryschools with this a s language program
and I've spoken to so many teachersand principals and the concerns there.
(06:38):
There are concerns there from teachersand principals in primary schools,
and they are that, how are we going todeliver this because we're not experts.
And how are we gonnahave the time to do this?
Because, we already have quite awide curriculum here to fit a day.
Yeah.
I suppose when we look at the primarylanguage curriculum, which is pulling
on this plural linguistic approach,what I would suggest is that, teachers
(07:02):
don't have a huge amount of time.
That's why, tools like languageare here to help you save time.
And to deliver authentic resourcelessons through great resources ready
made, that's gonna save you timeand support nonspecialist teachers.
But with the primary language curriculum,with this plural linguistic approach that
maybe if you're running out time, then.
Kind of, add in littlesnippets throughout the day.
(07:23):
Yes.
And foster that idea of languagelearning, pulling in with the pl
linguistic approach and other languagesspoken for that intercultural learning
aspect throughout the day, if you thinkyou're gonna run outta time for your
20 minutes or 30 minute allocation.
Okay.
Okay.
I think, and I'm not sure if most teachersfeel this way, but I certainly do.
One of the i, areas where I'm feelinga little bit anxious about this new
(07:45):
curriculum subject is that I don't speak.
Very many languages other than English,Irish, and a smattering of French.
And I can order a beerin Spain, but that's it.
I, and the odd word here andthere, I can swear in Polish, for
example, the, these kind things.
I'll get far,
(08:06):
but it's.
I think that's the struggle, particularlywhen I suppose you, I think of other
countries that where English isn'tthe first language and you have
children, age 10 and 11 coming toIreland speak, who are, I'm thinking
of Spanish students and they're wellable to hold up a conversation and my
fear is that, I am I, there'll be anexpectation on me as a teacher to get
(08:32):
the 10 and 11 year olds in my school.
Enough equipped to hold up aconversation in our language, and
given that I don't have even close towhatever the minimum, being able to,
beyond ordering a beer, as I said.
When we go back to the primarylanguage curriculum it is about
this idea of communication.
Okay.
So when we go, this will be rolledout to students from third class to
(08:53):
sixth class, and in third and fourthclass we'll be focusing mainly on
like oral and oral communication.
Okay?
This is how it's going to, how it'sgonna work, but a tool like language
not is here to support teachers becauseas I said, I've spoken to so many
teachers and that this is the concern.
How are we going to do it?
So if I talk to you a little bitabout like how Language Note can
(09:15):
help you do this Language Note isan interactive language learning
platform and it's designed forlanguage teachers and students.
Okay.
So we have primary resourcesin over 20 languages.
Okay.
Including French, Spanish, Italian,as well as Mandarin and Arabic.
And we have open resources whichcover vocabulary lists, phonics and
games, grammar and verbs, sentencebuilding principles and lesson plans.
(09:38):
Ready made lesson plans.
Okay?
Ready made resources all there for you.
Then we also have a fullyresourced, primary guided course
for French and Spanish, whichare the most requested languages.
And that's designed particularlyfor non-specialist teachers.
So you've had a littlelook on the platform.
You'll see how it works.
There's audio built in into the platform.
(10:01):
So for example a non-specialistteacher can actually just go onto
the primary guided course andthey can go slide by slide, lesson
by lesson without even having toplan, and it's all done for them.
If, and you don't have to followthe course, you can actually go
in and you can look at the lessonplans and pull out what you like.
It's all there.
(10:21):
We have vocabulary, flashcards,and it's all interactive.
You can play this front of classand there's the built in audio, so
you don't even have to say wordsthat you're not comfortable saying.
And be afraid of, oh, I'mgoing to be teaching, students
incorrect pronunciation.
Because the audio is builtin, so like for example, if we
have up Spanish flash cards.
Based on say greetings, Allah,the students will then repeat
(10:44):
Allah, and it's all there.
They're gonna repeat whatthey're hearing all the time.
Okay.
So teachers don't haveto worry about that.
Even when we're doing anythingin class, you can put up in the
interactive board and students willjust repeat what they're hearing there.
Okay.
And then we have English asa support language there.
It's all done for you in the sense thatyou have that support, that it's ready
made resources, ready made lesson plans,and we'll go through everything about
(11:07):
this is what you're going to learn.
Here's the vocabularyyou're going to learn.
Here are some support extensionexercises for you to do.
And in terms of that, we're working thenagain, with mixed ability differentiation.
That all ties back into the curriculum.
Okay.
The, I'm sure you probably sawwhen you saw the platform, it's
it works very well for everybody.
So students in the class whohave any additional needs,
(11:29):
we have it's very visual.
We have additional support therewith a need, a hint section where
students who can, they just can listenorally to the English translation
and in the target language.
We have extra features there,like a little snail that
will slow the audio down.
This will also help teachers.
Yeah.
Okay.
One thing I should say is that in termsof so a language that's there to not only
(11:51):
support the students, but there, it'sthere to support non-specialist teachers.
May Youth University are runningtheir first elective upskilling course
for primary students at the moment,and they're actually using language.
Okay.
To upskill for this elective courseto upskill the students language,
not, is not only a tool that can beused here for, delivering interactive
(12:12):
and fun engaging lessons to studentsfrom non-specialist teachers.
It can be used as a tool toupskill our teachers as well.
Okay.
Would it be fair to say for someone likeme if I, my, my principal buys language
nut for the school and I haven't done any.
Real CPD on languages that Ican almost learn the language.
(12:33):
As the children are learning the languageor at least be one step ahead like you're
leaving certain maths teacher as theclassic example, they're always just one
page ahead of the students kind of thing.
, absolutely.
This is going to be an investmentnot only for the school in terms of
allowing the students to progressin their language learning journey.
It's gonna be an.
Yeah.
You like, if a school, for example,decides we're gonna sign up to
(12:55):
language, not, and a lot of schoolsare in Ireland are doing that now.
We have hundreds of schools all overEngland and Scotland are using language.
Not for this reason because ofthe element of the non-specialist
teachers there to support them, but.
If schools in Ireland sign up tolanguage, not it's, you're already,
you're set up with resources readyto go to deliver authentic and
(13:16):
engaging lessons to your students.
But teachers can then usethis as their upskilling tool.
You can do it together,you can do it self-paced.
Very good.
I wonder and this is just a curiosityreally more than anything else.
There, there might besome people who might say.
We're expected to be fluent inIrish even if we don't speak it.
(13:37):
And are we going to be good enoughto teach, let's say another language
if we don't know the language andwe're learning as we go along.
What would you say to people who mightsay, look this is, this is something that.
They should, that thatthey're worried about.
Because I suppose at the base ofall Irish primary school teachers,
or at least most of us, are able tospeak Irish to reasonably high level.
(14:00):
And therefore you can tailor thelessons a little better and be a bit
more flexible when you don't speak thelanguage that you're trying to teach.
What they, there may be a concernthere of, I'm just gonna have to follow
along here, almost language by numbers.
In, in a way.
I, is that what would yousay to people like that?
I would say to them, I said I reallyappreciate it because, you are being
(14:23):
thrown in the deep end a little bit.
Okay.
So I.
I understand how difficult it is.
There are a huge amount of teachers outthere who do actually have a primary
degree in a modern foreign language.
You'll be surprised.
Okay.
Yeah.
But again, there are those who don't.
I would say, even going back to thisidea of the primary language curriculum,
as teachers yourselves, think backto this and draw on the experiences
(14:45):
from the languages that you know.
Most of us have done a modernforeign language for leaving cert.
Yeah.
And that is in the back of your head?
Okay.
That is there.
That's dormant.
So when you go in, so for example, it'sFrench, which most of us have probably
done until up until leaving cer.
When you go on and you look at languagenotes and you look at the start off,
the, basic greetings, flash cardsand sentence building exercises,
(15:07):
phonics to get, your ear goinghere, it will bring it back to you.
You will remember it.
Think of it that way, thatyou are actually ahead here.
You have done this until leaving start.
Yeah.
Most of the students in your classhaven't, but because the platform
is so strong at supporting thenon-specialist teachers through audio.
And that's all done foryou, that embedded audio.
(15:30):
You can be repeating that.
