198. Former FBI Art Crime Recover Agent, Robert K. Wittman

Robert K. Wittman had a remarkable career as an FBI agent for 20 years, from 1988 to 2008. Specializing in art theft and cultural property crime, Robert became the FBI’s go-to expert for these types of cases. His impressive work undercover led to the recovery of over $300 billion worth of stolen art and property across 20 different countries. His extensive undercover operations are detailed in his book, Priceless: How I Went Undercover to Rescue the World’s Stolen Treasures. He has fascinating stories. https://www.robertwittmaninc.com/

In 2008, after 20 years with the FBI, Robert Wittman retired from the Bureau and brought his expertise to the private sector. He sought to create a Security and Recovery Consulting firm that would draw on his unique investigative experience to protect its clients from losses related to theft, fraud or forgery. Since its inception, Robert Wittman Inc. has grown far beyond its original vision, providing protection and recovery services to more than 100 public and private collections worldwide. Robert Wittman Inc. continues to proudly serve a diverse portfolio of institutions, auction houses, collectors, galleries, insurance companies and Nations committed to protecting their cultural assets.

Martin’s mentioning of the Declaration of Independence almost forgotten when Washington …

Episode Transcript

(00:15):
Hello, Martin Wills your host, and I've got
a great guest this evening. Robert Wit. He
was a founder of the art crime or
investigation team. He's gonna correct me exactly how
that
how that goes. And he's been at it
ever since. And this was back in
many years ago, he was traveling all over
the world,
undercover. He's got great stories,

(00:37):
and I have a lot of questions for
him. I'm pretty excited to talk to him.
He was on the show 12 over 12
and a half years ago, something like that.
And the lot's happened since then. So...
Alright. Great to see, Robert. Hey, Martin. How
are you?
Good. We've been kind of in touch ever
since last time here and there and, you
know,
but a lot has happened since you were

(00:59):
on the show. I'd like for you if
you would to tell the listening audience, you
know, your background, and you you were involved
in art cut. Recovery all around the world.
You did all these amazing things. Have a
lot of great stories and a very successful,
a book that was on the top,
recovery wasn't it on the best sellers list
for a while just call... It was just

(01:19):
named this week by the Wall Street Journal
It's the third best...
Art crime book ever.
So Right. I was happy to see that.
Yeah. It's called price.
How I went undercover to rescue of the
world's stolen treasures.
Yeah.
And and you did, you and everywhere and,
you know, I mean, these are really amazing
sting operations, but before we get started into

(01:41):
all that, How did you...
How did that form in the beginning? And
was it kind of your brain brainchild or
did someone approach you about it? Well, no.
What happened was, I went the Fbi. I
I started in 19 88. And the thing
that got me interested was I I was
watching this Tv show. And I really like
it called Miami Vice.

(02:01):
Some of you might remember that show. Yeah.
And quite honestly, I want to be... I
want to be crockett. I want to be
the guy. You don't want the... And on
the cigarette boat in Miami Arbor with the
white suit, you know, and the Lambert Lamborghini
or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I thought that would
really cool. The cold music, you know, So
IIII
applied to the Fbi, and I got in,
and I put down from my top 3

(02:21):
offices since I was coming out of Baltimore.
I said Baltimore, Honolulu and Miami.
And they sent me to Philadelphia.
So
you serve at the needs of the bureau.
That's the way they way they put it.
And, I guess they need to be in
Philly. So what happened was, Got I got
assigned right off the bat to what we
call the truck hijacking squad.
That was a squad in the office that

(02:43):
did the interstate investigations of theft.
And there was a problem at the time
of
of truck give ups. Load give ups between
New York and and Miami. And a lot
of them were getting being given up because
that was during the crack days, you know,
when the drivers would get hooked on crack
and then give up their loads in order
to get more drugs.
So that was happening quite often and we

(03:04):
had a whole squad until philadelphia that was
best getting that and property crime in general.
And it just so hadn't weren't that the
first 2 cases that I was assigned when
I got to the Fbi in Philadelphia
were 2 museum heist.
1 from the university of Pennsylvania museum of
archaeology and anthropology, and the other from the
from the renowned of

(03:26):
August
you know,
I'm thinking rent more, but it's not. It's
Oh,
Okay. It just ran on my head. Yeah.
You know, was a man with the broken
nose was a sculpture that was stolen. And
It was done by Rear. You know, August
were down.
And so these pieces were stolen. I was
given those investigations, and I investigated. And actually
was able to recover those arc artwork works.

(03:47):
And and lock some people up so then
the Fbi in their infinite wisdom,
decided I would be that guy and do
those
investigations.
Yeah. Well, it helps that you have a
background. I remember you're telling me that you
grew up your dad had an Asian arts,
antique business.
Yeah. My my father was in

(04:08):
Japan during the during the Korean war, and
he fell in love with Japanese antique.
And when he came back to the states
after 7 years and being in Japan, he,
he brought back a Japanese wife and 2
2 sons.
And as a result, he decided he wanted
to get into the antique business, and he
specialize in Asian antique. He opened this... Store

(04:29):
in Baltimore called Whitman Orient Gallery. Of course,
that's not politically
safe to say anymore. So tell, I guess
it would be Whitman Asian gallery. Let... He's
Japanese.
They still use the term orient rug. You
know, I do hear that. Yeah. Yeah. But,
yeah. So, I mean, that's that's a very

(04:49):
difficult
study or it can be. You know, the...
When it gets into
other Asian arts, Korean and and, Chinese and
stuff like that. And my dad used to
have a saying that the,
the Chinese have been faking
antique porcelain for thousands of years. That's play.
Yeah And they were. They would they wouldn't

(05:10):
necessarily fake them, but they would just keep
going back to a period that was popular
and, you know, redo the style that that
type of. Well families even, you know, families
can create the the porcelain because it comes
from the same ground as made with the
same materials.
And many times in the same way, just
like in the American Southwest.
You know, the Pueblo tribes they make ceramics

(05:31):
the... Today the way it's made them a
hundred years ago, you know, in the Kiln
creating that that... And it's made with the
same soil. So it's hard to determine how
old something is even today, So, yeah. It
and it's not because they're faking it and
I think. It's because that's the tradition. And
that's, you know, that's data down from father
to son to taught it and so and
mother to daughter, and that's how they make

(05:52):
it. Yeah. I love some of the pope
pueblo pottery that you... You know, you mentioned
some of the black on black.
I'm Maria and it's this some great native
American Potter. Or more, you know, Still are.
Yeah. Maria Martinez is in Same Yeah. That's
what I mean. That's the. Maria. I love
I love her work. Yeah. So
as far as
the material,

(06:13):
what is it, in Encompass. When you wanna
say, like art crime, does that actually...
I know that you mentioned before that it
actually includes, like, you know, antique and things
like that, but with that also covered jewelry
and jewels and precious metals and things like
that, how wide ranging is art theft.
Well, you know, when we talk about our
crime, you have to talk about the art

