April 9, 2025 • 35 mins
Jessica Guerrieri is a writer and novelist who lives in Northern California with her husband and three daughters. With a background in special education, Jessica left the field to pursue a career in writing and raise her children. With over a decade of sobriety, she is a fierce advocate for addiction recovery. She discusses her recovery and her award-winning debut book club fiction novel Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. Jessica’s book, other works, and contact information can be accessed at https://www.jessicaguerrieri.net/.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
It never ceases to amaze me how muchcreativity and truth come in recovery.
I'm privileged to be able to have oneof those conversations today with an
(00:32):
extremely gifted and passionate woman,Jessica Guerreri is a writer and
novelist who lives in Northern Californiawith her husband and three daughters.
With a background in special education,Jessica left the field to pursue a
career in writing and raise her children.
With over a decade of sobriety, she is afierce advocate for addiction recovery and
her award winning debut book Club fictionnovel Between the Devil and the Deep
(00:57):
Blue Sea is available for order today.
And Jessica we'll put links on theblurb of the podcast so people can go
and order it today after they hear.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Pre order it because it comes outMay 13th, but pre ordering is so
important, especially for debut.
So it'll be bookstoreseverywhere, May 13th.
That's gotta be exciting.
Do you have a whole bunchof signings and appearances?
(01:20):
(chuckle) Honestly, it's like, I just feellike I'm floating above my body most of
the time, which as somebody in recovery,it's amazing to be floating above my
body in such a wonderful sense of theworld, it's so different than before.
But I just look, I can't believe it.
I, yes, I have appearances.
I get to go, across the country.
(01:41):
It's no joke.
It's so thrilling.
We'll get to your book in a minute,but when I do these, I always like to
start with the, for me, the good stuff.
You're recovering for over a decade now.
Yup, I am.
Alcohol, right?
Yes.
I'm recovering from alcohol.
So in May I'll have 12years of continued sobriety.
(02:04):
And then I also identifyas an addict as well.
And so I have a separate clean date.
Which is in August of 2021, andI just separate those two out for
reasons that I'm sure we'll get into.
(laugh)
Well, let's do that, becausenot everybody, you know this,
not everybody does that.
I kind of like that, but whydid you decide to do that?
(02:28):
So, obviously I got sober through arecovery program, through a 12 step
program, and I'm very vocal about that.
Inside the program, we talk aboutother forms of alcohol, right?
And so, to me, I was hanging on to thatlast little bit of, like, not ready to be
fully succumb and powerless to everything.
(02:50):
And when the pandemic rolledaround, to me, it was like
Well, it's the end of the world.
And I'm sober and I had sixyears of sobriety at that point.
And I was like, okay, I have enoughrecovery under my belt and all of
our meetings went virtual whichwasn't great for me, I love in
person I'm a people centered person.
And so I use that as an excuse tokind of back away from the program
(03:11):
and start to explore other sort ofquitlet fiction and things like that.
And inside of that space they aremore forgiving to the idea that like,
you can identify separately and have,some people do, they don't drink
alcohol, but maybe they do marijuana.
And, that's everyone's journey.
(03:31):
My experience was that I can'tdo anything halfway, I can't put
any substance inside of my bodywithout completely overdoing it.
And I needed to learn that lessonthe hard way, as most addicts do.
And so that's what I did during thepandemic, which is actually how my novel
came to be, because I was able to writefrom a place of active addiction, not
(03:53):
necessarily with alcohol, because that'swhat my main character's issue is.
But addiction is addiction.
And so as you've read the novel,the feelings of being trapped
inside that are visceral and real.
And you can read that in the book.
I'm shaking my head because you'reabout the millionth woman to talk
(04:16):
to me about pandemic isolation.
And so, boy, that did anumber on us, didn't it?
I mean, honestly, I think, Imean, everybody had their horrible
experience, of course, but I wasat home and my husband worked.
He was an essential worker.
So he was out of the home.
I was at home with a five year old who hadhalfway through kindergarten and pulled
(04:39):
out of kindergarten and a four year oldwho was in preschool and an 18 month old.
And it was actually my hell tobe trapped at home in that way.
Because like I said, I need people.
I have a community.
I'm part of a mom's workout groupcalled Fit for Mom with Lynn Davis.
And we do, motherhood and mentalhealth where we're exercising.
(05:01):
I do Spartans.
I love community.
And so to just be isolated with them,it brought out the, like the darkest,
ugliest versions of motherhood in me.
And I learned that I wasn't alone in that.
That was so common.
And I wanted to show that, like, I wasn'tafraid to show the ugliness of that.
(05:21):
Because I think there's so much shamethat's attached with that where it was
just like, it's not okay to say thesethings about and not be grateful for
our children every moment of every day.
And I was like, but this is horrible.
(laugh) Like, this is terrible to be,you know, there's milestones of my third
daughter that nobody ever witnessed,right, besides us as her family, right?
(05:43):
And that's like, part of that iswe live near family and we didn't
get to share that with them.
Like her first steps and words andthings that we'll just never get back.
And that's tragic.
I've had a lot of people, not a lot,but I've had a bunch of different
folks try to tell me and convince methat edibles are okay in recovery.
(06:03):
And that's where we're going.
That, you know, those, thatblurring of the line, that's a
dangerous little tight rope to walk.
Sure.
So here's my, here's my rigorous honesty,because I'm very upfront about it.
My drug of choice was edibles.
I abused THC and that in the cornersof my brain, I was like, had I had
(06:26):
access to other things, granted,I also got access to painkillers,
so I was mixing those as well, andthat was like, very telling, too.
But I live in California, andit's, we do drive through cannabis.
And I told myself that this istotally fine and of course, like,
my addiction brain is screamingat me, like, this is not fine, you
(06:46):
know this isn't fine, I had friendstelling me this isn't going to work.
And I just absolutely took it too far.
As I do.
Of course, as I do.
And so that, to me, I think is veryimportant, because I also wanted
to message people saying that, youknow what, you actually can overdo
(07:08):
it with things like THC, becausethat messaging is very confusing.
That it's natural and it's all the things.
If it's a substance, You can abuse it.
You had something very similarhappen to you that happened
to my mom way back in the day.
You had a physician that you went to,and my mom, despite the fact she was in
(07:28):
his office from overdosing on alcohol,he wrote her prescription for Valium.
Right.
Oh, same.
I mean, I literally, on my my Kaiser.
You know, diagnostic of everything.
First of all, I was very upset becausethey don't say, in recovery, they
say like, substance abuse disorder.
(07:49):
And I'm like, well, hey, like, I'min recovery, yes, I do have this.
But I also think you guys shouldhave a box that says, checking that
you are working a program becausethey say the same questions of how
many alcoholic drinks do you have.
But I end up going to my doctor and Itold them, after I came out as being
an addict as well, I said, In my chart,please write, Do not prescribe this
(08:12):
woman anything, no matter what she says.
Oh, good for you.
Good for you.
Well, how did they react to that?
