May 13, 2025 • 33 mins
Have you ever wondered if freedom from sexual struggles is actually possible? This episode challenges the common belief that lust is simply "a lifelong battle" that Christians must endure.
Starting with the question—what happens when we forget what we truly are?—hosts Josh and James explore how our understanding of human sexuality has been distorted by both culture and limited gospel perspectives. They compare how differently we approach other struggles like anger or theft, where we expect real transformation, versus sexual integrity where we've normalized partial victory.
For anyone who has struggled with repeated sexual failures and wondered if real freedom is possible, this episode offers genuine hope. Not through trying harder, but through reconnecting with who you truly are in Christ. Jesus didn't just come to forgive your sexual sin—He came to restore your sexual integrity.
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So glad that you are joining us this week for the
podcast, because what we'retalking about today, and
actually over the next couple ofweeks as well, is so important
to me.
It has been such a key part ofmy own recovery journey and
taken me really further, so muchfurther than I thought I would
ever go in this journey, givingme a lot of freedom, radically
(00:22):
changed even my idea of whatsexual integrity is and how this
all works together.
So joining me today is JamesCraig, one of our spiritual
coaches and also our director ofprojects.
Hello everyone.
Yeah, james, good to have you.
James is in Pasadena, I'm inMaryland, so we're spanning the
(00:42):
country.
So if you're anywhere in thecountry right now listening to
this, we are surrounding you, weare, we're flanking you on on
both sides.
If you're outside of thecountry, we love you and the
Lord's got you, james.
I want to start with thisquestion and you can answer this
.
I certainly have my thoughtsabout this.
(01:11):
But what's?
What is your?
Is your like?
You grew up in among guys.
You grew up among men and women.
You grew up in a, in the, thissexually permissive age that we
live in.
Um, we're, we're differentgenerations, you and me.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s,right at the beginning of maybe
what people call purity culture.
Um, I think you grew up maybe Iwas like tail end of purity
sort of yeah, so if there's yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, but what's your, what isyour general sense for?
(01:31):
Uh, in in culture in general,but also among christians, and
maybe we answer differently forfor each of those.
Um, no, general general sense.
Culture, church, like howcommon is lust and how
acceptable is it?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
You know, I think when I was growing up it felt
like so taboo it felt it kind offelt like lust was like the
worst possible sin that could becommitted, so much so that in
the church it felt like there'sa lot of silence in churches I
was a part of and a lot of justlike we wouldn't really know how
(02:11):
to talk about this anyway, sowhy bring it up, even though you
know it was so pervasive?
And then in um man, in publicschools that I was part of, it
was like a hundred percentassumed that lust was just what
guys do, and actually I wouldn'tsay quite as much with with the
ladies that I knew andobviously I wasn't as privy to
(02:34):
everything with them.
But, um, but there was almostlike a we're gonna go tit for
tat if the men are doing allthis lust, like there's kind of
a game that was being playedalmost like of response, a call
and response, a very, you know,bad call and response, if you
will.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and probably same for me in the
church, largely silent, althoughwhen people talked about it,
when that kind of bridge wascrossed among Christian guys
that I knew cause I wasbefriending guys in this we
didn't talk to girls about this,um, I didn't as a kid, Um, but
(03:12):
when that bridge was crossed,there was also still typically
like, yeah, this is a sin, but,um, but it's an every every
guy's sin.
Actually, when I, early on inmy time, at regeneration even so
, I was in my 20s at that pointuh, the book by Fred Stoker and
Steve Arterburn came out everyman's battle and it was kind of
(03:32):
like, yep, cause it's everyman's, but like everybody
struggles with this and, um,even to this day, I think, in
church circles there's there'soften just kind of like a yeah,
you know, we got to stop withthis and this behavior.
Lust is going to be with us.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Um, even just this week I heard it's a lifelong
struggle and part of me was likeokay, I don't know this person
well enough to unpack that hereand now, but I wonder what they
mean by that Um yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that that's that
probably summarizes it.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
from among Christians it's a lifelong struggle and
certainly for those in recovery,there may be the sentiment of a
lifelong struggle and it is.
And that's such a key questionLike, what do you mean by
struggle?
What do you mean by that?
And that's what I want to getinto.
So here's the question I wantto pose to listeners.
You can think about thequestion we were just discussing
(04:23):
a little bit, but.
But just just put that in pausefor a moment and consider this.
And it's going to sound like a,a turn in a different direction
, but it's, it's just track ofme here.
What would happen to a society,what would happen to a, to a
country, to a people group, ifthey forgot what they are?
(04:46):
If they forgot what they are, Idon't know, I don't just mean,
like, if they forgot who theywere.
Like you know, I got amnesiaand I can't remember my name and
I can't remember my friends.
That would be significantenough.
And again, growing up in theseventies and eighties, like
made you think that amnesia wassomething that happened very,
very commonly because it was ina lot of movies and shows.
(05:07):
But it doesn't.
But, but we get enough of apicture like, yeah, that would
be really difficult if I didn'tremember my people, but not just
like who you are, but what youare and what would happen if we
forgot what we are.
And the reason I raised thequestion, I mean, it's hardly
(05:27):
hard to fathom even.
But the reason I raised thequestion is because I actually
believe in relationship to thetopic of lust, in the
relationship in relationship tothe topic of sexual integrity.
We actually live among thepeople who have forgotten what
we are and and to your point,james, about the idea of, well,
(05:49):
yeah, lust is a lifelongstruggle.
There's an assumption that somany Christians carry about what
we are, the fabric of what weare, the fabric of what it means
to be sexual, the fabric aboutwhat sex is, the fabric about
what sexual desire is that welive underneath these kind of
(06:13):
glass ceilings of expectationabout how far Christ might take
us, how far we might, whatfreedom might look like in our
lives based on having forgottenwhat in fact we are.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It already strikes meosh with that that like can
you imagine someone saying toyou, like I've got anger
problems.
You know I'm in my late 20s, Igot anger problems, but you know
it's a lifelong struggle, likeI'm gonna be bursting out at my
wife until we die?
You know that you'd be likeokay, like on one level there
(06:44):
might be some.
You know we all have to wrestlewith anger.
But like if you were still inthat exact same place 60 years
later with bursting out at yourspouse, I mean that would be
kind of a bizarre thing toassume about yourself.
Right?
That's just an example poppinginto my mind.
We don't probably do that withanger, but we do that with lust
that's great, great example.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, let's take another one.
Like, let's say um, somewhereearly in your teens you, you
started shoplifting and thenthat problem grew into something
more and more.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, Can you imagine .
And?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
and then you become a hedge fund manager.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And now you're not just kidding.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah Well, yeah.
So let's say you're, you knowyou're, you're stealing people's
money, you're stealing cars,whatever, like big, big time
stuff.
And you come to Christ you'relike, yeah, man, you know I've
given up that stuff, but youknow, from time to time I take a
candy bar.
