April 15, 2025 • 40 mins
Imagine driving past a house that looks a bit off, maybe the porch is sagging, or the house seems to lean. That’s what happens when a foundation is compromised, and you know, relationships can face the same troubles, especially after betrayal. Today's podcast talks about how full therapeutic disclosure can be a game-changer for couples dealing with betrayal. It’s like laying down a solid truth foundation. It’s not just about spilling the beans; it’s about sharing everything in a safe, guided space. While the disclosing partner might feel a sigh of relief, the betrayed partner gets the information needed to begin healing. It's quite a journey, holding each other's hearts gently and stepping into healing with honesty and care. It often leads to a relationship full of renewed trust and intimacy, stronger than before. If you or someone you know is walking this path, there’s hope and help out there to rebuild that foundation.
Intimacy Pyramid from Dan Drake and Raabsmiths
- Full Therapeutic Disclosure Links
Books for couples
- Disclosing Spouse
- Betrayed Spouse (Three Volumes)
- https://disclosurehope.com/
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Have you ever been on a drive and noticed a house
where something just looked off?
I mean, maybe the porch wascrooked or sagging, or maybe it
looked like the house wasleaning even or sinking into the
ground.
This is probably due to acompromise in the building's
(00:22):
foundation.
To a compromise in thebuilding's foundation, something
happened that has caused thatoriginal design and function of
that structure to no longer beable to stand as it was designed
.
And, friends, this can happenin relationships as well,
(00:44):
especially when there is someform of betrayal.
On today's podcast, we're goingto discuss the full therapeutic
disclosure and why it may bebeneficial for couples who have
experienced betrayal.
Experienced betrayal.
(01:08):
My name is Aaron Taggart and Iam one of our men's spiritual
coaches here at Regen, and I amjoined today by my amazing
colleague, anne Donahue.
Anne is one of our women'sspiritual coaches at
Regeneration and she leads ourwives groups for betrayed
partners, and I've had theprivilege of working alongside
Anne as we walk with couplesthrough the full therapeutic
(01:31):
disclosure process.
Anne, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you.
I'm so glad that I'm here and Ihave really appreciated being
able to work with you, aaron, onfull therapeutic disclosures,
and I am ready to dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, me too.
It has been great working withyou and working with couples and
just seeing what God can dothrough a process, a hard
process, Because his heart isfor relationship and covenant
and healing, and this processreally gives couples a chance at
(02:12):
that.
And so, yeah, let's dive in alittle bit to just kind of what
is.
I know some of our listenersmight be thinking what in the
world is a full therapeuticdisclosure and why would a
couple ever consider doing one?
So let's just start there.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, that's right.
Why in the world would I gothrough a process like this, go
through a process like this?
And I would say I you know froma more formal, like technical
(02:56):
process.
It's, it's the right of truth,it's it's a one space to hear a
protected, to be protected andbring, bring the truth, laying
the foundation of truth for acouple, but in a really safe
setting.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It does lay some reallyimportant groundwork for the
rest of that relationship toreally flourish.
That foundation of truth has tobe really solid.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, and I love the word.
Don't be scared by the wordtherapeutic.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You know, full, we'll get to full.
But therapeutic right Is justsafe.
Both husband and wife areprotected and supported and
guided through thistruth-telling process.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, that's so good, anne.
I think that's such a goodthing really.
Just to emphasize yeah, thisisn't a therapist's office per
se type, just like.
I think when people heartherapy, they're like, oh my
gosh, what am I getting into?
And I think you've framed thatso well, because it really is
about holding both thedisclosing partner and the
(04:21):
betrayed partner through aprocess where they are cared for
, encouraged and with people whohave been trained you and I
have been trained.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And there are a lot of benefits and fruit that come
from this process.
But it begins really by holdingthis couple up and I picture
kind of like Aaron and herholding up Moses so Moses can do
the really hard work.
And it's like you and I arekind of, and other clinicians
(04:54):
and coaches and guides out therewho do this work are really
helping to hold that couple asthey walk through something so
delicate and hard for theirrelationship.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I mean just that picture, aaron, of being held up
, because when there's betrayal,the wife is laid flat.
Right, she's discoveredsomething on her husband's phone
.
Her husband disclosed somethinglate at night.
(05:28):
Like I have been, I've beenhurting you and I've been lying
so flat out two people laid flatout, and somehow the truth has
to be able to be shared.
And then the couple needssupport to help stand up.
(05:55):
And that's the disclosingprocess, right, it's typically
gone very poorly, right, notanybody's fault, but just those
original, those not original,but those first days, those
first minutes of, you know, adeception being discovered or
(06:16):
something being disclosedhappens late at night and nobody
(06:37):
is in the right frame of mindor space to hear the truth or
give the truth.
And those first go at it don'tgo well, and we've been couples.
Stop the destruction, stop thedrip disclosure and try to get
support and help for couples,you know, at the worst hour of
(07:01):
their lives at the worst hour oftheir lives.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you were mentioning kind of the
trips and drabs or sort ofthese kind of scattered
disclosures like differentevents or different things that
are disclosed over time, insteadof in this process.
Everything's kind of laid out inone process and we'll get into
that in a minute.
But I think a real benefit ofdoing that way, especially for
(07:29):
the betrayed partner, is thatyou know, if you imagine if this
process was, you know, likethere's a wound or a cut and
that cut begins to heal and thensomething else comes out.
It's like ripping that woundwide open all over again, every
time, every time, every time.
And it's just really hard forhealing to take place when
(07:54):
you're just constantly woundedby another thing, another thing,
another thing.
And so I think that's one ofthe benefits of being able to do
the full therapeuticdisclosures, because it tries to
get all that information out inone sort of sitting and write a
(08:15):
truth, instead of kind ofrewounding, rewounding,
rewounding.
That wound might feel reallybig, really hard, but it will
now be able to begin to healbecause it's not being ripped
open with new information oradditional details time and time
again.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Absolutely Right.
I feel like I've heard it alsoas a form of an x-ray Boy.
You know, my kids have brokentheir wrists each a couple of
times and nobody would go in,you know, and perform a surgery
on a broken wrist without anx-ray right, without knowing the
extent of the break.
(08:57):
Did it need surgery?
Did it need a cast?
