February 25, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode, James, a spiritual coach, and Kyle Bowman, Director of Ministry discuss the profound impact of remembering God on growing in sexual integrity. They explore the importance of remembering one's origins, the transformational power of recalling God's presence and love, and how integrating these memories can realign our heart postures. They also delve into the significance of marking milestones, using tangible icons, and scripture to anchor our faith, and share personal anecdotes and practical tips for cultivating a habit of remembering God in our everyday lives.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Remembering is a key part of growing in sexual
integrity.
Some of you guys may haverealized this, but our ministry
is run by Joshua Glazier, who isor was an English major and he
loves words and wordplay.
So this word remember we talkedabout it last week.
We explored Regeneration'sorigin story with Alan Menninger
(00:21):
.
We explored Regeneration'sorigin story with Alan Menninger
the story of God rememberingAlan, meeting him, beginning a
process of remembering him,putting him back together,
reintegrating him.
You see the wordplay now.
And so today I'm joined by KyleBowman.
I'm James, I'm a spiritualcoach here, and Kyle Bowman is
(00:43):
our director of ministry and ourDC Metro director.
Kyle, so glad to have you ontoday.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Glad to be here to talk with you on this subject
today.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
One of the things I loved about recording with Josh
recently for the episode one wasjust remembering.
This is this word that God hasput on our heart to remember our
origins, to remember Him.
So we're going to talk someabout that today.
But how would you say, kyle,that remembering God starting
with remembering God?
How does remembering God get atthe heart of growing in sexual
(01:19):
integrity, of being put backtogether?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I think, at the heart of remembering God continues to
propel your process forward,because there's a lot of things
we can remember and sometimesthe things that we remember are
not beneficial for us toremember.
But what the beauty ofremembering God is remembering
(01:46):
who he is in your life,remembering that he is for you,
he's not against you,remembering that he wants to be
your biggest champion and walkwith you as you go forward in
this process.
Walk with you as you go forwardin this process.
(02:09):
He's not just this bystander,this watching you try to feel
your way through and bumble yourway through, getting to
wholeness.
He wants to be the one who isworking in you and empowering
you to get to a place of sexualintegrity.
And so, when you can rememberwhat he has done for you, I
think, even if it means takingthe time to remember that he
(02:34):
called you into relationshipwith him, sometimes I think you
know we can.
You know we get into this life.
We are, you know we get intothis life.
We are, you know, followingJesus, and I think sometimes we
forget, like what it was likewhen you had that moment where
you go.
You know what I'm going tofollow Jesus and I believe that
(02:59):
he is the son of God, I believethat he was raised from the dead
and that I will have eternallife.
By believing in him, likesometimes, I think, we forget
even something that poignant,like we might even think about
where we came from.
Right, you know, it's easy togo.
Oh yeah, you know.
(03:19):
You remember.
I remember when I was fill inthe blank, but not just that
sweet moment when the light bulbcame on and the Lord opened
your heart to reveal himself toyou.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There's so much in scripture about remembering God
and I think part of why Godcommands the Israelites and the
people of God over and over,part of why he commands them to
remember him, is because we getthis revelation, we get truth
about who God is, and we get Idon't know if any of our
listeners I imagine many of youhave had those moments where
(03:52):
something has opened up andyou're like I literally had this
yesterday.
I was listening to this awesomeinterview about near-death
experiences something I've neverreally explored too much, but a
guy has studied them for 30years.
Explore too much, but a guy hasstudied them for 30 years.
And the picture of Jesus, thatperson after person, whether
(04:15):
they were Hindu or atheist orChristian, regardless of where
they were from on earth, thepicture of Jesus that they
encountered, the person of JesusI should say that they
encountered in these near-deathexperiences, which fully
corresponded with scripture, itwas so beautiful, it brought me
to tears and I've had so many ofthose kinds of moments.
I wish that it was a daily thing.
Maybe it needs to become moreof this daily habit of
remembering, but when we'rereminded of what God's really
(04:36):
like, what his love is reallylike, what his character is
really like it can actuallyrealign our heart postures.
I don't know about you, kyle,but so many of the people I work
with in coaching have troubleapproaching God after falling
into sexual sin, and I thinkpart of that is I mean, there's
probably a lot behind that, butpart of that is the image of God
(04:58):
that comes to their mind is onethat's not actually accurate.
It's not a God that they cancome to for grace and for mercy.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, that's very true.
They see the face of dad, theysee the face of mom, they see
the face of uncle, so-and-so,and it's hard to remove that
image being superimposed on whoGod is.
That image being superimposedon who God is Because,
(05:31):
ultimately, those within ourfamily of origin however, you
know, we were brought up whetherit was with mom and dad,
grandparents or whatever theyare the ones who are supposed to
image the heart of God to thosethey are raising, of God to
those they are raising.
And so when that gets alltwisted up, it is so hard to see
(05:53):
.
It's easy to think well, ifI've messed up, then there's
punishment, or there is distance, or maybe I'm shunned
altogether and not spoken to forweeks and weeks on end, and so
it's hard to remove that.
And, for those who arelistening, one of the ways that
(06:18):
I would love to offer in tryingto help to realign that image,
offer in trying to help torealign that image, especially
when you're dealing with sexualintegrity, a lot of times what
you can remember is thesepictures that you've seen before
, these acts that you've beeninvolved in before.
But what if you can take thatimagination and take that
(06:42):
remembering and remember thestory of the prodigal son and
remember, even as you thinkabout that story and you think
about the, what the prodigal sonmust have felt.
Can you even remember timesthat you may have felt that way?
(07:05):
But then shift your memoriestoward?
But look at how the fatherresponded.
The prodigal son wasn't anybodyspecial.
He wasn't, you know, some superreligious person that God
should show more favor to.
(07:26):
He's just like us.
And so what if you can rememberthe goodness of God through
that?
