December 9, 2024 • 43 mins
In this episode, I count down who I believe are the top ten front-runners to being the next Minister for Education. What position with Norma Foley come? Who do I tip to be the next Donagh O'Malley? Find out in an episode that's like to age very badly!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello?
(00:00):
Hello.
You're very welcome to if Iwere the minister for education
from unsharp dot Nash.
A regular podcast where I delveinto the world of primary education
and let you know what I would do.
If I were the minister foreducation, this is Simon Lewis.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleasefeel free to subscribe on your
(00:20):
favorite podcasting platform.
And please leave a review as itwill help reach more teachers.
In this episode, I will bepondering after a general election.
Which I suppose did not yieldmuch change who is going to be
the next minister for education.
As I am basically looking at thelandscape at the moment as it stands
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and recording this, it does looklike the government will be made up
of Faena Gale and some independence.
So I'm going to be looking at thepotential Finn fall or Faena Gale
ministers or potential ministersfor education will Norma Foti.
B.
Remain in her position on survive orshuffle or will Faena foil give Phoenix,
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Gale the poison chalice of the ministryfor education and who will it be?
I'm going to go through my top 10 or12 possibilities of who I think might
be the minister for education andwhy I think there'll be that I'd be
very interested in your own comments.
So please reply at to the podcast.
(01:35):
On the various social media that I'm onthese days, I'm still on acts just about
but also on the various other platforms,Instagram threads and blue sky, of
course, where most people have escaped to.
You can always contact me as well onmy email, Simon at onshore dot Nash.
And I'd be delighted to hear fromyou, especially if you have any
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ideas for a future episode, or ifyou'd like me to cover any aspect
of the primary education system.
So let's get into it straight away.
And I guess we thought wewere going to have a bit of an
anticlimax before the election.
And I suppose with the timing ofit being announced and the short
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amount of time between it beingannounced and actually happening.
I guess we expected ananticlimax of having a Faena
file and Faena Gale coalition.
But I guess the question wasgoing to be who were they
going to be in coalition with?
I don't think, I suppose with oneTD left, I don't think the greens
are going to be in coalition.
And the big question mark waswhether the social Democrats or
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labor would jump in at the moment.
That isn't looking likelythough, that could change.
Today or tomorrow or the nextday, the way these things go, the
temptation to go into government.
I imagine is very tempting because ifyou have key issues that you want to put
through, And there's a, the only way ofdoing that, according, I suppose to the
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world of politics is to be in government.
As I said, I'm an armchair.
Fan of politics.
And I don't know.
I don't know anything really do.
Bush ad.
That's just my own beliefs.
I know what I am a little bit of,I wouldn't say an expert in, but it
certainly, I have a bigger interest in iseducation, specifically primary education.
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And what I am interestedin is who is going.
To be the next minister for education.
And what I'm going to do is Iain't going to give you my top 10.
Of possible.
Minister version is some sortof countdown show style thing.
I will say before I do as a few outsidersthat I thought might adapt, that I
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have written about in my medium blog.
So let's get on to the top 10.
In 10th place.
It's Nile Collins from Faena foil.
So the reason I put NA.
And he's in the running and the top 10,but quite far down is because he's been
in the role of minister for furthereducation for the last few years.
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And this might be seen as a promotion.
So he's got nothing to do withprimary education and I'm not sure
what the focus of the new governmentwill be in terms of education.
It seems.
Primary education is has really beenneglected to me anyway, has been
neglected terribly for quite some time.
Especially in special education,especially in patronage,
especially in funding.
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And so there's areas that needto be absolutely looked at there.
And secondary school educationis in terrible bother.
From what I can see with leavingcert reform, there's a huge amount of
animosity, AI, all that is coming into it.
And then I don't know aboutfurther education and what
kind of situation it's in.
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But either way being promoted tothe full minister of education.
It would be a promotion for Neil Collins.
He seems to be an experiencedpolitician with ma has had major
roles in previous government.
So he has experience.
So he might be someone whomight steady the education ship.
Now I've never heard anything reallyfrom him about primary education.
And I can't think why he would be chosenover people above in the list for the
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role, but he's an outsider , I don'tknow what batting rates are, but he's in
10th place in my view for the ministry.
Let's move on to numbernine, Hildegard Nocton.
I'm very much an outside that in thesimilar vein to Nial Collins has a junior.
I don't know if it's a junior or senioror is it a super junior ministry?
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But it's she is a ministerfor special education.
And maybe this is seen as a steppingstone for the main minister for
education job, especially if the focusis tackling special education, which
seems to be the only show in town.
If you look at the newspapers, whenit comes to talking about education,
Our primary level, at least.
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I don't know.
If Hildegard, Nocton got to grips withthe portfolio of special education
after Josefa Madigan finished up.
I don't think she had a lot of time.
I think she had to spend a lot ofher time going around to schools and
learning about the portfolio, learningabout things to say and what not to say.
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She read from the scripts most of thetime, which I don't blame her again.
It's not a position.
It's a complex positionand special education.
I've argued has been neglected severely.
Over the last 10 years, at least.
And there's a lot of fixing to do.
And a lot of collaboration that's neededwith health as well as education, as
well as the department of children.
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So it's not a singleportfolio, special education.
Isn't just an educational position.
There's a lot of other complex issues.
Around therapies around ourphysical supports around care
supports and things like dash.
Whoever it's going to be is going to needto do a lot of work in special education.
That's why I put here, the guardknocked an in as the main person
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out her experience in other fields.
Which are also necessaryand possibly as important.
I haven't heard her speaking on,so that's why I have her maybe
further outside in that position.
Let's go to number eight.
So number eight is John Connolly.
From Faena foil.
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And you might go, who.
Which is what I did because I haven'theard of them despite the fact
that he and I share the same job.
He is a primary schoolprincipal who is now a TD.
And being elevated to being the ministerof education straight away, just because
he was a primary school principalmight be as surprising given that first
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time TD and Norma Foley got the nod.
The last time she was elevated straightinto the minister for education, which
is held onto for quite some time.
However, I feel this time.
There's probably a few people.
Ahead of them in the queue for the job.
Eh, he isn't somebody who's ever come onmy radar in the primary education world.
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The prime education system is quitea small . And you would hear of
famous primary school principalsfor want of a better word.
And I've never heard thename, John Connolly in that.
As sort of sentences.
And you know, when people are speakingabout influential people in primary
education, I haven't heard JohnKennedy's name mentioned at all.
Maybe he's popular in his nativecounty and is well known there.
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And clearly he's well respected becausehe wouldn't have gotten elected otherwise.
But it's difficult to know actually wherehe would stand on issues and education.
And would he simply do what norm ofFoley did, which was essentially read
from the script from their advisors orwould he having been a primary school
principal and knowing the strugglesof being a primary school principal
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say I'm going to fix those things.
That's why John Connollyis my number eight.
Number seven.
Katherine Callahan from Faena Gale.
Now.
This is possibly my local biasshowing in a way being from
Carlo as Catherine Callahan is.
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But it isn't for that reason, I puther up in lofty position, number seven.
And maybe I'm being a bit generous,but I think should make for a very
interesting minister for education becauseshe's involved in the education system.
But she isn't a teacher.
What would my culinary think of this?
Because she's actually a specialneeds assistance and being a
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special needs assistant would bringa very interesting perspective.
To the education system, becauseit's, while you're in the education
system, you're a, I wouldn't,it's a, it's not generous.
To call you a kind of anoutsider on the inside.
But when people talk abouteducation in Ireland, Sometimes
special needs assistance.
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Aren't as appreciated as they should be.
For their knowledge of the system.
And because they experience thesystem from a really interesting
perspective from the needs of what aresometimes called the most vulnerable.
And I don't like the term the mostvulnerable because they're only
vulnerable because they're notgetting what they should be getting.
But anyway, that's a bit ofa rant in the middle of this.
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I think she'd be an interestingminister for education.
It's her first time being elected.
So it will be a massive jumpmuch like people before her.
And I'm not quite sure.
What she actually stands forin terms of education, because
I've never heard of her.
Despite being a local person.
So her high rank here might bebecause she is likely the most
qualified to tackle special education.
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Which might own, which may beFaena, Gale's only interest in
the primary education manifesto.
Why wouldn't you put aspecial needs assistant in the
portfolio of special education?
I suppose if that comes up, but maybeif that's your main jump, it might
be the full minister for education.
That's got into the next on number six.
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Carl Crow.
From Faena foil.
Remember him, anyone remember him thinkcast your mind back to COVID 19 days.
And there was a man called Carl Crowwho decided to pull up the sleeves
and do a day of subbing in his.
In his local primaryskill and kind of declare.
Infamous an infamous situationbecause it completely backfired when
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it came across as being criticalof his colleague, Norma Foley.
Who was under pressure at thetime with the teacher shortage.
And she was denying as always thatthere was a teacher shortage and by
Carla Crowe going into a day sobbing.
At didn't really ruin withNorma Foley's narrative that
there wasn't a teacher shortage.
It was slightly, I think whatCarla Crowe is trying possibly to
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do was what Leon Gradcracker did.
Remember Leo Varadkar and decidedhe'd add, pull up his sleeves
and be a doctor for a couple ofdays and go into the hospitals.