You know, like I it's, it'sgoing to be a lifelong thing for
(07:39):
me.
Um man, we'd applaud, we'd say,hey, praise God, you're not
stealing cars anymore and you'renot robbing people of their,
their pensions.
And yet I don't think most ofus would be like, yeah, but you
know, it's all right If you, youknow everyone struggles with
stealing here and there.
It's like try a shirt on andwear it home without paying for
that.
You know, like we, we wouldn't,we wouldn't do that, but we,
but we do that with lust and Iand I think a chunk of it is
because we have forgotten whatin fact we are.
(08:01):
What in fact we are, we don'thave a problem saying we are, we
are not designed to takepeople's stuff and we wouldn't
be satisfied with like, yeah,you just take people's stuff.
As a matter of fact, part ofChristian teaching is you're not
just made not to take people'sstuff, you're actually made to
be generous with all of yourstuff, to give it to the Lord,
to give it to others who need.
And there's a great corollaryand we're going to get into that
(08:23):
later around the topic of lust.
So I've forgotten where we are.
So let's, let's, let's shiftgears and talk about Jesus here.
And this is one of the places,too, where I think, um, if
you're listening, uh, take hope,because Jesus has come.
And I think this is one of theplaces where I think it reveals
(08:44):
sometimes our own eclipsedversions of what the gospel is,
because when we think about thegospel, for example, as it's a
ticket of forgiveness.
You know, jesus is thepropitiation for our sins.
If that is our whole view ofwhat the gospel is, then I sin
but I'm forgiven.
I sin but I'm forgiven, I sinbut I'm forgiven, I sin but I'm
(09:06):
forgiven.
And that sets us up or canleave us in a place where we are
still doing the little thingsthat we do, maybe getting better
over time, but we're stillengaging in those things.
The gospel certainly includesthat Jesus is the sacrifice for
our sin.
He is the lamb of God who takesaway the sins of the world,
(09:27):
meaning, when we sin, he washesus clean of those sins.
But that's not all he is.
Another motif of the gospel isthat he is our example.
He shows us what it is to behuman.
He shows us actually what weare.
We have forgotten who we are.
So, with this motif that Jesusthis other part of the gospel
(09:50):
that Jesus also came to be anexample of what we are that
changes things for us Like.
How does that?
What does that mean for us whenit comes to this realm of like,
lust or, you know, stealing orwhatever Like, but we're talking
about lust, like.
So, james, what pops for you asyou think about like okay.
The gospel does include thatJesus is our sacrifice, but it
(10:11):
also includes that he is ourexample.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I remember it was a freshman year of college that I
was my life was being changedbecause I had never even heard
the term the gospel despitegrowing up in Christian settings
.
At least I don't rememberhearing it and I was being like
really transformed by the cross,like God, like no matter what
sin I bring to him.
I'd confess to my old mentorevery week and he would just
(10:35):
talk about God's love andforgiveness.
I was like what on earth isthis?
This doesn't make any sense.
So I'm being saturated withthat.
And then I did a deep divestudy this was back with
InterVarsity, which I was partof as a college student in the
Gospel of Mark.
And I remember thinking and Iactually asked one of the
facilitators, like if the crossis the only motif of the gospel,
(10:59):
like what does Jesus keepsaying when he keeps saying the
gospel of the kingdom?
Or like the good news is beingpreached, I'm like he hasn't
died yet and it does, I'massuming.
I mean part of it might be likeI am going to be going to die,
but it was like Whoa, there'ssomething more here.
And I remember John Mark Comer.
I recently heard him say thatthe gospels are the gospel, like
(11:21):
the four gospels are the gospelin a broad sense and it really
makes me think what you'resaying.
Like it was the teaching, itwas the healing, it was the
miracles, it was the care hegave for people, it was in some
sense the person of Jesushimself, but it was more than
just that incredibly importantheart of the gospel you might
(11:42):
argue of the cross, but it wasmore expansive.
So I've been on that journey oflike what on earth is this
thing that we keep calling thegospel, and I imagine many of
our listeners too like what doesit actually mean that?
Like there's good news for usin Jesus's life and his death
and his resurrection, but alsohis life, you know, and even his
(12:03):
birth Right.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I hope we'll get even in this
in this mini series.
I mean, I hope, if you listento our podcast regularly, that
you, you, you're, you'redrinking in and getting breath,
like taking deep breaths of someof the fullness of the gospel,
because it is so much andtheologians have different
perspectives, differentdenominations may highlight
different parts of the gospel.
(12:25):
We, I tend to think like, yeah,any, any part of the gospel,
any, anybody highlighting, like,what the gospel is like?
Yes and amen, it is that and itis that and it is that.
And I think we probably tend tominimize it too much and so I'm
not trying to say the gospel isonly these two things.
Jesus' sacrifice so we can beforgiven for our sins and he's
(12:48):
an example to us.
It's more than that, but it isat least in part.
Jesus comes to show us what weare, and we'll dig into that
more in the coming two weeks aswell.
To show us what we are, andwe'll dig into that more in the
coming two weeks as well.
But, coming right back to thisplace of lust, let's just look
at Jesus's life for a minute andconsider the reality that he
(13:11):
you can't read any of the fourgospels and go.
Yeah, I think he sees the worldlike I do.
I mean one of the things thatJesus, like, some of the things
he says, are very enigmatic.
People will ask him questionsthat seem rather direct and
he'll answer in a way thatsounds like he's answering a
different question altogether.
Um, I think about nicodemushere, who comes to him at night
and like he's, he's, he's, youknow, I hey, I get, you're a,
(13:34):
you're a, you're a man of god,because you can't perform these
things without, without that,but like, but, like, I'm just
trying to figure you out.
And then Jesus kind of getsinto this realm of like yeah,
well, you know, unless you'reborn again, you can't enter the
kingdom.
And and like, born again, what?
Like you know, what are wetalking about here?
And there are stranger thingsthan that that Jesus says places
(13:56):
where, like Jesus seems to seeor know or perceive things about
people that he has no, likeother people around him just
don't, don't catch, don't get.
I think about in John, whenactually this is many, multiple
times in the gospel.
But Jesus looks out at thecrowds and sees them as a sheep,
a sheep without a shepherd.
He's perceiving, he's seeingsomething about that group of
(14:19):
people that others around himare.
I think about um, uh, markwrites about Jesus seeing the,
the widow, dropping some coinsin the um, in the collection
plate or whatever the equivalentwas in the in the temple.
And Jesus sees her and I thinkMark I think it's Mark, it might
be one of the other gospelwriters calls his disciples over
(14:39):
and says and points her out andsays I'm telling you, this
woman gave more than everybodyelse.
So she gave, like you know, twocoins.
Other people are given lotsmore, but to Jesus, his eyes,
she gave more than everybodyelse.
So so here's my point Jesussees things differently than we
(15:01):
do right out of the gates andfor for much of our lives.