I can't, I cannot.
And I don't want to be tempted by it.
Like, I need that honesty so badlyand that's the thing that keeps me
clean and sober, is like, I need to beheld accountable because if you let a
little bit of a messaging come in, itjust sneaks in, and it'll find a way.
(08:36):
Yeah, oh, that, that is great.
I can just see the doubletake from that person.
Of course, I like, I neededit for, I had to do an MRI.
And I'm claustrophobic, and so I talkedwith my doctor, I talked with my sponsor,
and I said I, I have to do this MRI wehave a history of breast cancer in my
family, and so we're rigorous in ourtesting for everything, and I said I
cannot get in this tube without something.
(09:00):
And they said, okay, but it sayson your chart (laugh), I know!
I was like, do you wantme to call my sponsor too?
We can all get on the phone.
But you know, it was justlike, I have to tell on myself.
I always tell him myself.
That's the kind of honesty you need.
I'm going to ask you onemore question about yourself.
Cause it cracked me up.
Talk about the first time you went toan AA meeting sitting in the parking
(09:22):
lot, that just, that was so good.
You know.
Okay.
So and it's also like, just karma.
'cause I have three daughters, right?
And so, like, I was a tomboy as a kid.
Like I love sports.
I'm 6' 1", so I'm an athlete.
But I also love all things girly.
And so my, like youngestis my, like my girly girl.
And so, it's so interesting to me thatin my head at the time, as sick as I
(09:48):
was, I had literally, I'd fallen off, Iwas painting my house while intoxicated
during spring break when I was a teacher.
And I got drunk and decided topaint my living room, as you do.
And I ended up falling off a chairand I tore my knee in three places.
And so, I was on painkillers.
(10:08):
I was, on into anxiety medication, andthen I was drinking, two to three bottles
of wine a night at the same time, so like,on my, like, death's door, essentially,
and then I have this enormous knee brace.
And I'm literally, and I wear, like, a,I specifically chose, like, a long skirt
to cover my knee brace, even though,like, I'm hobbling on crutches, and I'm,
like, sitting there in the back alley,because like, some of these meetings,
(10:31):
places are not exactly the most, you know.
And I'm putting on, like, bright redlipstick, like, because the image
of myself and what I presented tothe public was so important to me to
show that I still had it together.
Literally I was broken, like, fallingapart at the seams, but look, I
(10:54):
still look, I mean, I, my facewas puffy, I looked like a shadow
of myself, and yet I still was soconcerned with the image of it.
Walking into a room with otherrecovering alcoholics, I needed
to be the most functioning.
I needed to be the hottestalcoholic that was in that...
With a knee brace.
(11:15):
(laugh)
With a knee brace.
With, yeah, with a drinking,it's like, come on, but to
me that I can laugh at that.
Now, of course, I can laughwith you about that now, because
that is the epitome of it.
That is what we are in my head,especially as a woman and how we're
supposed to present in a certain way.
To me, like, that just says it all.
(11:36):
The reason I liked it is I thinkthat that is pretty typical of that
facade that people try to maintain.
Let's talk about your book for aminute because there's a contrast in
your book and your other writings.
When you got pregnant you celebratedyour pregnancy, am I getting this right?
On the same day you got your 30 day chip?
I did, I took the pregnancy insideof an AA, well I had already taken a
(12:00):
pregnancy test and it was positive,but as a true alcoholic, I like, I
don't believe it until something'slike, smacking me in the face.
So I had like 15 pregnancy tests, soone of my tests I actually took in
the bathroom of my 30 day AA meetingwhere I received my 30 day chip.
My husband and I had been "trying"(finger quotes) to get pregnant
(12:21):
with, children for over a year.
And by trying, I mean, youheard what I was doing.
I was abusing drugs and alcohol.
And it was like the ultimateGod shot for me of, okay, well,
here, it happened.
And for me, I'm very specific inthis instance that I don't hang my
(12:44):
recovery on my children's shoulders.
It's not their burden to carry.
And I would never say like,I got sober for my children.
It's actually like, to me, the mostamazing thing that they helped me
stay sober than I think I was going tobecause I got pregnant and I had that
(13:06):
protective barrier, like, I say built inprotective barrier of another thing that
was like, okay, I really can't drink.
But like I said, I had to tell on myself.
Because I ended up calling my entirefamily, all my friends even before I got
pregnant, so in my first, like, two weeks,I told everybody, I'm an alcoholic, I
(13:27):
can't drink anymore, hold me accountable,make sure you know and so, I needed that.
I needed that because had I notgotten pregnant with my daughter,
and I can say this in full honesty,I absolutely would have started
drinking the moment she was born.
And I would have backpedaled andsaid like, nope, it wasn't a problem.
Nope, it was fine.
(13:49):
And to be honest, my daughter wouldn'thave survived that in the sense
that I wouldn't be able to mother,safely the way that I was drinking.
I was passing out, not able to come to.
I couldn't take care of a newbornat the same time doing that.
Compare your personal experiencewith that to the choice that you gave
the main character in your novel.
(14:11):
Leah, the main character, the narrator,she celebrates her pregnancy by?
So this was very important to me.
So Leah, she has three children as well.
You'll see some similarities in there.
She's also very tall.
(laugh) You know, there's somethings that we have in common.
(14:32):
Her first two pregnancies, she doesn'tdrink and isn't tempted to drink.
And I wanted to show sort ofhow it can slip in there and
go sort of under the radar.
And this was very important to me tobe to show because it's very authentic
to the experience, at least of myexperience and what I've heard in the
rooms and other people's experiencein recovery by the third baby.
(14:56):
And this was true formy pregnancy as well.
Yeah, I had no interest in drinking, likeit did sound gross, like coffee sounded
gross, things that we weren't supposedto have, like sushi sounded gross.
So that was like a nice reprieve,right, from my mental obsession.
But I will say, by the third baby, andthe reason that I put this out there
that Leah actually does drink in herthird pregnancy she has like a bender.
(15:23):
I wanted to show this because, It isvery... I wanted to take this, shame
away from this idea of, the choiceof it, given that women, if you're
struggling with addiction, or even ifyou're not, and this whole narrative
surrounding shaming women around drinkingwith pregnancy or not drinking and Oh,
(15:47):
it's, even if I'm at a event and I'mnot drinking and people don't know,
they're like, Oh, are you pregnant?
And it's just like, why isthis all associated with this?
To me, it was really important toshow that and to take the shame
away from it because for her, itwas like a foregone conclusion.
She had, she was already doing thesethings and didn't want to be doing them.
(16:08):
It's not that she didn'tlove her children.
It's not that she didn'twant to be pregnant.
It is a force greater than yourself.
And for me that wasreally important to show.
And I recognized that in myself becauseby the time I had my third and I was
nursing her, I ended up nursing her longerthan I did with my other ones because it
(16:30):
was another protective barrier, right?
It was another way of like, beinglike, no, I, I can't, I can't drink.
