August 20, 2025 • 36 mins
When people experience trauma, they often share that trauma and their reactions to it with those closest to them. Research has also shown that response to trauma and the resulting mental health issues that come with it can be passed down generationally. Dr. Ghazaleh Bailey discusses how trauma is passed down generationally and even epigenetically. Dr. Bailey is a certified therapist, couple’s therapist, supervisor, and trainer with a PhD in Psychology. She is based in Berlin, Germany, and has a unique multi-cultural background and approach that she uses to help people overcome childhood and generational trauma. Her work and research focuses on the healing power of emotion transformation and self-compassion. Dr. Bailey can be reached at https://individual-therapy-berlin.de/about-me/ and her YouTube channel is at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCE2DGM97OgfKz-CIvGaYCoA Dr. Bailey’s online courses can be accessed at https://individual-therapy-berlin.de/online-courses/ Listeners can receive a 30% discount using the code HEAL. Additional information on the epigenetic research discussed can be found at https://www.research.va.gov/currents/1016-3.cfm The State of Wisconsin's Dose of Reality campaign is at https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/opioids/index.htm More information about the federal response to the ongoing opioid crisis can be found at https://www.dea.gov/onepill
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Welcome everybody.
This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction,brought to you by Westwords Consulting,
the Kenosha County Substance Use DisorderCoalition, and by a grant from the
state of Wisconsin's Dose of Reality.
Real talks reminding you that opioids arepowerful drugs and that one pill can kill.
I'm Mike McGowan.
A while back, I had the privilegeof having a conversation with our
(00:34):
guest today, Dr. Ghazaleh Bailey.
We talked about toxic trauma, shame andboundaries during that conversation.
Wanna continue that conversation today,extending it to multi-generational
messaging and behavioral patternsand even genetic patterns.
Ghazaleh is a certified therapist,couple therapist, supervisor and
(00:55):
trainer with a PhD in psychology.
She's based in Berlin, Germany, andhas a unique multicultural and approach
that she uses to help people overcomechildhood and generational trauma.
Her work and research is focusedon healing power of emotion,
transformation, and self-compassion.
Welcome back, Ghazaleh.
(01:16):
Hi Mike.
Good to see you again.
Well, I'm thrilled to talk to you again.
Let's catch people up just a little.
The last time we talked about the manychildren who get shaming messages from
their primary caregivers, just to refreshit, parents can bully and belittle their
children and pass on those messages.
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember that conversationand we were talking about those subtle
(01:37):
messages parents can send throughcomparison, comparison of siblings,
comparison with other children.
Oh, look at the other one.
In many different kind of ways, but alsoin direct ways of actually being critical.
Actually, you know, notacknowledging needs.
And not acknowledging emotions,making fun of children, talking
(02:00):
badly about them in front of others.
So there are so manydifferent kind of ways.
Sometimes, you know, intentionally,but many times actually subconsciously
parents can leave children feelingthere is something wrong with you.
And that's the core emotion thatcomes to life when I'm bullied.
It's this deep feeling of, so theremust be something wrong with me.
(02:21):
I mean, we know meanwhile, when childrenget bullied by other children and peers.
The first question they askthemselves is, what's wrong
with me that they don't like me?
Yep.
So it's the same question thatcomes to life that makes them
feel ashamed about themselves.
When parents belittle them or leave themfeeling your needs don't matter, or leave
them feeling, oh, you are the child.
(02:41):
How could you know?
And I'm the parent andI know better than you.
Or, you know, you should justbe quiet or actually let them
know you're not good enough.
And unfortunately, some parents do that.
I mean, I'm sure I always believe parentsgive their best as much as they can,
and sometimes they don't understandhow the language they use can make
(03:05):
children feel awful about themselves.
And that sticks with us, and we carrythat inside our adulthood, and then
we feel worthless and ashamed and thenwe act on it in many different ways.
I was at the grocery store last week andthere's a couple of parents with their
kids there, and right in the middleof the aisle, in front of strangers
(03:26):
one of the parents threatened to whooptheir kid if they continue behavior.
And I thought, okay, one, the first thingthe kid does is cry and look around.
So that's a shaming experience.
And I then I thoughtabout our conversation.
I thought, well.
I bet that parent just passedalong something that they got
(03:46):
when they were kids as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
I had a similar situation witha grandma, so I was in a public
transport with my 4-year-old daughter.
And then the bus stopped andthe little one, there was a
little girl with a grandmother.
The grandmother kind of saidto her, we need to get off.
And the little girl didn't hear her.
(04:07):
You could really see likeshe was in her own world.
She didn't hear the grandma.
And then the grandma startedreally shouting at her.
Grabbed and pulled her out of thebus and told her, are you deaf?
And in a really bad tone.
And my daughter was like, ohmy God, what's happening here?
Right.
And so I was like, so if this is thegrandma, how does her mother talk to her?
(04:30):
Because you know, if this is agrandma talking to her, I guess
that's how she talked to her daughter.
Yep.
And her daughter being her mom.
I guess this is what the little girlis used to, because I think if the
mother would've been a cycle breakerand aware of those pattern, she would
have probably not let the girls spendtime with the grandma like that.
(04:51):
(laughs)
Yeah.
So, you start protecting thenext generation when you have the
awareness of what happened to you.
Well, okay, to use your story.
At some point, some parenthas gotta get off the bus.
For this multi-generational messagingand trauma, we have to make the decision.
(05:12):
Right.
I'm stopping it here.
Mm-hmm.
And you know what?
It starts with that decision.
Yeah.
This is the most powerful decision.
Acknowledging there is somethingwrong in my family system.
And I need to change this andI'm gonna do something different.
Right?
Yeah.
(05:32):
And it's impossible to break allpatterns and not repeat anything and
be the perfect parent and caregiver.
But making that intentional decisionand being so mindful about it shift
so much inside our bodies, insideour nervous system, because we just
act on things in a different way.
We see things in a different way.
(05:53):
We realize things in a different way.
So that intention to say, I am gonnado something different, and it starts
with me and the past ends with me.
Awesome.
The reason that I called you to doanother one is that I was looking
at a study of Holocaust survivors,veterans and trauma victims, and the
(06:14):
incidents of post-traumatic stress.
My first thought is, it's notsurprising that the incidence of PTSD
is higher among those groups, right?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
You know what Mike, maybe it makessense to explain to our listeners
what PTSD actually is, PostTraumatic Stress Disorder, because
it's also one of those terms.
(06:35):
It's been used a lot, but not manypeople know really what it is right?
But everybody uses it, right?
Yeah.
It's like I'm depressed,but what does that mean?
Yeah.
Then you're depressed.
And so, you know, PTSD symptoms usuallydevelop when somebody is exposed to
situations that leaves them feelingincredibly powerless and helpless
(06:58):
and makes it impossible for the humanbeing to cope with that situation.
So that could be a life threateningsituation through, you know,
accidents, natural disasters or waror, you know any kind of situation.
Even watching somebody else beingtraumatized, that leaves the human
being feeling powerless and in threat.
(07:21):
It's a life-threatening situationand I feel powerless and I don't
know how to cope with that.
Mm-hmm.
And so when people are in thesesituations, it doesn't mean that those
stress symptoms, the PTSD symptoms comealive immediately after the trauma.
Sometimes they actually show up weekslater, a month later, or even years later.
