January 14, 2025 • 23 mins
Welcome back to part two of our four-part series on "Pursuing Goodness" in 2025! In today's episode, hosts Aaron Tagert and James Craig dive further into the topics of grief and lament. Contrary to popular belief, these emotions can be a catalysts for healing and growth. Aaron and James discuss personal experiences, the importance of acknowledging sorrow, and share insights on how grieving well can lead to genuine comfort and maturity. Join us as we explore how to embrace these challenging emotions to start the new year with a journey toward wholeness.
Resources:
Grieving the Seasons of Our Lives - Ron Walborn
Lament Psalm 3 (from Soul Shepherding Ministries)
The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly (from Awaken 360)
Psalms in a Month
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of Becoming
Whole.
This is part two of theconversation about pursuing
goodness by leaning into griefand lament.
If you haven't listened to thefirst part of last week, we
encourage you to go back andlisten to that before you tune
into today.
Ready to continue theconversation, let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
One of the other things that that guy, dr Ron
Walburn, says is that he's knownfor speaking let's dive in that
.
You do them again If we don'thave a theology of grief or
lament when people don't gethealed.
(00:47):
I mean, he shares a story inhis talk about a pastor who
prayed for years and had a wholecommunity praying for his wife,
but his wife still passed away.
Yet the same pastor would seepeople healed on a somewhat
regular basis when he prayed forthat.
There's incredible grief inthat.
And so if he doesn't grievethat, he doesn't grieve that
(01:10):
reality that, whatever reasonsthat God has like not everyone's
healed.
On this side of heaven we'renot yet in the fullness, the
absolute fullness, of thekingdom, the new heavens and new
earth.
If we don't develop that kindof theology of grief, we can't
get that far.
In a lot of things we becomehardened because we don't know
how to deal with yeah, what theloss or the things not happening
(01:35):
that we know god can do yeah,so good.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, jesus was no stranger to to grief and lament,
as we've kind of alluded to alittle bit, and there are some
things I think that we canreally learn from him when we
look at how he didn't shy awayfrom, from grief and lament and
so immediately, most peopleprobably think about jesus
(02:01):
weeping.
And you know, especially withthe death of Lazarus or his good
buddy in the chosen, as theysaid, laz.
I love that, just the you knowthe humanity side of calling,
you know a friend, a nickname,but you know Lazarus dies and he
is deeply moved at how that'saffecting not just him and his
friendship with Lazarus, butMary and Martha and the
(02:24):
disciples and all the friends.
Like he sees, like he'sexperiencing it and he has moved
to tears.
I think he he weeps when Johnthe Baptist dies and and you
know I don't we don't read thatnecessarily, but Jesus being the
feeler that he was, as he, youknow, withdraws to a desolate
(02:47):
place on a boat to be by himselfcan only imagine that he is
crying out.
You know, tears of losing hisdear cousin I mean the one that
leapt in Elizabeth's womb whenhe was just near right, so you
know that and then also, whenhe's in the garden and he has
(03:09):
this, as we later read, the joyset before him but, like his
father's plan and knowing whatwas at stake and what he needed
to do and his role in that, andthat was hard to to accept,
right and and and he, he'scrying in the garden, you know,
(03:29):
and and you know, asks the Lordto take this from him, if, if
that be as well, and the Lorddoesn't take that cup.
We know that, and.
But yet there's grief in that.
There's a reality of the pain,of the hard of the, of the loss,
right, he's going to, of thepain of the hard of the loss
he's going to lose his life, hisearthly life.
So we talk about grief in termsof loss, and so that hangs
(03:52):
before him.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I love that passage too, about Jesus, isaiah 53,
that famous passage.
It says he was a man of sorrowsor a man of suffering and
familiar with grief or familiarwith pain, and what an amazing
image of what our God is like.
He's someone who didn't have toenter, he didn't have to create
(04:16):
all this that turned into themess that it often is, but he
chose to, and he also chooses togrieve with those who grieve,
yeah, and he prays too in themidst of grief, you know, to
bring comfort.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And again, just his, his presence in these different
moments.
Right, he speaks into others,grief, and shows us really how,
how to do that with with oneanother.
He shares his grief with hisfriends, his disciples.
You know he doesn't hide it.
He does this, which reallyhighlights, I think, the need
(04:54):
for community and to be able togrieve together, showing, you
know, I mean we, we learn, youknow different, the different
experiences that we bring, thedifferent circumstances we've
been through.
Those are hard but those canalso offer hope and healing to
(05:14):
others and I think that's partof that right.
