April 1, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, Josh and Kyle Bowman, the Director of Coaches at Regen, dive deep into the experiences and challenges faced by singles, especially within the Christian community. They discuss the unique loneliness singles may feel, particularly in church settings, and emphasize that singleness should not be seen as merely a transitional phase.
Kyle shares invaluable insights from her personal journey as a mature single woman, highlighting the importance of community, self-acceptance, and finding joy in one's own company. They also tackle the topic of managing sexual desire in a way that honors God, providing practical advice on how to navigate these feelings with faith and resilience. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to lead a relationally and sexually whole life, whether single or married.
Resources: A Celebration of Singleness
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, we are back Today.
I want to start with just aquick story.
I was at a church event not toolong ago and I just happened to
be sitting next to somebody Ididn't know, a woman in her 60s,
I think, maybe early, I'm not100% sure.
We start chatting and I learnsomehow early on that she's
single.
And as an older single, I wasjust intrigued because of my
(00:22):
work here at Regen, walking withmen and women who are wrestling
with sexual brokenness issues.
It's not uncommon to be talkingto singles about their
experience with relationshipsand sexuality and those kinds of
things.
So I kind of just pressed inand started asking a couple of
questions to this woman and shesaid something in the middle of
our conversation she's healthyand content and has got good
relationships in the church.
Healthy and content and has gotgood relationships in the
(00:43):
church.
But at one point she saidsometimes Sunday mornings can be
Sunday Sunday the Sunday hourfor church that my hour at
church can be the loneliest hourof my week.
And I just felt like, oh mygosh, it just kind of stabbed me
because I thought this, itought not be that way.
There is, there is.
There are unique kinds ofloneliness for singles, but it
(01:06):
ought not be that way in church,and we know that many of you
listening are married or are invarious places in your own
relationship.
Some of you are struggling inyour marriage, some of you have
happy marriages and some of youare single.
But what we're going to talkabout today Kyle and I are going
to talk about today, isimportant for everybody in the
church.
We're going to get into meat.
That's really really importantif you want to live a
(01:28):
relationally and sexually wholelife, whether you're single or
married.
But we're going to talk aboutsingleness today.
So Kyle Bowman is the directorof our coaches at Regen.
You've met her before, ifyou've been listening to this
podcast at all.
Kyle, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I'm so glad to be joining you, Josh all Kyle,
welcome back.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I'm so glad to be joining you, josh Kyle, as we
dig into this topic today justfor context.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Why am I talking to you about singleness?
Well, part of that is because Iam single.
I'm a single, never marriedperson.
And I'm not the youngest singleperson, I'm a little bit on the
mature side.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You're 34, 35 now.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
God bless you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Notice, if you're listening.
She didn't say like no, I'm notthat, I'm this.
She just kept that kind ofquiet.
Anyway, go ahead.
Sorry, I don't mean to.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No, but yeah, I think it is not talked about enough.
Just singleness is not talkedabout enough outside of oh, how
do you prepare yourself formarriage?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Not.
How do you prepare yourself fora life that might not include
marriage, a life that might notinclude marriage, and what does
that look like?
And how to encourage peoplemaybe who already had that sense
that they're not called tomarriage.
And so how do you talk to thosefolks and help them to know
(03:00):
that, like they're not standingon the fringes of life, standing
on the fringes of life, thatGod has a very wonderful life
and purpose for them in theirsingleness, and they don't have
to be like in this holdingpattern or this waiting pattern
of oh then when I get married, Iwill be fill in the blank, so
(03:21):
then when I get married, I willbe fill in the blank.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like you know, I like
that word.
Holding pattern, likesingleness, doesn't just have to
be for some people.
It is Some people, not aholding pattern.
I don't think it should ever bea holding pattern, but for some
people it is a it's an interimseason of life.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
A season of life.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yes, some people.
It's an unwanted prolongedseason of life.
Some people have been marriedand find themselves single again
, either because of the death ofa spouse or divorce.
So there's lots of reasons thatpeople find themselves single.
And I think what you're gettingafter in some ways is we want
to kind of blow up or just kindof really pull down this false
(04:03):
idea that singleness is just aholding pattern.
It's just kind of like asomething that's you're not like
.
The people are not supposed tobe single, at least not for long
, and if they are, something'swrong.
The other thing we're going toget after in this podcast a bit
is especially in this culture,because if you're, if you're not
a Christian, you're notfollowing Jesus.
(04:24):
If you're not adhering to whatscripture teaches about sex and
sexuality and you're single,then go ahead and have sex with
as many people as you want.
Might be your way to addressloneliness, address sexual
desire, those kinds of things.
We don't condone that.
We're saying non-Christiansmight not have a problem with
that, but for Christians, wedon't condone that.
(04:44):
We're saying non-Christiansmight not have a problem with
that, but for Christians, fordevout men and women who find
themselves single and who arewrestling with sexual desires or
just simply feeling sexualdesire, which is a very normal,
god-given experience.
What are they supposed to dowith that?
And I think that's anotherplace where churches and
Christianity hasn't done a greatjob of talking about like, yeah
(05:05):
, what are people supposed to dothat?
I think that's where we oftenhear, you know that really bad
advice about what people aresupposed to do.
So we'll get into that a littlebit later.
Kyle, maybe begin just on aheart level.
What's?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
your experience been like as a Christian woman in
various church settings notnecessarily certainly in your
church, but just in Christiancircles around that you show up
to, somebody asks the questionoh, so you see anybody?
Oh, you're getting married.
Oh, you know that thing.
I've been blessed not to havebeen approached in that way.
(05:59):
However, I definitely have beenaround those who have, and you
know sometimes they dread goinghome for the Christmas holiday
or Thanksgiving because peopleare going oh you didn't bring
anybody with you.
Oh, are you seeing anybody?
Oh, and they're.
(06:23):
You know constantly having toaddress that in some of the
circles they're in.
But the thing that I found islike typically all the single
folks kind of hung together.
There wasn't like there wasn'tlike this mixture of, oh, I hang
out with the married people andI hang out with the single
people you know, and thechurches I've been like we have
(06:46):
all kind of stayed together andhave had like long-term
friendships, like even if peoplewent off to a different church
or moved away, we still stayedin contact.
Like you know, we kept thatgroup chat text going with us
together, and so that's more ofthe experience that I've had is
(07:07):
just that you had this kind ofgroup of singles that you hung
with and those are the peoplethat you ended up spending more
time hanging out with and doingthings with.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, if you were to think about kind of like on a
monthly basis, like the peoplethat you connect with in a
meaningful way, outside of work,outside of, maybe, a church
service, what would you say?
How many of those for you aresingle versus married?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
the 95 of them are single okay, yeah, I would say
that for some reason, likewhether it's divorce, whether
it's widowed, but but 94 ornever married, like 95% of them
are single.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, and I would say that's probably the same for me
with marrieds.
Like the 95% of people I hangout with or I would see in a
meaningful way are maybe alittle little less than that are
, but most of them are married.
Little less than that are, butmost of them are married.
They've got one one dear friendwho is is never been married
and we we connect about once amonth and that's a meaningful
(08:10):
but yeah, it's interesting.
I wonder.
I mean I'm kind of outing us ina way but like cause?
I guess?
In some ways I'm like I thinkpart of what we're advocating in
this podcast is it shouldn't bethis way, but like why?
I mean let's take should out ofit for a minute.
Like why is that?
Why is that for you?
Like, would it?
And then I'll kind of sharewhat that's like for me.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Maybe it's just because of life circumstances
dependent upon, like, what yourage bracket is.
You know, maybe most people are, they have small children or
they have children, and thereare a lot.
There's a lot of focus onhaving to do things with their
family.
Oh, the kids have this, or, youknow, my husband has this or my
(08:55):
family is going to do this.
So there's, you know, there'srightly so there's a focus on
family and it's interesting,like the my best friend is
married.
They don't have any childrenand so there's a lot more
interaction with the two of us.
(09:15):
I, I get invited to their homeall the time.
They're they're not these otheroutside things that they have
to attend to in terms of justthe core of their family, so I
can spend a lot of time therewith them and get invited.
There have been a couple ofmarried people at my church who
(09:37):
were like you know, I reallywant to have you over for dinner
, me and my wife, we want tohave you over, and some of those
things just did not come tofruition, but I've been
approached a couple of timeslike that.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think life circumstances somuch of the burden, the weight,
the challenges that I experienceday to day, that I look for
support in dealing with, areabout being a husband or being a
father.