(07:43):
And they can show up in so manydifferent kind of ways because sometimes
they show up with hypervigilance,other times they show up with
emotional avoidance and numbing.
Sometimes they show up in formof chronic pain and autoimmune
diseases or other illnesses.
Sometimes they show up becauseI have anxiety or depression.
So the symptoms vary a lot.
(08:04):
So it's sometimes really hardto say what PTSD is, especially
because it rarely comes alone.
It comes in combination withother mental health issues such as
addiction or, you know, self harmor you know, depression or anxiety.
So it's important to really getan understanding of what PTSD
(08:26):
can look like and feel like.
And so oftentimes when people arein immense stress situation like
Holocaust or like there is anotherstudy about pregnant women during
9/11 or people [inaudible], right?
This is like, there are a lot of studiesaround that event and when we are in
(08:47):
stress responses where we feel powerlessand we don't know how to respond to that,
and we are in survival because it's aprolonged traumatic experience and not
only one incident that happens at once.
Then our bodies are in survival.
So what we do first is we try to survive.
(09:08):
We try to kind of go through thistraumatic experience, and that
means that the trauma is moreinternalized by the body because
it's happening repetitively, right?
So it's like when the child.
Has gone through one traumaticexperience is different than when
it goes through complex childhoodtrauma, which means like there is
(09:31):
constant fear at the house, right?
A constant, angry, drunk father,for example, because then the child
goes through extended traumaticexperiences where it feels powerless
and it feels threatened and unsafe.
So the more intense the trauma is,the more difficult it is actually
(09:51):
to recognize that this is trauma.
And yes, the more intense it is, the moreit shapes us and the more it shapes our
soul, our bodies in a biological way,and then we can, we definitely pass it
along faster or more than in, you know,if I go through a situation like a car
(10:12):
accident, which is also a trauma anda traumatic experience, but it might
not shape my identity and my senseof self so much because I had a sense
of self and an identity before that.
Well, okay.
Let's talk about the bodysince you brought that up.
'Cause that was part of the studythat one of the ladies who was a
(10:32):
co-author of the study said that hermom survived the Holocaust, and even
though they moved to America where shealways felt safe, her parents did not.
And so they passed thatfear onto their daughter.
And I was thinking about the parents,like you said, 9/11, the Great Depression,
(10:56):
any war that's gonna happen any time.
And what they found in the study isthat there's epigenetic, there's changes
in some of the gene messages that goforward into the next generation as well.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I'm not a monoculturebiologist, but from what I understand so
far, because it's in a very interestingfield and because, you know, I'm kind of.
(11:17):
I have a lot of clients goingthrough generational trauma.
I also have a lot of Jewish clientswhose parents and their grandparents.
The topic of Holocaust and what they'vebeen through is a life, and I remember
especially one client of mine manyyears ago who always had this fear in
her eyes, and it was not like that herlife was threatened, but her father was
(11:38):
in such an anxious state because hisparents were going through Holocaust.
That whenever she wanted to leavethe house, even go to school, he
would say like, you have to keepyour eyes open and watch out.
So she felt from the beginning of herlife, the world is not a safe place.
And when you know, parents carrythat anxiety inside of them and
(12:02):
it's not about blaming fault, okay?
Then they act on that andthen they give messages.
That leave the child feel okay, watch out.
The world is not safe.
So I grew up with thisanxiousness inside of me.
That's one way through the how parentsrespond, you know, and how they behave
and how this shapes, it's the environment.
(12:22):
The other one is that there arestudies showing that extended long
stressful situations like traumaticexperiences, shape, you know,
can change our gene expression.
That doesn't mean they actuallychange anything in our genetic
code, in our DNA sequence.
That's not what's happening.
(12:43):
But there is this wording that we callepigenetic modification that has to do
with how trauma shapes, how our genesare expressed through the concept of
DNA modulation and the research alsowith the pregnant woman during 9/11
shows that, you know, different kindof traumatic stresses on our body.
(13:05):
Have a great impact on how thismutilation is being kind of going
up or down, and that's what we canalso pass along to the children.
And so the longer the trauma is,the more impact it has on our body.
And there is also, you know, thismethation, especially related
to a specific receptor, theglucocorticoid receptor that is
(13:30):
kind of connected with our cortisol.
So that, that, you know,the [inaudible] receptor.
Kind of has influence on our cortisollevel and cortisol is the stress hormone.
Mm-hmm.
And what, meanwhile for many differentkind of, you know studies is that
trauma has a great response on cortisol.
(13:51):
And I like to bring up anexample, which is myself.
Please.
'Cause I have a very uniqueexperience many years ago.
So my mom was pregnant right after theIran Revolution and during the first
Gulf War, and my mom is a nurse and sheworked in the biggest hospital in Teran.
So she sometimes, you know.
She was telling me that she was highlypregnant and she would see these soldiers
(14:15):
losing arms and you know, she hadto select which arm belongs to which
soldier while her own brother was in war.
And then I was kinda in this, probablyin her stomach and this stress response.
And then I was born and then, you know, myparents decided to leave Germany and I was
going through this traumatic experienceof leaving Iran and coming to Germany.
(14:39):
So I noticed that sometimes it's hardfor me to find calmness inside myself,
though I've been through many years,you know, my own therapeutic journey.
And then a very good friend of minewho specialized in chronic diseases,
he's a doctor, medical doctor,and he was like, you know what?
Let's do a cortisol test with you.
(15:00):
So I did over weeks.
You know, at different times of mylife, I tested my cortisol level.
Mornings when I would wake up, duringthe day, in the evening, and then he
gave me the response that Ghazaleh,your cortisol level is early in
the morning, though there's nothingspecifically going on in your life
that is stressful, higher than somebodyactually in a stressful situation.
(15:24):
So I guess my baseline, my cortisolbaseline is already higher than
other people whose mothers were notgoing through war and who didn't
flee, you know, their home countrywhen they were three years old.
And I guess I have to live with that.
(laughs) But what I dois, I'm aware of it.
I try, I kind of learnto soothe my anxiety.
(15:47):
I learn to calm myself down.
I learn to slow things down in my life,so I can be a calmer parent for my
daughter, right, and kind of help herto feel safer in the world and help
her to feel calmer within herself.
So I think it has a great impact.
You know, trauma, we know meanwhilehas a great biological impact as well.
(16:09):
Not only environmentalor relationship impact.
Do you think you pass someof that on to your daughter?
I don't know.
She's a very highly active personwho, you know, likes to kind of enjoy
life and she was never a good sleeper.
So there was a time in my life where Iwas wondering why is she so restless?
(16:31):
Yes, I could start, blamingmyself or my history or whatever.
But I think, you know, what I didwas I found compassion within myself
that this is not about my fault or mymother's fault or anybody's fault, but
the question is, how can I be there forher in a way that her nervous system
(16:51):
grows up in a calmer environment.
And so it might be that her restlessnessconnected to my higher cortisol level.
And you know, to be honest, I was pregnantduring the first lockdown, which was
quite stressful for everyone, for us.
Oh, absolutely.
Who knows?
So what kind of impactthat had on her, right?
(17:14):
I mean, being pregnant during pandemic,I think many women can relate to that.
It was not the less, I mean it wasa kind of a stressful period for us.
Right.
Absolutely.
Though, you know, I tried my best tomeditate and stay calm and find rest and
soothe myself and all these kind of ways.
