April 16, 2025 • 25 mins
Desilynn Smith lost her husband to drugs in 2021. Her husband, a Black man, belonged to one of the highest demographic groups in our country losing their lives to drugs: older Black men. Desilynn talks about her work with that community and her dedication to doing that work in her husband’s memory. Desilynn is the Executive Director of Uniting Garden Homes, Inc. in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She holds Bachelor’s degrees in Criminal Justice and Special Education and a Master's Degree in Mental Health Counseling, specializing in Substance Abuse Counseling. With over 20 years dedicated to serving her community, she has focused on addressing the injustices within the justice system, advocating for individuals with mental health issues, and tackling community trauma. Uniting Garden Homes, Inc., their many programs, and Desilynn can be reached at https://www.ughinc.org/
The views and opinions of the guests on this podcast are theirs and theirs alone and do not necessarily represent those of the host, Westwords Consulting or the Kenosha County Substance Abuse Coalition.
We're always interested in hearing from individuals or organizations who are working in substance use disorder treatment or prevention, mental health care and other spaces that lift up communities. This includes people living those experiences. If you or someone you know has a story to share or an interesting approach to care, contact us today!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
While substance use disorders don'tdiscriminate, there are some communities
that are hit harder than others.
We're going to talk about one of thosegroups that has lost a disproportionate
(00:32):
number of people to substance usedisorders with our guest Desilynn Smith.
Desilynn is the ExecutiveDirector of Uniting Garden Homes
Incorporated in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
She holds a Bachelor of Science inCriminal Justice, a Bachelor's in
Special Education, a Master's inMental Health Counseling, specializing
in Substance Abuse Counseling.
(00:54):
She has over 20 years dedicatedservice to her community and she is
focused on addressing the injusticeswithin our justice system, advocating
for individuals with mental healthissues, and tackling community trauma.
Welcome, Desilynn.
Hi, hello, hello.
Thanks for having me.
Well, I'm so glad you could join us.
I'm going to start out withsomething that's a little hard,
(01:15):
but we'll get right into it.
A lot of people, contrary to whatsome people may believe, research done
by several metropolitan newspapersshow that the group born between 1951
and 1970 experienced drug fatalityrates higher than any other group,
and older black men died up to 20times the rate of any other subgroup.
(01:39):
And your husband, Hamid, was in thatgroup, and you lost him to drugs in 2021.
Yes.
Fentanyl poisoning.
Yeah, I love the way you put that.
Fentanyl poisoning.
We've changed it, right?
Yes.
Let's stop calling it anoverdose and call it what it is.
Right, right.
Because people don't know, and that's oneof the things that I'm trying to push now
(02:02):
is the education part around people thathave an addiction to cocaine, they're
not expecting to have fentanyl in it.
And I hear people that say,well, they keep going back.
Well, because now that's adifferent addiction to their body
is an opioid that has a differentwithdrawal, a different effect.
(02:24):
So they're not even realizingwhat's going on with their bodies.
They just know now that that withdrawal isvery severe compared to the cocaine one.
So now we're dealingwith a different beast.
And even the people that are wantingopioids, that addiction, they're still
not expecting to get the fentanyl.
(02:46):
Yeah.
Desilynn, when older Black menare lost to drugs at rates 14 to
20 times higher than all peoplenationally, something else is in play.
Is it economics, culture,lack of help, shame?
What do you think it is?
I believe it's a combination ofthe lack of resources, economics
(03:08):
around, if we really look and breakdown those, the economics, as well
as shame that goes with the stigma.
Yeah, I heard you talk about Hamid's shameand how he carried it after his relapse.
Right.
And it was difficult for me.
And that's another reason why Iwanted and appreciate the platforms
(03:31):
because as a, the wife, then Icarry different kind of shame.
And he was not his addiction.
He was not a drug addict.
He was not that, but that's all thathe felt he would be reduced to for all
of the hard work that he had put in.
(03:51):
To rebuild himself andreally show his character.
So now how can I face someonethat has looked up to me?
So it kind of goes back to whereis the support for the helpers?
Who supports the supporters?
And things like that.
So he began to even startwithdrawing from me.
(04:14):
Yeah, well, he probablycarried shame because of what
you do for a living, right?
He didn't want to embarrass you.
And he did, and he said that.
And in the closed doors,I'm like, I don't care.
Like, we need to get help.
I'm going to go with you.
But it really like light bulbs wentoff afterwards because I started
asking myself a lot of questions.
Like, well, why didn't I pushmore for more people to help?
(04:38):
Because then now I'm looking at thesubconscious that I'm not realizing
of my own stigmas that I still heldon to the shame, the guilt, how am
I out here helping everyone elseand can't even help my husband.
What are people going to say aboutme, which I shouldn't have to think
(04:59):
that as well as he shouldn't have.
So then I know that'show other people feel.
Well, you and I, and many people wouldsay, ah, this is a terrible disease.
We don't treat it like a disease.
No.
I mean, we wouldn't be havingthis conversation if he
had relapsed with cancer.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's the nextthing that, you know, is.