If he is an example, if he isthe example of this is what you
are then he's.
This is not just the exceptionto the rule.
He is the example of ofhumanity, example of of humanity
(15:23):
.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
We are meant to see what he sees and how he sees,
and this has everything to dowith our own battle with
pornography or lust or whateverelse we're dealing with in that
regard so some of what it soundslike you're saying is, excuse
me, some of what you're saying,I think, is more than just this
propitiation, more than just asacrifice, more than just this
propitiation, more than just asacrifice, more than just you
fall so short and you need help.
(15:44):
There's also this element oflike.
I'm modeling to you all what aman truly was made to be.
I'm modeling to you the truthof, of, of man, of woman, like,
in the sense of like.
This is what a human life issupposed to look like.
Yes, it might be hard for someof us to get our heads around
(16:05):
like wait, but he's God and soyou know, doesn't he kind of
live on a higher plane of purity, virtue or however you want to
think about it?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah and yes.
And our creeds declare thatJesus became human, not appeared
human, not pretended to behuman, not showed up kind of in
human skin to get close to us,but in fact became human, human
(16:45):
skin to get close to us, but infact became human.
And we read out of his own lipsthat he is going to return.
There is something profoundabout Jesus' incarnation that is
like I actually.
I was emailing a pastor a fewyears back as we were kind of
approaching, we were workingthrough Advent, and I said to
him hey, as crazy as theresurrection is, as hard as that
(17:06):
is to believe, that it actuallyliterally happened.
The thing that is so much moredifficult for me to believe and
I literally can't wrap my brainaround it.
My brain is too small, can'twrap my brain around it, my
brain is too small.
It is the incarnation that God,the creator of the universe,
the infinite one, the eternalone, the all powerful one, the
(17:30):
omnipotent one, the omniscientone, became a human person.
That is unfathomable to me,like how could God possibly fit
into the frame of a mortal wholived in the middle East in the
first century, like it?
It doesn't make any sense.
And one of the creeds is, uh,like the apostles creed, the
nicene creed.
They make these declarationslike, yeah, um, this, this is
(17:51):
true, and they kind of step away.
They don't try to explain itliterally.
I mean not that those who werethe church fathers didn't try to
unpack that stuff a little bitmore, but like there is a
mystery there and, um, but, andI don't want it, we could, we
could spend gobs of time talkingabout that and and you know
volumes of of books, but for ourpurposes, in this podcast, I I
(18:13):
want to highlight, like, wherewe kind of look at Jesus as the
exception to the rule and wethink, well, the reason that he
was able to sit and and not lustafter the woman who was caught
in adultery, even though she mayhave just had like a sheet
around her or something, and andher sin is being exposed and
people are naming, in fact, infront of her that she, we
literally just brought her fromhaving sex, like she was
(18:34):
literally just having sex andmen's minds in the room and
women's minds in the spacemight've been like, oh my gosh,
and kind of they're envisioningstuff, and some of them are
probably, you know, if they're,if they've got their own sexual
sin struggles, might be checkingher out in an inappropriate way
, on and on and on.
But if, if we really believethat Jesus there treated her
with dignity, he did not lustafter her, he looked at her in
(18:55):
the eyes and loved her like thatif we think of that, as that's
the exception we could never dothat Then we are missing a huge
spectrum of what the gospel isactually meant to bring us.
And it's, and it includes theexample piece.
It also includes this thegospel means that that where we
have separated ourselves fromGod through sin, um, jesus has
(19:18):
reunited humanity with God.
We have faith in him.
That means we are actuallyreunited.
So the one way to think aboutit is in Genesis 2, god breathes
his breath of life into thisclay figure he's created and
that figure now becomes a livingbeing.
So, right from the get-go, weknow there's something in
(19:39):
humanity's design that is meantto that only exists in union
with God.
And when Adam and Eve sinned,they ruptured that and the light
started going out in all ofcreation and certainly in them.
We're going to talk about thata little bit later in one of the
other podcasts.
Um, but when Jesus comes ontothe scene, he is the second Adam
(20:01):
.
So we're the first Adamunplugged us from, from God, the
father, from God's spirit.
The second Adam restores that.
That's why he's Emmanuel, godwith us, not just around us, not
just nearby, not justaccessible, but actually God
with us.
Um, and there's so many placesin scripture that point to this
Um, uh, if anyone is, is is inChrist.
(20:24):
What does that mean?
We're in Christ.
Paul talks about where ourbodies are, the temple of the
Holy spirit.
Um, uh, he.
He compares, uh, union withone's bride we're gonna talk
about this too uh, to union withGod spiritually.
Union with one's bride um,we're going to talk about this
too to union with Godspiritually.
Union with one's bride incovenant and sexually is a
picture of union with Godspiritually and in covenant.
(20:46):
Anyway, I'm getting ahead ofourselves here.
But all this to say that thisis another part of the gospel.
So if we look at Jesus as theexample of what we are meant to
be and we go, how can that be?
Well, how it can be is becausehe, this other part of the
gospel, which is he, is.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
He has united himself , his godhood, his divinity, to
our humanity so that we might berestored to who we are actually
, what we were actually createdto be so one of the things
you're saying here is that, yes,just in a purely natural life,
you might actually really say inour fallen state, you could
expect someone to be dealingwith lust or theft or whatever
(21:26):
else to the end of their days,whether maybe internally,
externally, whatever that lookslike of his spirit.
Because the spirit, the godhimself, is living in christians
.
He's bringing his fruit, he'sbringing his power, he's
bringing his love to bearthrough their lives.
(21:47):
And that actually takes us backto the original design of like.
His spirit was in us and thatwas what we lived by that.
We lived by him from the startand then the fall, you know,
separated us from that.
But Jesus is restoring that sothat we can actually live in
such a way that is like him.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So let's just take those twomotifs of the gospel.
One is the sacrifice of Jesusforgives us of our sin, and this
other is that God has reunitedhumanity with himself.
They might be fully alive againand fully what they're designed
to be, what they were alwaysmeant to be again.
And listen to Jesus's words atthe beginning of the gospel,
(22:31):
when he says repent, repent, um,and believe the gospel.
Repent and believe the gospel.
Believe the good news, um andbelieve the gospel.
Repent and believe the gospel,believe the good news.
Well, what does that mean?
If he, if it, if it's justyou're forgiven, then why the
repentance?
Why the turn from your evilways?
(22:51):
What is, what is what part doesthat play Like?
Repent because you're forgiven,um, and some people would
suggest well, because you're,you're grateful that you're
forgiven.
Well sure, sure, but there's somuch more than that Repent.
You can repent because of thegospel, because I am here,
because you are now able toreconnect with God in an
(23:12):
incredible way.
We might even say that ourcapacity to repent itself comes
from the gospel, not just.
You know, we repent into thegospel.
We can repent because of thegospel.
We actually have the capacityto turn away from our sin,
because of the gospel.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
And there's something about this idea of repentance
too is like I just keeppicturing.