So in some ways that makessense to me, although I will say
also maybe we'll get into thisa little bit later but the value
(10:16):
of hearing and being influencedby single brothers and sisters
in the Lord and maybe for me,especially singles who have been
single for a long time theyhave a wisdom about some things
and perspective about somethings I do not get from married
(10:36):
brothers and sisters.
And yeah, so we'll come back tothat, I think, a little bit
later, because I do think thatthere's.
You know that if there aredifferent parts of the body and
the eye can't say to the hand, Ihave no need of you.
I think that that's probably animportant admonition for
marrieds and singles in relationto each other in the church
that we should be wary of ofanything that says like you know
(10:57):
, I'm good, I'm good at just myown kind, kyle, you, you, you.
You made a comment as we wereprepping for this and I just
want you to speak to and there'sa little bit of a gear shift
here, but you were talking aboutwholeness and I think some of
it comes from your experience asa coach here at region and
working with people here.
There's almost a sense amongsome people that I need to get
(11:18):
after the broken parts of mylife, become whole so that I can
become married, and you were.
You were kind of challengingthat like what's, what's your
experience with that Ben and and?
And what would you say tolisteners who kind of feel that
way Like yeah, I want to.
Yeah, I mean, what's on your,your heart with that?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, I.
I think, as you know several ofthe women that I've talked to
over the years of being a coach,there is this longing that you
know they understand.
Okay, I had this thing.
I have to get after it so thatI can be the wife that I need to
(11:56):
be.
I can, you know, I'm healthyenough to get into a
relationship, into arelationship, and they don't
think about wait, like how aboutshifting that perspective and
allowing your drive toward thatto actually be?
I want to be whole because Iwant to be the person that God
(12:19):
has called me to be right, andnot just so that I am, you know,
this person.
That's just a.
Now I'm more available formarriage Because I think part of
what can happen is you can stepinto a relationship and think,
(12:41):
well, because I'm whole,everything's going to be okay,
relationships will be great andfine, I won't have any issues
because I'll be healthy and notunderstanding weight, like life
is a sanctifying, asanctification process that
there's always going to be stuffthat the Lord reveals and shows
you whether you're in arelationship or not, and so
(13:04):
really kind of helping peoplehave a heart shift to say, wait,
like no matter what, I want tobe whole, no matter what,
because it's what God desiresfor me.
And and I think even, andsometimes even, when it's not
necessarily a tie tied tomarriage, not necessarily tied
(13:30):
to marriage, but like, oh, whenI'm whole I'll be a more, I'll
be a better worship leader, Ican serve, be a better servant
in the church, I can serve nowin the church, I I I'll have
this sort of like carte blanchething to do all this stuff
because I will have gotten ridof this thing and I won't have
any more issues to deal with soI can engage more in things in
(13:53):
life.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I think it's interesting on the because on
the one hand there's there'struth to it, like I'm grateful
that I went through that.
I got some therapy goodChristian therapy and then I got
involved in a regen groupbefore I got married.
Like man, I saved myself somuch heartache and trouble in
marriage because porn did nothave a hold on me and some of
(14:16):
the other sexual sins that I wasengaging in were a thing of the
past by the time I got married.
Like it helped.
But I think part of what you'regetting after with that is that
that we, we can almost holdhealth and wholeness as a a
bartering chip with the Lord forthe next thing, and I think
what it exposes is is ouridolatry of whatever that next
(14:38):
thing is, like you know, being aworship leader, being a pastor,
being a husband, being a wifeand I.
I think what we miss when wehave kind of uphold like hold
that up, as this is where I'mgoing to find value and so I
need to, I need to get better soI can have be valuable in this
way.
We miss that and correct me ifI'm wrong, but I think what I'm
hearing you say is that we misshow much God values us right now
(15:02):
that his desire for our healing, his desire for our freedom,
his desire for our wholeness isbecause we are so valuable to
him here now Like it's not sothat we can become more valuable
later.
It is that God's sanctifying us.
He's working these things outin your life, wants to you to
(15:23):
get after these things becauseyou're his treasure and it's
you're not going to become morehis treasure when you are quote
unquote marriage material orpastor material or leader
material.
Those things are just add-onsto sharing life and ministry
with him.
They're not badges you wear ormarkers of your value.
(15:43):
Is that?
Am I connecting to some dotsthere?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, and some of it is unlearning some of what
you've heard in church.
So often, marriage is held upas the gold standard, if you
will.
This is the thing that everyperson needs to strive for,
(16:10):
which is very sad to think thatBecause, again, like, if there
is an individual who is just notcalled to marriage, they know
that God has set them apart forsomething else.
What does that do for a personwho is there or a person who,
(16:33):
where they are, they're like I'mnot really ready for that.
I don't think I'm ready forthat, and so why should I try to
pursue something that I'm notready for, which is
heartbreaking to think that I'vegot to.
Yeah, I think that this is whatI got to do, and then I think
(16:55):
that that can be what happens.
Then you go.
Well, I guess, if I got to dothis, you know you get yourself
into a relationship that istotally not healthy.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, so let me push you a little bit here.
Let me just ask this question,like to the listeners who are,
whether married or single,listening going like wait, what
are you talking about?
Like, what could be a highercalling than than than marriage
and family?
What would you say to that?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I would say that takes such a big brain shift to
think.
I don't think we think aboutthe fact that we are the bride
of Christ.
I don't think that's.
I know.
For me that wasn't a thing, andso it's thinking wait, there is
a marriage that's going tohappen that's so much bigger and
(17:43):
better than what will beexperienced on earth.
And am I okay with being ableto maybe I do have to sit in the
pain a little bit of what itmeans to not have that longing
(18:05):
met but anticipate that there isthis wedding feast that's going
to take place that will putearthly marriage to shame, and
not to say that as a way ofknocking earthly marriage, but
that even people who are marriedhave to understand that this is
(18:30):
not the end, all to be all,because then what happens is you
end up idolizing your spouse,and what God longs for is for us
to really want what is coming.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, that's so good.
Okay, I gotta riff here alittle bit with you here,
because, on like for christians,for the christian church to
find themselves upholdingmarriage and family as the
ultimate calling, like this isthe like.
What could be more important isto miss so much of the reality
(19:11):
of scripture.
Our savior did not marry on theearth.
He is the bridegroom and therewill be a wedding one day, a
spiritual union, not a sexualunion.
A spiritual union between thebridegroom, christ, and his
bride, the church.
We follow him, we are followersof him.
So why would we think thatevery single person who's
(19:32):
following him would have to bemarried on the earth?
The primary author of the NewTestament, paul, who's got more
letters in the New Testamentthan anybody else, did not marry
and said in Romans said I'msorry.
First Corinthians seven said Iwish that you would be like me
and remain single, because ifyou're married, you got to busy
yourself with you know,concerning about your wife and
(19:53):
your kids, but, like, if you'resingle, you can devote yourself
just to the Lord.
He didn't, it wasn't a command,it's not.
He wasn't trying to flip theyou know the script and say you
know the not you know.
Now the highest calling is tobe single.
But I think I think throughthrough both of of of the
example of Christ, the exampleof Paul, the example of so many
(20:15):
saints through the ages, werecognize that there there
actually is a higher callingthan marriage and children, and
it is obedience, following theLord.
And if you're married, then beobedient and follow the Lord in
your marriage.
Lay down your life for yourwife and your kids and others,
as God leads.
If you're single, follow theLord, lay down your life for him
(20:37):
and those he puts in your life.
That is the higher calling.
And you're right, we idolize our.
If we're married, we are proneto idolizing our spouses.
We're prone to idolizing thecomforts and pleasure of
marriage.
We're prone to idolizing ourkids or houses or the you know,
two cars and five bedroom houseor whatever it is.
(20:57):
Excuse me, which is, you know,idolatry is idolatry, whether it
looks quote unquote Christianon the outside or not.
Did I say anything hereticalthere?
I think?
I think I'm on target here,right?
No, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
No, I don't think you did.
I think the thing we have toacknowledge, though, like it's
not like, just because we saidthis, that you can go oh, ok, I
get it, and right, because thatdidn't happen for me, like I
didn't just, you know, hear thisinformation and some people
might be hearing it and go youknow, that's a bunch of malarkey
(21:35):
, you know, cause, like, what amI supposed to do now?
And I think we have toacknowledge like, like there is
a place of suffering, if that'sthe longing in your heart and it
has not happened.
I think there is a place forthe longing and the grief and to
(22:00):
be able to express that, not tojust push it off and say, oh
well, hey, you got this otherthing you got to look for and
it's going to be great.