(05:20):
I push.
It's like we talk about mental wellness.
Substance abuse is in the DSM 5, thediagnostic tool to diagnose someone with
a mental illness or issue or whateverthey're going through and what is our
mental well being is our thinking.
I don't think anyone that isaddicted thinks very clearly.
(05:44):
That's one of the thingsthat we're teaching.
So to start making these householdwords, the mental wellness,
mental wellness, mental wellness.
And really breaking down whataddiction is, get outside the box.
Addiction does not just mean drugs.
Recovery is not justrelated to drugs or alcohol.
(06:07):
I go to the hospital for a broken arm.
I get a recovery plan for it.
If I do not follow that recoveryplan, my arm will not heal properly.
So people relapse.
My dad was a diabetic.
I tell this story.
He would he did everything.
He was on three shots and a pill.
(06:29):
They followed the regimen.
He went and joined the Y. My momcooked different, everything.
He was off shots and everything.
What did he do?
He relapsed.
He had my mom make him apound cake, his favorite.
And what happened?
Blood sugar shot up.
So when, if we start really talkingabout it, like you put it in layman's
(06:49):
terms, it's just like any otherdisease, cancer, treated as such.
Get us outside the mind frame of justhaving that stigma of addiction goes
with drugs and alcohol because itdoes not and really understand what
the definition of recovery is andwhy it's important to stick to your
(07:10):
recovery plan so you do not relapse.
That's where we really need to getback to or start up, so then people
can start feeling a lot better.
We will look at it thenas a disease, really.
Is there stigma within the Blackcommunity, especially among Black men?
(07:32):
I believe Black men have the biggeststigma, from my experience, in working.
And I don't go into, like, historical,but unfortunately that plays a part.
They're beat up in every which way.
So now, trying to even know whatthe definition of a Black man is.
(07:52):
So now when we have a Black manthat is afflicted with this disease
I can guarantee at least eight,maybe even nine out of 10 have
been through the injustice system.
So now they're beat up even more.
Us as Black women, and I speak as even formyself, a majority of us don't understand
(08:13):
how to build up our own self esteem.
So it's hard to buildup their self esteem.
So now they're treatedunfairly everywhere they go.
They have the shame of what societyhas told us a man is supposed to be.
They don't live up to thatbased on what society says.
(08:35):
But a man is what I'm able to dolike, unless we got to rebuild that.
So I do believe the stigmaof being a Black man is hard.
It's very hard.
In your introduction, I said,you come from special ed.
I did a podcast Desilynn probably abouta year and a half ago with a young
woman who said that if you look atspecial ed kids, or kids in general,
(08:57):
that the same behavior that a girlexhibits in a classroom or a Caucasian
girl exhibits in a classroom is treatedtotally different than if an African
American boy does the same behavior.
Exactly.
And I worked in the schools.
As teacher, and then as I grew in mycareer, I went back and I was working with
(09:22):
Milwaukee public schools for their schoolcommunity partnership for mental health.
And I had a five year old and aneight year old that really stood
out to me and their behaviors.
Again, there were femalesthat exhibited those behaviors
and white males in the class.
Those two, and they want to labelthem so fast without looking
(09:45):
at what is the real root cause.
But that's where I come in.
So I'm going to tell you the root cause.
Have a five year old that doesn't goto sleep till three in the morning,
but then he's up at six in the morning.
Sleep deprivation is the worst thing ever.
That's the worst mental abuse wecould do to ourselves as an adult.
(10:06):
So imagine a five year old, he'sgoing to be fighting his sleep.
His behavior is going to come out.
There's no one reallytrained to reroute that.
Then their experiences are differentbecause that particular five year
old lost an uncle to gun violence.
So now the family, we're now teachingsome trauma because now our trauma is
(10:30):
pushed on to them, where he may noteven understand what's going on, but
now there's a lot of anger in the home.
The eight year old, when I'm workingwith kids, I say, what's going on?
How you doing?
Since the last time Isaw you, oh, I'm good.
Well, what made your week good?
The eight year old looked around,he goes, I didn't hear any gunshots
(10:51):
and nobody I knew got shot.
He's eight.
So how does he know howto handle those emotions?
I don't know how to handlethem half of the time.
So now they're dealt withdifferent situations that they
don't know how to deal with.
There's absolutely really no emotionalregulations taught to teachers.
I went through the class andI'm like, okay, wait a minute.
(11:12):
This is not teaching me howto deal with these kids.
I just know because whatmy other background is.
I just wanted to get into the class.
I don't feel I was effective workingin those classes, and the way they're
set up, and the Black, they'retaught at an early age, and they're
just kind of pushed to the side.
My classrooms will look different,because hey, that's not how you act here.
(11:35):
It's not being fake.
It's not being phony.
There's a time and a place and everything.
I don't act like this on my porch.
I'm, I'm here teaching, so I haveto be the teacher, Ms. Smith.
