January 22, 2025 • 33 mins
For many, spending time with family during the holidays is joyful and fulfilling. For others, spending time with family is emotionally challenging as they navigate varying degrees of disease, disinformation and dysfunction. Guida Brown talks about how we can take care of ourselves, set healthy boundaries, and handle relationship dysfunction with honesty and respect. Guida is the Principal for Guided by Guida and serves as the Community Relations Consultant for the US Drug Testing Laboratories in Des Plaines, Illinois. She has been an adjunct faculty member for Carthage College, University of Wisconsin -- Parkside, Concordia University, and Gateway Technical College. Guida is certified by the State of Wisconsin as a Substance Abuse Counselor, a Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder trainer, and an Intoxicated Driver Program Assessor. She is also a Kenosha (Wisconsin) County Board Supervisor. She can be reached at https://guidedbyguida.guide/
The views and opinions of the guests on this podcast are theirs and theirs alone and do not necessarily represent those of the host, Westwords Consulting or the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition.
We're always interested in hearing from individuals or organizations who are working in substance use disorder treatment or prevention, mental health care and other spaces that lift up communities. This includes people living those experiences. If you or someone you know has a story to share or an interesting approach to care, contact us today!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mike (00:12):
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
Many of us just got through theholiday season, spending hours joyfully
interacting with friends and loved ones.
God, that sounded sarcastic.
(00:32):
But just a casual glance at socialmedia tells you that not everything
everywhere is tinsel and Christmascookies in every household.
We're going to discuss getting and stayinghealthy when surrounded by disease,
disinformation, and dysfunction with ourfavorite returning guest, Guida Brown.
Guida is the principal for Guidedby Guida and serves as a community
(00:56):
relations consultant for U.
S.
Drug Testing Laboratoriesin Des Plaines, Illinois.
She has been an adjunct faculty memberfor Carthage College, University of
Wisconsin Parkside, Concordia University,and Gateway Technical College.
Guida is also certified by thestate of Wisconsin as a substance
abuse counselor, a fetal alcoholspectrum disorder trainer, and an
(01:16):
intoxicated driver program assessor.
She's also a Kenosha, WisconsinCounty Board supervisor.
Welcome back Guida.
Guida (01:26):
Thanks, Mike.
Mike (01:27):
Well,, thanks for doing this.
I know we were chatting and wewere talking about the holidays and
well, first, how were your holidays?
Guida (01:36):
So I know here I'm supposed to say how great they were.
Mike (01:39):
Well, no, no, I didn't.
I don't know.
Were they?
Guida (01:42):
They were, they helped me to walk into this interview.
How's that?
Mike (01:47):
Well, you texted me on Christmas Day, so I gotta assume I wasn't
the first thought on Christmas Day.
Guida (01:54):
Well, yeah Christmas Day was really laid back.
We normally have plans with David'sfamily, my husband, and this year due to
babies and moving that was not a thing.
So we ended up staying home and watchingfootball and I read, so, and David's
son came and visited us, so that waslow key and, and actually very nice.
Mike (02:16):
My favorite Christmas Day activity is to do an additional
half an hour on the stationary bike.
So that's been my thing forever.
You know, when the kidsgo to visit their mom.
Well, you know, you and I think,grew up in similar households.
So growing up, the holidays are weird.
When you're a little kid andyou're surrounded by drinking,
(02:37):
you see weird stuff, right?
Guida (02:39):
You do.
And add to it when there'snot a ton of money.
Mike (02:45):
Mm hmm.
Guida (02:46):
As of the drinking.
So the history in my family, webasically have two generations of kids.
I have sisters who are 10 yearsolder and more 19 up to 19 and then
one sister who's three years older.
And so we had twodifferent generations and.
When my older sisters were beingraised, that was when my father
(03:08):
was the main breadwinner and notbringing that money home necessarily.
And so I remember my working mother,and Christmases with my working mother,
but even my mom would tell us storiesabout how in, she was a first generation
immigrant to America from Italy.
(03:30):
My grandparents were both from Italy.
And my mom would talk about howthey had to plan for money, right?
And so if they thought they weren'tgoing to have money at the end of
the year, they would celebrate St.
Nick's Day on December 6th.
And then otherwise theywould celebrate Christmas.
Otherwise they wouldcelebrate the epiphany.
And so for her, and so it sort of camedown, not to that degree, because we
(03:53):
always had great gifts for Christmas and,you know, I have these vivid memories of
wonderful coming down and having a wholetable set, the kids table, it turned out
to be because there were too many of us.
But at the time it was the tableset up in the living room with the
little chairs and the little tea seton it and how wonderful that was.
And I also remember, you know, theChristmas I got my baby doll and ripped
(04:17):
her head off in like five seconds andtook it to my sister in two pieces and
it's like, (crying) can you help me?
I was a destructive child.
But so, those stories being told, or evenlike, we have lobster every Christmas Eve.
And the reason we have lobsterevery Christmas Eve is, A, we were
born, we were raised Catholic.
(04:37):
Old generation Catholics, they didn'thave, Italians didn't, Catholics
couldn't eat fish on Christmas Eve.
I mean, sorry, couldn'teat meat on Christmas Eve.
There was a prohibition.
You couldn't eat meat on Christmas Eve.
So that's where the Feast of the SevenFishes comes from in the Italian culture.
But when my older sisters werelittle, my mom had to feed them tuna
(04:58):
fish and macaroni and cheese becausethere was no money to buy good stuff.
And so as my mom became thebreadwinner, she bought us lobster
and shrimp and said, never again.
So I always use this, my sister andI argue, my sister hosts Christmas
Eve and we argue every year.
(05:19):
And sometimes that argument startsas early as August as to whether
or not we're going to have lobster.
And I buy the lobster.
I don't prepare it, but I buy it.
And so I'm like, oh well, good,let's get this conversation out of
the way so we don't have to fight inNovember about whether or not we're
having lobster because I just insistthat that tradition carry on because
(05:41):
that was so much of my growing up,was my mom saying, never again, I'm
not going to live like this again.
Mike (05:46):
You know, that's so similar.
I've told my kids, and I just had adiscussion with my son last night.
We were talking about Kwik Trip corn dogs.
And I said, I've never had a corn dogin my life and I will not eat hot dogs.
And he looks at me.
I don't know if he didn't remember thisor whatever, but that was the meat we
could afford if we could afford meat.
(06:06):
And so once I got to where Ilived by myself, I said, I'll
never eat a hot dog again.
And I haven't.
And it's that thing, right?
It's a mental thing where, you know, I'mnot going back to where we used to be.
Guida (06:22):
Right, yup.
Mike (06:23):
Well, you said your mom was a breadwinner.
Where was your dad in all this?
Guida (06:28):
You know, (laugh) in my childhood brain, I feel as though, and this is
my argument about inpatient treatment.
I feel like my father wasinpatient treatment every 60 days.
Like, you know, 28 days in, 32 days out.
28 days in, 32 days out.
I know it wasn't that often,but it was pretty often.
(06:50):
And he died in active addiction.
He ended up with cancer.
Died young.
I was only 22 years old.
Mike (06:59):
Well, you shared I think it was on Christmas, your text you shared
with me, something I hadn't heardbefore, which is one of your memories
is him leaning up against a tree, or...
Guida (07:08):
Knocking it over.
