June 17, 2025 • 41 mins
What does it mean to be truly yourself while following Jesus? Kyle Bowman's transformative journey from embracing a same-sex lifestyle for eleven years to discovering her authentic identity in Christ challenges our assumptions about sexuality, spirituality, and personal transformation.
Kyle's story begins with a seemingly typical childhood where performance became her pathway to connection. As she discovered her attraction to women, she fully embraced that identity until emotional turmoil and emptiness led her to reconsider the faith of her youth. The turning point came through an unexpected friendship with a Christian who demonstrated Christ's love without judgment or condemnation.
Whether you're wrestling with same-sex attraction, pornography, or any struggle that feels deeply embedded in your identity, Kyle's testimony offers hope without empty promises. Her message is revolutionary: God isn't trying to strip you down to nothing—He wants everything that doesn't belong to fall away so your authentic self can emerge. Join us for this powerful conversation that might just change how you view your own journey toward wholeness.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to Becoming Whole.
I'm James, one of the spiritualcoaches and the director of
projects here at Regen, and I'mjoined by our coaching director,
my wonderful supervisor andfriend, kyle Bowman.
Kyle, thanks for being on ourshow today.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Always glad to be with you, James.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So, friends, today we're going to get to hear some
of Kyle's story what it's lookedlike to walk through her
journey, and how her experiencesof overcoming and walking
through her journey of same-sexattraction impact the way she
ministers to others.
And so, whether or not you haveparticular USB same-sex
(00:38):
attraction, or even if youlisten to this podcast because
you've experienced betrayal oryou're a parent trying to figure
out how to parent your kids,there's going to be some really
deep insights from Kyle today onhow to ultimately grow closer
to Jesus, which is what we'reall about here at Regen.
So, kyle, whenever you're ready, could you just share your
(00:59):
story with us and how you got tothis place you're in today?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, sure.
So I grew up in what I wouldcall a typical home.
You know my parents wereeducators, you know typical kind
of middle-class family in theDC area, and I was an only child
(01:26):
.
And so, you know, when you'rean only child, it feels like
relationships with parents areeven more pronounced, right,
because you're the only kid,they don't have to give their
time to any other kid.
And so, you know, had a verygood bonding relationship with
(01:47):
my dad.
The relationship with my motherwas very different.
She was focused a lot on myperformance and how well I did
in school and how well I did inother activities, and there was
that part of me that just wantedto experience just the nurture
(02:09):
and the care and the emotionalconnection.
And so for me, the way I gotthat attention was through
performance.
And so there came a point as Istarted to, you know, get a
little older and mature and evenstarted to develop sexually,
(02:32):
you know I noticed that I hadjust this bigger draw toward
women.
And so you know, as a persongrowing up in the 70s, like I
knew nothing about homosexualityand what that was, all I knew
was that there was something Iwas experiencing, the feeling
(02:53):
that wanted to connect so muchmore deeply with women and so
Around.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
what age was this, Kyle, that you started to?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I was probably around 11 or 12, I think, and so you
know you start to kind of seekthat out and I had really I had
good female friendships growingup, like I had like a core group
of girls that I hung out with.
So I didn't feel, you know,like I was separate or apart.
(03:26):
At least at that time I didn't,and so you know those were good
.
But then as I started to getolder, closer toward like
getting you know in high schooland getting ready to leave high
school you know in high schooland getting ready to leave high
(03:49):
school I came kind of to theknowledge about homosexuality
and so, because a lot of thiskind of started stirring when I
was developing sexually, for methen there was sexual desire
that got attached to it andromantic desire that got
attached to that.
And so once I found out whathomosexuality was, I was like,
(04:12):
oh, maybe that's me, becausethis is how I feel, and I feel
like I would do better in arelationship with women than I
would with men.
And not that I had any sort ofnever had bad experiences, you
know, overall with men.
So there wasn't.
I didn't have any abuse in mybackground, but there was just
(04:34):
this deep longing for emotionalconnection and in my mind that
also included some sort ofromantic or sexual connection to
that.
And so there was a point atwhich I decided that and I
actually was out of college bythat time that I decided that
(04:56):
this was a lifestyle I was goingto pursue and I did that, and I
did that for 11 years.
That and I did that for 11years.
And in the middle of that, youknow you, there are things that
you feel like will really, um,satisfy you.
They give you that, that deepsatisfaction, like you know, the
(05:18):
kind of satisfaction when yougo, wow, everything is right
with the world, kind of thing.
And it wasn't that there wasmore emotional turmoil and too
much emotional dependency.
That just wasn't healthy.
And so I started feeling that.
(05:43):
And I grew up in a Christianhome, so it's not like I didn't
know anything about Christianity.
I didn't know about what itmeant to have a relationship
with Jesus, but I couldcertainly tell you that Jesus
died for my sins, you know, andthat's probably about the extent
of what I would share, be ableto share.
(06:05):
And so there came a point whereI thought, well, maybe I need
to go back and try thisChristianity thing again because
I'm just not satisfied in thestage of life that I'm in and
(06:29):
the stage of life that I'm in.
And so I had a really goodfriend who, unbeknownst to me at
the time, she knew about mylifestyle and the way I was
living, but she was a devotedChristian and she had been
praying for me all along.
She had been praying for me andshe was a person who showed me
the true character of Christ inthat she, you know, she never
(06:52):
judged me, she never spoke downto me.
She always showed me what it'slike to be loved by Jesus.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Was that pretty typical for you, kyle, that
sense of like God wouldn't be,or, you know, christians
wouldn't be these judgmentalpeople, but people who actually
love?
Or was that not quite what yousaw?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, I wasn't expecting, because I knew it was
.
I understood that it wasagainst God's design.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
So my expectation was you know, christian people are
not gonna.
So my expectation was you know,christian people are not going
to, they're not going to goalong with this.
And I think too, in the timeperiod it wasn't a time period
where it is like today whereeverybody was willing to come
out and share their sexuality itwas still very much taboo.
So my expectation wasn't to be,you know, embraced and loved
(07:46):
and brought in Um, but she was aperson who, who just chose to
treat me differently.
And so I came to her one dayand I said you know what?
I want to go to your church,because if everybody is like you
at your church, I want to gothere.
And so I went.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
You hadn't been going to church, I'm guessing.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I hadn't been going to church since I graduated from
college is when I stopped goingto church and I was in a more
traditional.
I grew up as an Episcopalianand so, you know, stopped doing
that and then started going toher church and loved it, and the
(08:33):
Lord just stirred a hunger anda desire to pursue Him and I
just said, okay, I'm going to,you know, take all of this in.
And that's exactly what I did.
I just started taking in,understanding what is it?
What does it really mean to bea Christian, beyond just knowing
(08:55):
that Jesus died for your sinsand understanding that way, like
, what does it mean to toconfess that you are a sinner?
What does it mean that weneeded a Savior?
What does it mean to have theHoly Spirit indwell you and lead
(09:16):
you through your life?