And it's taught at an early age, andit's sad, it's disheartening and the
way that our country is going now iseven sadder to know, like, the same
(11:58):
fights my mom had in the 50s are fightsthat we're still trying to have it's
unfortunate because Black males do haveto be taught certain different things.
So you look at that age group thatwe're looking at that was raised in
the 60s and the 70s when things werekind of worse for them as treatment.
(12:21):
What outlet did they have?
And then boom, COVID hits.
And then on top of all that, I thinkall men still are told, I'm good,
as you said, don't talk about it.
Well, how do you learn new stuff?
Cause substance use disorders are not aone time through the drive through trip.
There's going to be ups and downs.
So if you're going down thepath of relapse and You're
(12:45):
not talking to your wife,
Right.
You're not talking to your buddies.
You're not going to the meetings, right?
Then how, how do you learn thoseskills to deal with that stuff?
How do I learn a new way of thinking?
And that's when you'reput to the test of time.
That's when your recovery planis going to be put to the test.
How does this work?
(13:06):
It's building boundaries.
But again, like you said, all men,I think, I don't care what race they
are, are taught that you're good.
You don't, you know, none of that.
Like, and I always laugh because.
My dad was a very strong presence.
I had both parents in the homeand I was taught that so to show
emotions was like, No, you're good.
You're good.
(13:27):
You're okay.
You're gonna be okay.
You know, I feel blessed that I wastaught coping mechanisms, though.
It was kind of a twofold.
You're good.
But now what do you needto do to get better?
That's what was taught.
So that's how I work.
But that is so true withlike, so there's no, and then
there's no support afterwards.
(13:48):
You go, treatment is almost treatedlike, this is what I gotta do but then
half of the providers don't know whatto do, how to deal with certain things,
because it's not a cookie cutter.
Unfortunately, we have a cookiecutter book, but the book wasn't
written for the Black males.
(14:08):
I mean, that's, it was notstudied on a Black males.
One of the biggest things that theytook most of our practices from was
Vietnam back when Huron first started.
So I started researching, I'm like,look, this is the same thing, but
a Vietnam man is totally differentthan an African American man, Black
male, whatever you want to call it.
(14:30):
Born in between the sixtiesand seventies or late fifties.
You know what I'm saying?
So the practitioner needs to learn anddevelop ways to learn that individual
that they're working with to make it fit.
The evidence base is awesome, but theevidence base was not driven off of
Black males or the Black culture, period.
(14:53):
It was not, and it's no shockto it because I love it.
I love the guide.
It's a guide for me.
So I learned my foundation, but then Ihave to learn the culture that I'm working
with, which I've worked with Hispanics,Latinos, white males, white women, but
everybody, I cannot use the same approach.
(15:16):
That's right.
I can't, you know, and that's whatelse needs to be taught in these
schools when people go through.
(chuckle)
That's what you all at UnitingGarden Homes are trying to do, right?
I mean, it's a really unique place.
Talk about what you all do.
So we are a community based organization.
(15:38):
It started with I'm gonna sayhis name, Joe Bova, right?
I love Joe.
And he's the unofficial mayor ofthe Garden Homes area in Milwaukee.
And he had the idea he reallywants to help his community.
So building off of him, when I cameon board, I went and talked to him
about the mental wellness piece.
Joe is a tough cookie, and people like,no, you don't want to talk to him.
(16:01):
I said, well, I got to, I have toplead my case because I still give
very much homage and respect tohim for starting this organization.
He was no longer with it, but if I'm goingto step up to the plate, I want to live
in his shoes and I let them know that.
The importance of mental wellness,what it meant to me, as well as
how it dominoes affect everything.
(16:22):
You will never end or talk aboutinterrupting violence without
talking about mental wellness.
You will never stop addictionor interrupt that cycle without
talking about mental wellness.
So we formed it.
So now we now have a training academy thatwe do substance abuse counselor training.
(16:42):
And that's my main focusout every class at the end.
We talk about now, how areyou going to apply this?
We do unique things.
We do a lot of informal sessions here.
That's one thing to getbring people together.
If I don't think it's something I haveto do or it's a treatment that you're
going to be building my insurance foror telling somebody because that's
(17:06):
another thing why people won't gethelp because now it's on my insurance.
Yep.
And that's a track recordand they use it against us.
And that's sad.
And that keeps a lot ofpeople from getting help.
We also do communityviolence interruption.
We have a critical response teamhere, and we actually go out.
We're doing a pop up next week out onone of our busiest, I say busiest blocks.
(17:30):
27th and Atkinson in Milwaukee.
Some people call it the hot spot area.
We don't care.
We go to the people becauseit's hard to get the people to
come to us just out the gate.
So we want to show thatpresence when we go out.
We give out some things, of course,food because we love to eat.
And then we just do trainingsaround mental health first day.
(17:53):
We do a gun safety training.
We just have on board a national firearmsafety instructor and we've just developed
one for kids, a safety class for kids.
So now we're just putting thattogether so we could go out in the
community because unfortunately, allof those things is like a circle.
(18:15):
We will not.
So we have to kind of... We'renot trying to save the world.