I think there's an old, maybemobile game or something like
that, where you turn pipes sothat the water can flow through.
You know, like a puzzle, apuzzle game, if you can picture
that.
And it's almost like I'mpicturing as you're saying, the
word repent, it's like thisturns, so that his spirit, so
that his living water can onceagain flow through us, so we can
(23:53):
become conduits of, of him, notjust so that we don't end up in
eternal hell, but it's so thatwe can actually, as he would say
, maybe like your kingdom, comeon earth as it is in heaven,
like being conduits of hiskingdom, of his love, of his
nature I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I love that.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
So I've got this strange.
Um, there's, there's a I don'tremember what the nerve is
called, but this nerve in my armthat's, um, it was described to
me that for some reason it'skind of on the on the wrong side
of a bone or something, I can'tremember.
But, um, but if I sleep with myarm tucked under me like this
(24:33):
if you're, if you're watchingthe video, you can see what I'm
doing but like, if I sleepbasically with, uh, with my arms
pulled into my, into my chest,especially if I'm on my stomach,
then it pinches that nerve andI'll wake up in the middle of
the night with no feeling in myhand.
I mean, it's almost like myhand is dead.
It's a, it's a very strange uh.
If you've ever had surgery onpart of your body and they've
done a nerve blocker, you knowwhat I'm talking about.
(24:56):
I mean it almost feels likethere's this dead limb attached
to me and when it first happenedto me, it scared the bejeebers
out of me because I didn't knowthat it was temporary.
I thought like I had something,you know something, my arm had
died or something.
Um, really like having this deadlimb and I can't.
I can't lift it, I can't moveit, I can't do anything with it.
All I can do is like I can, Igrab it and even with my other
hand I can't feel in that arm.
(25:16):
I can feel with one hand, butnot I can't feel being felt,
which is this strange thing, andthat's kind of the picture I
get, even as you're describingthat like so what I, what I have
to do, the only thing I can dois to straighten my arm and then
to wait, and as I wait, the,the feeling comes back in my arm
, my mobility, my ability to usethe, the muscles in the arm
(25:36):
come back and my ability to feelagain comes like an arm.
And I think that's, that'sanother picture.
What you're describing, withthe kind of straightening the
condit you repent, is like likelet your arm be straight, that
the, the life of god, thefeeling of god, the belief of
god, the power of god can flowthrough you like you were meant
to live.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Well, and I can't help but notice the parallel of,
like we talked about this inour awakening program.
But that whole idea of leprosyis actually a nerve disease of
some sort, where you losefeeling and you end up with
infections because you've lostfeeling.
And so many of us want to becomfortably numb, right, as that
great Pink Floyd song calls it.
So many of us, you know, wantto just draw ourselves into our
(26:17):
screens and block out thefeeling.
But there's actually somethingprofound about like you
recognize what it means to notfeel.
You really want to get feelingback to your arm, but what does
that mean?
That means that this arm couldnow bump into a cabinet and feel
hurt, you know, right after youget out of bed or whatever.
And it's like something isdrawing to my heart, like man
(26:39):
God's actually calling us to bepeople who feel.
That's maybe part of whatrepentance is to feel what he
feels, not just do what he does,but like having the heart of
Jesus, having compassion, having, I mean he took on through his
incarnation.
Like you're talking about theability to physically feel
crucifixion, to physically feeltorture, to mentally and
(27:00):
physically feel the sexual abuseof being put naked on a cross,
like I don't know.
It's just pretty profound thatlike the invitation of
Christians is not repent, so youend up in eternal bliss and
like just grit your teeth untilyou get there.
It's like there's actually partof carrying our cross, might be
(27:20):
feeling what he feels, so wecan love as he loves yeah, yeah,
and we're gonna get into thatmore tomorrow too, or next week.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
The, the um.
I love that.
James is so good and he felt,uh, sexual arousal in his body.
I mean so, all the sensors thatwe feel in our genitals or in
our body that are so powerful.
Jesus knows what that feelslike, um, and that is important
for where we're going with this.
But let me, so, let me land theplane for this week and I hope,
(27:50):
if you're listening, um, Iguess I do want to say this.
I think a lot of us have heardsomething similar to this for a
long time.
Like Jesus gives us the powerto stop sinning.
We're going to unpack more whatwe mean by this, because a lot
of us who have tried to stop oursexual sins, tried to stop
lusting, tried to stop lookingat porn, tried to stop
(28:11):
masturbating, tried to stophooking up whatever it is for
you listeners, like we've heardthat message and we felt like,
oh well, something must be wrong.
Maybe I'm not a Christian,maybe that's not true, maybe
there's something different orwrong with me.
That's not wrong for otherpeople, maybe I'm doing this
whole Christianity thing wrong,and then we can tend to move
(28:32):
into the space of eitherdespairing and we give up, or we
try to work extra hard, work,work, work, and and there is,
there is both like rest and workinvolved in this process.
We'll get more into that alittle bit tomorrow or next week
, sorry, but but just hang on,come back, because we're not
just talking about like hey,some Strange out there, it's
(28:54):
supposed to happen, but but how,like, if I'm plugged in, how do
I plug in Like, um, uh, sowe'll, we'll kind of get back to
some of that, but let me, letme wrap with this.
I want to come back to this idea.
Take hope in the idea, takehope in the truth that Jesus
came to give an example, not anexample of like you know, do as
(29:16):
I do and you'll become like Ibecome.
There is something to that, forsure, for sure, but more so
that, as you see the life ofJesus, dare to believe that part
of the reason he has come toshow himself to you, to show you
what a real human person is,what you really are to you, to
(29:38):
show you what a real humanperson is, what you really are,
is because he wants you todesire to become what a human
really is.
He wants you to have anincrease in, like, wait, I can
become that.
I can become a person who looksat people like that, who is
able to do that, to live likethat, to relate like that,
really just park there for aminute.
(29:58):
So that idea of, like you know,jesus saw things that other
people didn't see.
Yeah, you're designed to seethings that Jesus sees.
You're designed to seedifferently and more than you've
seen before.
Um, this, I believe is is iswhat Jesus meant when he
announced his, his gospel, byquoting from Isaiah, and he said
(30:20):
and I'm going to truncate thepassage here but he said I have
come to restore sight to theblind, and if lust is one thing,
it is blindness.
It is not seeing someone fully,and we're going to talk more
about that next week.
All right, come back for moreJames.
(30:42):
Any, any last questions,thoughts, anything I'm leaving
on the table that we shouldn'tas we wrap up this week.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
No, I'd love to just say a prayer, though, over those
who are listening.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, please do, and us too.
We need this as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, lord, I just pray, jesus, that you would give
us your eyes to see.
Give us even that desire, likethat great prayer from St
Francis Xavier.
Grant, oh God, that we maydesire you and, desiring you,
seek you and seeking you, findyou and finding you, be
satisfied in you forever, andfinding you be satisfied in you
(31:15):
forever.
