The Feather Mechanic

Gordon van der Spuy is renowned as one of South Africa's premier fly tiers, and his passion for the craft shines through in every aspect of his work. For Gordon, the function always dictates the form when designing flies. He doesn’t just follow recipes; he reimagines them to create flies that truly perform. Join us for an engaging exploration of Gordon's innovative approach to tying and fishing flies that deliver results.

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
Welcome Ask about 5 fishing Internet radio, your
source for learning more about 5 fishing and
cold water, warm water and soap water. Hello.
I'm Roger May. Your host for tonight's show.
On this broadcast we'll be featuring Gordon Van
view and we'll be answering your questions on
the Feather Mechanic.
The show would be 90 minutes in length
and we're broadcasting live over the Internet. If

(00:29):
you'd like to ask gordon in a question,
just go to our homepage and ask about
fly fishing dot com. And use the q
and a text box to send us your
question. We'll receive your question immediately and we'll
try to answer as many of them as
possible on the show today. And while you're
there, make sure that you sign up to
receive our announcements, so you don't miss out
on any of our future broadcast. Just fill
out the form on the right side of

(00:49):
our homepage. And we'll let you know when
the next live show will be. This broadcast
is being recording will be available playback on
our website within about 48 hours after the
show ends. You can also find it on
any of the podcast sites like Apple Podcast
podcasts, Google Podcast podcasts, stitch pitcher, or wherever
you listen to your podcast.
So if you have to leave early, you
can return to our website or any of
the podcast platforms at your convenience and listen

(01:12):
to the recording at any time. If you're
out in the bell on Facebook Instagram or
x, which sure appreciate. If you share our
and when you do, use the hashtag ask
about... Fly fishing and hashtag
fly fishing. Fact, if you have a moment,
to do it right now while you're listening
to the show. The content of this broadcast
is copyrighted is a of the knowledge group
inc, doing business ask about fly fishing. When

(01:34):
we return, we'll be talking with Gordon about
the feather of Mc mechanic. Property
En Rico with Lacy flies pride themselves with
creating unique and 1 of a kind flies
and fried material. En Rico has been experimenting
with durable synthetic and natural materials to create
flies of catch fish for more than 30
years. These innovative products include brushes, fibers and

(01:56):
components,
that have made a major impact on the
direction of saltwater fly fishing and his methods
and materials are respected worldwide. Whether you want
your fly for you and you'd like to
tell your own, be sure to visit Rico
Pug flies and browse through their online catalog.
Visit ep p flies dot com and do
a little shopping today. Again, that's ep p

(02:17):
flies dot com.
Before we introduce Gordon, we'd like to let
you know about the great prizes we have
to give away tonight for our drawing night,
we'll be giving away a 1 year membership
to 5 fisher International. Any a 1 year
your membership to try unlimited. Now if you
haven't registered yet for the drawing, you can
do so now, just go to our home
homepage, which is at ask about life fishing

(02:37):
dot com. And look for the link under
Gordon section that says register for our free
drawing. Click on that link and fill out
the form and we'll announce the winners at
the end of the show.
We'll also be giving away a copy of
Gordon book the feather mechanic. Now, here's how
you can win. You must be the first
person to answer the question we ask at
the end of the show. The question will
be about something

(02:58):
that Gordon and I have talked about during
the show. And you submit your answer along
with your name and location using the text
box on our homepage, and that's the same
text box you can ask questions in during
the show. So listen closely, take notes, pay
attention and maybe you'll be the, lucky winner
of the feather mechanic.
So hang tight and

(03:20):
the attentive
Our guest denied is Gordon Van.
Gordon
also known as the feather Mechanic as an
actor, author, podcast.
Life tire and fly fisher from South Africa.
Art has always been a way of life
for him and has helped him communicate better
with the world around him.
Pictures have a way of explaining things like

(03:40):
few other things can. So when Gordon wrote
his first book, feather mechanic, a flight time
philosophy,
illustrated it too. As a young boy he
found inspiration, the likes of Dave W lock,
Oliver Edwards, Charles Jar and South Africa's owned
Tom Set.
These author artists had a big influence on
Gordon who all had a hand in shaping

(04:00):
the way he worked. The premise behind has
booked is that to tie effective and efficient
flies 1 has to allow the form to
follow function. Figure out what you need the
pattern to do and then tie it to
fulfill that purpose. Call it purpose driven flight
tying as opposed to just tying by the
numbers as were. Dine by the numbers to
will always be limited. The path to fly

(04:22):
time enlightenment, it seems lies in understanding the
logic behind, and what makes effective flies for
effective. In essence, Gordon whole approach seeks to
find the logic and everything he does. Gordon
welcome ask about 5 fishing Internet radio.
Thank you, Roger.
Thanks.
Thanks for staying up so late in South

(04:43):
Africa.
I know It's late there, and it's This
is a an odd thing for us to
be doing this in the middle of the
afternoon here, but we do what we need
to do to get things to work. Again,
thank you so much for going out ways.
The pleasure.
Just the pleasure.
So
Okay.

(05:04):
So
let's just start with what inspired you to
write the feather mechanic
in a reverse play. Well,
Okay. So I was on a Facebook group,
and someone asked me a question,
and the easiest way I could.
Could explain it to the guy was to
draw a picture.
So I drew a small little diagram,

(05:25):
and I said your problem is that,
and that's how you solve it.
And then after that, someone else asked me
a question, and they said, hey, I'm having
trouble with it.
What do I need to do?
And I draw another picture. And after about
a week of doing this, various people asking
me to draw pictures and explain things.
Someone said to me, why don't you write

(05:46):
the book?
You know, why don't you do it? I'm
loving these little drawings and I'm loving your
explanations, and and they're explaining things in
in a very effective way, an efficient way.
In a way that's easy to understand,
And if you did this, I'd buy a
book, and I thought...
Okay.
And

(06:07):
I told my wife,
on the Sunday said, I'm gonna write the
book.
And I put it on Facebook, and I
told people. I'm writing a book. If anyone
wants to order 1, you could start ordering
it I can't tell you when it's gonna
be done, but, yeah.
I'm writing this book. And 2 years later,
I finished the book.
And I can imagine all the... After reading

(06:29):
through it, you know, all the illustrations it's...
Must have taken an enormous amount of time,
much less the writing, of course.
Well, the illustrations take way longer than the
actual writing?
Each drawing each drawing takes about anything from
an hour to 3 hours to draw.
And wow If you think of that first
book there, I think there's something like 217

(06:53):
drawings in that book.
Through the math. Right?
No
have. Yeah.
It's yes. Yeah. It's yes. You basically drove
for a it's just draw for all. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, seems like you enjoy it. Is that...
I just out of curiosity. Do you draw
those

(07:14):
larger and then shrink them down for the
book? Is it... Is that how it's done?
Well, I do draw them larger, and then,
yeah, we do shrink them down. You just
get a crisp image if you do that.
This is cleaner,
and and also in the way of we
reproduce the images. We've learned a lot of
the years.

(07:34):
In the beginning, we used to scan the
images.
Okay?
But later on, we learned that that's not
the best way to do it The best
way. Is to further photograph the images, and
then edit them from day.
And and in in that way, you get
a clearer image
Because if you wanna scan an image properly,

(07:54):
you've gotta use, like a drum scan like
an industrial drum scan, and it's very. Expensive.
And
I'm an actor by trade and a self
publish.
So I had to find a way too
to get a good quote at the image,
but,
in a way that that didn't break the
bank either. And the best way to do

(08:15):
that was 2 photographs.
And then you could use Photoshop or whatever
to clean them up and if needed and...
Yeah. So forth. That makes sense. That makes
sense. Gonna ask you how you got started
in fly fishing and fly tying. Was that
early on in your life?
Sir, it's quite interesting. I...
I got sent to choir school when I

(08:36):
was 13 years old.
Okay?
And there's a choir school in a mountain
range in South Africa called the Drake sp,
and it's the Drake sp boys choir school.
And the first day that I arrived there,
I saw boys standing
Gordon I've lost you.
I don't know if you can hear me,
but I can't hear you anymore.

