February 12, 2025 • 29 mins
Tom LaGrave is a former Navy SEAL. His military career ended due to drug use. After a recovery program, he set out on a new journey. It began with his working with adolescents, then a return to higher education, and finally licensure as a Licensed Clinical Social Worker. He is the author of a new book, called “Special Welfare . Social Warfare,” which pulls together all of his many years of experience, giving a roadmap of hope, especially to younger people. Tom and his socials can be found at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tjlagravejr/. More information about the Honor Bound Academy can be found at Honor Bound Academy
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike (00:12):
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction, brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
Tom LaGrave is in recovery and hasbeen sober for many, many years.
He is living proof that hope exists.
Mr.
LaGrave is a former Navy SEAL.
(00:32):
His military career, though,ended due to drug use.
After a recovery program,he set out on a new journey.
It began with him working withadolescents, then a return to higher
education, and finally licensure asa licensed clinical social worker.
He is the author of a new book calledSpecial Warfare Social Warfare,
which pulls together all of his manyyears of experience, giving a hope,
(00:55):
especially to those who are younger.
Welcome, Tom.
Tom (01:00):
Thank you, Michael.
Pleasure to be here.
Mike (01:02):
Yeah, I want to get to the book and your Honor Bound Academy in a
few minutes, but you joined the Navy.
Did I get this right,right out of high school?
Tom (01:09):
No, I actually went to college for a year and then from there
ended up going in the military.
Mike (01:15):
And from the Navy, tell us about how the Navy SEALs came about?
Tom (01:19):
Okay, so let's start with my addiction at the age of 14.
Mike (01:22):
Oh yes, please.
Yeah.
Tom (01:24):
So it starts there and it was experimentation or addiction.
For me, it was addiction.
And so I, as shared, I went to St.
Mary's College right out of highschool with a football scholarship
and did not realize that Iwas supposed to go to school.
I just went there to play footballand got put on academic probation,
(01:45):
lost the scholarship, which meant Ihad to go back to my parents home.
And from there, at thatpoint I'm not willing to live
under the rules of my father.
And so I decided the best way tofind my way out of the home is to
have something that's legitimate.
1979.
So Vietnam just ended in 1975.
(02:08):
Nobody wanted to go in the military.
And I'm like, well, let'smake something of it.
Always wanted to be a doctor.
So I went wanting to be in theNavy as a hospital corpsman.
So I end up in boot camp and find out inthe third week you can take a screening
test to become a Navy SEAL and I'mlike, yeah, well, let's try it out.
I went and I passed and ended up onthe Silver Strand starting BUDS, basic
(02:32):
underwater demolition SEAL training,on August the 27th, 1979, graduating
class 106, February 29th, 1980.
And then went to the teens.
And here's the thing is at14, my addiction came with me.
I did not find it in the military.
I did not find it in college.
(02:54):
It was part of me.
So that wonderful career thatstarted out in 1980 by 1988,
89 I'm being discharged for drug use.
Mike (03:04):
Wow.
Tom (03:04):
And my world crashes.
Mike (03:07):
Well, go backwards.
At 14, what were you using?
I'm going to assume alcohol.
Tom (03:11):
Okay, so here's the thing is, I graduated from high
school in 1977, Led Zeppelin.
All that we had was reallynot very good marijuana, and
it was called Crosstop Speed.
They were little white pills,and that's all that there was.
So it wasn't like you're beingoverwhelmed with what is out there
(03:31):
today, and what brought an endto my career was crystal meth.
So that's the story of the beginningat 14, alcohol, marijuana, a few Cross
Tops to just literally being a garbagecan taking and doing anything that
could change the way I was feeling.
Mike (03:52):
The SEALS training is legendarily difficult.
Tom (03:57):
Yes.
Well, here's the thing is from myperspective, and this is only me saying
it is you do not create SEALS, we'reborn and what it is, those that have
the capacity and I'm not the only one.
I went to school with really goodathletes that I don't doubt could
have graduated as I did, but you hadto have been given the opportunity.
(04:20):
Nobody going in at that timewas going to go in the military.
And then they did not knowanything about special forces.
So at that point, I'mjust following my bliss.
Mike (04:33):
How did they discover the addiction?
Tom (04:36):
Okay, so in the beginning, I went into the military under the Carter
administration and within the year,it was the Reagan administration.
During this time, the military was...
morale was horrible.
There was an incident in the desertwith trying to get the hostages in Iran
and that was the catalyst that changed.
(05:00):
Ronald Reagan saying, okay, we'regoing zero tolerance and we're
going to rebuild the military.
And what you see today is that product.
And so that was in the earlydays, there was no urinalysis.
There was no cuttingyour hair to look at it.
And it came about as I was already in themilitary, as I was already in the teams.
(05:22):
And the thing with it is when it firstcame out, I was a hospital corpsman.
So the command would get the noticethat we're going to do a urinalysis.
They would call me, get the bottles ready.
So I knew ahead of time and was ableto maneuver and make sure that I and
anyone else wasn't going to come up hot.
But push that down nine yearsand now the drug is crystal meth.
(05:46):
And the problem with that is.
It destroys.
I went to sleep and woke up three dayslater and in the military that's called
unauthorized absence and at that pointI was not in control of anything that
was from that point on and I was givena urinalysis and at this point I came
(06:07):
up hot and it was zero tolerance so Iwas discharged from SEAL Team 1 in 1988.
Mike (06:16):
Prior to that, in your book, you talk about during the SEALS training, the
easiest thing to do is ringing the bell.
Tom (06:23):
Yeah.
So, what is trying to be done is, theclass started with 110 individuals.
And from that 110, we graduated withactually a rather large class of 55.