That still, for a lot of people, doesn't answer the question,
but what about?
right now, and I think there ispermission to be sad.
(22:22):
Maybe there's some anger, maybethere's some anger, and can you
bring all of that before theLord and allow him then to to
(22:42):
present something else for you,to have your heart open to
receive something from him,cause as you give that longing
and pain to him, he hassomething else he wants to give
to you.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I want to ask you about that.
I want to introduce one otherthought to singles and marrieds
listening just because I'm notsure we'll find another spot for
it, so it may not fit exactlyhere I was talking about before.
When I interact with singleswho have, who have done some of
the hard work of pressingthrough whatever the pain or
(23:13):
loneliness or difficulty, oreven the spiritual work, but
also even just the relationalwork, like you know, there
there's some challenges.
I experienced that othersaround me in my church don't
seem to.
When I interact with, with menand women who have kind of gone
the deep roads that you'retalking about, kyle, one of the
things that it does for me is ithelps to illumine the reality
(23:33):
and gives me permission even topay attention to the reality
that, as much as I love my wife,as much as I love my family,
they do not satisfy me and atthe end of the day, as much joy
as there is, as muchsatisfaction as there is, there
is still an ache in me forsomething more, and so I want to
.
I hope, yeah, so, anyway.
(23:56):
So let me, let me just put it.
Put it to you as a single womanin your late thirties, however
old you are, kyle, what doesthat look like for you?
I mean, like, can you getpractical from it, say, say, you
know there's a single personlistening.
He was like man, I alwayswanted to get married.
I'm now in my late fifties andI'm not sure it's ever going to
happen for me.
I'm not sure it's ever going tohappen for me.
(24:23):
What do you mean, like, how doI press into this higher,
calling this, this, you knowthis, something else that you
guys are talking about in a waythat's actually going to help
help meet some of my needs.
So I stopped running to porn,so I stopped, um, just beating
my head against a wall and thisway or that way, like, what
would you like?
What have you done?
What do you prescribe here?
What helps you?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
One of the things that has been important for me
is what are the things thatbring me joy?
What are the things that Iengage in that bring a smile to
my face, that when I think aboutdoing them I go?
Man, I can't wait.
Whether you go to a concert,whether you have a specific
(25:08):
hobby, you like to golf or youlike to be in nature, what are
those things that bring you joythat you can be intentional
about doing?
I would say too, like you know,as early on as a younger single
, I would always wait forsomebody else to engage in
(25:32):
certain things with me, and Iwould say even in the past year
or so, the Lord has beenchallenging me about finding my
own adventure.
There are things that I can dothat I love and enjoy, and I
don't necessarily have to havesomeone with me in that and know
(25:55):
that God has given me that as agift to enjoy.
So that's one thing, but theother thing, community, is
important.
I am blessed to have some greatfriends that and I'm a person I
love like gathering with peopleand, you know, sitting around
(26:17):
and cracking jokes and makingfun and just having a good time.
I make it a point and I'mreally intentional about it.
I know that everybody is notthat way.
One of my friends actually saidI am so grateful for your
persistence.
Yeah, because I like.
Okay, you said you want to gettogether.
(26:38):
Let's do it, like, let's getthe date on the calendar, and so
some of that is even maybehaving to step out of your
comfort zone a little bit andnot wait for everybody to come
to you and say, hey, do you wantto hang out?
But if you want to hang out, ifthere's somebody you think that
might want to do that, just goask them.
And even if it means you guyshave to stop and say, okay,
(27:00):
maybe it doesn't happen in thenext two weeks, pull out your
calendar, pull out my calendar,let's put a date in and just do
it.
And I think then, what are theways that you are continuing to
(27:21):
remind yourself of who you arein Christ?
Because I don't think any ofthis works.
If you don't feel good in yourown skin Because when you
connect with people you're goingto maybe want to grasp
something from them, right, Thenyou end up.
You've got these emotionallydependent relationships, or
(27:41):
maybe these relationships switchand they turn into sexual
relationships and you're tryingto grab from them something that
you're longing for that isgoing to.
What you get from them is verytemporary.
I think it's really importantto solidify who you are in
(28:04):
Christ and remind yourself ofthat when you hear the enemy
saying you know what?
Nobody really wants to be withyou.
It was yours X, y, z and youcan go.
You know what, jesus.
I know who you say I am, and youmight even have to say it out
loud.
I know who you say I am and soI know that I am your beloved.
(28:27):
I know that you have known mefrom the foundations of this
world.
I know that I am fearfully andwonderfully made.
You might have to do that kindof thing to remind yourself.
Maybe you're visual, maybe yougot to put it up on the mirror,
on the wall, but the things thatcan help you remember who you
are, I think, help you to knowthat people find you valuable
(28:51):
and then, when you get into thepresence of others, you're not
trying to suck the life out ofthem.
You want to just enjoy them andwho they are, and they can
enjoy you and who you are.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, boy Kyle, okay, the last, however long you were
talking, like the amount ofwisdom in what you just shared
we could spend a whole otherpodcast talking about.
And I want to highlight acouple things, maybe just kind
of call them out of what yousaid, starting with spending
(29:26):
time by yourself and and takinggod's invitation to recognize
what brings you delight, whatbrings you joy, and saying yes
to those things.
And you, you, you at one pointsaid something to the effect of
God's put these desires in meand he kind of invites me into
them.
Like, and I think I think partof what's so healthy about that
(29:47):
it's learning to and Mary's needthis too.
We absolutely need this too,for some of the same reasons.
But to, to, to learn to becomfortable with yourself and to
and to honor the good of yourdesire and the good of your
experiences and the good of yourown joy, even when somebody
(30:07):
else isn't there to affirm it orshare it.
Not that that's not importantand you got into that, but the
other, the other piece of it isthere's.
I almost kind of hear the wordromance when it comes to your
relationship with God.
Let's say I love nature, or Ilove something specific in
nature.
I love finding rivers to justsit by and listening to the
(30:29):
river go by, to recognize thatthe desire I've got for that has
come from God and the river hascome from God, and the river
and my time by it is a gift fromthis God.
Now we're now we're back intothe realm of talking about the
bridegroom and his bride.
That which is imaged in earthlymarriage is now being
(30:53):
experienced in a kind of aforetaste way, as I'm
experiencing and spending timewith myself and the Lord as he
gives this gift.
In that moment, I think part ofwhy that's.
And then that translates to adifferent kind of posture.
When I spend time with peopleand the same is true in marriage
I mean, if my orbit is entirelyaround my wife or my kids and
(31:15):
if I'm looking for my wife, mykids to let me know that I'm
okay, that I'm desirable, thenI'm sucking something from them
and I'm not able to love thembecause I'm always looking for
something from them.
And when it comes to singles,like I know, for as I walk with
men and women who are single,the the the number of times I
hear somebody talk about likejust their own experiences of
rejection.
You know, I called somebody andthey said we're going to get
(31:37):
together.
But they never got back to meLike and it must be because I am
fill in the blank or I'm notfill in the blank and I heard
you say, like you know, if afriend who says you know, like
thank you for being persistentwith me, and if you were
grasping and looking for thatperson to let you know each time
you reached out that you'reworth being a friend to, because
(31:57):
they reach right back out orbecause they always initiate,
then you would have not beenable to give them the gift of
your persistence, because theywant relationship with you but,
for whatever reason, theystruggle with it.
Man.
So anyway, so much in there.
Kyle, that is really hardterrain.
I mean you kind of like waltzthrough it.
You can tell you haveexperienced it.
But like really hard it's hardit's.
(32:19):
It can be hard to motivate toget out and go spend time by
yourself and delight.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
It can be hard to like be persistent friendships
especially if you live in anarea you know we're here in the
dc maryland, virginia area,where you do, everybody has to
get together and pull out theirphones and say, okay, what's the
(32:47):
next open day on your calendar?
It's ridiculous, right, and youmay live in an area where people
are so busy and they're movingand they're hustling and they're
bustling, and it can be.
It can feel really defeating ifyou go oh my gosh, like you
don't have anything availablefor the next three months, right
, that that is hard, but I thinkalso that speaks to what does
(33:11):
it look like to even expand yourcircle, which is a risk, which
is like a risk, right, it's tobe able to see somebody that
you've maybe never seen beforeand maybe you're in a situation
where you know that might beother singles, and just to even
(33:33):
go and say hello and strike up aconversation, like that's risky
and scary in and of itself, butsometimes like how might you be
blessed by them and they beblessed by you, because maybe
they're waiting for someone tostep up and say hello and you
(33:56):
take the risk and say, hey, howare you doing?