(08:58):
I'm trying to get him back on now,
so Okay. Maybe this is Him, Harry.
Roger. Can you hear me? Yes. Now I
can. Yeah. We lost you there for a
while. You left off...
If you had said you had... You're talking
about going to the boy school is where
you weight lost you. I went into this
Car school in the mountains.
And on the first day there, I saw

(09:20):
a guy practicing his costing, and and I
asked him if you could teach me.
And that's basically where I started. You know,
when I saw this guy costing, I just
knew that's something I wanted to do. I'd
even know what he was doing,
that I just knew it looked the call.
So so... Yeah. So the where fishing started
for me.
And was that fishing or was that fly

(09:40):
fishing? It was?
Yeah. That's just fly fishing. That's why I
always tell people. I don't think you choose
fishing. I think fly fishing chooses you. You
know? You see it and it's just something
clicks,
and you just you to do it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was kind of the
way with me too. I think I was

(10:01):
about third... Teen.
I had fished with my dad,
but,
a neighbor 2 doors down
was
taught us out of type flies. And so
we had our little local mentor as well.
So And did you start tying flies then
as well? That's fishing?
And well, about a year later, I started

(10:23):
tying flies. And
I didn't know anything about flight tying. So
I didn't even know that you tied flies
with the vice.
So I just tied flies in the way
I thought they should be dark
and I got some sewing thread from my
mother.
I cut some hair off the dog, and
I had a old little car,

(10:43):
and I tried to tie this fly. And
I tired it. I named it after the
dog. I called the Gold N.
And if it's terrible it, this is a
really bad fry. But
caught fish on it. No. Just terrible. It's
a crap. But I caught fish efficient it.
So to school.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what counts in

(11:03):
the end. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. So...
And then how did you progress from there?
How did You...
Were you self taught all the way? Did
you have a mentor of sorts? Well,
eventually, I started... Okay. I started... Pissing everyone
off in my house because I'd cut up
my mom's,
and I'd I'd cut up a the pill

(11:24):
necklace, and I cut my sister's barbie dolls
here,
and I cut the dog. And I, like
As a terrorist. I was like a flight
tank terrorist. Okay. And and
eventually, my family sat me down and they
said, okay. We've got an ultimatum for you.
If we buy you a proper flight tying
kit and proper I came with materials. Will

(11:45):
you stop harassing everything in the house.
So I said fine. If you can do
that, I'll stop harassing the things in house,
And, yeah. I got a decent flight tying
kit, and along
with this kit, I got a book called
a basic manual of flight tying.
By Pat and Singh.

(12:05):
Are you still there?
Yep. I'm listening. We're listening.
Okay. About parts of her and Fling, and
this book had drawings in it.
And they were extremely... There went great drawings.
But they were extremely clear in terms of
the intention and what you had to do.
Like, a basic bugger something like,

(12:25):
36
steps in it. You know? So it was
very clear and
it was very logical.
And so I taught myself using this book
the basic manual of fly dying.
And it basically progressed from there, you know,
And I'd obviously follow magazines
and
I'd read books, and I'd... Whatever I could

(12:46):
get my hands on. I'd do that.
But
the light bulb or
or my damascus moment if you can call
it that,
happened in the our class 1, where we
were learning about
the Ba movement.
And it's basically... The Ba was a school
of

(13:06):
architecture
in the Netherlands,
and
they were...
Our teacher was teaching us about a guy
named,
which is the guy's name. The guy invented
the skyscraper.
And he had this whole philosophy that form
follows function,
So to basically figure out what you need
something to do and then bold to do

(13:28):
that.
And minute said that I realized, that, you
know, you could do this with flight tying.
That I've been following patterns, but
but that was like tying by numbers in
a way. But you know, just following steps
shown to me. I never really thought about
why I was doing what I was doing,
You know,
And then I started d

(13:50):
it. Asking myself, what does this file need
to do? Does need to float? Does it
need to sync? Does it d 2? What
must it do? You know? And then I
would construct it to do that.
And
and that changed the whole way I tide
flies,
I mean, a lot of people just tie
by numbers. They follow videos. They follow steps.

(14:12):
They follow, but they
they don't. Often have a full understanding of
what they're doing.
Yeah. I mean, I look back at some
of the old tying books.
That I have, which go back many, many,
many years. But many times that was just
the recipe.
You know, there were no instructions. It was,
like, this hook that dub this... And they

(14:34):
showed a picture, and then you had to
figure out what to do with the recipe.
Since but there were no real
instruction. And many cooking recipes are still like
that nowadays where they don't,
particularly tell what, you know, the technique is
at a certain step.
And that's where you picked up, though. Right?
I mean, that's
your instructions

(14:55):
detail, and I'm I'm hoping we get into
that here a little bit. The
the actual wise and where for so to
speak at each step.
I think that's where I think you talked
about it in your book and you call
it, you know, a thinking fly tire. Right?
I think that was a word you used
or if f used?
Gordon, are you there?
I'm big. I'm yeah. I'm here. Okay. You

(15:16):
hear me. Lost you again. Yeah. I lost
you again.
Weird. Are you reconnecting?
You come back in? Are. You just sitting
there?
Every time I'm reconnecting.
Okay. Okay. Just so I know. Because I'm
dropping your... When previous
connection, and then you seem to appear. So
good. Yeah. What I was saying is,
when I was reading the book, you referred

(15:37):
to
the thinking fly tire.
And when you're talking about form follows function
and deciding,
you know, what it's to do, then and
then you design it, How does 1 become
a thinking fly tire? I mean, what tips
can you give people to move away from
that recipe kind of
approach?
Well, the first thing you need to understand

(16:00):
is you need a knowledge, a working knowledge
of the environment you're fishing in.
If you know nothing about trout and the
environment and what they feed on and why
they feed on those things and when they
feed on them.
You're never gonna be able to be an
effective and optimal flight tire. So the first
thing you need to do is become a

(16:21):
student
of nature.
You have to do that.
So that's the first step to being a
good flight type is to understand
your query and understand the thing.
Yeah. And then basically,
understand the environment.
Yeah.
Yep. Yeah. It's...

(16:42):
I think a lot of of people don't...
Yes. Yes.
A lot of people don't
take that approach though. I think they're just
in many cases, you know,
because there's so many flies out there. And
nowadays
wasn't it this way when I started, but,
you know, the videos of how to tie
things, which I think are much better for

(17:03):
people to learn.
But getting out nature and capturing the bugs
and so forth. I know you did that
with the the Dams fly that you talked
about in your book, and I wanna talk
more about that. Particular fly. But
tell us a bit about what what you
observed
before you started tying your skinny dam fly.

(17:24):
Well, okay. So the first thing is, the
first thing I observed, if you look in
the water and you actually look at the
bugs of fish feed on. The first thing
you realize is that a lot of these
bugs
don't move about
as often as you would think they do.
A lot of the time his bugs are
sitting there. As a kid,
when I at their cryo school, for instance,

(17:45):
Dragonfly klein.
Dragon Find them should sit in the river
in the... And burrow in the river bed,
and they would just sit there,
you know? And it's spend a lot of
time
not moving at all. And if you if
you look at a dragonfly finance and you
study it.
You'll realize it's got an Anderson jaw, number

(18:06):
1, it's articulated.
So the way it fee is that literally,
it's an ambush predator.
It waits for things to come within range.
And then like a chameleon, it's that in
with its jaw.
So
most people who fish dragon move them the
whole time,

(18:26):
but
very often dragon are stat they don't move
that much.
So you would then tire a fly and
fish their fly static because that's what the
natural do. If
Mh.
The answers are all around us, you know,
you can read books and books are great.
But books will never be a substitute

(18:48):
for experience.
I mean, Frank Sawyer, let's look at soya.
Right?
So
Soya was fishing
on these talk streams. And
and the way you had to officially talk...
Streets was with dry flies.
And 1 day he's
pheasant... His red pheasant and spinner start sinking
any he's still taking vision. In fact, it's

(19:10):
he's taking more fish on it. And he
thinks himself well.
There's something yeah. And he designs.
If there's internal,
which basically was the mother of all modern.
I mean, if you think about it,
when was when did he tit fit tell
in 19 56,
I think. And it's all these years later,

(19:33):
and we're still fishing them, you know,
and and that was basically just
because of observation. He he realized fish feed.
He realized fish feed,
subsurface
most of the time. So take your flight
to them, and, you know, and that is
the breakthrough.
Right. Right. I think back then when he

(19:54):
was doing that, it was required that you
fish dry flies. Wasn't it something like that.
Some crazy, like...
Nobody was... No. You had tubes. You was
the rules were that you had to fish
a drive.
But...
Yeah. So the rules were there, But then...
Yeah.
Logic sort of challenged the rule. He looked

(20:15):
at them and he went, but this doesn't
make any sense. You know, fish off feeding
subsurface
more than they on the surface. These these
rules don't make sense.
How do you... When you're thinking about a
new pattern?
What's your logic? What's your approach to?
Creating a new pattern.