And I dunno, as he had given COVIDinjections at the time I got to, nobody
was doing to be honest, but anyway,people thought, oh, that was good, man.
Other people.
And so on.
Coho didn't come out of it as well.
But like I get what he was trying to do.
He has a primary school teacher after all.
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But he's really never raised his head.
Above the power pose in termsof leadership and education.
I've never really heard himtalk about education short.
Of Geno.
The usual stuff Defina fall go on about.
And you know, it felt, I feel ifyou're a primary school teacher in
the doll, You should be saying more.
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Than your average TD, when it comes toeducation, you shouldn't just be, you
know, towing the party line and talkingabout school lunches and free school
books, you should be talking aboutpedagogy should be talking about it.
What are the things that actual primaryschool teachers are talking about?
And he never did dash.
So I can't really see himadvocating for any changes.
To anything that Most peoplereally care about an education.
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And I feel, he seems to be a nice man.
He seems to be a Joe McCue typeminister, like a friendly face,
but I don't see any massive pushfrom him to challenge the system.
Now it could be wrong.
My.
I have no dealings with them.
I only know him from thatinfamous day of sobbing Bush.
I never heard him really saying anythinginteresting about the education system.
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So that's why I haven't furtherdown the list and some might think.
Number five, we're getting serious.
Now these are the potential possibilities.
And this is my, let's sayleft of field kind of concept.
I have, I had her higher actually,when I was drafting this list.
And just..
She fell down into number five possible.
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Number five.
And that's Jennifer CarolMcNeill from Phoenix Gale.
And you might wonder why someonewho isn't a teacher or involved
in education would be so high upthe list in terms of a portfolio.
Because I think I see Jennifer Carl McNeiland I have no dealings with her either.
And as a TD that's in the ascendancyand for me, Carol McNeil would be
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this kind of interesting left tofield possibility for the portfolio.
What I know nothing reallyabout your credentials.
She is one of the morewell-known ministers.
If you were to ask the averageJoe, on the street to name me
ministers in the government.
I think so.
I think Jennifer Carol McNeilwould be named by many people
as someone that people know.
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It, despite I don't thinkshe has a major portfolio.
Again, I maybe I'm wrong in that, butshe's not in the big ones, you know?
And I think she's inthe ascendancy for that.
And if I think back to the previousfour ministers for education.
It's been either a complete unknownwho gets the position like Joe
McCue or Norma Foti, who nobody hadheard of before they got the jobs.
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I remember when both of them are nice.
The first thing people did wasgo to Google rather than go.
Nah, yeah, I've heard of her.
Or it was a very senior politicianlike Richard Bruton or Rory Quinn
who were on their last portfolio.
That's a, who are going to go offinto the sunset and they may have
had something to prove or some sortof fleeting interest in education.
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And we know what Rory Quinn's,our interests are on bridge.
Britain's ones where both really triedtheir best to push those through.
Education in a kind ofvery neglected spaces.
I've called it.
It might be a good opportunity for anup and coming politician to make their
marks such as Jennifer Carol McNeil.
I see her as this assomeone who's up and coming.
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And I think.
It would be.
A calculated kind of risk.
To put her there.
In a way that.
You could, she could be used by the party.
To do something big.
Because if it worked.
It would keep the ascendancy going.
And if it didn't work.
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I don't know if the fallout will be done.
But because again, it's, I'm sayingit's only education in inverted commas.
She's not going to crush the economyby, taking a risk in education.
And as I said, it's in such a tiredspace, such anything we'll probably work.
And.
I feel , over 50 yearson since do-now Marley.
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Ma made an unpopular and riskand a revolutionary thing
for second level education.
There were possibly do.
Done O'Malley moment in specialeducation, or even in patronage.
Because I think we needa minister for education.
Let's take special education andthen separately from patronage.
We're definitely do arevolution in special education.
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Like something, I don't know whatthe something is, but it, I think.
, there's something big needs tohappen in special education.
And I feel you need a very strongminister who will basically say
what we're going to do is we aregoing to sort as special education.
We are going to put a teaching assistantin every single classroom in Ireland.
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That would be.
A big thing to do, which would helpspecial education out in a big way.
And if she did that will be amassive step for special education.
In patronage, it would be, she could,and again, this is something I'm
not naive enough to think she wouldcome in and say, I will separate
church and state, even if she mightbelieve that will be the right answer.
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But the next step for patronage.
Is.
Diocese.
Any diocese basically saying we aregoing to divest all of our schools to.
Different patrons, I thinkthat's most likely to happen.
And that would maybe.
Make a fall through orshe might be braver again.
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I'm not saying this iswhat she's going to do.
I note, I don't know her from Adam.
I just see her as someone who isthe most likely to do something
revolutionary take a risk.
She might actually say to the churchesas part of the abuse at scandals and
repayments that we're going to putin a plan in place over the next 20
to 30 years, where the department ofeducation is going to buy back all of
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the schools in the country and run them.
And finally we can get a staterun system, which will respect all
people's rights and stop schools frombeing Running around religious lines.
I just feel she of all the 10 that wehave here, she's the most likely to do
something risky and possibly unpopular.
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I think Rory Quinn and RichardBruton, both similarly tried to
do some very Quinn started off bysaying, I'm going to make sure that
we reduce religious girls by 50%.
It never happens.
Richard Bruton was really goingfor gung ho about Ireland being
the best education system in theworld at, by 2026, with the kind of
these key kind of w like you've ran.
I suppose the department educationlike a business, it was interesting
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how he was doing it, but you coulddefinitely notice what they were doing.
Whereas Joe McCue and Norma Foleyreally just read from the script.
And didn't do anything and kept the ship.
On the road withoutactually doing anything.
So look, I am going on most about JenniferCarol McNeil, because maybe there's a
hope in me that she will, she does havedash She's most likely, I think because
she's on the ascendancy to do somethingbig and that might be potentially.
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A stepping stone forbigger and better things.
And so that's why Ihave her in number five.
Let's move on.
Number four.
Porrick oh, Sullivan.
Now Portico is an, is a teacher.
Michael O'Leary would probably beappalled at me putting him this
high, but as an interest, do youseem to be in special education?
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And that those two things combined.
Might put them higher up inthe list than others who I've.
Who've had ministriesfor special education.
Because he is a teacher,he has been Inish.
He gets it potentially.
And it might, it may, because again,it may possum prime seat for the
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junior ministry and special education.
But it may, if.
If it goes on, he might get theforeign minister for education.
Again, his specialeducation is the big thing.
When we're talking aboutthe minister for education.
If we continue to have a Faena foilMendez for education could be him.
It's a Phoenix Gail minister education.
I would see him as the most likely,possibly one of the most likely
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to get the special education post.
So an interesting character, Idon't know very much about him
and funnily enough, I'm not goingon as much about him as I did.
As our previous person, because Isuppose he isn't that well known, but
an interesting character that might getat some ministry in the education field.
Let's move to the big three here.
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The most likely top three for theminister for education, I'm going to
start off with number three, whichis Thomas burned from Faena foiled.
Because the reason I haveThomas burn up there.
In a way is when finna fall did.
Get the minister for education.
Back in 2020, I think it was 2020.
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It was a kind of a surprise.
That Thomas burn.
Didn't get.
The ministry because he was Faena falls,education spokesperson in opposition.
And it was Norma Foley who got the postsinstead of first time TD and Thomas Byrne.
I think whatever it may berightly or wrongly have been
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sore about the fact that he had.
Lots of experience and education.
And probably should have got the position.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Again.
I'm not quite sure.
And from my point of view, Hisinvolvement in the end of the baptism
barrier was, it was interesting.
And in some ways, because he was actuallyslightly, and I'm surprised at myself
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saying this, he was slightly moreprogressive than Faena Gail and Wei who
were in power with the baptism barrier.
Now I will say they felt very shortof being close to what was needed.
At the same time, , you have togive some credit to a conservative
sort of TD , being more progressiveto another conservative TT in
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terms of the baptism barrier.
And I thought Thomas Burns performanceduring the baptism barrier, although not
revolutionary, at least he had an opinionand he didn't shy away from that opinion.
And it was slightly more progressivethan Phoenix gals for those of
you who don't know what he did.
Richard Bruton was very big intoprotecting minority faiths by ensuring
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they could be discriminatory onreligious lines, on access skill,
Thomas Byrne disagreed with that.
That's basically the only difference,which to be honest with you.
Anyway thomas burner has continued.
I feel to flourish aroundthe education sector.
Whenever there's a thinggoing on in education, you see
Thomas burn in the background.
I think he did something on some sortof PE initiative there recently enough.
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So it wouldn't be a surprise to me.
If Pinafore did have the minister for theministry for education, that he might get
the post finally in favor of Norma Foley,because I think Norma, Fody, I'm going.
Might have run her course at this stage.
And if it's a site step, I don'tthink it will be a surprise to
see Thomas burn in the post.
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The only thing potentially.
Maybe in his way is we, it willbe a male taking over from a
female and do we have enough?
Female.
At TDS in ministries for education,just in terms of gender balance.
And that's not to say that normalFody might not get a promotion.
In fact, it's quite possible.
She may get a promotion.
