February 1, 2019 • 16 mins
In this episode, Barry Rosenzweig explores the subject of family law with Jolene D. Vicchiollo of Baker Vicchiollo Law Firm. This is episode one of three episodes on this subject.
Barry Rosenzweig can be reached at barry@barrylaw.comand Jolene D. Vicchiollo can be reached at jolene@mnlaw.us.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Divorce custody, paternity alimony.
These are all emotionallycharged and complicated concepts
that arise in family law, whichis the subject of today's show,
part three of three episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the barrylaw legal podcast.
Barry Rosenzweig has been anattorney for over 25 years and
is nationally known as avisionary in his profession, in
each episode.
Attorney Barry Rosenzweiginterviews, lawyers, real estate
agents, lenders, and otherprofessionals that bring poularr
legal related topics into focusfor his listeners.
(00:34):
So get ready for an educationaland exciting episode.
Now here's your host, BarryRosenzweig.
We're in the studio today, withJo Vicello and we are going to
be talking about family law.
What do you like about familylaw?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Why do you like being a family law attorney?
It's never ever dull, ever,ever, right?
There's always, it's sointeresting and sometimes
stories are in cases thingshappen.
You think if I wrote a book andput this, nobody would believe
it.
Yeah.
What I like about family law, isI like, and this sounds kind of
hokey, but there is such a senseof satisfaction when you see
(01:11):
your client coming in at thebeginning and they're in trauma
and grief and sadness andfearful and you walk them
through the process, and at theend you can see a different
person.
I can think of a case, I had awoman in and this this case went
to trial at least 10 or 12 yearsago.
(01:31):
She was this meek, meek littleperson and her husband was just
a jerk and I'll use thevernacular.
She was just beside herself andso we walked through the whole
process and at the end she was adifferent person.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
She wasn't living with that demeaning person
anymore.
She knew that financially theyhad enough money that she would
get a decent settlement and justto see the relief.
So I really like helping people,walk through that process and to
know this is a trauma in yourlife.
We'll walk through it together,but you're going to be okay in
(02:10):
the end.
Right?
It doesn't mean there's notgrief and sadness and anger and
that sort of thing.
I like to see it from beginningto end, right.
How the process gets taken out.
Plus the interesting stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
stuff is there, is there, um, either you recommend
or a judge will recommended ormandated that they have to have
either family counseling ormarital counseling to try to
reconcile or some people justwant to reconcile, try marriage
counseling and the time,
Speaker 3 (02:42):
right.
Judges don't order and I don'tthink they have the authority to
order marriage counseling, butthey can order parties into
anger management.
Um, they can order them intotherapy for themselves.
They can order the kids to go totherapy.
They can order a chemical healthassessment if there are about
chemical dependency.
Um, so the court has authorityto do those types of things.
(03:04):
Um, they can, they can orderfamily counseling to say, you
know, the, the communicationdynamics are so poor and we want
you to go, you know, so they cando those type of things, do some
things.
People on their own decide, youknow what this is.
We we're going to try toreconcile and let's go through
counseling and see what we cando.
And sometimes that works.
Sometimes it does.
Yeah.
(03:24):
And then they might come backwith a postnup.
Right.
You know, just the here, right?
Yeah.
But yeah, that, that's not, Ithink I have a couple of cases
on inactive status right now.
Meaning they're trying to figureout, do we want to, you know, we
started this process, we seewhat it might look like for us.
Oh, we're having second thoughtshere.
You know, what aboutgrandparent's rights?
So there's a statute regardinggrandparents' rights and it's
(03:48):
just really specific.
Um, you see it if grandparentsyou, I'll tell you what I see.
Typically if grandparents wantto have some type of visitation,
cause it's not really parentingtime with the grandkids, most
judges will say you need to dothat during your child's
parenting time.
So if it's dad's parents andthey want to see the kid, the
judge will say, okay, then whendad has his parenting time, you
(04:10):
have to do that.
Um, but sometimes in cases, um,a court will order.
I had a case and it went totrial with, uh, with the grandma
and she had spent, the kid hadlived with her or the kid was
eight and previously had livedwith her for a period of time.
And so that grandmothers siteparenting time aside for mom and
aside from dead and the judgedid grant her one weekend a
(04:32):
month that she had parentingtime.
But it's not, um, it's oftendifficult for grandparents cause
they want to see theirgrandkids.