Mike (07:10):
Knocking a tree over, sorry.
Guida (07:12):
That was part of our traditions, (laugh) not dad knocking the Christmas
tree over, but when you think aboutthis now, right, so we would have a
live tree, and we would always decoratethe live tree on Christmas Eve.
Think that through now, right?
In your, in your adult brain,it's because that's when you could
(07:32):
get a tree for cheap or free.
Mike (07:34):
Absolutely.
Guida (07:35):
Right.
But in my childhood brain, it was likethat, again, that was the tradition.
Mike (07:40):
That's the tradition.
Guida (07:41):
And so eventually we ended up with an artificial tree.
And yeah dad spent alot of time intoxicated.
And especially around the holidays becausemy mom would not have liquor in the house.
My father had...
He drank beer and that was, youknow, the, he's got to have beer.
He's going to go into withdrawal.
(08:01):
So my mother would allow beer.
And again, this is another, in my peabrain as a child, I never realized
my father was drunk 100 percent ofthe time, 100 percent of the time.
And I didn't know it because youknew regular dad and drunk dad and
drunk dad was anytime he had...
Brandy was his liquor of choice andanytime he had brandy all bets were
(08:24):
off but he was always drunk and soas I started in the field and started
and I was like oh my gosh of course itwas you add the brandy and so my mom
knew that instinctively, I'm sure shedidn't understand the biological aspect
of it, but she knew it instinctivelyso he always had beer in the house.
He was always allowed to drinkbeer you know, when he wasn't
(08:47):
supposed to be in recovery.
But he was not allowed to have thehard liquor at the holidays, the hard
liquor was more readily available.
And so, yeah, one year Dad just fellinto the tree and knocked it over.
And again, money.
We taped it with duct tape.
(laugh)
(09:08):
And then every year, like it would belike, you know, crooked on the top and
then you'd have to straighten it andeventually we got a new Christmas tree.
But yeah, that and waking up onChristmas morning to open the presents
and having somebody sleep on the couchand wondering who, you know, like
(09:30):
sneaking in ready to open presents.
And it was like, Who'sthat guy on the couch?
You know, my dad's friends who hadgotten intoxicated and couldn't drive.
And so, and usually they werethe the old guys we knew.
You know, sometimes it was kindof stranger danger, rarely.
And, again, my father was a wonderful man.
(09:52):
And I really think that hasaffected me in a way that other
people don't have that luxury.
I was never afraid of my father.
My father was never abusive.
I was never afraid of my father's friends.
And so it wasn't like I grew up inan environment of fear or violence.
It was just that my fatherhad the disease of addiction.
(10:12):
And I consider that a realblessing because now as an adult, I
recognize the disease of addiction.
All that other stuff that goeswith it, that's not addiction.
Like somebody asked me one time,like, how do you excuse what
they do when they're drunk?
And I was like, what do you mean?
And she's like, well, you know, Peoplewith cancer don't abuse their kids.
(10:33):
I said people with addictiondon't abuse their kids.
Abusers abuse their kids, right?
It doesn't, they don't go hand in hand andI was blessed to see that in my father.
And so I was actually joking withDavid about this interview and the
things that, my father wasn't perfectand I'm not saying I don't have
(10:55):
a seven on the adverse childhoodexperiences or a six on a good day.
I do, but I didn't grow up fearingfor anything or wanting for anything.
And so now moving forward, whenI sit at the Christmas table with
people who have addictions, withpeople who have active addictions.
(11:18):
I look at that like it's a disease.
And it's the same as sitting atthe table with somebody who's got
dementia or Alzheimer's or, youknow, yeah, it's annoying, right?
It is so annoying.
How many times do I haveto tell you the same story?
How many times do I haveto answer that question?
I had an experience this weekend.
(11:41):
The tone of voice thatsomebody was using with me.
And I literally said, Why are youusing that tone of voice with me?
Oh, what do you know?
And I was like, why, why are you taught?
Well, I believe that the person hassome maybe early onset dementia,
can't remember things, can'tappropriately disagree, older person.
(12:05):
But I'm not going to say, well, that's it.
That's it!
I'm never going to have ameal with that person again.
Right?
It, that doesn't make sense.
We understand that when itcomes to other diseases.
But when it comes to this diseaseof addiction that we all say we
believe is a disease, but we don'ttreat it like it's a disease, right?
If you would just stop drinking,then Christmas would be fine.
(12:28):
Yeah, I suppose.
I mean, actually, you know what?
It wouldn't, right?
All the other stuff that goes with that.
You can't just stop drinking, right?
You can't just stop smokingand think your cancer's cured.
You can't just stop drinking andthink your alcoholism is cured.
So, I really think that it has to dowith believing addiction is a disease.
(12:51):
Recognizing it for what it is.
And then, yeah, setting our boundaries.
I have many times said, okay, we're done!
(laugh)
We have to go home now.
Mike (13:01):
Yup, yup.
Guida (13:02):
Time to leave!
But I've also made choices to not dothat because of other people I care
about who are enduring the same, or whoyou know it's Christmas, and as my one
sister says, you don't talk about UncleJack's alcoholism at the Christmas table.
(13:22):
You just don't.
You don't bring it up there.
And that's not to say I don't bring itup other times, but how many times do
you bring up somebody's illness thatthey're not doing anything about, right?
I mean, they know, right?
Everybody in my familyknows who has the addiction.
The person who has the addiction,knows they have the addiction.
(13:43):
And my saying, hey, yougonna get that checked out?
Hey, I think you should go to counsel.
Hey.
It does no good.
All that does is make me the personthey don't want to talk to, or
the person they don't even wantat the Christmas table, right?
So I just, I say it once, twice, if itcomes up again, you know, but not at the
Christmas table, not during the holidays,not, you know, Hey, I counted your drinks
(14:05):
for you and you've been drinking too much.
Mike (14:08):
Okay.
There's, there's so much inthat three minutes, right?
Let's, so let me break itdown just a little bit.
Let's go backwards, because there's alot of enabling and boundary crossing
that took place when you were younger.
And then as you become an adult, how doyou learn, and you started to allude to
(14:29):
that, how do you learn where that healthyboundary is, and to not enable, but take
care of yourself and still maintain somekind of relationship with those people?
Because, as you said, oftentimesthe squeaky wheel becomes the
black sheep of the family.
Guida (14:49):
Yeah, so, I think, and again, I will credit this to
my father, it is not about me.
It is not about, no one is gettingdrunk at Christmas because of me.
And they may tell me it's becauseof me, but they are not getting
drunk at Christmas because of me.
They are not using it atChristmas because of me, right?
(15:09):
And they are not using itat any time because of me.
And I have been criticized andinsulted and by friends and strangers
alike, family friends and strangersalike, and I'm like, eh, okay.
It is not about me.
And so when, you know, you'veseen those things like, what
would you tell your younger self?
It is not about me.
It is 100 percent not about me.
(15:32):
And so recognizing that andbeing able to say, Okay, okay.
I always thought that David,my husband, was codependent.
And then I realized, no he's not.
He's just helpful.
Codependency is when you startresenting helping other people.
(15:52):
Being helpful is when it makes youfeel good to help other people, right?
And so David will help anybody.
Strangers, friends, anybody.
All they have to do is say, Hey, and he'slike, Yes, what, what can I do for you?