And maybe it means you closeyour eyes and you put yourself
in the place of the prodigal andfeel all of those feelings and
emotions and what it must belike to come back filthy, dirty
(07:52):
and smelly.
And yet the father says I'vegot to throw a party and you
know what.
I'm going to make sure you haveright clothes for the party.
I'm going to give you a robe,I'm going to give you a ring,
some shoes, hug and kiss you andpresent you back into this fold
.
What might that do for you inremembering who God is and how
(08:19):
he wants you to remember Him?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I think what we're talking about is what Christians
throughout the centuries havecalled icons, and I know that
there's a lot of, you know,disagreement about exactly what
an icon is or whatever.
But an icon is just somethingthat points us and reminds us of
God.
It's something that we're meantto see through to better see
God.
I actually have downstairs acopy a poster that's framed of
(08:48):
Rembrandt's "'Return of theProdigal Son' painting.
Henry Nouwen wrote an awesomebook.
Tim Keller wrote an awesomebook about the story of the
prodigal son.
But these kinds of images, thiskind of beauty, engaging symbols
like the cross or the crucifixcan remind us of what God is
like, and there's somethingbeautiful to that.
(09:09):
Obviously, people are alsomeant to be these icons.
They're meant to point us to be.
We're images of God.
We show something of what Godis like, so people can do this
as well.
But I think there's somethingreally profound, especially for
those of us with sexualbrokenness, of engaging, beauty
of engaging.
These are called thetranscendentals throughout
(09:30):
history, but the good, the trueand the beautiful, because
sexual brokenness is rooted inunreality.
It's rooted in twisted versionsof each of those twisting of
truth, twisting of goodness,twisting of beauty.
There's something aboutentering into God's creation or
beautiful art or profoundsymbols.
(09:50):
That can maybe be part of theundoing of that, like, basically
, when we're entering into thegood, the true and the beautiful
, we're remembering what is real, that which has come from God.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know some people may feel a
level of discomfort with that,right, you know you may figure
like, okay, but everything Ineed is right here, it's right
here in the Bible and I don'tneed anything else.
And absolutely Scripture haswhat we need.
(10:22):
But God is a creator and he hascreated some very beautiful
things.
He has some very beautifulthings he has, you know, to take
in a beautiful sunset orsunrise and to know that that is
something that God has createdfor us to experience, to be able
(10:46):
to walk in nature and to seebeautiful green trees or
beautiful different varieties ofbirds and things of that nature
.
To experience a painting.
Right, Like you said, theexperience of painting and
experiencing beautiful art,whether it is a painting,
(11:09):
whether it is a sculpture.
Hey, for some parents it mightbe when your kids put that paint
on their hands and stuck it ona piece of paper and said put
this on the refrigerator.
Right, there's beauty in thatand God wants you to be able to
(11:30):
see, through his creation, hislove for us and care for us and
to draw us into wanting more ofthat, as opposed to, as you
stated earlier, instead ofturning to the false things,
entering into the things ofbeauty that God has created.
(11:52):
Entering into the things ofbeauty that God has created that
point toward him.
There's a quote by Paul DavidTripp that I love.
He says every pleasurable thingshould point to the one who
created it.
So that means when you see thatbeautiful sunset, it should
point to God.
When you see that those stickfigures that your kids drew, and
(12:19):
they were so proud of them andwanted you to have them, should
point you to God, and so thatmeans that any of your sexual
activity should also point youto God activity should also
point you to God.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know, a lot of people through history have said
that there's two books God,where one is the Bible and the
other book is nature, andthere's something profound about
learning to read both.
Well, reading scripture, as Godintended, but also reading this
natural world he's created.
But speaking of Scripture, arethere any Scriptures that come
to your mind that help you,whether it's remembering God or
(12:58):
remembering what God's createdas good, true and beautiful,
remembering reality?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, I think if you look at Psalm 77, verse 11, it
says I will remember the deedsof the Lord, yes, I will
remember your wonders of old.
And even if you go into 12,where it says I will ponder all
(13:26):
your work and meditate on yourmighty deeds.
And to just pause there andknow that the psalmist was
really struggling and in themidst of his struggle he was
able to go.
But wait, like I've got toremember what God has done, and
(13:53):
it should hopefully outweigh allof the bad, and it doesn't
discount that the bad is bad,but what it means is that there
is hope because the Lord can getyou on the other side, and so I
think that is so important tomake a practice of remembering.
(14:15):
And the thing about it isthere's some cool stuff that
gets rewired in your brain whenyou can do that too.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Something about like, even in laments you said Psalm
77, it's a psalm of lament wecan be moved toward.
It's a psalm of lament we canbe moved toward there's
something deeper going on.
There's something, there'ssomeone who has done amazing
things Even.
What's the difference, kyle,between remembering what God has
done and kind of whitewashingour sadness or lament, or
(14:47):
skipping over our grief lamentor skipping over our grief.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, I mean to whitewash.
It almost acts like you actlike it didn't exist, or you say
, oh, that wasn't so bad.
Or maybe what you do is youcompare your thing to somebody
else's right.
Oh well, at least mine wasn'tas bad as so-and-so, Mine wasn't
as bad as so-and-so.
(15:14):
And God never calls us to that.
And you can go through thePsalms and see how the Psalmists
cried out when they thoughtthat there was injustice, when
they thought that, listen, god,I think you forgot about me,
because I'm experiencing this,this and this, because I'm
experiencing this, this and this.
And God has never called us towhitewash.
(15:36):
But what he calls us to is, aswe remember, we can acknowledge
the pain, and because God helpsus to that, he allows us to
(15:58):
acknowledge the pain.
It also takes us a step closertoward him Because, ultimately,
he is the one who can meet us inthe pain.
He is the comforter.
And so as we step toward himand give him that pain and take
our time to lament, then we havethis opportunity.