And what does it mean to be astudent of the Word of God?
So I just started just taking inall of that word of God.
So I just started just takingin all of that and I think you
know so many people, james, askme.
They say, well, you know, kyle,what was it?
What was the thing?
Because I think a lot of peoplewant to be able to go and say
(09:37):
that to their friend or theirson or their daughter and go.
Well, this person did this andthis is what changed their life.
And for me, I did not focus onchange.
I focused on what it means tofollow Christ, and one of the
things that we used to say inour Path Through Wilderness
(10:01):
program often is we're notpursuing healing, we're pursuing
the healer.
Wow, and I think that is thething that just flipped
everything on its head for me isthat I don't have to pursue the
change because that's going tobe God's job.
(10:21):
My job is to pursue Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's going to be God's job.
My job is to pursue Jesus.
Kyle, what on earth taught youthis?
I don't feel like most of usare taught this.
How did you figure that out asan early 30-something going to
this friend's church?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I really think that it was just something.
Once I was able to open my eyes, I think it was just something
the Lord did in me.
I don't think back then I couldhave articulated it that way.
I can articulate it this waynow, but I don't think I could
(10:58):
have.
Then I would have probably justsaid well, you know, I'm just
going to church and I'm readingmy Bible.
I would have said, probablyvery casually, very cavalierly
right, like you know, I'm justdoing this, this is what I'm
doing, and not reallyunderstanding that the Lord was
in his sovereignty, in his mercy, in his grace for me, me was
(11:22):
teaching me himself what itmeant to pursue him.
And you know I'm wired a certainway.
You know the Lord knows I'm alearner, you know he loves, he
knows I love to ingest all theinformation and do all the
reading.
And so he just ignited, youknow he gave me this passion to
(11:46):
go, just like you go, and youget all this information in
these other places.
You can dive into the word inthe same way.
And then that's what I did, andI went to all the Bible studies
and did all the things and theLord did the change in my heart,
like I didn't have to sitaround going oh God, please take
(12:08):
this away.
I don't think I ever prayedthat prayer.
I think it was always.
You know, help me to be theperson I'm supposed to be.
And I think the other thing thatgave me a lot of freedom was,
you know, I always tell peoplelike I'm not the girl that's
(12:29):
going to be, you know, the girlygirl, if you will, I'm not
going to be the one that'strying to be all cute, made up
and all this.
And part of what I was thinkingwas, man, I'm going to have to
(12:51):
change just all of who I am.
And God gave me the freedom toknow that, while there were some
things outwardly that needed tobe changed, they weren't so
dramatic that they would take meout of who he created me to be,
and that I could better reflecthis son to me, to others, if I
(13:14):
was just going to be who hecreated me to be.
And so once I was able tosettle into that comfort, then I
was like, oh, oh, oh, okay,this is cool and great, like I
can still, you know, be the girlin the jeans and the tennis
(13:39):
shoes and the whatever, and nothave to worry about trying to
present some other persona thatwasn't really me.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You didn't feel like you had to fall into the
stereotypes that were and arestill present for many women and
many men in our culture of whatit means to be a woman or man.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Absolutely, absolutely.
For me, what I've discovered,what it means for me to be a
woman, is to be the person thatGod has created me to be, so
that I can reflect Jesus to theworld, because if I try to be
somebody else, they're not goingto see Jesus, they're going to
see fake.
(14:13):
Kyle is what they're going tosee.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Oh my goodness.
I don't know if the listenersare feeling this, but I'm like.
I want the faith that Kyle hasand I often think this when we
get to meet.
But I'm also like man what aword to the church in the US and
where we're located.
We probably have some listenersaround the world, but at least
in our context like how many ofus are convinced I've got to be
(14:38):
the fake, acting like I have itall together, persona Christian
thing that seems like everyoneelse is trying to do, and you're
like God was just cuttingthrough some of that mess in
your life.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Absolutely, absolutely, and it was like I
said, it was the most freeingthing that I could have ever
experienced, and I think thatpeople, if you talk to people
who know me, they will tell youthat what they see is the
(15:15):
authentic me.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, One of the things that blocks joy you know,
a sense of being glad to betogether, this relational joy
One of the things that blocks itis wearing a mask, and I think
that's part of why, Kyle, youare one of the most joyful
people I know.
It's like God helped you takeoff some of those masks in your
30s and throughout your life sothat you could be who you were
(15:40):
made to be, Kyle, was there sortof like a moment of like I'm
now surrendering my life toJesus, a conversion, a born
again kind of experience?
Or was it just kind of like Istarted following Jesus and he
just started to do what only hecan do?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
No, I did have a specific conversion experience
and it's pretty cool because itwas, I don't know.
People are probably familiarwith the Gideon Bible and they
used to have pocket NewTestaments and in the back of
them there was like the prayeryou know Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And so.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I prayed through that .
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So tee it up a little bit, like you're at your
friend's church now, and thenyou come across the Skideon
Bible or what was the context Igot it.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I can't even remember how I got this little pocket.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I mean they put them in hotel rooms, but they usually
put the full-size one right, somaybe that wasn't the topic.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
This was only a New Testament and it was small.
It was probably like asix-point font.
Oh my goodness, it was so supersmall.
But in the back of it I had itand I remember just going
through it and I would readdifferent things in it and for
some reason I flipped to theback of it, would read different
(16:52):
things in it and for somereason I flipped to the back of
it and in the back of it it justhad a prayer to just to walk
you through, you know, givingyour life to Christ, and then it
had a place for you to sign anddate when you did it and that's
what I did.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Wow.
But you're already in thiscontext of like you were
beginning to follow Jesus aslike a disciple.
You're like I want to learnfrom him, I'm going to this
church, and then it sounds likea couple years into that, you
kind of had this sort ofdefinitive moment, like I've
decided to follow Jesus, noturning back.
Is that how it was?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well, it was a little closer.
It was so like when I startedgoing to my friend's church I
had started reading scripture,and that's when I had started
with that.
So, we're talking maybe somemonths into that, not years into
that.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, wow, that's incredible.
What about?
So?
We got this time in your 30swhere you're coming to this
church.
You know you're loved by yourfriend.
You want more of what she's got.
You know the people around heryou're hoping in that church
would be like that.
What are some of therelationships like that God put
(18:06):
in your life?
Small group of people who lovedyou well, where there are some
older women who were doing thatlike 11 am prayer on a Saturday
or whatever they do and coveringthe whole world in prayer.
What was some of the?
Was there some relationalelements to this for you?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah for sure, and there was a part of it that was
difficult, because when youspend 11 years living a certain
way, that means you're totallyimmersed into that way of life,
and so now I'm being pulled 100%out of that, away from this
(18:57):
large community that I wasconnected to very regularly and
engaging with people all thetime, and now stepping out of
that and then having to createnew community.
And so the first couple ofyears were hard because it took
a while to get the community.
Of years were hard because ittook a while to get the
community.
One was I just had to feel safeenough and my friend she was
(19:17):
probably she and her husbandwere the people I felt the
safest with.