Say hello and you take the riskand say, hey, how are you doing
?
You may have just changed thetrajectory of what they were
feeling in that moment, becauseyou took the risk.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, yeah, man, yeah , and I think all of us in
today's day and age maybe.
I know that the statisticsabout loneliness among men is
off the charts Like the.
I know that women are gettinglonely too, but the number of
men's there's some researchabout whether married or single,
(34:27):
the number of friends that menhave continued to drop as they
age.
They have fewer and fewerfriends.
They're lonely or they can belonely and lonelier.
And we are such a busy people.
Yeah, okay, kyle, last questionfor you.
Let's just kind of dive rightinto the, the, the deep waters
here.
Sexual desire what are yousupposed to do with sexual
(34:50):
desire?
As a single person?
God has given men and womensexual desire, and part of being
whole is even experiencingdesire for romance, desire for
sex, desire for touch.
What am I supposed to do?
We live in a culture that sayssex is a right and a need.
So you can't be healthy and nothave sex what do you say what
(35:16):
does scripture say, what, what,what.
What are christians supposed tohold to here?
And and maybe even practicallywhat do you say?
What does scripture say, what,what, what, what are Christians
supposed to hold to here?
And and maybe even practicallywhat do you do with sexual
desire?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I think there's a change of perspective, that that
has to happen.
First, I have talked to severaldifferent single women who I
don't know that they couldarticulate that sex actually was
created by God and that itshould point to him.
(35:46):
Paul David Tripp talks aboutwhen he was referring to sexual
pleasure and he said everypleasurable thing should point
to the one who created it.
That for a lot I think a lot ofpeople, regardless of whether
they're married or single it'sone of those things where I say
(36:07):
something like that, like, doyou understand that sex needs to
point to god?
And you get right.
Yeah, yeah, that's a buzzkill.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (36:18):
like yeah, yeah to God, and you get right.
Yeah, yeah, that's a buzzkill.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Like, yeah, go on, go on.
And so I think then you canstart to put sex in its
perspective when you realize, ohwait, this act, this is not
just about me getting my needsfulfilled, there's something
(36:43):
about this act that should imageGod, and that's the big, that's
a big jump.
And so I think, when you canwrestle through that, I think
then you can start to say, okay,well, what do I do with this?
Because it's really easy to gowell, I need to have my needs
(37:07):
met.
Or the only way that this isgoing to go away is if I do go
look at porn, if I masturbate,if I call somebody and hook up.
That's the only way this isgoing to get dealt with.
Or you might have the thing ofyou know what, I'm just going to
shut it down.
I'm going to figure out how toshut it down so that it never
(37:32):
arises again.
And when I get married, I'lljust flip the switch and turn it
back on.
And that's not a reality either.
And so when you can understandthat the act of sexual union
should always point you towardthe Lord, then you can say, okay
(37:53):
, now that I know that I canreceive that truth, I know that
I can receive that truth then,when I am in the midst of sexual
desire, there are some reallypractical things to do, like
maybe just even pause and go.
What was my day like today?
Was it a rough day?
(38:14):
Did I lose a family member?
Did something really happenhard happen on my job?
Did I have a rift with a friend?
And just even understandingthat what you might be longing
for is comfort because of thethings that have happened, or
(38:38):
maybe even over the course ofmaybe not even that day, but a
week.
Maybe you just need some sleep,maybe you might be tired and
you don't realize how tired youare and how vulnerable you are.
And then to be able to start toengage with God around that
it's like you know what, lord?
Like this week was soincredibly hard and I feel like
(39:03):
if I just had this ability toenjoy sex with someone, I can
release all of that and now I'llbe okay being able to say that
to the Lord.
Or if, in that moment, you'resaying you know what?
Like, I really want to go lookat porn.
I want to go look at porn, Iwant to masturbate.
I'm going to be good, becausethat's the only way my heart is
(39:26):
going to feel better is to beable to say that to God.
I remember I shared that withone young woman and she was like
you can't say that to God.
I was like, sure you canBecause, first and foremost,
(39:55):
sure you can Because, first andforemost, he knows already
what's in your heart and he longand you know what you might.
Maybe it means you have to walkthe floor for a little while,
right, because none of thiscomes without suffering, and I
don't care whether you're singleor married.
A lot of this comes throughsuffering and when you can allow
(40:22):
yourself to feel the pain nottry to numb it and get rid of it
, but feel it and then dialoguewith God, like this might be.
A new concept for people isthat wait, I'm having sexual
desire and I need to talk to Godand not go.
God, take it away.
Take it away.
(40:42):
Take it away, not thatconversation.
But, god, I'm feeling somethingin my body that you have created
and you have called it good,and I want to do something with
this goodness.
And I don't, but I want tohonor you.
I want to honor you, god, inthe midst of this and, lord,
show me what it means to honoryou.
(41:04):
Show me how I can take thisenergy and maybe I turn it into
worship.
Maybe God you're going todirect me to go lay down and go
to sleep or to exercise.
Go lay down and go to sleep orto exercise, or.
But the Lord doesn't want tojust leave you in this place,
(41:27):
where you are just totallyfrustrated about where you are,
and just leave you there.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, yeah, and you're.
I mean you're this is such deepwaters.
Kyle, I want to make ashameless plug here, if you're
listening, going like I stilldon't get it.
It doesn't.
It's okay, you are in good,good company and you're you.
You have been formed by becauseall of us have a culture that
does say that sex is a need andyou can't live without it, and
(41:54):
it has kind of set up a paradigmwhere we we tend to believe
it's just in the the water wedrink, even though it's not true
that sexual desire builds andbuilds and builds and the only
way that it'll ever be relievedis through acting out in some
way.
Kyle, what I hear you saying is, instead of repressing our
desire, instead of cutting itoff and instead of just giving
(42:16):
into it, you're really talkingabout opening our desire,
beginning to practice andlearning to open our desire to
the Lord and being, as you talkabout, being honest to him,
telling him what he alreadyknows.
And what strikes me about thatis that what you're referring to
is is cultivating intimacy withGod, like sexual intimacy
between a husband and wife.
(42:36):
Is includes opening your desireto your spouse when it's when
it's healthy, not viewing yourspouse as a sexual outlet to
kind of, you know, get rid ofyour desire or to satisfy your
desire.
If, if your experience of yourspouse is, is there an outlet
for your sexual desire, then youare missing something very
(42:56):
significant that, as as you putit, points to God about sex.
God does not approach us tosatisfy his desire.
He approaches us with love forour sake.
But in a healthy marriage, ahealthy marriage is just trying
to image that love of God, andso what I hear you inviting our
listeners to and me too, and youtoo can can we cultivate a kind
(43:21):
of intimacy with god where evenour distorted desires or our
desires we don't know what to dowith, our desires that are
really intense, where we can beopen, honest with him and learn
to walk with him through ourexperiences of those desires,
whether they're being met or not.
But but certainly when we areexperiencing the, as you put it,
suffering of unmet desire,which is a common human
(43:46):
experience for everybody, eventhe person who indulges all
their desires, will find, on theother end of that, intense
suffering because they have nocontrol, because they've become
an addict.
That's hard stuff and it's whyregeneration's here, it's why we
exist.
I mean in large part because itis a complex and difficult but
(44:08):
really deep, rich environment tocultivate intimacy with God.
Yeah, thanks for that, kyle.
I appreciate you not holdingpulling punches on kind of the
practical and the.
I don't want to say practicaland spiritual, as though
spiritual is not practical, butbut I think you know what I mean
by saying like the practicalkind of down to earth, I may
need to walk the floor, I meanto call a friend, I need to call
to the community and also thismore mysterious, maybe less
(44:31):
familiar terrain of of walkingwith the Lord, with, with these
very earthy physical experiencesthat we have.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, any final word for us.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Yeah, go ahead Sorry.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, I was going to say I think I would say be kind
to yourself in this.
It's easy to turn inward and go.
You know this will never work.
I'm not going to ever get to aplace where I can be healthy and
whole.
And it's easy to turn inwardbecause even you know we look
for the instant results too, andare you willing to be kind and
(45:10):
patient with yourself, to saythis is a process and there will
be a day that I can look backand realize that I'm responding
totally differently than I wouldhave three months ago and and
things don't look as dark andbleak as they did three months
(45:31):
ago.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, yeah, that's so good, so good.
Kyle, thank you.
Thanks for thanks for your lifeand your example to us, married
and singles, and thanks forbringing your experience to us
today.
Lord, thanks that you love usand that we are collectively
your bride, whether married orsingle.