I'm sure in some way it impacted her.
(17:36):
What's fascinating about listening toyou tell that is that you come across,
and I know you know this, as a verycomposed, settled, calming influence.
I feel that even when talking toyou, but nobody really knows right.
What's brewing underneaththe surface in any of us.
Yeah, absolutely.
(17:57):
I think, you know how I am rightnow cost me 20 years of therapy.
(laughs)
And a lot of self awareness.
A lot of self work.
Okay.
There's a good reason why I'm a therapist.
You always talk about thetherapist's own wound.
The healer's wound, right?
And so I started my therapeutic journeyat the beginning of my twenties.
(18:17):
That I noticed that, okay, thereseems to be something that I
haven't processed in my life.
So what I did was I started,you know, wondering how did
my past actually shape me?
Mm-hmm.
And this is something that my parentsnever talked about it with me.
So it was not that my parents werelike, oh, you know, we wondering how
all of that might have shaped you.
(18:38):
(laughs) And so I was like, startedtalking about this with my parents
and I started kind of open up a topicthat was silenced within my family.
And I think this is oftenthe case in families.
And once you bring up the awareness,then something shifts inside of you.
(18:59):
And if you know, if you in your journeyand you're wondering why you are anxious
and you know, how come that you findit difficult to trust in yourself, to
trust others in your life, that thereis a part of yours that constantly
makes you feel worry or over a thing.
Then I can highly invite people, becurious, be curious, start asking
(19:20):
questions, question your familypatterns, because often when you grow
up in a traumatic, traumatized family.
You think that that is normal.
You think emotional avoidance is normal.
You don't know anything else,so you assume that's normal.
So most of my clients then, whenthey're then in their first romantic
(19:41):
relationship and they get to knowother families all through friendships,
they wonder like, oh wow, this family.
People show emotions, right?
Yep.
Or they cuddle and they hug andthey gave kisses, or you know,
there's a calmness in their home.
I have a client who was saying thatif he would go to his friend, he would
just feel so calm and when he would comehome, he would already get stressed up.
(20:03):
Right?
And creating that awareness andbeing curious and questioning certain
family patterns and wondering whyit is the way it is, can help you
to soften something inside of you.
But if you not aware of that, thenyou kind of feel anxious and that
anxiety does come out in some ways.
(20:27):
Sometimes in a more extremeway because people are anxious.
Sometimes, as you said, you don't reallynotice that because it's inside of you,
but it does come out in certain ways.
So it's, you know, especially anxietyis something that people also can,
it's something that comes to lifesometimes, even physically, right?
People feel like their heart isbeating and they can be, they're
restless and they always have to dosomething, and there is this part that
(20:49):
is make them worry or overthink a lot.
They can't sleep.
So if you have all of that, thenI would, you know, start to start.
Just open up the silence topic.
Ask your parents, what didyou go through in life?
What did all my grandparentsgo through in life?
Let's talk, let's talk aboutsome, the elephant in the
room that has been avoided.
(21:10):
(laughs)
Yeah, it's, there's, oh boy.
There's about five streetswe could go on from there.
First it's really understandable why somuch of this goes undiagnosed and untalked
about, 'cause it feels normal, right?
But if you do bring it up to your parents,this goes back to our first conversation.
That doesn't always go wellbecause of the families.
(21:35):
A lot of people's wanting to justkeep everything buried and live
under that myth that we're okay.
So don't expect if you bring it up,I would think you would say, right.
Don't expect if you bring it up thatit's gonna be greeted with open arms.
You might be shamed again.
Absolutely.
I would even say expect your parentsnot wanting to talk about it.
(21:57):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yep.
Yep.
I would say even the majority of timesfamilies don't like to face their issues.
Because you know, there's reallysometimes a lot connected to that.
You know, your parents mightnot be able to function if they
open up certain stories, theymight really get re-traumatized.
(22:17):
And so, you know, certain defensemechanisms Mike are necessary for some
people, especially, you know, when youare a bit older and you lived like that
almost your whole life and you don't havethis safe network and the support system.
So if your parents don't have therapistsor other supporters in their life, then
it might shake up a lot inside of them.
(22:39):
So be prepared or reject.
Yeah, they get rejected or prepared thatyour family doesn't want to talk about it.
But what you could do isjust keep, be being curious.
Talk with, you know, I don't know,other family members, cousins, aunts,
or read, you know, about other families.
You know, there are a lot of bookson adult children of emotionally
(23:01):
immature parents, for example.
This is one of those classic booksthat helped people to understand.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, why do I feel solonely in the world?
Why do I feel so ashamed?
Why do I feel so anxious?
So there are a lot of resources,meanwhile, that people can reach out
to, to get a better understandingof their own family system
(23:22):
and wonder what was different.
What did, I mean a goodquestion is, what did I miss?
What were my unmet needs?
And you can start just understanding whatare specific needs that children, you
know, basic emotional needs of children.
Because, you know, most of myclients say like, oh, I had, you
(23:43):
know, my physical needs were met.
I had a house, I had food.
But then they never thoughtabout emotional needs.
So wondering about your ownneeds and you know, wondering
about how your family coped withemotions and et cetera, et cetera.
It's a great place to startand I can highly recommend
anyone who wants to do that.
I mean, thankfully we have a lot goingon around that on social media, online,
(24:07):
there are networks and different kindof groups you can join where people
start sharing their stories andmaybe you see yourself in that story.
Yeah.
You mentioned anxiety a minute ago,and one of the things that you read
in these studies is that people whoexperience PTSD or trauma oftentimes
(24:27):
before depression, suffer from generalanxiety disorder more frequently.
So it manifests itself as anxiety,not necessarily depression.
Yeah.
Well, you know what?
When in a threatening situationand your life is threatened.
There is real danger.
Yeah.
(24:47):
Right.
So you are in a real dangeroussituation and so what happens,
even the danger is gone.
We call it, you know, Bessel van derKolk talks about this in his book.
The Body Keeps the Score.
He talks about the faulty alarm system.
So our brain keeps up faulty alarm system.
(25:10):
So though the alarm isnot really there anymore.
Your body feels in danger andfeels that there is a faulty alarm.
And so your body responds to that withanxiety, with anxiousness, because the
first thing anxiety tells us is Watch out.
The world is not a safe place.
(25:31):
Mm-hmm.
And so it comes alive in form of anxiety,what used to be real danger and fear.
So fear, you know, is kindof like a primary adaptive
emotion when I am in danger.
But if that fear is gone and my body isstill in that fear system, then that can
become, you know, primary maladaptive.
(25:53):
Like it's not helpful anymore.
It's sticking from the past and that'swhat leaves me feeling anxious because
you know, I learned to worry a lot.
I learned to overthink a lot.
I don't trust myselfin my own inner world.
I can't trust others, and thenI get hypervigilant, right?
Okay.
So it's not just the world is unsafe,but then that would transfer to
(26:14):
let's say relationships are unsafeand you began interpreting messages
that are maybe innocuous as uhhuh.
See?
See?
Yeah.
I mean this is one of those things, forexample, that over the last years people
were discovering about adult attachment.
(26:35):
So, you know, the different kindof attachment styles and one of the
mainly anxious attachment is theone that never trust the partner
Because you always wonder if you'regood enough, if you're worthy,
if you can trust your partner.