You can be listening to that yourself.
You're always gonna be one step ahead.
'cause you'll know what you're goingto be delivering in the class that day.
It is quite like, if I'm honest likeI the first one I went to was I to do
a French lesson and there's this gameon it called Where you pop bubbles.
Oh yeah.
And ISI can't remember exactly what it.
(15:52):
Over 20 years since I studied French.
But I've been to France a couple oftimes and I'm always, I'm often slightly
surprised by how much I remember.
But I also dismayed by how frustrating.
It's that I can't remember most ofthe stuff I learned, obviously, but
at the same time I got a hundredpercent in the first, lesson.
So it, I get that's me bragging nowhere, but then I moved on like to
Arabic, which I've never spoken before.
I can't read it becauseobviously it's and so on.
(16:15):
And I guess I found myself going.
I gave up a little bit, so I, I just,and also, look I wasn't invested in
learning Arabic really, to be honest.
So that's probably no, probably why.
This is probably why as well.
When we look at the Say Yes toLanguages program and we look at
what's happening in England andScotland, why is French why is it that
French and Spanish are being chosen?
Most likely because theseare, the languages have been.
(16:38):
Studied, most by primary schoolteachers and maybe in some cases German.
'cause we do have some schoolshere who have signed up to
language not to deliver German.
Yes.
'cause I have a teacher in theclass who may have done German
to leave and search and so on.
Yeah.
So maybe this is why, the primaryguided course in French and
Spanish is, it's an excellent tool.
Like I've used it myself, even as aspecialist teacher, you just go on and
(16:59):
it will tell you your learning outcomes.
This is what we're going learntoday, class, and then we move on.
What I should just to you as I.
Spoke there.
Previously just about students inyour class with additional needs.
That word pop game is a greatexample of how we can cater
to everybody in the classroom.
For example, you might not haveseen this when you're on that game.
The bubbles move quite fast.
(17:20):
Yes.
Just for anybody listening, youhave to basically click the bubble,
which matches the translationof the words you're being asked.
And the bubbles move very fast.
So there's a little snail iconif you click on the snail.
Once the bubbles slow down.
Yeah, if you click the snailtwice, they stop completely.
And we purposely have a whitebackground with black writing.
(17:40):
So that means that any studentswith a learning difference like
dyslexia, they can work veryeasily with this, or a dyspraxia
or just any other additional needs.
And then we have the need a hintsection, which students can go up.
And they can look at, and teachers whenthey're learning as well, can do this too.
And they can listen to Bonjour, andthen it'll say, hello, good morning.
And, you can do things hourly.
(18:01):
Yes.
Because there is a big focus in primaryschool even when we're looking at EAL
maybe just doing things hourly, listening.
Yes, absolutely.
I, and actually I tried one of theactivities where you had to speak
the thing and, 'cause I wanted totest whether it would understand
my dreadful French accents when Iwas, one, one of the quizzes where
you have to speak and whether itwould understand what I was saying.
(18:22):
And it worked like quite well.
Like I tried to trick it a couple oftimes and I succeeded a couple of times.
But if I went at, for example, ifI was supposed to say, and I said.
Hell app, they, they, itwouldn't understand it.
But if I went one week, maybeit did, so it, yeah, but at the
same time it was good enough.
It was actually surprisingly good, for,so you know, for what you're supposed
(18:43):
to be doing, I think as well, becauseI've used language, not myself in the
primary school classroom, I do think andI've been in the primary school, this
classroom, there's great enthusiasm.
Among primary school students when they'vecarried out the a s to languages when
they're doing it, and they're very excitedabout being able to have a conversation.
(19:04):
Students will, go out after a fewlessons having these words, because
when you look at what's on the platformit's encouraging, oral communication.
Yes.
In the language from the get go.
Again, it all ties back into that ideaof the primary language curriculum.
It's encouraging communicationat those very early stages.
Yes.
And there is even a part on theprimary guided course where it'll
(19:26):
just say conversation in classand you can just click on it'll.
And you just click on those things.
If you're doing it in French, studentswill repeat them and then you say, okay
guys, let's go around the classroom.
Let's practice thistogether with a group work.
And you'll be, it's amazing that bythe end of the first lesson, students
are able to say their name, sayhello, and maybe ask somebody else
(19:48):
their name and they practice it.
Yes.
It's great to see.
Okay.
So I wanna delve a littlemore into language.
Not really.
And I think we've got a goodoverview so far of what it is.
I, in a way, what it does and we'vetalked about the teachers like how
a teacher might use it, and even alittle bit on how students use it.
So I'm gonna give you abit of a scenario, okay?
(20:10):
I'm basically it's simple enough.
I'm I'm a teacher.
I have been given language up bymy principal to, and I've been told
we're, you're doing Italian and Ihave a word of Italian 'cause this
is what our school are gonna do.
We go on a school trip in sixthclass Didly, or whatever it is.
And it'd be great if we have a few, a bitof Italian going or whatever it might be.
(20:31):
How do I suppose what I'm interestedin is what's the teacher's experience
of language note, and then maybe whatwill the students' experience be?
And I know at times there'll be alesson, but there'll also be times
where there might be times forpractice, let's say, for the students.
So how does maybe give I suppose ashort overview of that, if that's okay.
(20:51):
I would start off as the teacher.
First of all, it depends.
You can use language notes ina variety of different ways.
It's so versatile.
You can use it front of classon your interactive board.
If you're a school who hasaccess to devices, you can set
your students up on devices.
Each student will get their ownunique username and password.
And, then you just addyour classes on here.
(21:12):
So you basically, you could have languagein front of class, you could have students
on devices working independently aswell, and differentiated activities.
Depending on, they're working on, butlet's just go with the more simple idea
here of, we're front of class, we bringup class one greetings in Italian.
Okay, so what you'll do is you'llbring up those vocabulary flashcards.
What you can do is you can, you cantake off the English translation, you
(21:35):
can take off the written Italian, andyou can just do it hourly if you like.
But it's nice for the studentsto, to see the words as well.
You can press play and, but will happenis the students will be brought through
kind of general vocabulary for greetings.
Let's say, hello, goodmorning, good evening.
And they would play on the board andstudents would repeat after each of those.
(21:56):
Okay.
You can do that a few times.
Then you can take off theEnglish translation and
you can test the knowledge.
That way you just keep pressing the audioand it will come up to the students.
Then you would move on to thepractice exercises, again,
covering four components, reading,writing, listening, and speaking.
Then you can decide whichgame you're going to go into.
So you can go through thedifferent games on the board.
(22:17):
There's your matching gamesmultiple choice games, like
just to match up everything.
It's all auto graded as well.
So if students are doingthis on their own devices.
They're going to get instant feedbackabout what they're getting Correct.
What they're getting incorrect.
Okay.
And everything that the students do onthe platform, by the way, they get points.
Okay.
So it's a great motivator for them.
You can set homework onthe platform as well.
(22:37):
Again, it can be differentiated ifyou want, and then they can go home
and they can work on their individualdevices to complete the homework.
So that's how it wouldlook like in the class.
For the teacher, you would havethis already planned, but you can
add assignments onto the platform.
You can build up a library of assignmentsto assign out to your students, but
if you're gonna use it front to class,you can just decide, you actually go in
(22:57):
and look at a lesson plan, for example.
Yes.
Okay, you can just gointo vocabulary, Italians.
Very first one, greetings or basics,and you click on the lesson plan and
it will show you everything there.
You could follow that stepby step yourself, okay?
Okay.
Okay.
Even with no Italian, butyou have a lesson plan.
You're going in armed withthis knowledge and you flash
(23:24):
French.
And I would say Ola.
And I'd be doing itwith the class as well.
Yes.
There's also little songs and storiesas well on the platform there that
you can play great for the students.
When I've done the Say a program, I'vealways really started a class and ended
a class with a song, always the same one.
Every time.
Okay.
'cause then by the end of the coursethey can sing along, they know it
(23:46):
and they have some words, yeah.
Fantastic.
They some words.
Yeah.
And it's reinforcing the wordsthat they've already used.
Exactly.
So that's, it's gonna support youin that way because you're going in
armed with ready-made resources anda lesson plan and the support of
the platform and the built in audio.