(20:36):
So I don't care about the patent. I
care about what it's got to do. I'll
give you an example.
So a friend of mine catches sand shocks
on fly.
A sand shark,
some people call them bit fish. It's basically...
Oh, yeah. You united the guitar issues.
Yes. Yes. I. Yep. Say he's catching these

(20:57):
things on a flats.
And he realizes
that because this thing's got a under s
mouth or a mouth
underneath its sort of body.
It hover on top of the fly,
get tastes the fly,
So
what you'd need is you need a fly

(21:18):
that drives with the hook point up.
Because if you don't do that, you'll never
hook the fish.
So what he then did was? He used
bath chain,
tied very much like a cows know, but
was 2
sort of
balls or bar chains on each side, and
that acts as a sort of stabilizer.

(21:38):
So the flight can't tip over because it's
very important that a hook point
rides up because if you don't do that,
the fish isn't gonna get hooked.
The second thing is you need to see
the fly. So you need to... So the
material you're tie with generally will be...
Shot
or white or any visible color. It doesn't

(21:59):
matter, but it's just gotta to be visible.
Because the minute fish one's over the fly,
You don't see the fly anymore, and you
slowly tighten,
and then you feel the pressure and then
you just
strip strike you in. So the whole fly
is tied
to be fished in a certain way and
for that specific species.

(22:21):
So that's how supply design works.
You have these problems
and you try and
figure them how to solve them through time.
Yeah.
Right. Right.
Gordon, we need to take a quick break
here. But when we come back, I'd like
to talk about, you know, the process that
you might go through her testing

(22:41):
design. So hang, Tight, I'll be right back.
Okay.
The ugly bug fly shop in Casper Wyoming
has been serving fly fishers in Wyoming and
around the world since 19 83.
Their selection of top of the line gear
and a huge assortment of flies is 1
of the best in the land. All products
are available in their fly shop and online,
Looking for advice. Just give them a call

(23:03):
and their expert professional staff will help you
with whatever you need. Visit the E Bug
fly shop today at ugly bug fly shop
dot com, or you can call them at
8668459284.
Again, it's the ugly bug fly shop dot
com.
Or call them at 8668459284.

(23:24):
You're listening to ask about fly fishing internet
rating and we're talking with Gordon Van view
about a feather mechanic if you'd like to
ask gordon question. Just go to our homepage,
ask about fly fishing dot com. Use that
q and a text box to send us
your question. With
Okay. Gordon.
So
do you go through but testing process when
you have a new pattern?

(23:46):
Is it kind of a
trial.
So to speak of the pattern and then
adjust from there?
All the time, all the time. So
so you come up with something. You have
a problem
that you need to sort out to and
you to figure out phishing solution to it.
And you tie the fly and you tweak

(24:07):
it.
You fish it and you tweak it the
whole time until it functions in the perfect
perfect way.
The main thing about a fly that it
needs to present optimally.
So if your fly is twisting your tip.
That's a problem
because you're gonna have a electricity tip it.
So then you've got need to go back
to the drawing board and Ask yourself well,

(24:28):
why?
Why is this thing twisting the tip? What's
the problem there?
And
and you basically logically work out what the
problem is and you you adjust or adapt
the fly the whole time. And eventually, you've
got something that works optimally that is a...

(24:48):
Fantastic tool.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think in your description of tying,
the it's skinny dams, you're talking about
making sure that tail is on the top
of the shank.
Otherwise, if it's not perfectly on top, and
that would potentially
twist the fly wouldn't ride right or whatever.

(25:10):
So something as simple as that could be
wrecking, basically the performance of the fly.
Right. Exactly. So there's the flight tying there's
something called the Domino effect.
And and fly tying steps are like stack
up Dominoes.
That get toppled over.
But if you get something wrong,

(25:32):
it affects you
later on It has a compounding effect.
So for instance, the tail of a woody
bugger. If you tie the tail of the
woody bugger on the side of the hooks
shank,
your Wool bugger will never ever move optimum.
It has to be tied on top of
the hook shank.
Okay? To ensure that it's balanced and that

(25:53):
it moves properly.
You can... If you tie the tail
incorrectly or
incorrectly,
It doesn't matter how well you title the
is of the fly.
The fly will fail
as a tool
because the tail isn't working optimally.
So
you've gotta to nail every single step of

(26:15):
the fly and make sure
that everything's working properly, and that's the important
thing.
It's like... When you talk about the domino
effect.
And reading your instructions on time. I noticed
that,
now, you did address that domino effect and
say, hey,
you know, if you don't do it right,

(26:35):
back up, you know, we're take it off
the hook and start over until you get
it right. Because at domino effect and I
know I've done this. I'm guilty of this
is, oh, I think I'll put a couple
more reps on there just to make sure.
Right?
Just to make sure, which really, I didn't
need in which added to the bulk of
the fly,
and that's where if you keep doing that,

(26:56):
you get this
potentially chu little flight
coming off the device. But that's what referring
to as about
Exactly. Look at them. Okay. So is another
thing in flight tying it's very important, and
that's called thread control.
When you are working with thread.
It is doing things while you're working with

(27:16):
it. So most threads
are
twisted in a clockwise
direction.
By working with your thread flat,
you use less thread.
Okay. So you keep the bulk out.
Every time you wrap your thread,
you introduce twist into it. So what you
have to do is,

(27:38):
counter to twist the thread while you're tying
with it
to ensure it keeps on coming in flat.
So the 1 thing about especially dams of
items,
Dams finance are extremely,
but most dan finance you see like, especially
commercially tied versions. Are way too bulky. They're
way too fat.

(27:58):
You know, it dams flight is a delicate.
So a small thing, like, threat control has
a massive impact on
on your fly.
Let's
let's
dig into that dams. That's skinny fly. It's
the first fly in your first book.
That you break down. And,

(28:20):
what I'd like to do is that we
already talked about some of the research you
did of observing
those dams and dragonflies and so forth. Can
you kinda walk us through the steps of
tying this fly
and talk about the importance of each 1
of those... Steps as you go through.

(28:40):
K. So the first thing I do with
this fly.
I start the thread from the back of
the fly.
And I use what Wayne Ellen calls a
reverse jam hitch. K?
And I layer... That's 3 base.
From the back of the shank,
all the way to about
just past the middle of the shank. Okay?

(29:03):
From there,
I will tie in a clump of Mara
for the tail. I'll use a a use
a pin strap.
I'll wet the ends of the mara,
I'll twist them
with the full finger and some of my
right hand,
and then I'll cut them off. And that's
just to make sure that it's easy to
tie in.