And then also I had a bestfriend who was also a believer,
and so my connections werereally small and so, but it was
hard because I am, you know, Ilove to be around people, I love
(19:39):
to connect with people, I loveto sit down and have
conversations and engage withpeople.
And so the first, I would sayprobably two to three years were
hard because it took me thatlong to feel comfortable enough
in community and to feel like Icould trust people in community.
(20:02):
And so as I started going tosmall groups at my church, and
then it was God.
It was just so gracious to me.
He gave me a couple of mentors.
There was one gentleman I'llnever forget him, his name is
Elder Carter, and he just tookto me for some reason and he was
(20:24):
always speaking lives to me, hewould talk with me about the
scriptures and he wouldencourage me in my walk and you
know, for whatever reason, hejust kind of just gravitated to
me and and mentored me and andeven fathered me in a way and so
(20:44):
and and that.
As I got to connect with himand then I started connecting
with the people in my smallgroup and then I just you know,
then the friendship and thecommunity started growing as I
started becoming more active inmy church.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
It's really amazing because it sounds like he was
really developing primarily anattachment with him through your
friend.
Your friend was the one kind ofinviting you your one or two
friends that you had tight-knitcommunity with but he was really
doing something just like youand him for a while, for a while
, yes.
That's hard.
Yeah, that's really difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
And there's a thing of then trying to.
Is there a way for me tomaintain certain friendships
without me not honoring who Iwas becoming in Christ?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, how did that work out for you?
Did you end up maintaining any?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
There were one or two people who would stay in
contact with me.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
From your previous community, yeah, from the
previous community, a couplepeople.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
What is also just as beautiful is that there were
several in the community whoalso gave their lives to Christ
and had just so tremendoustransformation.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Did they also experience desires shifting and
things like that?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, wow, they did, they did.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
That's a paradigm.
If I'm listening in my 2025millennial brain, as I imagine
there's you know otherslistening when we're recording
like that doesn't sound right,like to our ears, right Like
wait.
Desires toward the same sex,shifted.
Like how do you think aboutthat, kyle?
Because I mean one of thethings that I love, bob Reagan,
(22:41):
who used to work with us he'sretired.
He would always say to me thatand he experienced a very
similar story to what you allhave heard from Kyle.
But he would tell me that whenhe's working with men, with SSA
and I apply this to the work Ido with and he would as well to
men with opposite sex attractionor a mixture or whatever he
would say the only orientationhe's concerned with changing is
(23:05):
your orientation toward Jesus,which is very similar to the
heartbeat of what God did inyour life, kyle, in that time.
So in some sense at Regent wedon't like assume what God may
or may not do, but there'sactually parallels here.
Like for my journey withpornography, it was like God, I
(23:27):
desire this thing so bad, butpart of my journey has been not
desiring that anymore.
So I think there's a lot ofareas in our life where, if we
look objectively, we can seedesires get shifted by God over
time.
Like I desire to pig out ondonuts every day in college and
now I don't, you know, orwhatever it is right.
(23:47):
So how do you think about that,kyle, in your life and the
lives of those that you've seenwalk through a similar journey?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Well, I think one important thing is to know that,
you know, not everybody'sjourney looks the same Right,
and I think you know there canbe.
For people who have same-sexattraction, they can have this
feeling of chronic uniquenessand to say, well, you know, my
(24:18):
thing is just so very differentand it's going to, you know,
feel different and it's going to, you know it's going to be
harder or maybe it won't everchange, because they feel like
it's so embedded.
And I think part of the reasonwhy it feels so, a part of who
you think you are, is becauseyou know you're not a human
(24:42):
without being sexual.
Right.
Sexuality is imprinted in us byGod and so when you're talking
about sexual orientation, you'retalking about something that is
inherent to who you are,because if you take it away,
you're not human anymore.
(25:02):
Yeah, it said God created themmale and female, so there's
something about creating us assex beings that is intrinsic,
actually, to our Absolutelybeings that is intrinsic
actually to our absolutely uhand so and so I think part of
being able to kind of walk thisout is acknowledging just that
feeling, is that this feels soinherently right to me, and I
(25:31):
don't know that that getsacknowledged all the time.
When people are walking withothers who are working through
SSA, they don't get somebody whocan understand that this feels
so inherently right to me.
I think that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And, by the way, I'll just say on that that there's a
somewhat popular image.
I forget who originated it, butthey describe how we often
think that we're just likedriving our emotions, like we're
driving a car, but actuallyit's much more like a little
person on a large elephant.
The elephant represents theemotions and in some sense
emotions are dumb.
They're not dumb in the senseof like unintelligent, but
(26:13):
they're literally not like uh,rational, right, that doesn't
get, not that they're bad.
You might hear not rational andthink that means they're bad.
That's actually enlightenmentthat taught us that.
But they're not bad, butthey're just kind of like like a
big elephant, like they're thisbig, powerful thing that does
also need direction.
But part of what I'm trying tohighlight here is how even those
(26:33):
of us who think we'reintellectual we think we're, you
know, more left brain orientedor whatever we're still actually
being driven more often thannot by our emotions to one
degree or another.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, they play a big part.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
We have to acknowledge that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yes, yeah, and so I think again, being able to
acknowledge that and thenunderstanding that your journey
may look very, very differentthan someone else's and it may
take a long time, it couldreally take a long time, and are
(27:12):
you willing to trust the Lordin that and also to know to even
start thinking about what doyou?
What does healing mean?
Because I think that's anotherthing that trips people up, and
I think that happens, you know,with any unwanted sexual
behavior.
You know healing means I amnever going to get tempted ever
(27:36):
again in my whole entire life.
This is going to be absolutelygone for me and I don't have to
deal with it anymore.
But if Jesus came to walk in theflesh so we could understand
how to walk in the flesh whenfleshly things rise up, I don't
think you get to experience thisdepth of intimacy with him to
(28:02):
walk you through the hard stuffand you know I just kind of
think about you know, the psalmsays weeping may endure for a
night, but joy comes in themorning.
You might have to weep somenights, but in the weeping you
get to experience how God canmeet you, you get to have it out
(28:29):
, and you get to have it out, ifyou need to have it out with
God during that time, if youhave a really great deep
temptation and you just don'tunderstand why you can't engage
in this activity, and you haveit out with God and you say, god
, I don't think this is fair.
I don't think it's fair that Ihad these feelings and then I'm
(28:49):
not allowed to engage in themand so being able to even just
acknowledge that as well andknow that, if you can look at
healing in a way that this thingis not going to be the driving
force of my life, this is notthe thing that I'm going to wake
(29:10):
up every day and have to dealwith.
I will have days and times wherethis isn't a thing and I can
see a person of the same sex andnot be drawn to them, and
hopefully, when that happens,you can stop and celebrate the
(29:31):
fact that that didn't happen andto know that there might be
things that happen in your lifethat make you more vulnerable to
being tempted, and know thateven God wants to meet you there
.