We're trying to get to the people wecould get to and whoever will listen
because eventually we do believe that'sgoing to be the infectious disease, the
positivity to show that we're here andwe go out in the winter months because
we don't want to just show up in thesummer and then hibernate in the winter.
(18:39):
We want to be out there.
So it's a slow build.
We have a lot of supportwithin the stakeholders in this
area that we're actually in.
We're looking to expand.
I work very closely with theCounty of Milwaukee, with their
Better Ways To Cope grant.
(18:59):
So that's been a huge support for me.
And getting out there, just,we just got to get out there.
They're not going to come to our door,that shame, that guilt, the embarrassment.
They're not going to come to us.
So we go to them with a smile andhere you go, I don't care, take
it, whatever, here secretly handingoff cards and then they call.
(19:21):
I got to ask you because ofthe time we're living in.
The funding, you mentioned someof it, the county working with the
grants, but you got to be concerned.
Very concerned.
I'm extremely concerned.
I do have a federal grant from, it'sa cohort that they started through
City United and the CAPS grant, whichhave been very good to me for that.
(19:47):
We have started our behavioral healthclinic, which will kind of really be good,
but now the Medicaid is being threatened.
So yeah, I'm a bit worried.
I'm a bit worried on that tip and mostlyfor the employees I've had to lay off.
(20:08):
I lost funding from the city hereformerly Office of Violence Prevention
at OCWS, they pulled everything fromus which really they didn't fund my
organization, but they did pay my staff.
So that got pulled.
I'm unsure of how that's going to go.
So yeah, I'm worried mostlyfor the people that I employ.
(20:33):
Because I only employ high riskindividuals that wouldn't have an
opportunity any other place and we workthrough every obstacle that we can.
So yeah making it a safe place.
So yeah, the concern is there.
And you know Desilynn you and Iknow this and I think people who
(20:53):
listen to the program know this.
The alternative is more expensive.
Relapse is more expensive.
Incarceration is more expensive.
If community programs go away, it'snot like the drugs are going away.
Not at all.
Yeah.
Cause unfortunately thecommunity isn't making the drugs.
They're getting in somehow.
I mean, fighting a border, it doesn'tmatter because it's the wrong border
(21:17):
'cause the fentanyl's coming from China.
So it's, I mean, you know what I'm saying?
It's like everywhere you lookor every... My mom used to say
locks are made for honest people.
You could build all of these rulesall you on to, but unless we have
something to help the people inneed, it's going to get worse.
(21:39):
I didn't learn even the work that I dountil my husband died, that the 06 zip
code was the hardest hit in Milwaukee.
Not only was it the hardest hit, Blackmales was the hardest hit, but we had
the lack of access to the resources,the lack of knowledge of even I didn't
(22:00):
have the knowledge, which was hurtful.
And I sat and I think I was talking tohim like, well, what do I do with this?
Like.
This is just ridiculous.
So I started making calls and whatwas kind of disheartening to me
in Milwaukee is my biggest supportcame from Madison, Wisconsin.
Wisconsin Voices For Recovery.
(22:21):
That was my biggest support.
That's who brought Narcan down.
That's who educated me on it.
That's who allowed me to goout and get it put in bars.
Like whoever would listen to me,I did the pavement, did the work.
They were my biggest supporters.
I'm sorry.
That's Madison.
That's hours 45 minutes away.
(22:42):
But right here in Milwaukee, wehave things and resources that it
was hard for me to get access to,and no slight intended to anyone.
I don't know what they're reasoning.
I don't know what their job.
I don't know their reasoning.
I just know that my efforts to getthat support and resources was halted.
(23:03):
I had to go all the way to Madison,Wisconsin, and they, to this day,
still support me on everything.
They will come downand do an event for me.
They will support myevents around everything.
So I just been like, okay,but that was disheartening.
That here, right, we have awhole city health department.
(23:24):
You get this data.
You should have been out onthese blocks before me, so
yeah, so I just still go out.
We're actually going out.
It's going to be nice here tomorrow.
We'll be passing out educationalmaterial cards and Narcan.
We really talk though, becausewe can hand you a piece of paper.
(23:49):
Are you going to read it?
Maybe, but so we have those conversations.
Yep.
And for those of you listening in otherparts of the country, when Desilynn
says, it's going to be nice heretomorrow, she means 36 and not snowing.
(laugh)
(laugh) Well, actually, I think it'sgoing to be 50 in Milwaukee tomorrow.
Let's have a, have a, we'll have a picnic.
Yeah!
(24:10):
I know that you do this in honor of Hamid.
I'll let you go with this.
I love the line in your bio because itfits with what you're talking about.
Committed to being theadvocate that she once needed.
Yep.
Yes.
And I come from a very supportive family.
(24:30):
Unfortunately for that familyline, mental wellness and substance
abuse was not talked about.
It was there, was not talked about.
So when I first actually got intothe work because of my son, which
is Hamid's son, started dealingwith some mental wellness issues, as
well as some substance abuse issues.
(24:51):
I didn't know where to turn and it wasgood, bad and ugly for where I had to go.