Lord, that you're with us whenwe're lonely and that you have
(45:54):
given us desire and you've givenit to us because, in the end,
ultimately, lord, you desire tomeet our desire and more.
Lord, help us to lift our eyesto that day.
We pray these things in Jesus'name.
Amen.
Okay, we are back Today.
I want to start with just aquick story.
I was at a church event not toolong ago and I just happened to
be sitting next to somebody Ididn't know, a woman in her 60s,
I think, maybe early, I'm not100% sure.
We start chatting and I learnsomehow early on that she's
single.
And as an older single, I wasjust intrigued because of my
(00:22):
work here at Regen, walking withmen and women who are wrestling
with sexual brokenness issues.
It's not uncommon to be talkingto singles about their
experience with relationshipsand sexuality and those kinds of
things.
So I kind of just pressed inand started asking a couple of
questions to this woman and shesaid something in the middle of
our conversation she's healthyand content and has got good
relationships in the church.
Healthy and content and has gotgood relationships in the
(00:43):
church.
But at one point she saidsometimes Sunday mornings can be
Sunday Sunday the Sunday hourfor church that my hour at
church can be the loneliest hourof my week.
And I just felt like, oh mygosh, it just kind of stabbed me
because I thought this, itought not be that way.
There is, there is.
There are unique kinds ofloneliness for singles, but it
(01:06):
ought not be that way in church,and we know that many of you
listening are married or are invarious places in your own
relationship.
Some of you are struggling inyour marriage, some of you have
happy marriages and some of youare single.
But what we're going to talkabout today Kyle and I are going
to talk about today, isimportant for everybody in the
church.
We're going to get into meat.
That's really really importantif you want to live a
(01:28):
relationally and sexually wholelife, whether you're single or
married.
But we're going to talk aboutsingleness today.
So Kyle Bowman is the directorof our coaches at Regen.
You've met her before, ifyou've been listening to this
podcast at all.
Kyle, welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I'm so glad to be joining you, Josh all Kyle,
welcome back.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
I'm so glad to be joining you, josh Kyle, as we
dig into this topic today justfor context.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Why am I talking to you about singleness?
Well, part of that is because Iam single.
I'm a single, never marriedperson.
And I'm not the youngest singleperson, I'm a little bit on the
mature side.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You're 34, 35 now.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
God bless you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Notice, if you're listening.
She didn't say like no, I'm notthat, I'm this.
She just kept that kind ofquiet.
Anyway, go ahead.
Sorry, I don't mean to.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
No, but yeah, I think it is not talked about enough.
Just singleness is not talkedabout enough outside of oh, how
do you prepare yourself formarriage?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Not.
How do you prepare yourself fora life that might not include
marriage, a life that might notinclude marriage, and what does
that look like?
And how to encourage peoplemaybe who already had that sense
that they're not called tomarriage.
And so how do you talk to thosefolks and help them to know
(03:00):
that, like they're not standingon the fringes of life, standing
on the fringes of life, thatGod has a very wonderful life
and purpose for them in theirsingleness, and they don't have
to be like in this holdingpattern or this waiting pattern
of oh then when I get married, Iwill be fill in the blank, so
(03:21):
then when I get married, I willbe fill in the blank.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not like you know, I like
that word.
Holding pattern, likesingleness, doesn't just have to
be for some people.
It is Some people, not aholding pattern.
I don't think it should ever bea holding pattern, but for some
people it is a it's an interimseason of life.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
A season of life.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Yes, some people.
It's an unwanted prolongedseason of life.
Some people have been marriedand find themselves single again
, either because of the death ofa spouse or divorce.
So there's lots of reasons thatpeople find themselves single.
And I think what you're gettingafter in some ways is we want
to kind of blow up or just kindof really pull down this false
(04:03):
idea that singleness is just aholding pattern.
It's just kind of like asomething that's you're not like
.
The people are not supposed tobe single, at least not for long
, and if they are, something'swrong.
The other thing we're going toget after in this podcast a bit
is especially in this culture,because if you're, if you're not
a Christian, you're notfollowing Jesus.
(04:24):
If you're not adhering to whatscripture teaches about sex and
sexuality and you're single,then go ahead and have sex with
as many people as you want.
Might be your way to addressloneliness, address sexual
desire, those kinds of things.
We don't condone that.
We're saying non-Christiansmight not have a problem with
that, but for Christians, wedon't condone that.
(04:44):
We're saying non-Christiansmight not have a problem with
that, but for Christians, fordevout men and women who find
themselves single and who arewrestling with sexual desires or
just simply feeling sexualdesire, which is a very normal,
god-given experience.
What are they supposed to dowith that?
And I think that's anotherplace where churches and
Christianity hasn't done a greatjob of talking about like, yeah
(05:05):
, what are people supposed to dothat?
I think that's where we oftenhear, you know that really bad
advice about what people aresupposed to do.
So we'll get into that a littlebit later.
Kyle, maybe begin just on aheart level.
What's?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
your experience been like as a Christian woman in
various church settings notnecessarily certainly in your
church, but just in Christiancircles around that you show up
to, somebody asks the questionoh, so you see anybody?
Oh, you're getting married.
Oh, you know that thing.
I've been blessed not to havebeen approached in that way.
(05:59):
However, I definitely have beenaround those who have, and you
know sometimes they dread goinghome for the Christmas holiday
or Thanksgiving because peopleare going oh you didn't bring
anybody with you.
Oh, are you seeing anybody?
Oh, and they're.
(06:23):
You know constantly having toaddress that in some of the
circles they're in.
But the thing that I found islike typically all the single
folks kind of hung together.
There wasn't like there wasn'tlike this mixture of, oh, I hang
out with the married people andI hang out with the single
people you know, and thechurches I've been like we have
(06:46):
all kind of stayed together andhave had like long-term
friendships, like even if peoplewent off to a different church
or moved away, we still stayedin contact.
Like you know, we kept thatgroup chat text going with us
together, and so that's more ofthe experience that I've had is
(07:07):
just that you had this kind ofgroup of singles that you hung
with and those are the peoplethat you ended up spending more
time hanging out with and doingthings with.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, if you were to think about kind of like on a
monthly basis, like the peoplethat you connect with in a
meaningful way, outside of work,outside of, maybe, a church
service, what would you say?
How many of those for you aresingle versus married?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
the 95 of them are single okay, yeah, I would say
that for some reason, likewhether it's divorce, whether
it's widowed, but but 94 ornever married, like 95% of them
are single.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, and I would say that's probably the same for me
with marrieds.
Like the 95% of people I hangout with or I would see in a
meaningful way are maybe alittle little less than that are
, but most of them are married.
Little less than that are, butmost of them are married.
They've got one one dear friendwho is is never been married
and we we connect about once amonth and that's a meaningful
(08:10):
but yeah, it's interesting.
I wonder.
I mean I'm kind of outing us ina way but like cause?
I guess?
In some ways I'm like I thinkpart of what we're advocating in
this podcast is it shouldn't bethis way, but like why?
I mean let's take should out ofit for a minute.
Like why is that?
Why is that for you?
Like, would it?
And then I'll kind of sharewhat that's like for me.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Maybe it's just because of life circumstances
dependent upon, like, what yourage bracket is.
You know, maybe most people are, they have small children or
they have children, and thereare a lot.
There's a lot of focus onhaving to do things with their
family.
Oh, the kids have this, or, youknow, my husband has this or my
(08:55):
family is going to do this.
So there's, you know, there'srightly so there's a focus on
family and it's interesting,like the my best friend is
married.
They don't have any childrenand so there's a lot more
interaction with the two of us.
(09:15):
I, I get invited to their homeall the time.
They're they're not these otheroutside things that they have
to attend to in terms of justthe core of their family, so I
can spend a lot of time therewith them and get invited.
There have been a couple ofmarried people at my church who
(09:37):
were like you know, I reallywant to have you over for dinner
, me and my wife, we want tohave you over, and some of those
things just did not come tofruition, but I've been
approached a couple of timeslike that.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think life circumstances somuch of the burden, the weight,
the challenges that I experienceday to day, that I look for
support in dealing with, areabout being a husband or being a
father.
So in some ways that makessense to me, although I will say
also maybe we'll get into thisa little bit later but the value
(10:16):
of hearing and being influencedby single brothers and sisters
in the Lord and maybe for me,especially singles who have been
single for a long time theyhave a wisdom about some things
and perspective about somethings I do not get from married
(10:36):
brothers and sisters.
And yeah, so we'll come back tothat, I think, a little bit
later, because I do think thatthere's.