So there's a lot of anxiety in thatand you respond to that, especially
in your relationships because youknow, we know meanwhile, especially
(26:56):
complex trauma is trauma that hasbeen created within relationships.
And so something that has been kindof developed within relationships,
comes out within relationships, andalso heals within relationships.
So trauma, a complex childhoodtrauma, for example, can be very
(27:17):
relational, is very relational.
And yes, if I can't trust myself becauseI'm not in touch with my emotions,
I'm not in touch with my needs,how can I trust somebody else in my
life, like my partner or my friends?
And so I'm suspicious, andthen it's really hard to have
meaningful relationships andfeel connected to others.
(27:38):
I remember going as a a teenager tosomebody else's house for dinner.
And because of, of the natureof our house, our dinner was
chaotic and tense, right?
And they had this wonderful family dinnerwhere they shared jokes and stories, and
I remember thinking, well, they're weird.
You know, that was because itwas something outside the normal.
(27:59):
So given a relationship, if you'reused to abuse and belittling, you
come across somebody who's healthyand maybe the reaction is the same.
Well, they're weird.
Yeah.
I mean, there is some truth in itthat we say we attract partners that
trigger our childhood wounds, right?
(28:20):
And we choose partners that remind usof our parents until we heal or until
we healing, because there's not, there'snothing such a healed process, right?
Or final state.
And so.
I mean, it says that if you kind of grewup in such a household, you probably.
Yeah, feel attracted to peoplesimilar to your parents.
(28:44):
And if then you're dating someone who'scalmer, that doesn't really feel good
to you because that's actually thenthreatening to your nervous system and
you don't know how to respond to thatbecause you used to something else, but.
Other is also not good for you becauseit triggers your wounds and it makes
you, you know, respond in a way thatyou used to do in your childhood.
(29:07):
It brings up your survivalmechanisms in a very strong way
sometimes, and there is a truth.
What I've been experiencing with myclients is throughout the process
the choices on relationships change.
Even friendships, they oftengrieve a lot of friendships
because they let go of friendships.
They were not good for them,
(29:27):
Right.
And also they changed their partners.
They noticed that I've beentrapped in this relationship.
And because I'm in this relationship,it's been my trauma response, you know?
And then I notice, oh myGod, what am I doing here?
I deserve something better.
I am worthy.
I am lovable.
Right.
I can express my needs,I can be vulnerable.
And then they take that risk andnotice, okay, this is not the
(29:48):
kind of relationship that I reallywant and can give me what I need.
And often the healing processinvolved saying goodbye to many
of your relationships because younotice they were not good for you.
And you were hanging around withthem because of who you were.
Yeah, absolutely.
And because of, probably you werepeople pleasing because you were kind
(30:09):
of, you know, putting your needs aside.
You were not communicatingyour emotions and you were not
good at setting boundaries.
And so when you learn all of that,because you process your trauma,
your own trauma, and those trauma.
The way you felt about yourselfthrough that, and you learn to set
boundaries and you express your needsand you share your inner world, and
you're much more aware of your innerworld and what you want in life.
(30:32):
Not everybody likes that then.
This whole conversation has reminded me.
I know this is gonna sounddumb, of my cat, right?
So I was feeding her the other day and Idid, there was a plastic bag next to her.
And as she's about to eat, I justgrab the plastic bag and it crinkled.
(30:54):
Well, forget about eating.
She jumped.
Now she's been around me for years.
She knows I'm about as leastthreatening as possible, right?
She jumped and walked underneatha table until I cleared the room
so she could go back to eating.
I suppose some people try to train theircats Ghazaleh, but I'm not among them.
(31:16):
For people.
I'll let you have this as your getaway.
Summarize for us again how and and my cat.
That's generational.
Multi, multi, multi-generationalfear response, right?
Anxiety response to loud noise.
How do people get off this?
Because you just identified, the riskis losing friends, irritating family.
(31:44):
The benefit is taking care of yourself.
Where's the first steps?
What do we need to do to get on theroad towards better mental health?
Yeah.
Well, the first step is facing the truth,which is the most painful step, and
acknowledging that there was somethinggoing on in your family that was not
(32:05):
normal, as I mentioned, the awareness.
Yep.
And then the awareness of,so how did it impact me?
So, you know, that means how didit impact my inner world and our
inner world is, you know, where ouremotions are, it's where our needs are.
So oftentimes when I start wantingto start the healing journey, the
(32:27):
first thing I need to explore iswhat do I do with my emotions?
How do I express them?
How do I avoid them?
Because only when I'm truly incontact with my emotions, I realize
that there are certain feelingsthat have a lot of power over me.
I mentioned that in our first video.
We know meanwhile in this approachthat I were in emotion focus therapy,
(32:49):
that there's three major feelingsthat we can bring into our adulthood,
which is loneliness, shame, and fear.
So what was adaptive and primary?
Because I was lonely in my childhood.
I was scared.
I was, you know, I felt ashamed.
Can become maladaptive if Istill always feel ashamed, always
(33:10):
feel lonely, and always feelanxious even though I'm fearful.
So it's starting to acknowledge thosefeelings and giving them some fresh air.
And learning how to find kindness foryourself and learning how to express
healthy, adaptive anger and form ofself-assertion and setting boundaries
is a huge part of the journey.
(33:31):
And yes, Mike, you're right.
That journey can also be a very journeylonely journey because you lose people,
you question decisions in your life.
You know, many of my clients evenchange their jobs because they notice
they're actually doing this becauseit was expected from someone or
because it feels safe, but they'vebeen suppressing their authentic self.
(33:52):
So the more you come in contactwith your emotions and with your
needs, the more you can come incontact with your authenticity.
And then you wonder, really what makesme happy, what is satisfying in my life?
And then you notice that many of thedecisions in your life are not satisfying.
And that's why maybe you're lookingfor the purpose, or you're getting
depressed, or you're drinkingtoo much, or you're partying too
(34:13):
much, or whatever you do, right?
And so, yeah, acknowledging that,okay, I'm gonna go through this
path and it's going to be painful.
It's not going to be easy.
Not everyone will be on my sideand I will lose people in my life.
And knowing that you're doing, youknow, that you kind of taking that
(34:35):
decision for yourself can be alreadyvery empowering because when you do
that, what you have on the other side.
Is more meaningful relationships.
Yes.
Feel more connected toyourself and to others.
You feel more satisfied.
You are more your authentic self, and thatjust feels good to be kind to yourself
(34:56):
and to set boundaries and to assertyourself and know I can protect myself.
It feels good to bethe agent of your life.
So that's the other side of it, right?
And then you then you're less likelyto pass it on to the next generation.
Absolutely.
Actually last year, by the end of the lastyear, I launched an online course, which
(35:19):
is called From Pain to Peace, Heal YourParent Wound, which is exactly about that.
How to start this journey byrecognizing your unmet needs,
recognizing family patterns, and howto do the first steps of healing.
And what I really say in thatcourse is once you started this
course, make sure you have at leastone or two people in your life
(35:40):
that you know you feel safe with.
Because if you don't have anyone and youdo go on this journey completely alone,
it can be sometimes very exhausting.
We are social animals, right?
And so knowing where to reach out to andhaving at least one person in your life
that understands that and is also maybein their healing journey or has been
(36:01):
through this, can be very empowering.
I'm so glad you ended with that becausenow I have a reason to call you up for
part three of this talk about your course.