It's no different than a personwho is trying not to overeat
(29:52):
and they have somethingemotional happen and the first
thing they want to do is turn tofood for comfort.
It's no different, and sothat's another thing.
If those who struggle with SSAcan divorce themselves from
being so different than anybodyelse who is struggling with any
(30:15):
other kind of unwanted sexualbehavior, this journey becomes a
very different journey.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
We all are called to carry our cross.
Jesus calls us all to do that.
Jesus calls us all to do that,and it sucks that some of our
crosses, in certain times andplaces, feel way heavier than
others.
Like in our culture.
In 2025, this cross can feelunbearable.
But I want to read this quote.
I don't actually know how topronounce this D Cassad, or
(30:44):
something like that, said it,not sure who, but God teaches
the soul by pains and obstacles,not by ideas.
God teaches the soul by painsand obstacles, not by ideas.
And I can't help but think,kyle, that you might not be the
incredible woman of God you aretoday if it wasn't for having to
walk through so manydifficulties.
(31:05):
One other really notable thing,too, is you said earlier,
earlier, like you didn'texperience sexual abuse, you had
a pretty good relationship withyour dad, you had a somewhat
normal upbringing, and it juststrikes me that so many of us
have bucketed in like this iswhat leads to same-sex
attraction If you're abused andyou have a bad relationship with
your dad or something like that.
Like that will lead to that.
(31:25):
But I think it just highlightswe're just really complicated
and all of us are actuallylooking for that satisfaction
you talked about in all kinds ofplaces.
So, whether it gets sexualizedand it becomes this person of
the same sex or this person ofthe opposite sex will solve my
issues, or this job will solvemy issues, or whatever, we're
actually missing the heart ofGod, that he's the one who wants
(31:47):
to meet us even now in ourissues.
And so, kyle, you've alreadytalked a lot about as we land
this plane.
You've already talked a lotabout how this kind of impacts
the way you minister indifferent ways to others, but
are there any other things you'dhighlight of?
Like?
My journey and what I've beenthrough and what I've
experienced with God leads me tominister to others in these
(32:10):
particular ways.
Are there any other piecesyou'd want to add?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, for sure.
I have so much more grace forpeople, and it's sad that there
are a lot of people that I talkto that have not experienced
grace.
There are a lot of people thatI talk to that have not
experienced grace.
They've experienced lots oflegalism and rules and
(32:34):
regulations and you know you'rea sinner and this is wrong and
you shouldn't be doing this,which you know.
There's truth in that right.
There's truth to confessing sin.
There's no, you know that hasto be done.
But there's also, like there'sa sadness that I allow people to
(33:04):
sit in.
Sit in because and I know thiscan be hard for some people to
hear but there is even sadnessin not sinning anymore.
There's a sadness in here'sthis thing that I depended on,
and you probably depended on itfor more than what you know,
(33:26):
more emotional support than youknow, and so saying goodbye to
something that you feel wasnurturing you, caring for you,
carrying you, is hard, and soeven just allowing people and
(33:48):
helping them enter into thegrief of that and giving them
the space to grieve.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
We do this really radical homework assignment in
Awaken 360.
I think it's in the heartmodule, which is in January
through March, where we write acounting the loss of our sexual
sin letter, as if we're writingit to a personified version.
You gave me this, you comfortedme when no one else was there.
I mean, it feels so weird, itfeels so uncomfortable, but it's
(34:18):
such an important step in thisprocess to acknowledge I wasn't
going to this for nothing, likethere's reasons I was going to
sin, like there's reasons I feltlike this would solve all my
deepest heart cries.
And so if we don't take somestock in that and acknowledge
man, like there's actually asadness to this, the next part
of the assignment, by the way,the second week, is counting the
(34:41):
cost.
So we've now grieved it some,but now we also need to
recognize this thing youpromised this, but dot, dot, dot
.
And then the next letter beginsyou know you really cost me
this and that, and so it's avery powerful exercise to grieve
.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, and I've done something similar like that with
clients, and then the otherthing I've had them to do is,
after they've had the grief,then go back and look at that,
what you grieved, and then seeif you can find something that
God has promised.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Ooh.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Right, so maybe you know.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Can you give us actually a personal example?
So?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
like you could say you know, like I got comfort
from being in this same-sexrelationship.
I felt seen and I felt known.
But then you maybe go.
Maybe you find I think it's inJeremiah I have loved you with
an everlasting love, right.
(35:40):
Or you go to Psalm 139, you arefearfully wounded.
I knitted you together in yourmother's womb.
Knitted you together in yourmother's womb.
Like you find that promise thatGod has for you, so that you
actually know that you're notjust giving up something and
(36:01):
hoping, like God has somespecific promises about filling
in what you are giving up.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Promises about filling in what you are giving
up.
You're making me think as wellof 2 Corinthians, I think,
chapter one like.
We share abundantly in thesufferings of Christ, all of us,
even if we don't seek them out,even if we're not causing them
ourselves, although we probablydo cause a handful but we also.
Therefore, how much more do weabound in the comfort God
(36:30):
actually wants to comfort us,which is funny to say, because
in America we're, you know, someof the most comfortable people
and et cetera.
But frankly, friends, we oftengo to these external comforts
because we're not actuallycomfortable inside, we're not
being comforted by God.
And so, kyle, as we close outtoday, would you just pray over
our listeners?
I want you to pray for thatcomfort, but also that really
(36:53):
struck me earlier, that idea ofjust praying that they'd be who
God made them to be and notsomeone else.
What a freeing, powerfulthought.
So could you pray that over ourlisteners?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Oh gracious God and Father.
Oh gracious God and Father.
You have made each of usindividually.
You didn't make robots.
You don't want just a bunch ofclones, but you have uniquely
(37:28):
designed each and every personto function in this world in a
way that's going to best reflectyour son Jesus to others.
And so, lord, for those folkswho are same-sex attracted and
feel even out of place, god,they feel like I don't have a
place, I'm not like the othergirls, I'm not like the other
guys, I have interests that theydon't have, or they dress
differently than I do, and Ijust feel so different.
(37:51):
God, I pray that you would meetthat person right now, and I
pray that you would remind themthat you're not trying to strip
them to nothing, that what youwant is for all of the stuff
that doesn't belong to fall away, so that the real them comes
out.
And you do that, god, throughtheir personalities, you do that
(38:16):
through even their quirkiness,and you do that through the
things that they love and theway that they like to dress.
And all of those things, god,are gifts you have given to each
one of us.
And so, lord, I pray in thename of Jesus that, whatever
mold that they were trying to beshaped into.
(38:38):
God, I ask that you would breakit.
Break that mold so that theycan be all of who you've called
them to be.
And so, lord, and I pray thatthose who were wearing masks,
those who were carrying falsepersonas, god would you free
(38:59):
them of that and allow theirtrue selves to shine through.
And, god, I pray that, as theydo that, that they will feel
more loved and valued by you,because they just never had an
opportunity to feel it before,because they were covered up
with so much other stuff.