(06:33):
business world. And and just from an overall
standpoint, you know, the art business is a
200000000000
dollar business every year. That how much gets
bought and sold around the world. 200000000000.
Wow. And and
about 40 percent of that is in the
United States. 80000000000 dollars. That's what our market
is.
We were asked back around early 2 thousands
by the New york times to come up

(06:55):
with the Fbi is as to come up
with a estimate of what the actual art
crime market is. And we we after doing
an, study with the Carbon urinary in Italy
and also the Oc, which is the French
Art theft group and then also,
it's Scotland New arts and Art antique squad,
we came up with a figure of about
6000000000 dollars a year to be the organized

(07:18):
art crime market around the world. Now I
gotta tell you today. Probably,
75 percent of that is not theft. It's
fraud forge fakes.
Okay. Whereas about 25 percent, maybe 1.5 to
2000000000 could be. Could be theft.
And the other thing You have to understand,
Martin is when the Fbi and myself, all
of us When we talk about art crime,

(07:40):
it's really cultural property crime. That's what we're
referring it referring to. And that includes everything.
It's not just sculptures, prints and paintings.
You know, it's also things like comic books.
Like baseball cards, you know, antique cars.
Rolex watches,
all of these types of collectible,
luxury materials are all part of the know,

(08:01):
cultural property market.
Right. And when something becomes valuable, it gets
faked. I was at a lecture of this...
You artists paintings were selling pretty well,
and there was a Q and A after
his lecture. And I said, has anyone ever
faked your work that you know of. And
he just started laughing. He thought that was
the most ridiculous thing, but he did have

(08:22):
1 of those styles that would be very
easy to fake
So that's what I'm gonna do. You know,
no just good. But anyway, I'm we did
have 1 of those styles. Yeah up. And,
you know, demands. Pretty good money for us
this thing. So... Yeah. And I I find
that whatever gets valuable gets fake.
Whatever gets valuable,
gets fake. And also gets stolen.

(08:43):
Yeah. You know here's how you have to
look at it. Your criminals are out there,
and they're watching the news and read the
newspaper. I see these sales. And they see
a picasso myself for a hundred and 50000000.
And they think that themselves, well, you know,
it wouldn't be that difficult to go steal
1. And even if you can only get
1 percent. That's 1500000.0,
you know, for the... For something you Don't
money in. And that's a a nice profit.

(09:05):
So
most of the time, what we've seen is
that individuals who are criminals are better criminals
than businessmen.
You know, they can go out and do
the job. They can go out and steal
the artwork, steal the piece. But then it
comes up to be a problem of what
do you do with it once you have
it. And that's where the real art in
an art heist. It isn't the stealing. It's
the selling.

(09:27):
There was a there was AII
would have looked this up if I had
thought about it, but you... I just
it just came to mind. There was a...
I think it might have been serious on
Netflix or something and was involved in a
woman that was selling
art at our New York gallery
and it was all being produced by
a former

(09:48):
art, you know, professor or something in his
garage. And he was making, you know, George
Brock and all these major artists paintings.
And he had... Like, if something was missing,
he would make the size and what it
would sound like I'm talking about the catalog
resume where they wouldn't know exactly where the
piece is, then he would make that mysterious
thing. I mean, it was it was very,

(10:09):
very involved.
Yeah. And... Yeah. That was the the No
gallery case.
Well, happened there was that there was the
gallery, of course, in New York City been
been open for a hundred years.
1 of them... Real real main battleship galleries,
you know,
in New York,
had represent artists for for, you know, since

(10:29):
the 19 twenties.
And had some big name artists that they
you represented.
They started buying some pieces from a a
gallery owner in down in in lower Manhattan.
Who had come into them and said that
that she had a client who was a
collector of Ab art, abstract expression art for
the 19 fifties,

(10:49):
she said that this client was Mexican by
heritage, but lived in Switzerland,
and would come to New York in the
fifties and sixties in by art directly from
the artist studios,
and that he had kept this material in
vault in Switzerland,
all these years
had passed away and now his son was
gonna be selling this art out,
out of the vault. And It was things

(11:10):
like Jackson Poll, Mark Roth go,
You know? Oh, so it wasn't... It wasn't
George Brock.
No. Was that based on that 1. Yeah.
Okay. So she started selling... She convinced the
gallery.
That these pieces were legitimate. The gallery did
a their due diligence. They did study the
pieces. They they, they looked into the Proven,
they took the pieces to the experts with

(11:32):
the Mark Roth piece. They actually took it
to his frame who is still alive. And
she looked at it and said, yeah, the
frame is correct. You know, everything about. Correct?
You know, they they took it to the
national gallery.
And the... Right now, the National Gallery has
2, researchers that are doing a new, you
catalog raised day have Mark Ro his artwork,
and they told the gallery that they were

(11:53):
gonna include these in the catalog raising as
the real real Roth goes. So the gallery
did its due diligence.
It come to pass. It turned out that
the the artwork were being created by a
Chinese artist in Brooklyn.
And,
actually, he was indicted and he fled back
fled to China,
the gall from lower Manhattan. She was indicted.

(12:16):
She actually served a year in prison,
and her coke coke conspirators who live in
Spain have also been indicted, but they haven't
been extra expedited at this point.
I was the, expert... I gave the expert
testimony in that case.
From fraud
for the fraud civil lawsuits.
And I was the gallery witness, actually,

(12:38):
explaining why it wasn't fraud on the gallery
part because they did their due diligence, and
they believed that these pieces were real when
photo.
And about 65000000
dollars worth the artwork.
So since I left the bureau, I had
60 these that's a lot of the things
I do now. I do a lot of
expert witness testimony
for fraud. And
1... Either way. I mean, whether it's... Real...

(13:00):
I go... It depends on the situation. If
it's if it's a fraud, I I say
it. And if it's not, I say, well,
they didn't know. So it wasn't. So, you
know it depends on on the facts of
the case. But, you yeah, I had to
read about 15000 pages of deposition for that
case.
Okay God. Wow. Now
we talked just briefly before we went live
here, and, you know, we're we're talking about

(13:21):
certain things that are selling like the crazy
comic book prices
And also,
the baseball cards that have just been selling,
like, for these astronomical
prices.
And do you have an idea why that
is? I mean, we're talking millions of dollars
for a single baseball
card. I think that there's 2 parts to
that. First is that there's

(13:44):
individuals or groups of people who are
you know, who have grown up, maybe the
baby boomers is what it is. Because that
baseball card that's sold for 12000000 dollars. Was
a Mickey Mantle rookie card. So someone who
remembers Mickey Grant man, you know, from the
fifties and sixties would've have been the 1
who wanted... That. So it's, like, baby boomers
possibly who have made it well, done well

(14:04):
in life and, I wanna relive their their,
you know, their childhood and their their times
in the past.
And I think that that's part of it.
You know? It's a it's a it's a
nostalgia
type of thing. And so that's That's it.
But then that doesn't explain how, you know,
a,
Tom Brady rookie card sold for 2200000.0

(14:24):
dollars.
I mean, that's... Yeah. That was from the
year 2000. It that's that's 20 years old.
I mean, how did... Why would somebody pay
2 and a half million dollars for Tom
Brady Rookie card? It was signed. You know?
That's here's the thing about...
This is what I would imagine would happen.
People are gonna get wind to that, and
they're gonna start looking in their collection.