(laughs)
Yeah, definitely.
Something we can talk about for hours.
That'd be great.
Ghazaleh, thank you somuch for being with us.
You all know there are links to Dr.Bailey's socials and contact information.
(36:24):
Here course you just mentionedattached to the podcast.
Thanks so much for being with ustoday, sharing your work, your
experience, especially your expertise.
For those of you listening, watching,we hope you find help, support wherever
you are from whenever you choose to.
As always, thanks for listening,be safe and choose your own road,
(36:44):
or better yet, choose the stop youget off when you get on the bus.
Welcome everybody.
This is Avoiding the Addiction Affliction,brought to you by Westwords Consulting,
the Kenosha County Substance Use DisorderCoalition, and by a grant from the
state of Wisconsin's Dose of Reality.
Real talks reminding you that opioids arepowerful drugs and that one pill can kill.
I'm Mike McGowan.
A while back, I had the privilegeof having a conversation with our
(00:34):
guest today, Dr. Ghazaleh Bailey.
We talked about toxic trauma, shame andboundaries during that conversation.
Wanna continue that conversation today,extending it to multi-generational
messaging and behavioral patternsand even genetic patterns.
Ghazaleh is a certified therapist,couple therapist, supervisor and
(00:55):
trainer with a PhD in psychology.
She's based in Berlin, Germany, andhas a unique multicultural and approach
that she uses to help people overcomechildhood and generational trauma.
Her work and research is focusedon healing power of emotion,
transformation, and self-compassion.
Welcome back, Ghazaleh.
(01:16):
Hi Mike.
Good to see you again.
Well, I'm thrilled to talk to you again.
Let's catch people up just a little.
The last time we talked about the manychildren who get shaming messages from
their primary caregivers, just to refreshit, parents can bully and belittle their
children and pass on those messages.
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember that conversationand we were talking about those subtle
(01:37):
messages parents can send throughcomparison, comparison of siblings,
comparison with other children.
Oh, look at the other one.
In many different kind of ways, but alsoin direct ways of actually being critical.
Actually, you know, notacknowledging needs.
And not acknowledging emotions,making fun of children, talking
(02:00):
badly about them in front of others.
So there are so manydifferent kind of ways.
Sometimes, you know, intentionally,but many times actually subconsciously
parents can leave children feelingthere is something wrong with you.
And that's the core emotion thatcomes to life when I'm bullied.
It's this deep feeling of, so theremust be something wrong with me.
(02:21):
I mean, we know meanwhile, when childrenget bullied by other children and peers.
The first question they askthemselves is, what's wrong
with me that they don't like me?
Yep.
So it's the same question thatcomes to life that makes them
feel ashamed about themselves.
When parents belittle them or leave themfeeling your needs don't matter, or leave
them feeling, oh, you are the child.
(02:41):
How could you know?
And I'm the parent andI know better than you.
Or, you know, you should justbe quiet or actually let them
know you're not good enough.
And unfortunately, some parents do that.
I mean, I'm sure I always believe parentsgive their best as much as they can,
and sometimes they don't understandhow the language they use can make
(03:05):
children feel awful about themselves.
And that sticks with us, and we carrythat inside our adulthood, and then
we feel worthless and ashamed and thenwe act on it in many different ways.
I was at the grocery store last week andthere's a couple of parents with their
kids there, and right in the middleof the aisle, in front of strangers
(03:26):
one of the parents threatened to whooptheir kid if they continue behavior.
And I thought, okay, one, the first thingthe kid does is cry and look around.
So that's a shaming experience.
And I then I thoughtabout our conversation.
I thought, well.
I bet that parent just passedalong something that they got
(03:46):
when they were kids as well.
Yeah, absolutely.
I had a similar situation witha grandma, so I was in a public
transport with my 4-year-old daughter.
And then the bus stopped andthe little one, there was a
little girl with a grandmother.
The grandmother kind of saidto her, we need to get off.
And the little girl didn't hear her.
(04:07):
You could really see likeshe was in her own world.
She didn't hear the grandma.
And then the grandma startedreally shouting at her.
Grabbed and pulled her out of thebus and told her, are you deaf?
And in a really bad tone.
And my daughter was like, ohmy God, what's happening here?
Right.
And so I was like, so if this is thegrandma, how does her mother talk to her?
(04:30):
Because you know, if this is agrandma talking to her, I guess
that's how she talked to her daughter.
Yep.
And her daughter being her mom.
I guess this is what the little girlis used to, because I think if the
mother would've been a cycle breakerand aware of those pattern, she would
have probably not let the girls spendtime with the grandma like that.
(04:51):
(laughs)
Yeah.
So, you start protecting thenext generation when you have the
awareness of what happened to you.
Well, okay, to use your story.
At some point, some parenthas gotta get off the bus.
For this multi-generational messagingand trauma, we have to make the decision.
(05:12):
Right.
I'm stopping it here.
Mm-hmm.
And you know what?
It starts with that decision.
Yeah.
This is the most powerful decision.
Acknowledging there is somethingwrong in my family system.
And I need to change this andI'm gonna do something different.
Right?
Yeah.
(05:32):
And it's impossible to break allpatterns and not repeat anything and
be the perfect parent and caregiver.
But making that intentional decisionand being so mindful about it shift
so much inside our bodies, insideour nervous system, because we just
act on things in a different way.
We see things in a different way.
(05:53):
We realize things in a different way.
So that intention to say, I am gonnado something different, and it starts
with me and the past ends with me.
Awesome.
The reason that I called you to doanother one is that I was looking
at a study of Holocaust survivors,veterans and trauma victims, and the
(06:14):
incidents of post-traumatic stress.
My first thought is, it's notsurprising that the incidence of PTSD
is higher among those groups, right?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
You know what Mike, maybe it makessense to explain to our listeners
what PTSD actually is, PostTraumatic Stress Disorder, because
it's also one of those terms.
(06:35):
It's been used a lot, but not manypeople know really what it is right?
But everybody uses it, right?
Yeah.
It's like I'm depressed,but what does that mean?
Yeah.
Then you're depressed.
And so, you know, PTSD symptoms usuallydevelop when somebody is exposed to
situations that leaves them feelingincredibly powerless and helpless
(06:58):
and makes it impossible for the humanbeing to cope with that situation.
So that could be a life threateningsituation through, you know,
accidents, natural disasters or waror, you know any kind of situation.
Even watching somebody else beingtraumatized, that leaves the human
being feeling powerless and in threat.
(07:21):
It's a life-threatening situationand I feel powerless and I don't
know how to cope with that.
Mm-hmm.
And so when people are in thesesituations, it doesn't mean that those
stress symptoms, the PTSD symptoms comealive immediately after the trauma.
Sometimes they actually show up weekslater, a month later, or even years later.
(07:43):
And they can show up in so manydifferent kind of ways because sometimes
they show up with hypervigilance,other times they show up with
emotional avoidance and numbing.
Sometimes they show up in formof chronic pain and autoimmune
diseases or other illnesses.
Sometimes they show up becauseI have anxiety or depression.
So the symptoms vary a lot.
(08:04):
So it's sometimes really hardto say what PTSD is, especially
because it rarely comes alone.
It comes in combination withother mental health issues such as
addiction or, you know, self harmor you know, depression or anxiety.
So it's important to really getan understanding of what PTSD
(08:26):
can look like and feel like.