As we release that he wants toput more of himself into us, and
(16:20):
that gives us this opportunityto draw closer to him.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
It's almost like we're putting our narrative,
like our current narrative,what's going on in our mind into
the context of his grandnarrative, of his meta-narrative
of all that he is, all thathe's doing and, like you're
saying, these aren't meant to beplatitudes or cliches that
(16:44):
someone speaks over you becausethey can't handle your sadness.
The Psalms are incrediblyhonest.
I talk about this all the timewith the guys that I coach.
The Psalms are incrediblyhonest.
There's a Keller quote, I can'texactly recall, but he says
that they're like pre-reasoned,they're like before you even
think things through really well, they're just like these honest
bursts of emotion.
(17:05):
I mean, think about Psalm 22.
My God, my God, why have youforsaken me?
Jesus said it from the crossand in that moment you know, a
lot of theologians believe therewas a sense in which God turned
his face from Jesus so thatJesus could bring us into the
fold of God.
But the psalmist who wrote thatlike did God truly forsake him?
(17:27):
No, like God has not actuallyforsaken any of us again.
Besides, maybe in that momenton the cross when Jesus bore our
sin.
And so that's not like, hey,let me gather this theological
truth that like, god has trulyforsaken me.
But that's how honest we can be.
That's how honest we can be.
Psalm 88 is one of those Psalms.
It's so, it's.
It doesn't even end with a noteof hope.
(17:49):
There's actually two Psalms Ithink one of them is in the 30s,
I can't remember the other onebut Psalm 88 ends without that
note because there's just thislike rawness.
But most Psalms of lament, mostPsalms of lament, come back to a
place of and God, I'm remindingmyself right now.
I'm remembering what you'relike and what you do.
(18:10):
I'm remembering what you'relike and what you do.
And so, in this context ofwe're remembering God, we're
remembering what's real, we'rekind of going around this aspect
of.
We're also therefore needing toremember what's happened to us.
We're remembering our woundsand we take those wounds our
starting point is into a placeof lament.
Ideally it's with God andcommunity.
(18:35):
That's hopefully becoming moreof a reality in many of our
circles.
I know that for most of uswe've dealt with sadness on our
own for so much of life, butbringing our lament into God,
into community.
But, kyle, can you back us up asecond and help us understand
why it's even worth rememberingour wounds?
Shouldn't I just kind of leavethat stuff in the past and focus
on God's goodness or glory.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, I think remembering our wounds helps us
to frame them properly.
Give me one second here.
I don't want to cough overeverybody, okay, excuse me you
all, but it helps us to reframeour circumstances.
(19:19):
So, for instance, you canremember, so that you can see
what are the factors that havecontributed to your unwanted
sexual behavior, your unwantedsexual behavior, what are these
(19:45):
things that may have influencedyou to go in the direction of
sin you have chosen to go into?
And it's not an exercise oftrying to blame shift, but it's
an exercise of acknowledging, asyou acknowledge your own
culpability, you alsoacknowledge the things that have
affected you, because God isnot looking past, that.
(20:07):
He understands the things thathave affected you and you can do
it in a healthy way.
It's not this oh, I'm such anawful person and you know I'm
just scum and you know I'llnever this is all I'll ever be.
(20:28):
That's not healthy.
But this is being able to becurious, I think is a good word
is to be curious about.
Are there some things that Ihave taken in that really have
affected the way I see the worldand how I chose to deal with
(20:49):
those things?
That's really important.
And as you walk through thatand as you become curious about
that, you should also rememberto be kind to yourself in it,
because the enemy would love foryou to turn in on yourself and
to say, oh, that was your faultwhen that happened.
(21:12):
Maybe if you didn't do X, y, zthen they wouldn't have done
this to you.
The enemy wants to get in thereand to kind of make you condemn
yourself in that.
So you have to show somekindness to yourself as you go
through it and to be able to say, and to be able to say Lord,
(21:36):
maybe you don't realize theinfluence someone had over you.
Maybe you didn't realize howvulnerable you were, you didn't
realize how much more powerfulsomeone was over you, over you,
(22:02):
and so, or maybe you didn'trealize, gosh, I I longed for,
you know, to have these good,healthy relationships within my
home.
But you know I was always putdown or I was always, you know,
said things.
There were things said about methat you know that I would
never be any good or whateverthose things are.
You want to just step back andto be able to say you know what
(22:22):
those things were hurtful.
And as a child growing up, youhave to figure out how to work
that stuff out when you're noteven mature enough to do so, and
so that's what I mean by beingkind to yourself.
You don't have to take on theresponsibility of some things
(22:44):
that you have experienced.
You can't.
You don't have to take that onand say that that's your fault.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
And even things that are things that you've done,
things you've chosen to do, sinsyou've done.
God is actually kind to us.
It says in scripture God'skindness leads us to repentance.
It's not his condemnation, it'snot his accusation that stuff's
from the enemy.
It's God's kindness and one ofthe fruit of the spirit, which
you could also say areattributes of God, because
(23:13):
they're the fruit of the HolySpirit, who is God, is kindness.
And so it might sound funkylike be kind to myself, whether
it's the things done to me likeyou're talking about Kyle or the
sins I've done, doesn't that?
Doesn't that that kind ofgrates against many of our ways
of viewing ourselves?
But actually, what you're doingis you're appropriating, you're
, you're taking on, you'rereceiving God's kindness toward
(23:37):
you, which is actually whatleads us to repentance.
So, as you're remembering yourwounds, as you're remembering
your own sins, this is not aninvitation, then, to go into
self-flagellation mode.
This is actually an invitationto receiving God's kindness and
to kind of appropriating it intoyour own view of yourself and
(23:58):
how you engage with yourself.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, and then I think there's also now, there's
this opportunity to then.
How do you mark remembering?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, tell us a little bit about that, because
it seems like in scripture thereare similar to these icons we
talked about earlier.
There are these moments I thinkof.
I think it was right after theIsraelites crossed the Jordan
they were told to make anEbenezer, they were called to
make a little monument ofremembering what God had done.