Jesus, help us to believe thatyour way is actually the way of
true happiness, true joy, truesatisfaction, and may we desire,
lord, josh and I and all thoselistening to see as you see,
help us, show us the way.
Pray this in the name of theFather and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Amen.
So glad that you are joining us this week for the
podcast, because what we'retalking about today, and
actually over the next couple ofweeks as well, is so important
to me.
It has been such a key part ofmy own recovery journey and
taken me really further, so muchfurther than I thought I would
ever go in this journey, givingme a lot of freedom, radically
(00:22):
changed even my idea of whatsexual integrity is and how this
all works together.
So joining me today is JamesCraig, one of our spiritual
coaches and also our director ofprojects.
Hello everyone.
Yeah, james, good to have you.
James is in Pasadena, I'm inMaryland, so we're spanning the
(00:42):
country.
So if you're anywhere in thecountry right now listening to
this, we are surrounding you, weare, we're flanking you on on
both sides.
If you're outside of thecountry, we love you and the
Lord's got you, james.
I want to start with thisquestion and you can answer this
.
I certainly have my thoughtsabout this.
(01:11):
But what's?
What is your?
Is your like?
You grew up in among guys.
You grew up among men and women.
You grew up in a, in the, thissexually permissive age that we
live in.
Um, we're, we're differentgenerations, you and me.
I grew up in the 70s and 80s,right at the beginning of maybe
what people call purity culture.
Um, I think you grew up maybe Iwas like tail end of purity
sort of yeah, so if there's yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, but what's your, what isyour general sense for?
(01:31):
Uh, in in culture in general,but also among christians, and
maybe we answer differently forfor each of those.
Um, no, general general sense.
Culture, church, like howcommon is lust and how
acceptable is it?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
You know, I think when I was growing up it felt
like so taboo it felt it kind offelt like lust was like the
worst possible sin that could becommitted, so much so that in
the church it felt like there'sa lot of silence in churches I
was a part of and a lot of justlike we wouldn't really know how
(02:11):
to talk about this anyway, sowhy bring it up, even though you
know it was so pervasive?
And then in um man, in publicschools that I was part of, it
was like a hundred percentassumed that lust was just what
guys do, and actually I wouldn'tsay quite as much with with the
ladies that I knew andobviously I wasn't as privy to
(02:34):
everything with them.
But, um, but there was almostlike a we're gonna go tit for
tat if the men are doing allthis lust, like there's kind of
a game that was being playedalmost like of response, a call
and response, a very, you know,bad call and response, if you
will.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and probably same for me in the
church, largely silent, althoughwhen people talked about it,
when that kind of bridge wascrossed among Christian guys
that I knew cause I wasbefriending guys in this we
didn't talk to girls about this,um, I didn't as a kid, Um, but
(03:12):
when that bridge was crossed,there was also still typically
like, yeah, this is a sin, but,um, but it's an every every
guy's sin.
Actually, when I, early on inmy time, at regeneration even so
, I was in my 20s at that pointuh, the book by Fred Stoker and
Steve Arterburn came out everyman's battle and it was kind of
(03:32):
like, yep, cause it's everyman's, but like everybody
struggles with this and, um,even to this day, I think, in
church circles there's there'soften just kind of like a yeah,
you know, we got to stop withthis and this behavior.
Lust is going to be with us.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Um, even just this week I heard it's a lifelong
struggle and part of me was likeokay, I don't know this person
well enough to unpack that hereand now, but I wonder what they
mean by that Um yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that that's that
probably summarizes it.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
from among Christians it's a lifelong struggle and
certainly for those in recovery,there may be the sentiment of a
lifelong struggle and it is.
And that's such a key questionLike, what do you mean by
struggle?
What do you mean by that?
And that's what I want to getinto.
So here's the question I wantto pose to listeners.
You can think about thequestion we were just discussing
(04:23):
a little bit, but.
But just just put that in pausefor a moment and consider this.
And it's going to sound like a,a turn in a different direction
, but it's, it's just track ofme here.
What would happen to a society,what would happen to a, to a
country, to a people group, ifthey forgot what they are?
(04:46):
If they forgot what they are, Idon't know, I don't just mean,
like, if they forgot who theywere.
Like you know, I got amnesiaand I can't remember my name and
I can't remember my friends.
That would be significantenough.
And again, growing up in theseventies and eighties, like
made you think that amnesia wassomething that happened very,
very commonly because it was ina lot of movies and shows.
(05:07):
But it doesn't.
But, but we get enough of apicture like, yeah, that would
be really difficult if I didn'tremember my people, but not just
like who you are, but what youare and what would happen if we
forgot what we are.
And the reason I raised thequestion, I mean, it's hardly
(05:27):
hard to fathom even.
But the reason I raised thequestion is because I actually
believe in relationship to thetopic of lust, in the
relationship in relationship tothe topic of sexual integrity.
We actually live among thepeople who have forgotten what
we are and and to your point,james, about the idea of, well,
(05:49):
yeah, lust is a lifelongstruggle.
There's an assumption that somany Christians carry about what
we are, the fabric of what weare, the fabric of what it means
to be sexual, the fabric aboutwhat sex is, the fabric about
what sexual desire is that welive underneath these kind of
(06:13):
glass ceilings of expectationabout how far Christ might take
us, how far we might, whatfreedom might look like in our
lives based on having forgottenwhat in fact we are.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It already strikes meosh with that that like can
you imagine someone saying toyou, like I've got anger
problems.
You know I'm in my late 20s, Igot anger problems, but you know
it's a lifelong struggle, likeI'm gonna be bursting out at my
wife until we die?
You know that you'd be likeokay, like on one level there
(06:44):
might be some.
You know we all have to wrestlewith anger.
But like if you were still inthat exact same place 60 years
later with bursting out at yourspouse, I mean that would be
kind of a bizarre thing toassume about yourself.
Right?
That's just an example poppinginto my mind.
We don't probably do that withanger, but we do that with lust
that's great, great example.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, let's take another one.
Like, let's say um, somewhereearly in your teens you, you
started shoplifting and thenthat problem grew into something
more and more.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, Can you imagine .
And?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
and then you become a hedge fund manager.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
And now you're not just kidding.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah Well, yeah.
So let's say you're, you knowyou're, you're stealing people's
money, you're stealing cars,whatever, like big, big time
stuff.
And you come to Christ you'relike, yeah, man, you know I've
given up that stuff, but youknow, from time to time I take a
candy bar.
You know, like I it's, it'sgoing to be a lifelong thing for
(07:39):
me.
Um man, we'd applaud, we'd say,hey, praise God, you're not
stealing cars anymore and you'renot robbing people of their,
their pensions.
And yet I don't think most ofus would be like, yeah, but you
know, it's all right If you, youknow everyone struggles with
stealing here and there.
It's like try a shirt on andwear it home without paying for
that.