And I just want to make sure people havethe best experience ever, and we tackle
those bad experiences the best that I can.
Oh, that's great.
What a great way to end this.
Desilynn, I could talk to you all day.
(25:12):
Thank you.
Thanks for your story,your dedication, your work.
For those of you listening and watching,I hope you find support where you are.
We thank you for listening.
Be safe.
And as Desilynn would say, you might begood, but what can you do to be better?
(laugh) That's right.
Thanks.
Welcome, everybody.
This is Avoiding the AddictionAffliction brought to you by Westwords
Consulting and the Kenosha CountySubstance Use Disorder Coalition.
I'm Mike McGowan.
While substance use disorders don'tdiscriminate, there are some communities
that are hit harder than others.
We're going to talk about one of thosegroups that has lost a disproportionate
(00:32):
number of people to substance usedisorders with our guest Desilynn Smith.
Desilynn is the ExecutiveDirector of Uniting Garden Homes
Incorporated in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
She holds a Bachelor of Science inCriminal Justice, a Bachelor's in
Special Education, a Master's inMental Health Counseling, specializing
in Substance Abuse Counseling.
(00:54):
She has over 20 years dedicatedservice to her community and she is
focused on addressing the injusticeswithin our justice system, advocating
for individuals with mental healthissues, and tackling community trauma.
Welcome, Desilynn.
Hi, hello, hello.
Thanks for having me.
Well, I'm so glad you could join us.
I'm going to start out withsomething that's a little hard,
(01:15):
but we'll get right into it.
A lot of people, contrary to whatsome people may believe, research done
by several metropolitan newspapersshow that the group born between 1951
and 1970 experienced drug fatalityrates higher than any other group,
and older black men died up to 20times the rate of any other subgroup.
(01:39):
And your husband, Hamid, was in thatgroup, and you lost him to drugs in 2021.
Yes.
Fentanyl poisoning.
Yeah, I love the way you put that.
Fentanyl poisoning.
We've changed it, right?
Yes.
Let's stop calling it anoverdose and call it what it is.
Right, right.
Because people don't know, and that's oneof the things that I'm trying to push now
(02:02):
is the education part around people thathave an addiction to cocaine, they're
not expecting to have fentanyl in it.
And I hear people that say,well, they keep going back.
Well, because now that's adifferent addiction to their body
is an opioid that has a differentwithdrawal, a different effect.
(02:24):
So they're not even realizingwhat's going on with their bodies.
They just know now that that withdrawal isvery severe compared to the cocaine one.
So now we're dealingwith a different beast.
And even the people that are wantingopioids, that addiction, they're still
not expecting to get the fentanyl.
(02:46):
Yeah.
Desilynn, when older Black menare lost to drugs at rates 14 to
20 times higher than all peoplenationally, something else is in play.
Is it economics, culture,lack of help, shame?
What do you think it is?
I believe it's a combination ofthe lack of resources, economics
(03:08):
around, if we really look and breakdown those, the economics, as well
as shame that goes with the stigma.
Yeah, I heard you talk about Hamid's shameand how he carried it after his relapse.
Right.
And it was difficult for me.
And that's another reason why Iwanted and appreciate the platforms
(03:31):
because as a, the wife, then Icarry different kind of shame.
And he was not his addiction.
He was not a drug addict.
He was not that, but that's all thathe felt he would be reduced to for all
of the hard work that he had put in.
(03:51):
To rebuild himself andreally show his character.
So now how can I face someonethat has looked up to me?
So it kind of goes back to whereis the support for the helpers?
Who supports the supporters?
And things like that.
So he began to even startwithdrawing from me.
(04:14):
Yeah, well, he probablycarried shame because of what
you do for a living, right?
He didn't want to embarrass you.
And he did, and he said that.
And in the closed doors,I'm like, I don't care.
Like, we need to get help.
I'm going to go with you.
But it really like light bulbs wentoff afterwards because I started
asking myself a lot of questions.
Like, well, why didn't I pushmore for more people to help?
(04:38):
Because then now I'm looking at thesubconscious that I'm not realizing
of my own stigmas that I still heldon to the shame, the guilt, how am
I out here helping everyone elseand can't even help my husband.
What are people going to say aboutme, which I shouldn't have to think
(04:59):
that as well as he shouldn't have.
So then I know that'show other people feel.
Well, you and I, and many people wouldsay, ah, this is a terrible disease.
We don't treat it like a disease.
No.
I mean, we wouldn't be havingthis conversation if he
had relapsed with cancer.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that's the nextthing that, you know, is.
(05:20):
I push.
It's like we talk about mental wellness.
Substance abuse is in the DSM 5, thediagnostic tool to diagnose someone with
a mental illness or issue or whateverthey're going through and what is our
mental well being is our thinking.
I don't think anyone that isaddicted thinks very clearly.
(05:44):
That's one of the thingsthat we're teaching.
So to start making these householdwords, the mental wellness,
mental wellness, mental wellness.
And really breaking down whataddiction is, get outside the box.