(29:24):
I'll tie them in with a pin wrap
on top of the hooks shack.
What I'll then do is Tie in
a length of very thin copper wire
in the exact same spot, but on the
far side of the shank,
and what I'll then do is I will
tie the ribbon and the tail in at
the same time,

(29:45):
moving my thread back towards the back of
the shack.
Now why do I do that? Why am
I tying the the ribbon the tail at
the same time
to minimize street?
Because if I tie the k in, that's
1 layer of thread.
There, 1 layer are coming back, then I
tie the ribbon, that's another layer that then

(30:05):
coming back. Another layer. So just by doing
simple things like that, you minimize bulk.
The next thing I do is I
at the tail, are tied in the
Bulbs for the body, not many.
Normally about 4.
It's very delicate so you gotta work carefully,

(30:27):
and I will use what I call a
rapid trap to to basically rapid and forward
So I'll wrap with my right hand,
trap
the bulbs with the
pad
of my index finger on my left hand.
And then I'll gather the bulbs up again
and wrap. So it's wrap trap wrap trap
wrap trap until I get to more release

(30:49):
about halfway, the length of the whole shank.
And
and then I'll tie them in.
And then I'll rip
using a a cross rib.
Can you still hear me?
Yes. Yes.
Okay. I'll use a cross rib, and our
rib...
Wrapping my ribs,

(31:10):
towards me at a slight angle. So it's
in the opposite direction to the way,
I
I wrap the body of the fly. And
what that does is protect.
Those bolts. They the trout teeth hit them.
They weren't unravel because they trapped by copper
wire. So that's the goal of the copper
wires.
Is to

(31:30):
make the far more durable number 1, but
also to provide a bit of contrast. I'll
typically use shot true copper wire or blue
copper wire or red copper wire or, you
know, something like that. So there's a little
bit of contrast in the flight. And contrast
is quite an important thing I think in
a fire pattern because what it does

(31:51):
is it basically draws,
the fish is attention to the fly. You
know, if you've got contrasting colors
in a pattern.
And that's why a lot of flies nowadays
of hot. It's gotta do with Contrast.
Mh.
And you also... And your book talked about
laying a base of
white thread.

(32:12):
To begin with, and
I'm also.
I'm sorry.
Yeah. Marking it, but also the color Like,
you're were just talking about contrast how what
thread you might put over that white would
show up better.
It's natural color than going for instance, darker.
Or whatever. And I could see that working
with the contrast that you're talking about. Yeah.

(32:34):
Yeah. So you use a life of colored
thread for 2 reasons.
When you wrap materials over a lighter or
colored thread, when they get wet, they remain
true to color.
If the thread was darker, they would come
out darker. K? That's the first reason. The
second reason is you can make markings on
a light thread body.
So you can basically mark where all the

(32:56):
elements of the flight need to meet with
a a little fine line that, you know,
like, a little pin.
You can mark it up. That's something I
learned from cast fly.
You know, we'd do that all the time.
So, yeah, So small things like that. I
mean, if you're backing with proportions.
Lay a thread foundation, mark out where everything
needs to be. You know, like a stupid

(33:18):
thing. Like, beginners typically over overcrowded the eye
of the hook
because they don't plan ahead. And then I
get to the end, and then I've got
all this bulk
thread bulk happening there. But imagine
if a millimeter or 2 behind that hook
eye. You made a mark, and you called
that no man's land, and you see it

(33:39):
to yourself Never allowed passing this.
You know? When I tying the thor x
down or whatever a tile fee, and I
cut them tool,
I'm not allowed passing that mark. If you
did that, you would never ever crowd the
hook car.
Something right.
Yeah. Yeah. When you put it that way,
it's planning it out from the beginning. And

(34:02):
because that... I, yeah. I know that when
I was tying, you know,
early on, and I still do it.
But I'll crowd that eye because I don't
make those marks or don't plan that fly.
And a lot of times it's because you
don't tie that fly a lot. You know,
it's maybe
the first time, But all the more reason
that to make a plan. Right?
But that, you've just actually

(34:24):
highlighted at a very important point. You know,
when you tie a specific fly, it's actually
always prudent to not just taiwan 1, type
12,
you know, sit down for 3, 4 hours,
high 12.
And with every single 1 you tie,
ask yourself what you would do to improve
it, and then incorporate

(34:46):
those
observations in the next 5.
And if you do that, the whole time,
you will
incrementally
improve as you go.
So sale yeah.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, continue on with a
skinny dams. I think you were at the
point of maybe

(35:08):
tying in the
A case. Just
ring case. Right? Wing case with this...
Yeah. The straw. Yep.
Okay. I use swiss straw for the wing
case.
And the reason I like swiss restore. I
mean, a lot of patents don't use swiss
restore anymore, and I don't understand why because
there's great stuff.
What swiss straw does is? When it gets

(35:30):
wet,
it's actually translucent
to see through.
So when you use, like, a a lighter
swiss straw,
and you
you dab a darker body
it actually shines through the wing case, which
is quite a a natural thing, you know?
N are translucent,

(35:50):
especially
when they are
are hatching or on their way to hatch.
You get subcutaneous gases trapped underneath
the n skin,
and
and it gives them this look of trans.
So trans is another trigger
in a patent. In the same way as

(36:11):
contrast is is a trigger,
as well. So I'll use a little bit
of a a Uv dub for the Thor.
So there's shines through this
the swing case.
And then what I'll do is I'll use...
Once I've dubbed the Thor, I'll use
Cdc bulbs in a split thread
application,

(36:31):
and I'll make a sort of a soft
tackle
with those Cdc bulbs.
And what I like about Cdc is it's
highly mobile,
but it's also not heavy
from a visual perspective.
You know, most people like over hack flights
that not make teen hack they're for the
legs. But if you look at the dams

(36:52):
flight n, it's what 6 legs it's very
dainty.
You know? So you lose the whole effect
by going balls to the wall on the
hack.
So
less is more. You don't need much. A
couple of Cdc bulbs in there. Perfect.
And then you basically pull over the

(37:13):
the swiss straw tie it in.
And then I make eyes from melted mono
to... Before you go... I took
Gordon before you move on to the highs.
Can you explain the split thread technique you
use?
K. So the split thread technique basically
is you use a thread

(37:34):
that
nice flat.
Okay?
So
so I'd typically use something like griffith sheer
or or dan flat un wax or, something
like that.
I'll make sure that the thread is totally
flat.
Okay? So it's not twisted up
I'll take a needle,
while I first put the thread over my

(37:56):
finger,
and that'll will basically accent the flat of
the thread, and then I'll take a dub
needle, and I'll just
separate
or split the thread,
And then
I would have already prepared my Cdc.
I'll pop it in may
and trap it between the split in the
thread.

(38:16):
Okay.
And then I'll basically
twist it up.
Basically, like a dub brush, I'll twist it
up.
And and it'll create this bottle brush effect.
And then I'll basically
brush the bob stack and then wrap. You
know? Like you do been new folding hack
on a soft hack

(38:38):
or something like that.
So that's basically it. Now I know it's
hard to follow when I'm speaking about it.
But if you're look in the book,
it's easy to follow because it's visual. You
can see what I'm talking about, You know?
We have a a question come in from
Db b and Bo, Montana. He says, what's
your opinion regarding split d thread versus dub

(39:01):
loop techniques
for placing materials.
Well, I that depends on the fly and
it depends on the material and it depends
on the application.
For instance, if you were making
if you're making a light Cdc
pack, I would just split the third. But
certain materials
are more robust,

(39:22):
and
your dub loop would be better. So I
could say now I was making
a deer hair
collar.
Okay? So I'd I'm making a Deer hair
hack.
So in the same way,
I'd I'll do the same thing except. I'd
use a dub loop. I'd use a loop,
soft loop.
And I then put the Da in the

(39:43):
loop and then I twist that up. Why?
Because it would be stronger than splitting the
thread. Why? Because Da is more robust than
Cdc?
So the technique used
is dependent on the material and the application.
You know, There's not... Any 1 technique that
fits everything.
Right. It's all

(40:04):
contextual. So you basically have to
use the technique that works with the material
we're using.
Yeah. Yeah. I no. That makes total sense.
Yeah. I mean,
deer hair is way more coarse and rough
and different to work with than like Cdc,
which is let you say, very delicate.
So... Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good. So, yeah.

(40:27):
You were going to talk about the eyes
when I interrupt side.
Yeah. So for the eyes, I use the,
mono on finance, and I normally use Max
ultra green.
And I put them in my aqua pliers
and I burned this piece of mono on
either side to create the eyes.