And so oftentimes when people arein immense stress situation like
Holocaust or like there is anotherstudy about pregnant women during
9/11 or people [inaudible], right?
This is like, there are a lot of studiesaround that event and when we are in
(08:47):
stress responses where we feel powerlessand we don't know how to respond to that,
and we are in survival because it's aprolonged traumatic experience and not
only one incident that happens at once.
Then our bodies are in survival.
So what we do first is we try to survive.
(09:08):
We try to kind of go through thistraumatic experience, and that
means that the trauma is moreinternalized by the body because
it's happening repetitively, right?
So it's like when the child.
Has gone through one traumaticexperience is different than when
it goes through complex childhoodtrauma, which means like there is
(09:31):
constant fear at the house, right?
A constant, angry, drunk father,for example, because then the child
goes through extended traumaticexperiences where it feels powerless
and it feels threatened and unsafe.
So the more intense the trauma is,the more difficult it is actually
(09:51):
to recognize that this is trauma.
And yes, the more intense it is, the moreit shapes us and the more it shapes our
soul, our bodies in a biological way,and then we can, we definitely pass it
along faster or more than in, you know,if I go through a situation like a car
(10:12):
accident, which is also a trauma anda traumatic experience, but it might
not shape my identity and my senseof self so much because I had a sense
of self and an identity before that.
Well, okay.
Let's talk about the bodysince you brought that up.
'Cause that was part of the studythat one of the ladies who was a
(10:32):
co-author of the study said that hermom survived the Holocaust, and even
though they moved to America where shealways felt safe, her parents did not.
And so they passed thatfear onto their daughter.
And I was thinking about the parents,like you said, 9/11, the Great Depression,
(10:56):
any war that's gonna happen any time.
And what they found in the study isthat there's epigenetic, there's changes
in some of the gene messages that goforward into the next generation as well.
Yeah.
Well, you know, I'm not a monoculturebiologist, but from what I understand so
far, because it's in a very interestingfield and because, you know, I'm kind of.
(11:17):
I have a lot of clients goingthrough generational trauma.
I also have a lot of Jewish clientswhose parents and their grandparents.
The topic of Holocaust and what they'vebeen through is a life, and I remember
especially one client of mine manyyears ago who always had this fear in
her eyes, and it was not like that herlife was threatened, but her father was
(11:38):
in such an anxious state because hisparents were going through Holocaust.
That whenever she wanted to leavethe house, even go to school, he
would say like, you have to keepyour eyes open and watch out.
So she felt from the beginning of herlife, the world is not a safe place.
And when you know, parents carrythat anxiety inside of them and
(12:02):
it's not about blaming fault, okay?
Then they act on that andthen they give messages.
That leave the child feel okay, watch out.
The world is not safe.
So I grew up with thisanxiousness inside of me.
That's one way through the how parentsrespond, you know, and how they behave
and how this shapes, it's the environment.
(12:22):
The other one is that there arestudies showing that extended long
stressful situations like traumaticexperiences, shape, you know,
can change our gene expression.
That doesn't mean they actuallychange anything in our genetic
code, in our DNA sequence.
That's not what's happening.
(12:43):
But there is this wording that we callepigenetic modification that has to do
with how trauma shapes, how our genesare expressed through the concept of
DNA modulation and the research alsowith the pregnant woman during 9/11
shows that, you know, different kindof traumatic stresses on our body.
(13:05):
Have a great impact on how thismutilation is being kind of going
up or down, and that's what we canalso pass along to the children.
And so the longer the trauma is,the more impact it has on our body.
And there is also, you know, thismethation, especially related
to a specific receptor, theglucocorticoid receptor that is
(13:30):
kind of connected with our cortisol.
So that, that, you know,the [inaudible] receptor.
Kind of has influence on our cortisollevel and cortisol is the stress hormone.
Mm-hmm.
And what, meanwhile for many differentkind of, you know studies is that
trauma has a great response on cortisol.
(13:51):
And I like to bring up anexample, which is myself.
Please.
'Cause I have a very uniqueexperience many years ago.
So my mom was pregnant right after theIran Revolution and during the first
Gulf War, and my mom is a nurse and sheworked in the biggest hospital in Teran.
So she sometimes, you know.
She was telling me that she was highlypregnant and she would see these soldiers
(14:15):
losing arms and you know, she hadto select which arm belongs to which
soldier while her own brother was in war.
And then I was kinda in this, probablyin her stomach and this stress response.
And then I was born and then, you know, myparents decided to leave Germany and I was
going through this traumatic experienceof leaving Iran and coming to Germany.
(14:39):
So I noticed that sometimes it's hardfor me to find calmness inside myself,
though I've been through many years,you know, my own therapeutic journey.
And then a very good friend of minewho specialized in chronic diseases,
he's a doctor, medical doctor,and he was like, you know what?
Let's do a cortisol test with you.
(15:00):
So I did over weeks.
You know, at different times of mylife, I tested my cortisol level.
Mornings when I would wake up, duringthe day, in the evening, and then he
gave me the response that Ghazaleh,your cortisol level is early in
the morning, though there's nothingspecifically going on in your life
that is stressful, higher than somebodyactually in a stressful situation.
(15:24):
So I guess my baseline, my cortisolbaseline is already higher than
other people whose mothers were notgoing through war and who didn't
flee, you know, their home countrywhen they were three years old.
And I guess I have to live with that.
(laughs) But what I dois, I'm aware of it.
I try, I kind of learnto soothe my anxiety.
(15:47):
I learn to calm myself down.
I learn to slow things down in my life,so I can be a calmer parent for my
daughter, right, and kind of help herto feel safer in the world and help
her to feel calmer within herself.
So I think it has a great impact.
You know, trauma, we know meanwhilehas a great biological impact as well.
(16:09):
Not only environmentalor relationship impact.
Do you think you pass someof that on to your daughter?
I don't know.
She's a very highly active personwho, you know, likes to kind of enjoy
life and she was never a good sleeper.
So there was a time in my life where Iwas wondering why is she so restless?
(16:31):
Yes, I could start, blamingmyself or my history or whatever.
But I think, you know, what I didwas I found compassion within myself
that this is not about my fault or mymother's fault or anybody's fault, but
the question is, how can I be there forher in a way that her nervous system
(16:51):
grows up in a calmer environment.
And so it might be that her restlessnessconnected to my higher cortisol level.
And you know, to be honest, I was pregnantduring the first lockdown, which was
quite stressful for everyone, for us.
Oh, absolutely.
Who knows?
So what kind of impactthat had on her, right?
(17:14):
I mean, being pregnant during pandemic,I think many women can relate to that.
It was not the less, I mean it wasa kind of a stressful period for us.
Right.
Absolutely.
Though, you know, I tried my best tomeditate and stay calm and find rest and
soothe myself and all these kind of ways.
I'm sure in some way it impacted her.
(17:36):
What's fascinating about listening toyou tell that is that you come across,
and I know you know this, as a verycomposed, settled, calming influence.
I feel that even when talking toyou, but nobody really knows right.
What's brewing underneaththe surface in any of us.
Yeah, absolutely.
(17:57):
I think, you know how I am rightnow cost me 20 years of therapy.
(laughs)
And a lot of self awareness.
A lot of self work.
Okay.
There's a good reason why I'm a therapist.
You always talk about thetherapist's own wound.