(14:44):
Mh. Then you're gonna get... I've seen this
happen many times over the years. It's like,
you think it's, like, pretty rare and then
next thing, you know, there's elections 4 more
in the next option auction You know that
type of thing. Yeah. There has drop.
They're
ricky panel cards. It's all based on the
condition of the card. Right. 1 is sold
for 12000000 was was looked at and was
given an a 9 rating out a 10.

(15:07):
Recently, another 1 sold, it had, like, a
5 or and so for 3000000 dollars
But even as such, I mean, it's all
about a little piece of cardboard, You know,
I would make the mel picture on it.
And, and needs weren't signed, and, you know,
millions of dollars I would tell your your
viewers.
If you have a baseball
collection that your parents had that you have
up in the attic. Go take a look.
See what you got. Yeah. Because... Yeah. And

(15:28):
you might wanna get it insured because, you
know, the criminals know this. They see it,
stealing a baseball card collection. And isn't a
federal offense. The Fbi may not get involved
in that. And you might just
interstate. Yeah. Well, you call the local Pd,
and they're gonna come out and say, what
was stolen, your baseball cards, You know. It's
so... Yeah. It's not gonna be considered as

(15:50):
you know, as serious in situation. So, you,
you know, you might wanna get those insured
and make sure you you haven't secured.
You know, I've seen, you know, my friends
had it Mickey Mantle.
Baseball card, but it was... I don't think
it was a rookie, but still, they weren't...
They weren't rare, you know, when I was
a kid. You know? Now, he played for
15 years or whatever card every year.

(16:10):
So... Yeah. Yeah. No just happened.
Yeah.
You know,
I do wanna get into some of the
more to sophisticated things that you've done, you
know,
undercover basically. But I also... I I just
have to touch on a couple things here
and to
and... I'm gonna make a statement. I wanna
hear what you say about it, because I
do believe it is a true statement,

(16:32):
back in 19 11, the Mona lisa was
stolen from AAA
of employee with some help of a couple
of others. And
That's really the reason we know about the
Mona lisa today and why it became the
world's most famous painting.
Do you think that's an accurate statement? Oh,
absolutely.

(16:52):
Absolutely. Yeah.
I was involved in a I guess, of
a documentary movie about that. Case. It was
it was created. And,
absolutely. I mean, then publicity about that when
it happened was the first time that something
like that actually captured the the
imagination of the world. I mean, there was
articles in New york times and in all
the different newspapers around the world, photo

(17:14):
pictures of the painting itself and Yeah. If
it had been for that, it would just
be a small Vinci in in the louvre.
But as a rebuttal of that theft, it
became the most famous well known painting in
the world.
And then there was the... Did you happen...
I'm I I don't even have to ask
you this question. I know you're gonna say
yes. Did you happen to watch the documentary
called for lost Leonardo.

(17:37):
Yeah. I was in it.
Oh, that's right. Okay. Yeah. What a crazy
movie that is in that has to do
with the, sal gun, this salvador,
Monday.
Let's see. I I have a picture of
it. And the before and after of that
painting because it's...
It was majorly
restored

(17:58):
I don't know exactly what the percentage of
the painting is original to it, but there's
for those who you watching this on Youtube.
Here's the before and after. I I did
speak with the restore on that. I was
trying to get her on the show.
Very nice lady,
but she just was too busy.
But
the that story is just so wild. Yeah.

(18:20):
I mean, it was bought auction for, like...
Do... Did, like, get 15000 dollars originally? Originally.
Yeah. Original first sale.
I and then how... But that movie
made me see the side of the art
world. I had no clue about the vault
and the things held
you know, in a tax free.

(18:41):
Oh, yeah. Your environment.
And all this art that's s away that's
amazing that nobody's ever gonna get to look
at. That's basically
kind of a shame. So they're trying to
avoid taxes.
Yeah. So they they store have in tax
free havens, like Singapore,
used to be switzerland with Singapore even Delaware,
State of Delaware,
doesn't tax material coming into the state. So

(19:02):
they put them in storage there too.
And their investment pieces. They're not for enjoyment,
you know, of collectors. They're basically investment pieces.
There's a lot of art that's an investment
pieces.
Yeah. And you know, I mean, isn't a
kind of a tricky in my opinion, I
guess if you have, like, a really big
name. It's solid.

(19:22):
But,
you know, I I always
consider that investing in art can be a
a tricky thing because of fad
I'm talking about more contemporary art. Things can
change all the time when it comes to
that.
There. But there are household names,
You know that are just solid or have
proved to be so far. Right? I recently

(19:42):
had a case that I just finished in
January. It was in troll, New York. And
where I was the expert witness. In this
case, it was an involving a,
a Russian collector
who had bought In fact, he had bought
a out of Monday, the, Vinci. And he
was 1 who sold that guy. I told
400000000.
Yeah. And when when the when the... The

(20:04):
august of the shower, the cheek bought it
for 400, it... He was the seller. And
he had paid I think, a hundred and
30000000 for it. And so He was threatening
the guy he bought it from? Wasn't he
threatening him? Like... Well, it wasn't threatening. It
it was the the I guess he bought
through So.
And
So offered it to him for... They were

(20:24):
offering it for sale for about 70000000.
And his his art advisor told him me
was a hundred and 30.
And Oh, that's what it was. That's right.
Yeah. And so he has nothing to do
with him after that. That's right. Yeah. Well,
he he's been a bit a... But I
think almost 2000000000 dollars on art,
you know, Pic picasso,
particularly. I mean, all the biggest things you
can think of. And,

(20:46):
basically, he was supposed to have paid about,
you know, 800000000000,
but he got he got hood wink, for
the 1.2, and that was what the lawsuits
were about. He was suing Southern because as
a c
with his with his gallery, you know, his
gallery guy. Who was from Switzerland, who supposedly
was you know,
basically cheating him.

(21:07):
But So was,
was was acquitted, and the Oli carte walked
away with basically nothing. But that's that's that's
how goes. You don't. It's the art industry.
Well, I know
I know the character of, I knew someone
that was Russian for quite a while. And
I know the character. They don't let go
easily if something. If they feel they're wrong.

(21:29):
In general, you know, so I'm surprised that
he walked away. I mean, he actually made
the 400000000 though.
Right? Oh, yeah. He really doesn't have a
lot to complain about when... He's got the
art too. He's still got the art. I
mean, he can still the art as well.
So he'll he'll he'll he'll be. He'll be
okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
Alright. Here's a question that came from Chad
here.

(21:49):
Can you share 1 of your most memorable
or challenging cases from your time with the
Fbi.
Sure. Sure.
There were a lot of different cases. I
mean, if you pick up a case... If
you pick up a pro a copy of
priceless list, that was my memoir that I
wrote back in 2010.
And I think there were probably 14 cases
in there that we did.