(40:48):
It's important that you hold it at a
45 degree angle,
and
it's important that
your he player is
slap bang in the middle of that little
mono strand, and it's not a long strand.
It's not long at all, maybe
a centimeter.
Maybe.
And
and you basically create a sort of a

(41:08):
mono
bath chain in a sense. K?
And then I'll tie that on with a
finger of 8,
and I'll put a little drop of super
linear there just to secure it.
And then I'll dab around the mono eye.
But normally when you... When people dab around,
like, both chain eyes or something like that.
They figure of 8 day dub reps.

(41:31):
But if you look at a dams or
flying for a dragonfly plan, you'll see the
heads are fairly flat.
So what I'll do with this dams or
is I'll dab around individual eyes.
Only crossing my thread to get to the
the opposite eye.
And then by doing that, you'll create a
very flat head profile. Okay?

(41:51):
And then what I'll do is I'll
my thread will be right down my Okay.
I'll bring over the remaining bidder a swiss
restore.
Pay it down.
Make a half inch
so that the restore doesn't slip,
cut it.
Wood finish
cut off done.

(42:11):
And are you are also...
I believe you're using, like, super glue for
cement or head cement or none at all?
What are you used for the Well, okay.
So this is the thing. So what I
like to do, especially when I'm applying N.
I don't really do this with drive lights,
but with N I like to do the
following.
I take a drop of super glue. I
put it on my thread, and I whip

(42:33):
finish with the super glue on the thread.
Okay? You've gotta work quickly
because if you work slowly this stuff drives
on you,
or you could also use a super supercomputer
that dries slower.
And what you then get is what you
call an imp
would finish.
So it's not just var on the outside
of the head of the fly. It's actually

(42:56):
inside the fibers, the thread fibers.
It gives you a way more durable head.
I'm not gonna people who makes massive red
heads for the sake of making a head
on a fly. You know, back on this
dams or, I don't even create the threat
head.
I just... Right. I just will pretty done.
Yeah. It makes sense to keep it simple
and the keep it light, and

(43:17):
yeah, Not using any more material than you
have to.
Yeah. I mean,
most people, if you look at... If you
look a
a lot of these videos. Most people use
way too much it.
You know, they'll use, like, 15 3 reps
to tie in a
a wing, like an elk wing. Why?
You need, like 4 max. You know? So

(43:39):
the small things make a big difference. My
father landlord law has the saying, you know,
spare match by a phone.
And and, basically, what that means is that
small things
they larger
implications and make a big difference
if you do
those small things all the time or make
those small savings.
And the same thing can be said for

(44:01):
flight time, you know? Yeah.
I've got a bunch of questions that came
in here on the Internet. So I'm gonna
kinda roll through these. They may jump around.
But
Dick and North park, I believe that's North
Illinois
says us, he's just thanking you for writing
the mechanic books. He thinks are great.

(44:21):
Nothing.
Yeah. D and Bo wants to know what's
your background is, schooling, major in college,
was it theater?
So it's theater. So I am a professional
actor,
and that's what I measured in. I... I
was in this cryo school. I've always been
a creative person

(44:41):
I've never been conventional. I've never had a
conventional day job.
I
see. So I major it in theater, and
a lot of the work I did as
an actor and that I do as an
actor is educational. To educational theater,
industrial, theater corporate Theater.
Nowadays, I shoot a lot of commercials,

(45:04):
I've done some work on American Tv, believe
it or not.
American monsters.
Is this.
And you seen it
about your.
Okay.
So on the crime channel,
you get this program called American Monsters,
and

(45:24):
I played 1 of the characters in the
series.
No. I have to look. Think I think
it was season 2F7
or something of American monsters. And then I
was in this other thing,
for the history channel,
there there were these
documentary
shots about the Us presidents.

(45:46):
Theodore Roosevelt,
Lincoln
and they won't issue. So, you know, I've
done a bit of
international work to But ultimately,
I'm a communicator, and I'm a teacher, and
my acting has helped me
to communicate more effectively in terms of teaching
people how to tie.

(46:06):
Yeah. Well, definitely, are very talented in a
number of areas. I haven't heard you saying
yet. But
I am imagine you say rather well.
But
harry's over into your drawing, your flight tom
you're fly fishing, all those kinds of things?
Another question. What resources are available in South
Africa for the fly tire. Do you have

(46:27):
access to?
Buy shops,
you know,
materials, And is that a
issue for you or is it readily available?
It's not an issue for us, but
A lot of our materials get imported from
the Us or from the Uk or from
other parts to the globe. So So
things that are easy for you to get

(46:49):
might be hard for us to get sometimes
I tackle.
But getting good net to tackle can be
problematic.
And we don't have the wide variety you
guys have.
You basically this 1 distributor in that in
South Africa who who brings in hack.
And that's the only distributor who does it.

(47:11):
So in America,
like, our hack stock is the equivalent of
1 fly shop.
Oh, wow. Wow. It's like, if you look
at house of hack, you know Jim's House
of hack, if you look at house of
hack?
Our distributor has probably a tenth of the
He has an that's got cater for the
whole south Africa.

(47:33):
Yeah. Yeah. And I imagine it's probably
more expensive as well
because of the importing and and that kind
of thing. Yeah.
Same thing what Rod?
Yeah.
Same thing with Rods reels line, that kind
of thing.
Are there not
can you good extras?

(47:53):
Look, we do have South African manufacturers.
But what's also
important to note is that building your own
rods
are about the same price as importing or...
As in buying a a shop
bald rod.
And and then you can bold it the
way you want to, you know, You can

(48:14):
Mh. I'll give you an example. I've never
understood
why they're var
rods
for Small stream.
Because rod flash is a definite problem. You
know, I have seen fish
flee
because of the sun hitting the rod and
they're being a flash.
So

(48:35):
like
Scott in the old days, used to have
these
buried, like, whole blanks.
Now if you
If you build your own rods,
you can sand them down or or you
don't need to var the blanks, you know?
And you can custom make it to your
specifications.
You can even paint the blanks. Yeah.

(48:57):
To dull them down. And that would then
change the action slightly. It make slightly softer
because you're adding a little bit more weight
to the blank
So
so South African were very
versatile
people, and we use what we have and
we use it very effectively. And if efficiently.

(49:19):
Yeah. And I think there was a question
about Blue or Cement. You basically answered that
1, I think for
d.
I'll tell you... I I'll also use Sally
Hanson, hard nails?
Okay. I'm not a fan of Uv glue.
Now I know that might sound weird.

(49:39):
But, you know, I once did a very
stupid thing put some uv glue on my
hand, and I put the torch on it
and it burnt me. And after that, I
thought this this stuff dangerous, man.
You know, And it's like
I know everyone loves you glue. And and,
I mean, you've literally see the fumes
when you nuke it with your torch. You
literally see the fumes coming off it black,

(50:02):
I don't know. Hey. Like, call me a
traditional if you must, but like...
I don't wanna you coming off my heads
cement.
I tell you my dentist sure likes using
Uv materials.
Yeah now they're using that to do fillings
and caps and everything nowadays. You know.
Yeah. It's it's pretty incredible. But... Yeah. I

(50:24):
hear you. Yeah. Whatever works. Right?
Db also asked, do you have particular go
to fly tying materials threads
that you like, you know, across the board
for your time. And I think in your
book, you mentioned you like, kind of kept
it to, like, 3 threads or something like
that?
Yeah.
Okay. Look, mostly, I'm mostly tying for small

(50:46):
stream fishing. So
I use Uni
17 north. For really small stuff. Is Griffith
share of 14 o
for my general stuff. And occasionally,
I'll use
Daniels,
6 or,
flat un,
for larger flights if I'm trying to terrestrial,

(51:09):
hopper,
you know, big bigger flies. That's kind of
things. So 3 spool of thread cover me
for what I'm doing. You know.
Right.
And I don't have a massive
selection of materials either. You know, my focus
is more on,
on quality and quantity.
You get people who've got like a a

(51:31):
major room with a 5000 different materials, You
don't need it. I mean, think about the
carefully fee. If you go to your time,
you will find stuff that you haven't used
in 10 years.
Why do you have it? You haven't used
it for 10 years, you know, fly tires
by nature or hoard. We hold. That's.