And then, um, if there's, uh, ifit's really tense between the
parents, one parent might say,well, you're not seeing the
grandkids.
We see that on a fairly regularbasis where, um, you know, to
kind of punish Daddy, they'renot going to let grandma and
Grandpa's see the kid.
(04:53):
Um, what is your thoughts andopinions and on the, uh, the
biggest divorce him all the timecoming up here with Jeff Bezos
and his wife with Amazon.
Can you even imagine right nowyou think there'd be
confidential?
You know, so we oftentimes ifthere for financial, we'll do
what's called a protectiveorder, a meeting that nobody
gets to see these documents.
(05:15):
Um, you know, like I had a casewhere, um, the husband had a
ownership in a significantMinnesota business, right.
And, uh, divorce records arepublic information, you know, so
most people, all right, so goingonto your local corner, look up
your neighbor or, um, I don'tthink, are those granted very
(05:36):
well if you agree to it.
So like in that case, the twoattorneys and the two parties
stipulated to a protective ordersaying that all financial
information, because we neededto determine what's the marital
value of the business, right?
Because it was an asset husbandwas going to receive.
So wife needed to have an offsetfor another marital, but they
don't want their documents andwafer greet.
(05:56):
She didn't want everything allover.
Um, so we signed a protectiveorder, which kept that out of,
uh, the, you know, the publiceyes, they can't see it in those
documents can be released.
Some things can be filedconfidentially.
Um, so that's another way to dothat.
But I would bet there's going tobe all kinds of, you know,
stipulations related tosettlement and documents and you
(06:18):
know, that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1 (06:19):
you know, to go on and think about this then about
businesses.
A lot of spouses own businesstogether.
Yes.
Sometimes one spouse owns it alltogether.
One spouse owns it with apartner or two or you know, what
happens in those situations is,I mean, and I think with the
Amazon situation is a big partof the fight, if you know, is
(06:44):
gonna be about voting shares.
Right.
Who has control, right?
So how do you, how does thatwork with businesses
Speaker 3 (06:50):
records and someone who owns damn as I know, but no,
it's really so, um, when you area part of a divorce, his assets
and liabilities, I think we onlygot to the first part, the um,
uh, custody and parent time.
And then we talked about childsupport and spousal, but the
third part of a divorce or isthe division of assets and
liabilities.
So what you do is you identifyevery asset.
(07:11):
It could be a 401k, it could bea cabin, it could be a boat, it
could be a business.
And so what happens is we haveeasy methods for some things to
figure out a value of an asset.
What's, what's your most recent401k statement?
Here's the value.
Very easy.
How much money do you have inyour bank account?
That's easy.
A little bit more difficult aswhat's the value of a home, you
(07:33):
know, unless the parties agreed,then we have appraisals done and
say, okay, if there's a disputeabout the value of the home, um,
I think at the top of the list,our businesses.
So I on a regular basis higher,they're a business evaluator.
Um, there's one in particularthat I'd like to use in Mendota
heights and they do a businessvaluation.
They can be pricey, 10 to 15grand, but they go in and
(07:55):
they'll take it,
Speaker 1 (07:55):
the wireless, I mean, if it's a small, small business,
no.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
If it's a small business, and I, I've also hired
this firm to say, look, this isthe nature.
If I give you last year's profitand loss, is it worth it to do a
business valuation?
They'll say no.
Or you know, that sort of thingbecause he probably could give
you some kind of a yeah.
And the, the, this far fromthat, I heard they're all CPA's.
Right?
Okay.
And that, and their work isvaluing businesses and they do
some non-marital tracing.
(08:20):
Um, so what you're looking forin a business valuation is we
need to assign a value to thisasset.
So how do we do that?
Some, it's not worth the money.
Some zero.
Like if the person, it's theperson, it's the blue sky value,
right.
That, that without will get,Yup.
Same thing.
Right.
So, um, you just don't reallyspend a lot of time on it or, or
(08:41):
all they have is their computer.
Right?
Right.
But then you have, you have anengineering firm or I've had
medical practices valued ordental practices or you know,
those types of things.
And that's when we hire a, uh,uh, business valuator to do the
business value spouse.
Is that just like any otherasset for a spouse then?
(09:01):
Yes, for both spouses,regardless if they're an owner
of that are not on paper.
Right, right.
Because they have a maritalinterest in it.