I, when I say promotion I'm sayingthat from the TDS point of view.
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I wish education was seen as a promotion.
It's still one of those positions thatsort of, you know, top not in your top
portfolios, although I feel it should be.
But you may find Norma fairlybe moved into justice or health.
And then Thomas Burns slipping in there.
Let's say he does.
What would we see?
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I don't know if we wouldsee anything revolutionary.
I don't think from my point ofview, patronage would get a look in.
I don't know if we, if any area really.
Wood.
You know, get a massive revolutionary.
I don't know if Thomas Byrne issomeone who's on the ascendancy.
He may very well be.
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He may think he is.
I don't hear him beingpictured or spoken about.
As someone who's risingin the Faena fall party.
And again, I could be wrong on that.
Maybe he's very highlyregarded and maybe he will be.
You know, A couple of years timeyou know, he'll be the T shock and.
I'll be like, oh, maybe I was wrong there.
But right now, from what I can see,I think is a steady pair of hands.
He might take over from normal,fairly, but I don't see too many
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changes in terms of patronage.
I'd say he'll do is do a Bish.
He'll keep the ship sailing in my view.
Number two, we're gettingup to the top two.
Who do you think it might be?
And number two.
It's a Phoenix soil.
TD.
This is who I think was most likelyto be the minister for education.
If it's a fan of foil politician.
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And.
It's.
Yeah, Norma Foti.
Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion.
That if there is no promotion in invertedcommas for Norma Fody, that she will
remain in education to continue her finework in neglecting our education system.
She is the thing about her.
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I think I have to live.
As teachers, we live in a littlebubble, we're we think we talked
to teachers, we, on most days ofthe week, we deal with teachers.
Most of the time.
I think she's.
Almost universally onpopular with teachers.
The thing is she's very popular.
With.
Outside of education.
In some ways I, I thinkthe media really like her.
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And I think when people talk abouther in the media, Most of the
time, it's in a positive sense.
She shows the teachers.
I remember during COVID she was hailedas standing up to those teachers and the
unions and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I think parents like her.
Because she's brought in, she feels she'sbrought in free school books, free school
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lunches stuff that's popular for parentsfree school buses and goodies, to I as
a yard stick to being a man educationminister, let's give parents free stuff.
And essentially, to me, I thinkshe's unpopular with teachers because
she's reduced primary educationto a really expensive childcare.
So free childcare service.
For parents rather than beingabout education, about pedagogy,
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about it being, this is the thing.
I think why teachers reallydon't like Norma Foley.
And why I think parentsin Maine do like her.
And then the way when people speak abouteducation, they now talk about free stuff.
Free school books, free school lunches.
And isn't that great.
And when I get asked to go on theradio, that's what people say to me.
Isn't a great that, when I'mcritical, isn't it great though.
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She brought in free stuff and I'm,it's really hard to say to people like.
But that's not.
Educational stuff.
That's stuff.
That's free stuff for parentsthat reduces people's bills.
It doesn't increase education.
We've spent the last 20 yearstrying to get rid of school box
in education where it's certainly.
Get rid of the reliance onschool books and now we're back.
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To like completely relying on schoolbooks because we have to provide them.
And then the school lunches, a lotof people, I think school lunches
are a positive thing, by the way.
But I, the way they were rolled out,I have lots of criticisms over that.
Bush in the main, they'rea good thing, but most.
Teachers I talked to about school lunches.
They just, all they do is focus onthe tons and tons of waste and how
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so many families did need schoollunches and are getting them.
I don't, I think sometimes, I disagreewith their points on that Bush.
It the waste is systematicit's because of the rollout.
I always argue everything hasbeen to do with patronage and I
to even include school lunchesand not the free school buses.
Again, I just, I'm critical of thatbecause we shouldn't be driving
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children, cross counties and crossstreets to go to different schools.
Like not to their local school.
People should all go to the Rokuand that comes down to patronage.
But given the system that we're in.
You know what I feel, normal photos don'tas she's being a minister for parents
rather than a minister for education.
And I think.
Is that was that a calculated.
The calculator kind of thing.
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It may very well have been.
And.
Would that be enough tokeep her in education?
The phone pouch.
Scandal of the budget.
May.
Have been.
Maybe problematic for her being carriedon as a minister for education, she kinda.
Dug her heels in and that rather thangoing quietly, dropping on she, you
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know, so that will work against her.
I feel.
The education debate thathappened with the Incs.
She really messed up on thatone re like really badly when
it came to the teacher crisis.
I know.
I've been talking on Ivy listening toNorma thoroughly about the teacher crisis.
For five years where she denies it anddenies and denies, and she continued that.
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In the in the education space.
A debate.
But no.
I only did she deny it?
She decided, I don't know howshe decided this was a good idea.
She decided to say that when people aresaying it's a crisis, She decided the
best comeback for that was I can somelanguages, ah, That the word crisis
and opportunity are the same word as ifthat was going to make people feel good.
(28:51):
So she may have really, I didn'tknow that there were two major goths
and they won't do her any favors.
If she wants the minister for education.
But I can't think of too many others.
And I've mentioned a good few of them.
That are in as strong a position.
For the minister for education.
Then Norma Fody I think Thomas Byrneand Portico a narcotic, they're
(29:14):
almost like a swap in swap out system.
I don't think they'drock any boats even cut.
What was the name?
Carla Crow as well.
They're just to a, it wouldbe more of a swap in swap out.
System John Conley, Nial Collins.
There are the other funerals.
None of them are like, I don't think.
Are going to make any changes.
So the way things are.
I, the only thing I could see is normalphoto getting , a different ministry.
(29:37):
And then one of those oddsstarting into the post.
As a kind of a step as a,I didn't have a stop gap.
Until, you got the reshuffle happento maybe Faena Gail got the ministry.
I don't know.
It's not a.
, there isn't a lot of people in Faena for.
Who are really making ways beingrevolutionaries for education.
(29:58):
And maybe there's someone there in thebackbenches or a first-time TD the mice.
Might be an interesting and might.
I just don't know of who mightcome in and revolutionize.
Education.
But if Norma Fody remained in theposition, I wouldn't really be surprised.
And.
I noticed I don't reallytalk about second level.
(30:19):
Hannah riffle is really annoyed.
Second level with There ather reforms and I don't.
And if they are going to pursuethat, continue to pursue that.
Normal Foley.
Who is, or was a secondaryschool teacher might be the right
person to keep pushing that.
If that's a vision.
I don't know.
I have her as a second.
Favorite.
And as I'm speaking.
I still think she's there's a high riskthat she'll remain in that position,
(30:43):
but there's also a high risk thatyou'll be moved to a different ministry.
I think she's done.
She's done well as a politician ratherthan the minister for education.
And may find yourself in a, inwhat's considered a higher position.
And I'm maybe one of the ladsthat if uniform keep the ministry.
One of the lad, Sarah just continuewhat she was already doing.
(31:04):
So in other words, I know the wordsof Norma Foti, doesn't get the post.
I see Norma Foley remaining in the post,just, it would be a different politician.
We're doing the same thing.
So we've gone through our top 10.
At number one, And maybe onsurprising to anyone who watched
the I N T O's education debate.
(31:24):
It's a Faena Gale minister, a.
Faena Gail politician.
And it is Patrick O.
Donovan who appeared on theeducation debate representing Faena
Gail, which is probably the mainreason I have him ad number one.
As the potential minister for educationand When I was writing my article,
I said that Donovan is my favoriteto take on this road, but that
(31:50):
shouldn't read as being my favoritein anything, but in the batting sense.
I would not like, and I wouldsay this very hand on heart.
I would not like Patrick O'Donovan tobe the next minister for education.
However, before I explain that, Iwill say why there may be positives to
(32:11):
him being the minister for education.
He is very likely to ensure slightimprovements to special education reforms.
Because I think he iscapable in that sense.
He knows.
The primary education system asa primary school teacher, I think
he's a primary school teacher.
With children.
In primary schools.
(32:33):
And it is possible.
Dash better funding will alsobe something he may fight for.
Given that he was a formerprimary school teacher.
However on the downside.
I was extremely frustrated by himwhen I watched the education debate.
With the IMCO.
(32:54):
I particularly his attitude tothe role of religion in schools.
This is my main, book bear, when it comesto primary education, this is my one.
When I talk about primary education,the main thing I look at is patronage.
That is number one concern I havewhen it comes to the education system.
And not just from the religious sense,although it stands from that, but also
(33:17):
the effect the patronage has on theeducation system and why we really need
to grasp it as a nettle and grasp itas something that we need to focus on.
Unfortunately.
He very much defended the statusquo saying he wants his children
to go to a Catholic school sothey can make their sacraments.
(33:41):
And it really frustrated me becausethat is the only reason he wants.
Or he said that he wants.
Catholic schools to remain becausehe himself wants to outsource his
supposedly Catholicism or is, I don'tknow what how religious he is, but I
S he strikes me as someone who fallsinto a cultural conflict because.
He sees the Catholic school as aplace to outsource the sacraments to.
(34:05):
And maybe he is super religious,but I don't think he is.
I'm pretty sure he isn't ad basedon what he was talking about.
But it just was so disappointing.
It was so disappointingto see a young man.