There's power and testimonybecause in the midst of someone
going through somethingdifficult, they can see how
someone's overcome or how theLord has met them and drawn near
and helped and had been presentwhen they're maybe not not
feeling that.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, dr Jim Wilder, who is the one who studied the
brain and its effect on ourspiritual formation for decades
now he talks about.
He defines joy as a sense ofI'm glad to be with you.
And what's amazing about thatdefinition which I do think
aligns with scripture is thatyou can have joy even when
you're crying in someone's armsbecause you're glad to be with
(05:56):
each other.
You can have joy even whenyou're angry, believe it or not.
Even angry at a person, you canstill be glad that they're
there, glad to be with them, andobviously that's an incredible
mark of maturity to be able toremain in joy in those really
painful emotions like sorrow oranger or shame.
But what an amazing image ofwhat the Christian community can
(06:20):
be.
And actually, when we'reexperiencing those really
negative emotions, in thecontext of joy, it's healing
what's way more painful to ourbrains.
The way God's designed us is toexperience tragedy without
another.
And so you're spot on, aaron,even from from a brain
perspective the way god'sdesigned us, he's designed us to
(06:43):
I mean paul says that carryeach other's burdens, to have
that joyful connection, evenwhen one person's up or another
person's down yeah, and there'seven some invitation in that and
some and some work.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I know, you know, because it's not easy, you know
we all have some work, you knowto do and and and to to really,
you know, press into that.
But it also makes me think thatyou know, if the importance of
community and grief, that ifwe're afraid to own our own
tears, that that we're going tobe scared of others, and anytime
(07:16):
that we see somebody who needsthat hug or needs some sort of
comfort, that we shy away fromthat because maybe we don't feel
like we've experienced that orwe've done that well.
And so there really is animportance to not only do it for
ourselves but to also, incommunity, be there for one
(07:38):
another.
And then, lastly, just Jesusalso points to the future in
grief.
So thinking again him at thetomb and speaking to Mary and
Martha that your brother willrise again.
And there's just something aboutthe current circumstance is
temporary.
There is hope and a future.
(07:59):
There is something more andsomething greater, and it's hard
to see that.
It's kind of like a sunset andyou've got all these beautiful
colors and you can see all thesethings, but when you're going
through grief it's like blackand white and you don't see all
of the beauty, you don't see allof the color.
But I love how he doesn't leaveus in this place of the hard
(08:22):
and the difficult but heactually speaks hope into the
future that those circumstancesare temporary.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, paul, I think, even says don't grieve, as those
who don't have hope Now I thinkagain in our context it often
doesn't know how to grieve atall we can be like it, basically
can shut down all sadness orgrief.
But I think what Paul's gettingat is that we do have this
profound hope that everythingsad will come untrue.
God is going to work even theseterrible things.
(08:57):
It doesn't mean we stop thesadness in the moment.
It doesn't mean that we shutthings down emotionally, but we
can still hold Again.
It's that idea of joy, likeGod's with us.
We can be glad to be with him.
He's glad to be with us even inour sadness, even in our sorrow
and ultimately, what he's mostglad about for Jesus, it says
(09:18):
that he went to the cross forthe joy set before him, because
he wanted to be fully reunitedwith us, and that's an
incredible hope, not only thathe's going to redeem everything
and he already has started butthat he's with us in that, and
that's what his incarnation thatwe just celebrated over
Christmas points to.
It's that he came in to be withus.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, and he will come again.
Amen, yes, amen yeah.
So let's shift to kind oftalking a little bit about how,
like, how do we begin?
How do we encourage someone tobegin the work of of grief and
lament?
What are some practical ways inin which those who are
listening can practice that work, or a couple of things that
(10:03):
come to mind for you.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, a couple of ideas here and feel free to
pause or go back.
We don't have time to get intoa ton of depth, but one of my
absolute favorite things to domost months of the year is to
read through the entire book ofPsalms.
They were split up by, Ibelieve, the Anglicans to have a
morning and an evening readingthat are relatively even, about
five minutes each.
(10:25):
You get through the entire 150Psalms every single month.
Why get into the Psalms?
Because they're full of therange of human emotion.
There's at least probably adozen that are just like, maybe
more, that are full of grief andlament, and there's actually
two that end with no hopewhatsoever.
And that's not because we'recalled to again be those who
(10:47):
grieve without hope, but it's toshow us like God sees us, like
this has been experienced before.
So this is a really importantway to grow our emotional life.
We are called to pray thePsalms, sing the Psalms.