(39:20):
And so, lord, I pray that everyperson listening will know your
heart for them, will know yourimmense love for them'll know
that what you're calling them tois not something that's so hard
and so difficult, or thatyou're trying to be mean to them
, but that you're calling theminto perfect love with you, so
(39:42):
they can experience what itmeans to live the abundant life
in your son Jesus.
And I lift this prayer in hisname Amen.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Amen.
Welcome everyone to Becoming Whole.
I'm James, one of the spiritualcoaches and the director of
projects here at Regen, and I'mjoined by our coaching director,
my wonderful supervisor andfriend, kyle Bowman.
Kyle, thanks for being on ourshow today.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Always glad to be with you, James.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So, friends, today we're going to get to hear some
of Kyle's story what it's lookedlike to walk through her
journey, and how her experiencesof overcoming and walking
through her journey of same-sexattraction impact the way she
ministers to others.
And so, whether or not you haveparticular USB same-sex
(00:38):
attraction, or even if youlisten to this podcast because
you've experienced betrayal oryou're a parent trying to figure
out how to parent your kids,there's going to be some really
deep insights from Kyle today onhow to ultimately grow closer
to Jesus, which is what we'reall about here at Regen.
So, kyle, whenever you're ready, could you just share your
(00:59):
story with us and how you got tothis place you're in today?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, sure.
So I grew up in what I wouldcall a typical home.
You know my parents wereeducators, you know typical kind
of middle-class family in theDC area, and I was an only child
(01:26):
.
And so, you know, when you'rean only child, it feels like
relationships with parents areeven more pronounced, right,
because you're the only kid,they don't have to give their
time to any other kid.
And so, you know, had a verygood bonding relationship with
(01:47):
my dad.
The relationship with my motherwas very different.
She was focused a lot on myperformance and how well I did
in school and how well I did inother activities, and there was
that part of me that just wantedto experience just the nurture
(02:09):
and the care and the emotionalconnection.
And so for me, the way I gotthat attention was through
performance.
And so there came a point as Istarted to, you know, get a
little older and mature and evenstarted to develop sexually,
(02:32):
you know I noticed that I hadjust this bigger draw toward
women.
And so you know, as a persongrowing up in the 70s, like I
knew nothing about homosexualityand what that was, all I knew
was that there was something Iwas experiencing, the feeling
(02:53):
that wanted to connect so muchmore deeply with women and so
Around.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
what age was this, Kyle, that you started to?
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I was probably around 11 or 12, I think, and so you
know you start to kind of seekthat out and I had really I had
good female friendships growingup, like I had like a core group
of girls that I hung out with.
So I didn't feel, you know,like I was separate or apart.
(03:26):
At least at that time I didn't,and so you know those were good
.
But then as I started to getolder, closer toward like
getting you know in high schooland getting ready to leave high
school you know in high schooland getting ready to leave high
(03:49):
school I came kind of to theknowledge about homosexuality
and so, because a lot of thiskind of started stirring when I
was developing sexually, for methen there was sexual desire
that got attached to it andromantic desire that got
attached to that.
And so once I found out whathomosexuality was, I was like,
(04:12):
oh, maybe that's me, becausethis is how I feel, and I feel
like I would do better in arelationship with women than I
would with men.
And not that I had any sort ofnever had bad experiences, you
know, overall with men.
So there wasn't.
I didn't have any abuse in mybackground, but there was just
(04:34):
this deep longing for emotionalconnection and in my mind that
also included some sort ofromantic or sexual connection to
that.
And so there was a point atwhich I decided that and I
actually was out of college bythat time that I decided that
(04:56):
this was a lifestyle I was goingto pursue and I did that, and I
did that for 11 years.
That and I did that for 11years.
And in the middle of that, youknow you, there are things that
you feel like will really, um,satisfy you.
They give you that, that deepsatisfaction, like you know, the
(05:18):
kind of satisfaction when yougo, wow, everything is right
with the world, kind of thing.
And it wasn't that there wasmore emotional turmoil and too
much emotional dependency.
That just wasn't healthy.
And so I started feeling that.
(05:43):
And I grew up in a Christianhome, so it's not like I didn't
know anything about Christianity.
I didn't know about what itmeant to have a relationship
with Jesus, but I couldcertainly tell you that Jesus
died for my sins, you know, andthat's probably about the extent
of what I would share, be ableto share.
(06:05):
And so there came a point whereI thought, well, maybe I need
to go back and try thisChristianity thing again because
I'm just not satisfied in thestage of life that I'm in and
(06:29):
the stage of life that I'm in.
And so I had a really goodfriend who, unbeknownst to me at
the time, she knew about mylifestyle and the way I was
living, but she was a devotedChristian and she had been
praying for me all along.
She had been praying for me andshe was a person who showed me
the true character of Christ inthat she, you know, she never
(06:52):
judged me, she never spoke downto me.
She always showed me what it'slike to be loved by Jesus.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Was that pretty typical for you, kyle, that
sense of like God wouldn't be,or, you know, christians
wouldn't be these judgmentalpeople, but people who actually
love?
Or was that not quite what yousaw?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, I wasn't expecting, because I knew it was
.
I understood that it wasagainst God's design.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
So my expectation was you know, christian people are
not gonna.
So my expectation was you know,christian people are not going
to, they're not going to goalong with this.
And I think too, in the timeperiod it wasn't a time period
where it is like today whereeverybody was willing to come
out and share their sexuality itwas still very much taboo.
So my expectation wasn't to be,you know, embraced and loved
(07:46):
and brought in Um, but she was aperson who, who just chose to
treat me differently.
And so I came to her one dayand I said you know what?
I want to go to your church,because if everybody is like you
at your church, I want to gothere.
And so I went.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
You hadn't been going to church, I'm guessing.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I hadn't been going to church since I graduated from
college is when I stopped goingto church and I was in a more
traditional.
I grew up as an Episcopalianand so, you know, stopped doing
that and then started going toher church and loved it, and the
(08:33):
Lord just stirred a hunger anda desire to pursue Him and I
just said, okay, I'm going to,you know, take all of this in.
And that's exactly what I did.
I just started taking in,understanding what is it?
What does it really mean to bea Christian, beyond just knowing
(08:55):
that Jesus died for your sinsand understanding that way, like
, what does it mean to toconfess that you are a sinner?
What does it mean that weneeded a Savior?
What does it mean to have theHoly Spirit indwell you and lead
(09:16):
you through your life?
And what does it mean to be astudent of the Word of God?
So I just started just taking inall of that word of God.
So I just started just takingin all of that and I think you
know so many people, james, askme.
They say, well, you know, kyle,what was it?
What was the thing?
Because I think a lot of peoplewant to be able to go and say
(09:37):
that to their friend or theirson or their daughter and go.
Well, this person did this andthis is what changed their life.
And for me, I did not focus onchange.