You know, like we, we wouldn't,we wouldn't do that, but we,
but we do that with lust and Iand I think a chunk of it is
because we have forgotten whatin fact we are.
(08:01):
What in fact we are, we don'thave a problem saying we are, we
are not designed to takepeople's stuff and we wouldn't
be satisfied with like, yeah,you just take people's stuff.
As a matter of fact, part ofChristian teaching is you're not
just made not to take people'sstuff, you're actually made to
be generous with all of yourstuff, to give it to the Lord,
to give it to others who need.
And there's a great corollaryand we're going to get into that
(08:23):
later around the topic of lust.
So I've forgotten where we are.
So let's, let's, let's shiftgears and talk about Jesus here.
And this is one of the places,too, where I think, um, if
you're listening, uh, take hope,because Jesus has come.
And I think this is one of theplaces where I think it reveals
(08:44):
sometimes our own eclipsedversions of what the gospel is,
because when we think about thegospel, for example, as it's a
ticket of forgiveness.
You know, jesus is thepropitiation for our sins.
If that is our whole view ofwhat the gospel is, then I sin
but I'm forgiven.
I sin but I'm forgiven, I sinbut I'm forgiven, I sin but I'm
(09:06):
forgiven.
And that sets us up or canleave us in a place where we are
still doing the little thingsthat we do, maybe getting better
over time, but we're stillengaging in those things.
The gospel certainly includesthat Jesus is the sacrifice for
our sin.
He is the lamb of God who takesaway the sins of the world,
(09:27):
meaning, when we sin, he washesus clean of those sins.
But that's not all he is.
Another motif of the gospel isthat he is our example.
He shows us what it is to behuman.
He shows us actually what weare.
We have forgotten who we are.
So, with this motif that Jesusthis other part of the gospel
(09:50):
that Jesus also came to be anexample of what we are that
changes things for us Like.
How does that?
What does that mean for us whenit comes to this realm of like,
lust or, you know, stealing orwhatever Like, but we're talking
about lust, like.
So, james, what pops for you asyou think about like okay.
The gospel does include thatJesus is our sacrifice, but it
(10:11):
also includes that he is ourexample.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I remember it was a freshman year of college that I
was my life was being changedbecause I had never even heard
the term the gospel despitegrowing up in Christian settings
.
At least I don't rememberhearing it and I was being like
really transformed by the cross,like God, like no matter what
sin I bring to him.
I'd confess to my old mentorevery week and he would just
(10:35):
talk about God's love andforgiveness.
I was like what on earth isthis?
This doesn't make any sense.
So I'm being saturated withthat.
And then I did a deep divestudy this was back with
InterVarsity, which I was partof as a college student in the
Gospel of Mark.
And I remember thinking and Iactually asked one of the
facilitators, like if the crossis the only motif of the gospel,
(10:59):
like what does Jesus keepsaying when he keeps saying the
gospel of the kingdom?
Or like the good news is beingpreached, I'm like he hasn't
died yet and it does, I'massuming.
I mean part of it might be likeI am going to be going to die,
but it was like Whoa, there'ssomething more here.
And I remember John Mark Comer.
I recently heard him say thatthe gospels are the gospel, like
(11:21):
the four gospels are the gospelin a broad sense and it really
makes me think what you'resaying.
Like it was the teaching, itwas the healing, it was the
miracles, it was the care hegave for people, it was in some
sense the person of Jesushimself, but it was more than
just that incredibly importantheart of the gospel you might
(11:42):
argue of the cross, but it wasmore expansive.
So I've been on that journey oflike what on earth is this
thing that we keep calling thegospel, and I imagine many of
our listeners too like what doesit actually mean that?
Like there's good news for usin Jesus's life and his death
and his resurrection, but alsohis life, you know, and even his
(12:03):
birth Right.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I hope we'll get even in this
in this mini series.
I mean, I hope, if you listento our podcast regularly, that
you, you, you're, you'redrinking in and getting breath,
like taking deep breaths of someof the fullness of the gospel,
because it is so much andtheologians have different
perspectives, differentdenominations may highlight
different parts of the gospel.
(12:25):
We, I tend to think like, yeah,any, any part of the gospel,
any, anybody highlighting, like,what the gospel is like?
Yes and amen, it is that and itis that and it is that.
And I think we probably tend tominimize it too much and so I'm
not trying to say the gospel isonly these two things.
Jesus' sacrifice so we can beforgiven for our sins and he's
(12:48):
an example to us.
It's more than that, but it isat least in part.
Jesus comes to show us what weare, and we'll dig into that
more in the coming two weeks aswell.
To show us what we are, andwe'll dig into that more in the
coming two weeks as well.
But, coming right back to thisplace of lust, let's just look
at Jesus's life for a minute andconsider the reality that he
(13:11):
you can't read any of the fourgospels and go.
Yeah, I think he sees the worldlike I do.
I mean one of the things thatJesus, like, some of the things
he says, are very enigmatic.
People will ask him questionsthat seem rather direct and
he'll answer in a way thatsounds like he's answering a
different question altogether.
Um, I think about nicodemushere, who comes to him at night
and like he's, he's, he's, youknow, I hey, I get, you're a,
(13:34):
you're a, you're a man of god,because you can't perform these
things without, without that,but like, but, like, I'm just
trying to figure you out.
And then Jesus kind of getsinto this realm of like yeah,
well, you know, unless you'reborn again, you can't enter the
kingdom.
And and like, born again, what?
Like you know, what are wetalking about here?
And there are stranger thingsthan that that Jesus says places
(13:56):
where, like Jesus seems to seeor know or perceive things about
people that he has no, likeother people around him just
don't, don't catch, don't get.
I think about in John, whenactually this is many, multiple
times in the gospel.
But Jesus looks out at thecrowds and sees them as a sheep,
a sheep without a shepherd.
He's perceiving, he's seeingsomething about that group of
(14:19):
people that others around himare.
I think about um, uh, markwrites about Jesus seeing the,
the widow, dropping some coinsin the um, in the collection
plate or whatever the equivalentwas in the in the temple.
And Jesus sees her and I thinkMark I think it's Mark, it might
be one of the other gospelwriters calls his disciples over
(14:39):
and says and points her out andsays I'm telling you, this
woman gave more than everybodyelse.
So she gave, like you know, twocoins.
Other people are given lotsmore, but to Jesus, his eyes,
she gave more than everybodyelse.
So so here's my point Jesussees things differently than we
(15:01):
do right out of the gates andfor for much of our lives.
If he is an example, if he isthe example of this is what you
are then he's.
This is not just the exceptionto the rule.
He is the example of ofhumanity, example of of humanity
(15:23):
.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
We are meant to see what he sees and how he sees,
and this has everything to dowith our own battle with
pornography or lust or whateverelse we're dealing with in that
regard so some of what it soundslike you're saying is, excuse
me, some of what you're saying,I think, is more than just this
propitiation, more than just asacrifice, more than just this
propitiation, more than just asacrifice, more than just you
fall so short and you need help.