Psalms are the most quoted bookin the New Testament, so if
you're not getting into thePsalms, such a great place to
(11:07):
start.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, you're missing something.
Yeah, mark, mark Vroga, whowrote Dark Clouds, deep Mercy,
actually identifies that one outof every three Psalms is a
limit.
So that's not necessarily likein a row or you know, like in
the first six psalms there's twoof them, but overall,
throughout the entire psalms,about one out of every three
(11:30):
psalms that you read is a lament, and so you just think about
again, like you said, those deepemotions, you know, and going
through that, I do the samething.
I like to go through the psalms, and so you just think about
again, like you said, those deepemotions, you know, and going
through that, I do the samething.
I like to go through the Psalms.
I do it slightly different.
We don't need to get into thedifferent ways of doing it, but
I think there is something aboutand that would actually be an
encouragement, a hugeencouragement in coaching that
(11:51):
I've shared with clients as well.
If they are stuck or don't knowhow to grieve or haven't
lamented, my encouragement is toget into the Psalms and to
begin to unlock some of thatemotion and those different
things.
So I think that's really good.
You can also practice writingyour own too, right, and again,
I think you know Mark wrote theMark Brogrip I hope I'm saying
(12:12):
his name right but he identifiesthat there are four kind of
elements, you know, when writingyour own.
So there's the turning to,there's the turn, and we turn to
God and we address him as we gointo prayer.
Sometimes that can be combinedwith complaint, which is the
next kind of step is to bringour complaints, you know, to
(12:33):
identify, in specific language,you know, and to not be afraid
to be blunt, like God can takeit.
He wants it all, like he wantsus to pour out our hearts before
him and we see that in thePsalms especially to bring our
pain, injustices, you know, andthose types of things.
And then the third.
The third step is to ask, tospecifically call on God to act
(12:55):
in a helpful manner that fitshis character and resolves the
complaint.
And lastly is to choose totrust, affirm that God is worthy
and that he can be trusted andpraised, despite of where we're
at in the circumstance, if we'veexperienced kind of coming
through that or not, that we canstill choose to trust him.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, we actually will throw another resource in
the show notes, based on Psalm 3, I believe, writing your own
Psalm Lament from SoulShepherding just another great
resource, similar set of steps,but it just kind of outlines the
Psalm and then it takes youthrough and it seems really
simple and for some people itmight feel like I really need to
(13:38):
sit here and kind of fill inthe blank, but I can't tell you
how helpful it's been for manypeople to pour out in that way,
have a little bit of structure,because, again, grief is not a
super structurable thing overall, but when we're trying to make
some outlets, when we're tryingto open up the smokestack to let
(13:59):
out some steam or whatever theright term would be, things like
this can be really, reallyhelpful.
I think.
Similarly, we can get ourbodies involved.
We can actually express theemotions bodily.
We can be shouting with God,encouraging you not to shout at
other people in your anger orsorrow, but God, like Aaron just
said, can totally take it, andsome of the Psalms are like
(14:23):
where are you, god?
God, you're asleep.
They'll say things like that.
It's like wait.
That's not theologicallyaccurate.
That's not the point of whatthe psalms are sometimes
portraying.
They're showing that a deeperthing, that they can get all of
it out to god.
So you can engage your body.
You could, you know, cry, youcould listen to certain kind of
music with your ears that helpyou get into some of the greed
(14:43):
for lament In scripture.
Actually, they use their body alot for this.
They would get in sackcloth andcover themselves in ashes.
What a crazy image if youreally think of it.
Sackcloth, I believe, was thisreally itchy, kind of painful to
put on or wear, I guess,garment, and so you're literally
feeling the pain of thediscomfort in that way to help
(15:07):
your mind breathe, and you'recovered in ashes.
You know the darkness ofeverything.
Ultimately, on this side of thenew heavens, new earth, ends up
in ashes.
You know, we, we go back todust, right, that's what
scripture says, and so these arevisceral reminders of the grief
that people are going through,and they in Jewish culture, and
(15:29):
they would sometimes, I believethey would grieve for like a
lost spouse for an entire year.
Can you imagine that in ourculture Usually it's like, okay,
we might let maybe a half anhour here or there, with the
death of a family member, orsomething like that.
Can you imagine a widow inclear grief and clear, choosing
to lament for an entire year,but again, that allowed them to
(15:52):
get out so much of what neededto be gotten out of their system
, so to speak, that they couldthen move forward with greater
joy and hope and other things.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, I mean, look at our culture, I think we get
like three days or something youknow most workplaces to, you
know bereavement and to kind ofenter into that, and it's not
like it stops after three days,right, like that continues on.