So knowing the extent ofbetrayal helps a spouse ground
and then, like you were sharingfully heal, not just put a what
are those?
Bandages, gauze, yeah, gauze,or really really x-raying the
(09:18):
problem to like?
What do we need the problem tolike what do we need what?
And so let's you know, let'skind of dive in and try to
explain this, you know, as bestwe can.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Right, yeah, because, like, if they're going to do
something, some sort ofprocedure, they need to know
what they're getting into right.
The doctors need to know whatthey're getting into to how to
help that person heal the most.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
And how to really help create trust, safety,
vulnerability, intimacy, rightWith truth.
Yeah, I've heard like couplesreally share, like it really
reestablished a story of we.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, Can you share a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Just that power in that, that story of we
reestablishing the story of weWell, when a wife learns of
behaviors going on outside ofyou know her intimate
relationship, it all of a suddenwe is broken and it feels
(10:39):
safety is broken, trust isbroken and all of a sudden I'm
alone.
Now there's no we.
How can there be a we if what Iassumed was our relationship
was truth?
What I assumed was honesty,protection, loyalty.
(11:00):
Our sexual relationship wasbetween the two of us, and so
when there's a break in that,truth has to be re-established
in order to to build safety andvulnerability and intimacy.
So truth, you know, we're kindof talking about the end story
(11:20):
here, which you know, we'll kindof do the in-betweens, but it,
it reestablishes the story of we, when both people know the same
truth, the same story, the sameinformation.
Yeah, and there's more.
(11:40):
There's more I can say, butwe'll, we'll kind of take our
time as we go along.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
No, we're going to take our time as we go along.
No, we're going to get into itfor sure.
Yeah, and I think what's reallyinteresting about this process
and this will kind of come up ina couple of these different
areas too is, you know, thereare two very different
experiences of the same event.
We're kind of talking aboutthis disclosure process, so
there's a very differentexperience for the one doing the
(12:08):
disclosing, the discloser, andthe experience of the betrayed
partner, and we'll unpack that alittle bit more.
But the reality is that therehas been this event, and how do
we walk alongside these couplesin that process?
(12:28):
So let's go ahead and get intothe first sort of part of that,
which we've already kind ofalluded to.
It's just the importance of layout a sort of list of different
(12:52):
ways of acting out, includingways of deception and
withholding information and theways and lengths that that has
maybe gone to, and ultimately,there's a lot of voice that the
betray partner has in thisprocess.
(13:14):
Speak a little bit to that.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.
First of all, there's workbooks, right, each spouse gets a
workbook.
I'm not going to hide that.
These are kind of like collegetextbooks but they're large
print so we ease into it.
But you're right, the betrayedspouse has a lot of say and she
(13:43):
gets to decide what is sharedversus what is not shared and
there's something called adisclosure menu that she can
work through with her coach andthey'll go through line by line.
I want to know this.
I'm not sure if I want to knowthat and let's talk about it.
I know absolutely.
(14:04):
I've got to be told you know X,y, z and it's they call it a
menu because she can determine,take her time on how much she
wants to know and how little,and that's an important process.
Like, we don't have time to goin and out of that, but you can
definitely reach out to Aaronand I and ask for more
(14:27):
information about anything wetalk about today.
But there's so much voice thatthe wife gets to have, she gets
to ask for the truth and how shewants the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, yeah, that autonomy is super important,
yeah.
And then the disclosingindividual takes that
information and works you know,in our cases, works with me to
begin to kind of craft thatstatement, all that information,
and to answer those questions,knowing that this information is
actually a step in the healingprocess for his wife, for the
(15:09):
betrayed individual, to begin tojust get that information and
for their relationship Again,that foundation of truth, that
all the truth is now out.
There's no more hiding, there'sno more, yeah, kind of again
just picturing Jesus is in thegarden with Adam and Eve and
they're hiding.
There's no more, yeah, kind ofyou know, again just picturing
Jesus is, you know, in thegarden with Adam and Eve and
they're hiding.
Shame, but God knows thatthey're there, but it's there.
(15:34):
You know, they were afraid.
And so now there's this okay,all the information is out, I'm
not in hiding anymore.
And there's a lot of freedom inthat for the disclosing
individual.
And that's kind of what I meantearlier by these two very
different experiences of thesame thing where he might be
feeling a little like oh my gosh, I've been carrying this weight
(15:56):
for so long and wanted to saysomething.
I couldn't because of shame andthese different things.
Right, there's a sort of sighrelief for him to kind of get
that information out, and that'svery real, it's very freeing
and that's very important stufffor his healing journey.
But now, at the same token,there's a very different
(16:17):
experience that happens at thehand of that information, and so
that's just something to kindof think about and reconcile in
this process.
That it's not oh my gosh, I gotall the information out now
Everything's going to be better,it's okay.
That's just something to kindof think about and reconcile in
this process.
That it's not oh my gosh, I gotall the information out now
Everything's going to be better,it's okay.
Like, now you're taking steps.
(16:37):
They're both kind of takingsteps in their own journey which
ultimately again, hopefully youknow takes them up that pyramid
to that reestablishing me or wesorry, not me we establishing
we in that process and I have,you know, heard pushback about
that.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
No way, why would you want me to tell her everything
that is going to crush her, thatis going to make everything
worse.
I'm, I'm going to worse, I'mgoing to.
You're asking me to make itworse?
Well, actually, what they havefound is that knowledge for her,
(17:13):
for the wife, is power.
And I would love to say whocoined this?
I'm not stealing this, but mostwives would say hurt me with
the truth, kill me with a lie.
And this is such a thoughtfulprocess that he's working
(17:36):
through and there are so manybenefits.
Yes, he may feel relief, butnow she's carrying the weight of
the truth.
But she had to have that inorder to heal.
It was a right right, the rightof truth.
(17:59):
So, like we're saying, it's notan easy process.
Don't?
We're not taking this lightly.
You know, we know this comeswith pain and sorrow.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Absolutely.
This is really happy stuff, butjust so important and all the
more reason to be able to haveconversations and talk about.
You know where do you go, whatdo you do when you're facing
these sort of challenges in yourmarriage, and maybe you know
somebody that's going throughsomething like how and you want
to see them, you know, get helpand different things like so,
(18:40):
yeah, this is such a hard andbeautiful process, and you know.