(15:44):
There's also this element oflike.
I'm modeling to you all what aman truly was made to be.
I'm modeling to you the truthof, of, of man, of woman, like,
in the sense of like.
This is what a human life issupposed to look like.
Yes, it might be hard for someof us to get our heads around
(16:05):
like wait, but he's God and soyou know, doesn't he kind of
live on a higher plane of purity, virtue or however you want to
think about it?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah and yes.
And our creeds declare thatJesus became human, not appeared
human, not pretended to behuman, not showed up kind of in
human skin to get close to us,but in fact became human, human
(16:45):
skin to get close to us, but infact became human.
And we read out of his own lipsthat he is going to return.
There is something profoundabout Jesus' incarnation that is
like I actually.
I was emailing a pastor a fewyears back as we were kind of
approaching, we were workingthrough Advent, and I said to
him hey, as crazy as theresurrection is, as hard as that
(17:06):
is to believe, that it actuallyliterally happened.
The thing that is so much moredifficult for me to believe and
I literally can't wrap my brainaround it.
My brain is too small, can'twrap my brain around it, my
brain is too small.
It is the incarnation that God,the creator of the universe,
the infinite one, the eternalone, the all powerful one, the
(17:30):
omnipotent one, the omniscientone, became a human person.
That is unfathomable to me,like how could God possibly fit
into the frame of a mortal wholived in the middle East in the
first century, like it?
It doesn't make any sense.
And one of the creeds is, uh,like the apostles creed, the
nicene creed.
They make these declarationslike, yeah, um, this, this is
(17:51):
true, and they kind of step away.
They don't try to explain itliterally.
I mean not that those who werethe church fathers didn't try to
unpack that stuff a little bitmore, but like there is a
mystery there and, um, but, andI don't want it, we could, we
could spend gobs of time talkingabout that and and you know
volumes of of books, but for ourpurposes, in this podcast, I I
(18:13):
want to highlight, like, wherewe kind of look at Jesus as the
exception to the rule and wethink, well, the reason that he
was able to sit and and not lustafter the woman who was caught
in adultery, even though she mayhave just had like a sheet
around her or something, and andher sin is being exposed and
people are naming, in fact, infront of her that she, we
literally just brought her fromhaving sex, like she was
(18:34):
literally just having sex andmen's minds in the room and
women's minds in the spacemight've been like, oh my gosh,
and kind of they're envisioningstuff, and some of them are
probably, you know, if they're,if they've got their own sexual
sin struggles, might be checkingher out in an inappropriate way
, on and on and on.
But if, if we really believethat Jesus there treated her
with dignity, he did not lustafter her, he looked at her in
(18:55):
the eyes and loved her like thatif we think of that, as that's
the exception we could never dothat Then we are missing a huge
spectrum of what the gospel isactually meant to bring us.
And it's, and it includes theexample piece.
It also includes this thegospel means that that where we
have separated ourselves fromGod through sin, um, jesus has
(19:18):
reunited humanity with God.
We have faith in him.
That means we are actuallyreunited.
So the one way to think aboutit is in Genesis 2, god breathes
his breath of life into thisclay figure he's created and
that figure now becomes a livingbeing.
So, right from the get-go, weknow there's something in
(19:39):
humanity's design that is meantto that only exists in union
with God.
And when Adam and Eve sinned,they ruptured that and the light
started going out in all ofcreation and certainly in them.
We're going to talk about thata little bit later in one of the
other podcasts.
Um, but when Jesus comes ontothe scene, he is the second Adam
(20:01):
.
So we're the first Adamunplugged us from, from God, the
father, from God's spirit.
The second Adam restores that.
That's why he's Emmanuel, godwith us, not just around us, not
just nearby, not justaccessible, but actually God
with us.
Um, and there's so many placesin scripture that point to this
Um, uh, if anyone is, is is inChrist.
(20:24):
What does that mean?
We're in Christ.
Paul talks about where ourbodies are, the temple of the
Holy spirit.
Um, uh, he.
He compares, uh, union withone's bride we're gonna talk
about this too uh, to union withGod spiritually.
Union with one's bride um,we're going to talk about this
too to union with Godspiritually.
Union with one's bride incovenant and sexually is a
picture of union with Godspiritually and in covenant.
(20:46):
Anyway, I'm getting ahead ofourselves here.
But all this to say that thisis another part of the gospel.
So if we look at Jesus as theexample of what we are meant to
be and we go, how can that be?
Well, how it can be is becausehe, this other part of the
gospel, which is he, is.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
He has united himself , his godhood, his divinity, to
our humanity so that we might berestored to who we are actually
, what we were actually createdto be so one of the things
you're saying here is that, yes,just in a purely natural life,
you might actually really say inour fallen state, you could
expect someone to be dealingwith lust or theft or whatever
(21:26):
else to the end of their days,whether maybe internally,
externally, whatever that lookslike of his spirit.
Because the spirit, the godhimself, is living in christians
.
He's bringing his fruit, he'sbringing his power, he's
bringing his love to bearthrough their lives.
(21:47):
And that actually takes us backto the original design of like.
His spirit was in us and thatwas what we lived by that.
We lived by him from the startand then the fall, you know,
separated us from that.
But Jesus is restoring that sothat we can actually live in
such a way that is like him.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So let's just take those twomotifs of the gospel.
One is the sacrifice of Jesusforgives us of our sin, and this
other is that God has reunitedhumanity with himself.
They might be fully alive againand fully what they're designed
to be, what they were alwaysmeant to be again.
And listen to Jesus's words atthe beginning of the gospel,
(22:31):
when he says repent, repent, um,and believe the gospel.
Repent and believe the gospel.
Believe the good news, um andbelieve the gospel.
Repent and believe the gospel,believe the good news.
Well, what does that mean?
If he, if it, if it's justyou're forgiven, then why the
repentance?
Why the turn from your evilways?
(22:51):
What is, what is what part doesthat play Like?
Repent because you're forgiven,um, and some people would
suggest well, because you're,you're grateful that you're
forgiven.
Well sure, sure, but there's somuch more than that Repent.
You can repent because of thegospel, because I am here,
because you are now able toreconnect with God in an
(23:12):
incredible way.
We might even say that ourcapacity to repent itself comes
from the gospel, not just.
You know, we repent into thegospel.
We can repent because of thegospel.
We actually have the capacityto turn away from our sin,
because of the gospel.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
And there's something about this idea of repentance
too is like I just keeppicturing.
I think there's an old, maybemobile game or something like
that, where you turn pipes sothat the water can flow through.
You know, like a puzzle, apuzzle game, if you can picture
that.
