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April 22, 2025 • 44 mins

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In this episode of Becoming Whole, we sit down with Matthew and Joanna RaabSmith to discuss their personal journey of recovering from marital betrayal and the work they do with other couples to rebuild intimacy. They share their unique story of whirlwind romance, struggles with sexual addiction, and the steps they took towards healing and recovery. The conversation delves into their development of the 'intimacy pyramid,' a framework to guide couples through honesty, safety, trust, vulnerability, and ultimately, intimacy. Matthew and Joanna provide insights on navigating recovery, sexual reintegration, and building a thriving marriage post-betrayal. This episode is a beacon of hope, courage, and practical guidance for married couples in recovery, as well as singles looking to understand relational dynamics.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Freebies from the Raabsmiths

Matthew & Joanna's Book

Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole

👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, welcome back everybody.
I'm eager to get into theconversation today and we are,
admittedly, gonna fly prettyquickly through a lot of content
.
But I'm talking today withMatthew and Joanna Rapsmith, who
, for a couple reasons One,because they have their own
story of recovery from maritalbetrayal and also because they
work with a lot of couples whoare trying to rebuild intimacy

(00:22):
in its many forms, includingrebuilding sexual intimacy,
which we're going to get into inthis podcast.
So if you're married, listeningand you're in recovery, hang on
.
If you are single and you'relistening, hang on, because all
of us are relational and thethings that they're going to
share with us, the things we'regoing to talk about today, do
have implications for all of usas we're walking this road of

(00:44):
recovery.
So glad you're listening in and,joanna and Matthew, I'm so glad
to be speaking with you.
Thanks for bringing yourexpertise and your story.
And maybe we just start there.
Let's just share with ourlisteners a little bit about how
.
I'm assuming you didn't go tocollege to work on marital
recovery stuff.
So how did you guys?
start into this.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
I did our career path in high school.
That's not what the counselors,you know, laid out for me.
Um, yeah, it's reallyinteresting because I was
thinking about that.
We, um we had a kind ofwhirlwind romance, I'd say, or
maybe relationship we, joannaand I.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Actually we went on four dates before we got engaged
um yeah, yep, and then we'remarried but they were, but they
were like week-long dates at atime.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, they were like they were.
It was crazy.
It was a little bit like thebachelor, like we would go on
these crazy dates, like we wonour very first date.
We entered a couple's golftournament and we won um, and,
and so it was like you just knewit was a good sign.
Our third, day was on field ofdreams in iowa and we were like
throwing you know the baseballand hitting the baseball on the
Field of Dreams, I mean it was.

(01:47):
It really kind of felt likethis is not a, not real life.
So we we got started reallyquickly and one of the things
that drew us to each other is Ithink we had a heart for
ministry and we really wanted tosee the church and and kind of
God's mission really impactmarriages and we wanted a great

(02:09):
marriage.
We wanted something that wasreally really special.
We noticed there was a lot ofnegativity around marriage or
even in the church.
It felt like there were a lot ofpeople that kind of would use
those old tropes like ball andchain and it just kind of it
goes downhill once you getmarried.
And so we were just kind ofdiss, use those old tropes like
ball and chain and it just kindof it goes downhill once you get
married and and so we were justkind of dissatisfied with that

(02:29):
and so we were super passionateabout it but had no idea how to
have a good marriage like it waslike let's have this great
thing and we have no idea how todo it, and so that really I
think the the beginning stagesof our relationship were we're
kind of figuring out what itlooked like.
What does it look like toactually have a good marriage
when you don't quite know how todo it?

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Yeah, and we ended up going to seminary together,
thinking we were going to be allin on doing ministry together.
And while we were in seminary weactually went to.
They had a group program therefor the students, the students
who were married.
It was at the time calledStrong Marriages, successful
Ministries, and the idea was, asa ministry couple, the health

(03:11):
of your marriage was going todeeply impact the ministry, the
health of the ministry, and soit was based on a modality
called restoration therapy andas we went through this
eight-week program and learnedabout our cycles and learned how
to change those cycles, itdramatically changed our
marriage and the way we relateto one another and just, we

(03:32):
finally felt like we had a path,we had tools to create the
relationship we wanted, and sowe got really passionate, I
think, about serving others andsharing that with others.
I think about serving othersand sharing that with others.
And so I went back and I didthe MFT program so we could
really dive into that, and sothat kind of started.
That started changing thedirection just a little bit.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, and I think the so we had this kind of idea and
we felt like we had the tools,but we kept getting stuck.
And what Joanna didn't know wasthat one of the big pieces that
was keeping us stuck was thiskind of sexual addiction, this
kind of broken, problematicsexuality that I had really
brought in to our marriagebecause I had been struggling