And the other thing too is thatyou know I heard the host of
the Pure Sex Radio podcast talkabout.
You know, confession changesnothing without brokenness and
repentance.
So there's even a posture thatthe disclosing individual brings
(19:00):
to this right.
It isn't about just you know,that self-seeking kind of here's
all the information.
I'm going to unload this andunburden myself.
It really is a move towards thebrokenness and repentance.
Hear and see the impact of, ofwhat all that has done to, to,
(19:30):
in most cases, the wife and orjust, you know, the betrayed,
the betrayed partner and that'sactually the second phase of the
process is the impact letter.
So let's talk a little bitabout what does that look like
in this process?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, it is.
It's just what Aaron said.
It's the second part.
The first part is writing thedisclosure and sharing reading
the disclosure.
Right, and I'll just back up alittle.
It's with all parties, right,you know, aaron and I are there
and the husband and the wife arethere.
(20:10):
So it's the reading, is thefirst part, crafting it, writing
it, reading it.
Then afterwards, you know, shecan ask questions.
She's, you know, she's, here'sthe truth, ask questions.
And then the couple enters thesecond phase, which is the
(20:42):
grieving spouse.
The betrayed spouse, has theopportunity to write an impact
letter and it's over time, right, because she's absorbing now
what she's learned.
Possibly there are new thingsshared in the rite of truth, and
she's grieving.
The emotion is expressed in herletter, her letter, every impact
(21:05):
it's had financially, thefinancial impact on her and on
the family, the physical impacton her, what it was like to hear
the discoveries, what her bodyexperienced.
Was it anxiety, depression,ruminating thoughts?
(21:27):
She lost time from work.
Like this is her letter ofimpact sexually, how she was
impacted.
And spiritually, did itinterrupt her relationship with
God?
Was she not as trusting LikeGod?
How you know, how could youhave done this to me?
(21:49):
I've been praying for ourmarriage, I've been working on
our marriage, I have beenbelieving you for our marriage
and now, now, this is what I'mlearning, now, this is where I
am, and so this is a real,meaningful, difficult, painful
(22:10):
part of the disclosure and she'sallowed to take her time and
look at all aspects of her lifeand all the aspects of the
impact, of the impact, andmeanwhile, right, the husband is
(22:32):
working with a coach like Aaronand is preparing himself to
receive the impact graciously,without defense and how, really
establishing a safety, you know,establishing being a safe
person when she shares this.
Any of your thoughts, aaron,about this impact part?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, yeah, what I've seen happen over and over again
for the disclosing individualis that when, when he gets to
this particular part, it's very,very difficult, not that
sharing the information and allthe truth maybe it wasn't
difficult but to now hear it andto kind of face it and to
(23:21):
realize that what I see happen alot is guys turning inward
towards shame, and so there's alot of work that they have to do
in this sense of being able to,to be present and to be able to
hear and to know that you knowwhat the, what their partner is
sharing is not out of a place of, you know, condemnation and
(23:45):
different things.
It's a.
It's actually an invitation tointimacy.
It's a.
It's a it's a place of knowingyou know how this impact and how
that can actually change andtransform you know the hearts,
you know being able to, to bepresent and to show up Right.
So you know, I tell guys, someof the hardest work in recovery
(24:07):
is actually growing in empathyand learning to maybe be present
in ways that you haven't beenpresent before because of these
other things were in the way.
Now these things are out of theway and now we have to learn
how to be present, how to showup more, how to just to extend
that empathy, to allow her toexpress her emotions.
(24:30):
There's three things that sheneeds to heal she needs to be
able to express her emotions,she needs to be able to ask
questions and she needs thosequestions answered and that
every possible motive for actingout is explored, so that why
did you do that?
And even if the disclosingindividual doesn't have the
(24:51):
answers yet and I know that tobe the case, but the posture
being I don't know right now,but I'm going to work to try to
figure that out I want to movein that direction.
I don't have that answer foryou and not just leaving it as I
don't know, I don't know why.
(25:13):
You know a lot of you knowfights maybe kind of end there
or there's just no way you cango forward if that's the ending,
but I don't know why.
But I'm going to work to findout.
And there's a difference inthat.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
There is a difference , aaron, and I really appreciate
how you are giving space forthat.
And it's really holding yourpartner's heart.
It's crushed, it's wounded.
It's crushed, it's wounded,it's scared, it's angry, and
(25:55):
just holding it, holding spaceLike we've seen it.
Aaron, right, you know, we'veseen it.
Aaron, right, you know, we'veseen it.
It can be a tender place whenthe impact is shared and there's
a silent holding.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, yeah, you know I say I use this, you know, with
the men that I coach and thatyou know the encouragement to be
kind of like a container, avase, a cup, you know whatever
it might be right to be able tohold, like you know the the
their spouse is pouring out, youknow, can you hold, can you
(26:42):
hold that and even having themsometimes just like, even in a
session, kind of like they'reholding with their hands, like a
cup in their hands, justholding that space to be able to
allow that, because it's veryhealing and it can be very hard
because and I think there's awhole nother podcast, many
podcasts that we could do ondifferent elements of this and
(27:05):
that journey for each of theseindividuals that might go
through this process but I thinkyou know just that, being able
to hold space and growing inthat because, again, this might
be some really foreign territory, right.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Oh, you right, it is foreign territory, right yeah.
Territory right yeah, becauseobviously honesty hasn't, you
know, been able to, wasn't given, and it was necessary for a
(27:43):
marriage to build towards, to bebuilding an intimacy, growing
an intimacy, right.
The intimacy pyramid that youknow, I know we're going to get
to, but that truth and honestyis that strongest base.
Right of a house, rightBuilding a family, the strongest
foundation is truthfulness andhonesty and that is the full
(28:09):
therapeutic disclosure.
Really it's telling the truthand then the wife sharing the
enormous impact that is had onher and then the husband holding
it.
Do you want to share the thirdpart, aaron?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, speaking of that kind of holding it, that
kind of gets into, that's notlike a one and done for those.