And so actually when I got done nursingand done having children I did the steps
again with my sponsor because I was like,I feel like a newbie because I'm coming
in this, a completely different placewith, number one, all these children now,
and I don't have a protective barrier.
(16:52):
And so for me, it was reallyimportant to put that in the
novel in that capacity as well.
You mentioned Leah's struggles andyou communicate that so well in the
novel and your literary agent saidthat you write pain so beautifully.
That's a great way to put it.
And I'm not a literary agent.
However she's right, man.
(17:12):
You can feel it in the novel.
As a non novel writer, when you'rewriting that, do you feel the pain?
Like when you're writingthe pain, do you feel it?
Are you reliving part of it?
How much is autobiographical?
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I just listened to the Audible version,so our narrator Mia Hutchinson Shaw does
(17:36):
an incredible version, like her acting in,she is Leah, I actually got to pick from a
cast of people and they had them read andI listened to the first chapter of my book
from all of these incredible voice actors.
And then when I heard hervoice and I heard her do it
I was like Leah, is that you?
(17:57):
(laugh)
Wow, that's great.
Talk about out of body viscerallyfeeling it inside my body.
So I spent all weekend doinglaundry with my earbuds in.
And so, I actually, to experience my bookthat way and then hear my own pain and
my own reliving of that it took a toll,like, it feels like a gut punch and I came
(18:26):
away from it being like, wow, you know,this is gonna be too much for some people.
This'll be like, too heavy forsome people, but I like came in
crying to my husband because he wasworking in his office and I was just
like, I'm so dang proud of this.
So amazed that I'm still here.
(18:48):
Because this pain is so, it was soreal at the time I don't feel it
anymore, but it is the nostalgic achethat I talk a lot about in the book.
Glennon Doyle talks a lot about this like,ache as it associates with motherhood and
addiction and longing, and I really liketapped into that idea, because that's what
it is, it's this like, all the ways acheis one of the quotes that I have in there,
(19:12):
and it's true about motherhood in general.
It's just hard no matter what.
It's hard if you're in recovery.
It's hard if you're an addiction.
It's hard if you're not.
It's it's just hard.
And by the way, if you're listeningto this or watching it on the YouTube
channel, there's no spoilers here I'mnot gonna give away the end of the book.
But there's themes in the book andit's not just Leah's pain, ah, but
(19:38):
the pain of family is so relatable andI found myself just going, yep, yep.
Secrets, Jessica, family secretsjust are so, so dysfunctional.
And everyone has them.
Yes!
Right!
So for me, one of the themes isthere's the mother in law trope, right?
(20:01):
That I use of everybody's heard theversion of the, like, the terrible
mother in law and this idea.
And to me I wanted to play off of theidea that the main character was going
to pick a villain that was not herself.
She wasn't the villain of her story.
And so, I've gotten a lot of feedbackpositive feedback as it relates to this
(20:26):
unique idea where I take the villain ina different direction because it's not
the, like, typical evil mother in law.
And that was really important to mebecause I married into a very established
family and I had the most wonderfulmother in law in the entire world.
She unfortunately passed awaytragically, unexpectedly during COVID.
(20:48):
And I actually wrote this as a loveletter to her, which her family now
reads it and everybody reads it andknows like she was never that person,
but I villainized her and other peoplein my life because they were the problem.
I wasn't the problem.
(21:08):
And so ultimately for me, the loveletter that I wrote to her is the
relationship between Amy, who is thesister in law and the mother in law
characters and they're able to cometogether and find an understanding.
And so that's where it's,it's this tie in, but yeah,
it's the family secrets to me.
(21:29):
Those are my favorite books toread in the whole world, like
complicated family dynamics.
If that's in there, sign me upbecause everybody relates to it.
I come from a big family.
I married into a big family.
There's just something so fascinatingabout the ins and outs of it all.
And silly at the same time, because
(21:50):
what we do.
Totally.
You mentioned how shevillainizes Christine, right?
Or the mother in law.
Well, she also does that self focus.
There's a scene in there, this isno spoilers again, where Lucas and
his brother, that's her husband,is building the restaurant, and
she makes a comment that he can seeeverything in the restaurant before
(22:13):
he even pounds the first nail.
How come he can't seewhat his wife is becoming?
Everything is about her.
When you're in the middle of thataddiction, right, it's so you.
Right.
And yes, it's so egocentric, right?
You can't, I mean, it goes back tolike me putting on lipstick before.
(22:33):
Yes, right.
It's exactly that, where it's like,you cannot see what's truly going on.
And so one of the things thatis so interesting, and it's the
difference between when I see thatpeople either understand my book
and are very much afflicted or havesomeone they know about addiction.
(22:54):
Some people will come back andsay Leah is very unlikable.
And I don't understand howshe could be so selfish.
And I'm like, wow, you must not haveanyone, anyone in your family who
is an addict or an alcoholic becausethat's the nature of the disease.
But the thing it isn't the person becauseyou're talking with me right now and
(23:14):
this person that I am right now is notthe person that I was 12 years ago.
I mean, yes, we are talking all about me,(laugh) and that's like, my ego loves it.
I'm like, yay, let's talk about me.
But I'm not focused on the thing thatwas all consuming, which was how do I get
access to drinking and drugs by any meansnecessary, by hurting anyone necessary.
(23:38):
Instead, my focus nowis like, How do I help?
How do I get this message out tomore people and how do I offer a
sense of hope because I'm livingproof that recovery is possible.
And I want to be that.
And so, yeah, yes, Leah is anincredibly selfish, self centered,
(23:59):
but at the heart of it is from heraddiction and that is what I want.
I wanted to show that viscerallyand make it very clear that is t
isn't her at the core of who she is.
She suffered.
And at the same time, youcan't help but feel for Lucas.
Right.
What a weird place to be like,no matter which way he leans,
(24:23):
he's going to take crap.
And if he tries to ride themiddle, well, that never worked.
Right?
Right.
So what's a spouse to do?
I love that you brought that up becausemy favorite reactions have actually
been like husband and male reactions.
A lot of my best friends have read mybook and then their husbands go on to read
it and like one husband like wrote likea book report on it and sent it to me.
(24:47):
(laugh)
Did you correct it?
You're an old teacher
No, it was like introspective bookreport like how this will help men
and husbands and I'm like, amazing.
But I feel like it is such a hard placeto be as a partner on the other side.
It was hard for my husband to readthis, obviously a lot of the arguments
(25:10):
were like verbatim arguments thatwe've had, we had during my addiction,
but it's you it's a lose lose.
You can't win, right?
My husband never presentedme with an ultimatum.
He never said, you needto stop drinking or else.
But what he did say to me that willforever have changed the course of
(25:32):
how my sobriety ultimately went was Idon't feel safe having kids with you,
And to me, like, there, it was nogreater way that he could hurt me,
and it wasn't him, he was sayingthis monster is making it so I can't.
(25:54):
And of course my inside addiction,your resentment is like, oh, how
dare you, and it's your fault,and it's your mother's fault, and
it's everyone else's fault, right?