You don't really have to do anythingbut click on the students to repeat.
(24:07):
Very good.
And then you can walk around the classroomand, practice a conversation and so on.
You can get the students up tothe board if you touch Screenboard
and practice the exercises.
So you'd have matching games.
Like I might say, Bonjour,and you have to say, click.
Hello, goodbye.
Good afternoon.
Good morning.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
Everything is also, is always going tobe reinforced with the audio, everything.
(24:29):
Brilliant.
Because it's important, especiallyat that kind of third, fourth class,
we're gonna be focusing a lot onoral communication, speaking in this.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I have a couple morelittle questions for you.
I think maybe a fear of some teachers isthat they're, they don't know what level.
They're going to need tobring the children up to.
I think there might be a fear of, I knowmaybe unfounded, I suppose in, in, in
(24:52):
Irish you're almost, I don't think weexpect the children to be fluent in Irish
by the time they leave primary school.
But for whatever reason, there'sthis sort of expectation that
they'll need to at least beconversational in particular language.
How far will something likelanguage not bring a teacher?
And their class.
By the end, let's say of six class,what would you expect children to be
(25:13):
able to do with four years language?
If we, I dunno if you're familiar withthe CEF or, the common European framework
for reference of languages, that'smeasured with can-do statements and I
think this is actually something that.
Is really important maybe forprimary school teachers to look at.
Yes, because if you look atthose can do statements, that's
a really great measuring tool.
(25:34):
I can say my name, I cangive basic information about
myself, abeginner, a one.
So I would say, again,it depends on the group.
Students are gonna be very enthusiasticabout this 'cause they are with
the say the Languages program.
Sure.
I would say, it's a hard question to,to pull outta the air with levels,
that yourself as a teacher, but itcould be up to maybe level A too.
(25:55):
Because I do think, and again, we arewe haven't been given a huge amount of
information on this for the Department ofEducation, but third and fourth class is
going to be mainly general conversation,a focus on intercultural learning, which
I should say, if you follow the primaryguided course for any of the resources,
there is an element of interculturallearning with kind of topics.
(26:16):
About the country foreach section as well.
Yeah.
Okay.
And because that is importantas well to know and, students
will like to hear about the.
The language that spoken in thecountry that they're learning
about, little snippets about that.
But it's difficult to predict.
But third and fourth class,it's gonna be very basic.
Very basic, and if we're focusingon greetings, basic information,
(26:39):
colors, that kind of idea, youcan just keep reinforcing that.
And they will with the tool like languagebecause the, it's so strong with the
practice of reading, writing, listening,speaking and there's so much on it there.
I think that, after third andfourth class, there's no reason,
but there would be like, an A one.
Level.
Okay.
(26:59):
And for those of us who aren't EELteachers or haven't delved into language
learning, sorry, a one and a two I justto for listeners who don't know what
that means what kind of level is that?
A one is a complete beginner,but you can give information.
General information, basicinformation about yourself.
A two then is the level upfrom that building on it.
Okay.
So they're the beginner levels.
(27:20):
Okay.
Okay.
B one, B two.
B one is like low intermediate,B two and high intermediate.
Fantastic.
Yeah, that's that, that's great.
But again, it's hard toput, to measure progress.
It's very difficult to I to do, Iknow that, I remember even when I was
teaching English as a, an additionallanguage when back in the day that,
you were dividing the, the kidsinto different groups and, even at
that point, it was difficult whetherthey were, lower intermediate, yeah.
(27:42):
Hired and then, the different agegroup, it's a, you won't have that.
You won't have the.
The choice of who's going tobe in front of you either.
So there'll be all sorts of levels, alland, and all sorts of abilities and so on.
We're told when we look at the primarylanguage curriculum that, fourth and
fifth and sixth class, they will be movingon to maybe more grammatical structure.
Little bit more difficult.
Third, fourth class is verybasic oral communication.
(28:05):
Fifth and sixth will move on a little bit.
Very good.
Great And language note can bring themthat, bring them all the way to that
language note, can bring them thatlanguage note can bring them even further.
Okay.
Like it, it's all there, it'sall there for the taking, it
can bring them really quite far.
Yeah.
No, that's quite assurereassuring I think in a way.
And I know we're both shooting inthe dark a little bit 'cause we
(28:25):
haven't got the guidance yet fromthe Department of Education, but it.
It's I feel you're probably right thatit's going to be most likely to that
level rather than, I suppose maybe.
Again, I'm thinking back to all the, allthese Europeans that I meet who come to
Ireland with the like, phenomenal Englishand I and I'm just going, oh my gosh, I
wish I could, I wish my Irish is as goodas your English is, that kind of thing.
(28:45):
But I think, yeah, I think we'restepping stones maybe at this stage.
For.
I think you're probably right.
I suppose it leads me to mynext question and be which is
are you confident that this newcurriculum subject is going to work?
I.
I am very passionate about it.
Okay?
Simply because this is whatI've done for the last 20 years.
(29:06):
I've been so involved in Yeah.
Promoting languagelearning and everything.
And, I've been so involved in CSlanguage problem since it began.
I have two children myself.
And, we're constantly kind of build onlanguage skills there, but I, yeah I
am confident, but it has to be right.
Teachers have to be armedwith the right tools.
It's about tools, teachers,there are many teachers who are
(29:27):
not skills in another language.
So they have to be armedwith the right tools.
And th this is why.
And to be honest, this is why I came onboard with the language nurse, because
I could see what this was happening.
And I saw this platform, this tool that Ijust thought, oh my God, this is amazing.
We need to have this in Ireland.
Yeah.
They're using it all over Scotland andprimary schools and secondary schools.
(29:48):
I should add as well, if anysecondary school teachers out there.
Yeah.
But this has been used all overEngland and Scotland following the
same model that we're going to follow.
And the feedback is reallypositive, schools are using
this, we should be using it.
That's why I got involved and it's just.
And then I got to test it outmyself in the primary classroom.
And I could see how effective it was.
(30:10):
I could see the response ofthe students I can see as well.
I think that when we're using such aninteractive, visually visual tool that
when you're moving around the classroomencouraging students to speak, this isn't
just about, like just right all the time.
This is about listening,speaking, communicating.
(30:33):
Fantastic.
And I really have been so impressedwith the work I've already done
with schools all over Dublin.
Using language notes to bring studentsup to a nice little conversational level.
Be able to give basic information.
My name is my ages.
I live, talk with their family,no colors, numbers, all of these.
(30:57):
Yeah, for sure.
Okay.
My last question I always ask anyonewho comes on the show is the one
that everybody dreads, which is ifyou were the Ministry of Education.
So you have the reigns for a day,you can do whatever you want, it's
a dictatorship, and you can do onething to the, to, to primary schools.
So what is it that you would like to doif you were the Minister for Education?
(31:17):
And it doesn't have to do withlanguages, but it sure can be.
It
listening to this.
But if I were the Minister for Education,I would ensure that all primary schools in
Ireland were signed up to language notesto ensure basically that implementation
(31:41):
of MFL at primary level is a success.
Okay.
It has to be successful.
We've we've spent so much time now rollingthis out in sample modules, and the only
way for this to be a success and for
tool.
Success to me means that teachers aresupported with a teaching and learning
(32:02):
tool that enables them to deliverinteractive and engaging lessons
while students are also engaged andmotivating and enjoying the language
learning process and experience.
Okay.
Again, this can be usedfor teacher upskilling.
I should just point out as well that.
Language note can be availed off forfree by second year PME students.
(32:29):
Fantastic.
That is credible.
Great opportunity to get used tousing the net tech tool and maybe a
little bit of upskilling for yourself.
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
So this is sounding much more promisingto me than it was before I talked to you.
To be honest with you, I was startedmy interview with you full of dread
that I was gonna have to becomefluent in 20 different languages.
(32:49):
And maybe perhaps this conversation wouldends up starting in English and going
to French to German, then to Arabic,and then I'd be all, all over the place.
But
school teachers listeningto this conversation.
We'll feel the same.
Yeah.
That's the point.
There's something thereto help you, so use it.
Exactly.
(33:09):
Exactly.
So if people do want to find you and orask you any questions or connect with
you any way and maybe find out a littlebit more mi more about Language Note,
what's the best way they can get in touch?