(04:16):
with it my whole life, really,since the time I could kind of
remember being exposed topornography young, being engaged
to kind of highly sexualizedcultures.
I grew up in the 80s where, youknow, we were watching R-rated
movies when I was six or sevenyears old, you know, and you
know kind of hanging on my face,you know, but knew exactly what
was going on, and so I hadbrought this in and so, even

(04:39):
though we had this reallywonderful connection, it kept
getting eroded by this addictionand I just noticed it kind of
pulling us further and furtherapart.
And Joanna had no idea what wasgoing on.
She just knew that there wasthat disconnection.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
I could feel I could sense like, okay, wait, we
finally have the tools, we canfinally move into this healthy
intimacy that we've wanted.
Why are we still getting stuck?
It was very confusing for meand I started giving up.
I think a lot of hope, any hope.
I just kind of said, ok, Iguess this is just what
relationship is, or ourrelationship is Actually.

(05:14):
Until I started the MFT program,my very first class was called
Shame and Guilt.
It was a two-week intensivegreat class to take first class
out of the gate intensive greatclass to take first first class
out of the gate.
But they had an anonymouspastor came and gave his
testimony of overcoming sexualaddiction and healing betrayal
in his marriage and as he wastalking like so I could just

(05:36):
sense it in my gut.
I was like this is it, this isthe thing, this is why we're
stuck, and so I furiously wrotedown every resource he mentioned
using.
I went home that afternoon, Ishared what we had talked about
in class and I finally justasked I asked a point blank is
this something you're strugglingwith?

Speaker 2 (05:55):
And for the first time in three years of our
marriage, three and a half yearsof our marriage I was finally
honest and it was really thatstory of hope and kind of a path
.
I think those are the things Iwas like okay, I could see the
destination, but I could alsosee the path.
Up until that point I had beenkind of crying out to God a lot
on my own.

(06:16):
I had been having these kind ofreally deep internal struggles
because I knew what I was doing.
It wasn't what I wanted, itwasn't who I was, it wasn't what
God wanted for me, but I just Ifelt like I couldn't stop and
so I was like kind of crying outlike God, just if you will show
me the way, I will follow it.
And so when Joanna kind of camehome, it was kind of like God

(06:44):
be what we would end up doing inour life.
And I think that a lot of partsof that early journey I was
hoping this would not be ourfuture.
But I think as we started toheal, as we started to, as I
started to heal personally, aswe started to heal as a couple,
we still had that hunger forlike what's?
What's the really, really greatmarriage that's out there for us

(07:05):
and how do we get it?
And we didn't know there wasn'ta lot of resources for that at
the time.
There was kind of like here'show to not have your marriage
die, but there wasn't a lot ofhere's how your marriage thrives
and survives, and so we justgot so passionate about that
personally that as we starteddoing work professionally in
this field, we just realizedlike no, this is the area we

(07:26):
want to work in, because we knowso many couples who want a
great great marriage andprobably have a really good
connection.
They actually really like theirspouse, they like who they're
married to, but they'restruggling to get to the kind of
connection that is solife-giving that God intended
and so so, yeah, so we've justkind of poured ourselves into

(07:49):
that and now we get to do it dayin and day out.
It's a weird job to have.
I don't know that.
My parents still understandquite what we do, you know.
But it's, but it's fun.
We, we, we really love it andit's and it's really been
through that journey that'sallowed us to do this work.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Yeah, awesome, thank you for that.
All right, I have to rewindjust a little bit because, um,
it's uh, it's obvious thatthere's.
You guys had a shared passioneven even early on, for, like,
we want to help people havevibrant marriages.
Um, this is important to us.
It's important that this is anarea of ministry we want to go
into um and that there there wassome element of, even with this

(08:27):
um, with the, with hisdiscovery of your sexual acting
out, matthew, that that's thatstring that continued on.
I mean, that was stillsomething that propelled you
forward.
Um, but I think what I want togo back to because I know people
listening to me like, wait,wait, we had dreams, we had
shared passions.
Like we, um, I can think of acouple I know, like they, they

(08:50):
wanted to be in ministrytogether and then when, when
crap hit the fan, um, the, the,almost the assumption was all
that doesn't, we don't get toplay anymore like that's over,
absolutely like what happenedfor you guys, that you actually,
like that ball continued to godown the field.
Um, I mean, because the way youshared it, it's almost like we
just had this littleinterruption.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
I'm sure it wasn't just a little interruption.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
No, no, not at all when, so where'd the hope come
from?

Speaker 3 (09:17):
for that first two, three, four years into recovery,
I would say I had very littlehope that we would be doing
something together, very littlehope that we'd be doing ministry
together or in the way that,right, it was really this giant
question mark for many yearswhich was really really painful,

(09:40):
because a big part of when Ithink I mean I was I had a very
different path.
When we met, I was headed to lawschool nine hours away from
Matthew, right Like verydifferent trajectory, and a lot
of what pulled us together soquickly was a sense that God was
calling us to do somethingtogether.