And so there's something youknow about just continuing to
allow that process, that griefprocess it really is a process
(16:24):
you know to to play itself out,to be present.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
In addition to these ideas with God that you can kind
of do on your own, andcommunity is so important here.
Paul, most of scripture iswritten with you plural y'all in
mind.
And so Paul says things likerejoice with those who rejoice
and mourn with those who mournRomans 12, 15.
So there's this actual kind ofcommand to get into the mourning
(16:51):
with people.
It doesn't say fix those whomourn.
It doesn't say give them aneasy Bible verse to cover over
their mourning.
It says mourn with those whomourn, get in that sackcloth and
ashes, wear the black clothes,whatever you know each cultural
expression was.
And I think that this is so key, aaron, because again, this is
how our brains are designed.
(17:11):
There's this idea again fromJim Wilder.
They call it VCR.
Jim Wilder and Marcus WarnerValidate, comfort, repattern.
Validate means you're justsimply validating someone's
emotions.
Isn't that what most of us wantwhen we're feeling stuff?
If we jump right into comfortwhich obviously is ultimately we
want to be comforted we mightkind of cover over what needs to
(17:35):
be let out right, we might kindof stop it short.
But we need to start with thatvalidation.
So if people are coming to usin grief, we can validate their
grief.
It doesn't mean you'revalidating their response to the
grief.
You know someone's response orcertain behaviors or whatever.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
We're just saying validatinghow they're feeling and then, at
the appropriate time, you canbring in the comfort.
(17:57):
It might be a a differentperspective, it might be certain
kind of prayer or things likethat, but having that order
re-patterns the person or, ifwe're receiving it ourselves, it
re-patterns us to know that wecan actually grieve in a
holistic and full way and thatthose who grieve again, like you
said earlier, will be comforted.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, gosh, I Gosh, I love that man, it's so good.
Well, as we, as we wrap this up, james, you know one thing that
I think about.
You know, in helping you knowwhat is helpful, how does
somebody do this?
You know an encouragement, youknow that that immediately comes
to mind would be to bring bringthat into a coaching session,
(18:40):
one-to-one coaching that weoffer here at Regen, or to not
go alone and to begin to reallypress into that and again, this
idea that there is goodness inthe grief and lament, and
pursuing that and how that canbe good and what that can unlock
(19:03):
, I think, for you as anindividual who is going through
a time of grief and lament, andJames, I want to give you the
last word and just ask you alsoto close us out in prayer.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Well, aaron, I actually I want you to pray for
us, man, because you're someonewho I see embody this, and I'd
love for you to actually justpray, especially for the men
listening at the very end, justthat we could release more tears
and, you know, for the womenlistening that we could enter
into that grief as we reallyneed.
But I will say real quick thatone of my favorite and most
(19:39):
important exercises I've everdone on this again happens to
come from this module of Awakenthat we're starting today.
We call it the good, the bad,the ugly.
It's just simply a lifeinventory the good, the bad and
the ugly.
I guess in this case the uglyis like things I've done, the
baddest things that have maybebeen done to me.
But what a way to kind of takea lifelong inventory, and that's
(20:01):
something I bring into coachingas well, just like you
mentioned, as I get a phone call.
Let me just say that again.
There you go.
Yeah, so the good, the bad andthe ugly.
This can be something that webring into coaching, but just
taking a life inventory of whatwe've been through to kind of
get this overview, we'll putthat in the notes as well, the
show notes.
But as we close, I just want toread this passage from Isaiah 65
(20:25):
about the hope that we do have.
This is verse 17 through 19 andthen verse 25.
See, I will create a newheavens and a new earth.
The former things will not beremembered, nor will they come
to mind.
But be glad and rejoice foreverin what I will create, for I
will create.
I will create jerusalem to be adelight and its people a joy.
(20:49):
I will rejoice over jerusalemand take delight in my people.
The sound of weeping and cryingwill be heard in it.
No more.
The wolf and the lamb will feedtogether and the lion will eat
straw like the ox, and dust willbe the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nordestroy.
On all my holy mountain, saysthe Lord.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Beautiful.
Well, lord, we do just ask you,lord, to draw near, help us to
feel, Lord, your nearness.