Get in touch at roche@languagenut.com.
I'd be really happy to,have a chat with you.
The best thing to do is actuallyto come onto a personalized demo.
Where I can show you around theplatform, answer any questions you
(33:30):
have, and then I'd give you a twoweek free trial to try this out with
your students or have little play.
Fantastic.
And I, I just wanna say thankyou so much for coming out.
It's really interesting particularly,because it is something that a lot
of teachers are talking about at themoment and I think, you've given me
a lot of reassurance and I'm sureyou'll have done the same for any of
the teachers listening in for this.
(33:50):
Thanks so much roi.
Thanks for having me, Simon.
Really enjoyed it.
Thanks.
So there you have a veryinteresting conversation.
I hope you'll agree there.
Between myself and Rosin, I mustadmit, I went into this conversation
feeling rather cynical about thenew curriculum subject that's going
to be the modern foreign languages.
And I've come out of it a littlebit more confident than I was and.
(34:14):
Since recording this with Rosin, I'vebeen very lucky to have visited another
country on an Erasmus Plus trip where Iwent to Denmark to find out what they do.
And one of the things I wasinterested in was how they work
with modern foreign languages.
And it's interesting that English, Isuppose, is a foreign language in Denmark.
(34:36):
But it's taught from the very start.
And I think that's very similar to mostEuropean countries where they have their
own language and English, and they speakEnglish quite fluently, but they also
teach either French or German from aroundfifth class, fourth or fifth class.
I, I couldn't figure out what, what itwas, but around fourth or fifth class,
(34:57):
which was, was quite interesting.
But the level that's expected of themis very similar to what Rosin was
kind of, and going on about there.
And when I thought about it, I had thisreally interesting conversation with the
principal of the school and he was tellingme that some children come into primary
school in Denmark, not speaking Danish.
They actually speakEnglish at home with their.
(35:19):
Parents and their parents are actuallyDanish that English is starting to
take over from the Danish language.
So they actually have to reteach Danishand they're in a kind of this interesting
sort of position that Ireland kind ofhas long gone past where most people
in Ireland speak English at home andthen they're taught Irish when they
come to school and to, you know,to various degrees of fluency and.
(35:44):
I kind of feel like maybe in 10, 15years, so maybe a generation's time in
Denmark, you're gonna have a very similarsituation to where Ireland is right
now, which is everyone speaking English.
But learning Irish in schooland being somewhat decent at it
by the end of primary school, Ithink you're gonna have something.
Well, I dunno if you'll have somethingsimilar in Denmark, because everything
(36:05):
was taught through Danish and insome ways what they have in Denmark.
Is they've got the equivalent ofthe grail skull as the default.
Whereas in Ireland, we've goneso far down the line away from
the Irish language that the grailskull is actually not the default.
And maybe that's where we needto be striving for if we're going
to I I suppose just to give acomparison, and the other thing it
taught me really in a way is we do.
(36:27):
Have a foreign language thatwe already teach in Ireland and
that we already use in Ireland.
And yes, it's the English language.
In some ways it's not very, I'm nottrying to sound patriotic here, but
it was when I thought about the wayyoung Danish children are speaking
English as their first language andDanish as their second language, I
kind of thought, gosh, in a way that'skind of where we should be at, and.
(36:53):
I suppose by the end of primaryschool we, we do have two languages,
Irish and English, or we should havetwo languages, Irish and English.
Very much like most othercountries in Europe who have
their own language and English.
And they might have a third language.
And I think that's where we're going to.
And the third language, I thinkis taught to a much lower level,
so that level A two or B one levelthat Rosin was going on about.
(37:15):
So look.
I mean, I just thought that was aninteresting aside from my travels
when I was, when I was there.
And I dunno what you think yourself itmight be, might be worth considering,
but I certainly, Roe's conversationwith me certainly has gave me
a lot of, a lot to think about.
I'm certainly less nervousabout the subject coming
into the curriculum because.
In some ways I probably have enoughFrench, despite having not spoken
(37:39):
French for nearly over 20 yearsto be able to teach the basics.
You know, I understand 'em and I learncan learn along with the children.
And I think, you know, while it's notideal, I mean ideally it would be lovely
for to have native French speakers,native German speakers, native Spanish
speakers, native, any speakers comingin and teaching the language well.
And do doing well and making childrenmuch more fluent in more languages.
(38:03):
But I don't know if that's going to bethe intention of this new curriculum.
I'm not sure if that's a pityor if that's just the way it is.
And I suppose I'll leave thatquestion hanging because I.
You know, I might havemy own opinions on that.
I'm not sure what yours are.
So that's it for me for this week.
I hope you enjoyed the interview.
I certainly did.
As I said, it really gave me a lotof food for thought, as they say.
(38:27):
And I hope my little anecdote atthe end may have given you a little
bit extra to think about as well.
Listen, thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to it.
And I will see you very soon.
Well, before I go I'm thinking of settingup a second podcast of a series of very
short podcast, which will be AI generated.
But I'm hoping you won't knowtheir AI generation really.
(38:51):
I found this really good tool and lookingto play along with it and seeing if I
can do some interesting things with it.
So keep an eye out forthat on the on shot.net
podcast series, but from this one,if I were the Minister for Education.
Thanks for listening.
All the very best.
Bye-bye.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
(39:11):
Yeah.
Hello, you are very welcome to if I werethe minister for education from on shot
dot net, a regular podcast where I diveinto the world of primary education in
Ireland and let you know what I woulddo if I were the minister for education.
This is Simon Lewis speaking.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to my fortnightly
(00:25):
newsletter, where I go through some ofthe news from Irish primary education
and beyond from my own perspective.
And I also give some hints and tips fromthe classroom, some technology tips and
other bonus materials that's at onshaw.
net slash subscribe.
I'm sure like many of you, youare wondering what the new modern
(00:48):
foreign languages curriculum subjectthat's going to be coming into the
primary curriculum in the next coupleof years is going to look like.
We haven't heard a lot of informationexcept for the fact that it's coming, so
I thought it would be a good idea to findsomebody who knows all about languages.
And I'm delighted today to be joinedby Rosin Brady, who is the head
(01:08):
of Irish schools at Language Nut.
And she's going to talk to us about thenew curriculum subject a little bit.
What she thinks is going tolook like which countries have
introduced foreign languages and.
Possibly badly and whatwe can learn from them.
And we're also going to explore a languagenote which is a fantastic app, which I've
had a little go up myself and learn alittle bit more how that might help us as
(01:31):
we begin our journey into teaching anotherlanguage that isn't English or Irish.
Or maybe you've had a tasteof another language as well.
And we'll see how that canmaybe enhance that too.
Ro you're so welcome to if Iwere the Minister for education.
Thanks, Simon.
Thanks Amelia for having me on.
I'm delighted to be here.
Great stuff.
So I always start off, it feels likean interview for a job, but maybe
(01:52):
you can tell us about yourself andyour journey to becoming the head of
the Irish Schools of Language Notes.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I started out doing applied languagesand intercultural studies at DCUI
then moved on and I did an M filland applied linguistics at Trinity.
I am also an EAL, Frenchand Spanish teacher.
(02:14):
I've worked at primary secondaryadult education and further
education and some third level.
I've been very involved in the, say, slanguages program since it began in 2022.
And I've actually rolled this out acrossa huge number of schools all over Dublin.
I've put together, the learningplans implemented them.
I've delivered it, I've overseen it,and I've actually used Language Nut
(02:36):
to deliver this as language programin a lot of schools, both as a
specialist and a non-specialist teacher.
Fantastic.
Wow.
Interesting.
That's a great summary of your past.
Very good.
So what we're gonna talk abouttoday is MFL, or as one of my
staff joked with me there it soundsmore like FML to US teachers.
That's a meme, which I can't repeat'cause it's got a rude word in it.
(02:56):
But what is, for those of us whodon't know at this stage, what is MFL?
MFL stands for modern Foreign Languages.
You know what we think of as what, when wego to secondary school, French, Spanish,
German, Italian, Spanish and so on.
Great stuff.
Okay.
And so it essentially European languagesas opposed to other languages that are,
(03:20):
doesn't have to be European languages.