The healer's wound, right?
And so I started my therapeutic journeyat the beginning of my twenties.
(18:17):
That I noticed that, okay, thereseems to be something that I
haven't processed in my life.
So what I did was I started,you know, wondering how did
my past actually shape me?
Mm-hmm.
And this is something that my parentsnever talked about it with me.
So it was not that my parents werelike, oh, you know, we wondering how
all of that might have shaped you.
(18:38):
(laughs) And so I was like, startedtalking about this with my parents
and I started kind of open up a topicthat was silenced within my family.
And I think this is oftenthe case in families.
And once you bring up the awareness,then something shifts inside of you.
(18:59):
And if you know, if you in your journeyand you're wondering why you are anxious
and you know, how come that you findit difficult to trust in yourself, to
trust others in your life, that thereis a part of yours that constantly
makes you feel worry or over a thing.
Then I can highly invite people, becurious, be curious, start asking
(19:20):
questions, question your familypatterns, because often when you grow
up in a traumatic, traumatized family.
You think that that is normal.
You think emotional avoidance is normal.
You don't know anything else,so you assume that's normal.
So most of my clients then, whenthey're then in their first romantic
(19:41):
relationship and they get to knowother families all through friendships,
they wonder like, oh wow, this family.
People show emotions, right?
Yep.
Or they cuddle and they hug andthey gave kisses, or you know,
there's a calmness in their home.
I have a client who was saying thatif he would go to his friend, he would
just feel so calm and when he would comehome, he would already get stressed up.
(20:03):
Right?
And creating that awareness andbeing curious and questioning certain
family patterns and wondering whyit is the way it is, can help you
to soften something inside of you.
But if you not aware of that, thenyou kind of feel anxious and that
anxiety does come out in some ways.
(20:27):
Sometimes in a more extremeway because people are anxious.
Sometimes, as you said, you don't reallynotice that because it's inside of you,
but it does come out in certain ways.
So it's, you know, especially anxietyis something that people also can,
it's something that comes to lifesometimes, even physically, right?
People feel like their heart isbeating and they can be, they're
restless and they always have to dosomething, and there is this part that
(20:49):
is make them worry or overthink a lot.
They can't sleep.
So if you have all of that, thenI would, you know, start to start.
Just open up the silence topic.
Ask your parents, what didyou go through in life?
What did all my grandparentsgo through in life?
Let's talk, let's talk aboutsome, the elephant in the
room that has been avoided.
(21:10):
(laughs)
Yeah, it's, there's, oh boy.
There's about five streetswe could go on from there.
First it's really understandable why somuch of this goes undiagnosed and untalked
about, 'cause it feels normal, right?
But if you do bring it up to your parents,this goes back to our first conversation.
That doesn't always go wellbecause of the families.
(21:35):
A lot of people's wanting to justkeep everything buried and live
under that myth that we're okay.
So don't expect if you bring it up,I would think you would say, right.
Don't expect if you bring it up thatit's gonna be greeted with open arms.
You might be shamed again.
Absolutely.
I would even say expect your parentsnot wanting to talk about it.
(21:57):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yep.
Yep.
I would say even the majority of timesfamilies don't like to face their issues.
Because you know, there's reallysometimes a lot connected to that.
You know, your parents mightnot be able to function if they
open up certain stories, theymight really get re-traumatized.
(22:17):
And so, you know, certain defensemechanisms Mike are necessary for some
people, especially, you know, when youare a bit older and you lived like that
almost your whole life and you don't havethis safe network and the support system.
So if your parents don't have therapistsor other supporters in their life, then
it might shake up a lot inside of them.
(22:39):
So be prepared or reject.
Yeah, they get rejected or prepared thatyour family doesn't want to talk about it.
But what you could do isjust keep, be being curious.
Talk with, you know, I don't know,other family members, cousins, aunts,
or read, you know, about other families.
You know, there are a lot of bookson adult children of emotionally
(23:01):
immature parents, for example.
This is one of those classic booksthat helped people to understand.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, why do I feel solonely in the world?
Why do I feel so ashamed?
Why do I feel so anxious?
So there are a lot of resources,meanwhile, that people can reach out
to, to get a better understandingof their own family system
(23:22):
and wonder what was different.
What did, I mean a goodquestion is, what did I miss?
What were my unmet needs?
And you can start just understanding whatare specific needs that children, you
know, basic emotional needs of children.
Because, you know, most of myclients say like, oh, I had, you
(23:43):
know, my physical needs were met.
I had a house, I had food.
But then they never thoughtabout emotional needs.
So wondering about your ownneeds and you know, wondering
about how your family coped withemotions and et cetera, et cetera.
It's a great place to startand I can highly recommend
anyone who wants to do that.
I mean, thankfully we have a lot goingon around that on social media, online,
(24:07):
there are networks and different kindof groups you can join where people
start sharing their stories andmaybe you see yourself in that story.
Yeah.
You mentioned anxiety a minute ago,and one of the things that you read
in these studies is that people whoexperience PTSD or trauma oftentimes
(24:27):
before depression, suffer from generalanxiety disorder more frequently.
So it manifests itself as anxiety,not necessarily depression.
Yeah.
Well, you know what?
When in a threatening situationand your life is threatened.
There is real danger.
Yeah.
(24:47):
Right.
So you are in a real dangeroussituation and so what happens,
even the danger is gone.
We call it, you know, Bessel van derKolk talks about this in his book.
The Body Keeps the Score.
He talks about the faulty alarm system.
So our brain keeps up faulty alarm system.
(25:10):
So though the alarm isnot really there anymore.
Your body feels in danger andfeels that there is a faulty alarm.
And so your body responds to that withanxiety, with anxiousness, because the
first thing anxiety tells us is Watch out.
The world is not a safe place.
(25:31):
Mm-hmm.
And so it comes alive in form of anxiety,what used to be real danger and fear.
So fear, you know, is kindof like a primary adaptive
emotion when I am in danger.
But if that fear is gone and my body isstill in that fear system, then that can
become, you know, primary maladaptive.
(25:53):
Like it's not helpful anymore.
It's sticking from the past and that'swhat leaves me feeling anxious because
you know, I learned to worry a lot.
I learned to overthink a lot.
I don't trust myselfin my own inner world.
I can't trust others, and thenI get hypervigilant, right?
Okay.
So it's not just the world is unsafe,but then that would transfer to
(26:14):
let's say relationships are unsafeand you began interpreting messages
that are maybe innocuous as uhhuh.
See?
See?
Yeah.
I mean this is one of those things, forexample, that over the last years people
were discovering about adult attachment.
(26:35):
So, you know, the different kindof attachment styles and one of the
mainly anxious attachment is theone that never trust the partner
Because you always wonder if you'regood enough, if you're worthy,
if you can trust your partner.
So there's a lot of anxiety in thatand you respond to that, especially
in your relationships because youknow, we know meanwhile, especially
(26:56):
complex trauma is trauma that hasbeen created within relationships.
And so something that has been kindof developed within relationships,
comes out within relationships, andalso heals within relationships.
So trauma, a complex childhoodtrauma, for example, can be very
(27:17):
relational, is very relational.
And yes, if I can't trust myself becauseI'm not in touch with my emotions,
I'm not in touch with my needs,how can I trust somebody else in my
life, like my partner or my friends?
And so I'm suspicious, andthen it's really hard to have
meaningful relationships andfeel connected to others.