(22:13):
When when you say the most memorable, I
mean, there's a difference between the most valuable
and, you know, the most important. Alright?
1 of the most important cases I ever
did was the recovery of a of a
Us battle flag. It was a a battle
flag that was carried in in the civil
war It was carried at to battle Port
Hudson, and it represented the twelfth regimen cord

(22:34):
Duff. In other words, it's 1 of the
first of 18 regiments
of only 500 men back then it was
a thousand, but they... This was a a
black of African Americans.
And as a result of being a black,
but they only had 500
because they didn't believe that they could organize
a thousand, you know, black Americans at that
time to be in a regimen.

(22:55):
So this was the twelfth regimen cord. It
was carried in battle 5 regiment standard barriers
were shot out from under the flag. And
it was stolen in the 19 eighties
in route to a fort in South Carolina
from
from a Fort in Washington, Dc.
So in route it it was taken.
We we got wind of it, and we

(23:16):
did... I did it under undercover saying I
was gonna buy it and sell it to
a collector in London.
We, it was only valued at about 30000
dollars at the time. And
but the... But and recovering was important, but
the thing is, what it represented. You know,
with the first time and in Us history
this is early on. When, you know, Black
Americans could fight for their future and fight

(23:38):
for the freedom of themselves, and all of
their children from their own out. And that
was just... It just represented so much more
than the 30000 dollars.
So the value wasn't as high, you know?
But the. As far as price, but the
value of the history and the culture was
way up there.
And then put that just that that another

(23:58):
case I did involving a original copy that
was stone of the civil Right. I, I
mean, the bill price. Right. And that was
taken in 18 65,
from the State House of Raleigh North Carolina
when Sherman troops were coming north after Sack
Atlanta.
I were coming back up the East Coast
and they stopped and Raleigh took over the

(24:18):
state house to have North Carolina surrender. So
it's the end of the war. And 1
of the troopers went into the state house
and basically stole
the,
the Bella rights. It was sent to
North Carolina in 17 89 by George Washington
and to be ratified. That's... You know, I
was part of the constitution. Yeah. So

(24:39):
this this soldier stole it. It was... It
took it back to Indiana. It stayed there
until 2003
when we were able to recover it 1
was being offered for sale by 1 of
the Antique roadshow appraiser.
It was being offered for sale to the
National Constitution center in Philadelphia. For 4000000 dollars.
Now,
we... You know, North Carolina, 1 of their

(25:00):
pay... Their copy by it belonged to the
state that belongs to the people. Couldn't be
sold. You can't own that piece of property.
It's stolen, you know, to begin with. So
we able to do another owner cover there,
and,
we're able to recover that.
And the value of that as far as
as far as the, price
has been estimated at a hundred million. Because

(25:20):
the only document Us history that'd be worth
more. Would be the declaration of a depends.
There's only 1
of those. Yeah. There was 13 copies of
the store. 13 copies, and 13 copies of
the declaration as well. And that they come
up. There's
2, I think missing still.
1 was found in the back of a
a print in the frame in the back.

(25:42):
I don't know if you ever heard that...
At the time it sold for 2000001
of the 13 copies. And I got to
see it. I went to New York to
see it. And, yeah. I mean, handwritten That
was
decoration. Martin, that was the printed copy. It
was found in a
well, the printed copy. Yeah.
That was the that Right. What happened was
when get a broad sign. Where they printed

(26:02):
the declaration because after it was announced
and then put it out, you know, for
the for the 13 college people to read.
What I'm talking about is the actual handwritten
black link. Copy of the.
Addition of the pillar of the of the
declaration of independence. It's only 1 of those.
And, you know, that was almost forgotten when
the... When Washington was burning.

(26:23):
And,
you know, and the war of 18 12
when...
That was...
There's a story about everything was low. The
important papers were loaded up in the wagon
and ready to go, and the guy, that
was in charge of it. All of a
sudden, he just noticed it at the last
minute and cut it out of the frank.
Got it out in there. Yeah, But I
mean, pretty amazing.

(26:43):
Yep. That was out.
Yeah. Yeah. That was actually painting of George
watch.
How do I that mixed up? Yeah. I
was in the White House and Dolly Bass
was there. And why are you sure about
the declaration. I'm gonna do some research because
I read about... It was claiming the decoration
was in a black frame and almost forgotten.
But I mean, well, the... The George Washington

(27:05):
painting was in a white house. It was
hanging, and it was... And as the British
came in.
Dolly Madison is credited with having having saved
that painting, pulling it out. It was 1
of the peel paintings having pulling it out
and having it you know, it's taken away
safely. But the truth was. The truth is,
it was a slave. Yeah, Dolly Bass slave

(27:25):
that actually saved the painting. She always got
the credit for, but it wasn't her. It
was it was her it was her slave
did it. So
it's it's a it's a different story. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard to know the
the true things as they get passed along.
So as far as
museum. I mean, I would assume that the

(27:45):
most of art theft is like from private
and, you know, private homes, private people, private
collection, things like that. But there are a
lot of, you know, that you have dealt
with
museums
And, you know, I can't help, but ask
if you happen to know if there's anything
new

(28:06):
when it comes to the Isabel Stuart Gardner
museum. The heist of 19 90.
Yeah. That's a in really interesting cases isn't
and it the
these these things been missing what, 34 years
and not
about 1 of the 13 pieces that were
taken ever been recovered. And that's in spite
of the fact that there was a 5000000
dollar reward. For information leaning to the recovery.

(28:27):
And now it's 10000000 dollars. So the fact
that these... These... That kind of money has
not brought out any good leads
that have helped us to recover those paintings
and objects apart.
Yeah. You, you know, for your audience,
there might be some people out there who
don't know what happened. You want me to...
Yeah. Yeah. Would you... Yes. Yes. So, sure.
At 19 90 on S saint Patrick's Day

(28:48):
night. 2 individuals draw dressed is Boston police
officers went to the museum isabella to start
garden museum, and they told the guards that
they had on the arrest warrant for 1
of them. And they needed to interview. So
the guards let them in that which was
against all the rules, but there was 2
guards there. So the 2 police officers went
in, of course, they weren't cops. They were
thieves.