What I've seen from schools acrossthe board who are participating
in the, say a language program.
Let's use those as an example maybe.
Because these are the samplemodules that schools are doing
on behalf of languages connected.
Kinda in preparation for the rolloutand implementation of MFL at primary.
It can be French, Spanish Europeanlanguage, but in my experience the
(03:42):
majority of schools have gone down theroad of French Spanish because that's
what's taught in the feeder schools.
But I've had huge demand for ISL.
Irish sign language and other schoolsare also teaching maybe Arabic, Mandarin,
and other languages that could maybehave that might be widely spoken in
their school community like Romanian.
Okay.
Okay.
So it, it doesn't, it, it doesn'tnecessarily mean it because
(04:04):
again, traditionally, certainlywhen I was in school the language
is an where, French German.
Spanish and maybe Italian, but I knowobviously that's expanded hugely.
Particularly it's expanded hugely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it doesn't have to justbe French and Spanish, but they
are the most requested languages.
And even when we look at othercountries like England and Scotland
who are rolling out similar programs,the most requested languages there
(04:27):
are French and Spanish as well.
Interesting.
I'm glad you mentioned England andScotland potentially and anywhere, any
of Britain, because I think they'revery similar context to us in Ireland
in that, we're native English speakersI guess in in, in our countries.
And in some ways we're paying, playing,catch up with everywhere else because most
other countries have their own language,whether that's a Spanish, French,
(04:51):
German, Romania, whatever, language.
But they tend to be really goodat certainly English, because I
suppose it, it's the internationallanguage but other languages as well.
So you mentioned that you'velooked at England and Scotland.
What have you learned fromthose two countries in terms
of what they've been doing?
Okay, so I've looked at England andScotland because like they, they're
(05:12):
the two countries that are closestto us and we are following the same
pattern, the same type of model as them.
Okay.
So I've looked at the languagetrends, England Language Trends,
Scotland Report had a look at it.
Obviously, language not is widelyused in England and Scotland for
primary school, MFL teaching.
(05:32):
I've seen is that overall,it's been very well received.
Very well received in Scotlandby students and teachers.
And in French and Spanish beingthe most requested languages here.
But the issues, let's say in England,any the barriers has been just limited
time to deliver the curriculum amongschools lack of teacher expertise.
(05:56):
And teacher shortages.
In England as well, they offer a lot ofMandarin, along with French and Spanish.
Okay.
In Scotland, the barriers, it isbeen very well received in Scotland
and there's been a huge amount ofenthusiasm among students, which
suggests great potential growth.
There again, but the barriers identifiedhave been teacher shortages, which will
affect the quality and consistency.
(06:18):
Of rolling out this initiativelimited curriculum time, which
leads to then reduced opportunities.
Okay.
So different there fromwhat we're seeing because.
When I have, I've been in so many primaryschools with this a s language program
and I've spoken to so many teachersand principals and the concerns there.
(06:38):
There are concerns there from teachersand principals in primary schools,
and they are that, how are we going todeliver this because we're not experts.
And how are we gonnahave the time to do this?
Because, we already have quite awide curriculum here to fit a day.
Yeah.
I suppose when we look at the primarylanguage curriculum, which is pulling
on this plural linguistic approach,what I would suggest is that, teachers
(07:02):
don't have a huge amount of time.
That's why, tools like languageare here to help you save time.
And to deliver authentic resourcelessons through great resources ready
made, that's gonna save you timeand support nonspecialist teachers.
But with the primary language curriculum,with this plural linguistic approach that
maybe if you're running out time, then.
Kind of, add in littlesnippets throughout the day.
(07:23):
Yes.
And foster that idea of languagelearning, pulling in with the pl
linguistic approach and other languagesspoken for that intercultural learning
aspect throughout the day, if you thinkyou're gonna run outta time for your
20 minutes or 30 minute allocation.
Okay.
Okay.
I think, and I'm not sure if most teachersfeel this way, but I certainly do.
One of the i, areas where I'm feelinga little bit anxious about this new
(07:45):
curriculum subject is that I don't speak.
Very many languages other than English,Irish, and a smattering of French.
And I can order a beerin Spain, but that's it.
I, and the odd word here andthere, I can swear in Polish, for
example, the, these kind things.
I'll get far,
(08:06):
but it's.
I think that's the struggle, particularlywhen I suppose you, I think of other
countries that where English isn'tthe first language and you have
children, age 10 and 11 coming toIreland speak, who are, I'm thinking
of Spanish students and they're wellable to hold up a conversation and my
fear is that, I am I, there'll be anexpectation on me as a teacher to get
(08:32):
the 10 and 11 year olds in my school.
Enough equipped to hold up aconversation in our language, and
given that I don't have even close towhatever the minimum, being able to,
beyond ordering a beer, as I said.
When we go back to the primarylanguage curriculum it is about
this idea of communication.
Okay.
So when we go, this will be rolledout to students from third class to
(08:53):
sixth class, and in third and fourthclass we'll be focusing mainly on
like oral and oral communication.
Okay?
This is how it's going to, how it'sgonna work, but a tool like language
not is here to support teachers becauseas I said, I've spoken to so many
teachers and that this is the concern.
How are we going to do it?
So if I talk to you a little bitabout like how Language Note can
(09:15):
help you do this Language Note isan interactive language learning
platform and it's designed forlanguage teachers and students.
Okay.
So we have primary resourcesin over 20 languages.
Okay.
Including French, Spanish, Italian,as well as Mandarin and Arabic.
And we have open resources whichcover vocabulary lists, phonics and
games, grammar and verbs, sentencebuilding principles and lesson plans.
(09:38):
Ready made lesson plans.
Okay?
Ready made resources all there for you.
Then we also have a fullyresourced, primary guided course
for French and Spanish, whichare the most requested languages.
And that's designed particularlyfor non-specialist teachers.
So you've had a littlelook on the platform.
You'll see how it works.
There's audio built in into the platform.
(10:01):
So for example a non-specialistteacher can actually just go onto
the primary guided course andthey can go slide by slide, lesson
by lesson without even having toplan, and it's all done for them.
If, and you don't have to followthe course, you can actually go
in and you can look at the lessonplans and pull out what you like.
It's all there.
(10:21):
We have vocabulary, flashcards,and it's all interactive.
You can play this front of classand there's the built in audio, so
you don't even have to say wordsthat you're not comfortable saying.
And be afraid of, oh, I'mgoing to be teaching, students
incorrect pronunciation.
Because the audio is builtin, so like for example, if we
have up Spanish flash cards.
Based on say greetings, Allah,the students will then repeat
(10:44):
Allah, and it's all there.
They're gonna repeat whatthey're hearing all the time.
Okay.
So teachers don't haveto worry about that.
Even when we're doing anythingin class, you can put up in the
interactive board and students willjust repeat what they're hearing there.
Okay.
And then we have English asa support language there.
It's all done for you in the sense thatyou have that support, that it's ready
made resources, ready made lesson plans,and we'll go through everything about
(11:07):
this is what you're going to learn.
Here's the vocabularyyou're going to learn.
Here are some support extensionexercises for you to do.
And in terms of that, we're working thenagain, with mixed ability differentiation.
That all ties back into the curriculum.
Okay.
The, I'm sure you probably sawwhen you saw the platform, it's
it works very well for everybody.
So students in the class whohave any additional needs,
(11:29):
we have it's very visual.
We have additional support therewith a need, a hint section where
students who can, they just can listenorally to the English translation
and in the target language.
We have extra features there,like a little snail that
will slow the audio down.
This will also help teachers.
Yeah.
Okay.
One thing I should say is that in termsof so a language that's there to not only
(11:51):
support the students, but there, it'sthere to support non-specialist teachers.
May Youth University are runningtheir first elective upskilling course
for primary students at the moment,and they're actually using language.
Okay.
To upskill for this elective courseto upskill the students language,
not, is not only a tool that can beused here for, delivering interactive
(12:12):
and fun engaging lessons to studentsfrom non-specialist teachers.
It can be used as a tool toupskill our teachers as well.
Okay.
Would it be fair to say for someone likeme if I, my, my principal buys language
nut for the school and I haven't done any.