Who doesn't really representthe majority anymore.
Most parents.
And there are people betweenthe age of 31 and 36 these days.
(34:26):
Don't identify as as Catholic they'reonly 55 as a 50, 50, 50 5% of people.
Debra of that age bracket tickedCatholic in the last sentence.
And that doesn't mean thatthey're like religious Catholic.
Like I remember about 30% ofpeople who say they're Catholic.
Are traditionally Catholicnot culturally Catholic.
(34:49):
So you're looking at a very kind ofsmall percentage of people who cherish
Catholicism and it's it's because Idon't, maybe he is one of those people.
I don't really know.
And I'd love to have a chat to himabout it if whether or not she
becomes the minister of educationand really addressed that.
Oh no.
When he was asked about patronage,that it was all about him and
his needs and there was no.
(35:10):
There's just not a single kind of.
I don't know there wasn'ta single kind of thought.
For anyone that wasn't a culturalCatholic or even a strong Catholic about
wanting a Catholic school and no irony.
Around the fact that His own situationbeing more important than the
situation of anyone else around him.
(35:31):
And I was it always, it led meto a question about them and I'm
going to do an article on this.
About if Patrick O'Donovan happenednot to be parched, go Donovan.
And I happened to be Idon't know, let's say.
Someone who isn't Catholic.
A non-Catholic Patrick or Donovan, let'ssay someone church, a church of Ireland
(35:52):
at Patrick O'Donovan or a Muslim PachucoDonovan or an atheist Patrica Donovan.
Where he lives.
He lives in new castle,west in county, Limerick.
By the way, I'm not stalkingthat's public information.
And new castle west in county, Limerick.
I don't know very much about the area, butI, my, my sense and I've driven through
it is that there's a guayle school there.
I know there's Glasgowthere because I've visited.
(36:13):
And that's a Catholic girls school.
It's not a multi-denominationalbowel skull, I think.
I'll have to check that out,but I'm 99% sure of that.
And there's Catholicschools and I'm not sure.
I, there may be a church of Aaron's good.
I don't know, but I'm goingto, I'm going to find out this.
So with Patrika Donovan.
It was an atheist.
What school.
Where would you have to, he wouldhave to ensure for its children to be
(36:34):
insured, or if equal respect and skill.
He went to dry from Newcastlewest, into Limerick city every day.
And I can imagine that journey takesquite some time with traffic or
he may have to drive out to Ennis.
I think that might be on his way.
Another bit of a journey as well.
At to ensure his childrenwere treated with equality.
(36:54):
Similarly.
We would have now maybe I'm wrong.
There might be a an educationguide to scooter, a community
national school it'll coaster.
And this is why I have to do the article.
My sense is that there are the twomost There are the two schools.
That at least are going to behalf an hour of a drive every day.
To there and back in order tobe treated with equal spec.
Similarly, if he was a Muslim orJewish or some other faith that
(37:18):
isn't Catholic and I the challenge,I would have to Patrick, a donor and
I'm actually going to pick on them.
If he is the minister for education I, I.
About that sentence, that I'm Catholic.
And I want my children to go to aCatholic school so they can make
their sacraments quote unquote.
And I want to think, I wantyou to think about that.
If he wasn't Catholic and hownon-Catholic people in Newcastle
(37:39):
west feel about that opinion.
Now he would probably say that nevercomes to his door, but it's not
about the P I always say you haveto think, and I say this to my staff.
I say this to people around me.
About what you do when you'retaught, when you were thinking
about Religion and schools are, whenyou're thinking about talking about
religion or thinking about your own.
Th whatever your religion might be, youdon't just think about the people that
(38:01):
are in front of you, the people who are.
Who you're speaking to.
You always think about the peoplewho aren't in front of you.
They're as important.
And often they don't havethe confidence to speak up.
They're the people whoare in the background.
Because they are in thebackground, not because they
choose to be in the background.
There's the people who don't want toraise their head above the power pitch
(38:22):
because they're already vulnerable.
To the likes of I'm a Catholic.
I want my kids to go to a Catholicschool to make their sacraments.
Arguing against that.
As a minority faith.
Only gets you the sort of response thatI, January gastro disease is a Catholic
country and go away, get back to your owncountry and then all that sort of stuff.
(38:43):
It's not what most people want to hear.
Anyway.
Whatever tiny progress isbeing made in this area.
In terms of the Phoenix Delphina gal.
Government is just.
It's not good.
It's not happening.
And any progress that was being made wehad our first educate together school
divested from the Catholic church in 2023.
(39:04):
Or 2024, actually this year.
Warren educate go to school in 11 yearswas divested from the Catholic church.
That's the level of tiny progress.
I actually think even that tiny amountof progress is going to be curtailed
by that attitude of I'm a Catholic.
I want my child to go to a Catholicschool to make their sacraments,
that cultural Catholic sentence.
(39:25):
Of not thinking about anyoneoutside of your own house.
And.
I don't see any kind of mentionedprogress on patron is now in the finagle
manifesto, which means that it's gonethe 400 schools before 2030 has gone.
And with O'Donovan at the rains, Isee little hope of anything positive
for the thousands of families andteachers, because teachers who
(39:47):
are also affected, I don't thinkPatrick would don't even realize is
when he wants to send his conflict.
Census children's Catholic schoolsthat the teachers who are teaching this
Catholic stuff may not believe the stuffthat he wants them to do so effectively.
We've got non-believersteaching non-believers about.
To prepare them for thesacraments and it's just.
But the attitudes that, that is stillthere and I keep going on about.
(40:09):
There are teachers very mucheffected by this patronage model.
And I'm going to mentioneducation equality.
And I think I'm going to be mentioningeducation equality, the lobby group.
In almost every podcast Ido and patients, they are.
They are a super group who arecollecting story after story, horrific
stories of our teachers and parentsand children have to go through as
(40:29):
not being part of the status quo.
In fact, this week as I'mrecording one of the most.
Shocking stories of all.
And it's it's I suppose asthings go viral it's as viral
as these sort of things, gash.
Was the story of a teacherwho wrote to education.
Telling him telling them.
That she was in her costume and thepriest rocked in and took over the cost
(40:49):
and started asking the children to raiseher as a teacher and this kind of stuff.
That goes on and that'sjust one of many stories.
Where a teacher.
Who was working in a Catholicschool, whether they're Catholic
or not is being undermined by thestructures of the Catholic church in
is where you feel you are silenced.
You cannot talk.
About your about four.
Some stuff like, nevermind whether,you might not be Catholic or
(41:13):
practice, but even if you're doingthings that are slightly against the
Catholic church's teachings now aboutliving with your partner not being
married or whatever it might be.
There's still some teachers thatdon't talk about that just in case.
The there's a very overzealous prieston the board who might frown upon that.
Or maybe you might get a principal who'sfairly overzealous, or maybe you won't
(41:34):
have one now, but might have one in thefuture and you have to protect yourself.
All of that.
I am saying.
Is Patrico Donovan's source of whenhe made that sentence, that's the
sort of stuff I was thinking aboutit, but it still makes him the favors.
To be the next minister for education.
I do believe the next minutesof our education is likely
(41:54):
to be a fan of Gail minister.
He seems to be given.
He was the one that was putforward for the primary education
debate to be the born in.
I had to be the one in there.
He has experienced as a minister.
So there's dot going forum.
And I suppose he probably ison the ascendancy he's he was a
younger from what I was reading.
He was one of thoserising stars in the past.
(42:16):
He's now coming of ageand all the rest of us.
So look, I guess having said allof all that you know, I think
we might, that's why he's myfavorite to take on the position.
I'm not sure what you all think.
Maybe you think differently.
I'd be very interested in hearingabout who you think will be the
next minister for education.
I'm putting my I'm putting my betson Patrika Donovan to be named
(42:37):
the next minister for education.
Obviously, if the social Democratsor the labor party do go into
coalition, I will change thisbecause I would see the minister
of education going to one of those.
They have plans.
They have progressive plans that Idon't think Faena file and Finnegan.
God wants to touch.
But they would be wise enough to know thatthis is something that needs to happen.
(42:59):
And why not blame it on a labor ora social Democrat, whereas I was
woke parties as they might callthem for trying to push that in.
That's what requeentried to do back in 2011.
It didn't punish maybe 15 yearslater for nearly 15 years ago,
we were in a different bracket.
, look, I think I've spoken.
A lot here.
I don't know how many AkashI'm nearly an hour into this.
(43:21):
A fairly long, top 10.
I hope you've enjoyed my ponderings.
I should have one more episode beforethe end of 2024, where I look back on
the year, that was, I'd be interested tohear what your highlights or lowlights
were from the education in 2024.
I'm an interesting yearin education, maybe.
And until then I will chat to you then.
(43:43):
Thank you so much for listeningall the very best bye-bye.
Hello?
(00:00):
Hello.
You're very welcome to if Iwere the minister for education
from unsharp dot Nash.
A regular podcast where I delveinto the world of primary education
and let you know what I would do.
If I were the minister foreducation, this is Simon Lewis.
If you enjoy this podcast, pleasefeel free to subscribe on your
(00:20):
favorite podcasting platform.
And please leave a review as itwill help reach more teachers.