(10:01):
And so, all of a sudden, thewhole purpose of us even being
together felt like it wasshattered because it was
impossible anymore.
And so there was kind of a both, a personal identity crisis, a
relational identity crisis,right, like who are we?
Why are we even together?
What is going to happen?
And so there's many, many yearsof that, and that was really

(10:23):
hard and really painful and wecouldn't, honestly, like I
couldn't imagine what that wouldlook like.
I knew I still wanted it, but Ihad no idea what, how it could
happen, what it would look like,and it was a very organic
process that God used to kind ofpull us back together and start
to create this vision again.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
And I think one of the keys for us.
People have asked us like what,what is some of the things that
like really mattered and Ithink early on we didn't worry
as much about the vision, wejust worried about the healing
side of it and we knew we eachneeded to heal individually.
You know I knew I needed toheal for whatever was driving
this just manifestation that wasjust so far from me in terms of

(11:07):
sexually acting out and what wehad learned previously in our
work around relationships andkind of self understanding and
awareness.
That was so helpful because Ikind of took that template and
went OK, well, if this workedwith anger and with defensivism
and kind of wanting to shut downin conversations, I bet it's
going to work as well.
Whenism and kind of wanting toshut down in conversations, I
bet it's going to work as wellwhen it comes to me wanting to

(11:28):
numb out and to run away and tokind of stuff my problems and so
, and so it's really what I hadto do early on was just dive
into that personal recovery, Ithink, with a sense of we will
figure out the relationshipstuff when we're ready, and
Joanna kind of did the same.
Joanna really dove in tounderstanding betrayal,

(11:50):
understanding betrayal, traumaand kind of what was happening
to her and why she was kind ofresponding the way she was.
And so those kind ofwillingness to kind of be in our
own spaces in some ways, kindof trusting that God would
figure out the kind of messymiddle.
It helped us a lot becausethose two, you know, a couple of

(12:11):
years later, when we started tomake some progress, when we
started to feel that kind ofsense of like, okay, I think
we're out of the woods, I thinkwe're doing pretty well, then we
were able to kind of reenterthat conversation about what
that's going to be, and it'strue when you're in those
individual silos a little bitmore, because it can kind of be
like are we going to be hereforever?

Speaker 3 (12:31):
What's next?
Or how do we start putting thepieces together?
And that's honestly, a big partof, I think, why we're doing
what we're doing is because wedidn't have a very clear roadmap
of what recovery as a couplelooks like through this journey,
right?
What's the next step?
What's the next step?
What's the end goal?
What's possible?
Right, we didn't have any ofthose answers.

(12:51):
And so, as we went through ourown journey, as we did
professional training, as westarted collaborating with our
good friend and colleague, danDrake on this model that we now
use with our clients theintimacy pyramid.
It's because it reallydescribes our experience in our
journey as well, and we knew, ifwe would have had this at the

(13:11):
beginning, it would have felt alot more, a lot easier, right, a
lot more doable.
And so we actually have aframework we now use with
couples to help them understandwhat this journey is going to be
like.
Right, that there's going to bemore individual work in the
beginning, that they don't needto worry about that purpose as a
couple quite yet that comes inthe last stage.

(13:33):
As they get to that intimacyplace.
That's when they startvisioning purpose together again
.
But that can sometimes takeyears to get to, and that's okay
, but it doesn't mean that it'slost forever, yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah, that's really good.
I love that Because I thinkthat there's there is an element
of what, what remains of us andand what needs to be let go,
that we, that we, you know,quote unquote were the ways that
we lived before and it soundslike you guys really it's kind
of a hard fought journey andthank you for that, cause I

(14:06):
didn't want to give theimpression of like, yeah, and
then we, you know, on a Tuesdaywe made the trail and on
Wednesday we were back toministry.
Yeah, we figured it out.
I wanted, I wanted, matthew, Iheard you say in another podcast
and I want to dig into thisjust and this is just kind of
I'm actually thinking of ofpeople, as I asked this
specifically but one of thethings you talked about was how

(14:27):
important it was for you inrecovery to be all in and, um,
what is what did that mean foryou to be to be all in, like, um
, I think about so many guys,married guys, who would say
stuff like you know, I just wantthings to go back the way they
were.
Um, why won't you forgive methings to go back the way they
were?
Why won't she forgive me?
Blah, blah, blah.
Like you know, fair, fairquestions, understandable, very
common questions.
But but for you, like, wheredid you?