He does not resent that.
One time he was walking through thepark or he was coming to see me.
There was a guy walking through a parkcarrying a great big heavy backpack.
(16:13):
David said, Hey, can I helpyou carry that backpack?
And the guy was like, Yeah.
David grabs a backpack andhe was like, Yeah, that, that
six pack was really heavy.
(laugh)
Okay.
So, but David's like, Oh, okay, Iguess I'm carrying somebody's beer.
So the idea that the enabling, whatstops making you feel good when, when
(16:33):
you're working harder on somebody elsethan they are working on themselves.
Enabling them, right?
But so, that's at Christmas timeat the dinner table, you know,
when you're getting together whenit's not appropriate to talk.
I'm not working on you at all.
You're clearly not working on you.
I'm not going to assert my energyto tell you what I know is truth.
(16:58):
You don't even care.
You're not in a place to listen to me.
Why would I bring that up?
So I'm not going to enable that behavior.
To the point where, I've been at familypicnics where people will say to kids,
little kids, hey, would you get me a beer?
And I go, nope.
They will not go get your own beer.
Absolutely not.
Go get your own beer.
Right?
And, and yeah, people are like,how dare you tell that child, that
(17:19):
little child to not get me a beer.
I'm like, that's not appropriate.
You want a beer, go get it.
Mike (17:24):
Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is people have heard
you on the podcast before or who know you.
You lean towards the more assertiveside of human beings, right?
(chuckle)
Guida (17:36):
(laugh)
Mike (17:38):
There's so many people in situations where there's addiction in
the family who walk on eggshells so much.
It's just the anxiety and the nervousness.
They don't say anything to gettingthe beer, to everything else.
And you go the other direction.
(17:58):
It's like, you know, you'revery blunt in that way.
And that's not an unhealthyway to live either.
And that doesn't meanyou love them any less.
Guida (18:07):
No.
And you know, people all the timeare like, Oh, you're so mean.
Oh, you're so blah.
And I'm like, I can sleep at night.
Mike (18:16):
Isn't it interesting how they define that as, mean?
Mean?
Okay, what was mean about sayingyou can get your own beer?
Guida (18:26):
And I say, no, I'm honest.
I'm honest.
And I think it's really important whatwe model for kids, for other people.
You know, I think about that all the time.
Like, who do I want mygrandchildren to see?
Who do I want them to grow up to become?
I don't want them to be in acodependent relationship where
(18:47):
they're enabling bad behavior.
I want them to see somebody whosays, hey, that's not appropriate.
Don't talk to me in that tone of voice.
Get your own beer.
You know, time for us to go.
This stopped being fun five minutes ago.
It's time for us to go.
Mike (18:59):
Yeah.
And what's wrong with that?
Nothing, right?
Guida (19:02):
No, right?
No.
And so I have a friend,we talked about this.
She said, I don't think it'sappropriate to ever cancel Christmas.
Right?
People are like, Christmas is cancelled!
Dad's drunk again!
Christmas is cancelled!
And it's like, Christmas isn't cancelled!
All you're doing is ruining your life.
(19:23):
But because of this person's behavior.
Christmas isn't cancelled.
Set your boundaries.
And she told me, Mike, I love this story.
She was having dinner, Christmasdinner, with friends and
family and family adjacent.
And one of the family adjacentmembers had addiction and was
(19:47):
nodding off in the mashed potatoes.
To the point where people werelike, pushing her head up,
pulling her back by her hair.
Yeah, and they're all eating and,you know, it's uncomfortable, right?
It is horribly, horribly uncomfortable.
So at some point, they take herto the ER, and the ER, they pump
(20:07):
her stomach, they do whatever.
She comes back to the tableand they have dessert.
Mike (20:13):
Oh my god.
(laugh)
Guida (20:15):
I love that story.
I love that story.
I'm like, Why not?
It's not about you.
She's sick.
When somebody's sick, you help them.
You help them get treatment.
And if they choose not to gettreatment, how many people do you
know who continue to smoke cigarettes?
How many people do you knowwho have type 2 diabetes and
(20:38):
aren't managing their diet well.
How many people do you know whohave asthma, who do things that,
you know, all of that stuff.
We don't shun them.
We don't cancel holidays because of them.
We figure out how we can endure that.
And honestly, I mean, tome, I love traditions.
(20:59):
I love the holidays.
I love that it is the one time we'resupposed to be decent to one another.
(chuckle)
So be decent, be decent.
Mike (21:10):
Well, okay, let me go there because I think when you talk
about, I'm not having fun anymore.
I stopped five minutes ago.
Let's go.
I hang around with, because of thenature of our work, people who work
with other people, whether it beteachers, social workers, counselors.
That's my biggest friend group.
I cannot believe the number of storiesI've heard over the years of those
people who are disrespected openly atfamily functions about what they do
(21:34):
for a living, who they are as people.
You don't work that hard.
You're only working this.
You know, you get paid too much.
Who does that?
And so at what point does thatdisrespect then cross the line?
You're like, well, okay, I knowthis is Christmas, Thanksgiving,
whatever, but I'm out of here.
Guida (21:54):
See, okay, I would ask when those conversations start,
what does the other person do?
Because most of us justshrink into ourselves.
Mike (22:04):
Yes, right.
Guida (22:06):
Oh, me, I go, why are you talking to me like that?
Did you think that was a goodtone of voice to use with it?
You think that's an appropriatequestion to ask somebody?
I'm not.
It's not about me.
It's about you.
It's about you being inappropriate.
It's about you being jealous.
(22:27):
It's about you being rude.
It's about you.
It's not about my choices, and so Iam not going to be defensive about my
choices, and I think that's what happens.
I think so often we get defensive,or we get you know, that low self
esteem that we all grew up with justrises up in a balloon above us, and
we're like, all right, that's it, youknow, and then we pout and we cry,
(22:50):
and we're, especially family, right?
I can be a 10 year old with myfamily, (snaps fingers) like that!
Like that!
It amazes me.
And I think I've finally probablygrown out of that where they can say
anything they want and I go, okay, okay.
Or I just check out a conversations.
I'm not gonna engage in this.
I'm just not gonna engage in this.
(23:12):
But I don't make it about me, becausetheir being rude to me isn't about me.
Right?
Mike (23:16):
It's amazing though, when you do things like, Why are
you using that tone with me?
And you're an aware person.
The number of side looks youget from other family members,
You know, the finger to the...
(holds finger to lips) Shh!
Don't rock the boat.
Oh my God.
Here we go.
Here we go.
Right?
So you're getting the message thatyou now are the problem because you're
(23:37):
going to stir the pot even thoughthat person's holding the damn spoon.
Guida (23:42):
And you know what?
I've been in those whereI say, you know what?
I guess I'm upsetting things here.
I should probably leave.
Now, again, I refuse.
Mike the stories I could tell you ofthe inappropriate comments, behaviors.
(24:02):
Right before Thanksgiving I got a lovedone told me to F off and I'm like, okay.
I didn't respond to it.
Okay.
All right.
You own that.
This isn't about me.
This is about whatever's going on inyour world, in your head, that's on you.
And so we talk about waiting forthe, or forgiving, forgiving people
(24:23):
for the apology that never happened.
Right?
I do that so often.
And I'm not trying topat myself on the back.