In this episode, I will bepondering after a general election.
Which I suppose did not yieldmuch change who is going to be
the next minister for education.
As I am basically looking at thelandscape at the moment as it stands
(00:46):
and recording this, it does looklike the government will be made up
of Faena Gale and some independence.
So I'm going to be looking at thepotential Finn fall or Faena Gale
ministers or potential ministersfor education will Norma Foti.
B.
Remain in her position on survive orshuffle or will Faena foil give Phoenix,
(01:12):
Gale the poison chalice of the ministryfor education and who will it be?
I'm going to go through my top 10 or12 possibilities of who I think might
be the minister for education andwhy I think there'll be that I'd be
very interested in your own comments.
So please reply at to the podcast.
(01:35):
On the various social media that I'm onthese days, I'm still on acts just about
but also on the various other platforms,Instagram threads and blue sky, of
course, where most people have escaped to.
You can always contact me as well onmy email, Simon at onshore dot Nash.
And I'd be delighted to hear fromyou, especially if you have any
(01:56):
ideas for a future episode, or ifyou'd like me to cover any aspect
of the primary education system.
So let's get into it straight away.
And I guess we thought wewere going to have a bit of an
anticlimax before the election.
And I suppose with the timing ofit being announced and the short
(02:17):
amount of time between it beingannounced and actually happening.
I guess we expected ananticlimax of having a Faena
file and Faena Gale coalition.
But I guess the question wasgoing to be who were they
going to be in coalition with?
I don't think, I suppose with oneTD left, I don't think the greens
are going to be in coalition.
And the big question mark waswhether the social Democrats or
(02:38):
labor would jump in at the moment.
That isn't looking likelythough, that could change.
Today or tomorrow or the nextday, the way these things go, the
temptation to go into government.
I imagine is very tempting because ifyou have key issues that you want to put
through, And there's a, the only way ofdoing that, according, I suppose to the
(03:00):
world of politics is to be in government.
As I said, I'm an armchair.
Fan of politics.
And I don't know.
I don't know anything really do.
Bush ad.
That's just my own beliefs.
I know what I am a little bit of,I wouldn't say an expert in, but it
certainly, I have a bigger interest in iseducation, specifically primary education.
(03:20):
And what I am interestedin is who is going.
To be the next minister for education.
And what I'm going to do is Iain't going to give you my top 10.
Of possible.
Minister version is some sortof countdown show style thing.
I will say before I do as a few outsidersthat I thought might adapt, that I
(03:42):
have written about in my medium blog.
So let's get on to the top 10.
In 10th place.
It's Nile Collins from Faena foil.
So the reason I put NA.
And he's in the running and the top 10,but quite far down is because he's been
in the role of minister for furthereducation for the last few years.
(04:04):
And this might be seen as a promotion.
So he's got nothing to do withprimary education and I'm not sure
what the focus of the new governmentwill be in terms of education.
It seems.
Primary education is has really beenneglected to me anyway, has been
neglected terribly for quite some time.
Especially in special education,especially in patronage,
especially in funding.
(04:24):
And so there's areas that needto be absolutely looked at there.
And secondary school educationis in terrible bother.
From what I can see with leavingcert reform, there's a huge amount of
animosity, AI, all that is coming into it.
And then I don't know aboutfurther education and what
kind of situation it's in.
(04:45):
But either way being promoted tothe full minister of education.
It would be a promotion for Neil Collins.
He seems to be an experiencedpolitician with ma has had major
roles in previous government.
So he has experience.
So he might be someone whomight steady the education ship.
Now I've never heard anything reallyfrom him about primary education.
And I can't think why he would be chosenover people above in the list for the
(05:09):
role, but he's an outsider , I don'tknow what batting rates are, but he's in
10th place in my view for the ministry.
Let's move on to numbernine, Hildegard Nocton.
I'm very much an outside that in thesimilar vein to Nial Collins has a junior.
I don't know if it's a junior or senioror is it a super junior ministry?
(05:29):
But it's she is a ministerfor special education.
And maybe this is seen as a steppingstone for the main minister for
education job, especially if the focusis tackling special education, which
seems to be the only show in town.
If you look at the newspapers, whenit comes to talking about education,
Our primary level, at least.
(05:51):
I don't know.
If Hildegard, Nocton got to grips withthe portfolio of special education
after Josefa Madigan finished up.
I don't think she had a lot of time.
I think she had to spend a lot ofher time going around to schools and
learning about the portfolio, learningabout things to say and what not to say.
(06:11):
She read from the scripts most of thetime, which I don't blame her again.
It's not a position.
It's a complex positionand special education.
I've argued has been neglected severely.
Over the last 10 years, at least.
And there's a lot of fixing to do.
And a lot of collaboration that's neededwith health as well as education, as
well as the department of children.
(06:32):
So it's not a singleportfolio, special education.
Isn't just an educational position.
There's a lot of other complex issues.
Around therapies around ourphysical supports around care
supports and things like dash.
Whoever it's going to be is going to needto do a lot of work in special education.
That's why I put here, the guardknocked an in as the main person
(06:52):
out her experience in other fields.
Which are also necessaryand possibly as important.
I haven't heard her speaking on,so that's why I have her maybe
further outside in that position.
Let's go to number eight.
So number eight is John Connolly.
From Faena foil.
(07:13):
And you might go, who.
Which is what I did because I haven'theard of them despite the fact
that he and I share the same job.
He is a primary schoolprincipal who is now a TD.
And being elevated to being the ministerof education straight away, just because
he was a primary school principalmight be as surprising given that first
(07:33):
time TD and Norma Foley got the nod.
The last time she was elevated straightinto the minister for education, which
is held onto for quite some time.
However, I feel this time.
There's probably a few people.
Ahead of them in the queue for the job.
Eh, he isn't somebody who's ever come onmy radar in the primary education world.
(07:55):
The prime education system is quitea small . And you would hear of
famous primary school principalsfor want of a better word.
And I've never heard thename, John Connolly in that.
As sort of sentences.
And you know, when people are speakingabout influential people in primary
education, I haven't heard JohnKennedy's name mentioned at all.
Maybe he's popular in his nativecounty and is well known there.
(08:18):
And clearly he's well respected becausehe wouldn't have gotten elected otherwise.
But it's difficult to know actually wherehe would stand on issues and education.
And would he simply do what norm ofFoley did, which was essentially read
from the script from their advisors orwould he having been a primary school
principal and knowing the strugglesof being a primary school principal
(08:40):
say I'm going to fix those things.
That's why John Connollyis my number eight.
Number seven.
Katherine Callahan from Faena Gale.
Now.
This is possibly my local biasshowing in a way being from
Carlo as Catherine Callahan is.
(09:02):
But it isn't for that reason, I puther up in lofty position, number seven.
And maybe I'm being a bit generous,but I think should make for a very
interesting minister for education becauseshe's involved in the education system.
But she isn't a teacher.
What would my culinary think of this?
Because she's actually a specialneeds assistance and being a
(09:25):
special needs assistant would bringa very interesting perspective.
To the education system, becauseit's, while you're in the education
system, you're a, I wouldn't,it's a, it's not generous.
To call you a kind of anoutsider on the inside.
But when people talk abouteducation in Ireland, Sometimes
special needs assistance.
(09:46):
Aren't as appreciated as they should be.
For their knowledge of the system.
And because they experience thesystem from a really interesting
perspective from the needs of what aresometimes called the most vulnerable.
And I don't like the term the mostvulnerable because they're only
vulnerable because they're notgetting what they should be getting.
But anyway, that's a bit ofa rant in the middle of this.
(10:08):
I think she'd be an interestingminister for education.
It's her first time being elected.
So it will be a massive jumpmuch like people before her.
And I'm not quite sure.
What she actually stands forin terms of education, because
I've never heard of her.
Despite being a local person.
So her high rank here might bebecause she is likely the most
qualified to tackle special education.
(10:30):
Which might own, which may beFaena, Gale's only interest in
the primary education manifesto.
Why wouldn't you put aspecial needs assistant in the
portfolio of special education?
I suppose if that comes up, but maybeif that's your main jump, it might
be the full minister for education.
That's got into the next on number six.
(10:51):
Carl Crow.
From Faena foil.
Remember him, anyone remember him thinkcast your mind back to COVID 19 days.
And there was a man called Carl Crowwho decided to pull up the sleeves
and do a day of subbing in his.
In his local primaryskill and kind of declare.
Infamous an infamous situationbecause it completely backfired when
(11:15):
it came across as being criticalof his colleague, Norma Foley.
Who was under pressure at thetime with the teacher shortage.
And she was denying as always thatthere was a teacher shortage and by
Carla Crowe going into a day sobbing.
At didn't really ruin withNorma Foley's narrative that
there wasn't a teacher shortage.
It was slightly, I think whatCarla Crowe is trying possibly to
(11:37):
do was what Leon Gradcracker did.
Remember Leo Varadkar and decidedhe'd add, pull up his sleeves
and be a doctor for a couple ofdays and go into the hospitals.
And I dunno, as he had given COVIDinjections at the time I got to, nobody
was doing to be honest, but anyway,people thought, oh, that was good, man.
Other people.
And so on.
Coho didn't come out of it as well.