And what it comes down to is inthat six month period, there's three
phases, first, second, and third.
(06:44):
And the easiest thing you can doat any time is in the corner of the
compound at basic underwater demolitionSEAL training, there's a bell.
And if you go and ring it, you takeoff your helmet, you put it on the
ground and you're out of there.
And that's it that fast.
No do overs.
Mike (07:01):
No questions asked.
Tom (07:03):
No questions asked.
And so, for me, that was the challenge.
No matter what you did to me, no matterwhere you put me, I was not going to quit.
And that was how that dynamic of,never giving up comes in because the
class made it through, you make itthrough and that's what we all have in
(07:27):
common was that training and that bell.
Mike (07:31):
Yeah, the reason I bring that up is because that's extremely difficult
and then when you get discharged becauseof the crystal meth, you had to go
through a pretty serious period of timeof self reflection and disappointment.
Tom (07:45):
You know what, self reflection came later.
I literally was, I am 6'3", 210 pounds.
When I was discharged,I was 6'3", 165 pounds.
Mike (07:57):
Wow.
Wow.
Tom (07:59):
It is what happens.
I don't care who you are.
That drug is going to devastate you.
And so from that perspective, as Iwas discharged, I lost my identity.
I lost my sense of self.
And it's a scary place when that iswhat happened because I ended back
(08:20):
up in the civilian world, which I hadnever experienced because I went from
high school, college, just beginningto understand the adult world and
then into the military, which is acompletely different way of living life.
Mike (08:35):
You got your feet back under you though.
Tom (08:37):
Yeah, and I went to a recovery facility.
It was called Project 90,90 days and 90 meetings.
And the thing with that is itbroke the physical addiction,
but living life, I was clueless.
And at the end of a year, I was atthat place where I'm not sure that
I'm going to be able to make it.
(08:58):
I'm not sure that I'm goingto be able to not quit using.
And so I came up with...
In the recovery facility, I'm told,and I would share with anybody that's
in the same circumstance, whatever theissues that brought you to that use of
drugs has a story back in childhood.
And what you need to do is go backthere and figure out what it was.
(09:21):
And for me, I was not able to go and seewhat was there, nor was I able to feel.
Because in the military, theyshut off all those emotions and
then the drugs on top of it.
So the bane of all men isexperiencing our emotions.
And that was the way it was forme that I was able to do that.
(09:44):
I went and took a job as an overnightcounselor at an adolescent recovery
facility, ages 13 to 17, where Iwas able to watch youth at the age
I was when I began that process.
And then what I didn't have at thatage was that recovery facility.
And seeing that in bringing themthrough the way of changing their
(10:13):
attitudes from use to non use, theyhad to go inside and come to terms
with dark secrets that all humans have.
And I was watching them dothat and I hadn't done it.
My program was a 12 stepprogram, fourth and fifth step.
I was not able to go in andshare that darkness because
(10:38):
I didn't have the strength.
I didn't have the courage.
I didn't want to face that.
And now I'm looking at a 13, 14 yearold doing it and I feel like a coward.
And in that I found my way becauseof the strength and character of
those young people and finally foundmy way into the emotional realm,
(11:00):
which is for me, the spiritual realm.
And I went and did that deep diveto find the darkness from my past.
Mike (11:10):
And you had the strength to, when you wanted to get to where you wanted
to go, you had to go back to school.
Tom (11:17):
Working with these kids, I lost my purpose and meaning when I was
discharged and found it working withyouth and not only found it, but found
that I had a talent and an abilitybecause young people responded to me.
So I am highly educated military, but thateducation has no civilian counterpart.
(11:39):
So at that stage, I didn't want to goback to school because I didn't feel
as though I needed to because therewas still a lack of humility in me.
Long story short is I got past myself.
I saw that what was happening withyouth where they were coming to me and
(11:59):
sharing things with me and I didn'thave answers and that was unacceptable.
And because of that, I returnedBachelor's, Master's, Licensed Board
Certification, and now 35 yearsof experience with young people
and all people across the board.
Mike (12:16):
And you talk in your book, I think rather eloquently, about the
society we live in right now beingdivided into the me's and the we's.
Tom (12:25):
Actually it's the haves and the have nots that are
representing themselves right now.
And I don't think that the country isaware of what's going to come on Monday,
but the fact of the matter is i'm doingthis and I wrote that book so that I
could get into the public eye so thatI could do one thing and that it is to
(12:45):
let our youth know that I seek to be anadvocate for them and I am not asking
them to trust me because I found thattrust was the one thing that you had to
have if you're going to work with youth.
Mike (12:57):
Yes.
Tom (12:58):
And all that I'm saying is, I'm not asking you to trust me.
I'm asking for the opportunityto earn your trust.
And on and on I come, and right nowsitting with you, able to share this
story and let them see me and know me.
Because on Monday, everybody'sgonna wake up to a brand new world.
Mike (13:16):
Yeah, we're recording this just before the inauguration, by the way.
What does trust looklike to an adolescent?
Tom (13:24):
Every time you say you're going to do something, let's move up.
I'm in the Boys and Girls Club.
I'm a unit director.
The Boys and Girls Clubhas six core areas.
There's nature, there's education,there's athletics, there's
leadership, there's all these things.
I am running that, and during the summerwe have field trips, and so if you tell a
(13:49):
young person that, yes, tomorrow at eighto'clock I'm going to be here, and in this
form was, I opened that club during thesummer at eight o'clock in the morning and
stayed open until eight o'clock at night.
And they saw that every time I said Iwas going to do something, I did it.
There is the trust.
You can't say trust me.
(14:10):
Those are just words.
As am I sitting here over and over sayingto you that I'm looking to earn your trust
over time, proving to you that my wordis my bond and that I am trustworthy.