(51:52):
Yeah.
I do.
Yeah. You're... We are. I I am.
I don't.
I have...
I think I have materials gordon from when
I was in junior high school still.
Staying around yeah.
You see. That's... So that's the whole point.

(52:14):
So
so instead of having...
A hundred packets of of of really bad
Cdc.
I might have 5 packets of great Cdc,
fantastic stuff.
And
quality is the most important thing. Because if
you wanna type quality flies that perform
in an optimal way you need quality material.

(52:35):
You can't skim on that. You have to...
You know,
and don't just follow
what people are saying on Facebook or saying
in magazines or saying,
look at what people
who are
good fishermen. Look at what they are doing
and what they are using.
You know? There's there's a reason. Look at
the... Don't just follow what the ads tell

(52:57):
you about hooks or what
look at what people you admire, good fisherman,
you know, look at what they're using.
You know? And Austin, and there'll be a
reason they're using those brands or those things.
I mean, Hooks. My some of my favorite
looks or cutters, like, hardly anyone... I know
uses Cutters, I don't understand why they fantastic

(53:20):
it.
Yeah. Really good for salt. A lot of
people use them here for salt fishing because
it's sharp... Fish water.
But fresh order no. I mean, they've got
a whole range of fresh order hooks. I
mean, everyone knows the
Salt order hooks. But they've got a whole
range of fresh water hooks that are
fantastic.

(53:40):
Could you speak for a minute about... You
talked in your book about?
Tying smaller flies on larger hooks.
Yeah.
Can you address that for, A minute? Yes.
Yes. Okay. So what's your biggest problem with
a very small fly? Your biggest problem is

(54:01):
a limited hook gap?
You need to hook gate to hook the
fish. Right?
So what you can do is,
people think
when you think of fly side, you think
of the fly fly size is determined by
the size of the gate, so the distance
from the point of the hook to the
shank.
But that's actually wrong

(54:22):
because the fly size
is determined by the length of the shank,
not the gap,
So we all called the size 16 is
the 05:16 because of the gap. But what
is that Size 16
as a very short check.
I mean, it could be the size of
a conventional size 18, but with the gate

(54:43):
of a sixth 60.
So what I would typically do if I
was tying a small fly,
I would tie
tie The small size 20 on a size
18 hook,
but with a very short
shank,
or you could use less of the shank
for you basically

(55:04):
under tire the fly on the shank
to create a smaller fly on a bigger
hook.
It's a functional thing.
Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense.
And you also, I think talked about...
Between manufacturers,
there's...
There can be a significant difference.
And
look look. They you just said the length

(55:25):
of the bank. Yeah.
If you look at hook sizes,
I mean, look... If you look at brands
like
the...
The hooks are fairly big,
So a size 16 though he will actually
be
like a size 14 T.
If... You can't just go on what they're

(55:46):
telling.
Essentially,
the hook you use,
but match the insect your are time. So
don't worry about sizes.
Just look at the hook and say, is
that hook the size,
of the thing I'm done. And if the
answer is yes,
go for it.
Mh.
Yeah. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. So

(56:09):
so what I'm saying don't pay too much
attention to what the packets on the hooks
are telling you.
News common sense.
Mh.
Exactly. Yep. Yeah.
Let me take another quick break here. And
we'll be right back and talk more with
Gordon about fly times. So hang Tight folks.
To be right back.

(56:31):
Discover the power
pure gadget with Olympic peninsula sk tactics.
From delicate soft tackle to hefty steel head
flies,
Ops t's versatile casting system meets the demands
of every an situation. With Edwards unparalleled, Gadget
rod design and casting expertise,
Ob

(56:51):
T offers you a quicker route to mastering
effective casting techniques.
Whether battling wind and rain or targeting steel
head trout or small mouth bass, trust Ops
t's, innovative rods lines, and tips to elevate
your fishing experience.
Join the ranks of skilled english who rely
in
For consistency

(57:11):
proficiency and a superior fly fishing adventure. Unleash
your potential with Ops p t today. Visit
pure gadget dot com, or call limit at
02:06
8588476.
Again, that's pure sk dot com or call
them at 02:06
8588476.

(57:32):
You're listening to ask about fly fishing Internet
radio. We're talking with Gordon Van sp out
the feather mechanic. If you'd like to ask
Gordon a question, just go to our homepage,
go let that form send it in, we'll
try to get it answered. About on the
show tonight
today.
So used tonight, Gordon.
So, I think this might be.

(57:53):
But, we'll probably have be doing more of
these afternoon and working with more Africans and
and Europeans because there's so many good good
people over there doing great stuff that we'd
like to hear about here more often. So
in your book again, you talked about Cdc,
and the differences out there

(58:15):
between
the Cdc that comes out of Spain and
the Cdc that comes out of the Us.
Can you talk to that? And what's your
experience has been with that?
Okay. So
I think you're talking about Cock Leon, Cdl.
In terms of Spain and what comes out
of the Us. Oh, yeah. Studio. I'm sorry.
Yeah. No problem. So in Spain, I call

(58:37):
it Gay leon. Okay?
And, basically, these birds have been bred in
a specific region of Spain, for like, over
500 years.
Tom why I think got a hold of
some birds and started breeding in in the
Us.
But
the Us product is very different,

(58:58):
then the Spanish product for the simple reason
is number 1,
by not
cultivated in Spain.
Number 2, they're breed in a different way.
The Spanish pluck feeder, in the Usa k
and skin them.
Number 3, you've got a smaller
genetic pool to draw from in the state.

(59:21):
So it will affect
the bulb quality.
Now that's it, the white product is great
in terms of its availability
in terms of
versatility, but it is not a path
on the Spanish product.
Now, luckily, Dish don't care because they don't.

(59:42):
So if you're using
cocktail leon on wiping and cock 4 for
tails and fantastic stuff, You know? No problem.
There definitely is a difference.
If you look at the Spanish product. The
Spanish product as better markings
is
S,
is
straight
is

(01:00:03):
is more delicate
is
you actually have to look at those feathers
in your hand see the difference... And and
the different jumps out you. It it just
does.
Interesting. Yeah. Are there other
and and I got that, you know, from
reading your book that we all need to
pay more attention to our materials.

(01:00:25):
Rather than just grabbing a packet of this
or that and trying to tie the fly
with it that we really should be inspecting
it more carefully.
Are there other materials you know, whether it'd
be feathers or synthetic or anything that you
find that we should be paying more attention
to?
That really make sense please.
Definitely,
simple things like,

(01:00:46):
anti fed tel,
the quality of and tail center feathers,
nowadays,
very often is not good, And I'll tell
you why it's not good. It's because they
get these birds out of China, and they
harvest in at too young in age. So
what you tend to find is that the
bulk quality and the ball length

(01:01:07):
is very short
whereas,
if you let the birds become a bit
older,
you get better quality.
And
so typically
fa and tile feathers coming out of the
Uk where people hunt.
Very often will be better than the stuff
you get from China. Simply because the birds

(01:01:29):
are a bit older or whatever the case
might be.
Quality is a major major, major thing. Also
Cdc, you know,
wild birds, I tend to find have better
quality Cbc than in domestic birds.
And and for various reasons,
if you look at the way they are
bread, you know, if you're breeding a duck

(01:01:52):
for the meat market,
Your whole idea is to breed that, animal
as quick as fast as possible
to make a
profit on your investment.
Nature doesn't work like that.
Nature's is not worried about producing a duck
in 3 months.
No. It's because... No. No.

(01:02:12):
Yeah. I know. I put saying. I never
heard Put that way.
So you get a better product. So some
of the best Cdc comes from Wild mall.
You know, or wild ducks
and not domesticated
animals. So most of the the sort of
the Cdc
you're buying shops is from domestic
birds, Back,

(01:02:34):
domestic ducks.
Swiss Cdc,
domestic ducks. They do also have wild Cdc,
you know, amongst their stock, but most of
it is domestic.
Some of the best Cdc, you'll find there's
a guy in check Vodka. His name is
David Jed.
He sells some of the very best wild

(01:02:56):
Mall Cdc.
Steve Cooper, in the Uk from C hill.
Same story.
Self fantastic Cdc.
So
using the best material you can get
is, like the way to go. And what
flight tires need to do is understand the
nature of the materials they are using?