But like I get what he was trying to do.
He has a primary school teacher after all.
(11:59):
But he's really never raised his head.
Above the power pose in termsof leadership and education.
I've never really heard himtalk about education short.
Of Geno.
The usual stuff Defina fall go on about.
And you know, it felt, I feel ifyou're a primary school teacher in
the doll, You should be saying more.
(12:20):
Than your average TD, when it comes toeducation, you shouldn't just be, you
know, towing the party line and talkingabout school lunches and free school
books, you should be talking aboutpedagogy should be talking about it.
What are the things that actual primaryschool teachers are talking about?
And he never did dash.
So I can't really see himadvocating for any changes.
To anything that Most peoplereally care about an education.
(12:42):
And I feel, he seems to be a nice man.
He seems to be a Joe McCue typeminister, like a friendly face,
but I don't see any massive pushfrom him to challenge the system.
Now it could be wrong.
My.
I have no dealings with them.
I only know him from thatinfamous day of sobbing Bush.
I never heard him really saying anythinginteresting about the education system.
(13:04):
So that's why I haven't furtherdown the list and some might think.
Number five, we're getting serious.
Now these are the potential possibilities.
And this is my, let's sayleft of field kind of concept.
I have, I had her higher actually,when I was drafting this list.
And just..
She fell down into number five possible.
(13:26):
Number five.
And that's Jennifer CarolMcNeill from Phoenix Gale.
And you might wonder why someonewho isn't a teacher or involved
in education would be so high upthe list in terms of a portfolio.
Because I think I see Jennifer Carl McNeiland I have no dealings with her either.
And as a TD that's in the ascendancyand for me, Carol McNeil would be
(13:47):
this kind of interesting left tofield possibility for the portfolio.
What I know nothing reallyabout your credentials.
She is one of the morewell-known ministers.
If you were to ask the averageJoe, on the street to name me
ministers in the government.
I think so.
I think Jennifer Carol McNeilwould be named by many people
as someone that people know.
(14:08):
It, despite I don't thinkshe has a major portfolio.
Again, I maybe I'm wrong in that, butshe's not in the big ones, you know?
And I think she's inthe ascendancy for that.
And if I think back to the previousfour ministers for education.
It's been either a complete unknownwho gets the position like Joe
McCue or Norma Foti, who nobody hadheard of before they got the jobs.
(14:29):
I remember when both of them are nice.
The first thing people did wasgo to Google rather than go.
Nah, yeah, I've heard of her.
Or it was a very senior politicianlike Richard Bruton or Rory Quinn
who were on their last portfolio.
That's a, who are going to go offinto the sunset and they may have
had something to prove or some sortof fleeting interest in education.
(14:49):
And we know what Rory Quinn's,our interests are on bridge.
Britain's ones where both really triedtheir best to push those through.
Education in a kind ofvery neglected spaces.
I've called it.
It might be a good opportunity for anup and coming politician to make their
marks such as Jennifer Carol McNeil.
I see her as this assomeone who's up and coming.
(15:10):
And I think.
It would be.
A calculated kind of risk.
To put her there.
In a way that.
You could, she could be used by the party.
To do something big.
Because if it worked.
It would keep the ascendancy going.
And if it didn't work.
(15:31):
I don't know if the fallout will be done.
But because again, it's, I'm sayingit's only education in inverted commas.
She's not going to crush the economyby, taking a risk in education.
And as I said, it's in such a tiredspace, such anything we'll probably work.
And.
I feel , over 50 yearson since do-now Marley.
(15:52):
Ma made an unpopular and riskand a revolutionary thing
for second level education.
There were possibly do.
Done O'Malley moment in specialeducation, or even in patronage.
Because I think we needa minister for education.
Let's take special education andthen separately from patronage.
We're definitely do arevolution in special education.
(16:15):
Like something, I don't know whatthe something is, but it, I think.
, there's something big needs tohappen in special education.
And I feel you need a very strongminister who will basically say
what we're going to do is we aregoing to sort as special education.
We are going to put a teaching assistantin every single classroom in Ireland.
(16:36):
That would be.
A big thing to do, which would helpspecial education out in a big way.
And if she did that will be amassive step for special education.
In patronage, it would be, she could,and again, this is something I'm
not naive enough to think she wouldcome in and say, I will separate
church and state, even if she mightbelieve that will be the right answer.
(16:58):
But the next step for patronage.
Is.
Diocese.
Any diocese basically saying we aregoing to divest all of our schools to.
Different patrons, I thinkthat's most likely to happen.
And that would maybe.
Make a fall through orshe might be braver again.
(17:18):
I'm not saying this iswhat she's going to do.
I note, I don't know her from Adam.
I just see her as someone who isthe most likely to do something
revolutionary take a risk.
She might actually say to the churchesas part of the abuse at scandals and
repayments that we're going to putin a plan in place over the next 20
to 30 years, where the department ofeducation is going to buy back all of
(17:41):
the schools in the country and run them.
And finally we can get a staterun system, which will respect all
people's rights and stop schools frombeing Running around religious lines.
I just feel she of all the 10 that wehave here, she's the most likely to do
something risky and possibly unpopular.
(18:03):
I think Rory Quinn and RichardBruton, both similarly tried to
do some very Quinn started off bysaying, I'm going to make sure that
we reduce religious girls by 50%.
It never happens.
Richard Bruton was really goingfor gung ho about Ireland being
the best education system in theworld at, by 2026, with the kind of
these key kind of w like you've ran.
I suppose the department educationlike a business, it was interesting
(18:25):
how he was doing it, but you coulddefinitely notice what they were doing.
Whereas Joe McCue and Norma Foleyreally just read from the script.
And didn't do anything and kept the ship.
On the road withoutactually doing anything.
So look, I am going on most about JenniferCarol McNeil, because maybe there's a
hope in me that she will, she does havedash She's most likely, I think because
she's on the ascendancy to do somethingbig and that might be potentially.
(18:51):
A stepping stone forbigger and better things.
And so that's why Ihave her in number five.
Let's move on.
Number four.
Porrick oh, Sullivan.
Now Portico is an, is a teacher.
Michael O'Leary would probably beappalled at me putting him this
high, but as an interest, do youseem to be in special education?
(19:13):
And that those two things combined.
Might put them higher up inthe list than others who I've.
Who've had ministriesfor special education.
Because he is a teacher,he has been Inish.
He gets it potentially.
And it might, it may, because again,it may possum prime seat for the
(19:34):
junior ministry and special education.
But it may, if.
If it goes on, he might get theforeign minister for education.
Again, his specialeducation is the big thing.
When we're talking aboutthe minister for education.
If we continue to have a Faena foilMendez for education could be him.
It's a Phoenix Gail minister education.
I would see him as the most likely,possibly one of the most likely
(19:57):
to get the special education post.
So an interesting character, Idon't know very much about him
and funnily enough, I'm not goingon as much about him as I did.
As our previous person, because Isuppose he isn't that well known, but
an interesting character that might getat some ministry in the education field.
Let's move to the big three here.
(20:17):
The most likely top three for theminister for education, I'm going to
start off with number three, whichis Thomas burned from Faena foiled.
Because the reason I haveThomas burn up there.
In a way is when finna fall did.
Get the minister for education.
Back in 2020, I think it was 2020.
(20:39):
It was a kind of a surprise.
That Thomas burn.
Didn't get.
The ministry because he was Faena falls,education spokesperson in opposition.
And it was Norma Foley who got the postsinstead of first time TD and Thomas Byrne.
I think whatever it may berightly or wrongly have been
(20:59):
sore about the fact that he had.
Lots of experience and education.
And probably should have got the position.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Again.
I'm not quite sure.
And from my point of view, Hisinvolvement in the end of the baptism
barrier was, it was interesting.
And in some ways, because he was actuallyslightly, and I'm surprised at myself
(21:19):
saying this, he was slightly moreprogressive than Faena Gail and Wei who
were in power with the baptism barrier.
Now I will say they felt very shortof being close to what was needed.
At the same time, , you have togive some credit to a conservative
sort of TD , being more progressiveto another conservative TT in
(21:40):
terms of the baptism barrier.
And I thought Thomas Burns performanceduring the baptism barrier, although not
revolutionary, at least he had an opinionand he didn't shy away from that opinion.
And it was slightly more progressivethan Phoenix gals for those of
you who don't know what he did.
Richard Bruton was very big intoprotecting minority faiths by ensuring
(22:00):
they could be discriminatory onreligious lines, on access skill,
Thomas Byrne disagreed with that.
That's basically the only difference,which to be honest with you.
Anyway thomas burner has continued.
I feel to flourish aroundthe education sector.
Whenever there's a thinggoing on in education, you see
Thomas burn in the background.
I think he did something on some sortof PE initiative there recently enough.
(22:22):
So it wouldn't be a surprise to me.
If Pinafore did have the minister for theministry for education, that he might get
the post finally in favor of Norma Foley,because I think Norma, Fody, I'm going.
Might have run her course at this stage.
And if it's a site step, I don'tthink it will be a surprise to
see Thomas burn in the post.
(22:43):
The only thing potentially.
Maybe in his way is we, it willbe a male taking over from a
female and do we have enough?