And if we can get to thatplace, then we have a chance.
Mike (14:26):
Over my career, Tom, you and I have done very much the same stuff.
It has always been one of myirritants that I'm going to
get a little soapboxy here.
When workers, people who work with youthcancel meetings, don't follow through
on what they say they're going to do.
They're certainly used tothat in the court system.
And as you just said, they're coming,the kids we're talking about, are
(14:49):
coming to you and us having a lifetimeof adults not follow through so
that they got a built in not trust.
So it's essential, right?
8am means I'm there.
The door's open.
Tom (15:04):
Absolutely.
And you hit it on the head becausethat's the key element that you are what
you say you are in the eyes of youth.
And because I had established that...
When in recovery, we have torelearn how to do everything.
And one of those things is beinghealthy and joyful with experiences.
(15:29):
Say, you know, walks or workingout and all of those things
what we would call playing.
Now, how an adult plays is notthe same as how a kid plays.
And if you're working with kids oryouth and you want to play with them,
you have to play like they play.
And that was what I learned fromthem was how to play like a kid.
(15:54):
And because of it, there wasthe beginning of the bond that
allowed for the conversations.
What's an example of that?
I had trees on the property of theBoys and Girls Club, and you'd see kids
trying to get up and climb the trees.
And I'd go up and climbthe tree with them.
Mike (16:13):
(laugh)
Tom (16:14):
They got this adult supposedly, you know, mature and he's climbing
actually to the very top and.
You know what?
You set the example, again, not bywhat you tell youth, it's by what
you are in your actions with them.
Mike (16:32):
Yeah, I'm laughing because I've told this story I think once before on
here, but I got called on the carpetat a treatment center I worked with for
during a drought, we had a rainstorm.
Not just allowing the kidsto go outside in the rain.
But going out with them and we hada blast and it was probably one of
the most therapeutic things and Igot chewed out for it, but I would
do it again and again and again.
(16:54):
You use a term in your book I'm gonnaborrow by the way, because I love it.
Called yourself a clinicaltroubleshooter, that's a great term.
What does that mean to you
Tom (17:05):
As it stands right now.
I am at the end of my career.
I just turned 65.
I've been in this world of recovery andactually not recovery, but the clinical.
And from where I sit, I went to getall that knowledge because, again,
a youth comes up and has in thatmoment, a devastating circumstance,
(17:30):
and they're coming to you forhelp and not having an answer.
That was the driving factor.
And so at this stage, I have immersedmyself in understanding everything that
it is that is necessary, not for youth,but for all humanity, when I do what I do.
Mike (17:50):
Yeah.
Tom (17:51):
At this stage I no longer go to a brick and mortar place.
I am in my home, in the back room,doing these interviews and I have
got it down to, I work two daysa week, Tuesdays and Thursdays.
I do clinical and then Friday, Saturday,Sunday, Monday, and Wednesday, I play.
(18:11):
And in that, it is, right now, my abilityto give back and have the time, and most
importantly, have the knowledge up herefrom all those experiences that I can
be profoundly effective because as wespeak what happens Monday, it's the the
(18:32):
adult world that I'm not concerned about.
I'm concerned about our youthand the reason is because youth
don't listen to what we say.
They watch us for what we do and they havebeen watching for the last year a nation
that will not talk with one another, thatis fearful and angry, and is going to
(18:54):
manifest on Monday in ways that truly aregoing to devastate the adult population,
and our youth are looking for us foranswers, and they're seeing us be insane.
Mike (19:05):
Yeah.
Tom (19:05):
So, my grounding at this part is to be available to them starting Monday.
Mike (19:12):
And you're also giving back.
Talk about the Honor Bound Academy.
Tom (19:18):
So I looked at, and the book is written from the perspective
of adolescent to adulthood.
At the very bottom is, youknow, adolescent to adulthood,
we all have that transition.
And I told the story of thegeneration that was the greatest,
generation that is silent, boomer,and all those other generations.
(19:41):
And what I had in my youth that was inthe form of a rite of passage, I came
to understand watching and workingwith youth that no longer exists.
And that is the creation in that bookof having a program that's called Honor
Bound Academy that explains in a oneyear program how to instill all the
(20:03):
lessons that they're missing right now.
And the reason that it's in the book, isfor the last 10 years I've attempted to
get funding and was unable to and was notwilling to not have that body of knowledge
and information just go to naught.
So my idea is I'll write a book, tell thestory, my story, our story, youth story
(20:28):
over generations, and then put it at theend with somebody perhaps in the future
finding it and having the wherewithalfinancially to be able to bring it on or
somebody right now saying, I'll fund that.
Mike (20:43):
We fund a lot of stuff.
Tom (20:45):
Yeah.
Mike (20:46):
And you know as you lay out the program, that kind of structured
program that transitions somebodyfrom childhood to young, through
adolescence, to young adulthood.
If you complete a program like that, thestatistics are unbelievably undeniable.
You have a great success rate movingforward if you don't ring the bell.
Tom (21:11):
And so the thing with it is, is I'm not looking to create
little special forces people, youknow, I built this thing for every
kid, the kid that's overweight andsits in the corner all by himself.
To the one that can't sit still.
And understand this to that it'screated that I'm seeking funding so
(21:34):
nobody has to pay to experience it.
I don't believe you need to pay for this.
This is something thatwe're supposed to give you.
And so understanding that perspectiveis at this point with the program
having not been able to run actually toprove, you know, merit that it works.
In it, I have to give you thedignity and the character and
(21:59):
the choice to quit if you want.