(29:08):
They they tie the guards up to pipes
in the basement, and they went around the
museum for the next hour and a few
minutes, and they stole 13 objects of art.
2 of the pieces are were just priceless
list. 1 is a,
wednesday premier, known as the concert. It's the
only premier missy in the world. And the
other was a rem and cheesecake scape and
called the

(29:30):
c
the storm over the Sea Galilee.
And that was the only... That's the only
Cheesecake rem brand ever did. And so as
a result, the heist that night was valued
at 300000000
dollars.
Today, those paintings are worth about 500000000
if they're good shape, which makes that, this
is interesting martin. It makes that the single
biggest

(29:50):
property crime in Us history.
I mean, think about the single biggest property
crime in Us history is an art heist
from a museum.
Now we're not talking about, like, made off
crimes like fraud. This is a property crime.
Where 1 time people stole stole stuff.
You know. Yeah. And it's right 500000000 dollars
worth. So it's the biggest in history and

(30:10):
none of it's ever been recovered.
It's crazy. And if you go in, you
see the frames Obviously was there over, you
know, months ago, and the frames are just
sitting there empty and it's haunting.
Yeah. To look at them. And then was
something like a eagle staff or something didn't
even make sense of the things that they
they told. Of the pieces that was stolen.
Well, yeah. You, when your viewers read prices

(30:31):
the priceless list. So see,
from 2005 to 2000 8II...
Got chronic it in the book. I was
undercover.
Working in Miami
with inform.
And, with criminals and who were from France.
And and in that case, we went from
Miami to Bar,
the Paris to Marseille,
chasing the Rem brand and the premier.

(30:54):
They supposedly had information both of those. They
knew where they were at. They wanted 30000000
for. I was undercover as a, basically a
shady dealer who was gonna raise the 30000000
to buy the pieces.
And we ended up recovering 2 picasso
that were stolen from Diana Picasso, the granddaughter
in Paris. Yeah.
As well as 4 paintings that were stolen

(31:15):
only gunpoint from the museum of Fine arts
and niece,
the 2 B in Sicily and a monet,
and after that, we were supposed to be
able to do the the rem of Premier.
The French police wanted us to do those
cases first.
Because of Monet and sicily,
were owned by the Abuse,
which is, of course, the national Gallery of

(31:36):
France,
So when those patient paintings went missing, it
was a big push to get those back
by the French police. And, of course, Picasso
granddaughter Diana lives in Paris.
So they were still these 2 picasso
were valued at 60000000. They were stolen from
her apartment. So they wanted to get those
back.
So, the problem was that when they finally
did the the niece case,

(31:58):
1 of the police told the bad guys
that I was an Fbi agent.
And that kinda of blew our chances to
get the premier in the in the
in the
prem brand. But here's the thing.
You mentioned the Eagle.
Now, when we were doing that case,
the people who had the paintings were supposed

(32:18):
to be in cor ago. They're supposed to
be Cor and Mobs.
Okay? Course guys island off the Coast of
France in between Italy and France and over
the years, it's been home by both countries,
but it's a a very close system.
And so these were supposedly Cor kid mobs
officers that had that had those paintings.
Now, 1 of the pieces that was stolen

(32:39):
in the robbery was a cor Eagle.
So there was... There's 2 flags at the
museum of the first regiment napoleonic guards.
Of course, Napoleon was from Cor rica. And
when he was exiled, that's where he went
back. And his first regiment was his actual
guard regiment that that protected him.
So they had these 2 flags from the

(33:01):
first regimen of cor guards
at the Phil isabel Gardner museum. And on
top of those flags are 2,
and each of the fin is the cor
eagle.
So during the Robbery in 19 90, the
thieves stole along with the paintings,
1 of those fin,
the plastic in Eagle. Okay? And so... That's

(33:21):
a good clue right there. You know? When
you come back and look the case that
I was working on, and they told me
these 2 pennies were in Cor rica. It
kinda comes together makes sense. So your your
your your your viewers have to rep prices,
and you'll see all the ins and out
on that if they're interested in in the
gardner theft.
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know what I mean,
so if you did not have to chase

(33:43):
that other art, most likely,
you would have recovered.
Those was amazing pieces.
We were close. I thought we were close.
Yeah. Yeah. And the French police did do.
I mean I was working with the Colonel.
At the John Dom marie at a time.
And he's... You know, he still says that
we're we're were we're right there. It's just
that there's a lot of ins and outs

(34:03):
of international policing.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure you have to
do all the protocols right, you know,
could you have actually
made a mistake that would, you know,
somehow forfeit the work. You know, I mean,
is is there something you do... You you
have to do everything exactly by the book
I imagine. Yeah. Well, you have to follow

(34:24):
the laws of the country that you're in.
You know, That's that's kinda how works. I
mean, I I did a case in Madrid
in Spain. Or after we recovered about 65000000
dollars worth of heart,
I actually had to go before a mag
rate in Spain to be, let go because
I was... I was committing a crime. I
was buying stolen property.
You know? And I'm not a I'm not
a Spanish policeman. Right? Yeah. So as a

(34:46):
result, you know, they the Spanish police and
the prosecutors had to go tell the judge
that, you know, I was working with them
as an Fbi agent. Therefore, you know I
wasn't a culprit. Same thing happened to me,
in Denmark on a rem that way we
recovered. I was working under undercover, and I
had to go before a judge in Peru
and Lima did same thing. So yeah depends
of a country you're in what you have

(35:06):
to go through. Yeah. Now when you're...
You probably... I don't think everyone put...
Would
consider secrets or whatever. But how... When something
happens,
like, something gets stolen
you mentioned earlier that you were in touch
with a bunch of basically criminals
that were in Miami, you know, from France
or whatever. Is that the first... Go to

(35:28):
a place because the words out in between,
you know, the, basically, mob or criminals or
how do you approach
the first go to place that they go
to the site of the theft. I mean,
that's where you go first.
Ultimately, over time, you know, our travels. It's
property.
Whether it's you know, whether it's a Chevrolet
or a Mona, it's gonna travel.

(35:49):
And if you don't get it back early
on, it's gonna go somewhere, and then people
are gonna... Try to sell it. And we
usually recover things when they start to come
back to market, whether it's being sold under
undercover to a policeman,
or if it's being sold at auction by
people who inherit things, or even who go
out and buy things and don't realize or
stolen, and then try to sell them again,
that's when we recover them because we we

(36:11):
find out at that point that they're being
offered.
So it's always when it comes back to
market.
When how can someone protect themselves? I know
Proven noun is really
key. But, I mean, if you're, like,
You think you're buying from a reputable dealer
or were you go into a shop and
you buy a painting, and it ends up
being stolen and you put it in an

(36:31):
auction. You didn't know. All a sudden you're
out the money. It's gone. And and then
they check, you know, where did you get
it where you... You know, they'll go back
on the chain.
It does...
The person that sold it... I mean, are
they liable to pay their client, you know,
the 1 that lost. Yeah. Well, what you
know Is that hard do. They're gonna buy

(36:51):
art. He should make sure you buy from
a reputable dealer who's gonna be there. Or
you know it's gonna be there in next
in the next 2 years where you try
to do something with the art.
Basically, stolen art ends up playing like musical
chairs with people. The last 1 holding it
is the 1 who doesn't have a chair.
So at that point, he loses the art,
he's gotta go back and try to, you
know, rewind his transaction. And if a person

(37:14):
he's gonna rewind with isn't there anymore or
is a shady person. You know, he's stuck.
So you have to do your due diligence.
It's really important today. A before you spend
a lot of money on a piece of
art. Is something Do in my company. We
do do diligence Proven research
to,
authenticate
the pro nazis that are given on pieces
of art. In other words, if somebody says