Speaker 2 (14:54):
where did that come from for you and what did it
mean to be all in?
Yeah, I mean, I think in someways what helped me was was was
taking a really sober and I usethat that word specifically kind
of look at the spectrum andkind of the weight of what my
kind of sexual history and lifehad really kind of done in terms
of its impact on me and itsnegative impact specifically.

(15:19):
That's called a full disclosureand 12 steps.
They call it a first step andthe idea is that I really want
to uncover and lay outeverything that's happened and
been affected by these choices,because until I do that I really
don't understand what I'mworking with.
And one of the things thathelped me was to see how far I

(15:42):
had kind of moved from my corevalues to the way I was living,
both before Joanna in ourrelationship, right towards her,
towards our marriage, like itwas just night and day.
The things that I thought ofmyself as a person kind of kind,
considerate, loving, you know,pornography, lying, this

(16:04):
destructive sexuality was as farfrom those as I could get.
And it was that vision of howfar I was that I think really
motivated me to just be likeI've got is I have to be done
and I have to be done with thisfor me.
And, like I said, I think thatone of the mistakes that I see a
lot of guys make and I coach alot of guys and it makes sense

(16:27):
but they think, okay, I've gotto fix everything.
I did that.
They think that's what recoveryis, that it's kind of like
recovery is penance.
I'm going to pay for everythingI did where I think I was
blessed to realize that recoveryis salvation.
Right, it is God's way ofsaving me from the kind of the
hell that I'm living, and it'sfor me first.

(16:50):
And that's okay, because once Ican realign with those core
values, I'm going to naturallycare for the people and
relationships in my life.
And that's what I see.
I mean I've worked with so manyguys who are good guys.
They have a heart for people,they care, they're actually
naturally empathetic and loving.
They just have moved away fromtheir true self that God made

(17:14):
them to be, and so if recoverycan bring them back to that,
then they get to kind of be that, and so when that was laid out
in front of me, it was an easychoice.
There was no kind of like, well,I guess I'll keep this.
And maybe you know I don't wantto give up my phone or I don't
want to.
I was like, whatever it takes,right, if I have to, if I have

(17:36):
to live in a, in a black bubblethe rest of my life, but I get
everything I get to be who I'mgoing to be, then that's great,
you know, and recovery taught meI didn't have to.
But I think it was thatwillingness.
But I think that willingness ishard to manifest when you don't
know what you're dealing with.
A lot of people with withbroken sexual past, they don't

(17:59):
want to talk about it, right, wedon't want to think about it,
we don't want to look at it, wewant to stay.
Our shame wants to keep us fromit, but that's actually what
keeps us stuck.
And so, um, for me that wasjust such a key.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
Man, I love that.
That's what?
Yeah, you had enough nuggets inthere, gold nuggets that like
would be worth unpacking more.
I'll leave that to another one,but I'm so glad I asked the
question though, because I Ilove the distinction between
recovery for you versus recoveryfor, um, even even for us, you

(18:32):
know.
And then and then thedistinction between like this is
to get back to the who I reallyam, who God's wired me to be,
what's really important to me,versus the kind of penance I'm.
I'm doing for God or for mywife or for you, know, whatever,
like um, what I mean.
You guys just kind of exude, Ithink, like a hope for the
future, like a vision for likewhere we can go, and I think

(18:54):
that's um.
Yeah, I think that's a strengththat you bring to this whole
realm of of ministry andrecovery, because it is so easy
to kind of go like.
I don't know, it feels likewe're looking at like a, a
bombed out city, and I guesswe're just got to make do, as
opposed to like let's, let'sthink about what we're going to
build Um yeah.
Yeah, so thank you for that.

(19:14):
Okay, I look forward to hearingmore.
Okay, so, um, joanna, youmentioned the, the intimacy
pyramid, and I'm going to justentrust you guys to kind of
bring as much or as little ofthat as you can in the time
we've got.
But, um and and so this is acompletely unfair question, but
I've prepped you for it.
So, because I know that so many, so many couples husbands and
wives alike wonder about, like,how, how do we?

(19:37):
There's been betrayal in ourmarriage, there's been broken
trust I don't feel safe to givemyself, or I feel too ashamed to
feel like I'm a good gift togive to my spouse, for, for
either of the spouses, of thespouses, uh, how are we ever
going to get to marital intimacy?
Sexual intimacy, that is, uh,specifically sexual intimacy,

(20:04):
that is, um, it's actually notjust um, it's not carrying some
of the brokenness or shame thatthat would seem to be a natural
fallout from this, and thatdoesn't go back to the secrecy
or whatever it was that we hadbefore.
Um, I know couples who, uh, aswe're walking together through
their recovery, they continue tobe have sex and it almost feels
like gosh, it sounds like itfeels like that's like a little
too quickly.
Like like, how are you havingsex when there are all these