Now I'm going to make that verydifficult on you because I'm not going
to give up on you, but at some pointthere are some folks that their path
is going to take them to places thatwe see that we would rather they not
go, but that is their life destiny.
(22:19):
That's what they're meant to do.
So at that point, I will ask you toleave or I will show you the door
with an understanding of givingyou the information on an exit plan
to but to say that nobody quits.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I need you to be happy.
(22:40):
I need you to have that as a choice and Iwill respect it if you so choose to quit.
Mike (22:46):
Yeah.
Since you work with kids all the timeand have, we're experiencing a mental
health crisis among adolescents now thatwe literally have not, we haven't seen.
And so what I liked about your layingout the program was you take time saying,
look, we're going to address some ofthese, how to take care of yourself, how
to problem solve, how to deal with youremotions, how to cope with those things.
(23:08):
Cause Tom, we're not seeing thosemodeled in our society anymore.
Tom (23:12):
Exactly.
So I've got a couple of youngpeople that I'm seeing right now
on those Tuesdays and Thursdays.
They're in their mid 20s.
And what I'm seeking in HonorBound Academy is to incorporate
an internal nexus, a stability anda belief system within you that
you put there and that you trust.
(23:34):
And if that's not there, as it is with acouple of the folks I'm dealing with right
now, I am at a loss as to how to help.
All that it is is, what happenswith that type of individual, they
find themselves so frustrated thateverything is somebody else's fault.
And they want to, in myinteraction with them, have me
(23:58):
tell them, you're not worth it.
I can't help you.
I'm not going to deal with this.
I know that's what they're doing.
And so what I do is I'mnever going to give up.
I'm saying, look, I'm not exactlysure what I'm going to do with you.
But next week at this time, I'm goingto call you again and try again,
because I'm not going to give up on you.
And in that, that's a stabilizing factor.
(24:20):
I still don't know what the answer is,but they will answer the phone next week.
And as long as I can keep inserting overand over, no matter what they say, I give
you a suggestion, you give me an excuse.
You know what?
That's okay.
I'll do that until we're blue in the face.
(24:42):
So bring it.
Mike (24:44):
I don't think and I bet you agree with this.
I don't think we sacrifice ourmasculinity moving forward by being
able to cope with our own emotionsor express them for that matter.
But we're seeing a swingback in that direction.
You and I grew up in the suck itup, be a man generation, which
was, you know, bury your feelings.
Not very productive in relationships.
Tom (25:04):
You want to cry, I'll give you something to cry about.
Mike (25:06):
(laugh) God, how many times we heard that, right?
Rub some dirt on it, Tom.
(laugh)
Tom (25:13):
And this right now is a whole generation and more than a generation.
You know, we've got Y and Z.
Y is 30s.
Z is 20.
And the alphas are coming now.
They are in high school and middleschool and elementary school
(25:34):
and they're missing out on...
Again, I will say it over and over again.
I have never successfullyspoken to someone and gave them
an answer to their problem.
I have always gone into the individualand found the answer within them that
(25:54):
they can't find, and we bring it up andout, and then, because we've worked it
there, I ask them, is this who you are?
Is this real?
And if the answer is yes, then wecan move forward, because they said,
I brought that there, I acknowledgethat, I believe in it, internal nexus.
(26:16):
Life will throw you for aloop, but you know what?
You learn to handle it now, and you canuse this for every time here on out.
What are we going to do witha generation between birth and
29 right now that are flailing?
And nobody is talking and nobody is goingto say, I'll stand up and I'll help.
(26:42):
I will volunteer.
And so if no one else isgoing to do it, I will.
Mike (26:48):
What is your, if you flash forward, what's your ideal outcome
for young men in our society?
Where do you see them going?
And I'll give you a go away after that.
Tom (26:58):
To be perfectly honest with you, I really don't know what's coming.
And so I have to adapt to what Isee and experience to know what
direction we're going to take.
And my military career and my professionalcareer have put me in a position to
be able to not have the answer andknow in the moment that I can find
something and we'll make it work.
(27:21):
And right now, all that I can say is,to a generation of youth, no matter
where it takes us, no matter where wego, I'm going to be there with you.
Mike (27:29):
Outstanding.
Do you think we canchange the Me to the We?,
Can we bridge that gapthat is so wide right now?
Tom (27:38):
Yes.
So Margaret Mead years ago said,don't ever underestimate the
small group of individuals who arededicated to changing the societal
norms and do not underestimate them.
I don't need an army.
I just need a group of individuals whoare willing to give everything and in
(28:02):
showing our youth that we will do thatfor them, then yeah, I believe that
there are circumstances that can changefor the betterment for many individuals.
Mike (28:14):
I do too, Tom.
You know, happiness is so muchof a better model for living
your life than disease, right?
And optimism is so muchbetter than the opposite.
The book is Special Welfare SocialWelfare, and what I like about the last
part where we talked about the HonorBound Academy is it's a really nice guide
for am I doing this with my own kids?
(28:36):
Am I doing this with the peoplethat I know working with?
Tom, thanks so much for your time andyour efforts over the career and for
being willing to share your story.
Appreciate it.
Tom (28:46):
Yeah, and to have a you know, a like individual that we've, you
know, we're out here, Michael.
Mike (28:52):
Yeah, we are.
Tom (28:53):
We are here.
Now, if I could justshare I have a website.
TheHonorBoundAcademy.orgTheHonorBoundAcademy.org will take you
to my website where you'll see everythingthat I am, including all the various types
of social media platforms and everythingthat I am and everything that I espouse,
including on a regular basis submittingmore information in the form of stories.
(29:18):
You can find me and it atthehonorboundacademy.org and I appreciate
you for giving me this opportunity.
Mike (29:25):
Hey, it's great.
I appreciate you.