Real CPD on languages that Ican almost learn the language.
(12:33):
As the children are learning the languageor at least be one step ahead like you're
leaving certain maths teacher as theclassic example, they're always just one
page ahead of the students kind of thing.
, absolutely.
This is going to be an investmentnot only for the school in terms of
allowing the students to progressin their language learning journey.
It's gonna be an.
Yeah.
You like, if a school, for example,decides we're gonna sign up to
(12:55):
language, not, and a lot of schoolsare in Ireland are doing that now.
We have hundreds of schools all overEngland and Scotland are using language.
Not for this reason because ofthe element of the non-specialist
teachers there to support them, but.
If schools in Ireland sign up tolanguage, not it's, you're already,
you're set up with resources readyto go to deliver authentic and
(13:16):
engaging lessons to your students.
But teachers can then usethis as their upskilling tool.
You can do it together,you can do it self-paced.
Very good.
I wonder and this is just a curiosityreally more than anything else.
There, there might besome people who might say.
We're expected to be fluent inIrish even if we don't speak it.
(13:37):
And are we going to be good enoughto teach, let's say another language
if we don't know the language andwe're learning as we go along.
What would you say to people who mightsay, look this is, this is something that.
They should, that thatthey're worried about.
Because I suppose at the base ofall Irish primary school teachers,
or at least most of us, are able tospeak Irish to reasonably high level.
(14:00):
And therefore you can tailor thelessons a little better and be a bit
more flexible when you don't speak thelanguage that you're trying to teach.
What they, there may be a concernthere of, I'm just gonna have to follow
along here, almost language by numbers.
In, in a way.
I, is that what would yousay to people like that?
I would say to them, I said I reallyappreciate it because, you are being
(14:23):
thrown in the deep end a little bit.
Okay.
So I.
I understand how difficult it is.
There are a huge amount of teachers outthere who do actually have a primary
degree in a modern foreign language.
You'll be surprised.
Okay.
Yeah.
But again, there are those who don't.
I would say, even going back to thisidea of the primary language curriculum,
as teachers yourselves, think backto this and draw on the experiences
(14:45):
from the languages that you know.
Most of us have done a modernforeign language for leaving cert.
Yeah.
And that is in the back of your head?
Okay.
That is there.
That's dormant.
So when you go in, so for example, it'sFrench, which most of us have probably
done until up until leaving cer.
When you go on and you look at languagenotes and you look at the start off,
the, basic greetings, flash cardsand sentence building exercises,
(15:07):
phonics to get, your ear goinghere, it will bring it back to you.
You will remember it.
Think of it that way, thatyou are actually ahead here.
You have done this until leaving start.
Yeah.
Most of the students in your classhaven't, but because the platform
is so strong at supporting thenon-specialist teachers through audio.
And that's all done foryou, that embedded audio.
(15:30):
You can be repeating that.
You can be listening to that yourself.
You're always gonna be one step ahead.
'cause you'll know what you're goingto be delivering in the class that day.
It is quite like, if I'm honest likeI the first one I went to was I to do
a French lesson and there's this gameon it called Where you pop bubbles.
Oh yeah.
And ISI can't remember exactly what it.
(15:52):
Over 20 years since I studied French.
But I've been to France a couple oftimes and I'm always, I'm often slightly
surprised by how much I remember.
But I also dismayed by how frustrating.
It's that I can't remember most ofthe stuff I learned, obviously, but
at the same time I got a hundredpercent in the first, lesson.
So it, I get that's me bragging nowhere, but then I moved on like to
Arabic, which I've never spoken before.
I can't read it becauseobviously it's and so on.
(16:15):
And I guess I found myself going.
I gave up a little bit, so I, I just,and also, look I wasn't invested in
learning Arabic really, to be honest.
So that's probably no, probably why.
This is probably why as well.
When we look at the Say Yes toLanguages program and we look at
what's happening in England andScotland, why is French why is it that
French and Spanish are being chosen?
Most likely because theseare, the languages have been.
(16:38):
Studied, most by primary schoolteachers and maybe in some cases German.
'cause we do have some schoolshere who have signed up to
language not to deliver German.
Yes.
'cause I have a teacher in theclass who may have done German
to leave and search and so on.
Yeah.
So maybe this is why, the primaryguided course in French and
Spanish is, it's an excellent tool.
Like I've used it myself, even as aspecialist teacher, you just go on and
(16:59):
it will tell you your learning outcomes.
This is what we're going learntoday, class, and then we move on.
What I should just to you as I.
Spoke there.
Previously just about students inyour class with additional needs.
That word pop game is a greatexample of how we can cater
to everybody in the classroom.
For example, you might not haveseen this when you're on that game.
The bubbles move quite fast.
(17:20):
Yes.
Just for anybody listening, youhave to basically click the bubble,
which matches the translationof the words you're being asked.
And the bubbles move very fast.
So there's a little snail iconif you click on the snail.
Once the bubbles slow down.
Yeah, if you click the snailtwice, they stop completely.
And we purposely have a whitebackground with black writing.
(17:40):
So that means that any studentswith a learning difference like
dyslexia, they can work veryeasily with this, or a dyspraxia
or just any other additional needs.
And then we have the need a hintsection, which students can go up.
And they can look at, and teachers whenthey're learning as well, can do this too.
And they can listen to Bonjour, andthen it'll say, hello, good morning.
And, you can do things hourly.
(18:01):
Yes.
Because there is a big focus in primaryschool even when we're looking at EAL
maybe just doing things hourly, listening.
Yes, absolutely.
I, and actually I tried one of theactivities where you had to speak
the thing and, 'cause I wanted totest whether it would understand
my dreadful French accents when Iwas, one, one of the quizzes where
you have to speak and whether itwould understand what I was saying.
(18:22):
And it worked like quite well.
Like I tried to trick it a couple oftimes and I succeeded a couple of times.
But if I went at, for example, ifI was supposed to say, and I said.
Hell app, they, they, itwouldn't understand it.
But if I went one week, maybeit did, so it, yeah, but at the
same time it was good enough.
It was actually surprisingly good, for,so you know, for what you're supposed
(18:43):
to be doing, I think as well, becauseI've used language, not myself in the
primary school classroom, I do think andI've been in the primary school, this
classroom, there's great enthusiasm.
Among primary school students when they'vecarried out the a s to languages when
they're doing it, and they're very excitedabout being able to have a conversation.
(19:04):
Students will, go out after a fewlessons having these words, because
when you look at what's on the platformit's encouraging, oral communication.
Yes.
In the language from the get go.
Again, it all ties back into that ideaof the primary language curriculum.
It's encouraging communicationat those very early stages.
Yes.
And there is even a part on theprimary guided course where it'll
(19:26):
just say conversation in classand you can just click on it'll.
And you just click on those things.
If you're doing it in French, studentswill repeat them and then you say, okay
guys, let's go around the classroom.
Let's practice thistogether with a group work.
And you'll be, it's amazing that bythe end of the first lesson, students
are able to say their name, sayhello, and maybe ask somebody else
(19:48):
their name and they practice it.
Yes.
It's great to see.
Okay.
So I wanna delve a littlemore into language.
Not really.
And I think we've got a goodoverview so far of what it is.
I, in a way, what it does and we'vetalked about the teachers like how
a teacher might use it, and even alittle bit on how students use it.
So I'm gonna give you abit of a scenario, okay?
(20:10):
I'm basically it's simple enough.
I'm I'm a teacher.
I have been given language up bymy principal to, and I've been told
we're, you're doing Italian and Ihave a word of Italian 'cause this
is what our school are gonna do.
We go on a school trip in sixthclass Didly, or whatever it is.
And it'd be great if we have a few, a bitof Italian going or whatever it might be.
(20:31):
How do I suppose what I'm interestedin is what's the teacher's experience
of language note, and then maybe whatwill the students' experience be?
And I know at times there'll be alesson, but there'll also be times
where there might be times forpractice, let's say, for the students.
So how does maybe give I suppose ashort overview of that, if that's okay.
(20:51):
I would start off as the teacher.
First of all, it depends.
You can use language notes ina variety of different ways.
It's so versatile.
You can use it front of classon your interactive board.
If you're a school who hasaccess to devices, you can set
your students up on devices.