(37:36):
to you well, this was owned by buying
grandmother. We're gonna go talk to her family.
And find out it for grandmother actually owned
this piece. And how far back did they
know that the grandmother had it. You know,
when we're talking about valuable pieces
because you don't want a piece of artwork
work that has a blanket the proven from
the 19 thirties from Europe. It could be
Nazi stolen art. You don't wanna a piece

(37:56):
of art that there's no no proven on
because it could be stolen from a museum.
And in the United States, if something is
stalled from a museum, and it has to
go back.
There's a new statute. That's it's a result
of the Isabella store gardeners theft that makes
it a federal crime.
To steal an object of cultural heritage from
a museum.
And

(38:16):
possession of that is an ongoing crime. So
there's no statute limitations is basically on the
possession aspect of it, which is new. It's
a different thing. So people have to realize,
you know, but just give you an example
there was a Reno small and more,
50000 dollar piece, was stolen from the Bo
museum of art in 19 50,
and small so a family

(38:38):
actually bought this little piece
at a flea market, and they went to
sell it at a auction house and then
it became known. Of course,
the insurance company owned it because they had
paid off to the baltimore Museum, but it
went back. So they they didn't have a
lot of money invested in it because they
bought it cheaply at a flea market. But
they had a... They thought they had a
good windfall, and it it turns out, they

(38:59):
had nothing because, you know, It was stolen
properly. So you have to know do your
due diligence,
and make sure you're not offering something for
sale that's illegal
or, you know, that has bad pro that
has been, you know, stolen from somewhere else.
So there's is AAA
quick... I'll try to make it quick. There's
is a story of... Because it's someone that
I knew that bought

(39:19):
a box full of, you know, paintings and
everything at this beautiful
mansion,
and and it was an early 18 hundreds
mansion Brick mansion and,
with... I know the house and there was
some really nice artwork in the house. So
they bought a whole box of the woman
was selling things out of the... Out of
the attic. Why it was in the attic.
I don't know. But he pulls it out

(39:40):
and he looks and it's a panel and
it signed homer.
So,
he takes it, and he, you know, he
does all the work on it, and,
I guess,
enough people believed in it, but he had
to... Bring it to Good rich, good Lloyd
Good rich or whatever. He passed away. So
it was Abigail Go booth. That was a
woman's name and and Washington,
George Washington,

(40:01):
university.
So we went there, I I guess, without
an appointment, and try to get her a
look at it, and she, like, yelled and
said do whatever everyone else else does I
send a transparency. And... So anyway, bottom line
is, she called him up, and she said,
where did this piece come from? And he
said, well, actually, it came from yard sale.
And she basically hung up on him She

(40:22):
said, no wins home comes out of a
yard sale. You know what I mean, this
it's just showing you how important it is
to have... I mean, he may have well
been holding
a home or his hand. Yeah. But now
it doesn't have...
That's the problem today in the art world.
I mean, the authentication committees don't exist anymore.
The world hall committees is out of business,

(40:42):
the Bo Committee quit doing it.
And then because they were getting sued so
many times. They they'd look at a piece
and they say they didn't think it was
wheel. Didn't think it was right. Of course,
once they do that, that the choice to
value of the object. And they were getting
sued. And so people were contest their their
announcements.
So most of them are pretty much out
of business.
Today's world, if you're gonna be a art

(41:04):
collector, you should buy something that's in the
catalog raise an a. If somebody comes to
you with a new boss, that nobody's ever
seen before that, you know, but Ba had
hidden in the... Behind the radiator in his
basement.
Don't believe that, I mean, it's just... You
know, it doesn't matter if it's real or
not. It's not gonna be accepted.
Okay? Mh. I got... I had a painting
come to me from a person. It was

(41:24):
a sa. Signed Sa.
It was in the family. There was a
history of it. There was a signed
bill sale
from, a,
a gallery.
Okay. That it was on the street in
Marseille in 19
18,
So this gallery on this street in Marseille
sold this painting to this relative who was
a, I think he was a duke or

(41:45):
something.
In France, and we had all the documentation.
And It was a very nice little, you
know,
du genre piece, you know, I think some
tomatoes and Can or something, you know, on
the table. Look just like it say on.
Actually, had forensic work done on it, and
we found yellow, candle pigment in the paint
that was banned by the Indian government in

(42:07):
18 99 that Ce did use but it
was banned because it came from the urine
of sacred cows.
So the Indian government didn't allow to be
created anymore, but Say still had some, in
19 18 or in 19 17 whenever it
was.
So, you know, it's pretty good pro. I
mean, it's good for forensics instance. It's good
history. We got the build of sale.

(42:28):
But, you know, And oh, they paid a
thousand Fran for at that time in 19
18 18 19 70. So, you know, all
it came together, but it wasn't dedicated authenticated
because the authentication people, who we looked at.
It said, no. It doesn't look right us.
We don't like the... We don't like the
stroke.
So
That's the end of that. You know,

(42:50):
shame. But that's a great off the ea
and they could still kill it. I can
still kill it. And and, you know, it
happens all the time. I had a case.
Yeah. Another case involving a Jackson poll.
It was owned by the... The the girlfriend
of Jackson, not the wife, not not lee,
but it was... It's his girlfriend who was
with him the night he had the car

(43:10):
accident
And she said this was the last painting,
he gave it to her. He did it
for her. So in the 19 80, he
went... She went to sell it.
Well, they couldn't authenticate it. So what they
did forensic, we had a, a forensic investigator
used to be... He was at the, at
Ny.
And he worked at John j college. So

(43:30):
he looked at it. And we found
microscopic,
polar bear hairs
in the paint, polar bear hairs. Right? So
we went back to the house, and, of
course, in his bedroom a polar bear rug.
The Dna on the polar bear hairs matched
the rug.
My But but the Jackson paula committee said,
yeah. That might meant that it was in

(43:50):
the house. Doesn't mean he did it.
So... The value goes away. Once again. I
mean, I... Nobody's gonna be 20000000 for that.
You see? Yeah. So... And Jackson Poll, unfortunately
are 1 of the ones that are... Fake
so often, you know, with because of the
type of pain he used and and all
that, you know? And it also exists that
the pain can be gotten today is still
out there. And, you know, there's

(44:13):
I I hate to tell. III did it
another case involving an an attorney who had
30 poll paintings in blood online. 30.
And he wanted to get him authentic authenticated.
He's... You know, because if piece were real
is probably a billion dollars, you know, worth
of art. Yeah. So he told me where
he bought me he bought him online out
of out of a a gallery in Miami
and actually Fort Lauderdale.

(44:34):
So I went to Fort Lauderdale find this
gallery, and it turned out to be flea
market. It was a flea market in fort
Lauderdale.
And it I came out of the Harley
Davidson shop. Okay? There was lady and there
we saw these paintings.
And I saw what's what's going on with
this. Well she said, we don't sell fakes.
You know, they come from China, and everybody
wants in Florida wants a real jackson poll.