You know that if there aredifferent parts of the body and
the eye can't say to the hand, Ihave no need of you.
I think that that's probably animportant admonition for
marrieds and singles in relationto each other in the church
that we should be wary of ofanything that says like you know
(10:57):
, I'm good, I'm good at just myown kind, kyle, you, you, you.
You made a comment as we wereprepping for this and I just
want you to speak to and there'sa little bit of a gear shift
here, but you were talking aboutwholeness and I think some of
it comes from your experience asa coach here at region and
working with people here.
There's almost a sense amongsome people that I need to get
(11:18):
after the broken parts of mylife, become whole so that I can
become married, and you were.
You were kind of challengingthat like what's, what's your
experience with that Ben and and?
And what would you say tolisteners who kind of feel that
way Like yeah, I want to.
Yeah, I mean, what's on your,your heart with that?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, I.
I think, as you know several ofthe women that I've talked to
over the years of being a coach,there is this longing that you
know they understand.
Okay, I had this thing.
I have to get after it so thatI can be the wife that I need to
(11:56):
be.
I can, you know, I'm healthyenough to get into a
relationship, into arelationship, and they don't
think about wait, like how aboutshifting that perspective and
allowing your drive toward thatto actually be?
I want to be whole because Iwant to be the person that God
(12:19):
has called me to be right, andnot just so that I am, you know,
this person.
That's just a.
Now I'm more available formarriage Because I think part of
what can happen is you can stepinto a relationship and think,
(12:41):
well, because I'm whole,everything's going to be okay,
relationships will be great andfine, I won't have any issues
because I'll be healthy and notunderstanding weight, like life
is a sanctifying, asanctification process that
there's always going to be stuffthat the Lord reveals and shows
you whether you're in arelationship or not, and so
(13:04):
really kind of helping peoplehave a heart shift to say, wait,
like no matter what, I want tobe whole, no matter what,
because it's what God desiresfor me.
And and I think even, andsometimes even, when it's not
necessarily a tie tied tomarriage, not necessarily tied
(13:30):
to marriage, but like, oh, whenI'm whole I'll be a more, I'll
be a better worship leader, Ican serve, be a better servant
in the church, I can serve nowin the church, I I I'll have
this sort of like carte blanchething to do all this stuff
because I will have gotten ridof this thing and I won't have
any more issues to deal with soI can engage more in things in
(13:53):
life.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
I think it's interesting on the because on
the one hand there's there'struth to it, like I'm grateful
that I went through that.
I got some therapy goodChristian therapy and then I got
involved in a regen groupbefore I got married.
Like man, I saved myself somuch heartache and trouble in
marriage because porn did nothave a hold on me and some of
(14:16):
the other sexual sins that I wasengaging in were a thing of the
past by the time I got married.
Like it helped.
But I think part of what you'regetting after with that is that
that we, we can almost holdhealth and wholeness as a a
bartering chip with the Lord forthe next thing, and I think
what it exposes is is ouridolatry of whatever that next
(14:38):
thing is, like you know, being aworship leader, being a pastor,
being a husband, being a wifeand I.
I think what we miss when wehave kind of uphold like hold
that up, as this is where I'mgoing to find value and so I
need to, I need to get better soI can have be valuable in this
way.
We miss that and correct me ifI'm wrong, but I think what I'm
hearing you say is that we misshow much God values us right now
(15:02):
that his desire for our healing, his desire for our freedom,
his desire for our wholeness isbecause we are so valuable to
him here now Like it's not sothat we can become more valuable
later.
It is that God's sanctifying us.
He's working these things outin your life, wants to you to
(15:23):
get after these things becauseyou're his treasure and it's
you're not going to become morehis treasure when you are quote
unquote marriage material orpastor material or leader
material.
Those things are just add-onsto sharing life and ministry
with him.
They're not badges you wear ormarkers of your value.
(15:43):
Is that?
Am I connecting to some dotsthere?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, and some of it is unlearning some of what
you've heard in church.
So often, marriage is held upas the gold standard, if you
will.
This is the thing that everyperson needs to strive for,
(16:10):
which is very sad to think thatBecause, again, like, if there
is an individual who is just notcalled to marriage, they know
that God has set them apart forsomething else.
What does that do for a personwho is there or a person who,
(16:33):
where they are, they're like I'mnot really ready for that.
I don't think I'm ready forthat, and so why should I try to
pursue something that I'm notready for, which is
heartbreaking to think that I'vegot to.
Yeah, I think that this is whatI got to do, and then I think
(16:55):
that that can be what happens.
Then you go.
Well, I guess, if I got to dothis, you know you get yourself
into a relationship that istotally not healthy.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, so let me push you a little bit here.
Let me just ask this question,like to the listeners who are,
whether married or single,listening going like wait, what
are you talking about?
Like, what could be a highercalling than than than marriage
and family?
What would you say to that?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I would say that takes such a big brain shift to
think.
I don't think we think aboutthe fact that we are the bride
of Christ.
I don't think that's.
I know.
For me that wasn't a thing, andso it's thinking wait, there is
a marriage that's going tohappen that's so much bigger and
(17:43):
better than what will beexperienced on earth.
And am I okay with being ableto maybe I do have to sit in the
pain a little bit of what itmeans to not have that longing
(18:05):
met but anticipate that there isthis wedding feast that's going
to take place that will putearthly marriage to shame, and
not to say that as a way ofknocking earthly marriage, but
that even people who are marriedhave to understand that this is
(18:30):
not the end, all to be all,because then what happens is you
end up idolizing your spouse,and what God longs for is for us
to really want what is coming.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, that's so good.
Okay, I gotta riff here alittle bit with you here,
because, on like for christians,for the christian church to
find themselves upholdingmarriage and family as the
ultimate calling, like this isthe like.
What could be more important isto miss so much of the reality
(19:11):
of scripture.
Our savior did not marry on theearth.
He is the bridegroom and therewill be a wedding one day, a
spiritual union, not a sexualunion.
A spiritual union between thebridegroom, christ, and his
bride, the church.
We follow him, we are followersof him.
So why would we think thatevery single person who's
(19:32):
following him would have to bemarried on the earth?
The primary author of the NewTestament, paul, who's got more
letters in the New Testamentthan anybody else, did not marry
and said in Romans said I'msorry.
First Corinthians seven said Iwish that you would be like me
and remain single, because ifyou're married, you got to busy
yourself with you know,concerning about your wife and
(19:53):
your kids, but, like, if you'resingle, you can devote yourself
just to the Lord.
He didn't, it wasn't a command,it's not.
He wasn't trying to flip theyou know the script and say you
know the not you know.
Now the highest calling is tobe single.
But I think I think throughthrough both of of of the
example of Christ, the exampleof Paul, the example of so many
(20:15):
saints through the ages, werecognize that there there
actually is a higher callingthan marriage and children, and
it is obedience, following theLord.
And if you're married, then beobedient and follow the Lord in
your marriage.
Lay down your life for yourwife and your kids and others,
as God leads.
If you're single, follow theLord, lay down your life for him
(20:37):
and those he puts in your life.
That is the higher calling.
And you're right, we idolize our.
If we're married, we are proneto idolizing our spouses.
We're prone to idolizing thecomforts and pleasure of
marriage.
We're prone to idolizing ourkids or houses or the you know,
two cars and five bedroom houseor whatever it is.
(20:57):
Excuse me, which is, you know,idolatry is idolatry, whether it
looks quote unquote Christianon the outside or not.
Did I say anything hereticalthere?
I think?
I think I'm on target here,right?
No, yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
No, I don't think you did.
I think the thing we have toacknowledge, though, like it's
not like, just because we saidthis, that you can go oh, ok, I
get it, and right, because thatdidn't happen for me, like I
didn't just, you know, hear thisinformation and some people
might be hearing it and go youknow, that's a bunch of malarkey
(21:35):
, you know, cause, like, what amI supposed to do now?
And I think we have toacknowledge like, like there is
a place of suffering, if that'sthe longing in your heart and it
has not happened.
I think there is a place forthe longing and the grief and to
(22:00):
be able to express that, not tojust push it off and say, oh
well, hey, you got this otherthing you got to look for and
it's going to be great.
That still, for a lot of people, doesn't answer the question,
but what about?
right now, and I think there ispermission to be sad.
(22:22):
Maybe there's some anger, maybethere's some anger, and can you
bring all of that before theLord and allow him then to to
(22:42):
present something else for you,to have your heart open to
receive something from him,cause as you give that longing
and pain to him, he hassomething else he wants to give
to you.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
I want to ask you about that.