So if it was started, so if youhad a business that was started
during the marriage andcontinued through the marriage,
part of it is non-marital andpart of it is marital and that
business valuator figures thatout.
Um, if it was, if there's apartnership and it was started
during the marriage, thebusiness, it's all marital, but
(09:24):
then what is, um, spouses,what's the value of his or her
share?
So are they a 50% owner?
The business is worth, you know,a hundred grand, 50%.
It's$50,000 is and that 50,000goes on the balance sheet and
then, you know, to figure itout.
So it's just like any otherasset, you just have to assign a
value to other partners.
(09:45):
Sometimes I'm, it dependsusually if there's loans, right?
So usually they'll launch aretaking into consideration and
figuring out the value.
Um, most typically the personwho worked in the business as a
ward of the business.
Right.
And so there's really, they justcontinue running the business as
it was.
Um, and um, you know, going fromthere, but then they have to
(10:09):
basically buy out the spouse'sshare of that.
So it's not shares like, youknow, we think of, but just the
marital interest, we had peoplewho, I mean, I'm sure they have,
but um, called, I mean a lot ofpolice involvement with domestic
abuse.
I don't live together well.
We, we have cases where, um,where there is domestic abuse
(10:31):
and that, that's a little bitmore, um, sad, right?
Because there, there is violenceand, and you don't want the kids
to be involved.
But I think there's more crazybehavior.
Like what people will do, um, tokind of get the other spouse
like the, you know, the, the,the behaviors that they'll
sabotage their own financialwellbeing.
So to get, um, I have a casewhere, um, my client flipped
(10:55):
houses, right?
That was her job.
Um, and it was time to sell thehouse in the divorce had started
and husband because it wasmarital wouldn't sell it.
Do you get, um, cases that otherattorneys have worked on and
they either fire them or maybeafter the divorce is over to do
post decree work?
(11:16):
I mean do, right.
I'll pick up cases where someoneelse has a different attorney
and there, there might be therethey weren't a good match.
So either the client fires theattorney or the attorney
withdraws and says, I don't wantto work on it.
So then they have, um, coming toanother attorney and that
happens.
That happens now and again.
And I think that that's okaybecause just because you have
your first attorney, you mightnot be a good match.
(11:38):
Right?
So if you need to find someonethat you can work well with and
that you trust and so on, andsometimes you have a client who
just needs more handholding anduh, his or her first attorney
isn't that type of attorney, sothey'll just want to find
someone who's different.
Um, um, and then oftentimeswe'll have cases that it's five
years after the divorce and theydon't want to go back to their
(12:00):
first attorney for whateverreason.
So then we'll, we'll pick thosecases up.
We also will pick up fromcollaborative cases if there are
things that happen post decree,um, if and they want to go to
court, they can't go back totheir collaborative attorney
because the collaborative printdoesn't go to court.
So then we'll get hired to workon those cases as well.
So yeah.
So we'll, we'll see that, um,red flags for me are, um, you
(12:24):
would be attorney number five.
Like I think I'll pass.
You know, that leads me into thequestion.
What kind of clients come in orpotential clients, let's say,
cases you won't take based uponwhat they're telling you or what
you perceive.
Right.
When people are dishonest orthey'll say, you know, like,
I'll be shocked sometimes.
Well, I don't want her to knowabout that.
(12:44):
And I'm like, yeah, right.
Exactly that.
I'm like, no, I'm not.
I'm not.
You have to be forthright.
You have to be honest.
You have to have everythingdisclosed.
And if someone's SPACs thatthey're not going to do there,
they're going to be trouble.
Like, I'm not touching that witha 10 foot pole.
Right.
I'm not going to, you know,trade your professional
reputation for someone who'strying to, you know, is got some
(13:06):
issues.
Domestic abusers.
I mean, it depends because I'vehad clients who've been accused
of domestic abuse because theother spouse was trying to get
an upper hand in the custodybattle.
So that's different becausethey're kind of unjustly accused
of domestic abuse.
But you know, if there arepeople who are, um, I think
mostly just if they'redishonest, I don't, I don't want
(13:27):
to work with people who aredishonest or are you able to
withdraw from a case if you a,if they're not paying you and if
you feel that it's not ethicalfor you to keep representing
them.
Right?
So we try in our firm to reallywork with clients about their
bill and know what theexpectations are.
Um, and at the pretrial we'llsell it, send a letter to a
(13:49):
client saying, look, we're nowmoving towards trial phase.