I focused on what it means tofollow Christ, and one of the
things that we used to say inour Path Through Wilderness
(10:01):
program often is we're notpursuing healing, we're pursuing
the healer.
Wow, and I think that is thething that just flipped
everything on its head for me isthat I don't have to pursue the
change because that's going tobe God's job.
(10:21):
My job is to pursue Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's going to be God's job.
My job is to pursue Jesus.
Kyle, what on earth taught youthis?
I don't feel like most of usare taught this.
How did you figure that out asan early 30-something going to
this friend's church?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
I really think that it was just something.
Once I was able to open my eyes, I think it was just something
the Lord did in me.
I don't think back then I couldhave articulated it that way.
I can articulate it this waynow, but I don't think I could
(10:58):
have.
Then I would have probably justsaid well, you know, I'm just
going to church and I'm readingmy Bible.
I would have said, probablyvery casually, very cavalierly
right, like you know, I'm justdoing this, this is what I'm
doing, and not reallyunderstanding that the Lord was
in his sovereignty, in his mercy, in his grace for me, me was
(11:22):
teaching me himself what itmeant to pursue him.
And you know I'm wired a certainway.
You know the Lord knows I'm alearner, you know he loves, he
knows I love to ingest all theinformation and do all the
reading.
And so he just ignited, youknow he gave me this passion to
(11:46):
go, just like you go, and youget all this information in
these other places.
You can dive into the word inthe same way.
And then that's what I did, andI went to all the Bible studies
and did all the things and theLord did the change in my heart,
like I didn't have to sitaround going oh God, please take
(12:08):
this away.
I don't think I ever prayedthat prayer.
I think it was always.
You know, help me to be theperson I'm supposed to be.
And I think the other thing thatgave me a lot of freedom was,
you know, I always tell peoplelike I'm not the girl that's
(12:29):
going to be, you know, the girlygirl, if you will, I'm not
going to be the one that'strying to be all cute, made up
and all this.
And part of what I was thinkingwas, man, I'm going to have to
(12:51):
change just all of who I am.
And God gave me the freedom toknow that, while there were some
things outwardly that needed tobe changed, they weren't so
dramatic that they would take meout of who he created me to be,
and that I could better reflecthis son to me, to others, if I
(13:14):
was just going to be who hecreated me to be.
And so once I was able tosettle into that comfort, then I
was like, oh, oh, oh, okay,this is cool and great, like I
can still, you know, be the girlin the jeans and the tennis
(13:39):
shoes and the whatever, and nothave to worry about trying to
present some other persona thatwasn't really me.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You didn't feel like you had to fall into the
stereotypes that were and arestill present for many women and
many men in our culture of whatit means to be a woman or man.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Absolutely, absolutely.
For me, what I've discovered,what it means for me to be a
woman, is to be the person thatGod has created me to be, so
that I can reflect Jesus to theworld, because if I try to be
somebody else, they're not goingto see Jesus, they're going to
see fake.
(14:13):
Kyle is what they're going tosee.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Oh my goodness.
I don't know if the listenersare feeling this, but I'm like.
I want the faith that Kyle hasand I often think this when we
get to meet.
But I'm also like man what aword to the church in the US and
where we're located.
We probably have some listenersaround the world, but at least
in our context like how many ofus are convinced I've got to be
(14:38):
the fake, acting like I have itall together, persona Christian
thing that seems like everyoneelse is trying to do, and you're
like God was just cuttingthrough some of that mess in
your life.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Absolutely, absolutely, and it was like I
said, it was the most freeingthing that I could have ever
experienced, and I think thatpeople, if you talk to people
who know me, they will tell youthat what they see is the
(15:15):
authentic me.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, One of the things that blocks joy you know,
a sense of being glad to betogether, this relational joy
One of the things that blocks itis wearing a mask, and I think
that's part of why, Kyle, youare one of the most joyful
people I know.
It's like God helped you takeoff some of those masks in your
30s and throughout your life sothat you could be who you were
(15:40):
made to be, Kyle, was there sortof like a moment of like I'm
now surrendering my life toJesus, a conversion, a born
again kind of experience?
Or was it just kind of like Istarted following Jesus and he
just started to do what only hecan do?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
No, I did have a specific conversion experience
and it's pretty cool because itwas, I don't know.
People are probably familiarwith the Gideon Bible and they
used to have pocket NewTestaments and in the back of
them there was like the prayeryou know Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
And so.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I prayed through that .
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So tee it up a little bit, like you're at your
friend's church now, and thenyou come across the Skideon
Bible or what was the context Igot it.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I can't even remember how I got this little pocket.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I mean they put them in hotel rooms, but they usually
put the full-size one right, somaybe that wasn't the topic.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
This was only a New Testament and it was small.
It was probably like asix-point font.
Oh my goodness, it was so supersmall.
But in the back of it I had itand I remember just going
through it and I would readdifferent things in it and for
some reason I flipped to theback of it, would read different
(16:52):
things in it and for somereason I flipped to the back of
it and in the back of it it justhad a prayer to just to walk
you through, you know, givingyour life to Christ, and then it
had a place for you to sign anddate when you did it and that's
what I did.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Wow.
But you're already in thiscontext of like you were
beginning to follow Jesus aslike a disciple.
You're like I want to learnfrom him, I'm going to this
church, and then it sounds likea couple years into that, you
kind of had this sort ofdefinitive moment, like I've
decided to follow Jesus, noturning back.
Is that how it was?
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Well, it was a little closer.
It was so like when I startedgoing to my friend's church I
had started reading scripture,and that's when I had started
with that.
So, we're talking maybe somemonths into that, not years into
that.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Yeah, wow, that's incredible.
What about?
So?
We got this time in your 30swhere you're coming to this
church.
You know you're loved by yourfriend.
You want more of what she's got.
You know the people around heryou're hoping in that church
would be like that.
What are some of therelationships like that God put
(18:06):
in your life?
Small group of people who lovedyou well, where there are some
older women who were doing thatlike 11 am prayer on a Saturday
or whatever they do and coveringthe whole world in prayer.
What was some of the?
Was there some relationalelements to this for you?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah for sure, and there was a part of it that was
difficult, because when youspend 11 years living a certain
way, that means you're totallyimmersed into that way of life,
and so now I'm being pulled 100%out of that, away from this
(18:57):
large community that I wasconnected to very regularly and
engaging with people all thetime, and now stepping out of
that and then having to createnew community.
And so the first couple ofyears were hard because it took
a while to get the community.
Of years were hard because ittook a while to get the
community.
One was I just had to feel safeenough and my friend she was
(19:17):
probably she and her husbandwere the people I felt the
safest with.
And then also I had a bestfriend who was also a believer,
and so my connections werereally small and so, but it was
hard because I am, you know, Ilove to be around people, I love
(19:39):
to connect with people, I loveto sit down and have
conversations and engage withpeople.
And so the first, I would sayprobably two to three years were
hard because it took me thatlong to feel comfortable enough
in community and to feel like Icould trust people in community.
(20:02):
And so as I started going tosmall groups at my church, and
then it was God.