Female.
At TDS in ministries for education,just in terms of gender balance.
And that's not to say that normalFody might not get a promotion.
In fact, it's quite possible.
She may get a promotion.
I, when I say promotion I'm sayingthat from the TDS point of view.
(23:07):
I wish education was seen as a promotion.
It's still one of those positions thatsort of, you know, top not in your top
portfolios, although I feel it should be.
But you may find Norma fairlybe moved into justice or health.
And then Thomas Burns slipping in there.
Let's say he does.
What would we see?
(23:27):
I don't know if we wouldsee anything revolutionary.
I don't think from my point ofview, patronage would get a look in.
I don't know if we, if any area really.
Wood.
You know, get a massive revolutionary.
I don't know if Thomas Byrne issomeone who's on the ascendancy.
He may very well be.
(23:47):
He may think he is.
I don't hear him beingpictured or spoken about.
As someone who's risingin the Faena fall party.
And again, I could be wrong on that.
Maybe he's very highlyregarded and maybe he will be.
You know, A couple of years timeyou know, he'll be the T shock and.
I'll be like, oh, maybe I was wrong there.
But right now, from what I can see,I think is a steady pair of hands.
He might take over from normal,fairly, but I don't see too many
(24:10):
changes in terms of patronage.
I'd say he'll do is do a Bish.
He'll keep the ship sailing in my view.
Number two, we're gettingup to the top two.
Who do you think it might be?
And number two.
It's a Phoenix soil.
TD.
This is who I think was most likelyto be the minister for education.
If it's a fan of foil politician.
(24:32):
And.
It's.
Yeah, Norma Foti.
Yeah, I have a sneaking suspicion.
That if there is no promotion in invertedcommas for Norma Fody, that she will
remain in education to continue her finework in neglecting our education system.
She is the thing about her.
(24:54):
I think I have to live.
As teachers, we live in a littlebubble, we're we think we talked
to teachers, we, on most days ofthe week, we deal with teachers.
Most of the time.
I think she's.
Almost universally onpopular with teachers.
The thing is she's very popular.
With.
Outside of education.
In some ways I, I thinkthe media really like her.
(25:17):
And I think when people talk abouther in the media, Most of the
time, it's in a positive sense.
She shows the teachers.
I remember during COVID she was hailedas standing up to those teachers and the
unions and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I think parents like her.
Because she's brought in, she feels she'sbrought in free school books, free school
(25:37):
lunches stuff that's popular for parentsfree school buses and goodies, to I as
a yard stick to being a man educationminister, let's give parents free stuff.
And essentially, to me, I thinkshe's unpopular with teachers because
she's reduced primary educationto a really expensive childcare.
So free childcare service.
For parents rather than beingabout education, about pedagogy,
(26:00):
about it being, this is the thing.
I think why teachers reallydon't like Norma Foley.
And why I think parentsin Maine do like her.
And then the way when people speak abouteducation, they now talk about free stuff.
Free school books, free school lunches.
And isn't that great.
And when I get asked to go on theradio, that's what people say to me.
Isn't a great that, when I'mcritical, isn't it great though.
(26:21):
She brought in free stuff and I'm,it's really hard to say to people like.
But that's not.
Educational stuff.
That's stuff.
That's free stuff for parentsthat reduces people's bills.
It doesn't increase education.
We've spent the last 20 yearstrying to get rid of school box
in education where it's certainly.
Get rid of the reliance onschool books and now we're back.
(26:44):
To like completely relying on schoolbooks because we have to provide them.
And then the school lunches, a lotof people, I think school lunches
are a positive thing, by the way.
But I, the way they were rolled out,I have lots of criticisms over that.
Bush in the main, they'rea good thing, but most.
Teachers I talked to about school lunches.
They just, all they do is focus onthe tons and tons of waste and how
(27:05):
so many families did need schoollunches and are getting them.
I don't, I think sometimes, I disagreewith their points on that Bush.
It the waste is systematicit's because of the rollout.
I always argue everything hasbeen to do with patronage and I
to even include school lunchesand not the free school buses.
Again, I just, I'm critical of thatbecause we shouldn't be driving
(27:26):
children, cross counties and crossstreets to go to different schools.
Like not to their local school.
People should all go to the Rokuand that comes down to patronage.
But given the system that we're in.
You know what I feel, normal photos don'tas she's being a minister for parents
rather than a minister for education.
And I think.
Is that was that a calculated.
The calculator kind of thing.
(27:47):
It may very well have been.
And.
Would that be enough tokeep her in education?
The phone pouch.
Scandal of the budget.
May.
Have been.
Maybe problematic for her being carriedon as a minister for education, she kinda.
Dug her heels in and that rather thangoing quietly, dropping on she, you
(28:08):
know, so that will work against her.
I feel.
The education debate thathappened with the Incs.
She really messed up on thatone re like really badly when
it came to the teacher crisis.
I know.
I've been talking on Ivy listening toNorma thoroughly about the teacher crisis.
For five years where she denies it anddenies and denies, and she continued that.
(28:30):
In the in the education space.
A debate.
But no.
I only did she deny it?
She decided, I don't know howshe decided this was a good idea.
She decided to say that when people aresaying it's a crisis, She decided the
best comeback for that was I can somelanguages, ah, That the word crisis
and opportunity are the same word as ifthat was going to make people feel good.
(28:51):
So she may have really, I didn'tknow that there were two major goths
and they won't do her any favors.
If she wants the minister for education.
But I can't think of too many others.
And I've mentioned a good few of them.
That are in as strong a position.
For the minister for education.
Then Norma Fody I think Thomas Byrneand Portico a narcotic, they're
(29:14):
almost like a swap in swap out system.
I don't think they'drock any boats even cut.
What was the name?
Carla Crow as well.
They're just to a, it wouldbe more of a swap in swap out.
System John Conley, Nial Collins.
There are the other funerals.
None of them are like, I don't think.
Are going to make any changes.
So the way things are.
I, the only thing I could see is normalphoto getting , a different ministry.
(29:37):
And then one of those oddsstarting into the post.
As a kind of a step as a,I didn't have a stop gap.
Until, you got the reshuffle happento maybe Faena Gail got the ministry.
I don't know.
It's not a.
, there isn't a lot of people in Faena for.
Who are really making ways beingrevolutionaries for education.
(29:58):
And maybe there's someone there in thebackbenches or a first-time TD the mice.
Might be an interesting and might.
I just don't know of who mightcome in and revolutionize.
Education.
But if Norma Fody remained in theposition, I wouldn't really be surprised.
And.
I noticed I don't reallytalk about second level.
(30:19):
Hannah riffle is really annoyed.
Second level with There ather reforms and I don't.
And if they are going to pursuethat, continue to pursue that.
Normal Foley.
Who is, or was a secondaryschool teacher might be the right
person to keep pushing that.
If that's a vision.
I don't know.
I have her as a second.
Favorite.
And as I'm speaking.
I still think she's there's a high riskthat she'll remain in that position,
(30:43):
but there's also a high risk thatyou'll be moved to a different ministry.
I think she's done.
She's done well as a politician ratherthan the minister for education.
And may find yourself in a, inwhat's considered a higher position.
And I'm maybe one of the ladsthat if uniform keep the ministry.
One of the lad, Sarah just continuewhat she was already doing.
(31:04):
So in other words, I know the wordsof Norma Foti, doesn't get the post.
I see Norma Foley remaining in the post,just, it would be a different politician.
We're doing the same thing.
So we've gone through our top 10.
At number one, And maybe onsurprising to anyone who watched
the I N T O's education debate.
(31:24):
It's a Faena Gale minister, a.
Faena Gail politician.
And it is Patrick O.
Donovan who appeared on theeducation debate representing Faena
Gail, which is probably the mainreason I have him ad number one.
As the potential minister for educationand When I was writing my article,
I said that Donovan is my favoriteto take on this road, but that
(31:50):
shouldn't read as being my favoritein anything, but in the batting sense.
I would not like, and I wouldsay this very hand on heart.
I would not like Patrick O'Donovan tobe the next minister for education.
However, before I explain that, Iwill say why there may be positives to
(32:11):
him being the minister for education.
He is very likely to ensure slightimprovements to special education reforms.
Because I think he iscapable in that sense.
He knows.
The primary education system asa primary school teacher, I think
he's a primary school teacher.
With children.
In primary schools.
(32:33):
And it is possible.
Dash better funding will alsobe something he may fight for.
Given that he was a formerprimary school teacher.
However on the downside.
I was extremely frustrated by himwhen I watched the education debate.
With the IMCO.
(32:54):
I particularly his attitude tothe role of religion in schools.
This is my main, book bear, when it comesto primary education, this is my one.
When I talk about primary education,the main thing I look at is patronage.
That is number one concern I havewhen it comes to the education system.
And not just from the religious sense,although it stands from that, but also
(33:17):
the effect the patronage has on theeducation system and why we really need
to grasp it as a nettle and grasp itas something that we need to focus on.
Unfortunately.
He very much defended the statusquo saying he wants his children
to go to a Catholic school sothey can make their sacraments.
(33:41):
And it really frustrated me becausethat is the only reason he wants.
Or he said that he wants.