(01:03:18):
Why are these materials is? Effective. You know,
look at different types of Cdc and ask
other question, what are the differences
between it?
You know, for instance, fact, Pd Cdc the
domestic stuff. It's great for sp thread work,
but it's not great for tying flights
because the ra is what some people call
the feather stems are too,

(01:03:40):
you know? Mh. And it creates bulk at
the time points and which is not cool.
So those little smaller, wild mall Ct,
feathers are are way more effective for things
like air airflow for instance,
yeah.
Sounds like you either need to be a
bird hunter or no a bird hunter

(01:04:00):
and make friends.
U. You don't even need it, Roger. You
don't you don't even need to be the
bird hunter. All you need to do is
understand the art catching that.
You got your local
pond.
You bread,
you get them to come close and you
catch that duck.
And you pluck it. I've done it a

(01:04:21):
hundred times. My children helped me that I'm
telling you mel ducks can be found everywhere.
I mean, yeah. Is that they can be
found in back most countries. You got mall
ducks at bird ponds at Parks. You could
probably get mail duck ducks in Central Park.
I promise you. You can get Cdc Central
Park. I'm convinced.

(01:04:42):
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Well, they're all around here
too in Colorado up, and, I mean, they're
all over the... Wherever will you go there's
mall Yeah. Yep. So... Yeah. Good tip.
Now the the question is, how do you
hold a duck while you're pluck it There
must be a technique?
There is a technique technique. So what you
do is,
you fold the wings of the bird

(01:05:03):
towards other other,
and you basically grab both wings at the
same time. Okay?
You put the dog's legs in between your
legs. So can't move, and you just very
carefully and softly,
pluck the feathers out of there.
You don't be rushed very gentle and off
you.

(01:05:25):
When you hold the bird
like that, with... You do the same thing
with... When they're pluck
Ga Leon, cock Leon. They do the exact
same thing. They they put the bird between
the legs.
They... The Spanish actually tie the legs up
of the bird. You don't have to do
that, but they do it. And and then
you just stuck the bit. It's yeah.

(01:05:48):
Okay.
Okay. But, maybe I'll get my grandson to
do that. Sounds like something for him to
do.
He.
I'm not cute.
I'm not kidding my grandson is an x...
He goes to these... The kids go to
these wildlife farms, you know? And he is
an excellent duck catcher.

(01:06:09):
Yeah. Can
I'm gonna call upon him to, give me
some feathers here. So, yeah. So go ahead
and you were gonna say something?
No. And road kill is excellent stuff. I
mean, ready, it never pass of good road
kill. If you see a death squirrel next
the road, load that corpse and make it

(01:06:29):
happen. Let me tell you.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's... Yeah. Again, I read
in your book.
Be careful what you pick up. Right.
Yeah. Depending on how fresh brown kill is
better. Let's put it that way. Right? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The,
we're running down on time here, But

(01:06:52):
what advice would you give
to experienced fly tires looking to their... To
take their skills to the next level.
What I would... What advice I'd give them
is to high things are challenging.
You know, most tires
have genres or patterns that they like time

(01:07:12):
and they're they're good at time.
But then they'll have both flies
that they don't necessarily enjoy tying, but that
pushed them that to develop. Give you an
example,
people are scared of tying,
you know,
classic salmon flies. They're beautiful.
Tying a classic salmon fly, will teach you

(01:07:34):
a lot of our time.
It will reinvent
the way you see time, You know?
Even in terms of normal flight time. It's
a bit like going on an advanced driving
cost. You know, you don't need advanced driving
skills for everyday driving.
But once you've done that course,
your everyday driving does change, you know, the

(01:07:55):
way you see it changes.
So the same thing happens with things like
tying,
traditional wet flies,
that's examined flies
or
or whatever the case might be.
They
broaden your skill set,
and they help you to see things in
a different way and they're broaden in the

(01:08:16):
way you see thing. You know. Yeah. I
mean, Roger, you can sit there your whole
life and thai square means. And
mop flies
and
present and tell them. And and you're catching
our fish in them, and you can do
that. Right?
And and then right. And you you don't
need to tie anything else. You could do
that. It would be fine. But why do

(01:08:37):
you fly fish why do we do the?
It's not a fish. It's about how we
catch fish. That's important to us. You know?
That's why we do it with our fly.
I mean, If it was just about catching
fish, we could get a spinning rod and
just catch a lot of fish doing that.
No problem. Yeah.
Jar power bait and you're all set.

(01:08:58):
Yeah
Yeah. Yeah. I think you told the story
in your book about 1 of your mentors
pushed you.
1 day, you, I think we're tying what...
Correctly me if I'm wrong so it's at,
like, a split wing to fly with split
wings or something and you were struggling.
And
but he had kept telling you, just do
it again, do it again and do it

(01:09:18):
again. And
by the end of the day, you had
run it over and moved forward with your
skills, and I thought that was a... And
that's what you're talking about here is we
need to push ourselves,
we may not have somebody else to push
us, but to to push ourselves as well.
Well, I mean, you, it's just...

(01:09:41):
Experience things, You know, If you've never tried
a flight taiwan,
see see what it does for you. You
know, you don't have to love them. You
don't have to
continue time and but try try it out.
You know? Why not? You know.
Experience it. If you might learn something, and
you actually definitely will learn something I can
guarantee you.
A lot of people look at traditional methods,

(01:10:04):
and they sort of,
you know, they think they irrelevant, but they're
not irrelevant.
You know, history teaches us a lot, you
know, looking at the past features us a
look. Life is cyclic.
This is all moving in circles for the
whole time. Yeah.
By we'll learn a lot about the future
by looking at the past, and fly tying

(01:10:26):
is exactly the same, You know, there's lots
of things that traditional patents teachers, for instance,
time blobs.
Now a blob. I don't like a blob,
but the method you use the tire blob
is exactly the same as folding Hack.
On a soft echo,
you know, where you fold the heck echo,

(01:10:47):
and then then in your app. The same
technique you've using lu.
You know? So that old technique of soft
apples boom helps you to dive a blob.
I mean, he would have... Right. But... Yeah.
And that's the way that those old methods
are transferable.
You you won't believe it, but they open
your eyes to things. You know? Nowadays everyone

(01:11:08):
just wants to do everything quick easy yet
and fast. You know, With a Mcdonald's
generation.
If we struggle with something, we don't wanna
do it. It's too hard.
You know? Right. Right.
But I think that... We we're short changing
ourselves. We're robbing ourselves
of experiencing something really beautiful, you know?

(01:11:30):
And challenging ourselves. It's nothing wrong with being
challenged.
There's nothing wrong with failing, you know,
my son's chest teacher says,
you don't lose you learned.
Use every single failure of yours as an
opportunity to develop or learn,
then it's a positive thing. You know, when
when people look at failure, I think of

(01:11:51):
it as a negative thing. Failure doesn't have
to be negative.
If you use it in a positive way.
Right. Yeah fail forward
is
a term I use. I'm always failing forward.
Moving forward with what she learned. Yeah. Very
good.
To finish up here, Gordon, I'd like to...

(01:12:11):
Because I I didn't do this earlier
for people to
understand how to get a ahold of you
and follow you and so forth going forward.
I know we've got,
We've got your first book on the website
on our homepage where people can order the
book there. Your second book is being reprinted
as you've told me, and will avail be

(01:12:33):
available sometime in the future. We don't know.
Are some copies. There are some copies available
from Fly Life, Canada.
Flight Canada has copies of the second book.
The first book there's still a there's still
a couple of them available. The Rogue Anglo,
in Oregon has them,

(01:12:53):
various flash shops in the in the Us
have them. Right.
So if you need books in the state
or the second book,
the freedom of Mechanic 2, those you you
have to get a Canada from fly, life,
Canada from a guy named Gary Hank.
I think he's got 50 copies left. He's
got 50 copies left. That's what he's got.