Listening you know, like youknow you're, maybe you're
holding this information andthis heaviness and your spouse's
heart in a new way, maybe forthe first time, and hearing
those words and the ways thatthe acting out has affected her,
(28:48):
the deception has affected her,the gaslighting, the lack of
accountability, all thesedifferent things that the
disclosing individual then sitswith that for a little bit again
through coaching and throughbeing kind of cared for, and
then writes an empathy letter orempathy letter of restitution.
(29:08):
And this is really just areflection of the listening and
responding empathetically.
These are like you.
You put some really good wordsto this.
We were getting ready for thisand you said that it's listening
and responding empatheticallyto the pain the betrayed partner
has endured.
(29:29):
Yeah, and this process isreally acknowledging the impact
of those behaviors, how itaffected the betrayed partner,
the thoughts that she might haveabout herself, about the
relationship, about, you know,do I even know my husband and
(29:52):
wanting to move forward on apath, taking ownership of the
behaviors, of the level ofdeception and the different,
maybe, ways of deceiving andwithholding that information and
(30:29):
then that path forward.
The accountability what dorecovery plans look like?
You know the accountability,but what are recovery plans look
like ultimately, how?
How is safety going to becreated to help that couple
essentially move up that pyramidof intimacy?
(30:49):
And and what's so interesting iswhen I'm, when with these men,
I find that and again I alludedto this earlier like after they
share, there's this, oh gosh,like it's all out there and now
they kind of want to go from.
Now the truth is out, like,please, trust me.
Again, I've shared all thetruth.
(31:11):
Now, trust me, can you pleaselike, can we get back to like,
can you trust me?
There's nothing else?
Like, please, let's you know.
And all the truth, now, trustme, can you please like, can we
get back to like, can you trustme, there's nothing else?
Like, please, let's you know.
And but there's a problem,there's not safety, and that's
that second layer, right?
So guys want to jump thesedifferent levels truth to trust
without what's needed to providethe safety, and this is a a
(31:35):
part of hey, this is how reallyI think this could be called
like the safety letter, likethis is.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I just came to me.
But this is how I want tocreate safety for you moving
forward so that we there's thatI want to get back Can we get to
the place of we?
So here's what I want to needto do for you moving forward so
that we there's that I want toget back, can we get to the
place of we?
So here's what I want to needto do for you and also for me my
recovery, so that we right fillin the blank, that we can
(32:07):
experience the trust and thevulnerability and the intimacy
again.
And in so many ways and I knowwith couples that we've worked
with have expressed having abetter marriage than they've
ever had going through theprocess, which seems mind
blowing, like how can that be aGod's restorative work in his
(32:32):
heart?
And you know anyway, you wantto speak to that.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, you know, I love the fact that it starts
with cleaning out the wound,right, like you know, sticking
with the process of cleaning outthe wound to be able to get to
the healing, get to the healingand get to the later stages.
(32:59):
And there are couples who arewalking now in healing and
they're walking now in going tomarriage conferences, going to
deeper marriage counseling work,going to deeper marriage
counseling work.
They're able now to go tomarriage counseling because the
(33:22):
wound is being addressed andit's beautiful, right, it's
beautiful and it's courageousand I'm proud of both the
husband and the wife who arewilling to go through this
(33:43):
process.
And actually it really does getto the more intimate marriage
that people are actually wanted.
When they said I do, but therewas, oh, there was lying and
deception in the way and they,they couldn't get there.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
It was impossible yeah, yeah, this, this really
allows the fullness of what thatrelationship can be without you
know, without any hiding,without any secrets, and you
know without any hiding orwithout any secrets and you know
, without any sort of internaltug of wars that you know often
say to the men that I work withyou know there's, when it comes
(34:26):
to your relationship, there'snot, there's before that really
starts to heal.
You've got to, you've got toheal, and she needs she's needs
to heal, and then as you bothheal, you're kind of bringing
sort of that healing togetherand your relationship starts to
heal.
Yeah, more you heal and themore she heals, the more your
relationship will heal.
And it's really interesting howthat really is so true, like,
(34:51):
and I think about, as as youtalk about the these different
analogies with the doctors andthings like there are
specialists Like we go to, youknow, if there's a cancer, we
see an oncologist.
We don't go to the foot doctor,you know, like even that's a
specialty but that's you know.
But there are therapists who dothis, coaches who in this,
because it is sort of aspecialty to go through this and
(35:40):
to know how to help a couple,and so, yeah, that just comes to
mind, as you're kind of talkingabout the different kind of
analogies of wounds and healing,that if you want to really heal
a particular wound in aparticular way, you may need a
specialist.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Right, and you know you may be.
You know listening to this andyou're two years in
post-discovery and you haven'tdone this.
It's not too late.
It's.
It's not too late to do a fulltherapeutic disclosure.
You know so many.
You know women I've coached.
(36:19):
You know they jumped fromdiscovery to marriage work and
that they didn't have the truthand it became a communication
problem.
And this isn't a communicationproblem, it's a deception
problem, right?
And so, wherever you are, youcan back up and reach out or,
(36:44):
you know, go, look at thesebooks.
We're going to have it in theshow notes.
You know Dan Drake and JaniceCaldwell.
You know full therapeuticdisclosures and there's
workbooks.
And it's never too late.
You can always begin again.
Right, his mercy is new everymorning.
(37:06):
Great is his faithfulness.
We're here, our door is open,and we would love to be one step
in the process of healing.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's so good.
And yeah, I think I would justadd you know, I know that you
know we've talked a lot aboutmentioning the intimacy pyramid.
We'll put that in the shownotes.
Actually, next week's episode,listeners will get to hear a
little bit more about that asour executive director, Josh,
sits down with the Rav Smithsand have a conversation A little
(37:43):
bit of their story but also onthe intimacy pyramid and so more
of that to come.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
But I would just love to close this out in a word of
prayer Awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Thanks, aaron.
Jesus, we thank you for thisconversation today, lord, and we
thank you that, at the veryheart, lord, of the heavy and
the brokenness and Lord, thethings that we talked about
today, lord is your heart, thethings that we talked about
today, lord is your heart, yourheart for couples, lord, for
(38:18):
marriage, for covenant, forhealing Lord, and we just invite
your healing Lord for anyonelistening, lord, anyone who's
been on that journey or islooking to step into that
journey, lord, that you wouldmeet them, lord, with your
faithfulness and your grace,lord, that you would indeed hold
(38:39):
them up, lord, through theprocess, like Aaron and her.