Catholic schools to remain becausehe himself wants to outsource his
supposedly Catholicism or is, I don'tknow what how religious he is, but I
S he strikes me as someone who fallsinto a cultural conflict because.
He sees the Catholic school as aplace to outsource the sacraments to.
(34:05):
And maybe he is super religious,but I don't think he is.
I'm pretty sure he isn't ad basedon what he was talking about.
But it just was so disappointing.
It was so disappointingto see a young man.
Who doesn't really representthe majority anymore.
Most parents.
And there are people betweenthe age of 31 and 36 these days.
(34:26):
Don't identify as as Catholic they'reonly 55 as a 50, 50, 50 5% of people.
Debra of that age bracket tickedCatholic in the last sentence.
And that doesn't mean thatthey're like religious Catholic.
Like I remember about 30% ofpeople who say they're Catholic.
Are traditionally Catholicnot culturally Catholic.
(34:49):
So you're looking at a very kind ofsmall percentage of people who cherish
Catholicism and it's it's because Idon't, maybe he is one of those people.
I don't really know.
And I'd love to have a chat to himabout it if whether or not she
becomes the minister of educationand really addressed that.
Oh no.
When he was asked about patronage,that it was all about him and
his needs and there was no.
(35:10):
There's just not a single kind of.
I don't know there wasn'ta single kind of thought.
For anyone that wasn't a culturalCatholic or even a strong Catholic about
wanting a Catholic school and no irony.
Around the fact that His own situationbeing more important than the
situation of anyone else around him.
(35:31):
And I was it always, it led meto a question about them and I'm
going to do an article on this.
About if Patrick O'Donovan happenednot to be parched, go Donovan.
And I happened to be Idon't know, let's say.
Someone who isn't Catholic.
A non-Catholic Patrick or Donovan, let'ssay someone church, a church of Ireland
(35:52):
at Patrick O'Donovan or a Muslim PachucoDonovan or an atheist Patrica Donovan.
Where he lives.
He lives in new castle,west in county, Limerick.
By the way, I'm not stalkingthat's public information.
And new castle west in county, Limerick.
I don't know very much about the area, butI, my, my sense and I've driven through
it is that there's a guayle school there.
I know there's Glasgowthere because I've visited.
(36:13):
And that's a Catholic girls school.
It's not a multi-denominationalbowel skull, I think.
I'll have to check that out,but I'm 99% sure of that.
And there's Catholicschools and I'm not sure.
I, there may be a church of Aaron's good.
I don't know, but I'm goingto, I'm going to find out this.
So with Patrika Donovan.
It was an atheist.
What school.
Where would you have to, he wouldhave to ensure for its children to be
(36:34):
insured, or if equal respect and skill.
He went to dry from Newcastlewest, into Limerick city every day.
And I can imagine that journey takesquite some time with traffic or
he may have to drive out to Ennis.
I think that might be on his way.
Another bit of a journey as well.
At to ensure his childrenwere treated with equality.
(36:54):
Similarly.
We would have now maybe I'm wrong.
There might be a an educationguide to scooter, a community
national school it'll coaster.
And this is why I have to do the article.
My sense is that there are the twomost There are the two schools.
That at least are going to behalf an hour of a drive every day.
To there and back in order tobe treated with equal spec.
Similarly, if he was a Muslim orJewish or some other faith that
(37:18):
isn't Catholic and I the challenge,I would have to Patrick, a donor and
I'm actually going to pick on them.
If he is the minister for education I, I.
About that sentence, that I'm Catholic.
And I want my children to go to aCatholic school so they can make
their sacraments quote unquote.
And I want to think, I wantyou to think about that.
If he wasn't Catholic and hownon-Catholic people in Newcastle
(37:39):
west feel about that opinion.
Now he would probably say that nevercomes to his door, but it's not
about the P I always say you haveto think, and I say this to my staff.
I say this to people around me.
About what you do when you'retaught, when you were thinking
about Religion and schools are, whenyou're thinking about talking about
religion or thinking about your own.
Th whatever your religion might be, youdon't just think about the people that
(38:01):
are in front of you, the people who are.
Who you're speaking to.
You always think about the peoplewho aren't in front of you.
They're as important.
And often they don't havethe confidence to speak up.
They're the people whoare in the background.
Because they are in thebackground, not because they
choose to be in the background.
There's the people who don't want toraise their head above the power pitch
(38:22):
because they're already vulnerable.
To the likes of I'm a Catholic.
I want my kids to go to a Catholicschool to make their sacraments.
Arguing against that.
As a minority faith.
Only gets you the sort of response thatI, January gastro disease is a Catholic
country and go away, get back to your owncountry and then all that sort of stuff.
(38:43):
It's not what most people want to hear.
Anyway.
Whatever tiny progress isbeing made in this area.
In terms of the Phoenix Delphina gal.
Government is just.
It's not good.
It's not happening.
And any progress that was being made wehad our first educate together school
divested from the Catholic church in 2023.
(39:04):
Or 2024, actually this year.
Warren educate go to school in 11 yearswas divested from the Catholic church.
That's the level of tiny progress.
I actually think even that tiny amountof progress is going to be curtailed
by that attitude of I'm a Catholic.
I want my child to go to a Catholicschool to make their sacraments,
that cultural Catholic sentence.
(39:25):
Of not thinking about anyoneoutside of your own house.
And.
I don't see any kind of mentionedprogress on patron is now in the finagle
manifesto, which means that it's gonethe 400 schools before 2030 has gone.
And with O'Donovan at the rains, Isee little hope of anything positive
for the thousands of families andteachers, because teachers who
(39:47):
are also affected, I don't thinkPatrick would don't even realize is
when he wants to send his conflict.
Census children's Catholic schoolsthat the teachers who are teaching this
Catholic stuff may not believe the stuffthat he wants them to do so effectively.
We've got non-believersteaching non-believers about.
To prepare them for thesacraments and it's just.
But the attitudes that, that is stillthere and I keep going on about.
(40:09):
There are teachers very mucheffected by this patronage model.
And I'm going to mentioneducation equality.
And I think I'm going to be mentioningeducation equality, the lobby group.
In almost every podcast Ido and patients, they are.
They are a super group who arecollecting story after story, horrific
stories of our teachers and parentsand children have to go through as
(40:29):
not being part of the status quo.
In fact, this week as I'mrecording one of the most.
Shocking stories of all.
And it's it's I suppose asthings go viral it's as viral
as these sort of things, gash.
Was the story of a teacherwho wrote to education.
Telling him telling them.
That she was in her costume and thepriest rocked in and took over the cost
(40:49):
and started asking the children to raiseher as a teacher and this kind of stuff.
That goes on and that'sjust one of many stories.
Where a teacher.
Who was working in a Catholicschool, whether they're Catholic
or not is being undermined by thestructures of the Catholic church in
is where you feel you are silenced.
You cannot talk.
About your about four.
Some stuff like, nevermind whether,you might not be Catholic or
(41:13):
practice, but even if you're doingthings that are slightly against the
Catholic church's teachings now aboutliving with your partner not being
married or whatever it might be.
There's still some teachers thatdon't talk about that just in case.
The there's a very overzealous prieston the board who might frown upon that.
Or maybe you might get a principal who'sfairly overzealous, or maybe you won't
(41:34):
have one now, but might have one in thefuture and you have to protect yourself.
All of that.
I am saying.
Is Patrico Donovan's source of whenhe made that sentence, that's the
sort of stuff I was thinking aboutit, but it still makes him the favors.
To be the next minister for education.
I do believe the next minutesof our education is likely
(41:54):
to be a fan of Gail minister.
He seems to be given.
He was the one that was putforward for the primary education
debate to be the born in.
I had to be the one in there.
He has experienced as a minister.
So there's dot going forum.
And I suppose he probably ison the ascendancy he's he was a
younger from what I was reading.
He was one of thoserising stars in the past.
(42:16):
He's now coming of ageand all the rest of us.
So look, I guess having said allof all that you know, I think
we might, that's why he's myfavorite to take on the position.
I'm not sure what you all think.
Maybe you think differently.
I'd be very interested in hearingabout who you think will be the
next minister for education.
I'm putting my I'm putting my betson Patrika Donovan to be named
(42:37):
the next minister for education.
Obviously, if the social Democratsor the labor party do go into
coalition, I will change thisbecause I would see the minister
of education going to one of those.
They have plans.
They have progressive plans that Idon't think Faena file and Finnegan.
God wants to touch.
But they would be wise enough to know thatthis is something that needs to happen.
(42:59):
And why not blame it on a labor ora social Democrat, whereas I was
woke parties as they might callthem for trying to push that in.
That's what requeentried to do back in 2011.
It didn't punish maybe 15 yearslater for nearly 15 years ago,
we were in a different bracket.
, look, I think I've spoken.
A lot here.
I don't know how many AkashI'm nearly an hour into this.
(43:21):
A fairly long, top 10.
I hope you've enjoyed my ponderings.
I should have one more episode beforethe end of 2024, where I look back on
the year, that was, I'd be interested tohear what your highlights or lowlights
were from the education in 2024.
I'm an interesting yearin education, maybe.
And until then I will chat to you then.
(43:43):
Thank you so much for listeningall the very best bye-bye.
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