(01:13:14):
Okay.
Okay. So
say,
Now,
d b and Bo also asked, do you
have videos
that, you know, maybe work with your books
or or independent of your books?
My thank. If you... So all you have
to do is Google the feather mechanic,
and then tick on videos and all the

(01:13:35):
videos. I've ever done or on there. And
you can find video c,
on Instagram, I'm always posting things the fed
mechanics
So just look under the fed mechanic. On
Facebook is a group called the fed mechanics.
Say, yeah. And you'll call me there.
Okay. And do you have a website

(01:13:57):
where people can follow. I do have a
website WWW
the fe mechanic dot com.
And... Easy need to remember.
You know. So I've got videos on the...
I've got videos on there as well,
and,
it's easy to find.
Yeah Good alright.
Alright. Well, stick with me for a few

(01:14:19):
more minutes because we're gonna we're gonna give
away a copy of your book. Rather mechanic,
the first book,
and we're also gonna be giving away when
your membership to Fly fisheries International, and I
won your membership to Try unlimited. So,
hang tight will be doing that in just
a minute and finish up the show.
The bone fish and tarp trust works very

(01:14:41):
hard to safeguard the future of our beloved
flats fisheries from protecting spawning sites threatened by
unsustainable fishing pressure. To securing historic funding to
restore Florida's Ever glad and est.
Thanks to their members. They've expanded their conservation
to the Bahamas, belize and Mexico.
There's still much more work to be done

(01:15:01):
and they need your help. With your support,
they can ensure that the flats fisheries is
healthy and sustainable now and in the 4
generations to come. Visit BTT dot org, and
become a member of the bone and tarp
trust today. Healthy Again, that's BTT
dot org.
Just a quick reminder to everyone before you
leave the website today, please take a minute

(01:15:21):
and give us your feedback about the show.
You can find a link on our page
in the section under tonight's show. It says,
what do you think of this show. Just
click on that link and leave your comments
would really appreciate it. So now it's time
to give away a few prizes here. If
you are,
selected from this shows registration database. It'll be
a winner, but if you didn't register

(01:15:41):
for today's show, it's too late now. You'll
have to wait till the next show and
try again then. But if you are 1
of the lucky winners, we'll contact you after
the show and collect the information so that
we can deliver your prize to you. So
the first thing we'll be giving away is
a 1 year membership. Fly is international, to
learn more about F 5, go to Fly
fishers
international dot org.

(01:16:03):
And to Our winner for that is
Don bishop. Don. I know you're listening.
You may already have a membership, but we
could talk about that later, but you are
the winner of the Fly fisher
international.
Membership. And if you're not familiar with them,
go to fly
international dot org. Life

(01:16:24):
international dot org and check them out. Our
next price we're gonna give away is 1
year your membership to trout unlimited
and our
Let's see here. Our winner for that is
Stan to comm in Illinois. Stan to call
in Illinois. So congratulations Don Stand on not
winning those.

(01:16:44):
Memberships, and I, I know you're going to
enjoy them. Now we're gonna give away a
copy of Gordon book, feather mechanic. I know
after today's show. There's a lot of people
wanna win this books. So
I need to clear my queue. And what
you wanna do is I'm gonna ask a
question, the answer in that form on our
page.

(01:17:05):
I just have to... Go and I did...
1 of our listeners this routed. He says
So does that mean you have a bunch
of naked ducks running around? We have wood
ducks in the park up here.
They'll go all out with the flock, I
guess.
Okay. Gordon you still with us?
Yeah, we may have lost Gordon.

(01:17:26):
Okay.
You may come back on here.
Is the domino
affect
1 of the...
Preferred practices?
Or is it not a preferred practice
as Gordon had talked about it. K. Domino
effect. Preferred or not preferred practice for tying
flies.

(01:17:47):
Alright. Let's see what we get here. And
Okay. But let's see. We're starting to get
some... Okay.
T?
Preferred.
The domino effect. No. Trey wrong.
No. The domino effect.
It's not a preferred method of tying.

(01:18:11):
Oh, you okay. So craig now, it's not...
Yeah. Yeah. A 50 50 chance. Right?
Yeah.
Tried the, or for all of you, the
domino effect was when you keep. Doing stuff
on your tying and compounding the errors, which
creates a domino effect, Putting a couple more
turns on, putting more glue on. 2 more

(01:18:33):
wraps of echo when you only needed, you
know, 3 out of 5 or whatever. So
it's not a preferred way to go the
domino effect. Right. Craig. 1 time listener.
You're gonna get that book from... Are, are
you
gordon back?
I'm back. I'm back. Back. Okay. Okay. Well,
we just gave away your book to T

(01:18:53):
Owing and
in Idaho, I think T is. Let's see.
T... You're in Idaho.
Moscow Idaho.
Okay? So, I will, craig send me your
mailing address,
and so we can get that booked... Shipped
out to you, Gordon book the feather mechanics.
The question I asked, Gordon, just for your

(01:19:14):
info was was the domino effect if preferred
or not preferred method of tying flies.
And
so they took a couple tries to get
it It was a 50 50 shot, but
the We did get the right answer anyway.
So I'm not preferred a way of time
lines.
Anyway,
hey.
Gordon, thank you so much for staying up

(01:19:35):
late there and being on my show. I
really appreciate it Was so fascinating to talk
to you. And I hope we can do
it again sometime. Oh, 1 more thing, Gordon,
you said you're coming out with another book,
Is that something you are willing to talk
about?
Or is that
still.
Nah. Well, III started writing it on halfway
through.

(01:19:59):
It's the third book,
and
there was this Russian
actor
named Stan,
and he wrote a book about acting,
but he wrote 3 books
and all the 3 books work together. So
the last book is more about fishing than
it is about flight tying,
but it it's all about application. You know

(01:20:21):
And and thinking of fishing in a logical
way as well. You know, very often we
just do the same things over and over
again because that's the way we've done it.
But but how about
the thinking
about what we're doing and changing things and
trying other things out,

(01:20:42):
and then for for instance back in South
Africa, it's or water fishing. People are always...
And and Don't if this is like a
international thing. But people are always moving their,
But Mh. Attic n
in store waters is a very effective way
of catching fish,
Yep. Yep. Just like you were talking about

(01:21:03):
with the dams. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I
write about my experiences.
Like, figuring things out in terms of the
fishing. I'm not the best fisherman on earth.
I'm definitely not.
But
I like to think of myself as a
thinking angle and a thinking tire. You know,
Right. Right.

(01:21:24):
Yeah. Then that lost books about that.
Perfect. Perfect. Well, we'll look forward to to
seeing that when you get that done, and
looking at all your incredible drawings again, which
I love to look at. So
so, again, thanks so much for being on,
and
hopefully, we can talk again soon.

(01:21:44):
Roger. Thanks for having me I really appreciate
it.
Thank you, sir.
Our next broadcast will be on July seventeenth
7PM Mountain time 9PM Eastern time on that
show or an interview, Devin Olsen.
Devon is well known for his innovative river
and stream techniques
and reveals his still water competition and locks

(01:22:05):
stops,
unlock style strategies
from his travels around the world. So
discover how to elevate your fishing game with
these proven cockpit... Mission inspired tactics
that you can apply to your local still
waters.
Don't miss this chance to learn from 1
of the best and transform your phishing effectiveness,
And
if you want to, be sure to add

(01:22:27):
this upcoming show to your calendar,
click the add the calendar below Devin picture
on our homepage and add it to your
calendar all set. I do realize on that
home homepage, it's saying 02:00.
For that show, upcoming, but, the calendar correct,
and we'll get that other notice
corrected.
I'd like to find fly fisher International, Chat

(01:22:47):
unlimited, but the Bone and Tarp and Trust,
Olympic Peninsula sk tactics, Ugly bug Ph shop
and Police see flies
or sponsoring our show tonight. Don't forget to
visit our website and ask about fly fishing
dot com and make sure you're signed up
to receive our announcements
So you don't miss out on any of
our future broadcast. Thanks for listening. That's gonna
apply fishing internet radiant, and hope you enjoy

(01:23:09):
to show.
Good day everyone.