And so, I had to hear that and Ilearned through that, like, and I
actually told myself, I was like,Oh, well then I just won't be a
mother because I want to drink more.
(26:17):
And then that was actually the firststatement that I made to myself
that scared me more than anythingand said, I think something's wrong
because I wanted to be a mother.
Well, right.
And don't you think that's the place wherepeople look and say, well, if this Diet
Pepsi is more important to me than myrelationships that's kind of messed up.
(26:41):
That is such a hard pill to swallow.
Yeah,
it is.
But it's such a hard pill to swallowbecause it's like, we as a society,
we want more of everything, right?
And we're so fed that way.
And so to come at it from a placeof like, oh no, you can't do this
anymore, and you can't safely.
(27:02):
A place of no, like you trulyhave to change and your mortality
is looking at you in the face.
That is hard.
It is really, really hard to come to that.
And to go back to your point aboutthe partner and the spouse is that.
No one else is going to do it for you.
Like, if my husband could do recoveryfor me and save my life, he would.
(27:24):
He absolutely would.
And it's not about love, right?
It's not about how much you love someone.
You can't love someone into recovery.
My children don't keep me sober.
I make a conscious choice to stay sober.
So that's the thing.
And I think that's the hardestpart where people are coming to.
They have to get there on theirown and what does it take?
(27:45):
And it, and it takes whatit takes for every person.
I love how you talk about beinghonest and forthcoming because
it keeps you on the right path.
You also wrote an article that Iliked how Dax Shepard's relapse, the
actor, podcaster, how Dax Shepard'srelapse is saving my sobriety.
How did his disclosure of him fallingoff for a little while help you?
(28:10):
So when I listened to his causeI love armchair anonymous and
armchair expert and all of that.
And when I listened to his relapseepisode and I was in the middle of
abusing drugs during the pandemic.
And he said all the things thatwas currently happening to me.
Where it was like, he also separates thetwo out recognizes, and he doesn't, like,
(28:36):
he gave himself permission to say, like,my sobriety date isn't changing, which is
up for interpretation in the AA community.
Right.
Of course.
And to me, first of all, thatgave me a lot of hope because I
was like, I earned that sobriety.
I haven't drank alcohol and thatfeels really important to me.
But it's the hiding in plainsight is what I call it.
(28:59):
And so when I wrote that articleand I put it out in the world.
I made the claim that he was keeping mesober because he was being so honest.
All the while, I was actuallydoing exactly what he was doing,
which was hiding using drugs.
And so I wanted to show everyone,again, putting on the lipstick
(29:21):
before the meeting, I wanted to showeverybody that I was doing great.
And you need to see that, like, I'mworking mom of three, at home in
the pandemic, yes, I'm struggling.
But I'm still doing itall and I'm still sober.
That's important for you to see.
And so, he was saving my sobriety,yes, but I needed that kick from him
(29:44):
of saying, and like, actually lookingmyself in the mirror and being like,
Yeah, you're sober, but you're not clean.
You're not clean.
So what's your clean date?
My clean date is August 6th, 2021.
So I did one year inside the pandemicof pure, you know, and then that my
(30:06):
clean date is the day after I overdosedon THC tincture where I hallucinated,
was completely out of my mind.
And my husband was there for thatand witnessed that unfolding and
the next day we had a very similarconversation that we had 10 years before.
(30:31):
And he just said, what's going on?
And I said, turns out I have aproblem with everything because he
knew I was experimenting with otherthings and that was the other thing
is I was being very forthcoming.
Like I talked to my sponsor.
I talked to my doctor.
I said, but we're in the pandemic.
So like rules don't apply,
(30:53):
Right?
I can take my anti anxietymedication, but I will also try
this new natural TH, you know.
No.
And so that was part of the hiding inplain sight as well, of like, if I'm
putting it all out there and I'm superupfront, but then in reality I'm sneaking,
I'm hiding, I'm lying, I'm doing allthe same things that I was doing with
alcohol, I'm just doing it with drugs now.
(31:15):
You're a walking, talking, writingexample of your last, of this
quote I'm going to give you.
I'll let you walk away with this.
Cause I like this.
You wrote that the stigma associatedwith addiction is never going to go away
as long as we tiptoe around the topicand continue to attribute it with shame.
(31:36):
Yeah.
So I'm working on mysecond book right now.
I was going to ask you that.
I got a two book deal from HarperCollinswhen I when I signed Between the
Devil and the Deep Blue Sea and soI'm working on that right now and I'm
very much talking about the subjectof shame and specifically with women.
And so to me it's very important to beforward facing when it comes to the truth
(32:02):
about what addiction actually looks like.
There's so much confusion about it.
And to me, it was really important notonly to write a book about it and show,
especially with mommy wine culture andthe the push that we have where women
are allowed to use alcohol as a crutch.
And just like, well, motherhood is hard.
(32:24):
Here's wine.
Which by the way is deeply rootedin misogyny because we don't
say that to men like fatherhoodis hard do you need a beer?
Do you need substanceto get you through this?
So that's where my, like, feminist rantcomes in, but it's so important and
to me I think it's all associated withshame because we're so tempted to shame
(32:48):
women into submission, shame them intofeeling badly about a disease that I have.
I will never feel badly about that.
I will always be honest and upfrontabout it because every single time I
have I cannot tell you the amount ofpeople... I just handed out 18 month
(33:10):
chip to someone who she messaged meto say, like, I think I have a problem
with alcohol because you put it outthat, like, this is what it sounds like.
Why would I hide that?
If that's gonna potentiallyhelp to put somebody on a path?
Like, if I have a small part inthat, I will be very loud, and I
will shout it from the rooftops.
(33:31):
Good for you.
I lied.
I have one more question for you.
Yeah.
Does your husband surf?
My husband doesn't surf.
My sister surfs.
(laugh) Hey, you gottaread the book to get that.
And my first love surfed, actually.
Oh!
You know, like my, like,teen, my teen love.
And he is actually aprofessional surfer now.
(33:52):
And I was just talking tohim the other day, actually.
And I was like, oh!
He's like, when are you comingto San Diego on your tour?
I was like, I'll be there.
Honestly, surfing to me, in thisbook, I loved the idea in general,
it's like, surfing, running, sex,drinking, any form of escape the main
character could explore, anything thatis outside of herself she would do,
(34:17):
and that to me was a very importanttheme, because we're so consumed with
escapism, and like not feel this?
How do we not, how, how do we notexperience the hard and what can we do?
And so, what I ultimately want toconvey is that motherhood is not a thing
(34:37):
that we need to, like, the hard isn'tthings that we need to escape from.
Like, we can exist insidethe hard and still be okay.
And still, and still findjoy in it, even in the hard.
And so yeah, surfing was theperfect, using the ocean and
the metaphors and all of that.
So yeah.
(34:58):
It's great.
The book is Between the Devil andDeep Blue Sea, and it's terrific.
Pre-order, it it's on thebottom of the podcast.