I think it's a learned skill.
All right.
And so when my, it's alwaysfamily members, it's almost
always family members.
When they act so inappropriatelyand then they have to, like, come
back into the fold, we're alwayslike, how's that gonna happen?
(24:46):
What are they gonna say?
Well, you know, andI'm like, I don't care.
You don't have to apologize to me.
I had one experience where somebodygot so unbelievably impaired.
Like, I, given my years in the field,I had no idea what drugs were on board.
Like, I was Googling and it's so, theworst I've, I was like, what is this?
(25:11):
Who, what is this?
Because this is not just drinking.
This is not just, and you know,literally like Googling, what
mixing alcohol with this drug?
And, really inappropriatebehavior, really, you know,
just explosive, bad, awful.
And then that person came back intothe fold and said, you know, I
(25:36):
don't even know how it opened.
I'm sorry.
Or, hey, I missed you.
I think that's what it was.
And, you know, I don't wantto rehash what happened.
And I said, I don't want to rehash whathappened either, but no one, no one
should ever get as shit faced as you were.
And she said, I know.
(25:56):
And that was the end of it.
Again, we address it.
I'm not going to pretendyou didn't act like that.
I'm not going to pretend I'm theproblem because you got intoxicated,
high, whatever, whatever.
You went off the rails.
I'm not going to pretend it's me.
I'm going to acknowledge it's you.
(26:16):
And I think, Mike, because I have theprofessional capacity to recognize that,
and I think that's the thing that'smissing too, because so many of our
family members don't have the professionalcapacity that they think, oh, it's you
because you're the one bringing it up.
No, it's not me.
I'm the one bringing itup because I'm an expert.
(laugh) I'm an expert.
(26:38):
And the fact that you would deny myexpertise tells me the problem is you.
Mike (26:43):
Yeah, well, you know what?
I just had this happen.
Okay, I was driving my carwith my son, Colin, who's 20
something years old, right?
And I was taking him somewhere.
This is like four weeks ago.
And he turns to me and he goes,your car always sound like that?
And I looked, what do you mean?
(27:04):
That noise in the front end.
What front end?
Your right front.
I said, I drive a lot.
I guess I'm unaware of it.
Right?
I just drive the freaking car.
He knows about cars becauseit's a passion of his.
I took my car in, and sureenough, I needed four new tires.
That tire was cupping.
He knew, right?
(27:25):
Well, okay.
We do that with cars.
We do that with heating.
We do that with electricity.
We do that with cooking.
Why don't we do it with disease?
Guida (27:33):
I say that all the time.
Like if you ever went to adoctor and the doctor said
you have cancer and you said no.
Mike (27:45):
Yeah, I don't know.
Guida (27:47):
Yeah, I think you're wrong.
I know what cancer looks like.
My dad had cancer.
I don't have that.
Right?
That doesn't even make any sense.
Mike (27:55):
No.
Guida (27:55):
Or if you go to a doctor and the doctor says yeah, you
know, I think you have cancer.
You might want to cut down onsmoking, which is what so many
people in the field of addictions do.
Yeah, you have a mildsubstance use disorder.
You might want to cut back onyour drinking, (laugh) right?
We would find a new doctor, andI firmly believe this, Mike.
(28:17):
I know I've, just ad nauseum, we saywe believe it's a disease, but we don't
treat it like we believe it's a disease.
And that infuriates me.
It infuriates me that the peoplein the field are doing such a
bad job addressing the diseases.
The disease of addiction, the diseaseof alcohol use disorder, the disease
(28:39):
of cocaine use disorder, whatever.
It's a disease.
It's a disease.
It's a disease.
It's a disease.
And the making light of addiction.
I just got in a Facebook fight withsomebody, stranger, you know, she
said, I'm a recovering addict, whichis like a knife in my heart, right?
I'm not going to correct you, whatever.
And somebody, Oh, getaddicted to learning.
(29:01):
And I went back to the companyand said, do better, do better.
You can't be addicted tosomething positive, right?
You, you can't, you, yes, you can.
You can't, you're not addicted to learningunless it's causing negative consequences.
Addiction is a disease.
Addiction is a disease.
Addiction is a disease.
And she comes back, this woman,stranger danger, comes back and
says, oh, I have no problem withit because I'm a recovering addict.
(29:24):
And I, and I'm like, Well, that'spart of the problem, right?
That's part of the problem.
If we can't even call I don't know.
I know COVID has changed.
It used to be, what, coronavirus?
Now it's changed.
We change our language and people acceptthat, but for the disease of addiction, we
haven't, it has not been widely accepted.
Mike (29:45):
Well, we change our language to justify our doing nothing.
It's easy, you know, when, when,you know, you mentioned COVID,
when people say, you got the jab.
I already know that there's anagenda for them in their entire life.
So they don't really want totalk about what it does or
whether it's a disease or not.
You know, they're just have a judgment.
So when people say, oh, that'sbullshit, you know, about addiction,
(30:08):
he doesn't have that big a problem.
It's to justify they'renot bringing it up.
Guida (30:12):
Oh my gosh.
I have the best quote.
I jokingly said before we started, I spenttwo years during COVID reading, right?
So I love reading.
I love reading.
And there's a book called, it'sthe third in a series, Everyone
on this Train is a Suspect.
So the first one is EveryoneIn My Family Is a Murderer.
Everyone, oh, this is the second,Everyone on the Train is a Suspect.
(30:33):
Listen to this quote.
Holidays are, after all, mostlyextravagant charades with
which to justify an addiction.
I read that, I underlined it,I sent it to myself last night
so I would remember to say it.
Right?
We can get away with anything, again,because we have this propensity to not
(31:00):
address the elephant in the living room.
We don't talk about theelephant in the living room.
Well, I can't see you.
I can't even get around theelephant in the living room.
How do you want me to not talk about it?
And again, I'm not going to sit thereand it's not going to be the core
conversation, but we have to acknowledgethe elephant in the living room.
(31:24):
Like at least leave it in the livingroom and let's all move into the kitchen.
But we don't.
We just sit there andpretend we don't even see it.
And we can't have relationships whenwe can't see one another and we can't
talk to one another because thisgreat big elephant is sitting there.
And so, for me, that has beena huge change in my life to
(31:45):
say, yeah, not appropriate.
That is not appropriate.
Mike (31:47):
You know, somebody a long time ago told me to keep these
things to around a half an hour.
So, I'll give you this as a wrap.
Guida (31:57):
Idiot!
It was me!
(raises hand) (laugh)
Mike (32:00):
Yeah.
What I also find, and this is a greatway to close this out, is by doing
what you're suggesting, and whileyou might be a maple baseball bat and
I'm a nerf, right, I'm still direct.
Is that when push comes to shove, whenyou do address it, those folks who are
in trouble oftentimes come to you intheir recovery, and the relationship is
(32:24):
incredibly strong because you never B.
S.
them to begin with.
Guida (32:29):
Amen.
Amen.
Yeah.
Mike (32:32):
Oh, all right.
I'll let you have Amenis the last word, right?
Guida (32:36):
(laugh) There you go.
Mike (32:38):
Well let's do this again, but we'll do this before then, but let's do
this again before next Thanksgiving whenwe can talk about Blackout Wednesday,
Drinksgiving, all the way through.