And so we see, these are kindof curious because I think for
(24:36):
most of us we don't come from aculture that maybe has a lot of
Ebenezers or we don't talk aboutthat much.
But what have you found helpfulin finding ways to remember
like that?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I think about the scripture you're referring
to is Joshua 4.
And it says and Joshua 4.
And you know it says and Joshuasaid to them Pass on before the
ark of the Lord, your God, intothe midst of the Jordan and
take up, each of you, a stoneupon his shoulders, according to
(25:09):
the number of the tribes of thepeople of Israel, that this may
be a sign among you.
And then he goes on to say thatit is a reminder.
When your children ask you whatdo these stones mean?
You can remember.
This is what the Lord did hecut off the water so that we
(25:30):
could cross the Jordan, and thatthe stones would be a memorial
forever to the Lord.
And how might our listenersconsider creating their own,
ebenezers, when you have amoment in time where you have
(25:52):
noticed, a moment in time whereyou have noticed Lord, I
realized that I haven't actedout.
It might be three days.
What can you use to mark that?
What will be your stone thatyou can get?
What can you use as a marker sothat you have some sort of
(26:17):
remembrance for yourself?
Maybe there's something elsethat is meaningful for you to
use so that you remember, and Idon't mean it as a way of
counting right.
This isn't about oh, let mecount up the number of times
(26:37):
this is about.
Here's a significant momentthat I want to remember what God
did for me, and so you know,I've had clients who have gotten
rocks, and every time that theyhad a significant breakthrough,
(26:58):
they got that and they put itsomewhere where they could see
it and remember it.
And so maybe it's not a stone,maybe it's something else that
you choose to use, but I wouldencourage those who are
listening to really considerwhat it means for them.
What are those things they canuse to help them remember,
(27:19):
because sometimes we need helpremembering, because the enemy
certainly doesn't want you toremember what God has done.
He wants you to remember allthe sin that you've committed,
and so these are things thatalso help combat the voice of
the enemy.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I still have for those who are watching with us
on YouTube.
I don't know if it'll show upwell, but I still got this
little white stone that whenKyle and our former colleague
who's since retired Bob, led usthrough one of our programs here
at Regen, they had us, I think.
Did you guys actually mailthese stones to us?
I think you did, we did, andthey represent.
(27:57):
I've got it right in front ofme on my desk.
They represent the white stonewith the name that God gives us,
that only he knows, orsomething akin to that, right
Kyle.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, and so it's a great little, and earlier, by
the way, I was holding up across.
I'm realizing obviously mostpeople are just listening along,
not on YouTube, but, yeah,these things can be such great
symbols to remember what God islike, and so we ask you to
consider friends.
What can be your Ebenezer?
What are ways that you can markout milestones in your life
(28:30):
that God's helped you to?
But also what are ways you canmark out the fact that God
remembers you.
We said this last week Godremembered Alan, our founder.
He didn't forget about him inall of his years of sexual sin
and brokenness, and God stillremembered Alan.
Brokenness and God stillremembered Alan.
And is there, are there anymarkers like?
Are there any markers you canmake of God remembering you A
(28:56):
time where he showed up and itbrought you to tears, or you
could experience his presence oryou just had a powerful moment
of understanding his love?
What are ways that you canbring tactile things in that
remind you Just like I also haveknickknacks on my desk of great
trips you know from myhoneymoon, or other things like
that what are things that youcan tangibly have, or even
(29:18):
things that are out in naturethat can remind you like okay,
for some reason I had thismoment of prayer and I'm going
to allow this tree to remind me.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Like God met me under that tree, or God met me in
this place, in my house,something like that so that you
(29:57):
remember that moment, that Godused this person to minister to
me, to meet me, to say what Ineeded, to hear, to speak that
truth, and I think too, justusing scripture right here, in
Isaiah 49, verse 15, says andIsaiah 49, verse 15, says can a
woman forget her nursing child?
That she should have nocompassion on the son of her
womb?
Even these may forget, yet Iwill not forget you.
(30:21):
And so you have a promise fromGod that he won't forget you.
He has said that he would neverleave you, he would never
forsake you.
So you have a promise that he'snot going to forget you.
And you know what's cool?
The thing that he does forgetis your sins.
Right, they're as far as theEast is from, the West is from
(30:54):
the West, but yet he's not goingto forget you.
And so what are the ways thatyou can use some things to help
you always remember that heremembers you?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So beautiful.
You know, at our upcomingfundraising desserts, for the
first time ever, we're going tohave these interactive art
stations, things that connectwith things we've done with our
clients, things like pictures,or we might have sculptures.
There's going to be a wholevariety of things and this is
our way of entering into likeGod calls us to remember.
(31:26):
God calls us to allow thesethings to point us back to Him,
these milestones, these markers.
So, kyle, in light of all that,would you be willing to pray us
out?
Pray that those listening wouldbe able to remember all the
goodness of God in their livesand remember powerful works that
he's done.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Gracious God and Father.
Sure Gracious God and Father.
You have known us from thefoundations of the world, before
the world was even formed.
(32:07):
God, you, the memories thatthey have are always their own
sin or the sin that has beencommitted against them.
Father, I pray that you wouldlead them toward offering those
memories to you and asking youearnestly, god, to replace them
(32:27):
with all of the ways that theycan remember what you have done
and the ways that you haveremembered them.
And so, lord, I ask that youwould help them not to be
concerned with what that lookslike.
You know whatever thing worksfor them, lord, with what that
(32:51):
looks like.
You know whatever thing worksfor them, lord, and if that's
personal to them, then, god, youwill use that.
And so I'm so grateful, God,for all of those who are
listening who will be encouragedby this.
And God, help them to know thatyou even marked this time out
for them to hear it, and that isa way of you remembering them.