Jess thanks for your work.
When you do the second one,I'll invite you back on.
Yes, please.
I would love to.
For all of you listening we alwaysappreciate you listening, listen
in anytime you're able untilthen stay safe and surf's up.
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
It never ceases to amaze me how muchcreativity and truth come in recovery.
I'm privileged to be able to have oneof those conversations today with an
(00:32):
extremely gifted and passionate woman,Jessica Guerreri is a writer and
novelist who lives in Northern Californiawith her husband and three daughters.
With a background in special education,Jessica left the field to pursue a
career in writing and raise her children.
With over a decade of sobriety, she is afierce advocate for addiction recovery and
her award winning debut book Club fictionnovel Between the Devil and the Deep
(00:57):
Blue Sea is available for order today.
And Jessica we'll put links on theblurb of the podcast so people can go
and order it today after they hear.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Pre order it because it comes outMay 13th, but pre ordering is so
important, especially for debut.
So it'll be bookstoreseverywhere, May 13th.
That's gotta be exciting.
Do you have a whole bunchof signings and appearances?
(01:20):
(chuckle) Honestly, it's like, I just feellike I'm floating above my body most of
the time, which as somebody in recovery,it's amazing to be floating above my
body in such a wonderful sense of theworld, it's so different than before.
But I just look, I can't believe it.
I, yes, I have appearances.
I get to go, across the country.
(01:41):
It's no joke.
It's so thrilling.
We'll get to your book in a minute,but when I do these, I always like to
start with the, for me, the good stuff.
You're recovering for over a decade now.
Yup, I am.
Alcohol, right?
Yes.
I'm recovering from alcohol.
So in May I'll have 12years of continued sobriety.
(02:04):
And then I also identifyas an addict as well.
And so I have a separate clean date.
Which is in August of 2021, andI just separate those two out for
reasons that I'm sure we'll get into.
(laugh)
Well, let's do that, becausenot everybody, you know this,
not everybody does that.
I kind of like that, but whydid you decide to do that?
(02:28):
So, obviously I got sober through arecovery program, through a 12 step
program, and I'm very vocal about that.
Inside the program, we talk aboutother forms of alcohol, right?
And so, to me, I was hanging on to thatlast little bit of, like, not ready to be
fully succumb and powerless to everything.
(02:50):
And when the pandemic rolledaround, to me, it was like
Well, it's the end of the world.
And I'm sober and I had sixyears of sobriety at that point.
And I was like, okay, I have enoughrecovery under my belt and all of
our meetings went virtual whichwasn't great for me, I love in
person I'm a people centered person.
And so I use that as an excuse tokind of back away from the program
(03:11):
and start to explore other sort ofquitlet fiction and things like that.
And inside of that space they aremore forgiving to the idea that like,
you can identify separately and have,some people do, they don't drink
alcohol, but maybe they do marijuana.
And, that's everyone's journey.
(03:31):
My experience was that I can'tdo anything halfway, I can't put
any substance inside of my bodywithout completely overdoing it.
And I needed to learn that lessonthe hard way, as most addicts do.
And so that's what I did during thepandemic, which is actually how my novel
came to be, because I was able to writefrom a place of active addiction, not
(03:53):
necessarily with alcohol, because that'swhat my main character's issue is.
But addiction is addiction.
And so as you've read the novel,the feelings of being trapped
inside that are visceral and real.
And you can read that in the book.
I'm shaking my head because you'reabout the millionth woman to talk
(04:16):
to me about pandemic isolation.
And so, boy, that did anumber on us, didn't it?
I mean, honestly, I think, Imean, everybody had their horrible
experience, of course, but I wasat home and my husband worked.
He was an essential worker.
So he was out of the home.
I was at home with a five year old who hadhalfway through kindergarten and pulled
(04:39):
out of kindergarten and a four year oldwho was in preschool and an 18 month old.
And it was actually my hell tobe trapped at home in that way.
Because like I said, I need people.
I have a community.
I'm part of a mom's workout groupcalled Fit for Mom with Lynn Davis.
And we do, motherhood and mentalhealth where we're exercising.
(05:01):
I do Spartans.
I love community.
And so to just be isolated with them,it brought out the, like the darkest,
ugliest versions of motherhood in me.
And I learned that I wasn't alone in that.
That was so common.
And I wanted to show that, like, I wasn'tafraid to show the ugliness of that.
(05:21):
Because I think there's so much shamethat's attached with that where it was
just like, it's not okay to say thesethings about and not be grateful for
our children every moment of every day.
And I was like, but this is horrible.
(laugh) Like, this is terrible to be,you know, there's milestones of my third
daughter that nobody ever witnessed,right, besides us as her family, right?
(05:43):
And that's like, part of that iswe live near family and we didn't
get to share that with them.
Like her first steps and words andthings that we'll just never get back.
And that's tragic.
I've had a lot of people, not a lot,but I've had a bunch of different
folks try to tell me and convince methat edibles are okay in recovery.
(06:03):
And that's where we're going.
That, you know, those, thatblurring of the line, that's a
dangerous little tight rope to walk.
Sure.
So here's my, here's my rigorous honesty,because I'm very upfront about it.
My drug of choice was edibles.
I abused THC and that in the cornersof my brain, I was like, had I had
(06:26):
access to other things, granted,I also got access to painkillers,
so I was mixing those as well, andthat was like, very telling, too.
But I live in California, andit's, we do drive through cannabis.
And I told myself that this istotally fine and of course, like,
my addiction brain is screamingat me, like, this is not fine, you
(06:46):
know this isn't fine, I had friendstelling me this isn't going to work.
And I just absolutely took it too far.
As I do.
Of course, as I do.
And so that, to me, I think is veryimportant, because I also wanted
to message people saying that, youknow what, you actually can overdo
(07:08):
it with things like THC, becausethat messaging is very confusing.
That it's natural and it's all the things.
If it's a substance, You can abuse it.
You had something very similarhappen to you that happened
to my mom way back in the day.
You had a physician that you went to,and my mom, despite the fact she was in
(07:28):
his office from overdosing on alcohol,he wrote her prescription for Valium.
Right.
Oh, same.
I mean, I literally, on my my Kaiser.
You know, diagnostic of everything.
First of all, I was very upset becausethey don't say, in recovery, they
say like, substance abuse disorder.
(07:49):
And I'm like, well, hey, like, I'min recovery, yes, I do have this.
But I also think you guys shouldhave a box that says, checking that
you are working a program becausethey say the same questions of how
many alcoholic drinks do you have.
But I end up going to my doctor and Itold them, after I came out as being
an addict as well, I said, In my chart,please write, Do not prescribe this
(08:12):
woman anything, no matter what she says.
Oh, good for you.
Good for you.
Well, how did they react to that?
I can't, I cannot.
And I don't want to be tempted by it.
Like, I need that honesty so badlyand that's the thing that keeps me
clean and sober, is like, I need to beheld accountable because if you let a
little bit of a messaging come in, itjust sneaks in, and it'll find a way.