This is a routine letter, butare you going to make the
financial commitment that trialtakes?
Um, because believe it or a lotfrequently family law attorneys
get stiffed, right?
They don't get to see becauseyou're, you can't withdraw
because you're going toprejudice your client.
So we try and put things inplace to be just a smart
(14:09):
business owner about making surethat funds are secure.
And then that gives them thechance to say, um, you know
what, this is, I can't affordit.
And so then we'll withdraw.
Um, most people are pretty goodabout getting things figured out
and we do try and work withparties to, cause we know it's
expensive, we want to be mindfulof that.
Um, but if we withdraw, we had acase and I was with an
(14:31):
associated and the client wasjust awful to her.
She would call her up screamingand swearing at her and I just
said, withdraw you, you have noobligation to continue with a
client who is, you know, beingvery, yes.
Just withdraw.
And she felt the associate fellbad.
I don't, you know, but you, youhave to, you know, if or if
(14:51):
clients aren't forthright, thenI put that right in my retainer
agreement.
It's not this blunt, but itbasically says, if you lie to
me, I'm quitting.
Right.
Because I'm not, you know, I'mnot going to represent to the
court something.
And then the court's going tothink, am I Dishona so that's
just to have to go to the courtto withdraw.
Nope.
Well you don't know.
No, it's Alec in criminal cases.
(15:12):
You can, I can withdraw anytime.
I can't.
I can't withdraw to close totry.
Yes.
Right.
You can't prejudice your client,so you have to be mindful of or
a hearing.
Um, but, but you can withdraw.
Great.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well George has been veryinteresting.
I've learned a lot about familylaw.
I really appreciate you comingin today and learning about it
and hopefully everybody gets a,uh, good, good benefit from
(15:33):
hearing about it and what toexpect.
Great.
Thanks so much for having me.
It was very enjoyable.
Join us for our next episodewhere we'll explore another
corner of the legal world.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
This is Ben the berry long legal podcast.
Tune in again as Barryinterviews lawyers, real estate
agents, lenders, and otherprofessionals that bring popular
legal related topics into focusfor his listeners.
Very Rosenswag can be reached at(952) 920-1001 in Minnesota and
(16:07):
(480) 227-2203 in Arizona.
He can also be reached by emailat Gerry at[inaudible] dot com
or online at www dot[inaudible]dot com.
Divorce custody, paternity alimony.
These are all emotionallycharged and complicated concepts
that arise in family law, whichis the subject of today's show,
part three of three episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the barrylaw legal podcast.
Barry Rosenzweig has been anattorney for over 25 years and
is nationally known as avisionary in his profession, in
each episode.
Attorney Barry Rosenzweiginterviews, lawyers, real estate
agents, lenders, and otherprofessionals that bring poularr
legal related topics into focusfor his listeners.
(00:34):
So get ready for an educationaland exciting episode.
Now here's your host, BarryRosenzweig.
We're in the studio today, withJo Vicello and we are going to
be talking about family law.
What do you like about familylaw?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Why do you like being a family law attorney?
It's never ever dull, ever,ever, right?
There's always, it's sointeresting and sometimes
stories are in cases thingshappen.
You think if I wrote a book andput this, nobody would believe
it.
Yeah.
What I like about family law, isI like, and this sounds kind of
hokey, but there is such a senseof satisfaction when you see
(01:11):
your client coming in at thebeginning and they're in trauma
and grief and sadness andfearful and you walk them
through the process, and at theend you can see a different
person.
I can think of a case, I had awoman in and this this case went
to trial at least 10 or 12 yearsago.
(01:31):
She was this meek, meek littleperson and her husband was just
a jerk and I'll use thevernacular.
She was just beside herself andso we walked through the whole
process and at the end she was adifferent person.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
She wasn't living with that demeaning person
anymore.
She knew that financially theyhad enough money that she would
get a decent settlement and justto see the relief.
So I really like helping people,walk through that process and to
know this is a trauma in yourlife.
We'll walk through it together,but you're going to be okay in
(02:10):
the end.
Right?
It doesn't mean there's notgrief and sadness and anger and
that sort of thing.
I like to see it from beginningto end, right.
How the process gets taken out.
Plus the interesting stuff.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
stuff is there, is there, um, either you recommend
or a judge will recommended ormandated that they have to have
either family counseling ormarital counseling to try to
reconcile or some people justwant to reconcile, try marriage
counseling and the time,
Speaker 3 (02:42):
right.