(44:55):
So we sell them for about a thousand
and 1500 dollars a piece.
And people can put them 1 all. They
say they got a Jackson poll. And, you
know what? There's nothing illegal about that. That's
not being sold as a as a 4
or a fake. It's just it's just a
drip painting, and people wanna believe that the
tax supply. You're gonna pay a thousand dollars
for a 20000000 dollar painting.
It's just what people want. So...

(45:17):
Does there's a lot as like, the degrade...
So does it degrade the original art in
any type of way or the 2 separate
things. Now because everybody wants 1... There's not
a legitimate poll in any museum in Florida.
Yeah. So... And they always love to have
1.
So that the the hundred and 10 or
snow that are authenticated they're out there. They

(45:38):
keep their value. It's a problem with the
new ones that people show up with. You
know, that, like, 1 of the ones that
was sold by Mold.
They sold them for I think 6000000000, and
it was it was wrong. It wasn't real.
So that's what happens, You know? Now I
went with a piece of the jury
years ago, I'm gonna say 25, 30 years
ago for a picasso. Someone that owed me

(45:59):
some money and
and they gave me a drawing, you know,
basically.
The drawing was very,
it was very graphic that I would not
hang in the house and had kids at
the time,
so I ended up just, you know, trying
to sell it, but I I went to
the jury and they said that was something
like the 40 first drawing he did that
day.

(46:19):
That's how many... I mean, it it was
crazy when that came back with that. They
knew the drawing. Yeah. Yeah. They knew it.
Look look at the... I have a couple
of pieces, you, from the 03:47
series.
And so if you think about that, he
did 347
etching. Over the course of about 9 months,
you know, doing a few day. And they
were... We produced 50 times each

(46:40):
So that specific series has what 18000
pieces in it.
That's why the biggest stolen art... You know,
the the artist with the most stolen Art
in the world. Is Picasso
because he was so prolific with all of
his all of his prints and etching and
things.
Right.
I'm seeing my screen frozen. Do you see

(47:01):
guarantee see.
You still look great.
Oh, good. Okay. I don't know what's going
on. But you can still hear me and
everything. Yeah. I can hear you. But you're
you're fur.
Okay. You're back. Here you are. Yeah.
Alright.
So...
When something, like, let me just see. I
I did have a question. No, yes.
When something is

(47:22):
stolen and a
situation, like, for instance, the Nazi,
you know, there was all that stolen art.
Do...
How often do...
Are you aware of do families actually get
some of their artwork back rep
to them?
Oh, quite often.
I mean, you know, it's still a stolen
property stolen pride. Now, Nazi alluded aren't, a

(47:44):
little bit different. I mean, that comes under
their treaty obligations that were signed. In 19
46 after the second world war.
And those are all civil cases. They're not
criminal cases. And oftentimes they have to go
through civil
court proceedings.
To be able to recover those pieces. You
and, I recently recovered a piece I was
stolen in, Hawaii.
This is just last year. It was actually

(48:06):
offered for sale It was a a 30000
dollar piece. Not really expensive, but it was
stolen in 19 70. So I've been missing
for 50 years.
It was interesting because the the artwork itself
was a a painting of 5 children. And
these children were the or the, it was
4 8, and a dentist office that worked
with kids, and the the dentist had it

(48:28):
hanging in the office to to make the
kids feel comfortable. And It was a very
nice painting.
Anyway, it was done by the the woman
who did the big eyes. You know, the
big eye paintings, the... Oh, yes. I've priest
of 1 of those Yeah. I know you
mean. Yeah. Yeah. Very very she could become
great. There was a movie about her a
couple years ago and... Yeah. And so she
had done the painting and back in 19

(48:48):
70, and they had bought it, and it
was hanging. It was stolen. Off the wall.
While everybody was at the lunch 1 day.
So, she calls me, and she says, you
know, the our my my my father's painting
has been sold. It was a heritage
And so I said, well, how could you
prove with yours?
So she sent me a newspaper article from
19 70 in the Hawaiian newspaper in in

(49:09):
the Honolulu times or whatever.
But also what was interesting. The painting itself
had a little girl in the middle of
it, a 5 year old girl, and it
was her,
she was the model for the painting. So
she sent me a picture of herself when
she was 5,
and and I... And when you compare that
my the pay, you couldn't miss it. It
was her get out. And so that's why
it was so important for her to get

(49:30):
it back.
Ultimately, Heritage did the right thing. They, the
arranged for it to be recovered. They paid
the money back to the buyer, and we're
able to give it back to the to
the woman, and she's got hanging in her
home, You know, today in Honolulu. Yeah. So
the family was recovered. So there are good
stories about recoveries for families. You know, it's
not always

(49:50):
some lawyer making hundred million dollars. Know, oftentimes
it is a family that gets their stuff
back it means something to them.
That's right. That's what's really important. Margaret Keane.
That's who that is. That's it. Yeah that's
true it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I
I raised 1 of her paintings recently Was
like, whoa, they still for a lot of
money here. She was still alive, but time
She just died it, about, 2 years ago,

(50:12):
a year ago. She just passed away. But
at the time when we were talking about
this, she was still alive, but she actually
remembered the painting, so we're at helped as
well.
Now a little a little off topic maybe
I don't know, But what do you think
about? It seems like there's a lot of
activists You see them like super gluing themselves.
To, like, a piece of art or trying
to dump pain on it. I mean,

(50:34):
I just can't understand their their way of
thinking, you know, you and I've talked before
about, you know, once these things are destroyed,
you know, a lot of, you know, obviously,
they're not destroyed but they're they're protected mostly.
Mostly of these things are protected. I don't
think anything's anything's has been destroyed at this
point. It's...
You know, they all have usually clear clear
glass or something kind of coating and what
they're doing with they're smear the coding with

(50:55):
the... Yeah the blood or the jelly or
whatever it is. Absolutely is it a good...
Is it a good
protest? I don't think so I think that
maybe the first time they did it once
people might might paid attention. But by the
hundredth time, you know, everybody realizes that they're...
Who they are, what they're doing.
Do I disagree with them? No. There is
a climate problem. Absolutely, there is. And and,

(51:17):
absolutely, we need to address it?
Does it help that they do that? Due
do I think that that makes it
more prevalent? No. No. And the fact it's
a hundred degrees out yesterday.
Makes it very prevalent when it's a hundred
degrees of Philadelphia. Okay? So I don't think
there's any question that we need to address
that, but I don't think you know, sm
artwork makes a difference.

(51:38):
Right.
What did you... Did you happen to see
any changes
when Covid happened and during that and changes,
like, prior to Covid and now as far
as art in collecting or anything.
Now, I think that the...
I think During Covid, things went online very
heavily, and I think that's changed, auction auction.

(52:00):
I mean, the auction houses that survived,
basically, started online auctions, you know, online only.
Yep. And,
that still exists. I think it it works
out pretty well. I mean, if you think
about, you don't have to be there. You
can buy things anywhere in the world,
anywhere in the country. And you couldn't bid
on it and whatnot and so online. So,
and much more so than it was before.