(08:36):
Yeah, oh, that, that is great.
I can just see the doubletake from that person.
Of course, I like, I neededit for, I had to do an MRI.
And I'm claustrophobic, and so I talkedwith my doctor, I talked with my sponsor,
and I said I, I have to do this MRI wehave a history of breast cancer in my
family, and so we're rigorous in ourtesting for everything, and I said I
cannot get in this tube without something.
(09:00):
And they said, okay, but it sayson your chart (laugh), I know!
I was like, do you wantme to call my sponsor too?
We can all get on the phone.
But you know, it was justlike, I have to tell on myself.
I always tell him myself.
That's the kind of honesty you need.
I'm going to ask you onemore question about yourself.
Cause it cracked me up.
Talk about the first time you went toan AA meeting sitting in the parking
(09:22):
lot, that just, that was so good.
You know.
Okay.
So and it's also like, just karma.
'cause I have three daughters, right?
And so, like, I was a tomboy as a kid.
Like I love sports.
I'm 6' 1", so I'm an athlete.
But I also love all things girly.
And so my, like youngestis my, like my girly girl.
And so, it's so interesting to me thatin my head at the time, as sick as I
(09:48):
was, I had literally, I'd fallen off, Iwas painting my house while intoxicated
during spring break when I was a teacher.
And I got drunk and decided topaint my living room, as you do.
And I ended up falling off a chairand I tore my knee in three places.
And so, I was on painkillers.
(10:08):
I was, on into anxiety medication, andthen I was drinking, two to three bottles
of wine a night at the same time, so like,on my, like, death's door, essentially,
and then I have this enormous knee brace.
And I'm literally, and I wear, like, a,I specifically chose, like, a long skirt
to cover my knee brace, even though,like, I'm hobbling on crutches, and I'm,
like, sitting there in the back alley,because like, some of these meetings,
(10:31):
places are not exactly the most, you know.
And I'm putting on, like, bright redlipstick, like, because the image
of myself and what I presented tothe public was so important to me to
show that I still had it together.
Literally I was broken, like, fallingapart at the seams, but look, I
(10:54):
still look, I mean, I, my facewas puffy, I looked like a shadow
of myself, and yet I still was soconcerned with the image of it.
Walking into a room with otherrecovering alcoholics, I needed
to be the most functioning.
I needed to be the hottestalcoholic that was in that...
With a knee brace.
(11:15):
(laugh)
With a knee brace.
With, yeah, with a drinking,it's like, come on, but to
me that I can laugh at that.
Now, of course, I can laughwith you about that now, because
that is the epitome of it.
That is what we are in my head,especially as a woman and how we're
supposed to present in a certain way.
To me, like, that just says it all.
(11:36):
The reason I liked it is I thinkthat that is pretty typical of that
facade that people try to maintain.
Let's talk about your book for aminute because there's a contrast in
your book and your other writings.
When you got pregnant you celebratedyour pregnancy, am I getting this right?
On the same day you got your 30 day chip?
I did, I took the pregnancy insideof an AA, well I had already taken a
(12:00):
pregnancy test and it was positive,but as a true alcoholic, I like, I
don't believe it until something'slike, smacking me in the face.
So I had like 15 pregnancy tests, soone of my tests I actually took in
the bathroom of my 30 day AA meetingwhere I received my 30 day chip.
My husband and I had been "trying"(finger quotes) to get pregnant
(12:21):
with, children for over a year.
And by trying, I mean, youheard what I was doing.
I was abusing drugs and alcohol.
And it was like the ultimateGod shot for me of, okay, well,
here, it happened.
And for me, I'm very specific inthis instance that I don't hang my
(12:44):
recovery on my children's shoulders.
It's not their burden to carry.
And I would never say like,I got sober for my children.
It's actually like, to me, the mostamazing thing that they helped me
stay sober than I think I was going tobecause I got pregnant and I had that
(13:06):
protective barrier, like, I say built inprotective barrier of another thing that
was like, okay, I really can't drink.
But like I said, I had to tell on myself.
Because I ended up calling my entirefamily, all my friends even before I got
pregnant, so in my first, like, two weeks,I told everybody, I'm an alcoholic, I
(13:27):
can't drink anymore, hold me accountable,make sure you know and so, I needed that.
I needed that because had I notgotten pregnant with my daughter,
and I can say this in full honesty,I absolutely would have started
drinking the moment she was born.
And I would have backpedaled andsaid like, nope, it wasn't a problem.
Nope, it was fine.
(13:49):
And to be honest, my daughter wouldn'thave survived that in the sense
that I wouldn't be able to mother,safely the way that I was drinking.
I was passing out, not able to come to.
I couldn't take care of a newbornat the same time doing that.
Compare your personal experiencewith that to the choice that you gave
the main character in your novel.
(14:11):
Leah, the main character, the narrator,she celebrates her pregnancy by?
So this was very important to me.
So Leah, she has three children as well.
You'll see some similarities in there.
She's also very tall.
(laugh) You know, there's somethings that we have in common.
(14:32):
Her first two pregnancies, she doesn'tdrink and isn't tempted to drink.
And I wanted to show sort ofhow it can slip in there and
go sort of under the radar.
And this was very important to me tobe to show because it's very authentic
to the experience, at least of myexperience and what I've heard in the
rooms and other people's experiencein recovery by the third baby.
(14:56):
And this was true formy pregnancy as well.
Yeah, I had no interest in drinking, likeit did sound gross, like coffee sounded
gross, things that we weren't supposedto have, like sushi sounded gross.
So that was like a nice reprieve,right, from my mental obsession.
But I will say, by the third baby, andthe reason that I put this out there
that Leah actually does drink in herthird pregnancy she has like a bender.
(15:23):
I wanted to show this because, It isvery... I wanted to take this, shame
away from this idea of, the choiceof it, given that women, if you're
struggling with addiction, or even ifyou're not, and this whole narrative
surrounding shaming women around drinkingwith pregnancy or not drinking and Oh,
(15:47):
it's, even if I'm at a event and I'mnot drinking and people don't know,
they're like, Oh, are you pregnant?
And it's just like, why isthis all associated with this?
To me, it was really important toshow that and to take the shame
away from it because for her, itwas like a foregone conclusion.
She had, she was already doing thesethings and didn't want to be doing them.
(16:08):
It's not that she didn'tlove her children.
It's not that she didn'twant to be pregnant.
It is a force greater than yourself.
And for me that wasreally important to show.
And I recognized that in myself becauseby the time I had my third and I was
nursing her, I ended up nursing her longerthan I did with my other ones because it
(16:30):
was another protective barrier, right?
It was another way of like, beinglike, no, I, I can't, I can't drink.
And so actually when I got done nursingand done having children I did the steps
again with my sponsor because I was like,I feel like a newbie because I'm coming
in this, a completely different placewith, number one, all these children now,
and I don't have a protective barrier.
(16:52):
And so for me, it was reallyimportant to put that in the
novel in that capacity as well.