It was just so gracious to me.
He gave me a couple of mentors.
There was one gentleman I'llnever forget him, his name is
Elder Carter, and he just tookto me for some reason and he was
(20:24):
always speaking lives to me, hewould talk with me about the
scriptures and he wouldencourage me in my walk and you
know, for whatever reason, hejust kind of just gravitated to
me and and mentored me and andeven fathered me in a way and so
(20:44):
and and that.
As I got to connect with himand then I started connecting
with the people in my smallgroup and then I just you know,
then the friendship and thecommunity started growing as I
started becoming more active inmy church.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
It's really amazing because it sounds like he was
really developing primarily anattachment with him through your
friend.
Your friend was the one kind ofinviting you your one or two
friends that you had tight-knitcommunity with but he was really
doing something just like youand him for a while, for a while
, yes.
That's hard.
Yeah, that's really difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
And there's a thing of then trying to.
Is there a way for me tomaintain certain friendships
without me not honoring who Iwas becoming in Christ?
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yeah, how did that work out for you?
Did you end up maintaining any?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
There were one or two people who would stay in
contact with me.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
From your previous community, yeah, from the
previous community, a couplepeople.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
What is also just as beautiful is that there were
several in the community whoalso gave their lives to Christ
and had just so tremendoustransformation.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Did they also experience desires shifting and
things like that?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah, wow, they did, they did.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
That's a paradigm.
If I'm listening in my 2025millennial brain, as I imagine
there's you know otherslistening when we're recording
like that doesn't sound right,like to our ears, right Like
wait.
Desires toward the same sex,shifted.
Like how do you think aboutthat, kyle?
Because I mean one of thethings that I love, bob Reagan,
(22:41):
who used to work with us he'sretired.
He would always say to me thatand he experienced a very
similar story to what you allhave heard from Kyle.
But he would tell me that whenhe's working with men, with SSA
and I apply this to the work Ido with and he would as well to
men with opposite sex attractionor a mixture or whatever he
would say the only orientationhe's concerned with changing is
(23:05):
your orientation toward Jesus,which is very similar to the
heartbeat of what God did inyour life, kyle, in that time.
So in some sense at Regent wedon't like assume what God may
or may not do, but there'sactually parallels here.
Like for my journey withpornography, it was like God, I
(23:27):
desire this thing so bad, butpart of my journey has been not
desiring that anymore.
So I think there's a lot ofareas in our life where, if we
look objectively, we can seedesires get shifted by God over
time.
Like I desire to pig out ondonuts every day in college and
now I don't, you know, orwhatever it is right.
(23:47):
So how do you think about that,kyle, in your life and the
lives of those that you've seenwalk through a similar journey?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Well, I think one important thing is to know that,
you know, not everybody'sjourney looks the same Right,
and I think you know there canbe.
For people who have same-sexattraction, they can have this
feeling of chronic uniquenessand to say, well, you know, my
(24:18):
thing is just so very differentand it's going to, you know,
feel different and it's going to, you know it's going to be
harder or maybe it won't everchange, because they feel like
it's so embedded.
And I think part of the reasonwhy it feels so, a part of who
you think you are, is becauseyou know you're not a human
(24:42):
without being sexual.
Right.
Sexuality is imprinted in us byGod and so when you're talking
about sexual orientation, you'retalking about something that is
inherent to who you are,because if you take it away,
you're not human anymore.
(25:02):
Yeah, it said God created themmale and female, so there's
something about creating us assex beings that is intrinsic,
actually, to our Absolutelybeings that is intrinsic
actually to our absolutely uhand so and so I think part of
being able to kind of walk thisout is acknowledging just that
feeling, is that this feels soinherently right to me, and I
(25:31):
don't know that that getsacknowledged all the time.
When people are walking withothers who are working through
SSA, they don't get somebody whocan understand that this feels
so inherently right to me.
I think that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And, by the way, I'll just say on that that there's a
somewhat popular image.
I forget who originated it, butthey describe how we often
think that we're just likedriving our emotions, like we're
driving a car, but actuallyit's much more like a little
person on a large elephant.
The elephant represents theemotions and in some sense
emotions are dumb.
They're not dumb in the senseof like unintelligent, but
(26:13):
they're literally not like uh,rational, right, that doesn't
get, not that they're bad.
You might hear not rational andthink that means they're bad.
That's actually enlightenmentthat taught us that.
But they're not bad, butthey're just kind of like like a
big elephant, like they're thisbig, powerful thing that does
also need direction.
But part of what I'm trying tohighlight here is how even those
(26:33):
of us who think we'reintellectual we think we're, you
know, more left brain orientedor whatever we're still actually
being driven more often thannot by our emotions to one
degree or another.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, they play a big part.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
We have to acknowledge that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yes, yeah, and so I think again, being able to
acknowledge that and thenunderstanding that your journey
may look very, very differentthan someone else's and it may
take a long time, it couldreally take a long time, and are
(27:12):
you willing to trust the Lordin that and also to know to even
start thinking about what doyou?
What does healing mean?
Because I think that's anotherthing that trips people up, and
I think that happens, you know,with any unwanted sexual
behavior.
You know healing means I amnever going to get tempted ever
(27:36):
again in my whole entire life.
This is going to be absolutelygone for me and I don't have to
deal with it anymore.
But if Jesus came to walk in theflesh so we could understand
how to walk in the flesh whenfleshly things rise up, I don't
think you get to experience thisdepth of intimacy with him to
(28:02):
walk you through the hard stuffand you know I just kind of
think about you know, the psalmsays weeping may endure for a
night, but joy comes in themorning.
You might have to weep somenights, but in the weeping you
get to experience how God canmeet you, you get to have it out
(28:29):
, and you get to have it out, ifyou need to have it out with
God during that time, if youhave a really great deep
temptation and you just don'tunderstand why you can't engage
in this activity, and you haveit out with God and you say, god
, I don't think this is fair.
I don't think it's fair that Ihad these feelings and then I'm
(28:49):
not allowed to engage in themand so being able to even just
acknowledge that as well andknow that, if you can look at
healing in a way that this thingis not going to be the driving
force of my life, this is notthe thing that I'm going to wake
(29:10):
up every day and have to dealwith.
I will have days and times wherethis isn't a thing and I can
see a person of the same sex andnot be drawn to them, and
hopefully, when that happens,you can stop and celebrate the
(29:31):
fact that that didn't happen andto know that there might be
things that happen in your lifethat make you more vulnerable to
being tempted, and know thateven God wants to meet you there
.
It's no different than a personwho is trying not to overeat
(29:52):
and they have somethingemotional happen and the first
thing they want to do is turn tofood for comfort.
It's no different, and sothat's another thing.
If those who struggle with SSAcan divorce themselves from
being so different than anybodyelse who is struggling with any
(30:15):
other kind of unwanted sexualbehavior, this journey becomes a
very different journey.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
We all are called to carry our cross.
Jesus calls us all to do that.