And so, lord, we entrust everyperson who will hear this
(33:15):
podcast, whether it's the dayit's released, weeks from then,
months from now, even years fromnow, god, we thank you that
you're going to use it to edifythem and to glorify yourself,
and I lift this prayer to you inthe name of your son Jesus
Christ.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Amen.
Thanks, Kyle.
Remembering is a key part of growing in sexual
integrity.
Some of you guys may haverealized this, but our ministry
is run by Joshua Glazier, who isor was an English major and he
loves words and wordplay.
So this word remember we talkedabout it last week.
We explored Regeneration'sorigin story with Alan Menninger
(00:21):
.
We explored Regeneration'sorigin story with Alan Menninger
the story of God rememberingAlan, meeting him, beginning a
process of remembering him,putting him back together,
reintegrating him.
You see the wordplay now.
And so today I'm joined by KyleBowman.
I'm James, I'm a spiritualcoach here, and Kyle Bowman is
(00:43):
our director of ministry and ourDC Metro director.
Kyle, so glad to have you ontoday.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Glad to be here to talk with you on this subject
today.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
One of the things I loved about recording with Josh
recently for the episode one wasjust remembering.
This is this word that God hasput on our heart to remember our
origins, to remember Him.
So we're going to talk someabout that today.
But how would you say, kyle,that remembering God starting
with remembering God?
How does remembering God get atthe heart of growing in sexual
(01:19):
integrity, of being put backtogether?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I think, at the heart of remembering God continues to
propel your process forward,because there's a lot of things
we can remember and sometimesthe things that we remember are
not beneficial for us toremember.
But what the beauty ofremembering God is remembering
(01:46):
who he is in your life,remembering that he is for you,
he's not against you,remembering that he wants to be
your biggest champion and walkwith you as you go forward in
this process.
Walk with you as you go forwardin this process.
(02:09):
He's not just this bystander,this watching you try to feel
your way through and bumble yourway through, getting to
wholeness.
He wants to be the one who isworking in you and empowering
you to get to a place of sexualintegrity.
And so, when you can rememberwhat he has done for you, I
think, even if it means takingthe time to remember that he
(02:34):
called you into relationshipwith him, sometimes I think you
know we can.
You know we get into this life.
We are, you know we get intothis life.
We are, you know, followingJesus, and I think sometimes we
forget, like what it was likewhen you had that moment where
you go.
You know what I'm going tofollow Jesus and I believe that
(02:59):
he is the son of God, I believethat he was raised from the dead
and that I will have eternallife.
By believing in him, likesometimes, I think, we forget
even something that poignant,like we might even think about
where we came from.
Right, you know, it's easy togo.
Oh yeah, you know.
(03:19):
You remember.
I remember when I was fill inthe blank, but not just that
sweet moment when the light bulbcame on and the Lord opened
your heart to reveal himself toyou.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There's so much in scripture about remembering God
and I think part of why Godcommands the Israelites and the
people of God over and over,part of why he commands them to
remember him, is because we getthis revelation, we get truth
about who God is, and we get Idon't know if any of our
listeners I imagine many of youhave had those moments where
(03:52):
something has opened up andyou're like I literally had this
yesterday.
I was listening to this awesomeinterview about near-death
experiences something I've neverreally explored too much, but a
guy has studied them for 30years.
Explore too much, but a guy hasstudied them for 30 years.
And the picture of Jesus, thatperson after person, whether
(04:15):
they were Hindu or atheist orChristian, regardless of where
they were from on earth, thepicture of Jesus that they
encountered, the person of JesusI should say that they
encountered in these near-deathexperiences, which fully
corresponded with scripture, itwas so beautiful, it brought me
to tears and I've had so many ofthose kinds of moments.
I wish that it was a daily thing.
Maybe it needs to become moreof this daily habit of
remembering, but when we'rereminded of what God's really
(04:36):
like, what his love is reallylike, what his character is
really like it can actuallyrealign our heart postures.
I don't know about you, kyle,but so many of the people I work
with in coaching have troubleapproaching God after falling
into sexual sin, and I thinkpart of that is I mean, there's
probably a lot behind that, butpart of that is the image of God
(04:58):
that comes to their mind is onethat's not actually accurate.
It's not a God that they cancome to for grace and for mercy.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, that's very true.
They see the face of dad, theysee the face of mom, they see
the face of uncle, so-and-so,and it's hard to remove that
image being superimposed on whoGod is.
That image being superimposedon who God is Because,
(05:31):
ultimately, those within ourfamily of origin however, you
know, we were brought up whetherit was with mom and dad,
grandparents or whatever theyare the ones who are supposed to
image the heart of God to thosethey are raising, of God to
those they are raising.
And so when that gets alltwisted up, it is so hard to see
(05:53):
.
It's easy to think well, ifI've messed up, then there's
punishment, or there is distance, or maybe I'm shunned
altogether and not spoken to forweeks and weeks on end, and so
it's hard to remove that.
And, for those who arelistening, one of the ways that
(06:18):
I would love to offer in tryingto help to realign that image,
offer in trying to help torealign that image, especially
when you're dealing with sexualintegrity, a lot of times what
you can remember is thesepictures that you've seen before
, these acts that you've beeninvolved in before.
But what if you can take thatimagination and take that
(06:42):
remembering and remember thestory of the prodigal son and
remember, even as you thinkabout that story and you think
about the, what the prodigal sonmust have felt.
Can you even remember timesthat you may have felt that way?
(07:05):
But then shift your memoriestoward?
But look at how the fatherresponded.
The prodigal son wasn't anybodyspecial.
He wasn't, you know, some superreligious person that God
should show more favor to.
(07:26):
He's just like us.
And so what if you can rememberthe goodness of God through
that?
And maybe it means you closeyour eyes and you put yourself
in the place of the prodigal andfeel all of those feelings and
emotions and what it must belike to come back filthy, dirty
(07:52):
and smelly.
And yet the father says I'vegot to throw a party and you
know what.
I'm going to make sure you haveright clothes for the party.