You mentioned Leah's struggles andyou communicate that so well in the
novel and your literary agent saidthat you write pain so beautifully.
That's a great way to put it.
And I'm not a literary agent.
However she's right, man.
(17:12):
You can feel it in the novel.
As a non novel writer, when you'rewriting that, do you feel the pain?
Like when you're writingthe pain, do you feel it?
Are you reliving part of it?
How much is autobiographical?
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I just listened to the Audible version,so our narrator Mia Hutchinson Shaw does
(17:36):
an incredible version, like her acting in,she is Leah, I actually got to pick from a
cast of people and they had them read andI listened to the first chapter of my book
from all of these incredible voice actors.
And then when I heard hervoice and I heard her do it
I was like Leah, is that you?
(17:57):
(laugh)
Wow, that's great.
Talk about out of body viscerallyfeeling it inside my body.
So I spent all weekend doinglaundry with my earbuds in.
And so, I actually, to experience my bookthat way and then hear my own pain and
my own reliving of that it took a toll,like, it feels like a gut punch and I came
(18:26):
away from it being like, wow, you know,this is gonna be too much for some people.
This'll be like, too heavy forsome people, but I like came in
crying to my husband because he wasworking in his office and I was just
like, I'm so dang proud of this.
So amazed that I'm still here.
(18:48):
Because this pain is so, it was soreal at the time I don't feel it
anymore, but it is the nostalgic achethat I talk a lot about in the book.
Glennon Doyle talks a lot about this like,ache as it associates with motherhood and
addiction and longing, and I really liketapped into that idea, because that's what
it is, it's this like, all the ways acheis one of the quotes that I have in there,
(19:12):
and it's true about motherhood in general.
It's just hard no matter what.
It's hard if you're in recovery.
It's hard if you're an addiction.
It's hard if you're not.
It's it's just hard.
And by the way, if you're listeningto this or watching it on the YouTube
channel, there's no spoilers here I'mnot gonna give away the end of the book.
But there's themes in the book andit's not just Leah's pain, ah, but
(19:38):
the pain of family is so relatable andI found myself just going, yep, yep.
Secrets, Jessica, family secretsjust are so, so dysfunctional.
And everyone has them.
Yes!
Right!
So for me, one of the themes isthere's the mother in law trope, right?
(20:01):
That I use of everybody's heard theversion of the, like, the terrible
mother in law and this idea.
And to me I wanted to play off of theidea that the main character was going
to pick a villain that was not herself.
She wasn't the villain of her story.
And so, I've gotten a lot of feedbackpositive feedback as it relates to this
(20:26):
unique idea where I take the villain ina different direction because it's not
the, like, typical evil mother in law.
And that was really important to mebecause I married into a very established
family and I had the most wonderfulmother in law in the entire world.
She unfortunately passed awaytragically, unexpectedly during COVID.
(20:48):
And I actually wrote this as a loveletter to her, which her family now
reads it and everybody reads it andknows like she was never that person,
but I villainized her and other peoplein my life because they were the problem.
I wasn't the problem.
(21:08):
And so ultimately for me, the loveletter that I wrote to her is the
relationship between Amy, who is thesister in law and the mother in law
characters and they're able to cometogether and find an understanding.
And so that's where it's,it's this tie in, but yeah,
it's the family secrets to me.
(21:29):
Those are my favorite books toread in the whole world, like
complicated family dynamics.
If that's in there, sign me upbecause everybody relates to it.
I come from a big family.
I married into a big family.
There's just something so fascinatingabout the ins and outs of it all.
And silly at the same time, because
(21:50):
what we do.
Totally.
You mentioned how shevillainizes Christine, right?
Or the mother in law.
Well, she also does that self focus.
There's a scene in there, this isno spoilers again, where Lucas and
his brother, that's her husband,is building the restaurant, and
she makes a comment that he can seeeverything in the restaurant before
(22:13):
he even pounds the first nail.
How come he can't seewhat his wife is becoming?
Everything is about her.
When you're in the middle of thataddiction, right, it's so you.
Right.
And yes, it's so egocentric, right?
You can't, I mean, it goes back tolike me putting on lipstick before.
(22:33):
Yes, right.
It's exactly that, where it's like,you cannot see what's truly going on.
And so one of the things thatis so interesting, and it's the
difference between when I see thatpeople either understand my book
and are very much afflicted or havesomeone they know about addiction.
(22:54):
Some people will come back andsay Leah is very unlikable.
And I don't understand howshe could be so selfish.
And I'm like, wow, you must not haveanyone, anyone in your family who
is an addict or an alcoholic becausethat's the nature of the disease.
But the thing it isn't the person becauseyou're talking with me right now and
(23:14):
this person that I am right now is notthe person that I was 12 years ago.
I mean, yes, we are talking all about me,(laugh) and that's like, my ego loves it.
I'm like, yay, let's talk about me.
But I'm not focused on the thing thatwas all consuming, which was how do I get
access to drinking and drugs by any meansnecessary, by hurting anyone necessary.
(23:38):
Instead, my focus nowis like, How do I help?
How do I get this message out tomore people and how do I offer a
sense of hope because I'm livingproof that recovery is possible.
And I want to be that.
And so, yeah, yes, Leah is anincredibly selfish, self centered,
(23:59):
but at the heart of it is from heraddiction and that is what I want.
I wanted to show that viscerallyand make it very clear that is t
isn't her at the core of who she is.
She suffered.
And at the same time, youcan't help but feel for Lucas.
Right.
What a weird place to be like,no matter which way he leans,
(24:23):
he's going to take crap.
And if he tries to ride themiddle, well, that never worked.
Right?
Right.
So what's a spouse to do?
I love that you brought that up becausemy favorite reactions have actually
been like husband and male reactions.
A lot of my best friends have read mybook and then their husbands go on to read
it and like one husband like wrote likea book report on it and sent it to me.
(24:47):
(laugh)
Did you correct it?
You're an old teacher
No, it was like introspective bookreport like how this will help men
and husbands and I'm like, amazing.
But I feel like it is such a hard placeto be as a partner on the other side.
It was hard for my husband to readthis, obviously a lot of the arguments
(25:10):
were like verbatim arguments thatwe've had, we had during my addiction,
but it's you it's a lose lose.
You can't win, right?
My husband never presentedme with an ultimatum.
He never said, you needto stop drinking or else.
But what he did say to me that willforever have changed the course of
(25:32):
how my sobriety ultimately went was Idon't feel safe having kids with you,
And to me, like, there, it was nogreater way that he could hurt me,
and it wasn't him, he was sayingthis monster is making it so I can't.
(25:54):
And of course my inside addiction,your resentment is like, oh, how
dare you, and it's your fault,and it's your mother's fault, and
it's everyone else's fault, right?
And so, I had to hear that and Ilearned through that, like, and I
actually told myself, I was like,Oh, well then I just won't be a
mother because I want to drink more.