(20:27):
other issues still going on andother couples who sex has been
off the table for years?
So yeah, I just love to kind oftoss, toss up that easy, easy
question your way and ask foryour wisdom and what you have to
say about that.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Yeah, so I think you know when.
Oftentimes, when we're teaching, talking about sexual intimacy,
we use the same framework, theintimacy pyramid, which is
really about building a healthy,holistic intimacy in our
relationship.
And what's beautiful is this isthe framework we use for all
couples, whether they've beenthrough betrayal or not, because

(21:01):
it was built from what we'velearned by working through the
couples who had the worst thingyou can imagine happen in their
relationship going from thatplace to a thriving intimacy and
so going okay if that works forthem.
this works for every couple, andso starting at the base of that
pyramid is honesty.
You have to start with beinghonest, being self-aware, being

(21:25):
open and transparent in therelationship.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, and to think about that in terms of kind of
sexual approach.
One of the things when we'reguiding a couple is we'll say,
like you need to be honest aboutyour sexual history like and
for both partners, and you needto be honest about your sexual
history outside of therelationship and inside of the
relationship, which usuallymeans you need to be aware of it
.
A lot of people don't want totalk about sex at all.

(21:50):
They don't want to talk abouttheir body, they don't want to
talk about their history.
But when you don't know that,you can't move forward.
I recognize that pornography wasshaping me sexually around a
certain perspective, and one ofthe main perspectives around
pornography is that it isself-focused.
It is about my pleasure, myenjoyment right, my orgasm.

(22:12):
It is all about what I'm goingto get out of it, and that is
shaping how I view sex, and so,whether I want it to or not,
that's going to inform how Iengage our relationship, and so
if I'm going to do anythingabout that, I got to get honest
about that first.
We've got to talk about that.
We've got to talk about oursexual past.
Maybe there was avoidance rightwhich took place in our

(22:35):
relationship.
My shame would often keep mefrom Joanna.
It would kind of put a wall upand I would kind of pull away
from her when she would try topursue intimacy which is really
painful for her, and so we hadto name that and kind of talk
about that.
Other couples it might looklike pressure.
Right, did I put pressure onthe other person to kind of act

(22:55):
sexually in a certain way and sowe can't get anywhere if we
can't get honest?

Speaker 3 (23:00):
And then, after honesty, once we understand kind
of our unhealthy dysfunctionalways patterns emotionally and
sexually, we move into thesafety level, which is where we
really start re-imagining thosepatterns and thinking about what
would a healthy interactionlook like, moving forward.
That's oftentimes kind of theopposite of maybe those

(23:21):
unhealthy interactions.
And so again, we don't just dothat in our relationship
emotionally, but we think aboutthose sexual patterns and think
about okay, if sex was a placewhere selfishness was brought in
, how do we express it as agenerosity to one another?
Right, what does it look liketo be selfless in our sexual

(23:42):
expression with one another?

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah, for many partners we'll hear that
sometimes they'll use sex to tryto kind of maybe manage the
addiction or the acting out oftheir spouse, and so that safety
level for them is learning toset boundaries that say, hey,
I'm not the caretaker, right,I'm not the sexual caretaker of
my spouse, right, they areresponsible for themselves, I

(24:04):
will be responsible for myself.
That's what will allow us towork together as a team, and
it's from that safety level thatwe start to kind of re-engage
trust.
Right, we talk about, okay,what does it look like to begin
to be a couple who trusts eachother and operates in that

(24:24):
fashion, which for us reallymeans like we're kind of on the
same level?
Right, we both know that we'reconstructively putting into the
relationship.
But now we have to figure outhow to build that future
together.
It's not just one of ours todecide.
We're not just kind oftransactional with each other.
Right, we're actuallycollaborative, we're working

(24:45):
together, we're committed tokind of a new future.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, and so that stage, couples partners might be
actually creating almost like asexual reintegration plan
together.
What do we want, what are ourgoals, our values around this
area of our relationship, andhow do we begin to take steps to
live into that?

Speaker 2 (25:03):
And from.
All right, let me yeah, goahead.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Well, let me stop you right there, because I can hear
people going, like what are youtalking about?
Like what a vision for oursexual relationship?
Or use the word generosity,like, like how, what does that
look like?
Because so many of somethinglike whether whether porn's been
a part of it or not, like we'vegrown up in a sexualized
culture, that, like where do yousee that?

(25:26):
Where's it?
So can you just give it, canyou at the at the risk of
derailing the conversation toomuch like what's an example of,
like some things that couplesmight say, like this is what we
want to be a part of our, of oursex relationship, just to give
a little vision or concretenessto what people might be asking.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
I mean, I think part of it is is recognizing that
that sex is, is something that'sthat that reflects our
connection.
It's not a need that I'm tryingto get out of the relationship
and so no one dies because theydon't have sex there.
We are still waiting for thatcase to come across any doctor's

(26:04):
office and if anyone, if anyonecan find that case, please send
it to us.
But we know that it's not aneed, it's a gift, and it's a
gift given that reflects who weare.
And so part of building asexual vision is thinking about
well, who are we as a couple?
What kind of couple are we?
And that's made up of who weare individually.