And those of you who listen regularlyknow that there are links on the
blurb for Tom's book, his socialsfor the Honor Bound Academy.
Please go to them.
For those of you listening andwatching I hope you find hope
wherever you are listening.
Be safe.
And keep moving forward,regardless of what Monday brings.
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction, brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
Tom LaGrave is in recovery and hasbeen sober for many, many years.
He is living proof that hope exists.
Mr.
LaGrave is a former Navy SEAL.
(00:32):
His military career, though,ended due to drug use.
After a recovery program,he set out on a new journey.
It began with him working withadolescents, then a return to higher
education, and finally licensure asa licensed clinical social worker.
He is the author of a new book calledSpecial Warfare Social Warfare,
which pulls together all of his manyyears of experience, giving a hope,
(00:55):
especially to those who are younger.
Welcome, Tom.
Tom (01:00):
Thank you, Michael.
Pleasure to be here.
Mike (01:02):
Yeah, I want to get to the book and your Honor Bound Academy in a
few minutes, but you joined the Navy.
Did I get this right,right out of high school?
Tom (01:09):
No, I actually went to college for a year and then from there
ended up going in the military.
Mike (01:15):
And from the Navy, tell us about how the Navy SEALs came about?
Tom (01:19):
Okay, so let's start with my addiction at the age of 14.
Mike (01:22):
Oh yes, please.
Yeah.
Tom (01:24):
So it starts there and it was experimentation or addiction.
For me, it was addiction.
And so I, as shared, I went to St.
Mary's College right out of highschool with a football scholarship
and did not realize that Iwas supposed to go to school.
I just went there to play footballand got put on academic probation,
(01:45):
lost the scholarship, which meant Ihad to go back to my parents home.
And from there, at thatpoint I'm not willing to live
under the rules of my father.
And so I decided the best way tofind my way out of the home is to
have something that's legitimate.
1979.
So Vietnam just ended in 1975.
(02:08):
Nobody wanted to go in the military.
And I'm like, well, let'smake something of it.
Always wanted to be a doctor.
So I went wanting to be in theNavy as a hospital corpsman.
So I end up in boot camp and find out inthe third week you can take a screening
test to become a Navy SEAL and I'mlike, yeah, well, let's try it out.
I went and I passed and ended up onthe Silver Strand starting BUDS, basic
(02:32):
underwater demolition SEAL training,on August the 27th, 1979, graduating
class 106, February 29th, 1980.
And then went to the teens.
And here's the thing is at14, my addiction came with me.
I did not find it in the military.
I did not find it in college.
(02:54):
It was part of me.
So that wonderful career thatstarted out in 1980 by 1988,
89 I'm being discharged for drug use.
Mike (03:04):
Wow.
Tom (03:04):
And my world crashes.
Mike (03:07):
Well, go backwards.
At 14, what were you using?
I'm going to assume alcohol.
Tom (03:11):
Okay, so here's the thing is, I graduated from high
school in 1977, Led Zeppelin.
All that we had was reallynot very good marijuana, and
it was called Crosstop Speed.
They were little white pills,and that's all that there was.
So it wasn't like you're beingoverwhelmed with what is out there
(03:31):
today, and what brought an endto my career was crystal meth.
So that's the story of the beginningat 14, alcohol, marijuana, a few Cross
Tops to just literally being a garbagecan taking and doing anything that
could change the way I was feeling.
Mike (03:52):
The SEALS training is legendarily difficult.
Tom (03:57):
Yes.
Well, here's the thing is from myperspective, and this is only me saying
it is you do not create SEALS, we'reborn and what it is, those that have
the capacity and I'm not the only one.
I went to school with really goodathletes that I don't doubt could
have graduated as I did, but you hadto have been given the opportunity.
(04:20):
Nobody going in at that timewas going to go in the military.
And then they did not knowanything about special forces.
So at that point, I'mjust following my bliss.
Mike (04:33):
How did they discover the addiction?
Tom (04:36):
Okay, so in the beginning, I went into the military under the Carter
administration and within the year,it was the Reagan administration.
During this time, the military was...
morale was horrible.
There was an incident in the desertwith trying to get the hostages in Iran
and that was the catalyst that changed.
(05:00):
Ronald Reagan saying, okay, we'regoing zero tolerance and we're
going to rebuild the military.
And what you see today is that product.
And so that was in the earlydays, there was no urinalysis.
There was no cuttingyour hair to look at it.
And it came about as I was already in themilitary, as I was already in the teams.
(05:22):
And the thing with it is when it firstcame out, I was a hospital corpsman.
So the command would get the noticethat we're going to do a urinalysis.
They would call me, get the bottles ready.
So I knew ahead of time and was ableto maneuver and make sure that I and
anyone else wasn't going to come up hot.
But push that down nine yearsand now the drug is crystal meth.
(05:46):
And the problem with that is.
It destroys.
I went to sleep and woke up three dayslater and in the military that's called
unauthorized absence and at that pointI was not in control of anything that
was from that point on and I was givena urinalysis and at this point I came
(06:07):
up hot and it was zero tolerance so Iwas discharged from SEAL Team 1 in 1988.
Mike (06:16):
Prior to that, in your book, you talk about during the SEALS training, the
easiest thing to do is ringing the bell.
Tom (06:23):
Yeah.
So, what is trying to be done is, theclass started with 110 individuals.
And from that 110, we graduated withactually a rather large class of 55.
And what it comes down to is inthat six month period, there's three
phases, first, second, and third.
(06:44):
And the easiest thing you can doat any time is in the corner of the
compound at basic underwater demolitionSEAL training, there's a bell.
And if you go and ring it, you takeoff your helmet, you put it on the
ground and you're out of there.