Judges don't order and I don'tthink they have the authority to
order marriage counseling, butthey can order parties into
anger management.
Um, they can order them intotherapy for themselves.
They can order the kids to go totherapy.
They can order a chemical healthassessment if there are about
chemical dependency.
Um, so the court has authorityto do those types of things.
(03:04):
Um, they can, they can orderfamily counseling to say, you
know, the, the communicationdynamics are so poor and we want
you to go, you know, so they cando those type of things, do some
things.
People on their own decide, youknow what this is.
We we're going to try toreconcile and let's go through
counseling and see what we cando.
And sometimes that works.
Sometimes it does.
Yeah.
(03:24):
And then they might come backwith a postnup.
Right.
You know, just the here, right?
Yeah.
But yeah, that, that's not, Ithink I have a couple of cases
on inactive status right now.
Meaning they're trying to figureout, do we want to, you know, we
started this process, we seewhat it might look like for us.
Oh, we're having second thoughtshere.
You know, what aboutgrandparent's rights?
So there's a statute regardinggrandparents' rights and it's
(03:48):
just really specific.
Um, you see it if grandparentsyou, I'll tell you what I see.
Typically if grandparents wantto have some type of visitation,
cause it's not really parentingtime with the grandkids, most
judges will say you need to dothat during your child's
parenting time.
So if it's dad's parents andthey want to see the kid, the
judge will say, okay, then whendad has his parenting time, you
(04:10):
have to do that.
Um, but sometimes in cases, um,a court will order.
I had a case and it went totrial with, uh, with the grandma
and she had spent, the kid hadlived with her or the kid was
eight and previously had livedwith her for a period of time.
And so that grandmothers siteparenting time aside for mom and
aside from dead and the judgedid grant her one weekend a
(04:32):
month that she had parentingtime.
But it's not, um, it's oftendifficult for grandparents cause
they want to see theirgrandkids.
And then, um, if there's, uh, ifit's really tense between the
parents, one parent might say,well, you're not seeing the
grandkids.
We see that on a fairly regularbasis where, um, you know, to
kind of punish Daddy, they'renot going to let grandma and
Grandpa's see the kid.
(04:53):
Um, what is your thoughts andopinions and on the, uh, the
biggest divorce him all the timecoming up here with Jeff Bezos
and his wife with Amazon.
Can you even imagine right nowyou think there'd be
confidential?
You know, so we oftentimes ifthere for financial, we'll do
what's called a protectiveorder, a meeting that nobody
gets to see these documents.
(05:15):
Um, you know, like I had a casewhere, um, the husband had a
ownership in a significantMinnesota business, right.
And, uh, divorce records arepublic information, you know, so
most people, all right, so goingonto your local corner, look up
your neighbor or, um, I don'tthink, are those granted very
(05:36):
well if you agree to it.
So like in that case, the twoattorneys and the two parties
stipulated to a protective ordersaying that all financial
information, because we neededto determine what's the marital
value of the business, right?
Because it was an asset husbandwas going to receive.
So wife needed to have an offsetfor another marital, but they
don't want their documents andwafer greet.
(05:56):
She didn't want everything allover.
Um, so we signed a protectiveorder, which kept that out of,
uh, the, you know, the publiceyes, they can't see it in those
documents can be released.
Some things can be filedconfidentially.
Um, so that's another way to dothat.
But I would bet there's going tobe all kinds of, you know,
stipulations related tosettlement and documents and you
(06:18):
know, that kind of stuff,
Speaker 1 (06:19):
you know, to go on and think about this then about
businesses.
A lot of spouses own businesstogether.
Yes.
Sometimes one spouse owns it alltogether.
One spouse owns it with apartner or two or you know, what
happens in those situations is,I mean, and I think with the
Amazon situation is a big partof the fight, if you know, is
(06:44):
gonna be about voting shares.
Right.
Who has control, right?
So how do you, how does thatwork with businesses
Speaker 3 (06:50):
records and someone who owns damn as I know, but no,
it's really so, um, when you area part of a divorce, his assets
and liabilities, I think we onlygot to the first part, the um,
uh, custody and parent time.
And then we talked about childsupport and spousal, but the
third part of a divorce or isthe division of assets and
liabilities.
So what you do is you identifyevery asset.