(26:26):
Like we said, that recoveryphase is really about relearning
to kind of find ourself.
Who is it that I am?
Who has God made me to be?
That's when I get to thinkabout what does it look like for
me to give that into our sexualexperience, like you said,
because the world, the kind ofsexual world that's out there,

(26:47):
is that the sexual experience issupposed to give something to
me, and so I learned to thinkabout myself, and so for me, I'm
very service oriented, right, Ilike to, I like to serve as one
of my love languages.
I like to be sacrificial, andso that plays out in our sexual
experiences and the way we buildour kind of life together is

(27:08):
thinking about this is the wayGod has made me.
How might that look?

Speaker 3 (27:13):
And it starts to reframe sexual narratives and
expectations that maybe haven'tbeen named.
And again, hopefully some ofthat has started in that honesty
stage, right as we're gainingawareness of our own story but
thinking about our values andour goals around sexuality, a
lot of us have embedded thesexual narrative of this is what

(27:33):
sex looks like and the goal isperhaps orgasm.
Maybe it's mutual orgasm, rightby going.
Is that really the goal?
Or is it mutual connection,intimacy, experiencing
satisfaction, right Like, likewhat is the heart of the goal?
And then what does that thenmean about what that sexual

(27:54):
experience needs to look like,or what it doesn't need to look
like for us to reach that goaltogether?

Speaker 2 (27:59):
And I think this is why this is really important,
especially for Christians.
So the kind of typical modelthat people understand sex,
which is kind of we engage, weget excited, right, there is
climax, right and so, and thenthe kind of act in that model of
sexual engagement was createdaround the 50s by Masters and

(28:19):
Johnson and it was put togetherby a bunch of scientists, male
scientists, who brought incouples, had them, had them have
intercourse in front of thescientists while they took notes
right, and then they wrote,okay, this is the sexual
experience, while they tooknotes, right, and then they
wrote, okay, this is the sexualexperience right and so and we
know that it's not right and Ithink so many Christians are

(28:41):
thinking like oh okay, I knowwhat the sexual experience is
because that's been passed downculturally to me, where that's
not scriptural right, that's notbiblical, and we also know it's
not physical.
We've learned so much more aboutthe sexual experience but we
have these kind of tropes andideas that are stuck in our kind
of psyche and we don't realizewe're bringing them into the

(29:02):
bedroom and then we don'trealize that they are usually
the reason that we're notconnecting sexually and I think
that's the key is so manycouples are struggling to
connect sexually, not becausethey're not good fits right.
God has fit them together,that's what we know.
But it's that these bad kind ofideas, and that's, like I said,
without even pornographyinvolved in the kind of broken

(29:24):
sexuality that people bring in,we're still having a hard time
connecting, and so so oftentimesin that plan they're making
there's some sexual re-educationaround his healthy sexuality
right and fighting what that istogether, yeah.
And so that's without that.
We find people are doing whatthey did before, which is so

(29:45):
many couples they get marriedand they have sex and they think
that having sex will help themfigure it out, which we know
that's not actually the way itworks, right?
We need the knowledge.
Then we start to engage thepractice, right, and then we
kind of read and then we go backand we reflect and say, hey,
how is that working?

(30:06):
And so one of the things we'rehaving couples do in that trust
stage is usually just sometimesbeginning with simple touch
exercises, right, they mayreally just begin with a touch
exercise and reflecting on whatdid my body feel?
What were the thoughts that Ihad?
Were there any insecurities orfears that came up for me?

(30:26):
Because those are the kind ofthings that will keep a couple
from truly connecting, whichwill then kind of hamper their
sexual experience really being afull part of their intimacy.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
Wow, so good you guys .
Oh, my gosh, like, okay, I'mgoing to refrain from commenting
because I want to hear morefrom you, but just even what
you've shared so far, I hopelisteners, if you, if you're not
walking away, going like, oh,that was really really great.
Like just rewind and listen tosome of it again, because I,
because I think it is so new forso many of us, and I think, um,

(31:01):
uh, I mean the, the masters andJohnson stuff, and there's so
much more in the forties,fifties and sixties that came
out there that um, thatcompletely neglect the, that
personal in the bedroom,heartfelt connection between
husband and wife, who really dodeeply want to connect, um, and
so what a terrible place to kindof um, I mean just like

(31:23):
truncate the, the experiencethat that is actually there,
there for us.
Okay, so, so we've gotten tosafety, um, we begin begun to um
or trust.
I think you should talk abouttrust, yeah, um, next up in your
pyramid is, I noticed,vulnerability, which I think
most people going like have.
That sounds like you alreadyhit that one.
Like, so unpack that a littlemore.