That you would be with themevery step of the way and that
you would bring Lord repair towhat might seem irreparable.
That you are a God, lord, whocan work in that way.
And so we thank you, lord, foryour heart and for all that
(39:02):
you've done, lord, and all thatyou have yet to do and long to
do.
Lord, in and through Lordrelationships.
We ask these things in Jesus'name, amen.
Have you ever been on a drive and noticed a house
where something just looked off?
I mean, maybe the porch wascrooked or sagging, or maybe it
looked like the house wasleaning even or sinking into the
ground.
This is probably due to acompromise in the building's
(00:22):
foundation.
To a compromise in thebuilding's foundation, something
happened that has caused thatoriginal design and function of
that structure to no longer beable to stand as it was designed
.
And, friends, this can happenin relationships as well,
(00:44):
especially when there is someform of betrayal.
On today's podcast, we're goingto discuss the full therapeutic
disclosure and why it may bebeneficial for couples who have
experienced betrayal.
Experienced betrayal.
(01:08):
My name is Aaron Taggart and Iam one of our men's spiritual
coaches here at Regen, and I amjoined today by my amazing
colleague, anne Donahue.
Anne is one of our women'sspiritual coaches at
Regeneration and she leads ourwives groups for betrayed
partners, and I've had theprivilege of working alongside
Anne as we walk with couplesthrough the full therapeutic
(01:31):
disclosure process.
Anne, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you.
I'm so glad that I'm here and Ihave really appreciated being
able to work with you, aaron, onfull therapeutic disclosures,
and I am ready to dive in.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, me too.
It has been great working withyou and working with couples and
just seeing what God can dothrough a process, a hard
process, Because his heart isfor relationship and covenant
and healing, and this processreally gives couples a chance at
(02:12):
that.
And so, yeah, let's dive in alittle bit to just kind of what
is.
I know some of our listenersmight be thinking what in the
world is a full therapeuticdisclosure and why would a
couple ever consider doing one?
So let's just start there.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, that's right.
Why in the world would I gothrough a process like this, go
through a process like this?
And I would say I you know froma more formal, like technical
(02:56):
process.
It's, it's the right of truth,it's it's a one space to hear a
protected, to be protected andbring, bring the truth, laying
the foundation of truth for acouple, but in a really safe
setting.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It does lay some reallyimportant groundwork for the
rest of that relationship toreally flourish.
That foundation of truth has tobe really solid.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, and I love the word.
Don't be scared by the wordtherapeutic.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You know, full, we'll get to full.
But therapeutic right Is justsafe.
Both husband and wife areprotected and supported and
guided through thistruth-telling process.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, that's so good, anne.
I think that's such a goodthing really.
Just to emphasize yeah, thisisn't a therapist's office per
se type, just like.
I think when people heartherapy, they're like, oh my
gosh, what am I getting into?
And I think you've framed thatso well, because it really is
about holding both thedisclosing partner and the
(04:21):
betrayed partner through aprocess where they are cared for
, encouraged and with people whohave been trained you and I
have been trained.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And there are a lot of benefits and fruit that come
from this process.
But it begins really by holdingthis couple up and I picture
kind of like Aaron and herholding up Moses so Moses can do
the really hard work.
And it's like you and I arekind of, and other clinicians
(04:54):
and coaches and guides out therewho do this work are really
helping to hold that couple asthey walk through something so
delicate and hard for theirrelationship.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I mean just that picture, aaron, of being held up
, because when there's betrayal,the wife is laid flat.
Right, she's discoveredsomething on her husband's phone
.
Her husband disclosed somethinglate at night.
(05:28):
Like I have been, I've beenhurting you and I've been lying
so flat out two people laid flatout, and somehow the truth has
to be able to be shared.
And then the couple needssupport to help stand up.
(05:55):
And that's the disclosingprocess, right, it's typically
gone very poorly, right, notanybody's fault, but just those
original, those not original,but those first days, those
first minutes of, you know, adeception being discovered or
(06:16):
something being disclosedhappens late at night and nobody
(06:37):
is in the right frame of mindor space to hear the truth or
give the truth.
And those first go at it don'tgo well, and we've been couples.
Stop the destruction, stop thedrip disclosure and try to get
support and help for couples,you know, at the worst hour of
(07:01):
their lives at the worst hour oftheir lives.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you were mentioning kind of the
trips and drabs or sort ofthese kind of scattered
disclosures like differentevents or different things that
are disclosed over time, insteadof in this process.
Everything's kind of laid out inone process and we'll get into
that in a minute.
But I think a real benefit ofdoing that way, especially for
(07:29):
the betrayed partner, is thatyou know, if you imagine if this
process was, you know, likethere's a wound or a cut and
that cut begins to heal and thensomething else comes out.
It's like ripping that woundwide open all over again, every
time, every time, every time.
And it's just really hard forhealing to take place when
(07:54):
you're just constantly woundedby another thing, another thing,
another thing.
And so I think that's one ofthe benefits of being able to do
the full therapeuticdisclosures, because it tries to
get all that information out inone sort of sitting and write a
(08:15):
truth, instead of kind ofrewounding, rewounding,
rewounding.
That wound might feel reallybig, really hard, but it will
now be able to begin to healbecause it's not being ripped
open with new information oradditional details time and time
again.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Absolutely Right.
I feel like I've heard it alsoas a form of an x-ray Boy.
You know, my kids have brokentheir wrists each a couple of
times and nobody would go in,you know, and perform a surgery
on a broken wrist without anx-ray right, without knowing the
extent of the break.
(08:57):
Did it need surgery?
Did it need a cast?
So knowing the extent ofbetrayal helps a spouse ground
and then, like you were sharingfully heal, not just put a what
are those?
Bandages, gauze, yeah, gauze,or really really x-raying the
(09:18):
problem to like?
What do we need the problem tolike what do we need what?
And so let's you know, let'skind of dive in and try to
explain this, you know, as bestwe can.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Right, yeah, because, like, if they're going to do
something, some sort ofprocedure, they need to know
what they're getting into right.