(07:11):
It could be a 401k, it could bea cabin, it could be a boat, it
could be a business.
And so what happens is we haveeasy methods for some things to
figure out a value of an asset.
What's, what's your most recent401k statement?
Here's the value.
Very easy.
How much money do you have inyour bank account?
That's easy.
A little bit more difficult aswhat's the value of a home, you
(07:33):
know, unless the parties agreed,then we have appraisals done and
say, okay, if there's a disputeabout the value of the home, um,
I think at the top of the list,our businesses.
So I on a regular basis higher,they're a business evaluator.
Um, there's one in particularthat I'd like to use in Mendota
heights and they do a businessvaluation.
They can be pricey, 10 to 15grand, but they go in and
(07:55):
they'll take it,
Speaker 1 (07:55):
the wireless, I mean, if it's a small, small business,
no.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
If it's a small business, and I, I've also hired
this firm to say, look, this isthe nature.
If I give you last year's profitand loss, is it worth it to do a
business valuation?
They'll say no.
Or you know, that sort of thingbecause he probably could give
you some kind of a yeah.
And the, the, this far fromthat, I heard they're all CPA's.
Right?
Okay.
And that, and their work isvaluing businesses and they do
some non-marital tracing.
(08:20):
Um, so what you're looking forin a business valuation is we
need to assign a value to thisasset.
So how do we do that?
Some, it's not worth the money.
Some zero.
Like if the person, it's theperson, it's the blue sky value,
right.
That, that without will get,Yup.
Same thing.
Right.
So, um, you just don't reallyspend a lot of time on it or, or
(08:41):
all they have is their computer.
Right?
Right.
But then you have, you have anengineering firm or I've had
medical practices valued ordental practices or you know,
those types of things.
And that's when we hire a, uh,uh, business valuator to do the
business value spouse.
Is that just like any otherasset for a spouse then?
(09:01):
Yes, for both spouses,regardless if they're an owner
of that are not on paper.
Right, right.
Because they have a maritalinterest in it.
So if it was started, so if youhad a business that was started
during the marriage andcontinued through the marriage,
part of it is non-marital andpart of it is marital and that
business valuator figures thatout.
Um, if it was, if there's apartnership and it was started
during the marriage, thebusiness, it's all marital, but
(09:24):
then what is, um, spouses,what's the value of his or her
share?
So are they a 50% owner?
The business is worth, you know,a hundred grand, 50%.
It's$50,000 is and that 50,000goes on the balance sheet and
then, you know, to figure itout.
So it's just like any otherasset, you just have to assign a
value to other partners.
(09:45):
Sometimes I'm, it dependsusually if there's loans, right?
So usually they'll launch aretaking into consideration and
figuring out the value.
Um, most typically the personwho worked in the business as a
ward of the business.
Right.
And so there's really, they justcontinue running the business as
it was.
Um, and um, you know, going fromthere, but then they have to
(10:09):
basically buy out the spouse'sshare of that.
So it's not shares like, youknow, we think of, but just the
marital interest, we had peoplewho, I mean, I'm sure they have,
but um, called, I mean a lot ofpolice involvement with domestic
abuse.
I don't live together well.
We, we have cases where, um,where there is domestic abuse
(10:31):
and that, that's a little bitmore, um, sad, right?
Because there, there is violenceand, and you don't want the kids
to be involved.
But I think there's more crazybehavior.
Like what people will do, um, tokind of get the other spouse
like the, you know, the, the,the behaviors that they'll
sabotage their own financialwellbeing.
So to get, um, I have a casewhere, um, my client flipped
(10:55):
houses, right?
That was her job.
Um, and it was time to sell thehouse in the divorce had started
and husband because it wasmarital wouldn't sell it.
Do you get, um, cases that otherattorneys have worked on and
they either fire them or maybeafter the divorce is over to do
post decree work?
(11:16):
I mean do, right.
I'll pick up cases where someoneelse has a different attorney
and there, there might be therethey weren't a good match.
So either the client fires theattorney or the attorney
withdraws and says, I don't wantto work on it.
So then they have, um, coming toanother attorney and that
happens.
That happens now and again.
And I think that that's okaybecause just because you have
your first attorney, you mightnot be a good match.
(11:38):
Right?
So if you need to find someonethat you can work well with and
that you trust and so on, andsometimes you have a client who
just needs more handholding anduh, his or her first attorney
isn't that type of attorney, sothey'll just want to find
someone who's different.