Addiction does not just mean drugs.
Recovery is not justrelated to drugs or alcohol.
(06:07):
I go to the hospital for a broken arm.
I get a recovery plan for it.
If I do not follow that recoveryplan, my arm will not heal properly.
So people relapse.
My dad was a diabetic.
I tell this story.
He would he did everything.
He was on three shots and a pill.
(06:29):
They followed the regimen.
He went and joined the Y. My momcooked different, everything.
He was off shots and everything.
What did he do?
He relapsed.
He had my mom make him apound cake, his favorite.
And what happened?
Blood sugar shot up.
So when, if we start really talkingabout it, like you put it in layman's
(06:49):
terms, it's just like any otherdisease, cancer, treated as such.
Get us outside the mind frame of justhaving that stigma of addiction goes
with drugs and alcohol because itdoes not and really understand what
the definition of recovery is andwhy it's important to stick to your
(07:10):
recovery plan so you do not relapse.
That's where we really need to getback to or start up, so then people
can start feeling a lot better.
We will look at it thenas a disease, really.
Is there stigma within the Blackcommunity, especially among Black men?
(07:32):
I believe Black men have the biggeststigma, from my experience, in working.
And I don't go into, like, historical,but unfortunately that plays a part.
They're beat up in every which way.
So now, trying to even know whatthe definition of a Black man is.
(07:52):
So now when we have a Black manthat is afflicted with this disease
I can guarantee at least eight,maybe even nine out of 10 have
been through the injustice system.
So now they're beat up even more.
Us as Black women, and I speak as even formyself, a majority of us don't understand
(08:13):
how to build up our own self esteem.
So it's hard to buildup their self esteem.
So now they're treatedunfairly everywhere they go.
They have the shame of what societyhas told us a man is supposed to be.
They don't live up to thatbased on what society says.
(08:35):
But a man is what I'm able to dolike, unless we got to rebuild that.
So I do believe the stigmaof being a Black man is hard.
It's very hard.
In your introduction, I said,you come from special ed.
I did a podcast Desilynn probably abouta year and a half ago with a young
woman who said that if you look atspecial ed kids, or kids in general,
(08:57):
that the same behavior that a girlexhibits in a classroom or a Caucasian
girl exhibits in a classroom is treatedtotally different than if an African
American boy does the same behavior.
Exactly.
And I worked in the schools.
As teacher, and then as I grew in mycareer, I went back and I was working with
(09:22):
Milwaukee public schools for their schoolcommunity partnership for mental health.
And I had a five year old and aneight year old that really stood
out to me and their behaviors.
Again, there were femalesthat exhibited those behaviors
and white males in the class.
Those two, and they want to labelthem so fast without looking
(09:45):
at what is the real root cause.
But that's where I come in.
So I'm going to tell you the root cause.
Have a five year old that doesn't goto sleep till three in the morning,
but then he's up at six in the morning.
Sleep deprivation is the worst thing ever.
That's the worst mental abuse wecould do to ourselves as an adult.
(10:06):
So imagine a five year old, he'sgoing to be fighting his sleep.
His behavior is going to come out.
There's no one reallytrained to reroute that.
Then their experiences are differentbecause that particular five year
old lost an uncle to gun violence.
So now the family, we're now teachingsome trauma because now our trauma is
(10:30):
pushed on to them, where he may noteven understand what's going on, but
now there's a lot of anger in the home.
The eight year old, when I'm workingwith kids, I say, what's going on?
How you doing?
Since the last time Isaw you, oh, I'm good.
Well, what made your week good?
The eight year old looked around,he goes, I didn't hear any gunshots
(10:51):
and nobody I knew got shot.
He's eight.
So how does he know howto handle those emotions?
I don't know how to handlethem half of the time.
So now they're dealt withdifferent situations that they
don't know how to deal with.
There's absolutely really no emotionalregulations taught to teachers.
I went through the class andI'm like, okay, wait a minute.
(11:12):
This is not teaching me howto deal with these kids.
I just know because whatmy other background is.
I just wanted to get into the class.
I don't feel I was effective workingin those classes, and the way they're
set up, and the Black, they'retaught at an early age, and they're
just kind of pushed to the side.
My classrooms will look different,because hey, that's not how you act here.
(11:35):
It's not being fake.
It's not being phony.
There's a time and a place and everything.
I don't act like this on my porch.
I'm, I'm here teaching, so I haveto be the teacher, Ms. Smith.
And it's taught at an early age, andit's sad, it's disheartening and the
way that our country is going now iseven sadder to know, like, the same
(11:58):
fights my mom had in the 50s are fightsthat we're still trying to have it's
unfortunate because Black males do haveto be taught certain different things.
So you look at that age group thatwe're looking at that was raised in
the 60s and the 70s when things werekind of worse for them as treatment.
(12:21):
What outlet did they have?
And then boom, COVID hits.
And then on top of all that, I thinkall men still are told, I'm good,
as you said, don't talk about it.
Well, how do you learn new stuff?