(31:45):
Like, what do you mean byvulnerability at this point?

Speaker 3 (31:48):
vulnerability is where you're pushing in even
deeper.
You're getting to those placesthat maybe haven't fully healed
yet, and especially especially,I think, for partners who have
experienced betrayal.
This whole process is extremelyvulnerable and so right,
letting someone back into theseareas where I, you know the

(32:08):
definition of vulnerability is,I'm opening myself up to attack,
right, and so it's like wait.
I've been hurt, I've beenattacked before.
Why would I ever do that again?
And so it really is a courageousstep for partners to step back
in Now in this level ofvulnerability.
They may notice their bodyresisting a lot because they

(32:31):
know there's a possibility thatI'm hurt and so, even physically
, their body can resist, cantense up, triggers can happen,
intrusive thoughts that maybethey haven't experienced for a
while, because a lot of times,as safety and trust are being
built, I'm starting to feelhealed from some of those things
.
But as we vulnerably startpushing in physically, some of

(32:52):
that can come back, and so wealways tell partners Take it
slow, trust your gut, and it'sokay if it feels like you're
going backwards at times,because that is a part of the
process, and we really want toprepare couples for how to
handle those intimate,vulnerable moments when they're
potentially in some awkwardpositions together and something

(33:15):
comes up.
How do you handle that?
It can feel really discouraging, and so having them know this
is a normal part of the processand how you handle those moments
can actually build deeperintimacy and connection when
you're prepared for it.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, and it is, and we recognize there's
vulnerability, but there's kindof individual vulnerability.
What this stage reallyrepresents is is the couple is
recognizing we've, we've, we'vecome to kind of a precipice.
We've, we've survived.
Now are we going to thrive, andto thrive we're going to have

(33:50):
to take some risks.
We're going to have to do somethings that our fears are going
to want to take over Potentially.
I know for me my shame wantedto take over.
One of the big fears that I hadwas that I would never be able
to kind of really fully engagemy sexual self again.
I thought that I had been lostbecause of my past, because of

(34:12):
everything that I had watchedand engaged in, that there was
really no future for Joanna andI where I was fully present and
fully engaged and kind of fullymyself and vulnerability was
kind of stepping back into thosekind of situations and testing
the waters to see where I was inmy kind of own personal

(34:34):
recovery and journey.
I'm so glad that I did, becauseI think I started to realize
like God had really healed somuch in my heart, like I felt
like I could be myself withoutthis sense of this kind of
broken sexuality kind of pouringin.
I know that it's there right.
I know that the choices and thethings that I've encountered

(34:55):
they're a part of kind of mybrain and my history and there's
some habits there.
But ultimately God has donesuch an amazing work.
He's really allowed me to befully myself.
But that felt scary.
There was a lot of fear thatthat was not going to be
possible, and so we had to kindof take that slow, like I said,

(35:15):
and that's at the same timeJoanna was having some of those
fears about who we were going tobe right, what this was going
to be like, and without that,couples really keep themselves
from what I think what God wantsthem to have, and we get it.
And so there is a huge shiftwhen we get into vulnerability.
Good news is that if you'rewilling to do it, if you have

(35:43):
some usually some, some kind ofhelpful guides, some folks who
know you know either can guideyou or support.
If you've got really reallygood support, both personally
and as a couple, you can.
You can get through thisvulnerability process into
intimacy, which is when you hearwe talk about intimacy as it's
the place.
When you're, when yourrelationship is giving life, we
talk about intimacy as it's theplace when your relationship is
giving life.
We talk about intimacy asgenerative.

(36:04):
It generates life, right, thatgenerosity from before is now
paying dividends.
It's creating the connectionand the kind of life that we get
in intimate connection withother people.
But it's also what we find isintimacy kind of gives life to
other people.
We all know what it's like tobe around a person or a couple

(36:25):
who's really thriving.
They kind of are infectious.
Right, you like?
You're like this feels good,right, I want more of this, and
so couples who can push throughthose hard places and
invulnerability get toexperience some of the joys of
intimacy and invulnerability,get to experience some of the
joys of intimacy.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
And when we describe intimacy in our book, I love the
three words we use which isdescribing both holistic
intimacy but I think it works sowell, especially for that
sexual connection and intimacythings you want to incorporate
passion, purpose and play.
And so as couples get to thatplace of intimacy at the top of
that pyramid, even sexually,it's a place where they get to
be fully uninhibited with oneanother.