Each student will get their ownunique username and password.
And, then you just addyour classes on here.
(21:12):
So you basically, you could have languagein front of class, you could have students
on devices working independently aswell, and differentiated activities.
Depending on, they're working on, butlet's just go with the more simple idea
here of, we're front of class, we bringup class one greetings in Italian.
Okay, so what you'll do is you'llbring up those vocabulary flashcards.
What you can do is you can, you cantake off the English translation, you
(21:35):
can take off the written Italian, andyou can just do it hourly if you like.
But it's nice for the studentsto, to see the words as well.
You can press play and, but will happenis the students will be brought through
kind of general vocabulary for greetings.
Let's say, hello, goodmorning, good evening.
And they would play on the board andstudents would repeat after each of those.
(21:56):
Okay.
You can do that a few times.
Then you can take off theEnglish translation and
you can test the knowledge.
That way you just keep pressing the audioand it will come up to the students.
Then you would move on to thepractice exercises, again,
covering four components, reading,writing, listening, and speaking.
Then you can decide whichgame you're going to go into.
So you can go through thedifferent games on the board.
(22:17):
There's your matching gamesmultiple choice games, like
just to match up everything.
It's all auto graded as well.
So if students are doingthis on their own devices.
They're going to get instant feedbackabout what they're getting Correct.
What they're getting incorrect.
Okay.
And everything that the students do onthe platform, by the way, they get points.
Okay.
So it's a great motivator for them.
You can set homework onthe platform as well.
(22:37):
Again, it can be differentiated ifyou want, and then they can go home
and they can work on their individualdevices to complete the homework.
So that's how it wouldlook like in the class.
For the teacher, you would havethis already planned, but you can
add assignments onto the platform.
You can build up a library of assignmentsto assign out to your students, but
if you're gonna use it front to class,you can just decide, you actually go in
(22:57):
and look at a lesson plan, for example.
Yes.
Okay, you can just gointo vocabulary, Italians.
Very first one, greetings or basics,and you click on the lesson plan and
it will show you everything there.
You could follow that stepby step yourself, okay?
Okay.
Okay.
Even with no Italian, butyou have a lesson plan.
You're going in armed withthis knowledge and you flash
(23:24):
French.
And I would say Ola.
And I'd be doing itwith the class as well.
Yes.
There's also little songs and storiesas well on the platform there that
you can play great for the students.
When I've done the Say a program, I'vealways really started a class and ended
a class with a song, always the same one.
Every time.
Okay.
'cause then by the end of the coursethey can sing along, they know it
(23:46):
and they have some words, yeah.
Fantastic.
They some words.
Yeah.
And it's reinforcing the wordsthat they've already used.
Exactly.
So that's, it's gonna support youin that way because you're going in
armed with ready-made resources anda lesson plan and the support of
the platform and the built in audio.
You don't really have to do anythingbut click on the students to repeat.
(24:07):
Very good.
And then you can walk around the classroomand, practice a conversation and so on.
You can get the students up tothe board if you touch Screenboard
and practice the exercises.
So you'd have matching games.
Like I might say, Bonjour,and you have to say, click.
Hello, goodbye.
Good afternoon.
Good morning.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
Everything is also, is always going tobe reinforced with the audio, everything.
(24:29):
Brilliant.
Because it's important, especiallyat that kind of third, fourth class,
we're gonna be focusing a lot onoral communication, speaking in this.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I have a couple morelittle questions for you.
I think maybe a fear of some teachers isthat they're, they don't know what level.
They're going to need tobring the children up to.
I think there might be a fear of, I knowmaybe unfounded, I suppose in, in, in
(24:52):
Irish you're almost, I don't think weexpect the children to be fluent in Irish
by the time they leave primary school.
But for whatever reason, there'sthis sort of expectation that
they'll need to at least beconversational in particular language.
How far will something likelanguage not bring a teacher?
And their class.
By the end, let's say of six class,what would you expect children to be
(25:13):
able to do with four years language?
If we, I dunno if you're familiar withthe CEF or, the common European framework
for reference of languages, that'smeasured with can-do statements and I
think this is actually something that.
Is really important maybe forprimary school teachers to look at.
Yes, because if you look atthose can do statements, that's
a really great measuring tool.
(25:34):
I can say my name, I cangive basic information about
myself, abeginner, a one.
So I would say, again,it depends on the group.
Students are gonna be very enthusiasticabout this 'cause they are with
the say the Languages program.
Sure.
I would say, it's a hard question to,to pull outta the air with levels,
that yourself as a teacher, but itcould be up to maybe level A too.
(25:55):
Because I do think, and again, we arewe haven't been given a huge amount of
information on this for the Department ofEducation, but third and fourth class is
going to be mainly general conversation,a focus on intercultural learning, which
I should say, if you follow the primaryguided course for any of the resources,
there is an element of interculturallearning with kind of topics.
(26:16):
About the country foreach section as well.
Yeah.
Okay.
And because that is importantas well to know and, students
will like to hear about the.
The language that spoken in thecountry that they're learning
about, little snippets about that.
But it's difficult to predict.
But third and fourth class,it's gonna be very basic.
Very basic, and if we're focusingon greetings, basic information,
(26:39):
colors, that kind of idea, youcan just keep reinforcing that.
And they will with the tool like languagebecause the, it's so strong with the
practice of reading, writing, listening,speaking and there's so much on it there.
I think that, after third andfourth class, there's no reason,
but there would be like, an A one.
Level.
Okay.
(26:59):
And for those of us who aren't EELteachers or haven't delved into language
learning, sorry, a one and a two I justto for listeners who don't know what
that means what kind of level is that?
A one is a complete beginner,but you can give information.
General information, basicinformation about yourself.
A two then is the level upfrom that building on it.
Okay.
So they're the beginner levels.
(27:20):
Okay.
Okay.
B one, B two.
B one is like low intermediate,B two and high intermediate.
Fantastic.
Yeah, that's that, that's great.
But again, it's hard toput, to measure progress.
It's very difficult to I to do, Iknow that, I remember even when I was
teaching English as a, an additionallanguage when back in the day that,
you were dividing the, the kidsinto different groups and, even at
that point, it was difficult whetherthey were, lower intermediate, yeah.
(27:42):
Hired and then, the different agegroup, it's a, you won't have that.
You won't have the.
The choice of who's going tobe in front of you either.
So there'll be all sorts of levels, alland, and all sorts of abilities and so on.
We're told when we look at the primarylanguage curriculum that, fourth and
fifth and sixth class, they will be movingon to maybe more grammatical structure.
Little bit more difficult.
Third, fourth class is verybasic oral communication.
(28:05):
Fifth and sixth will move on a little bit.
Very good.
Great And language note can bring themthat, bring them all the way to that
language note, can bring them thatlanguage note can bring them even further.
Okay.
Like it, it's all there, it'sall there for the taking, it
can bring them really quite far.
Yeah.
No, that's quite assurereassuring I think in a way.
And I know we're both shooting inthe dark a little bit 'cause we
(28:25):
haven't got the guidance yet fromthe Department of Education, but it.
It's I feel you're probably right thatit's going to be most likely to that
level rather than, I suppose maybe.
Again, I'm thinking back to all the, allthese Europeans that I meet who come to
Ireland with the like, phenomenal Englishand I and I'm just going, oh my gosh, I
wish I could, I wish my Irish is as goodas your English is, that kind of thing.
(28:45):
But I think, yeah, I think we'restepping stones maybe at this stage.
For.
I think you're probably right.
I suppose it leads me to mynext question and be which is
are you confident that this newcurriculum subject is going to work?
I.
I am very passionate about it.
Okay?
Simply because this is whatI've done for the last 20 years.
(29:06):
I've been so involved in Yeah.
Promoting languagelearning and everything.
And, I've been so involved in CSlanguage problem since it began.
I have two children myself.
And, we're constantly kind of build onlanguage skills there, but I, yeah I
am confident, but it has to be right.
Teachers have to be armedwith the right tools.
It's about tools, teachers,there are many teachers who are
(29:27):
not skills in another language.
So they have to be armedwith the right tools.
And th this is why.
And to be honest, this is why I came onboard with the language nurse, because
I could see what this was happening.