But thank you, Lord, that youare so present, lord, that you
collect our tears, lord, and Ipray that we wouldn't be afraid,
(21:36):
lord, of our tears and that wewouldn't be afraid of the tears
of those we're in community withLord, that you would just
release Lord emotion in us, lord, to express, to not hold back
Lord in a lamenting kind of way.
Lord, I thank you and we justask again, again, lord, that
(21:59):
that you would just grace uswith that, that nearness, and we
pray these things in Christ'sname, amen.
Welcome back to another episode of Becoming
Whole.
This is part two of theconversation about pursuing
goodness by leaning into griefand lament.
If you haven't listened to thefirst part of last week, we
encourage you to go back andlisten to that before you tune
into today.
Ready to continue theconversation, let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
One of the other things that that guy, dr Ron
Walburn, says is that he's knownfor speaking let's dive in that
.
You do them again If we don'thave a theology of grief or
lament when people don't gethealed.
(00:47):
I mean, he shares a story inhis talk about a pastor who
prayed for years and had a wholecommunity praying for his wife,
but his wife still passed away.
Yet the same pastor would seepeople healed on a somewhat
regular basis when he prayed forthat.
There's incredible grief inthat.
And so if he doesn't grievethat, he doesn't grieve that
(01:10):
reality that, whatever reasonsthat God has like not everyone's
healed.
On this side of heaven we'renot yet in the fullness, the
absolute fullness, of thekingdom, the new heavens and new
earth.
If we don't develop that kindof theology of grief, we can't
get that far.
In a lot of things we becomehardened because we don't know
how to deal with yeah, what theloss or the things not happening
(01:35):
that we know god can do yeah,so good.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Well, jesus was no stranger to to grief and lament,
as we've kind of alluded to alittle bit, and there are some
things I think that we canreally learn from him when we
look at how he didn't shy awayfrom, from grief and lament and
so immediately, most peopleprobably think about jesus
(02:01):
weeping.
And you know, especially withthe death of Lazarus or his good
buddy in the chosen, as theysaid, laz.
I love that, just the you knowthe humanity side of calling,
you know a friend, a nickname,but you know Lazarus dies and he
is deeply moved at how that'saffecting not just him and his
friendship with Lazarus, butMary and Martha and the
(02:24):
disciples and all the friends.
Like he sees, like he'sexperiencing it and he has moved
to tears.
I think he he weeps when Johnthe Baptist dies and and you
know I don't we don't read thatnecessarily, but Jesus being the
feeler that he was, as he, youknow, withdraws to a desolate
(02:47):
place on a boat to be by himselfcan only imagine that he is
crying out.
You know, tears of losing hisdear cousin I mean the one that
leapt in Elizabeth's womb whenhe was just near right, so you
know that and then also, whenhe's in the garden and he has
(03:09):
this, as we later read, the joyset before him but, like his
father's plan and knowing whatwas at stake and what he needed
to do and his role in that, andthat was hard to to accept,
right and and and he, he'scrying in the garden, you know,
(03:29):
and and you know, asks the Lordto take this from him, if, if
that be as well, and the Lorddoesn't take that cup.
We know that, and.
But yet there's grief in that.
There's a reality of the pain,of the hard of the, of the loss,
right, he's going to, of thepain of the hard of the loss
he's going to lose his life, hisearthly life.
So we talk about grief in termsof loss, and so that hangs
(03:52):
before him.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I love that passage too, about Jesus, isaiah 53,
that famous passage.
It says he was a man of sorrowsor a man of suffering and
familiar with grief or familiarwith pain, and what an amazing
image of what our God is like.
He's someone who didn't have toenter, he didn't have to create
(04:16):
all this that turned into themess that it often is, but he
chose to, and he also chooses togrieve with those who grieve,
yeah, and he prays too in themidst of grief, you know, to
bring comfort.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
And again, just his, his presence in these different
moments.
Right, he speaks into others,grief, and shows us really how,
how to do that with with oneanother.
He shares his grief with hisfriends, his disciples.
You know he doesn't hide it.
He does this, which reallyhighlights, I think, the need
(04:54):
for community and to be able togrieve together, showing, you
know, I mean we, we learn, youknow different, the different
experiences that we bring, thedifferent circumstances we've
been through.
Those are hard but those canalso offer hope and healing to
(05:14):
others and I think that's partof that right.
There's power and testimonybecause in the midst of someone
going through somethingdifficult, they can see how
someone's overcome or how theLord has met them and drawn near
and helped and had been presentwhen they're maybe not not
feeling that.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, dr Jim Wilder, who is the one who studied the
brain and its effect on ourspiritual formation for decades
now he talks about.