I'm going to give you a robe,I'm going to give you a ring,
some shoes, hug and kiss you andpresent you back into this fold
.
What might that do for you inremembering who God is and how
(08:19):
he wants you to remember Him?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I think what we're talking about is what Christians
throughout the centuries havecalled icons, and I know that
there's a lot of, you know,disagreement about exactly what
an icon is or whatever.
But an icon is just somethingthat points us and reminds us of
God.
It's something that we're meantto see through to better see
God.
I actually have downstairs acopy a poster that's framed of
(08:48):
Rembrandt's "'Return of theProdigal Son' painting.
Henry Nouwen wrote an awesomebook.
Tim Keller wrote an awesomebook about the story of the
prodigal son.
But these kinds of images, thiskind of beauty, engaging symbols
like the cross or the crucifixcan remind us of what God is
like, and there's somethingbeautiful to that.
(09:09):
Obviously, people are alsomeant to be these icons.
They're meant to point us to be.
We're images of God.
We show something of what Godis like, so people can do this
as well.
But I think there's somethingreally profound, especially for
those of us with sexualbrokenness, of engaging, beauty
of engaging.
These are called thetranscendentals throughout
(09:30):
history, but the good, the trueand the beautiful, because
sexual brokenness is rooted inunreality.
It's rooted in twisted versionsof each of those twisting of
truth, twisting of goodness,twisting of beauty.
There's something aboutentering into God's creation or
beautiful art or profoundsymbols.
(09:50):
That can maybe be part of theundoing of that, like, basically
, when we're entering into thegood, the true and the beautiful
, we're remembering what is real, that which has come from God.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, absolutely, and you know some people may feel a
level of discomfort with that,right, you know you may figure
like, okay, but everything Ineed is right here, it's right
here in the Bible and I don'tneed anything else.
And absolutely Scripture haswhat we need.
(10:22):
But God is a creator and he hascreated some very beautiful
things.
He has some very beautifulthings he has, you know, to take
in a beautiful sunset orsunrise and to know that that is
something that God has createdfor us to experience, to be able
(10:46):
to walk in nature and to seebeautiful green trees or
beautiful different varieties ofbirds and things of that nature
.
To experience a painting.
Right, Like you said, theexperience of painting and
experiencing beautiful art,whether it is a painting,
(11:09):
whether it is a sculpture.
Hey, for some parents it mightbe when your kids put that paint
on their hands and stuck it ona piece of paper and said put
this on the refrigerator.
Right, there's beauty in thatand God wants you to be able to
(11:30):
see, through his creation, hislove for us and care for us and
to draw us into wanting more ofthat, as opposed to, as you
stated earlier, instead ofturning to the false things,
entering into the things ofbeauty that God has created.
(11:52):
Entering into the things ofbeauty that God has created that
point toward him.
There's a quote by Paul DavidTripp that I love.
He says every pleasurable thingshould point to the one who
created it.
So that means when you see thatbeautiful sunset, it should
point to God.
When you see that those stickfigures that your kids drew, and
(12:19):
they were so proud of them andwanted you to have them, should
point you to God, and so thatmeans that any of your sexual
activity should also point youto God activity should also
point you to God.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know, a lot of people through history have said
that there's two books God,where one is the Bible and the
other book is nature, andthere's something profound about
learning to read both.
Well, reading scripture, as Godintended, but also reading this
natural world he's created.
But speaking of Scripture, arethere any Scriptures that come
to your mind that help you,whether it's remembering God or
(12:58):
remembering what God's createdas good, true and beautiful,
remembering reality?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, I think if you look at Psalm 77, verse 11, it
says I will remember the deedsof the Lord, yes, I will
remember your wonders of old.
And even if you go into 12,where it says I will ponder all
(13:26):
your work and meditate on yourmighty deeds.
And to just pause there andknow that the psalmist was
really struggling and in themidst of his struggle he was
able to go.
But wait, like I've got toremember what God has done, and
(13:53):
it should hopefully outweigh allof the bad, and it doesn't
discount that the bad is bad,but what it means is that there
is hope because the Lord can getyou on the other side, and so I
think that is so important tomake a practice of remembering.
(14:15):
And the thing about it isthere's some cool stuff that
gets rewired in your brain whenyou can do that too.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Something about like, even in laments you said Psalm
77, it's a psalm of lament wecan be moved toward.
It's a psalm of lament we canbe moved toward there's
something deeper going on.
There's something, there'ssomeone who has done amazing
things Even.
What's the difference, kyle,between remembering what God has
done and kind of whitewashingour sadness or lament, or
(14:47):
skipping over our grief lamentor skipping over our grief.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, I mean to whitewash.
It almost acts like you actlike it didn't exist, or you say
, oh, that wasn't so bad.
Or maybe what you do is youcompare your thing to somebody
else's right.
Oh well, at least mine wasn'tas bad as so-and-so, Mine wasn't
as bad as so-and-so.
(15:14):
And God never calls us to that.
And you can go through thePsalms and see how the Psalmists
cried out when they thoughtthat there was injustice, when
they thought that, listen, god,I think you forgot about me,
because I'm experiencing this,this and this, because I'm
experiencing this, this and this.
And God has never called us towhitewash.
(15:36):
But what he calls us to is, aswe remember, we can acknowledge
the pain, and because God helpsus to that, he allows us to
(15:58):
acknowledge the pain.
It also takes us a step closertoward him Because, ultimately,
he is the one who can meet us inthe pain.
He is the comforter.
And so as we step toward himand give him that pain and take
our time to lament, then we havethis opportunity.
As we release that he wants toput more of himself into us, and
(16:20):
that gives us this opportunityto draw closer to him.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
It's almost like we're putting our narrative,
like our current narrative,what's going on in our mind into
the context of his grandnarrative, of his meta-narrative
of all that he is, all thathe's doing and, like you're
saying, these aren't meant to beplatitudes or cliches that
(16:44):
someone speaks over you becausethey can't handle your sadness.