I want to introduce one otherthought to singles and marrieds
listening just because I'm notsure we'll find another spot for
it, so it may not fit exactlyhere I was talking about before.
When I interact with singleswho have, who have done some of
the hard work of pressingthrough whatever the pain or
(23:13):
loneliness or difficulty, oreven the spiritual work, but
also even just the relationalwork, like you know, there
there's some challenges.
I experienced that othersaround me in my church don't
seem to.
When I interact with, with menand women who have kind of gone
the deep roads that you'retalking about, kyle, one of the
things that it does for me is ithelps to illumine the reality
(23:33):
and gives me permission even topay attention to the reality
that, as much as I love my wife,as much as I love my family,
they do not satisfy me and atthe end of the day, as much joy
as there is, as muchsatisfaction as there is, there
is still an ache in me forsomething more, and so I want to
.
I hope, yeah, so, anyway.
(23:56):
So let me, let me just put it.
Put it to you as a single womanin your late thirties, however
old you are, kyle, what doesthat look like for you?
I mean, like, can you getpractical from it, say, say, you
know there's a single personlistening.
He was like man, I alwayswanted to get married.
I'm now in my late fifties andI'm not sure it's ever going to
happen for me.
I'm not sure it's ever going tohappen for me.
(24:23):
What do you mean, like, how doI press into this higher,
calling this, this, you knowthis, something else that you
guys are talking about in a waythat's actually going to help
help meet some of my needs.
So I stopped running to porn,so I stopped, um, just beating
my head against a wall and thisway or that way, like, what
would you like?
What have you done?
What do you prescribe here?
What helps you?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
One of the things that has been important for me
is what are the things thatbring me joy?
What are the things that Iengage in that bring a smile to
my face, that when I think aboutdoing them I go?
Man, I can't wait.
Whether you go to a concert,whether you have a specific
(25:08):
hobby, you like to golf or youlike to be in nature, what are
those things that bring you joythat you can be intentional
about doing?
I would say too, like you know,as early on as a younger single
, I would always wait forsomebody else to engage in
(25:32):
certain things with me, and Iwould say even in the past year
or so, the Lord has beenchallenging me about finding my
own adventure.
There are things that I can dothat I love and enjoy, and I
don't necessarily have to havesomeone with me in that and know
(25:55):
that God has given me that as agift to enjoy.
So that's one thing, but theother thing, community, is
important.
I am blessed to have some greatfriends that and I'm a person I
love like gathering with peopleand, you know, sitting around
(26:17):
and cracking jokes and makingfun and just having a good time.
I make it a point and I'mreally intentional about it.
I know that everybody is notthat way.
One of my friends actually saidI am so grateful for your
persistence.
Yeah, because I like.
Okay, you said you want to gettogether.
(26:38):
Let's do it, like, let's getthe date on the calendar, and so
some of that is even maybehaving to step out of your
comfort zone a little bit andnot wait for everybody to come
to you and say, hey, do you wantto hang out?
But if you want to hang out, ifthere's somebody you think that
might want to do that, just goask them.
And even if it means you guyshave to stop and say, okay,
(27:00):
maybe it doesn't happen in thenext two weeks, pull out your
calendar, pull out my calendar,let's put a date in and just do
it.
And I think then, what are theways that you are continuing to
(27:21):
remind yourself of who you arein Christ?
Because I don't think any ofthis works.
If you don't feel good in yourown skin Because when you
connect with people you're goingto maybe want to grasp
something from them, right, Thenyou end up.
You've got these emotionallydependent relationships, or
(27:41):
maybe these relationships switchand they turn into sexual
relationships and you're tryingto grab from them something that
you're longing for that isgoing to.
What you get from them is verytemporary.
I think it's really importantto solidify who you are in
(28:04):
Christ and remind yourself ofthat when you hear the enemy
saying you know what?
Nobody really wants to be withyou.
It was yours X, y, z and youcan go.
You know what, jesus.
I know who you say I am, and youmight even have to say it out
loud.
I know who you say I am and soI know that I am your beloved.
(28:27):
I know that you have known mefrom the foundations of this
world.
I know that I am fearfully andwonderfully made.
You might have to do that kindof thing to remind yourself.
Maybe you're visual, maybe yougot to put it up on the mirror,
on the wall, but the things thatcan help you remember who you
are, I think, help you to knowthat people find you valuable
(28:51):
and then, when you get into thepresence of others, you're not
trying to suck the life out ofthem.
You want to just enjoy them andwho they are, and they can
enjoy you and who you are.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, boy Kyle, okay, the last, however long you were
talking, like the amount ofwisdom in what you just shared
we could spend a whole otherpodcast talking about.
And I want to highlight acouple things, maybe just kind
of call them out of what yousaid, starting with spending
(29:26):
time by yourself and and takinggod's invitation to recognize
what brings you delight, whatbrings you joy, and saying yes
to those things.
And you, you, you at one pointsaid something to the effect of
God's put these desires in meand he kind of invites me into
them.
Like, and I think I think partof what's so healthy about that
(29:47):
it's learning to and Mary's needthis too.
We absolutely need this too,for some of the same reasons.
But to, to, to learn to becomfortable with yourself and to
and to honor the good of yourdesire and the good of your
experiences and the good of yourown joy, even when somebody
(30:07):
else isn't there to affirm it orshare it.
Not that that's not importantand you got into that, but the
other, the other piece of it isthere's.
I almost kind of hear the wordromance when it comes to your
relationship with God.
Let's say I love nature, or Ilove something specific in
nature.
I love finding rivers to justsit by and listening to the
(30:29):
river go by, to recognize thatthe desire I've got for that has
come from God and the river hascome from God, and the river
and my time by it is a gift fromthis God.
Now we're now we're back intothe realm of talking about the
bridegroom and his bride.
That which is imaged in earthlymarriage is now being
(30:53):
experienced in a kind of aforetaste way, as I'm
experiencing and spending timewith myself and the Lord as he
gives this gift.
In that moment, I think part ofwhy that's.
And then that translates to adifferent kind of posture.
When I spend time with peopleand the same is true in marriage
I mean, if my orbit is entirelyaround my wife or my kids and
(31:15):
if I'm looking for my wife, mykids to let me know that I'm
okay, that I'm desirable, thenI'm sucking something from them
and I'm not able to love thembecause I'm always looking for
something from them.
And when it comes to singles,like I know, for as I walk with
men and women who are single,the the the number of times I
hear somebody talk about likejust their own experiences of
rejection.
You know, I called somebody andthey said we're going to get
(31:37):
together.
But they never got back to meLike and it must be because I am
fill in the blank or I'm notfill in the blank and I heard
you say, like you know, if afriend who says you know, like
thank you for being persistentwith me, and if you were
grasping and looking for thatperson to let you know each time
you reached out that you'reworth being a friend to, because
(31:57):
they reach right back out orbecause they always initiate,
then you would have not beenable to give them the gift of
your persistence, because theywant relationship with you but,
for whatever reason, theystruggle with it.
Man.
So anyway, so much in there.
Kyle, that is really hardterrain.
I mean you kind of like waltzthrough it.
You can tell you haveexperienced it.
But like really hard it's hardit's.
(32:19):
It can be hard to motivate toget out and go spend time by
yourself and delight.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
It can be hard to like be persistent friendships
especially if you live in anarea you know we're here in the
dc maryland, virginia area,where you do, everybody has to
get together and pull out theirphones and say, okay, what's the
(32:47):
next open day on your calendar?
It's ridiculous, right, and youmay live in an area where people
are so busy and they're movingand they're hustling and they're
bustling, and it can be.
It can feel really defeating ifyou go oh my gosh, like you
don't have anything availablefor the next three months, right
, that that is hard, but I thinkalso that speaks to what does
(33:11):
it look like to even expand yourcircle, which is a risk, which
is like a risk, right, it's tobe able to see somebody that
you've maybe never seen beforeand maybe you're in a situation
where you know that might beother singles, and just to even
(33:33):
go and say hello and strike up aconversation, like that's risky
and scary in and of itself, butsometimes like how might you be
blessed by them and they beblessed by you, because maybe
they're waiting for someone tostep up and say hello and you
(33:56):
take the risk and say, hey, howare you doing?
Say hello and you take the riskand say, hey, how are you doing
?
You may have just changed thetrajectory of what they were
feeling in that moment, becauseyou took the risk.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
Yeah, yeah, man, yeah , and I think all of us in
today's day and age maybe.
I know that the statisticsabout loneliness among men is
off the charts Like the.