Cause substance use disorders are not aone time through the drive through trip.
There's going to be ups and downs.
So if you're going down thepath of relapse and You're
(12:45):
not talking to your wife,
Right.
You're not talking to your buddies.
You're not going to the meetings, right?
Then how, how do you learn thoseskills to deal with that stuff?
How do I learn a new way of thinking?
And that's when you'reput to the test of time.
That's when your recovery planis going to be put to the test.
How does this work?
(13:06):
It's building boundaries.
But again, like you said, all men,I think, I don't care what race they
are, are taught that you're good.
You don't, you know, none of that.
Like, and I always laugh because.
My dad was a very strong presence.
I had both parents in the homeand I was taught that so to show
emotions was like, No, you're good.
You're good.
(13:27):
You're okay.
You're gonna be okay.
You know, I feel blessed that I wastaught coping mechanisms, though.
It was kind of a twofold.
You're good.
But now what do you needto do to get better?
That's what was taught.
So that's how I work.
But that is so true withlike, so there's no, and then
there's no support afterwards.
(13:48):
You go, treatment is almost treatedlike, this is what I gotta do but then
half of the providers don't know whatto do, how to deal with certain things,
because it's not a cookie cutter.
Unfortunately, we have a cookiecutter book, but the book wasn't
written for the Black males.
(14:08):
I mean, that's, it was notstudied on a Black males.
One of the biggest things that theytook most of our practices from was
Vietnam back when Huron first started.
So I started researching, I'm like,look, this is the same thing, but
a Vietnam man is totally differentthan an African American man, Black
male, whatever you want to call it.
(14:30):
Born in between the sixtiesand seventies or late fifties.
You know what I'm saying?
So the practitioner needs to learn anddevelop ways to learn that individual
that they're working with to make it fit.
The evidence base is awesome, but theevidence base was not driven off of
Black males or the Black culture, period.
(14:53):
It was not, and it's no shockto it because I love it.
I love the guide.
It's a guide for me.
So I learned my foundation, but then Ihave to learn the culture that I'm working
with, which I've worked with Hispanics,Latinos, white males, white women, but
everybody, I cannot use the same approach.
(15:16):
That's right.
I can't, you know, and that's whatelse needs to be taught in these
schools when people go through.
(chuckle)
That's what you all at UnitingGarden Homes are trying to do, right?
I mean, it's a really unique place.
Talk about what you all do.
So we are a community based organization.
(15:38):
It started with I'm gonna sayhis name, Joe Bova, right?
I love Joe.
And he's the unofficial mayor ofthe Garden Homes area in Milwaukee.
And he had the idea he reallywants to help his community.
So building off of him, when I cameon board, I went and talked to him
about the mental wellness piece.
Joe is a tough cookie, and people like,no, you don't want to talk to him.
(16:01):
I said, well, I got to, I have toplead my case because I still give
very much homage and respect tohim for starting this organization.
He was no longer with it, but if I'm goingto step up to the plate, I want to live
in his shoes and I let them know that.
The importance of mental wellness,what it meant to me, as well as
how it dominoes affect everything.
(16:22):
You will never end or talk aboutinterrupting violence without
talking about mental wellness.
You will never stop addictionor interrupt that cycle without
talking about mental wellness.
So we formed it.
So now we now have a training academy thatwe do substance abuse counselor training.
(16:42):
And that's my main focusout every class at the end.
We talk about now, how areyou going to apply this?
We do unique things.
We do a lot of informal sessions here.
That's one thing to getbring people together.
If I don't think it's something I haveto do or it's a treatment that you're
going to be building my insurance foror telling somebody because that's
(17:06):
another thing why people won't gethelp because now it's on my insurance.
Yep.
And that's a track recordand they use it against us.
And that's sad.
And that keeps a lot ofpeople from getting help.
We also do communityviolence interruption.
We have a critical response teamhere, and we actually go out.
We're doing a pop up next week out onone of our busiest, I say busiest blocks.
(17:30):
27th and Atkinson in Milwaukee.
Some people call it the hot spot area.
We don't care.
We go to the people becauseit's hard to get the people to
come to us just out the gate.
So we want to show thatpresence when we go out.
We give out some things, of course,food because we love to eat.
And then we just do trainingsaround mental health first day.
(17:53):
We do a gun safety training.
We just have on board a national firearmsafety instructor and we've just developed
one for kids, a safety class for kids.
So now we're just putting thattogether so we could go out in the
community because unfortunately, allof those things is like a circle.
(18:15):
We will not.
So we have to kind of... We'renot trying to save the world.
We're trying to get to the people wecould get to and whoever will listen
because eventually we do believe that'sgoing to be the infectious disease, the
positivity to show that we're here andwe go out in the winter months because
we don't want to just show up in thesummer and then hibernate in the winter.
(18:39):
We want to be out there.
So it's a slow build.
We have a lot of supportwithin the stakeholders in this
area that we're actually in.
We're looking to expand.
I work very closely with theCounty of Milwaukee, with their
Better Ways To Cope grant.
(18:59):
So that's been a huge support for me.