And that's it that fast.
No do overs.
Mike (07:01):
No questions asked.
Tom (07:03):
No questions asked.
And so, for me, that was the challenge.
No matter what you did to me, no matterwhere you put me, I was not going to quit.
And that was how that dynamic of,never giving up comes in because the
class made it through, you make itthrough and that's what we all have in
(07:27):
common was that training and that bell.
Mike (07:31):
Yeah, the reason I bring that up is because that's extremely difficult
and then when you get discharged becauseof the crystal meth, you had to go
through a pretty serious period of timeof self reflection and disappointment.
Tom (07:45):
You know what, self reflection came later.
I literally was, I am 6'3", 210 pounds.
When I was discharged,I was 6'3", 165 pounds.
Mike (07:57):
Wow.
Wow.
Tom (07:59):
It is what happens.
I don't care who you are.
That drug is going to devastate you.
And so from that perspective, as Iwas discharged, I lost my identity.
I lost my sense of self.
And it's a scary place when that iswhat happened because I ended back
(08:20):
up in the civilian world, which I hadnever experienced because I went from
high school, college, just beginningto understand the adult world and
then into the military, which is acompletely different way of living life.
Mike (08:35):
You got your feet back under you though.
Tom (08:37):
Yeah, and I went to a recovery facility.
It was called Project 90,90 days and 90 meetings.
And the thing with that is itbroke the physical addiction,
but living life, I was clueless.
And at the end of a year, I was atthat place where I'm not sure that
I'm going to be able to make it.
(08:58):
I'm not sure that I'm goingto be able to not quit using.
And so I came up with...
In the recovery facility, I'm told,and I would share with anybody that's
in the same circumstance, whatever theissues that brought you to that use of
drugs has a story back in childhood.
And what you need to do is go backthere and figure out what it was.
(09:21):
And for me, I was not able to go and seewhat was there, nor was I able to feel.
Because in the military, theyshut off all those emotions and
then the drugs on top of it.
So the bane of all men isexperiencing our emotions.
And that was the way it was forme that I was able to do that.
(09:44):
I went and took a job as an overnightcounselor at an adolescent recovery
facility, ages 13 to 17, where Iwas able to watch youth at the age
I was when I began that process.
And then what I didn't have at thatage was that recovery facility.
And seeing that in bringing themthrough the way of changing their
(10:13):
attitudes from use to non use, theyhad to go inside and come to terms
with dark secrets that all humans have.
And I was watching them dothat and I hadn't done it.
My program was a 12 stepprogram, fourth and fifth step.
I was not able to go in andshare that darkness because
(10:38):
I didn't have the strength.
I didn't have the courage.
I didn't want to face that.
And now I'm looking at a 13, 14 yearold doing it and I feel like a coward.
And in that I found my way becauseof the strength and character of
those young people and finally foundmy way into the emotional realm,
(11:00):
which is for me, the spiritual realm.
And I went and did that deep diveto find the darkness from my past.
Mike (11:10):
And you had the strength to, when you wanted to get to where you wanted
to go, you had to go back to school.
Tom (11:17):
Working with these kids, I lost my purpose and meaning when I was
discharged and found it working withyouth and not only found it, but found
that I had a talent and an abilitybecause young people responded to me.
So I am highly educated military, but thateducation has no civilian counterpart.
(11:39):
So at that stage, I didn't want to goback to school because I didn't feel
as though I needed to because therewas still a lack of humility in me.
Long story short is I got past myself.
I saw that what was happening withyouth where they were coming to me and
(11:59):
sharing things with me and I didn'thave answers and that was unacceptable.
And because of that, I returnedBachelor's, Master's, Licensed Board
Certification, and now 35 yearsof experience with young people
and all people across the board.
Mike (12:16):
And you talk in your book, I think rather eloquently, about the
society we live in right now beingdivided into the me's and the we's.
Tom (12:25):
Actually it's the haves and the have nots that are
representing themselves right now.
And I don't think that the country isaware of what's going to come on Monday,
but the fact of the matter is i'm doingthis and I wrote that book so that I
could get into the public eye so thatI could do one thing and that it is to
(12:45):
let our youth know that I seek to be anadvocate for them and I am not asking
them to trust me because I found thattrust was the one thing that you had to
have if you're going to work with youth.
Mike (12:57):
Yes.
Tom (12:58):
And all that I'm saying is, I'm not asking you to trust me.
I'm asking for the opportunityto earn your trust.
And on and on I come, and right nowsitting with you, able to share this
story and let them see me and know me.
Because on Monday, everybody'sgonna wake up to a brand new world.
Mike (13:16):
Yeah, we're recording this just before the inauguration, by the way.
What does trust looklike to an adolescent?
Tom (13:24):
Every time you say you're going to do something, let's move up.
I'm in the Boys and Girls Club.
I'm a unit director.
The Boys and Girls Clubhas six core areas.
There's nature, there's education,there's athletics, there's
leadership, there's all these things.
I am running that, and during the summerwe have field trips, and so if you tell a
(13:49):
young person that, yes, tomorrow at eighto'clock I'm going to be here, and in this
form was, I opened that club during thesummer at eight o'clock in the morning and
stayed open until eight o'clock at night.
And they saw that every time I said Iwas going to do something, I did it.
There is the trust.
You can't say trust me.
(14:10):
Those are just words.
As am I sitting here over and over sayingto you that I'm looking to earn your trust
over time, proving to you that my wordis my bond and that I am trustworthy.
And if we can get to thatplace, then we have a chance.
Mike (14:26):
Over my career, Tom, you and I have done very much the same stuff.
It has always been one of myirritants that I'm going to
get a little soapboxy here.