I know that women are gettinglonely too, but the number of
men's there's some researchabout whether married or single,
(34:27):
the number of friends that menhave continued to drop as they
age.
They have fewer and fewerfriends.
They're lonely or they can belonely and lonelier.
And we are such a busy people.
Yeah, okay, kyle, last questionfor you.
Let's just kind of dive rightinto the, the, the deep waters
here.
Sexual desire what are yousupposed to do with sexual
(34:50):
desire?
As a single person?
God has given men and womensexual desire, and part of being
whole is even experiencingdesire for romance, desire for
sex, desire for touch.
What am I supposed to do?
We live in a culture that sayssex is a right and a need.
So you can't be healthy and nothave sex what do you say what
(35:16):
does scripture say, what, what,what.
What are christians supposed tohold to here?
And and maybe even practicallywhat do you say?
What does scripture say, what,what, what, what are Christians
supposed to hold to here?
And and maybe even practicallywhat do you do with sexual
desire?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I think there's a change of perspective, that that
has to happen.
First, I have talked to severaldifferent single women who I
don't know that they couldarticulate that sex actually was
created by God and that itshould point to him.
(35:46):
Paul David Tripp talks aboutwhen he was referring to sexual
pleasure and he said everypleasurable thing should point
to the one who created it.
That for a lot I think a lot ofpeople, regardless of whether
they're married or single it'sone of those things where I say
(36:07):
something like that, like, doyou understand that sex needs to
point to god?
And you get right.
Yeah, yeah, that's a buzzkill.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (36:18):
like yeah, yeah to God, and you get right.
Yeah, yeah, that's a buzzkill.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Like, yeah, go on, go on.
And so I think then you canstart to put sex in its
perspective when you realize, ohwait, this act, this is not
just about me getting my needsfulfilled, there's something
(36:43):
about this act that should imageGod, and that's the big, that's
a big jump.
And so I think, when you canwrestle through that, I think
then you can start to say, okay,well, what do I do with this?
Because it's really easy to gowell, I need to have my needs
(37:07):
met.
Or the only way that this isgoing to go away is if I do go
look at porn, if I masturbate,if I call somebody and hook up.
That's the only way this isgoing to get dealt with.
Or you might have the thing ofyou know what, I'm just going to
shut it down.
I'm going to figure out how toshut it down so that it never
(37:32):
arises again.
And when I get married, I'lljust flip the switch and turn it
back on.
And that's not a reality either.
And so when you can understandthat the act of sexual union
should always point you towardthe Lord, then you can say, okay
(37:53):
, now that I know that I canreceive that truth, I know that
I can receive that truth then,when I am in the midst of sexual
desire, there are some reallypractical things to do, like
maybe just even pause and go.
What was my day like today?
Was it a rough day?
(38:14):
Did I lose a family member?
Did something really happenhard happen on my job?
Did I have a rift with a friend?
And just even understandingthat what you might be longing
for is comfort because of thethings that have happened, or
(38:38):
maybe even over the course ofmaybe not even that day, but a
week.
Maybe you just need some sleep,maybe you might be tired and
you don't realize how tired youare and how vulnerable you are.
And then to be able to start toengage with God around that
it's like you know what, lord?
Like this week was soincredibly hard and I feel like
(39:03):
if I just had this ability toenjoy sex with someone, I can
release all of that and now I'llbe okay being able to say that
to the Lord.
Or if, in that moment, you'resaying you know what?
Like, I really want to go lookat porn.
I want to go look at porn, Iwant to masturbate.
I'm going to be good, becausethat's the only way my heart is
(39:26):
going to feel better is to beable to say that to God.
I remember I shared that withone young woman and she was like
you can't say that to God.
I was like, sure you canBecause, first and foremost,
(39:55):
sure you can Because, first andforemost, he knows already
what's in your heart and he longand you know what you might.
Maybe it means you have to walkthe floor for a little while,
right, because none of thiscomes without suffering, and I
don't care whether you're singleor married.
A lot of this comes throughsuffering and when you can allow
(40:22):
yourself to feel the pain nottry to numb it and get rid of it
, but feel it and then dialoguewith God, like this might be.
A new concept for people isthat wait, I'm having sexual
desire and I need to talk to Godand not go.
God, take it away.
Take it away.
(40:42):
Take it away, not thatconversation.
But, god, I'm feeling somethingin my body that you have created
and you have called it good,and I want to do something with
this goodness.
And I don't, but I want tohonor you.
I want to honor you, god, inthe midst of this and, lord,
show me what it means to honoryou.
(41:04):
Show me how I can take thisenergy and maybe I turn it into
worship.
Maybe God you're going todirect me to go lay down and go
to sleep or to exercise.
Go lay down and go to sleep orto exercise, or.
But the Lord doesn't want tojust leave you in this place,
(41:27):
where you are just totallyfrustrated about where you are,
and just leave you there.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, yeah, and you're.
I mean you're this is such deepwaters.
Kyle, I want to make ashameless plug here, if you're
listening, going like I stilldon't get it.
It doesn't.
It's okay, you are in good,good company and you're you.
You have been formed by becauseall of us have a culture that
does say that sex is a need andyou can't live without it, and
(41:54):
it has kind of set up a paradigmwhere we we tend to believe
it's just in the the water wedrink, even though it's not true
that sexual desire builds andbuilds and builds and the only
way that it'll ever be relievedis through acting out in some
way.
Kyle, what I hear you saying is, instead of repressing our
desire, instead of cutting itoff and instead of just giving
(42:16):
into it, you're really talkingabout opening our desire,
beginning to practice andlearning to open our desire to
the Lord and being, as you talkabout, being honest to him,
telling him what he alreadyknows.
And what strikes me about thatis that what you're referring to
is is cultivating intimacy withGod, like sexual intimacy
between a husband and wife.
(42:36):
Is includes opening your desireto your spouse when it's when
it's healthy, not viewing yourspouse as a sexual outlet to
kind of, you know, get rid ofyour desire or to satisfy your
desire.
If, if your experience of yourspouse is, is there an outlet
for your sexual desire, then youare missing something very
(42:56):
significant that, as as you putit, points to God about sex.
God does not approach us tosatisfy his desire.
He approaches us with love forour sake.
But in a healthy marriage, ahealthy marriage is just trying
to image that love of God, andso what I hear you inviting our
listeners to and me too, and youtoo can can we cultivate a kind
(43:21):
of intimacy with god where evenour distorted desires or our
desires we don't know what to dowith, our desires that are
really intense, where we can beopen, honest with him and learn
to walk with him through ourexperiences of those desires,
whether they're being met or not.
But but certainly when we areexperiencing the, as you put it,
suffering of unmet desire,which is a common human
(43:46):
experience for everybody, eventhe person who indulges all
their desires, will find, on theother end of that, intense
suffering because they have nocontrol, because they've become
an addict.
That's hard stuff and it's whyregeneration's here, it's why we
exist.
I mean in large part because itis a complex and difficult but
(44:08):
really deep, rich environment tocultivate intimacy with God.
Yeah, thanks for that, kyle.
I appreciate you not holdingpulling punches on kind of the
practical and the.
I don't want to say practicaland spiritual, as though
spiritual is not practical, butbut I think you know what I mean
by saying like the practicalkind of down to earth, I may
need to walk the floor, I meanto call a friend, I need to call
to the community and also thismore mysterious, maybe less
(44:31):
familiar terrain of of walkingwith the Lord, with, with these
very earthy physical experiencesthat we have.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yeah, any final word for us.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Yeah, go ahead Sorry.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, I was going to say I think I would say be kind
to yourself in this.
It's easy to turn inward and go.
You know this will never work.
I'm not going to ever get to aplace where I can be healthy and
whole.
And it's easy to turn inwardbecause even you know we look
for the instant results too, andare you willing to be kind and
(45:10):
patient with yourself, to saythis is a process and there will
be a day that I can look backand realize that I'm responding
totally differently than I wouldhave three months ago and and
things don't look as dark andbleak as they did three months
(45:31):
ago.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, yeah, that's so good, so good.
Kyle, thank you.
Thanks for thanks for your lifeand your example to us, married
and singles, and thanks forbringing your experience to us
today.
Lord, thanks that you love usand that we are collectively
your bride, whether married orsingle.
Lord, that you're with us whenwe're lonely and that you have
(45:54):
given us desire and you've givenit to us because, in the end,
ultimately, lord, you desire tomeet our desire and more.
Lord, help us to lift our eyesto that day.
We pray these things in Jesus'name.
Amen.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.