And it's almost like I'mpicturing as you're saying, the
word repent, it's like thisturns, so that his spirit, so
that his living water can onceagain flow through us, so we can
(23:53):
become conduits of, of him, notjust so that we don't end up in
eternal hell, but it's so thatwe can actually, as he would say
, maybe like your kingdom, comeon earth as it is in heaven,
like being conduits of hiskingdom, of his love, of his
nature I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
I love that.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
So I've got this strange.
Um, there's, there's a I don'tremember what the nerve is
called, but this nerve in my armthat's, um, it was described to
me that for some reason it'skind of on the on the wrong side
of a bone or something, I can'tremember.
But, um, but if I sleep with myarm tucked under me like this
(24:33):
if you're, if you're watchingthe video, you can see what I'm
doing but like, if I sleepbasically with, uh, with my arms
pulled into my, into my chest,especially if I'm on my stomach,
then it pinches that nerve andI'll wake up in the middle of
the night with no feeling in myhand.
I mean, it's almost like myhand is dead.
It's a, it's a very strange uh.
If you've ever had surgery onpart of your body and they've
done a nerve blocker, you knowwhat I'm talking about.
(24:56):
I mean it almost feels likethere's this dead limb attached
to me and when it first happenedto me, it scared the bejeebers
out of me because I didn't knowthat it was temporary.
I thought like I had something,you know something, my arm had
died or something.
Um, really like having this deadlimb and I can't.
I can't lift it, I can't moveit, I can't do anything with it.
All I can do is like I can, Igrab it and even with my other
hand I can't feel in that arm.
(25:16):
I can feel with one hand, butnot I can't feel being felt,
which is this strange thing, andthat's kind of the picture I
get, even as you're describingthat like so what I, what I have
to do, the only thing I can dois to straighten my arm and then
to wait, and as I wait, the,the feeling comes back in my arm
, my mobility, my ability to usethe, the muscles in the arm
(25:36):
come back and my ability to feelagain comes like an arm.
And I think that's, that'sanother picture.
What you're describing, withthe kind of straightening the
condit you repent, is like likelet your arm be straight, that
the, the life of god, thefeeling of god, the belief of
god, the power of god can flowthrough you like you were meant
to live.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Well, and I can't help but notice the parallel of,
like we talked about this inour awakening program.
But that whole idea of leprosyis actually a nerve disease of
some sort, where you losefeeling and you end up with
infections because you've lostfeeling.
And so many of us want to becomfortably numb, right, as that
great Pink Floyd song calls it.
So many of us, you know, wantto just draw ourselves into our
(26:17):
screens and block out thefeeling.
But there's actually somethingprofound about like you
recognize what it means to notfeel.
You really want to get feelingback to your arm, but what does
that mean?
That means that this arm couldnow bump into a cabinet and feel
hurt, you know, right after youget out of bed or whatever.
And it's like something isdrawing to my heart, like man
(26:39):
God's actually calling us to bepeople who feel.
That's maybe part of whatrepentance is to feel what he
feels, not just do what he does,but like having the heart of
Jesus, having compassion, having, I mean he took on through his
incarnation.
Like you're talking about theability to physically feel
crucifixion, to physically feeltorture, to mentally and
(27:00):
physically feel the sexual abuseof being put naked on a cross,
like I don't know.
It's just pretty profound thatlike the invitation of
Christians is not repent, so youend up in eternal bliss and
like just grit your teeth untilyou get there.
It's like there's actually partof carrying our cross, might be
(27:20):
feeling what he feels, so wecan love as he loves yeah, yeah,
and we're gonna get into thatmore tomorrow too, or next week.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
The, the um.
I love that.
James is so good and he felt,uh, sexual arousal in his body.
I mean so, all the sensors thatwe feel in our genitals or in
our body that are so powerful.
Jesus knows what that feelslike, um, and that is important
for where we're going with this.
But let me, so, let me land theplane for this week and I hope,
(27:50):
if you're listening, um, Iguess I do want to say this.
I think a lot of us have heardsomething similar to this for a
long time.
Like Jesus gives us the powerto stop sinning.
We're going to unpack more whatwe mean by this, because a lot
of us who have tried to stop oursexual sins, tried to stop
lusting, tried to stop lookingat porn, tried to stop
(28:11):
masturbating, tried to stophooking up whatever it is for
you listeners, like we've heardthat message and we felt like,
oh well, something must be wrong.
Maybe I'm not a Christian,maybe that's not true, maybe
there's something different orwrong with me.
That's not wrong for otherpeople, maybe I'm doing this
whole Christianity thing wrong,and then we can tend to move
(28:32):
into the space of eitherdespairing and we give up, or we
try to work extra hard, work,work, work, and and there is,
there is both like rest and workinvolved in this process.
We'll get more into that alittle bit tomorrow or next week
, sorry, but but just hang on,come back, because we're not
just talking about like hey,some Strange out there, it's
(28:54):
supposed to happen, but but how,like, if I'm plugged in, how do
I plug in Like, um, uh, sowe'll, we'll kind of get back to
some of that, but let me, letme wrap with this.
I want to come back to this idea.
Take hope in the idea, takehope in the truth that Jesus
came to give an example, not anexample of like you know, do as
(29:16):
I do and you'll become like Ibecome.
There is something to that, forsure, for sure, but more so
that, as you see the life ofJesus, dare to believe that part
of the reason he has come toshow himself to you, to show you
what a real human person is,what you really are to you, to
(29:38):
show you what a real humanperson is, what you really are,
is because he wants you todesire to become what a human
really is.
He wants you to have anincrease in, like, wait, I can
become that.
I can become a person who looksat people like that, who is
able to do that, to live likethat, to relate like that,
really just park there for aminute.
(29:58):
So that idea of, like you know,jesus saw things that other
people didn't see.
Yeah, you're designed to seethings that Jesus sees.
You're designed to seedifferently and more than you've
seen before.
Um, this, I believe is is iswhat Jesus meant when he
announced his, his gospel, byquoting from Isaiah, and he said
(30:20):
and I'm going to truncate thepassage here but he said I have
come to restore sight to theblind, and if lust is one thing,
it is blindness.
It is not seeing someone fully,and we're going to talk more
about that next week.
All right, come back for moreJames.
(30:42):
Any, any last questions,thoughts, anything I'm leaving
on the table that we shouldn'tas we wrap up this week.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
No, I'd love to just say a prayer, though, over those
who are listening.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Yeah, please do, and us too.
We need this as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, lord, I just pray, jesus, that you would give
us your eyes to see.
Give us even that desire, likethat great prayer from St
Francis Xavier.
Grant, oh God, that we maydesire you and, desiring you,
seek you and seeking you, findyou and finding you, be
satisfied in you forever, andfinding you be satisfied in you
(31:15):
forever.
Jesus, help us to believe thatyour way is actually the way of
true happiness, true joy, truesatisfaction, and may we desire,
lord, josh and I and all thoselistening to see as you see,
help us, show us the way.
Pray this in the name of theFather and of the Son and of the
Holy Spirit.
Amen.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Amen.
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