He defines joy as a sense ofI'm glad to be with you.
And what's amazing about thatdefinition which I do think
aligns with scripture is thatyou can have joy even when
you're crying in someone's armsbecause you're glad to be with
(05:56):
each other.
You can have joy even whenyou're angry, believe it or not.
Even angry at a person, you canstill be glad that they're
there, glad to be with them, andobviously that's an incredible
mark of maturity to be able toremain in joy in those really
painful emotions like sorrow oranger or shame.
But what an amazing image ofwhat the Christian community can
(06:20):
be.
And actually, when we'reexperiencing those really
negative emotions, in thecontext of joy, it's healing
what's way more painful to ourbrains.
The way God's designed us is toexperience tragedy without
another.
And so you're spot on, aaron,even from from a brain
perspective the way god'sdesigned us, he's designed us to
(06:43):
I mean paul says that carryeach other's burdens, to have
that joyful connection, evenwhen one person's up or another
person's down yeah, and there'seven some invitation in that and
some and some work.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I know, you know, because it's not easy, you know
we all have some work, you knowto do and and and to to really,
you know, press into that.
But it also makes me think thatyou know, if the importance of
community and grief, that ifwe're afraid to own our own
tears, that that we're going tobe scared of others, and anytime
(07:16):
that we see somebody who needsthat hug or needs some sort of
comfort, that we shy away fromthat because maybe we don't feel
like we've experienced that orwe've done that well.
And so there really is animportance to not only do it for
ourselves but to also, incommunity, be there for one
(07:38):
another.
And then, lastly, just Jesusalso points to the future in
grief.
So thinking again him at thetomb and speaking to Mary and
Martha that your brother willrise again.
And there's just something aboutthe current circumstance is
temporary.
There is hope and a future.
(07:59):
There is something more andsomething greater, and it's hard
to see that.
It's kind of like a sunset andyou've got all these beautiful
colors and you can see all thesethings, but when you're going
through grief it's like blackand white and you don't see all
of the beauty, you don't see allof the color.
But I love how he doesn't leaveus in this place of the hard
(08:22):
and the difficult but heactually speaks hope into the
future that those circumstancesare temporary.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, paul, I think, even says don't grieve, as those
who don't have hope Now I thinkagain in our context it often
doesn't know how to grieve atall we can be like it, basically
can shut down all sadness orgrief.
But I think what Paul's gettingat is that we do have this
profound hope that everythingsad will come untrue.
God is going to work even theseterrible things.
(08:57):
It doesn't mean we stop thesadness in the moment.
It doesn't mean that we shutthings down emotionally, but we
can still hold Again.
It's that idea of joy, likeGod's with us.
We can be glad to be with him.
He's glad to be with us even inour sadness, even in our sorrow
and ultimately, what he's mostglad about for Jesus, it says
(09:18):
that he went to the cross forthe joy set before him, because
he wanted to be fully reunitedwith us, and that's an
incredible hope, not only thathe's going to redeem everything
and he already has started butthat he's with us in that, and
that's what his incarnation thatwe just celebrated over
Christmas points to.
It's that he came in to be withus.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, and he will come again.
Amen, yes, amen yeah.
So let's shift to kind oftalking a little bit about how,
like, how do we begin?
How do we encourage someone tobegin the work of of grief and
lament?
What are some practical ways inin which those who are
listening can practice that work, or a couple of things that
(10:03):
come to mind for you.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, a couple of ideas here and feel free to
pause or go back.
We don't have time to get intoa ton of depth, but one of my
absolute favorite things to domost months of the year is to
read through the entire book ofPsalms.
They were split up by, Ibelieve, the Anglicans to have a
morning and an evening readingthat are relatively even, about
five minutes each.
(10:25):
You get through the entire 150Psalms every single month.
Why get into the Psalms?
Because they're full of therange of human emotion.
There's at least probably adozen that are just like, maybe
more, that are full of grief andlament, and there's actually
two that end with no hopewhatsoever.
And that's not because we'recalled to again be those who
(10:47):
grieve without hope, but it's toshow us like God sees us, like
this has been experienced before.
So this is a really importantway to grow our emotional life.
We are called to pray thePsalms, sing the Psalms.
Psalms are the most quoted bookin the New Testament, so if
you're not getting into thePsalms, such a great place to
(11:07):
start.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, you're missing something.
Yeah, mark, mark Vroga, whowrote Dark Clouds, deep Mercy,
actually identifies that one outof every three Psalms is a
limit.