And getting out there, just,we just got to get out there.
They're not going to come to our door,that shame, that guilt, the embarrassment.
They're not going to come to us.
So we go to them with a smile andhere you go, I don't care, take
it, whatever, here secretly handingoff cards and then they call.
(19:21):
I got to ask you because ofthe time we're living in.
The funding, you mentioned someof it, the county working with the
grants, but you got to be concerned.
Very concerned.
I'm extremely concerned.
I do have a federal grant from, it'sa cohort that they started through
City United and the CAPS grant, whichhave been very good to me for that.
(19:47):
We have started our behavioral healthclinic, which will kind of really be good,
but now the Medicaid is being threatened.
So yeah, I'm a bit worried.
I'm a bit worried on that tip and mostlyfor the employees I've had to lay off.
(20:08):
I lost funding from the city hereformerly Office of Violence Prevention
at OCWS, they pulled everything fromus which really they didn't fund my
organization, but they did pay my staff.
So that got pulled.
I'm unsure of how that's going to go.
So yeah, I'm worried mostlyfor the people that I employ.
(20:33):
Because I only employ high riskindividuals that wouldn't have an
opportunity any other place and we workthrough every obstacle that we can.
So yeah making it a safe place.
So yeah, the concern is there.
And you know Desilynn you and Iknow this and I think people who
(20:53):
listen to the program know this.
The alternative is more expensive.
Relapse is more expensive.
Incarceration is more expensive.
If community programs go away, it'snot like the drugs are going away.
Not at all.
Yeah.
Cause unfortunately thecommunity isn't making the drugs.
They're getting in somehow.
I mean, fighting a border, it doesn'tmatter because it's the wrong border
(21:17):
'cause the fentanyl's coming from China.
So it's, I mean, you know what I'm saying?
It's like everywhere you lookor every... My mom used to say
locks are made for honest people.
You could build all of these rulesall you on to, but unless we have
something to help the people inneed, it's going to get worse.
(21:39):
I didn't learn even the work that I dountil my husband died, that the 06 zip
code was the hardest hit in Milwaukee.
Not only was it the hardest hit, Blackmales was the hardest hit, but we had
the lack of access to the resources,the lack of knowledge of even I didn't
(22:00):
have the knowledge, which was hurtful.
And I sat and I think I was talking tohim like, well, what do I do with this?
Like.
This is just ridiculous.
So I started making calls and whatwas kind of disheartening to me
in Milwaukee is my biggest supportcame from Madison, Wisconsin.
Wisconsin Voices For Recovery.
(22:21):
That was my biggest support.
That's who brought Narcan down.
That's who educated me on it.
That's who allowed me to goout and get it put in bars.
Like whoever would listen to me,I did the pavement, did the work.
They were my biggest supporters.
I'm sorry.
That's Madison.
That's hours 45 minutes away.
(22:42):
But right here in Milwaukee, wehave things and resources that it
was hard for me to get access to,and no slight intended to anyone.
I don't know what they're reasoning.
I don't know what their job.
I don't know their reasoning.
I just know that my efforts to getthat support and resources was halted.
(23:03):
I had to go all the way to Madison,Wisconsin, and they, to this day,
still support me on everything.
They will come downand do an event for me.
They will support myevents around everything.
So I just been like, okay,but that was disheartening.
That here, right, we have awhole city health department.
(23:24):
You get this data.
You should have been out onthese blocks before me, so
yeah, so I just still go out.
We're actually going out.
It's going to be nice here tomorrow.
We'll be passing out educationalmaterial cards and Narcan.
We really talk though, becausewe can hand you a piece of paper.
(23:49):
Are you going to read it?
Maybe, but so we have those conversations.
Yep.
And for those of you listening in otherparts of the country, when Desilynn
says, it's going to be nice heretomorrow, she means 36 and not snowing.
(laugh)
(laugh) Well, actually, I think it'sgoing to be 50 in Milwaukee tomorrow.
Let's have a, have a, we'll have a picnic.
Yeah!
(24:10):
I know that you do this in honor of Hamid.
I'll let you go with this.
I love the line in your bio because itfits with what you're talking about.
Committed to being theadvocate that she once needed.
Yep.
Yes.
And I come from a very supportive family.
(24:30):
Unfortunately for that familyline, mental wellness and substance
abuse was not talked about.
It was there, was not talked about.
So when I first actually got intothe work because of my son, which
is Hamid's son, started dealingwith some mental wellness issues, as
well as some substance abuse issues.
(24:51):
I didn't know where to turn and it wasgood, bad and ugly for where I had to go.
And I just want to make sure people havethe best experience ever, and we tackle
those bad experiences the best that I can.
Oh, that's great.
What a great way to end this.
Desilynn, I could talk to you all day.
(25:12):
Thank you.
Thanks for your story,your dedication, your work.
For those of you listening and watching,I hope you find support where you are.
We thank you for listening.
Be safe.
And as Desilynn would say, you might begood, but what can you do to be better?
(laugh) That's right.
Thanks.
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