Um, um, and then oftentimeswe'll have cases that it's five
years after the divorce and theydon't want to go back to their
(12:00):
first attorney for whateverreason.
So then we'll, we'll pick thosecases up.
We also will pick up fromcollaborative cases if there are
things that happen post decree,um, if and they want to go to
court, they can't go back totheir collaborative attorney
because the collaborative printdoesn't go to court.
So then we'll get hired to workon those cases as well.
So yeah.
So we'll, we'll see that, um,red flags for me are, um, you
(12:24):
would be attorney number five.
Like I think I'll pass.
You know, that leads me into thequestion.
What kind of clients come in orpotential clients, let's say,
cases you won't take based uponwhat they're telling you or what
you perceive.
Right.
When people are dishonest orthey'll say, you know, like,
I'll be shocked sometimes.
Well, I don't want her to knowabout that.
(12:44):
And I'm like, yeah, right.
Exactly that.
I'm like, no, I'm not.
I'm not.
You have to be forthright.
You have to be honest.
You have to have everythingdisclosed.
And if someone's SPACs thatthey're not going to do there,
they're going to be trouble.
Like, I'm not touching that witha 10 foot pole.
Right.
I'm not going to, you know,trade your professional
reputation for someone who'strying to, you know, is got some
(13:06):
issues.
Domestic abusers.
I mean, it depends because I'vehad clients who've been accused
of domestic abuse because theother spouse was trying to get
an upper hand in the custodybattle.
So that's different becausethey're kind of unjustly accused
of domestic abuse.
But you know, if there arepeople who are, um, I think
mostly just if they'redishonest, I don't, I don't want
(13:27):
to work with people who aredishonest or are you able to
withdraw from a case if you a,if they're not paying you and if
you feel that it's not ethicalfor you to keep representing
them.
Right?
So we try in our firm to reallywork with clients about their
bill and know what theexpectations are.
Um, and at the pretrial we'llsell it, send a letter to a
(13:49):
client saying, look, we're nowmoving towards trial phase.
This is a routine letter, butare you going to make the
financial commitment that trialtakes?
Um, because believe it or a lotfrequently family law attorneys
get stiffed, right?
They don't get to see becauseyou're, you can't withdraw
because you're going toprejudice your client.
So we try and put things inplace to be just a smart
(14:09):
business owner about making surethat funds are secure.
And then that gives them thechance to say, um, you know
what, this is, I can't affordit.
And so then we'll withdraw.
Um, most people are pretty goodabout getting things figured out
and we do try and work withparties to, cause we know it's
expensive, we want to be mindfulof that.
Um, but if we withdraw, we had acase and I was with an
(14:31):
associated and the client wasjust awful to her.
She would call her up screamingand swearing at her and I just
said, withdraw you, you have noobligation to continue with a
client who is, you know, beingvery, yes.
Just withdraw.
And she felt the associate fellbad.
I don't, you know, but you, youhave to, you know, if or if
(14:51):
clients aren't forthright, thenI put that right in my retainer
agreement.
It's not this blunt, but itbasically says, if you lie to
me, I'm quitting.
Right.
Because I'm not, you know, I'mnot going to represent to the
court something.
And then the court's going tothink, am I Dishona so that's
just to have to go to the courtto withdraw.
Nope.
Well you don't know.
No, it's Alec in criminal cases.
(15:12):
You can, I can withdraw anytime.
I can't.
I can't withdraw to close totry.
Yes.
Right.
You can't prejudice your client,so you have to be mindful of or
a hearing.
Um, but, but you can withdraw.
Great.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well George has been veryinteresting.
I've learned a lot about familylaw.
I really appreciate you comingin today and learning about it
and hopefully everybody gets a,uh, good, good benefit from
(15:33):
hearing about it and what toexpect.
Great.
Thanks so much for having me.
It was very enjoyable.
Join us for our next episodewhere we'll explore another
corner of the legal world.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
This is Ben the berry long legal podcast.
Tune in again as Barryinterviews lawyers, real estate
agents, lenders, and otherprofessionals that bring popular
legal related topics into focusfor his listeners.
Very Rosenswag can be reached at(952) 920-1001 in Minnesota and
(16:07):
(480) 227-2203 in Arizona.
He can also be reached by emailat Gerry at[inaudible] dot com
or online at www dot[inaudible]dot com.
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