The increase in drunk driving goesup 156%, blah, blah, blah, right?
Because as a society, wedon't recognize it either.
You know, you all know this, as always,there's links to Guided by Guida, and
(33:02):
her resources attached to the podcast.
And you really got to click on it,because her blogs that she writes
are, one, entertaining, informative,and really thought provoking, and
those of you who are professionals,it gives you some really interesting
topics, I think, to talk about withyour colleagues, at the very least.
(33:23):
Thanks so much for sharing thepersonal side of you today, Guida.
We hope all of you can joinus anytime you're able.
Until then, stay safe, stay healthy,and, I don't know, pick a new family.
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
Many of us just got through theholiday season, spending hours joyfully
interacting with friends and loved ones.
God, that sounded sarcastic.
(00:32):
But just a casual glance at socialmedia tells you that not everything
everywhere is tinsel and Christmascookies in every household.
We're going to discuss getting and stayinghealthy when surrounded by disease,
disinformation, and dysfunction with ourfavorite returning guest, Guida Brown.
Guida is the principal for Guidedby Guida and serves as a community
(00:56):
relations consultant for U.
S.
Drug Testing Laboratoriesin Des Plaines, Illinois.
She has been an adjunct faculty memberfor Carthage College, University of
Wisconsin Parkside, Concordia University,and Gateway Technical College.
Guida is also certified by thestate of Wisconsin as a substance
abuse counselor, a fetal alcoholspectrum disorder trainer, and an
(01:16):
intoxicated driver program assessor.
She's also a Kenosha, WisconsinCounty Board supervisor.
Welcome back Guida.
Guida (01:26):
Thanks, Mike.
Mike (01:27):
Well,, thanks for doing this.
I know we were chatting and wewere talking about the holidays and
well, first, how were your holidays?
Guida (01:36):
So I know here I'm supposed to say how great they were.
Mike (01:39):
Well, no, no, I didn't.
I don't know.
Were they?
Guida (01:42):
They were, they helped me to walk into this interview.
How's that?
Mike (01:47):
Well, you texted me on Christmas Day, so I gotta assume I wasn't
the first thought on Christmas Day.
Guida (01:54):
Well, yeah Christmas Day was really laid back.
We normally have plans with David'sfamily, my husband, and this year due to
babies and moving that was not a thing.
So we ended up staying home and watchingfootball and I read, so, and David's
son came and visited us, so that waslow key and, and actually very nice.
Mike (02:16):
My favorite Christmas Day activity is to do an additional
half an hour on the stationary bike.
So that's been my thing forever.
You know, when the kidsgo to visit their mom.
Well, you know, you and I think,grew up in similar households.
So growing up, the holidays are weird.
When you're a little kid andyou're surrounded by drinking,
(02:37):
you see weird stuff, right?
Guida (02:39):
You do.
And add to it when there'snot a ton of money.
Mike (02:45):
Mm hmm.
Guida (02:46):
As of the drinking.
So the history in my family, webasically have two generations of kids.
I have sisters who are 10 yearsolder and more 19 up to 19 and then
one sister who's three years older.
And so we had twodifferent generations and.
When my older sisters were beingraised, that was when my father
(03:08):
was the main breadwinner and notbringing that money home necessarily.
And so I remember my working mother,and Christmases with my working mother,
but even my mom would tell us storiesabout how in, she was a first generation
immigrant to America from Italy.
(03:30):
My grandparents were both from Italy.
And my mom would talk about howthey had to plan for money, right?
And so if they thought they weren'tgoing to have money at the end of
the year, they would celebrate St.
Nick's Day on December 6th.
And then otherwise theywould celebrate Christmas.
Otherwise they wouldcelebrate the epiphany.
And so for her, and so it sort of camedown, not to that degree, because we
(03:53):
always had great gifts for Christmas and,you know, I have these vivid memories of
wonderful coming down and having a wholetable set, the kids table, it turned out
to be because there were too many of us.
But at the time it was the tableset up in the living room with the
little chairs and the little tea seton it and how wonderful that was.
And I also remember, you know, theChristmas I got my baby doll and ripped
(04:17):
her head off in like five seconds andtook it to my sister in two pieces and
it's like, (crying) can you help me?
I was a destructive child.
But so, those stories being told, or evenlike, we have lobster every Christmas Eve.
And the reason we have lobsterevery Christmas Eve is, A, we were
born, we were raised Catholic.
(04:37):
Old generation Catholics, they didn'thave, Italians didn't, Catholics
couldn't eat fish on Christmas Eve.
I mean, sorry, couldn'teat meat on Christmas Eve.
There was a prohibition.
You couldn't eat meat on Christmas Eve.
So that's where the Feast of the SevenFishes comes from in the Italian culture.
But when my older sisters werelittle, my mom had to feed them tuna
(04:58):
fish and macaroni and cheese becausethere was no money to buy good stuff.
And so as my mom became thebreadwinner, she bought us lobster
and shrimp and said, never again.
So I always use this, my sister andI argue, my sister hosts Christmas
Eve and we argue every year.
(05:19):
And sometimes that argument startsas early as August as to whether
or not we're going to have lobster.
And I buy the lobster.
I don't prepare it, but I buy it.
And so I'm like, oh well, good,let's get this conversation out of
the way so we don't have to fight inNovember about whether or not we're
having lobster because I just insistthat that tradition carry on because
(05:41):
that was so much of my growing up,was my mom saying, never again, I'm
not going to live like this again.
Mike (05:46):
You know, that's so similar.
I've told my kids, and I just had adiscussion with my son last night.
We were talking about Kwik Trip corn dogs.
And I said, I've never had a corn dogin my life and I will not eat hot dogs.
And he looks at me.
I don't know if he didn't remember thisor whatever, but that was the meat we
could afford if we could afford meat.
(06:06):
And so once I got to where Ilived by myself, I said, I'll
never eat a hot dog again.
And I haven't.
And it's that thing, right?
It's a mental thing where, you know, I'mnot going back to where we used to be.
Guida (06:22):
Right, yup.
Mike (06:23):
Well, you said your mom was a breadwinner.
Where was your dad in all this?
Guida (06:28):
You know, (laugh) in my childhood brain, I feel as though, and this is
my argument about inpatient treatment.
I feel like my father wasinpatient treatment every 60 days.
Like, you know, 28 days in, 32 days out.
28 days in, 32 days out.
I know it wasn't that often,but it was pretty often.
(06:50):
And he died in active addiction.
He ended up with cancer.
Died young.
I was only 22 years old.
Mike (06:59):
Well, you shared I think it was on Christmas, your text you shared
with me, something I hadn't heardbefore, which is one of your memories
is him leaning up against a tree, or...
Guida (07:08):
Knocking it over.
Mike (07:10):
Knocking a tree over, sorry.
Guida (07:12):
That was part of our traditions, (laugh) not dad knocking the Christmas
tree over, but when you think aboutthis now, right, so we would have a
live tree, and we would always decoratethe live tree on Christmas Eve.
Think that through now, right?
In your, in your adult brain,it's because that's when you could
(07:32):
get a tree for cheap or free.
Mike (07:34):
Absolutely.
Guida (07:35):
Right.
But in my childhood brain, it was likethat, again, that was the tradition.
Mike (07:40):
That's the tradition.