The doctors need to know whatthey're getting into to how to
help that person heal the most.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
And how to really help create trust, safety,
vulnerability, intimacy, rightWith truth.
Yeah, I've heard like couplesreally share, like it really
reestablished a story of we.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yeah, Can you share a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Just that power in that, that story of we
reestablishing the story of weWell, when a wife learns of
behaviors going on outside ofyou know her intimate
relationship, it all of a suddenwe is broken and it feels
(10:39):
safety is broken, trust isbroken and all of a sudden I'm
alone.
Now there's no we.
How can there be a we if what Iassumed was our relationship
was truth?
What I assumed was honesty,protection, loyalty.
(11:00):
Our sexual relationship wasbetween the two of us, and so
when there's a break in that,truth has to be re-established
in order to to build safety andvulnerability and intimacy.
So truth, you know, we're kindof talking about the end story
(11:20):
here, which you know, we'll kindof do the in-betweens, but it,
it reestablishes the story of we, when both people know the same
truth, the same story, the sameinformation.
Yeah, and there's more.
(11:40):
There's more I can say, butwe'll, we'll kind of take our
time as we go along.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
No, we're going to take our time as we go along.
No, we're going to get into itfor sure.
Yeah, and I think what's reallyinteresting about this process
and this will kind of come up ina couple of these different
areas too is, you know, thereare two very different
experiences of the same event.
We're kind of talking aboutthis disclosure process, so
there's a very differentexperience for the one doing the
(12:08):
disclosing, the discloser, andthe experience of the betrayed
partner, and we'll unpack that alittle bit more.
But the reality is that therehas been this event, and how do
we walk alongside these couplesin that process?
(12:28):
So let's go ahead and get intothe first sort of part of that,
which we've already kind ofalluded to.
It's just the importance of layout a sort of list of different
(12:52):
ways of acting out, includingways of deception and
withholding information and theways and lengths that that has
maybe gone to, and ultimately,there's a lot of voice that the
betray partner has in thisprocess.
(13:14):
Speak a little bit to that.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up.
First of all, there's workbooks, right, each spouse gets a
workbook.
I'm not going to hide that.
These are kind of like collegetextbooks but they're large
print so we ease into it.
But you're right, the betrayedspouse has a lot of say and she
(13:43):
gets to decide what is sharedversus what is not shared and
there's something called adisclosure menu that she can
work through with her coach andthey'll go through line by line.
I want to know this.
I'm not sure if I want to knowthat and let's talk about it.
I know absolutely.
(14:04):
I've got to be told you know X,y, z and it's they call it a
menu because she can determine,take her time on how much she
wants to know and how little,and that's an important process.
Like, we don't have time to goin and out of that, but you can
definitely reach out to Aaronand I and ask for more
(14:27):
information about anything wetalk about today.
But there's so much voice thatthe wife gets to have, she gets
to ask for the truth and how shewants the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, yeah, that autonomy is super important,
yeah.
And then the disclosingindividual takes that
information and works you know,in our cases, works with me to
begin to kind of craft thatstatement, all that information,
and to answer those questions,knowing that this information is
actually a step in the healingprocess for his wife, for the
(15:09):
betrayed individual, to begin tojust get that information and
for their relationship Again,that foundation of truth, that
all the truth is now out.
There's no more hiding, there'sno more, yeah, kind of again
just picturing Jesus is in thegarden with Adam and Eve and
they're hiding.
There's no more, yeah, kind ofyou know, again just picturing
Jesus is, you know, in thegarden with Adam and Eve and
they're hiding.
Shame, but God knows thatthey're there, but it's there.
(15:34):
You know, they were afraid.
And so now there's this okay,all the information is out, I'm
not in hiding anymore.
And there's a lot of freedom inthat for the disclosing
individual.
And that's kind of what I meantearlier by these two very
different experiences of thesame thing where he might be
feeling a little like oh my gosh, I've been carrying this weight
(15:56):
for so long and wanted to saysomething.
I couldn't because of shame andthese different things.
Right, there's a sort of sighrelief for him to kind of get
that information out, and that'svery real, it's very freeing
and that's very important stufffor his healing journey.
But now, at the same token,there's a very different
(16:17):
experience that happens at thehand of that information, and so
that's just something to kindof think about and reconcile in
this process.
That it's not oh my gosh, I gotall the information out now
Everything's going to be better,it's okay.
That's just something to kindof think about and reconcile in
this process.
That it's not oh my gosh, I gotall the information out now
Everything's going to be better,it's okay.
Like, now you're taking steps.
(16:37):
They're both kind of takingsteps in their own journey which
ultimately again, hopefully youknow takes them up that pyramid
to that reestablishing me or wesorry, not me we establishing
we in that process and I have,you know, heard pushback about
that.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
No way, why would you want me to tell her everything
that is going to crush her, thatis going to make everything
worse.
I'm, I'm going to worse, I'mgoing to.
You're asking me to make itworse?
Well, actually, what they havefound is that knowledge for her,
(17:13):
for the wife, is power.
And I would love to say whocoined this?
I'm not stealing this, but mostwives would say hurt me with
the truth, kill me with a lie.
And this is such a thoughtfulprocess that he's working
(17:36):
through and there are so manybenefits.
Yes, he may feel relief, butnow she's carrying the weight of
the truth.
But she had to have that inorder to heal.
It was a right right, the rightof truth.
(17:59):
So, like we're saying, it's notan easy process.
Don't?
We're not taking this lightly.
You know, we know this comeswith pain and sorrow.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Absolutely.
This is really happy stuff, butjust so important and all the
more reason to be able to haveconversations and talk about.
You know where do you go, whatdo you do when you're facing
these sort of challenges in yourmarriage, and maybe you know
somebody that's going throughsomething like how and you want
to see them, you know, get helpand different things like so,
(18:40):
yeah, this is such a hard andbeautiful process, and you know.
And the other thing too is thatyou know I heard the host of
the Pure Sex Radio podcast talkabout.
You know, confession changesnothing without brokenness and
repentance.
So there's even a posture thatthe disclosing individual brings
(19:00):
to this right.
It isn't about just you know,that self-seeking kind of here's
all the information.
I'm going to unload this andunburden myself.
It really is a move towards thebrokenness and repentance.