Jesus calls us all to do that,and it sucks that some of our
crosses, in certain times andplaces, feel way heavier than
others.
Like in our culture.
In 2025, this cross can feelunbearable.
But I want to read this quote.
I don't actually know how topronounce this D Cassad, or
(30:44):
something like that, said it,not sure who, but God teaches
the soul by pains and obstacles,not by ideas.
God teaches the soul by painsand obstacles, not by ideas.
And I can't help but think,kyle, that you might not be the
incredible woman of God you aretoday if it wasn't for having to
walk through so manydifficulties.
(31:05):
One other really notable thing,too, is you said earlier,
earlier, like you didn'texperience sexual abuse, you had
a pretty good relationship withyour dad, you had a somewhat
normal upbringing, and it juststrikes me that so many of us
have bucketed in like this iswhat leads to same-sex
attraction If you're abused andyou have a bad relationship with
your dad or something like that.
Like that will lead to that.
(31:25):
But I think it just highlightswe're just really complicated
and all of us are actuallylooking for that satisfaction
you talked about in all kinds ofplaces.
So, whether it gets sexualizedand it becomes this person of
the same sex or this person ofthe opposite sex will solve my
issues, or this job will solvemy issues, or whatever, we're
actually missing the heart ofGod, that he's the one who wants
(31:47):
to meet us even now in ourissues.
And so, kyle, you've alreadytalked a lot about as we land
this plane.
You've already talked a lotabout how this kind of impacts
the way you minister indifferent ways to others, but
are there any other things you'dhighlight of?
Like?
My journey and what I've beenthrough and what I've
experienced with God leads me tominister to others in these
(32:10):
particular ways.
Are there any other piecesyou'd want to add?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Yeah, for sure.
I have so much more grace forpeople, and it's sad that there
are a lot of people that I talkto that have not experienced
grace.
There are a lot of people thatI talk to that have not
experienced grace.
They've experienced lots oflegalism and rules and
(32:34):
regulations and you know you'rea sinner and this is wrong and
you shouldn't be doing this,which you know.
There's truth in that right.
There's truth to confessing sin.
There's no, you know that hasto be done.
But there's also, like there'sa sadness that I allow people to
(33:04):
sit in.
Sit in because and I know thiscan be hard for some people to
hear but there is even sadnessin not sinning anymore.
There's a sadness in here'sthis thing that I depended on,
and you probably depended on itfor more than what you know,
(33:26):
more emotional support than youknow, and so saying goodbye to
something that you feel wasnurturing you, caring for you,
carrying you, is hard, and soeven just allowing people and
(33:48):
helping them enter into thegrief of that and giving them
the space to grieve.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
We do this really radical homework assignment in
Awaken 360.
I think it's in the heartmodule, which is in January
through March, where we write acounting the loss of our sexual
sin letter, as if we're writingit to a personified version.
You gave me this, you comfortedme when no one else was there.
I mean, it feels so weird, itfeels so uncomfortable, but it's
(34:18):
such an important step in thisprocess to acknowledge I wasn't
going to this for nothing, likethere's reasons I was going to
sin, like there's reasons I feltlike this would solve all my
deepest heart cries.
And so if we don't take somestock in that and acknowledge
man, like there's actually asadness to this, the next part
of the assignment, by the way,the second week, is counting the
(34:41):
cost.
So we've now grieved it some,but now we also need to
recognize this thing youpromised this, but dot, dot, dot
.
And then the next letter beginsyou know you really cost me
this and that, and so it's avery powerful exercise to grieve
.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, and I've done something similar like that with
clients, and then the otherthing I've had them to do is,
after they've had the grief,then go back and look at that,
what you grieved, and then seeif you can find something that
God has promised.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Ooh.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Right, so maybe you know.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Can you give us actually a personal example?
So?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
like you could say you know, like I got comfort
from being in this same-sexrelationship.
I felt seen and I felt known.
But then you maybe go.
Maybe you find I think it's inJeremiah I have loved you with
an everlasting love, right.
(35:40):
Or you go to Psalm 139, you arefearfully wounded.
I knitted you together in yourmother's womb.
Knitted you together in yourmother's womb.
Like you find that promise thatGod has for you, so that you
actually know that you're notjust giving up something and
(36:01):
hoping, like God has somespecific promises about filling
in what you are giving up.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Promises about filling in what you are giving
up.
You're making me think as wellof 2 Corinthians, I think,
chapter one like.
We share abundantly in thesufferings of Christ, all of us,
even if we don't seek them out,even if we're not causing them
ourselves, although we probablydo cause a handful but we also.
Therefore, how much more do weabound in the comfort God
(36:30):
actually wants to comfort us,which is funny to say, because
in America we're, you know, someof the most comfortable people
and et cetera.
But frankly, friends, we oftengo to these external comforts
because we're not actuallycomfortable inside, we're not
being comforted by God.
And so, kyle, as we close outtoday, would you just pray over
our listeners?
I want you to pray for thatcomfort, but also that really
(36:53):
struck me earlier, that idea ofjust praying that they'd be who
God made them to be and notsomeone else.
What a freeing, powerfulthought.
So could you pray that over ourlisteners?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Oh gracious God and Father.
Oh gracious God and Father.
You have made each of usindividually.
You didn't make robots.
You don't want just a bunch ofclones, but you have uniquely
(37:28):
designed each and every personto function in this world in a
way that's going to best reflectyour son Jesus to others.
And so, lord, for those folkswho are same-sex attracted and
feel even out of place, god,they feel like I don't have a
place, I'm not like the othergirls, I'm not like the other
guys, I have interests that theydon't have, or they dress
differently than I do, and Ijust feel so different.
(37:51):
God, I pray that you would meetthat person right now, and I
pray that you would remind themthat you're not trying to strip
them to nothing, that what youwant is for all of the stuff
that doesn't belong to fall away, so that the real them comes
out.
And you do that, god, throughtheir personalities, you do that
(38:16):
through even their quirkiness,and you do that through the
things that they love and theway that they like to dress.
And all of those things, god,are gifts you have given to each
one of us.
And so, lord, I pray in thename of Jesus that, whatever
mold that they were trying to beshaped into.
(38:38):
God, I ask that you would breakit.
Break that mold so that theycan be all of who you've called
them to be.
And so, lord, and I pray thatthose who were wearing masks,
those who were carrying falsepersonas, god would you free
(38:59):
them of that and allow theirtrue selves to shine through.
And, god, I pray that, as theydo that, that they will feel
more loved and valued by you,because they just never had an
opportunity to feel it before,because they were covered up
with so much other stuff.
(39:20):
And so, lord, I pray that everyperson listening will know your
heart for them, will know yourimmense love for them'll know
that what you're calling them tois not something that's so hard
and so difficult, or thatyou're trying to be mean to them
, but that you're calling theminto perfect love with you, so
(39:42):
they can experience what itmeans to live the abundant life
in your son Jesus.
And I lift this prayer in hisname Amen.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Amen.
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