Guida (07:41):
And so eventually we ended up with an artificial tree.
And yeah dad spent alot of time intoxicated.
And especially around the holidays becausemy mom would not have liquor in the house.
My father had...
He drank beer and that was, youknow, the, he's got to have beer.
He's going to go into withdrawal.
(08:01):
So my mother would allow beer.
And again, this is another, in my peabrain as a child, I never realized
my father was drunk 100 percent ofthe time, 100 percent of the time.
And I didn't know it because youknew regular dad and drunk dad and
drunk dad was anytime he had...
Brandy was his liquor of choice andanytime he had brandy all bets were
(08:24):
off but he was always drunk and soas I started in the field and started
and I was like oh my gosh of course itwas you add the brandy and so my mom
knew that instinctively, I'm sure shedidn't understand the biological aspect
of it, but she knew it instinctivelyso he always had beer in the house.
He was always allowed to drinkbeer you know, when he wasn't
(08:47):
supposed to be in recovery.
But he was not allowed to have thehard liquor at the holidays, the hard
liquor was more readily available.
And so, yeah, one year Dad just fellinto the tree and knocked it over.
And again, money.
We taped it with duct tape.
(laugh)
(09:08):
And then every year, like it would belike, you know, crooked on the top and
then you'd have to straighten it andeventually we got a new Christmas tree.
But yeah, that and waking up onChristmas morning to open the presents
and having somebody sleep on the couchand wondering who, you know, like
(09:30):
sneaking in ready to open presents.
And it was like, Who'sthat guy on the couch?
You know, my dad's friends who hadgotten intoxicated and couldn't drive.
And so, and usually they werethe the old guys we knew.
You know, sometimes it was kindof stranger danger, rarely.
And, again, my father was a wonderful man.
(09:52):
And I really think that hasaffected me in a way that other
people don't have that luxury.
I was never afraid of my father.
My father was never abusive.
I was never afraid of my father's friends.
And so it wasn't like I grew up inan environment of fear or violence.
It was just that my fatherhad the disease of addiction.
(10:12):
And I consider that a realblessing because now as an adult, I
recognize the disease of addiction.
All that other stuff that goeswith it, that's not addiction.
Like somebody asked me one time,like, how do you excuse what
they do when they're drunk?
And I was like, what do you mean?
And she's like, well, you know, Peoplewith cancer don't abuse their kids.
(10:33):
I said people with addictiondon't abuse their kids.
Abusers abuse their kids, right?
It doesn't, they don't go hand in hand andI was blessed to see that in my father.
And so I was actually joking withDavid about this interview and the
things that, my father wasn't perfectand I'm not saying I don't have
(10:55):
a seven on the adverse childhoodexperiences or a six on a good day.
I do, but I didn't grow up fearingfor anything or wanting for anything.
And so now moving forward, whenI sit at the Christmas table with
people who have addictions, withpeople who have active addictions.
(11:18):
I look at that like it's a disease.
And it's the same as sitting atthe table with somebody who's got
dementia or Alzheimer's or, youknow, yeah, it's annoying, right?
It is so annoying.
How many times do I haveto tell you the same story?
How many times do I haveto answer that question?
I had an experience this weekend.
(11:41):
The tone of voice thatsomebody was using with me.
And I literally said, Why are youusing that tone of voice with me?
Oh, what do you know?
And I was like, why, why are you taught?
Well, I believe that the person hassome maybe early onset dementia,
can't remember things, can'tappropriately disagree, older person.
(12:05):
But I'm not going to say, well, that's it.
That's it!
I'm never going to have ameal with that person again.
Right?
It, that doesn't make sense.
We understand that when itcomes to other diseases.
But when it comes to this diseaseof addiction that we all say we
believe is a disease, but we don'ttreat it like it's a disease, right?
If you would just stop drinking,then Christmas would be fine.
(12:28):
Yeah, I suppose.
I mean, actually, you know what?
It wouldn't, right?
All the other stuff that goes with that.
You can't just stop drinking, right?
You can't just stop smokingand think your cancer's cured.
You can't just stop drinking andthink your alcoholism is cured.
So, I really think that it has to dowith believing addiction is a disease.
(12:51):
Recognizing it for what it is.
And then, yeah, setting our boundaries.
I have many times said, okay, we're done!
(laugh)
We have to go home now.
Mike (13:01):
Yup, yup.
Guida (13:02):
Time to leave!
But I've also made choices to not dothat because of other people I care
about who are enduring the same, or whoyou know it's Christmas, and as my one
sister says, you don't talk about UncleJack's alcoholism at the Christmas table.
(13:22):
You just don't.
You don't bring it up there.
And that's not to say I don't bring itup other times, but how many times do
you bring up somebody's illness thatthey're not doing anything about, right?
I mean, they know, right?
Everybody in my familyknows who has the addiction.
The person who has the addiction,knows they have the addiction.
(13:43):
And my saying, hey, yougonna get that checked out?
Hey, I think you should go to counsel.
Hey.
It does no good.
All that does is make me the personthey don't want to talk to, or
the person they don't even wantat the Christmas table, right?
So I just, I say it once, twice, if itcomes up again, you know, but not at the
Christmas table, not during the holidays,not, you know, Hey, I counted your drinks
(14:05):
for you and you've been drinking too much.
Mike (14:08):
Okay.
There's, there's so much inthat three minutes, right?
Let's, so let me break itdown just a little bit.
Let's go backwards, because there's alot of enabling and boundary crossing
that took place when you were younger.
And then as you become an adult, how doyou learn, and you started to allude to
(14:29):
that, how do you learn where that healthyboundary is, and to not enable, but take
care of yourself and still maintain somekind of relationship with those people?
Because, as you said, oftentimesthe squeaky wheel becomes the
black sheep of the family.
Guida (14:49):
Yeah, so, I think, and again, I will credit this to
my father, it is not about me.
It is not about, no one is gettingdrunk at Christmas because of me.
And they may tell me it's becauseof me, but they are not getting
drunk at Christmas because of me.
They are not using it atChristmas because of me, right?
(15:09):
And they are not using itat any time because of me.
And I have been criticized andinsulted and by friends and strangers
alike, family friends and strangersalike, and I'm like, eh, okay.
It is not about me.
And so when, you know, you'veseen those things like, what
would you tell your younger self?
It is not about me.
It is 100 percent not about me.
(15:32):
And so recognizing that andbeing able to say, Okay, okay.
I always thought that David,my husband, was codependent.
And then I realized, no he's not.
He's just helpful.
Codependency is when you startresenting helping other people.
(15:52):
Being helpful is when it makes youfeel good to help other people, right?
And so David will help anybody.
Strangers, friends, anybody.
All they have to do is say, Hey, and he'slike, Yes, what, what can I do for you?
He does not resent that.
One time he was walking through thepark or he was coming to see me.
There was a guy walking through a parkcarrying a great big heavy backpack.
(16:13):
David said, Hey, can I helpyou carry that backpack?
And the guy was like, Yeah.
David grabs a backpack andhe was like, Yeah, that, that
six pack was really heavy.
(laugh)
Okay.
So, but David's like, Oh, okay, Iguess I'm carrying somebody's beer.
So the idea that the enabling, whatstops making you feel good when, when
(16:33):
you're working harder on somebody elsethan they are working on themselves.
Enabling them, right?