(26:17):
And then that was actually the firststatement that I made to myself
that scared me more than anythingand said, I think something's wrong
because I wanted to be a mother.
Well, right.
And don't you think that's the place wherepeople look and say, well, if this Diet
Pepsi is more important to me than myrelationships that's kind of messed up.
(26:41):
That is such a hard pill to swallow.
Yeah,
it is.
But it's such a hard pill to swallowbecause it's like, we as a society,
we want more of everything, right?
And we're so fed that way.
And so to come at it from a placeof like, oh no, you can't do this
anymore, and you can't safely.
(27:02):
A place of no, like you trulyhave to change and your mortality
is looking at you in the face.
That is hard.
It is really, really hard to come to that.
And to go back to your point aboutthe partner and the spouse is that.
No one else is going to do it for you.
Like, if my husband could do recoveryfor me and save my life, he would.
(27:24):
He absolutely would.
And it's not about love, right?
It's not about how much you love someone.
You can't love someone into recovery.
My children don't keep me sober.
I make a conscious choice to stay sober.
So that's the thing.
And I think that's the hardestpart where people are coming to.
They have to get there on theirown and what does it take?
(27:45):
And it, and it takes whatit takes for every person.
I love how you talk about beinghonest and forthcoming because
it keeps you on the right path.
You also wrote an article that Iliked how Dax Shepard's relapse, the
actor, podcaster, how Dax Shepard'srelapse is saving my sobriety.
How did his disclosure of him fallingoff for a little while help you?
(28:10):
So when I listened to his causeI love armchair anonymous and
armchair expert and all of that.
And when I listened to his relapseepisode and I was in the middle of
abusing drugs during the pandemic.
And he said all the things thatwas currently happening to me.
Where it was like, he also separates thetwo out recognizes, and he doesn't, like,
(28:36):
he gave himself permission to say, like,my sobriety date isn't changing, which is
up for interpretation in the AA community.
Right.
Of course.
And to me, first of all, thatgave me a lot of hope because I
was like, I earned that sobriety.
I haven't drank alcohol and thatfeels really important to me.
But it's the hiding in plainsight is what I call it.
(28:59):
And so when I wrote that articleand I put it out in the world.
I made the claim that he was keeping mesober because he was being so honest.
All the while, I was actuallydoing exactly what he was doing,
which was hiding using drugs.
And so I wanted to show everyone,again, putting on the lipstick
(29:21):
before the meeting, I wanted to showeverybody that I was doing great.
And you need to see that, like, I'mworking mom of three, at home in
the pandemic, yes, I'm struggling.
But I'm still doing itall and I'm still sober.
That's important for you to see.
And so, he was saving my sobriety,yes, but I needed that kick from him
(29:44):
of saying, and like, actually lookingmyself in the mirror and being like,
Yeah, you're sober, but you're not clean.
You're not clean.
So what's your clean date?
My clean date is August 6th, 2021.
So I did one year inside the pandemicof pure, you know, and then that my
(30:06):
clean date is the day after I overdosedon THC tincture where I hallucinated,
was completely out of my mind.
And my husband was there for thatand witnessed that unfolding and
the next day we had a very similarconversation that we had 10 years before.
(30:31):
And he just said, what's going on?
And I said, turns out I have aproblem with everything because he
knew I was experimenting with otherthings and that was the other thing
is I was being very forthcoming.
Like I talked to my sponsor.
I talked to my doctor.
I said, but we're in the pandemic.
So like rules don't apply,
(30:53):
Right?
I can take my anti anxietymedication, but I will also try
this new natural TH, you know.
No.
And so that was part of the hiding inplain sight as well, of like, if I'm
putting it all out there and I'm superupfront, but then in reality I'm sneaking,
I'm hiding, I'm lying, I'm doing allthe same things that I was doing with
alcohol, I'm just doing it with drugs now.
(31:15):
You're a walking, talking, writingexample of your last, of this
quote I'm going to give you.
I'll let you walk away with this.
Cause I like this.
You wrote that the stigma associatedwith addiction is never going to go away
as long as we tiptoe around the topicand continue to attribute it with shame.
(31:36):
Yeah.
So I'm working on mysecond book right now.
I was going to ask you that.
I got a two book deal from HarperCollinswhen I when I signed Between the
Devil and the Deep Blue Sea and soI'm working on that right now and I'm
very much talking about the subjectof shame and specifically with women.
And so to me it's very important to beforward facing when it comes to the truth
(32:02):
about what addiction actually looks like.
There's so much confusion about it.
And to me, it was really important notonly to write a book about it and show,
especially with mommy wine culture andthe the push that we have where women
are allowed to use alcohol as a crutch.
And just like, well, motherhood is hard.
(32:24):
Here's wine.
Which by the way is deeply rootedin misogyny because we don't
say that to men like fatherhoodis hard do you need a beer?
Do you need substanceto get you through this?
So that's where my, like, feminist rantcomes in, but it's so important and
to me I think it's all associated withshame because we're so tempted to shame
(32:48):
women into submission, shame them intofeeling badly about a disease that I have.
I will never feel badly about that.
I will always be honest and upfrontabout it because every single time I
have I cannot tell you the amount ofpeople... I just handed out 18 month
(33:10):
chip to someone who she messaged meto say, like, I think I have a problem
with alcohol because you put it outthat, like, this is what it sounds like.
Why would I hide that?
If that's gonna potentiallyhelp to put somebody on a path?
Like, if I have a small part inthat, I will be very loud, and I
will shout it from the rooftops.
(33:31):
Good for you.
I lied.
I have one more question for you.
Yeah.
Does your husband surf?
My husband doesn't surf.
My sister surfs.
(laugh) Hey, you gottaread the book to get that.
And my first love surfed, actually.
Oh!
You know, like my, like,teen, my teen love.
And he is actually aprofessional surfer now.
(33:52):
And I was just talking tohim the other day, actually.
And I was like, oh!
He's like, when are you comingto San Diego on your tour?
I was like, I'll be there.
Honestly, surfing to me, in thisbook, I loved the idea in general,
it's like, surfing, running, sex,drinking, any form of escape the main
character could explore, anything thatis outside of herself she would do,
(34:17):
and that to me was a very importanttheme, because we're so consumed with
escapism, and like not feel this?
How do we not, how, how do we notexperience the hard and what can we do?
And so, what I ultimately want toconvey is that motherhood is not a thing
(34:37):
that we need to, like, the hard isn'tthings that we need to escape from.
Like, we can exist insidethe hard and still be okay.
And still, and still findjoy in it, even in the hard.
And so yeah, surfing was theperfect, using the ocean and
the metaphors and all of that.
So yeah.
(34:58):
It's great.
The book is Between the Devil andDeep Blue Sea, and it's terrific.
Pre-order, it it's on thebottom of the podcast.
Jess thanks for your work.
When you do the second one,I'll invite you back on.
Yes, please.
I would love to.
For all of you listening we alwaysappreciate you listening, listen
in anytime you're able untilthen stay safe and surf's up.
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