Hear and see the impact of, ofwhat all that has done to, to,
(19:30):
in most cases, the wife and orjust, you know, the betrayed,
the betrayed partner and that'sactually the second phase of the
process is the impact letter.
So let's talk a little bitabout what does that look like
in this process?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, it is.
It's just what Aaron said.
It's the second part.
The first part is writing thedisclosure and sharing reading
the disclosure.
Right, and I'll just back up alittle.
It's with all parties, right,you know, aaron and I are there
and the husband and the wife arethere.
(20:10):
So it's the reading, is thefirst part, crafting it, writing
it, reading it.
Then afterwards, you know, shecan ask questions.
She's, you know, she's, here'sthe truth, ask questions.
And then the couple enters thesecond phase, which is the
(20:42):
grieving spouse.
The betrayed spouse, has theopportunity to write an impact
letter and it's over time, right, because she's absorbing now
what she's learned.
Possibly there are new thingsshared in the rite of truth, and
she's grieving.
The emotion is expressed in herletter, her letter, every impact
(21:05):
it's had financially, thefinancial impact on her and on
the family, the physical impacton her, what it was like to hear
the discoveries, what her bodyexperienced.
Was it anxiety, depression,ruminating thoughts?
(21:27):
She lost time from work.
Like this is her letter ofimpact sexually, how she was
impacted.
And spiritually, did itinterrupt her relationship with
God?
Was she not as trusting LikeGod?
How you know, how could youhave done this to me?
(21:49):
I've been praying for ourmarriage, I've been working on
our marriage, I have beenbelieving you for our marriage
and now, now, this is what I'mlearning, now, this is where I
am, and so this is a real,meaningful, difficult, painful
(22:10):
part of the disclosure and she'sallowed to take her time and
look at all aspects of her lifeand all the aspects of the
impact, of the impact, andmeanwhile, right, the husband is
(22:32):
working with a coach like Aaronand is preparing himself to
receive the impact graciously,without defense and how, really
establishing a safety, you know,establishing being a safe
person when she shares this.
Any of your thoughts, aaron,about this impact part?
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, yeah, what I've seen happen over and over again
for the disclosing individualis that when, when he gets to
this particular part, it's very,very difficult, not that
sharing the information and allthe truth maybe it wasn't
difficult but to now hear it andto kind of face it and to
(23:21):
realize that what I see happen alot is guys turning inward
towards shame, and so there's alot of work that they have to do
in this sense of being able to,to be present and to be able to
hear and to know that you knowwhat the, what their partner is
sharing is not out of a place of, you know, condemnation and
(23:45):
different things.
It's a.
It's actually an invitation tointimacy.
It's a.
It's a it's a place of knowingyou know how this impact and how
that can actually change andtransform you know the hearts,
you know being able to, to bepresent and to show up Right.
So you know, I tell guys, someof the hardest work in recovery
(24:07):
is actually growing in empathyand learning to maybe be present
in ways that you haven't beenpresent before because of these
other things were in the way.
Now these things are out of theway and now we have to learn
how to be present, how to showup more, how to just to extend
that empathy, to allow her toexpress her emotions.
(24:30):
There's three things that sheneeds to heal she needs to be
able to express her emotions,she needs to be able to ask
questions and she needs thosequestions answered and that
every possible motive for actingout is explored, so that why
did you do that?
And even if the disclosingindividual doesn't have the
(24:51):
answers yet and I know that tobe the case, but the posture
being I don't know right now,but I'm going to work to try to
figure that out I want to movein that direction.
I don't have that answer foryou and not just leaving it as I
don't know, I don't know why.
(25:13):
You know a lot of you knowfights maybe kind of end there
or there's just no way you cango forward if that's the ending,
but I don't know why.
But I'm going to work to findout.
And there's a difference inthat.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
There is a difference , aaron, and I really appreciate
how you are giving space forthat.
And it's really holding yourpartner's heart.
It's crushed, it's wounded.
It's crushed, it's wounded,it's scared, it's angry, and
(25:55):
just holding it, holding spaceLike we've seen it.
Aaron, right, you know, we'veseen it.
Aaron, right, you know, we'veseen it.
It can be a tender place whenthe impact is shared and there's
a silent holding.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, yeah, you know I say I use this, you know, with
the men that I coach and thatyou know the encouragement to be
kind of like a container, avase, a cup, you know whatever
it might be right to be able tohold, like you know the the
their spouse is pouring out, youknow, can you hold, can you
(26:42):
hold that and even having themsometimes just like, even in a
session, kind of like they'reholding with their hands, like a
cup in their hands, justholding that space to be able to
allow that, because it's veryhealing and it can be very hard
because and I think there's awhole nother podcast, many
podcasts that we could do ondifferent elements of this and
(27:05):
that journey for each of theseindividuals that might go
through this process but I thinkyou know just that, being able
to hold space and growing inthat because, again, this might
be some really foreign territory, right.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Oh, you right, it is foreign territory, right yeah.
Territory right yeah, becauseobviously honesty hasn't, you
know, been able to, wasn't given, and it was necessary for a
(27:43):
marriage to build towards, to bebuilding an intimacy, growing
an intimacy, right.
The intimacy pyramid that youknow, I know we're going to get
to, but that truth and honestyis that strongest base.
Right of a house, rightBuilding a family, the strongest
foundation is truthfulness andhonesty and that is the full
(28:09):
therapeutic disclosure.
Really it's telling the truthand then the wife sharing the
enormous impact that is had onher and then the husband holding
it.
Do you want to share the thirdpart, aaron?
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Yeah, speaking of that kind of holding it, that
kind of gets into, that's notlike a one and done for those.
Listening you know, like youknow you're, maybe you're
holding this information andthis heaviness and your spouse's
heart in a new way, maybe forthe first time, and hearing
those words and the ways thatthe acting out has affected her,
(28:48):
the deception has affected her,the gaslighting, the lack of
accountability, all thesedifferent things that the
disclosing individual then sitswith that for a little bit again
through coaching and throughbeing kind of cared for, and
then writes an empathy letter orempathy letter of restitution.
(29:08):
And this is really just areflection of the listening and
responding empathetically.
These are like you.
You put some really good wordsto this.
We were getting ready for thisand you said that it's listening
and responding empatheticallyto the pain the betrayed partner
has endured.