But so, that's at Christmas timeat the dinner table, you know,
when you're getting together whenit's not appropriate to talk.
I'm not working on you at all.
You're clearly not working on you.
I'm not going to assert my energyto tell you what I know is truth.
(16:58):
You don't even care.
You're not in a place to listen to me.
Why would I bring that up?
So I'm not going to enable that behavior.
To the point where, I've been at familypicnics where people will say to kids,
little kids, hey, would you get me a beer?
And I go, nope.
They will not go get your own beer.
Absolutely not.
Go get your own beer.
Right?
And, and yeah, people are like,how dare you tell that child, that
(17:19):
little child to not get me a beer.
I'm like, that's not appropriate.
You want a beer, go get it.
Mike (17:24):
Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is people have heard
you on the podcast before or who know you.
You lean towards the more assertiveside of human beings, right?
(chuckle)
Guida (17:36):
(laugh)
Mike (17:38):
There's so many people in situations where there's addiction in
the family who walk on eggshells so much.
It's just the anxiety and the nervousness.
They don't say anything to gettingthe beer, to everything else.
And you go the other direction.
(17:58):
It's like, you know, you'revery blunt in that way.
And that's not an unhealthyway to live either.
And that doesn't meanyou love them any less.
Guida (18:07):
No.
And you know, people all the timeare like, Oh, you're so mean.
Oh, you're so blah.
And I'm like, I can sleep at night.
Mike (18:16):
Isn't it interesting how they define that as, mean?
Mean?
Okay, what was mean about sayingyou can get your own beer?
Guida (18:26):
And I say, no, I'm honest.
I'm honest.
And I think it's really important whatwe model for kids, for other people.
You know, I think about that all the time.
Like, who do I want mygrandchildren to see?
Who do I want them to grow up to become?
I don't want them to be in acodependent relationship where
(18:47):
they're enabling bad behavior.
I want them to see somebody whosays, hey, that's not appropriate.
Don't talk to me in that tone of voice.
Get your own beer.
You know, time for us to go.
This stopped being fun five minutes ago.
It's time for us to go.
Mike (18:59):
Yeah.
And what's wrong with that?
Nothing, right?
Guida (19:02):
No, right?
No.
And so I have a friend,we talked about this.
She said, I don't think it'sappropriate to ever cancel Christmas.
Right?
People are like, Christmas is cancelled!
Dad's drunk again!
Christmas is cancelled!
And it's like, Christmas isn't cancelled!
All you're doing is ruining your life.
(19:23):
But because of this person's behavior.
Christmas isn't cancelled.
Set your boundaries.
And she told me, Mike, I love this story.
She was having dinner, Christmasdinner, with friends and
family and family adjacent.
And one of the family adjacentmembers had addiction and was
(19:47):
nodding off in the mashed potatoes.
To the point where people werelike, pushing her head up,
pulling her back by her hair.
Yeah, and they're all eating and,you know, it's uncomfortable, right?
It is horribly, horribly uncomfortable.
So at some point, they take herto the ER, and the ER, they pump
(20:07):
her stomach, they do whatever.
She comes back to the tableand they have dessert.
Mike (20:13):
Oh my god.
(laugh)
Guida (20:15):
I love that story.
I love that story.
I'm like, Why not?
It's not about you.
She's sick.
When somebody's sick, you help them.
You help them get treatment.
And if they choose not to gettreatment, how many people do you
know who continue to smoke cigarettes?
How many people do you knowwho have type 2 diabetes and
(20:38):
aren't managing their diet well.
How many people do you know whohave asthma, who do things that,
you know, all of that stuff.
We don't shun them.
We don't cancel holidays because of them.
We figure out how we can endure that.
And honestly, I mean, tome, I love traditions.
(20:59):
I love the holidays.
I love that it is the one time we'resupposed to be decent to one another.
(chuckle)
So be decent, be decent.
Mike (21:10):
Well, okay, let me go there because I think when you talk
about, I'm not having fun anymore.
I stopped five minutes ago.
Let's go.
I hang around with, because of thenature of our work, people who work
with other people, whether it beteachers, social workers, counselors.
That's my biggest friend group.
I cannot believe the number of storiesI've heard over the years of those
people who are disrespected openly atfamily functions about what they do
(21:34):
for a living, who they are as people.
You don't work that hard.
You're only working this.
You know, you get paid too much.
Who does that?
And so at what point does thatdisrespect then cross the line?
You're like, well, okay, I knowthis is Christmas, Thanksgiving,
whatever, but I'm out of here.
Guida (21:54):
See, okay, I would ask when those conversations start,
what does the other person do?
Because most of us justshrink into ourselves.
Mike (22:04):
Yes, right.
Guida (22:06):
Oh, me, I go, why are you talking to me like that?
Did you think that was a goodtone of voice to use with it?
You think that's an appropriatequestion to ask somebody?
I'm not.
It's not about me.
It's about you.
It's about you being inappropriate.
It's about you being jealous.
(22:27):
It's about you being rude.
It's about you.
It's not about my choices, and so Iam not going to be defensive about my
choices, and I think that's what happens.
I think so often we get defensive,or we get you know, that low self
esteem that we all grew up with justrises up in a balloon above us, and
we're like, all right, that's it, youknow, and then we pout and we cry,
(22:50):
and we're, especially family, right?
I can be a 10 year old with myfamily, (snaps fingers) like that!
Like that!
It amazes me.
And I think I've finally probablygrown out of that where they can say
anything they want and I go, okay, okay.
Or I just check out a conversations.
I'm not gonna engage in this.
I'm just not gonna engage in this.
(23:12):
But I don't make it about me, becausetheir being rude to me isn't about me.
Right?
Mike (23:16):
It's amazing though, when you do things like, Why are
you using that tone with me?
And you're an aware person.
The number of side looks youget from other family members,
You know, the finger to the...
(holds finger to lips) Shh!
Don't rock the boat.
Oh my God.
Here we go.
Here we go.
Right?
So you're getting the message thatyou now are the problem because you're
(23:37):
going to stir the pot even thoughthat person's holding the damn spoon.
Guida (23:42):
And you know what?
I've been in those whereI say, you know what?
I guess I'm upsetting things here.
I should probably leave.
Now, again, I refuse.
Mike the stories I could tell you ofthe inappropriate comments, behaviors.
(24:02):
Right before Thanksgiving I got a lovedone told me to F off and I'm like, okay.
I didn't respond to it.
Okay.
All right.
You own that.
This isn't about me.
This is about whatever's going on inyour world, in your head, that's on you.
And so we talk about waiting forthe, or forgiving, forgiving people
(24:23):
for the apology that never happened.
Right?
I do that so often.
And I'm not trying topat myself on the back.
I think it's a learned skill.
All right.
And so when my, it's alwaysfamily members, it's almost
always family members.
When they act so inappropriatelyand then they have to, like, come
back into the fold, we're alwayslike, how's that gonna happen?
(24:46):
What are they gonna say?
Well, you know, andI'm like, I don't care.
You don't have to apologize to me.
I had one experience where somebodygot so unbelievably impaired.
Like, I, given my years in the field,I had no idea what drugs were on board.
Like, I was Googling and it's so, theworst I've, I was like, what is this?
(25:11):
Who, what is this?
Because this is not just drinking.