So that's not necessarily likein a row or you know, like in
the first six psalms there's twoof them, but overall,
throughout the entire psalms,about one out of every three
(11:30):
psalms that you read is a lament, and so you just think about
again, like you said, those deepemotions, you know, and going
through that, I do the samething.
I like to go through the psalms, and so you just think about
again, like you said, those deepemotions, you know, and going
through that, I do the samething.
I like to go through the Psalms.
I do it slightly different.
We don't need to get into thedifferent ways of doing it, but
I think there is something aboutand that would actually be an
encouragement, a hugeencouragement in coaching that
(11:51):
I've shared with clients as well.
If they are stuck or don't knowhow to grieve or haven't
lamented, my encouragement is toget into the Psalms and to
begin to unlock some of thatemotion and those different
things.
So I think that's really good.
You can also practice writingyour own too, right, and again,
I think you know Mark wrote theMark Brogrip I hope I'm saying
(12:12):
his name right but he identifiesthat there are four kind of
elements, you know, when writingyour own.
So there's the turning to,there's the turn, and we turn to
God and we address him as we gointo prayer.
Sometimes that can be combinedwith complaint, which is the
next kind of step is to bringour complaints, you know, to
(12:33):
identify, in specific language,you know, and to not be afraid
to be blunt, like God can takeit.
He wants it all, like he wantsus to pour out our hearts before
him and we see that in thePsalms especially to bring our
pain, injustices, you know, andthose types of things.
And then the third.
The third step is to ask, tospecifically call on God to act
(12:55):
in a helpful manner that fitshis character and resolves the
complaint.
And lastly is to choose totrust, affirm that God is worthy
and that he can be trusted andpraised, despite of where we're
at in the circumstance, if we'veexperienced kind of coming
through that or not, that we canstill choose to trust him.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, we actually will throw another resource in
the show notes, based on Psalm 3, I believe, writing your own
Psalm Lament from SoulShepherding just another great
resource, similar set of steps,but it just kind of outlines the
Psalm and then it takes youthrough and it seems really
simple and for some people itmight feel like I really need to
(13:38):
sit here and kind of fill inthe blank, but I can't tell you
how helpful it's been for manypeople to pour out in that way,
have a little bit of structure,because, again, grief is not a
super structurable thing overall, but when we're trying to make
some outlets, when we're tryingto open up the smokestack to let
(13:59):
out some steam or whatever theright term would be, things like
this can be really, reallyhelpful.
I think.
Similarly, we can get ourbodies involved.
We can actually express theemotions bodily.
We can be shouting with God,encouraging you not to shout at
other people in your anger orsorrow, but God, like Aaron just
said, can totally take it, andsome of the Psalms are like
(14:23):
where are you, god?
God, you're asleep.
They'll say things like that.
It's like wait.
That's not theologicallyaccurate.
That's not the point of whatthe psalms are sometimes
portraying.
They're showing that a deeperthing, that they can get all of
it out to god.
So you can engage your body.
You could, you know, cry, youcould listen to certain kind of
music with your ears that helpyou get into some of the greed
(14:43):
for lament In scripture.
Actually, they use their body alot for this.
They would get in sackcloth andcover themselves in ashes.
What a crazy image if youreally think of it.
Sackcloth, I believe, was thisreally itchy, kind of painful to
put on or wear, I guess,garment, and so you're literally
feeling the pain of thediscomfort in that way to help
(15:07):
your mind breathe, and you'recovered in ashes.
You know the darkness ofeverything.
Ultimately, on this side of thenew heavens, new earth, ends up
in ashes.
You know, we, we go back todust, right, that's what
scripture says, and so these arevisceral reminders of the grief
that people are going through,and they in Jewish culture, and
(15:29):
they would sometimes, I believethey would grieve for like a
lost spouse for an entire year.
Can you imagine that in ourculture Usually it's like, okay,
we might let maybe a half anhour here or there, with the
death of a family member, orsomething like that.
Can you imagine a widow inclear grief and clear, choosing
to lament for an entire year,but again, that allowed them to
(15:52):
get out so much of what neededto be gotten out of their system
, so to speak, that they couldthen move forward with greater
joy and hope and other things.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, I mean, look at our culture, I think we get
like three days or something youknow most workplaces to, you
know bereavement and to kind ofenter into that, and it's not
like it stops after three days,right, like that continues on.
And so there's something youknow about just continuing to
allow that process, that griefprocess it really is a process
(16:24):
you know to to play itself out,to be present.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
In addition to these ideas with God that you can kind
of do on your own, andcommunity is so important here.