The Psalms are incrediblyhonest.
I talk about this all the timewith the guys that I coach.
The Psalms are incrediblyhonest.
There's a Keller quote, I can'texactly recall, but he says
that they're like pre-reasoned,they're like before you even
think things through really well, they're just like these honest
bursts of emotion.
(17:05):
I mean, think about Psalm 22.
My God, my God, why have youforsaken me?
Jesus said it from the crossand in that moment you know, a
lot of theologians believe therewas a sense in which God turned
his face from Jesus so thatJesus could bring us into the
fold of God.
But the psalmist who wrote thatlike did God truly forsake him?
(17:27):
No, like God has not actuallyforsaken any of us again.
Besides, maybe in that momenton the cross when Jesus bore our
sin.
And so that's not like, hey,let me gather this theological
truth that like, god has trulyforsaken me.
But that's how honest we can be.
That's how honest we can be.
Psalm 88 is one of those Psalms.
It's so, it's.
It doesn't even end with a noteof hope.
(17:49):
There's actually two Psalms Ithink one of them is in the 30s,
I can't remember the other onebut Psalm 88 ends without that
note because there's just thislike rawness.
But most Psalms of lament, mostPsalms of lament, come back to a
place of and God, I'm remindingmyself right now.
I'm remembering what you'relike and what you do.
(18:10):
I'm remembering what you'relike and what you do.
And so, in this context ofwe're remembering God, we're
remembering what's real, we'rekind of going around this aspect
of.
We're also therefore needing toremember what's happened to us.
We're remembering our woundsand we take those wounds our
starting point is into a placeof lament.
Ideally it's with God andcommunity.
(18:35):
That's hopefully becoming moreof a reality in many of our
circles.
I know that for most of uswe've dealt with sadness on our
own for so much of life, butbringing our lament into God,
into community.
But, kyle, can you back us up asecond and help us understand
why it's even worth rememberingour wounds?
Shouldn't I just kind of leavethat stuff in the past and focus
on God's goodness or glory.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, I think remembering our wounds helps us
to frame them properly.
Give me one second here.
I don't want to cough overeverybody, okay, excuse me you
all, but it helps us to reframeour circumstances.
(19:19):
So, for instance, you canremember, so that you can see
what are the factors that havecontributed to your unwanted
sexual behavior, your unwantedsexual behavior, what are these
(19:45):
things that may have influencedyou to go in the direction of
sin you have chosen to go into?
And it's not an exercise oftrying to blame shift, but it's
an exercise of acknowledging, asyou acknowledge your own
culpability, you alsoacknowledge the things that have
affected you, because God isnot looking past, that.
(20:07):
He understands the things thathave affected you and you can do
it in a healthy way.
It's not this oh, I'm such anawful person and you know I'm
just scum and you know I'llnever this is all I'll ever be.
(20:28):
That's not healthy.
But this is being able to becurious, I think is a good word
is to be curious about.
Are there some things that Ihave taken in that really have
affected the way I see the worldand how I chose to deal with
(20:49):
those things?
That's really important.
And as you walk through thatand as you become curious about
that, you should also rememberto be kind to yourself in it,
because the enemy would love foryou to turn in on yourself and
to say, oh, that was your faultwhen that happened.
(21:12):
Maybe if you didn't do X, y, zthen they wouldn't have done
this to you.
The enemy wants to get in thereand to kind of make you condemn
yourself in that.
So you have to show somekindness to yourself as you go
through it and to be able to say, and to be able to say Lord,
(21:36):
maybe you don't realize theinfluence someone had over you.
Maybe you didn't realize howvulnerable you were, you didn't
realize how much more powerfulsomeone was over you, over you,
(22:02):
and so, or maybe you didn'trealize, gosh, I I longed for,
you know, to have these good,healthy relationships within my
home.
But you know I was always putdown or I was always, you know,
said things.
There were things said about methat you know that I would
never be any good or whateverthose things are.
You want to just step back andto be able to say you know what
(22:22):
those things were hurtful.
And as a child growing up, youhave to figure out how to work
that stuff out when you're noteven mature enough to do so, and
so that's what I mean by beingkind to yourself.
You don't have to take on theresponsibility of some things
(22:44):
that you have experienced.
You can't.
You don't have to take that onand say that that's your fault.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
And even things that are things that you've done,
things you've chosen to do, sinsyou've done.
God is actually kind to us.
It says in scripture God'skindness leads us to repentance.
It's not his condemnation, it'snot his accusation that stuff's
from the enemy.
It's God's kindness and one ofthe fruit of the spirit, which
you could also say areattributes of God, because
(23:13):
they're the fruit of the HolySpirit, who is God, is kindness.
And so it might sound funkylike be kind to myself, whether
it's the things done to me likeyou're talking about Kyle or the
sins I've done, doesn't that?
Doesn't that that kind ofgrates against many of our ways
of viewing ourselves?
But actually, what you're doingis you're appropriating, you're
, you're taking on, you'rereceiving God's kindness toward
(23:37):
you, which is actually whatleads us to repentance.
So, as you're remembering yourwounds, as you're remembering
your own sins, this is not aninvitation, then, to go into
self-flagellation mode.
This is actually an invitationto receiving God's kindness and
to kind of appropriating it intoyour own view of yourself and
(23:58):
how you engage with yourself.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, and then I think there's also now, there's
this opportunity to then.
How do you mark remembering?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, tell us a little bit about that, because
it seems like in scripture thereare similar to these icons we
talked about earlier.
There are these moments I thinkof.
I think it was right after theIsraelites crossed the Jordan
they were told to make anEbenezer, they were called to
make a little monument ofremembering what God had done.
And so we see, these are kindof curious because I think for
(24:36):
most of us we don't come from aculture that maybe has a lot of
Ebenezers or we don't talk aboutthat much.
But what have you found helpfulin finding ways to remember
like that?