And I saw this platform, this tool that Ijust thought, oh my God, this is amazing.
We need to have this in Ireland.
Yeah.
They're using it all over Scotland andprimary schools and secondary schools.
(29:48):
I should add as well, if anysecondary school teachers out there.
Yeah.
But this has been used all overEngland and Scotland following the
same model that we're going to follow.
And the feedback is reallypositive, schools are using
this, we should be using it.
That's why I got involved and it's just.
And then I got to test it outmyself in the primary classroom.
And I could see how effective it was.
(30:10):
I could see the response ofthe students I can see as well.
I think that when we're using such aninteractive, visually visual tool that
when you're moving around the classroomencouraging students to speak, this isn't
just about, like just right all the time.
This is about listening,speaking, communicating.
(30:33):
Fantastic.
And I really have been so impressedwith the work I've already done
with schools all over Dublin.
Using language notes to bring studentsup to a nice little conversational level.
Be able to give basic information.
My name is my ages.
I live, talk with their family,no colors, numbers, all of these.
(30:57):
Yeah, for sure.
Okay.
My last question I always ask anyonewho comes on the show is the one
that everybody dreads, which is ifyou were the Ministry of Education.
So you have the reigns for a day,you can do whatever you want, it's
a dictatorship, and you can do onething to the, to, to primary schools.
So what is it that you would like to doif you were the Minister for Education?
(31:17):
And it doesn't have to do withlanguages, but it sure can be.
It
listening to this.
But if I were the Minister for Education,I would ensure that all primary schools in
Ireland were signed up to language notesto ensure basically that implementation
(31:41):
of MFL at primary level is a success.
Okay.
It has to be successful.
We've we've spent so much time now rollingthis out in sample modules, and the only
way for this to be a success and for
tool.
Success to me means that teachers aresupported with a teaching and learning
(32:02):
tool that enables them to deliverinteractive and engaging lessons
while students are also engaged andmotivating and enjoying the language
learning process and experience.
Okay.
Again, this can be usedfor teacher upskilling.
I should just point out as well that.
Language note can be availed off forfree by second year PME students.
(32:29):
Fantastic.
That is credible.
Great opportunity to get used tousing the net tech tool and maybe a
little bit of upskilling for yourself.
Brilliant.
Brilliant.
So this is sounding much more promisingto me than it was before I talked to you.
To be honest with you, I was startedmy interview with you full of dread
that I was gonna have to becomefluent in 20 different languages.
(32:49):
And maybe perhaps this conversation wouldends up starting in English and going
to French to German, then to Arabic,and then I'd be all, all over the place.
But
school teachers listeningto this conversation.
We'll feel the same.
Yeah.
That's the point.
There's something thereto help you, so use it.
Exactly.
(33:09):
Exactly.
So if people do want to find you and orask you any questions or connect with
you any way and maybe find out a littlebit more mi more about Language Note,
what's the best way they can get in touch?
Get in touch at roche@languagenut.com.
I'd be really happy to,have a chat with you.
The best thing to do is actuallyto come onto a personalized demo.
Where I can show you around theplatform, answer any questions you
(33:30):
have, and then I'd give you a twoweek free trial to try this out with
your students or have little play.
Fantastic.
And I, I just wanna say thankyou so much for coming out.
It's really interesting particularly,because it is something that a lot
of teachers are talking about at themoment and I think, you've given me
a lot of reassurance and I'm sureyou'll have done the same for any of
the teachers listening in for this.
(33:50):
Thanks so much roi.
Thanks for having me, Simon.
Really enjoyed it.
Thanks.
So there you have a veryinteresting conversation.
I hope you'll agree there.
Between myself and Rosin, I mustadmit, I went into this conversation
feeling rather cynical about thenew curriculum subject that's going
to be the modern foreign languages.
And I've come out of it a littlebit more confident than I was and.
(34:14):
Since recording this with Rosin, I'vebeen very lucky to have visited another
country on an Erasmus Plus trip where Iwent to Denmark to find out what they do.
And one of the things I wasinterested in was how they work
with modern foreign languages.
And it's interesting that English, Isuppose, is a foreign language in Denmark.
(34:36):
But it's taught from the very start.
And I think that's very similar to mostEuropean countries where they have their
own language and English, and they speakEnglish quite fluently, but they also
teach either French or German from aroundfifth class, fourth or fifth class.
I, I couldn't figure out what, what itwas, but around fourth or fifth class,
(34:57):
which was, was quite interesting.
But the level that's expected of themis very similar to what Rosin was
kind of, and going on about there.
And when I thought about it, I had thisreally interesting conversation with the
principal of the school and he was tellingme that some children come into primary
school in Denmark, not speaking Danish.
They actually speakEnglish at home with their.
(35:19):
Parents and their parents are actuallyDanish that English is starting to
take over from the Danish language.
So they actually have to reteach Danishand they're in a kind of this interesting
sort of position that Ireland kind ofhas long gone past where most people
in Ireland speak English at home andthen they're taught Irish when they
come to school and to, you know,to various degrees of fluency and.
(35:44):
I kind of feel like maybe in 10, 15years, so maybe a generation's time in
Denmark, you're gonna have a very similarsituation to where Ireland is right
now, which is everyone speaking English.
But learning Irish in schooland being somewhat decent at it
by the end of primary school, Ithink you're gonna have something.
Well, I dunno if you'll have somethingsimilar in Denmark, because everything
(36:05):
was taught through Danish and insome ways what they have in Denmark.
Is they've got the equivalent ofthe grail skull as the default.
Whereas in Ireland, we've goneso far down the line away from
the Irish language that the grailskull is actually not the default.
And maybe that's where we needto be striving for if we're going
to I I suppose just to give acomparison, and the other thing it
taught me really in a way is we do.
(36:27):
Have a foreign language thatwe already teach in Ireland and
that we already use in Ireland.
And yes, it's the English language.
In some ways it's not very, I'm nottrying to sound patriotic here, but
it was when I thought about the wayyoung Danish children are speaking
English as their first language andDanish as their second language, I
kind of thought, gosh, in a way that'skind of where we should be at, and.
(36:53):
I suppose by the end of primaryschool we, we do have two languages,
Irish and English, or we should havetwo languages, Irish and English.
Very much like most othercountries in Europe who have
their own language and English.
And they might have a third language.
And I think that's where we're going to.
And the third language, I thinkis taught to a much lower level,
so that level A two or B one levelthat Rosin was going on about.
(37:15):
So look.
I mean, I just thought that was aninteresting aside from my travels
when I was, when I was there.
And I dunno what you think yourself itmight be, might be worth considering,
but I certainly, Roe's conversationwith me certainly has gave me
a lot of, a lot to think about.
I'm certainly less nervousabout the subject coming
into the curriculum because.
In some ways I probably have enoughFrench, despite having not spoken
(37:39):
French for nearly over 20 yearsto be able to teach the basics.
You know, I understand 'em and I learncan learn along with the children.
And I think, you know, while it's notideal, I mean ideally it would be lovely
for to have native French speakers,native German speakers, native Spanish
speakers, native, any speakers comingin and teaching the language well.
And do doing well and making childrenmuch more fluent in more languages.
(38:03):
But I don't know if that's going to bethe intention of this new curriculum.
I'm not sure if that's a pityor if that's just the way it is.
And I suppose I'll leave thatquestion hanging because I.
You know, I might havemy own opinions on that.
I'm not sure what yours are.
So that's it for me for this week.
I hope you enjoyed the interview.
I certainly did.
As I said, it really gave me a lotof food for thought, as they say.
(38:27):
And I hope my little anecdote atthe end may have given you a little
bit extra to think about as well.
Listen, thanks so much for listening.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleaseconsider subscribing to it.
And I will see you very soon.
Well, before I go I'm thinking of settingup a second podcast of a series of very
short podcast, which will be AI generated.
But I'm hoping you won't knowtheir AI generation really.
(38:51):
I found this really good tool and lookingto play along with it and seeing if I
can do some interesting things with it.
So keep an eye out forthat on the on shot.net
podcast series, but from this one,if I were the Minister for Education.
Thanks for listening.
All the very best.
Bye-bye.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
(39:11):
Yeah.
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