(52:21):
You know, in words they still did it,
before Covid, but now it's just commonplace.
So I think that that made it was
a small change.
Yeah. The... I think a lot of product
galleries when it going out of business. Didn't
have any anymore walking clientele.
Yeah. I think it really hurt the cruise
ship gallery business. The the cruise ships weren't
running anymore.

(52:42):
But that's back. I think a hundred percent
as well.
I think it came roaring back. You know,
when people were allowed to go out. I
think it
it it really helped the economy at that
point. That's why we had this big boom
in the economy, even in the art world.
So, you know, it went down, but it
came back, and I think that's a good
sign.
Well, I remember, I
trying to think who it was... I interviewed

(53:04):
during Covid when it first started, interviewed auction
engineers around the country.
And,
Wes, I'm trying to think of his name.
He's in Ohio.
Anyway, His comment was
collectors have to collect. They'll figure out a
way. And I thought, wow. That was great
wisdom, you know, because

(53:24):
They work. They're for you to know. Yeah.
Yes. I have all some of those online
things too, You know, the auction ninja and
all these different things that were.
Things start out at a dollar and then
they end up, you know,
6000 dollars or whatever or something. Yeah. But,
yeah. It gets it's it's it's a way
to do it. It's a lot of work,
but it's a way to at least get
it sold keep it I like it I

(53:46):
like to touch. You know, I like to
actually see for myself, that type of thing,
but still... That... That's the that... The danger
of it is that, you know, you don't
get to actually touch and feel something. So
you don't know. It it could be fake.
Could not be real. You know? And you
wouldn't acknowledge you actually we're able to feel
it or even condition purposes, you know, take
a... Think what you were talking about earlier,
Maria Bowl. You know, you wouldn't know if

(54:07):
it was repaired unless you can run your
fingers around the the top of it. The
you're how's a fun if you Exactly. And
and if it, you know, you won't feel
the the the tension or the or the,
you know, the the ridges or something that
show for the re repair. Those are things
that you have to touch to be able
to do. So you get it and you
got a a busted bowl that's been repaired,
you know, half at.

(54:29):
You know, and it's not a good thing.
Right?
Yeah. So we're we're right near the end
here, but I wanna ask you because I'd
know asked last time because I think it's
kind of a funny statement. There's a lot
of people think of,
like, a romantic,
you know, art theft art thief, like Pierce
bros bra and or someone like that or,

(54:50):
you know, like crawling down all these
places and, you know, with all the tech
gear and they're doing all this stuff to
create this heist.
How far... That's pretty far off. But, yeah.
It's been pretty far fetched. Yeah. I mean,
you know, there's different classes or groups or
criminals,
and as a hierarchy. The the higher criminals
are the ones who do to fraud

(55:11):
and the forge,
there's some pretty good artists out there, who,
you know how to fake of art, you
know, and who can copy.
And and then you have these the common
thieves or the ones who ground do stealing.
Basically, they're they're... We used to look at
it as a, you know,
a way into different gangs. Because they're gonna
be doing how many different types of clients,
and they just happen to do an arc

(55:32):
theft. So they're they're not just doing this
they're doing, you know, gun running, drug dealing,
all that sort of thing. So that's a
different different thing. Now what I do just
just like you... Your
you know, viewers know. I'm gonna be doing
2 separate courses this year.
1 in September, August,
for I far, which is international Foundation of

(55:52):
Our research. You can go to their website
and sign up. I'm gonna be doing a
5 lecture course,
covering all different aspects of crime. The first
1 is basically theft. The second 1 is
the 3 f's of our crime for odds
4 fakes, then anti antiquity theft. The then
broken document theft the iconic car hard heist.

(56:12):
And each other cases
basically feature
all cases that I was in. In other
words, these different topics are all about cases
that I did. So you'll be hearing the...
You'll they'll be hearing the actual background stories,
what really happened and what's not in the
newspapers. You know, that's our of thing. And
so we'll, we'll be doing that for them
and also for Christie education, in November, I'll

(56:34):
be doing the same series. So if anybody's
really interested in following up and, you know,
getting into art crime
for real, you know, and learning about it,
but not committing it, you know, getting my
sign up for 1 of the courses.
Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna tell you this...
1 last story is I was when I
had my auction company,

(56:55):
I was ready for I had a pretty
big auction, a nice auction, and the guy
called me up. He says I'm from New
York City and I'd like to bring up
a painting to put in the auctions Said
well, it's already, you know, it's already... The
auctions put the bed. It's catalog out and
whatever, you know? But he said, no, no.
I said you you're really gonna want this
painting. So
I met him at a,
at, like, a rest area. He came up

(57:15):
from New York. And he's... He gets out
of his car and he go, the air
smells so good here and it was, like,
you know, all that. And I was a
little worried, and then I opened... He opens
the back I'm looking right down at a
Georgia O,
you know, big big flour.
Turns it over it gallery labels all, you
know, old gallery labels and new Gallery. It
was it was right as rain. And I

(57:37):
said, you're giving this to me to put
in an auction on advertised. Is that is
that what I'm mean?
Understanding here. And he said, yeah. Just run
it through it it'll take care of itself.
And, I said no. No. I'm not I'm
not gonna do that. So you know? I
mean, obviously,
he said always parents this gallery for years,
but you don't just...
I mean, all the red flags went up,

(57:58):
and I had the sense all the... Have
his own only in my thirties, but I
had the sense to
walk away from it. How'd walk away. But
you do tell and go back to New
York? He Yeah. Well, III told Mister is
the only way I'll take this is if
I know the prominence and I can advertise
it well in ahead. You know what I
mean? Yeah. I still had no business selling
a painting like that, You know, but still,

(58:19):
I would have gladly have had it? No.
Yeah. Well what did he ever come back?
No. I never heard from him again. Yeah.
You know, we found that it's easier to
fake the gallery labels.
You know? It probably was. Yeah again. Now.
Yeah. Because that's that's something that, you know,
good fake know. You don't really have to
have a great penny. You could just have
good calorie labels. And put them on the

(58:41):
back and that makes sense that is something
I never thought of. I never thought. You
see we used to see there's a lot,
especially coming out of Eastern Europe, you know,
from Turkey. It get smuggled through Turkey to
to Germany and you have all these great
gallery labels on it. And it would be
all, it would look old, you know, and
have all that with it, but.
You know, It's just fake.

(59:01):
Wow. Well, you know, I always say when
it comes to start work it's guilty till
proven innocent. There you go. Really. It really
has to be. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
another very pleasant
conversation. I really appreciate it. Appreciate time. And
the book is priceless list it's out there.
You can get it on Amazon. And,
again, I really, I really appreciate all of

(59:22):
that you've done, and we've been in touch
off and on over the years and... Yeah.
And I'll be in touch with you again
about a situation. So anyway thank you very
much... Let's do it again in 10 years.
Sounds good to me. Alright.
Alright. Thank you. Thanks, Buddy. Take care. Yeah.