(29:29):
Yeah, and this process isreally acknowledging the impact
of those behaviors, how itaffected the betrayed partner,
the thoughts that she might haveabout herself, about the
relationship, about, you know,do I even know my husband and
(29:52):
wanting to move forward on apath, taking ownership of the
behaviors, of the level ofdeception and the different,
maybe, ways of deceiving andwithholding that information and
(30:29):
then that path forward.
The accountability what dorecovery plans look like?
You know the accountability,but what are recovery plans look
like ultimately, how?
How is safety going to becreated to help that couple
essentially move up that pyramidof intimacy?
(30:49):
And and what's so interesting iswhen I'm, when with these men,
I find that and again I alludedto this earlier like after they
share, there's this, oh gosh,like it's all out there and now
they kind of want to go from.
Now the truth is out, like,please, trust me.
Again, I've shared all thetruth.
(31:11):
Now, trust me, can you pleaselike, can we get back to like,
can you trust me?
There's nothing else?
Like, please, let's you know.
And all the truth, now, trustme, can you please like, can we
get back to like, can you trustme, there's nothing else?
Like, please, let's you know.
And but there's a problem,there's not safety, and that's
that second layer, right?
So guys want to jump thesedifferent levels truth to trust
without what's needed to providethe safety, and this is a a
(31:35):
part of hey, this is how reallyI think this could be called
like the safety letter, likethis is.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I just came to me.
But this is how I want tocreate safety for you moving
forward so that we there's thatI want to get back Can we get to
the place of we?
So here's what I want to needto do for you moving forward so
that we there's that I want toget back, can we get to the
place of we?
So here's what I want to needto do for you and also for me my
recovery, so that we right fillin the blank, that we can
(32:07):
experience the trust and thevulnerability and the intimacy
again.
And in so many ways and I knowwith couples that we've worked
with have expressed having abetter marriage than they've
ever had going through theprocess, which seems mind
blowing, like how can that be aGod's restorative work in his
(32:32):
heart?
And you know anyway, you wantto speak to that.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Well, you know, I love the fact that it starts
with cleaning out the wound,right, like you know, sticking
with the process of cleaning outthe wound to be able to get to
the healing, get to the healingand get to the later stages.
(32:59):
And there are couples who arewalking now in healing and
they're walking now in going tomarriage conferences, going to
deeper marriage counseling work,going to deeper marriage
counseling work.
They're able now to go tomarriage counseling because the
(33:22):
wound is being addressed andit's beautiful, right, it's
beautiful and it's courageousand I'm proud of both the
husband and the wife who arewilling to go through this
(33:43):
process.
And actually it really does getto the more intimate marriage
that people are actually wanted.
When they said I do, but therewas, oh, there was lying and
deception in the way and they,they couldn't get there.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
It was impossible yeah, yeah, this, this really
allows the fullness of what thatrelationship can be without you
know, without any hiding,without any secrets, and you
know without any hiding orwithout any secrets and you know
, without any sort of internaltug of wars that you know often
say to the men that I work withyou know there's, when it comes
(34:26):
to your relationship, there'snot, there's before that really
starts to heal.
You've got to, you've got toheal, and she needs she's needs
to heal, and then as you bothheal, you're kind of bringing
sort of that healing togetherand your relationship starts to
heal.
Yeah, more you heal and themore she heals, the more your
relationship will heal.
And it's really interesting howthat really is so true, like,
(34:51):
and I think about, as as youtalk about the these different
analogies with the doctors andthings like there are
specialists Like we go to, youknow, if there's a cancer, we
see an oncologist.
We don't go to the foot doctor,you know, like even that's a
specialty but that's you know.
But there are therapists who dothis, coaches who in this,
because it is sort of aspecialty to go through this and
(35:40):
to know how to help a couple,and so, yeah, that just comes to
mind, as you're kind of talkingabout the different kind of
analogies of wounds and healing,that if you want to really heal
a particular wound in aparticular way, you may need a
specialist.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Right, and you know you may be.
You know listening to this andyou're two years in
post-discovery and you haven'tdone this.
It's not too late.
It's.
It's not too late to do a fulltherapeutic disclosure.
You know so many.
You know women I've coached.
(36:19):
You know they jumped fromdiscovery to marriage work and
that they didn't have the truthand it became a communication
problem.
And this isn't a communicationproblem, it's a deception
problem, right?
And so, wherever you are, youcan back up and reach out or,
(36:44):
you know, go, look at thesebooks.
We're going to have it in theshow notes.
You know Dan Drake and JaniceCaldwell.
You know full therapeuticdisclosures and there's
workbooks.
And it's never too late.
You can always begin again.
Right, his mercy is new everymorning.
(37:06):
Great is his faithfulness.
We're here, our door is open,and we would love to be one step
in the process of healing.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's so good.
And yeah, I think I would justadd you know, I know that you
know we've talked a lot aboutmentioning the intimacy pyramid.
We'll put that in the shownotes.
Actually, next week's episode,listeners will get to hear a
little bit more about that asour executive director, Josh,
sits down with the Rav Smithsand have a conversation A little
(37:43):
bit of their story but also onthe intimacy pyramid and so more
of that to come.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
But I would just love to close this out in a word of
prayer Awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Thanks, aaron.
Jesus, we thank you for thisconversation today, lord, and we
thank you that, at the veryheart, lord, of the heavy and
the brokenness and Lord, thethings that we talked about
today, lord is your heart, thethings that we talked about
today, lord is your heart, yourheart for couples, lord, for
(38:18):
marriage, for covenant, forhealing Lord, and we just invite
your healing Lord for anyonelistening, lord, anyone who's
been on that journey or islooking to step into that
journey, lord, that you wouldmeet them, lord, with your
faithfulness and your grace,lord, that you would indeed hold
(38:39):
them up, lord, through theprocess, like Aaron and her.
That you would be with themevery step of the way and that
you would bring Lord repair towhat might seem irreparable.
That you are a God, lord, whocan work in that way.
And so we thank you, lord, foryour heart and for all that
(39:02):
you've done, lord, and all thatyou have yet to do and long to
do.
Lord, in and through Lordrelationships.
We ask these things in Jesus'name, amen.
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