(37:06):
Right, the shame is gone.
We've dealt with that in someof the lower levels, right, and
we have a deep sense of bothpurpose in our sexuality
together, our connection as acouple God has brought us
together for a reason.
Bless this connection, thisrelationship for a reason, for a
purpose, and a part of oursexual experience is expressing

(37:28):
that.
But we also get to be playful,we get to be joyful, we get to
enjoy that experience together.
One of the definitions of playis that it's purposeless and so
we kind of use that veryintentionally around, like it's
also just to be in that momentwith one another without
worrying about producingsomething or an outcome or

(37:50):
anything like that at the sametime.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah, Wow, oh, you guys, this is so, so good.
I want to hear more.
Okay, so, a couple of wordscome to mind as you're talking.
One is hope.
I want to hear more.
What?
Um?
Okay, so, um, a couple of wordscome to mind as you're talking.
One is is um hope?
I mentioned that before.
You guys, the way you talkexudes such hope.
There's so much more, there'sso much possibility out there.
Uh, and I.

(38:13):
And the other is courage,because I think there's like I'm
struck by, especially as you'retalking about re?
Um, in the vulnerability aspectof we've done all this work and
now we are actually beginning toengage sexually with each other
, and there we find there'sstill shame or there's.
I'm being triggered and havingold thoughts, and so, instead of

(38:35):
saying like, well, we'realready here, we're going to be
courageous to say let's facethese things together, let me
face these things on my own, letme share them with you, like
such courage to say we're goingto hold on to hope and not just
kind of, you know, stick a flagin this one moment, say it's all
going to happen here, um, butwe're going to, we're going to

(38:56):
continue to do hard worktogether so that we can um, so
we get to that place of of playum naked and unashamed wow
exactly so good, okay, and Iknow that was my, you know, like
just my quick reflection as I'mlistening to you guys.
Um, I would love for people tobe able to find more about what
you're doing.
You mentioned your book.

(39:16):
Just share, share a bit morefor those who want to, who are
listening, listening like me,going like well, I got to hear
more, so where can they go?
What would you recommend?

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yeah, I mean, the easiest place to find us is
rabsmithteamcom.
We're the only rabsmiths in thewhole world, so we've made it
very simple.
Um, uh, we even have uh, welove to give away free resources
because we just, we want toequip couples.
We have a free resource.
So if you go to Rabsmith teamdot com, slash free, you can
sign up for one of our freeresources.

(39:45):
It's actually just a.
It's a daily check in forcouples that we created to drive
some of the things that youwere talking about, to drive a
sense of hope, to drive a senseof kind of thankfulness, and so
really it's about recognizingwho we are together.
Just on those little spaces,because we've talked about a lot

(40:06):
in 40 minutes and I wish theprocess took 40 minutes and so
we recognize that a lot of thishappens and continues to happen,
because one of the things werealized, when we kind of felt
like we got to intimacy we werelike, oh crap, what do we do now
?
But we realized there was justmore right.

(40:26):
We went back to honesty and wecontinue to work our way through
the process regularly, justkind of building and refining,
and so that's a great way toconnect with us.
One thing we want to share thatwe're super excited about so we
have always wanted to gatherrecovery couples, especially
those who've kind of we wouldsay they're like made it or feel

(40:48):
like they're out of the woodsand they feel like they've
rebuilt something, because wethink they are just like living
miracles.
We recognize what God did in ourlife to get us where we're at,
and so we created an event.
It's coming up this Novemberand it's called the Renewing Us
Retreat and it's that we'regoing to Colorado, it's going to

(41:09):
be beautiful and it's all aboutgathering couples in recovery
who want to celebrate, just kindof be inspired, be encouraged,
but also just get away.
To be inspired, be encouragedbut also just get away, have fun
, relax in a safe space.
We went to a lot of marriageretreats that didn't necessarily
understand sexual addiction andbetrayal, and sometimes the

(41:30):
content didn't feel like itnecessarily spoke to us, and so
we wanted to create somethingthat was specifically for
recovery couples.
So that's something we'd lovefor folks to check out.
Maybe come join us in Colorado.

Speaker 3 (41:41):
And if people are interested in learning more
about that framework, theintimacy pyramid.
Our book is on Amazon BuildingTrue Intimacy, and so that's a
great place to find moreinformation about that as well.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
Great, great, and we'll have links to all those in
the show notes.
Guys, thank you so much forwhat you're doing for couples.
Thank you for um.
Your really the the courage of,maybe even especially those
first three, four years um to toface this stuff and to dig in,
to be all in um.
I can see from this distance atleast just some of the fruit as

(42:13):
you guys are with each other inthat space and the um the
freedom you seem to have witheach other, and the fruit um
that you're you're giving toother couples other, and the
fruit um that you're you'regiving to other couples too.
So thank you for your your goodwork.
So, so glad to be in this areaof ministry with people like you
.
So God bless you.
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