This is not just, and you know,literally like Googling, what
mixing alcohol with this drug?
And, really inappropriatebehavior, really, you know,
just explosive, bad, awful.
And then that person came back intothe fold and said, you know, I
(25:36):
don't even know how it opened.
I'm sorry.
Or, hey, I missed you.
I think that's what it was.
And, you know, I don't wantto rehash what happened.
And I said, I don't want to rehash whathappened either, but no one, no one
should ever get as shit faced as you were.
And she said, I know.
(25:56):
And that was the end of it.
Again, we address it.
I'm not going to pretendyou didn't act like that.
I'm not going to pretend I'm theproblem because you got intoxicated,
high, whatever, whatever.
You went off the rails.
I'm not going to pretend it's me.
I'm going to acknowledge it's you.
(26:16):
And I think, Mike, because I have theprofessional capacity to recognize that,
and I think that's the thing that'smissing too, because so many of our
family members don't have the professionalcapacity that they think, oh, it's you
because you're the one bringing it up.
No, it's not me.
I'm the one bringing itup because I'm an expert.
(laugh) I'm an expert.
(26:38):
And the fact that you would deny myexpertise tells me the problem is you.
Mike (26:43):
Yeah, well, you know what?
I just had this happen.
Okay, I was driving my carwith my son, Colin, who's 20
something years old, right?
And I was taking him somewhere.
This is like four weeks ago.
And he turns to me and he goes,your car always sound like that?
And I looked, what do you mean?
(27:04):
That noise in the front end.
What front end?
Your right front.
I said, I drive a lot.
I guess I'm unaware of it.
Right?
I just drive the freaking car.
He knows about cars becauseit's a passion of his.
I took my car in, and sureenough, I needed four new tires.
That tire was cupping.
He knew, right?
(27:25):
Well, okay.
We do that with cars.
We do that with heating.
We do that with electricity.
We do that with cooking.
Why don't we do it with disease?
Guida (27:33):
I say that all the time.
Like if you ever went to adoctor and the doctor said
you have cancer and you said no.
Mike (27:45):
Yeah, I don't know.
Guida (27:47):
Yeah, I think you're wrong.
I know what cancer looks like.
My dad had cancer.
I don't have that.
Right?
That doesn't even make any sense.
Mike (27:55):
No.
Guida (27:55):
Or if you go to a doctor and the doctor says yeah, you
know, I think you have cancer.
You might want to cut down onsmoking, which is what so many
people in the field of addictions do.
Yeah, you have a mildsubstance use disorder.
You might want to cut back onyour drinking, (laugh) right?
We would find a new doctor, andI firmly believe this, Mike.
(28:17):
I know I've, just ad nauseum, we saywe believe it's a disease, but we don't
treat it like we believe it's a disease.
And that infuriates me.
It infuriates me that the peoplein the field are doing such a
bad job addressing the diseases.
The disease of addiction, the diseaseof alcohol use disorder, the disease
(28:39):
of cocaine use disorder, whatever.
It's a disease.
It's a disease.
It's a disease.
It's a disease.
And the making light of addiction.
I just got in a Facebook fight withsomebody, stranger, you know, she
said, I'm a recovering addict, whichis like a knife in my heart, right?
I'm not going to correct you, whatever.
And somebody, Oh, getaddicted to learning.
(29:01):
And I went back to the companyand said, do better, do better.
You can't be addicted tosomething positive, right?
You, you can't, you, yes, you can.
You can't, you're not addicted to learningunless it's causing negative consequences.
Addiction is a disease.
Addiction is a disease.
Addiction is a disease.
And she comes back, this woman,stranger danger, comes back and
says, oh, I have no problem withit because I'm a recovering addict.
(29:24):
And I, and I'm like, Well, that'spart of the problem, right?
That's part of the problem.
If we can't even call I don't know.
I know COVID has changed.
It used to be, what, coronavirus?
Now it's changed.
We change our language and people acceptthat, but for the disease of addiction, we
haven't, it has not been widely accepted.
Mike (29:45):
Well, we change our language to justify our doing nothing.
It's easy, you know, when, when,you know, you mentioned COVID,
when people say, you got the jab.
I already know that there's anagenda for them in their entire life.
So they don't really want totalk about what it does or
whether it's a disease or not.
You know, they're just have a judgment.
So when people say, oh, that'sbullshit, you know, about addiction,
(30:08):
he doesn't have that big a problem.
It's to justify they'renot bringing it up.
Guida (30:12):
Oh my gosh.
I have the best quote.
I jokingly said before we started, I spenttwo years during COVID reading, right?
So I love reading.
I love reading.
And there's a book called, it'sthe third in a series, Everyone
on this Train is a Suspect.
So the first one is EveryoneIn My Family Is a Murderer.
Everyone, oh, this is the second,Everyone on the Train is a Suspect.
(30:33):
Listen to this quote.
Holidays are, after all, mostlyextravagant charades with
which to justify an addiction.
I read that, I underlined it,I sent it to myself last night
so I would remember to say it.
Right?
We can get away with anything, again,because we have this propensity to not
(31:00):
address the elephant in the living room.
We don't talk about theelephant in the living room.
Well, I can't see you.
I can't even get around theelephant in the living room.
How do you want me to not talk about it?
And again, I'm not going to sit thereand it's not going to be the core
conversation, but we have to acknowledgethe elephant in the living room.
(31:24):
Like at least leave it in the livingroom and let's all move into the kitchen.
But we don't.
We just sit there andpretend we don't even see it.
And we can't have relationships whenwe can't see one another and we can't
talk to one another because thisgreat big elephant is sitting there.
And so, for me, that has beena huge change in my life to
(31:45):
say, yeah, not appropriate.
That is not appropriate.
Mike (31:47):
You know, somebody a long time ago told me to keep these
things to around a half an hour.
So, I'll give you this as a wrap.
Guida (31:57):
Idiot!
It was me!
(raises hand) (laugh)
Mike (32:00):
Yeah.
What I also find, and this is a greatway to close this out, is by doing
what you're suggesting, and whileyou might be a maple baseball bat and
I'm a nerf, right, I'm still direct.
Is that when push comes to shove, whenyou do address it, those folks who are
in trouble oftentimes come to you intheir recovery, and the relationship is
(32:24):
incredibly strong because you never B.
S.
them to begin with.
Guida (32:29):
Amen.
Amen.
Yeah.
Mike (32:32):
Oh, all right.
I'll let you have Amenis the last word, right?
Guida (32:36):
(laugh) There you go.
Mike (32:38):
Well let's do this again, but we'll do this before then, but let's do
this again before next Thanksgiving whenwe can talk about Blackout Wednesday,
Drinksgiving, all the way through.
The increase in drunk driving goesup 156%, blah, blah, blah, right?
Because as a society, wedon't recognize it either.
You know, you all know this, as always,there's links to Guided by Guida, and
(33:02):
her resources attached to the podcast.
And you really got to click on it,because her blogs that she writes
are, one, entertaining, informative,and really thought provoking, and
those of you who are professionals,it gives you some really interesting
topics, I think, to talk about withyour colleagues, at the very least.
(33:23):
Thanks so much for sharing thepersonal side of you today, Guida.
We hope all of you can joinus anytime you're able.
Until then, stay safe, stay healthy,and, I don't know, pick a new family.
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