Paul, most of scripture iswritten with you plural y'all in
mind.
And so Paul says things likerejoice with those who rejoice
and mourn with those who mournRomans 12, 15.
So there's this actual kind ofcommand to get into the mourning
(16:51):
with people.
It doesn't say fix those whomourn.
It doesn't say give them aneasy Bible verse to cover over
their mourning.
It says mourn with those whomourn, get in that sackcloth and
ashes, wear the black clothes,whatever you know each cultural
expression was.
And I think that this is so key, aaron, because again, this is
how our brains are designed.
(17:11):
There's this idea again fromJim Wilder.
They call it VCR.
Jim Wilder and Marcus WarnerValidate, comfort, repattern.
Validate means you're justsimply validating someone's
emotions.
Isn't that what most of us wantwhen we're feeling stuff?
If we jump right into comfortwhich obviously is ultimately we
want to be comforted we mightkind of cover over what needs to
(17:35):
be let out right, we might kindof stop it short.
But we need to start with thatvalidation.
So if people are coming to usin grief, we can validate their
grief.
It doesn't mean you'revalidating their response to the
grief.
You know someone's response orcertain behaviors or whatever.
That's not what we're talkingabout.
We're just saying validatinghow they're feeling and then, at
the appropriate time, you canbring in the comfort.
(17:57):
It might be a a differentperspective, it might be certain
kind of prayer or things likethat, but having that order
re-patterns the person or, ifwe're receiving it ourselves, it
re-patterns us to know that wecan actually grieve in a
holistic and full way and thatthose who grieve again, like you
said earlier, will be comforted.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, gosh, I Gosh, I love that man, it's so good.
Well, as we, as we wrap this up, james, you know one thing that
I think about.
You know, in helping you knowwhat is helpful, how does
somebody do this?
You know an encouragement, youknow that that immediately comes
to mind would be to bring bringthat into a coaching session,
(18:40):
one-to-one coaching that weoffer here at Regen, or to not
go alone and to begin to reallypress into that and again, this
idea that there is goodness inthe grief and lament, and
pursuing that and how that canbe good and what that can unlock
(19:03):
, I think, for you as anindividual who is going through
a time of grief and lament, andJames, I want to give you the
last word and just ask you alsoto close us out in prayer.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Well, aaron, I actually I want you to pray for
us, man, because you're someonewho I see embody this, and I'd
love for you to actually justpray, especially for the men
listening at the very end, justthat we could release more tears
and, you know, for the womenlistening that we could enter
into that grief as we reallyneed.
But I will say real quick thatone of my favorite and most
(19:39):
important exercises I've everdone on this again happens to
come from this module of Awakenthat we're starting today.
We call it the good, the bad,the ugly.
It's just simply a lifeinventory the good, the bad and
the ugly.
I guess in this case the uglyis like things I've done, the
baddest things that have maybebeen done to me.
But what a way to kind of takea lifelong inventory, and that's
(20:01):
something I bring into coachingas well, just like you
mentioned, as I get a phone call.
Let me just say that again.
There you go.
Yeah, so the good, the bad andthe ugly.
This can be something that webring into coaching, but just
taking a life inventory of whatwe've been through to kind of
get this overview, we'll putthat in the notes as well, the
show notes.
But as we close, I just want toread this passage from Isaiah 65
(20:25):
about the hope that we do have.
This is verse 17 through 19 andthen verse 25.
See, I will create a newheavens and a new earth.
The former things will not beremembered, nor will they come
to mind.
But be glad and rejoice foreverin what I will create, for I
will create.
I will create jerusalem to be adelight and its people a joy.
(20:49):
I will rejoice over jerusalemand take delight in my people.
The sound of weeping and cryingwill be heard in it.
No more.
The wolf and the lamb will feedtogether and the lion will eat
straw like the ox, and dust willbe the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nordestroy.
On all my holy mountain, saysthe Lord.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Beautiful.
Well, lord, we do just ask you,lord, to draw near, help us to
feel, Lord, your nearness.
But thank you, Lord, that youare so present, lord, that you
collect our tears, lord, and Ipray that we wouldn't be afraid,
(21:36):
lord, of our tears and that wewouldn't be afraid of the tears
of those we're in community withLord, that you would just
release Lord emotion in us, lord, to express, to not hold back
Lord in a lamenting kind of way.
Lord, I thank you and we justask again, again, lord, that
(21:59):
that you would just grace uswith that, that nearness, and we
pray these things in Christ'sname, amen.
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