(27:38):
I remember going as a a teenager tosomebody else's house for dinner.
And because of, of the natureof our house, our dinner was
chaotic and tense, right?
And they had this wonderful family dinnerwhere they shared jokes and stories, and
I remember thinking, well, they're weird.
You know, that was because itwas something outside the normal.
(27:59):
So given a relationship, if you'reused to abuse and belittling, you
come across somebody who's healthyand maybe the reaction is the same.
Well, they're weird.
Yeah.
I mean, there is some truth in itthat we say we attract partners that
trigger our childhood wounds, right?
(28:20):
And we choose partners that remind usof our parents until we heal or until
we healing, because there's not, there'snothing such a healed process, right?
Or final state.
And so.
I mean, it says that if you kind of grewup in such a household, you probably.
Yeah, feel attracted to peoplesimilar to your parents.
(28:44):
And if then you're dating someone who'scalmer, that doesn't really feel good
to you because that's actually thenthreatening to your nervous system and
you don't know how to respond to thatbecause you used to something else, but.
Other is also not good for you becauseit triggers your wounds and it makes
you, you know, respond in a way thatyou used to do in your childhood.
(29:07):
It brings up your survivalmechanisms in a very strong way
sometimes, and there is a truth.
What I've been experiencing with myclients is throughout the process
the choices on relationships change.
Even friendships, they oftengrieve a lot of friendships
because they let go of friendships.
They were not good for them,
(29:27):
Right.
And also they changed their partners.
They noticed that I've beentrapped in this relationship.
And because I'm in this relationship,it's been my trauma response, you know?
And then I notice, oh myGod, what am I doing here?
I deserve something better.
I am worthy.
I am lovable.
Right.
I can express my needs,I can be vulnerable.
And then they take that risk andnotice, okay, this is not the
(29:48):
kind of relationship that I reallywant and can give me what I need.
And often the healing processinvolved saying goodbye to many
of your relationships because younotice they were not good for you.
And you were hanging around withthem because of who you were.
Yeah, absolutely.
And because of, probably you werepeople pleasing because you were kind
(30:09):
of, you know, putting your needs aside.
You were not communicatingyour emotions and you were not
good at setting boundaries.
And so when you learn all of that,because you process your trauma,
your own trauma, and those trauma.
The way you felt about yourselfthrough that, and you learn to set
boundaries and you express your needsand you share your inner world, and
you're much more aware of your innerworld and what you want in life.
(30:32):
Not everybody likes that then.
This whole conversation has reminded me.
I know this is gonna sounddumb, of my cat, right?
So I was feeding her the other day and Idid, there was a plastic bag next to her.
And as she's about to eat, I justgrab the plastic bag and it crinkled.
(30:54):
Well, forget about eating.
She jumped.
Now she's been around me for years.
She knows I'm about as leastthreatening as possible, right?
She jumped and walked underneatha table until I cleared the room
so she could go back to eating.
I suppose some people try to train theircats Ghazaleh, but I'm not among them.
(31:16):
For people.
I'll let you have this as your getaway.
Summarize for us again how and and my cat.
That's generational.
Multi, multi, multi-generationalfear response, right?
Anxiety response to loud noise.
How do people get off this?
Because you just identified, the riskis losing friends, irritating family.
(31:44):
The benefit is taking care of yourself.
Where's the first steps?
What do we need to do to get on theroad towards better mental health?
Yeah.
Well, the first step is facing the truth,which is the most painful step, and
acknowledging that there was somethinggoing on in your family that was not
(32:05):
normal, as I mentioned, the awareness.
Yep.
And then the awareness of,so how did it impact me?
So, you know, that means how didit impact my inner world and our
inner world is, you know, where ouremotions are, it's where our needs are.
So oftentimes when I start wantingto start the healing journey, the
(32:27):
first thing I need to explore iswhat do I do with my emotions?
How do I express them?
How do I avoid them?
Because only when I'm truly incontact with my emotions, I realize
that there are certain feelingsthat have a lot of power over me.
I mentioned that in our first video.
We know meanwhile in this approachthat I were in emotion focus therapy,
(32:49):
that there's three major feelingsthat we can bring into our adulthood,
which is loneliness, shame, and fear.
So what was adaptive and primary?
Because I was lonely in my childhood.
I was scared.
I was, you know, I felt ashamed.
Can become maladaptive if Istill always feel ashamed, always
(33:10):
feel lonely, and always feelanxious even though I'm fearful.
So it's starting to acknowledge thosefeelings and giving them some fresh air.
And learning how to find kindness foryourself and learning how to express
healthy, adaptive anger and form ofself-assertion and setting boundaries
is a huge part of the journey.
(33:31):
And yes, Mike, you're right.
That journey can also be a very journeylonely journey because you lose people,
you question decisions in your life.
You know, many of my clients evenchange their jobs because they notice
they're actually doing this becauseit was expected from someone or
because it feels safe, but they'vebeen suppressing their authentic self.
(33:52):
So the more you come in contactwith your emotions and with your
needs, the more you can come incontact with your authenticity.
And then you wonder, really what makesme happy, what is satisfying in my life?
And then you notice that many of thedecisions in your life are not satisfying.
And that's why maybe you're lookingfor the purpose, or you're getting
depressed, or you're drinkingtoo much, or you're partying too
(34:13):
much, or whatever you do, right?
And so, yeah, acknowledging that,okay, I'm gonna go through this
path and it's going to be painful.
It's not going to be easy.
Not everyone will be on my sideand I will lose people in my life.
And knowing that you're doing, youknow, that you kind of taking that
(34:35):
decision for yourself can be alreadyvery empowering because when you do
that, what you have on the other side.
Is more meaningful relationships.
Yes.
Feel more connected toyourself and to others.
You feel more satisfied.
You are more your authentic self, and thatjust feels good to be kind to yourself
(34:56):
and to set boundaries and to assertyourself and know I can protect myself.
It feels good to bethe agent of your life.
So that's the other side of it, right?
And then you then you're less likelyto pass it on to the next generation.
Absolutely.
Actually last year, by the end of the lastyear, I launched an online course, which
(35:19):
is called From Pain to Peace, Heal YourParent Wound, which is exactly about that.
How to start this journey byrecognizing your unmet needs,
recognizing family patterns, and howto do the first steps of healing.
And what I really say in thatcourse is once you started this
course, make sure you have at leastone or two people in your life
(35:40):
that you know you feel safe with.
Because if you don't have anyone and youdo go on this journey completely alone,
it can be sometimes very exhausting.
We are social animals, right?
And so knowing where to reach out to andhaving at least one person in your life
that understands that and is also maybein their healing journey or has been
(36:01):
through this, can be very empowering.
I'm so glad you ended with that becausenow I have a reason to call you up for
part three of this talk about your course.
(laughs)
Yeah, definitely.
Something we can talk about for hours.
That'd be great.
Ghazaleh, thank you somuch for being with us.
You all know there are links to Dr.Bailey's socials and contact information.
(36:24):
Here course you just mentionedattached to the podcast.
Thanks so much for being with ustoday, sharing your work, your
experience, especially your expertise.
For those of you listening, watching,we hope you find help, support wherever
you are from whenever you choose to.
As always, thanks for listening,be safe and choose your own road,
(36:44):
or better yet, choose the stop youget off when you get on the bus.
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