When workers, people who work with youthcancel meetings, don't follow through
on what they say they're going to do.
They're certainly used tothat in the court system.
And as you just said, they're coming,the kids we're talking about, are
(14:49):
coming to you and us having a lifetimeof adults not follow through so
that they got a built in not trust.
So it's essential, right?
8am means I'm there.
The door's open.
Tom (15:04):
Absolutely.
And you hit it on the head becausethat's the key element that you are what
you say you are in the eyes of youth.
And because I had established that...
When in recovery, we have torelearn how to do everything.
And one of those things is beinghealthy and joyful with experiences.
(15:29):
Say, you know, walks or workingout and all of those things
what we would call playing.
Now, how an adult plays is notthe same as how a kid plays.
And if you're working with kids oryouth and you want to play with them,
you have to play like they play.
And that was what I learned fromthem was how to play like a kid.
(15:54):
And because of it, there wasthe beginning of the bond that
allowed for the conversations.
What's an example of that?
I had trees on the property of theBoys and Girls Club, and you'd see kids
trying to get up and climb the trees.
And I'd go up and climbthe tree with them.
Mike (16:13):
(laugh)
Tom (16:14):
They got this adult supposedly, you know, mature and he's climbing
actually to the very top and.
You know what?
You set the example, again, not bywhat you tell youth, it's by what
you are in your actions with them.
Mike (16:32):
Yeah, I'm laughing because I've told this story I think once before on
here, but I got called on the carpetat a treatment center I worked with for
during a drought, we had a rainstorm.
Not just allowing the kidsto go outside in the rain.
But going out with them and we hada blast and it was probably one of
the most therapeutic things and Igot chewed out for it, but I would
do it again and again and again.
(16:54):
You use a term in your book I'm gonnaborrow by the way, because I love it.
Called yourself a clinicaltroubleshooter, that's a great term.
What does that mean to you
Tom (17:05):
As it stands right now.
I am at the end of my career.
I just turned 65.
I've been in this world of recovery andactually not recovery, but the clinical.
And from where I sit, I went to getall that knowledge because, again,
a youth comes up and has in thatmoment, a devastating circumstance,
(17:30):
and they're coming to you forhelp and not having an answer.
That was the driving factor.
And so at this stage, I have immersedmyself in understanding everything that
it is that is necessary, not for youth,but for all humanity, when I do what I do.
Mike (17:50):
Yeah.
Tom (17:51):
At this stage I no longer go to a brick and mortar place.
I am in my home, in the back room,doing these interviews and I have
got it down to, I work two daysa week, Tuesdays and Thursdays.
I do clinical and then Friday, Saturday,Sunday, Monday, and Wednesday, I play.
(18:11):
And in that, it is, right now, my abilityto give back and have the time, and most
importantly, have the knowledge up herefrom all those experiences that I can
be profoundly effective because as wespeak what happens Monday, it's the the
(18:32):
adult world that I'm not concerned about.
I'm concerned about our youthand the reason is because youth
don't listen to what we say.
They watch us for what we do and they havebeen watching for the last year a nation
that will not talk with one another, thatis fearful and angry, and is going to
(18:54):
manifest on Monday in ways that truly aregoing to devastate the adult population,
and our youth are looking for us foranswers, and they're seeing us be insane.
Mike (19:05):
Yeah.
Tom (19:05):
So, my grounding at this part is to be available to them starting Monday.
Mike (19:12):
And you're also giving back.
Talk about the Honor Bound Academy.
Tom (19:18):
So I looked at, and the book is written from the perspective
of adolescent to adulthood.
At the very bottom is, youknow, adolescent to adulthood,
we all have that transition.
And I told the story of thegeneration that was the greatest,
generation that is silent, boomer,and all those other generations.
(19:41):
And what I had in my youth that was inthe form of a rite of passage, I came
to understand watching and workingwith youth that no longer exists.
And that is the creation in that bookof having a program that's called Honor
Bound Academy that explains in a oneyear program how to instill all the
(20:03):
lessons that they're missing right now.
And the reason that it's in the book, isfor the last 10 years I've attempted to
get funding and was unable to and was notwilling to not have that body of knowledge
and information just go to naught.
So my idea is I'll write a book, tell thestory, my story, our story, youth story
(20:28):
over generations, and then put it at theend with somebody perhaps in the future
finding it and having the wherewithalfinancially to be able to bring it on or
somebody right now saying, I'll fund that.
Mike (20:43):
We fund a lot of stuff.
Tom (20:45):
Yeah.
Mike (20:46):
And you know as you lay out the program, that kind of structured
program that transitions somebodyfrom childhood to young, through
adolescence, to young adulthood.
If you complete a program like that, thestatistics are unbelievably undeniable.
You have a great success rate movingforward if you don't ring the bell.
Tom (21:11):
And so the thing with it is, is I'm not looking to create
little special forces people, youknow, I built this thing for every
kid, the kid that's overweight andsits in the corner all by himself.
To the one that can't sit still.
And understand this to that it'screated that I'm seeking funding so
(21:34):
nobody has to pay to experience it.
I don't believe you need to pay for this.
This is something thatwe're supposed to give you.
And so understanding that perspectiveis at this point with the program
having not been able to run actually toprove, you know, merit that it works.
In it, I have to give you thedignity and the character and
(21:59):
the choice to quit if you want.
Now I'm going to make that verydifficult on you because I'm not going
to give up on you, but at some pointthere are some folks that their path
is going to take them to places thatwe see that we would rather they not
go, but that is their life destiny.
(22:19):
That's what they're meant to do.
So at that point, I will ask you toleave or I will show you the door
with an understanding of givingyou the information on an exit plan
to but to say that nobody quits.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I need you to be happy.