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, I think about the scripture you're referring
to is Joshua 4.
And it says and Joshua 4.
And you know it says and Joshuasaid to them Pass on before the
ark of the Lord, your God, intothe midst of the Jordan and
take up, each of you, a stoneupon his shoulders, according to
(25:09):
the number of the tribes of thepeople of Israel, that this may
be a sign among you.
And then he goes on to say thatit is a reminder.
When your children ask you whatdo these stones mean?
You can remember.
This is what the Lord did hecut off the water so that we
(25:30):
could cross the Jordan, and thatthe stones would be a memorial
forever to the Lord.
And how might our listenersconsider creating their own,
ebenezers, when you have amoment in time where you have
(25:52):
noticed, a moment in time whereyou have noticed Lord, I
realized that I haven't actedout.
It might be three days.
What can you use to mark that?
What will be your stone thatyou can get?
What can you use as a marker sothat you have some sort of
(26:17):
remembrance for yourself?
Maybe there's something elsethat is meaningful for you to
use so that you remember, and Idon't mean it as a way of
counting right.
This isn't about oh, let mecount up the number of times
(26:37):
this is about.
Here's a significant momentthat I want to remember what God
did for me, and so you know,I've had clients who have gotten
rocks, and every time that theyhad a significant breakthrough,
(26:58):
they got that and they put itsomewhere where they could see
it and remember it.
And so maybe it's not a stone,maybe it's something else that
you choose to use, but I wouldencourage those who are
listening to really considerwhat it means for them.
What are those things they canuse to help them remember,
(27:19):
because sometimes we need helpremembering, because the enemy
certainly doesn't want you toremember what God has done.
He wants you to remember allthe sin that you've committed,
and so these are things thatalso help combat the voice of
the enemy.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I still have for those who are watching with us
on YouTube.
I don't know if it'll show upwell, but I still got this
little white stone that whenKyle and our former colleague
who's since retired Bob, led usthrough one of our programs here
at Regen, they had us, I think.
Did you guys actually mailthese stones to us?
I think you did, we did, andthey represent.
(27:57):
I've got it right in front ofme on my desk.
They represent the white stonewith the name that God gives us,
that only he knows, orsomething akin to that, right
Kyle.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, and so it's a great little, and earlier, by
the way, I was holding up across.
I'm realizing obviously mostpeople are just listening along,
not on YouTube, but, yeah,these things can be such great
symbols to remember what God islike, and so we ask you to
consider friends.
What can be your Ebenezer?
What are ways that you can markout milestones in your life
(28:30):
that God's helped you to?
But also what are ways you canmark out the fact that God
remembers you.
We said this last week Godremembered Alan, our founder.
He didn't forget about him inall of his years of sexual sin
and brokenness, and God stillremembered Alan.
Brokenness and God stillremembered Alan.
And is there, are there anymarkers like?
Are there any markers you canmake of God remembering you A
(28:56):
time where he showed up and itbrought you to tears, or you
could experience his presence oryou just had a powerful moment
of understanding his love?
What are ways that you canbring tactile things in that
remind you Just like I also haveknickknacks on my desk of great
trips you know from myhoneymoon, or other things like
that what are things that youcan tangibly have, or even
(29:18):
things that are out in naturethat can remind you like okay,
for some reason I had thismoment of prayer and I'm going
to allow this tree to remind me.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Like God met me under that tree, or God met me in
this place, in my house,something like that so that you
(29:57):
remember that moment, that Godused this person to minister to
me, to meet me, to say what Ineeded, to hear, to speak that
truth, and I think too, justusing scripture right here, in
Isaiah 49, verse 15, says andIsaiah 49, verse 15, says can a
woman forget her nursing child?
That she should have nocompassion on the son of her
womb?
Even these may forget, yet Iwill not forget you.
(30:21):
And so you have a promise fromGod that he won't forget you.
He has said that he would neverleave you, he would never
forsake you.
So you have a promise that he'snot going to forget you.
And you know what's cool?
The thing that he does forgetis your sins.
Right, they're as far as theEast is from, the West is from
(30:54):
the West, but yet he's not goingto forget you.
And so what are the ways thatyou can use some things to help
you always remember that heremembers you?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So beautiful.
You know, at our upcomingfundraising desserts, for the
first time ever, we're going tohave these interactive art
stations, things that connectwith things we've done with our
clients, things like pictures,or we might have sculptures.
There's going to be a wholevariety of things and this is
our way of entering into likeGod calls us to remember.
(31:26):
God calls us to allow thesethings to point us back to Him,
these milestones, these markers.
So, kyle, in light of all that,would you be willing to pray us
out?
Pray that those listening wouldbe able to remember all the
goodness of God in their livesand remember powerful works that
he's done.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Gracious God and Father.
Sure Gracious God and Father.
You have known us from thefoundations of the world, before
the world was even formed.
(32:07):
God, you, the memories thatthey have are always their own
sin or the sin that has beencommitted against them.
Father, I pray that you wouldlead them toward offering those
memories to you and asking youearnestly, god, to replace them
(32:27):
with all of the ways that theycan remember what you have done
and the ways that you haveremembered them.
And so, lord, I ask that youwould help them not to be
concerned with what that lookslike.
You know whatever thing worksfor them, lord, with what that
(32:51):
looks like.
You know whatever thing worksfor them, lord, and if that's
personal to them, then, god, youwill use that.
And so I'm so grateful, God,for all of those who are
listening who will be encouragedby this.
And God, help them to know thatyou even marked this time out
for them to hear it, and that isa way of you remembering them.
And so, lord, we entrust everyperson who will hear this
(33:15):
podcast, whether it's the dayit's released, weeks from then,
months from now, even years fromnow, god, we thank you that
you're going to use it to edifythem and to glorify yourself,
and I lift this prayer to you inthe name of your son Jesus
Christ.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Amen.
Thanks, Kyle.
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