(22:40):
I need you to have that as a choice and Iwill respect it if you so choose to quit.
Mike (22:46):
Yeah.
Since you work with kids all the timeand have, we're experiencing a mental
health crisis among adolescents now thatwe literally have not, we haven't seen.
And so what I liked about your layingout the program was you take time saying,
look, we're going to address some ofthese, how to take care of yourself, how
to problem solve, how to deal with youremotions, how to cope with those things.
(23:08):
Cause Tom, we're not seeing thosemodeled in our society anymore.
Tom (23:12):
Exactly.
So I've got a couple of youngpeople that I'm seeing right now
on those Tuesdays and Thursdays.
They're in their mid 20s.
And what I'm seeking in HonorBound Academy is to incorporate
an internal nexus, a stability anda belief system within you that
you put there and that you trust.
(23:34):
And if that's not there, as it is with acouple of the folks I'm dealing with right
now, I am at a loss as to how to help.
All that it is is, what happenswith that type of individual, they
find themselves so frustrated thateverything is somebody else's fault.
And they want to, in myinteraction with them, have me
(23:58):
tell them, you're not worth it.
I can't help you.
I'm not going to deal with this.
I know that's what they're doing.
And so what I do is I'mnever going to give up.
I'm saying, look, I'm not exactlysure what I'm going to do with you.
But next week at this time, I'm goingto call you again and try again,
because I'm not going to give up on you.
And in that, that's a stabilizing factor.
(24:20):
I still don't know what the answer is,but they will answer the phone next week.
And as long as I can keep inserting overand over, no matter what they say, I give
you a suggestion, you give me an excuse.
You know what?
That's okay.
I'll do that until we're blue in the face.
(24:42):
So bring it.
Mike (24:44):
I don't think and I bet you agree with this.
I don't think we sacrifice ourmasculinity moving forward by being
able to cope with our own emotionsor express them for that matter.
But we're seeing a swingback in that direction.
You and I grew up in the suck itup, be a man generation, which
was, you know, bury your feelings.
Not very productive in relationships.
Tom (25:04):
You want to cry, I'll give you something to cry about.
Mike (25:06):
(laugh) God, how many times we heard that, right?
Rub some dirt on it, Tom.
(laugh)
Tom (25:13):
And this right now is a whole generation and more than a generation.
You know, we've got Y and Z.
Y is 30s.
Z is 20.
And the alphas are coming now.
They are in high school and middleschool and elementary school
(25:34):
and they're missing out on...
Again, I will say it over and over again.
I have never successfullyspoken to someone and gave them
an answer to their problem.
I have always gone into the individualand found the answer within them that
(25:54):
they can't find, and we bring it up andout, and then, because we've worked it
there, I ask them, is this who you are?
Is this real?
And if the answer is yes, then wecan move forward, because they said,
I brought that there, I acknowledgethat, I believe in it, internal nexus.
(26:16):
Life will throw you for aloop, but you know what?
You learn to handle it now, and you canuse this for every time here on out.
What are we going to do witha generation between birth and
29 right now that are flailing?
And nobody is talking and nobody is goingto say, I'll stand up and I'll help.
(26:42):
I will volunteer.
And so if no one else isgoing to do it, I will.
Mike (26:48):
What is your, if you flash forward, what's your ideal outcome
for young men in our society?
Where do you see them going?
And I'll give you a go away after that.
Tom (26:58):
To be perfectly honest with you, I really don't know what's coming.
And so I have to adapt to what Isee and experience to know what
direction we're going to take.
And my military career and my professionalcareer have put me in a position to
be able to not have the answer andknow in the moment that I can find
something and we'll make it work.
(27:21):
And right now, all that I can say is,to a generation of youth, no matter
where it takes us, no matter where wego, I'm going to be there with you.
Mike (27:29):
Outstanding.
Do you think we canchange the Me to the We?,
Can we bridge that gapthat is so wide right now?
Tom (27:38):
Yes.
So Margaret Mead years ago said,don't ever underestimate the
small group of individuals who arededicated to changing the societal
norms and do not underestimate them.
I don't need an army.
I just need a group of individuals whoare willing to give everything and in
(28:02):
showing our youth that we will do thatfor them, then yeah, I believe that
there are circumstances that can changefor the betterment for many individuals.
Mike (28:14):
I do too, Tom.
You know, happiness is so muchof a better model for living
your life than disease, right?
And optimism is so muchbetter than the opposite.
The book is Special Welfare SocialWelfare, and what I like about the last
part where we talked about the HonorBound Academy is it's a really nice guide
for am I doing this with my own kids?
(28:36):
Am I doing this with the peoplethat I know working with?
Tom, thanks so much for your time andyour efforts over the career and for
being willing to share your story.
Appreciate it.
Tom (28:46):
Yeah, and to have a you know, a like individual that we've, you
know, we're out here, Michael.
Mike (28:52):
Yeah, we are.
Tom (28:53):
We are here.
Now, if I could justshare I have a website.
TheHonorBoundAcademy.orgTheHonorBoundAcademy.org will take you
to my website where you'll see everythingthat I am, including all the various types
of social media platforms and everythingthat I am and everything that I espouse,
including on a regular basis submittingmore information in the form of stories.
(29:18):
You can find me and it atthehonorboundacademy.org and I appreciate
you for giving me this opportunity.
Mike (29:25):
Hey, it's great.
I appreciate you.
And those of you who listen regularlyknow that there are links on the
blurb for Tom's book, his socialsfor the Honor Bound Academy.
Please go to them.
For those of you listening andwatching I hope you find hope
wherever you are listening.
Be safe.
And keep moving forward,regardless of what Monday brings.
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