Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friends, last
week we began a conversation
probably a three-part series,trying to get after an idea
related to sight, and last week,if you were with us, if you
haven't listened to last week'spodcast, please do.
I think it'll set you up wellfor this one, although this one
will stand alone as well.
But we talked last week aboutthe reality that Jesus one saw
(00:22):
things differently than we do,that you read the Gospels and we
see that Jesus kind ofperceives things and sees things
that the average people aroundhim didn't.
But then secondly and here'sthe real kicker he actually saw
things the way that we'resupposed to see things.
He is the second Adam.
He is the exemplar for what ahuman is meant to be.
(00:44):
And so, as we see his life inthe gospels and see him seeing
and perceiving thingsdifferently than the average
person around him does, it'sactually meant to stir desire in
us and serve invitationally tous to aspire to, to seek to see
and relate with people, as hedid.
So that's where we started lastweek see and relate with people
(01:05):
, as he did.
So that's where we started lastweek.
This week I want to start.
Well, let me, before I do that,james Craig back with us again.
James is our project director,our guru of making sure that
things move forward on our team.
I don't know what we would dowithout him.
He's also one of our spiritualcoaches here and he is the
coordinator of our Awakenprogram, which provides
year-round support for men whoare wrestling with their own
(01:28):
sexual integrity issues.
And so, james, glad to be withyou again this week.
Thanks, josh, james.
Before we dive into this week,like anything else, pop for you
last week that you want to kindof bring to the forefront before
we go further.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Just a couple of
things.
One is this is a paradigm shiftfor so many of us this idea
that need not necessarily be alifelong struggle, like lust,
whether you're a man or a woman,doesn't need to be at least in
a sense of lifelong struggle,and that we're actually made to
desire what he is and what hedesires and to see as he sees.
(02:05):
It's not just, we're not justwaiting for eternity with him in
heaven where things are allmade right.
We're actually called toparticipate in making things
right now by his power, by hisstrength, through repentance.
So those are some of the thingsthat really stuck out to me
last week.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, yeah, and I
liked what you said last week
too, but just kind of evenframing the idea of struggle,
like what do you mean by that?
And I think most of us, andwhat we're referring to when you
say this doesn't need to be alifelong struggle.
Most of us think of that wordstruggle in relation to our
sexual lives as something thatwe will probably continue to
fall into from time to time, atleast to some degree.
And what we're proposing hereis that if Jesus truly is the
(02:48):
example of what it is to be ahuman, and and his example is
invitational to us because ofthe fullness of the gospel then
we can hope for and seek to, andaspire to be like he is, which
means aspire to be one who doesnot lost, who does not view porn
ever.
(03:08):
Um, and we'll get more intothat today.
So let me, let me, let me frameup this.
I want to this episode with astory.
Um, and I've shared this indifferent settings before.
I'm not sure if I shared on thepodcast, but years ago, uh, my
mom, I was an adult, I had somekids, I was married, um, my mom
was in town visiting and, andone of the things with a family
(03:30):
at home.
It's nice to get away like andspend one-on-one time with her
when she's here.
So she, she, she, you know,went out to breakfast, went to a
local greasy spoon and we'resitting there eating and I've
been there many times beforethis particular morning we're
seated by a hostess and we'resitting in our, in our seats and
we're waiting, and we'rewaiting, and we're waiting and
the, the waitress, whoever'sassigned to our area, does not
(03:50):
seem to be showing up and it's alittle irritating.
We don't even have our coffeeyet and, uh, after however long
it was, finally our waitresscomes to the table.
No apology, not even anyintroduction about you know what
her name is, or good morning,good to see you.
She drops two menus on thetable and she says and she holds
up a craft of coffee, withtheir coffee mugs on the table,
(04:11):
she holds up a craft of coffee.
She says coffee, that's it.
And I, I said, well, can I gethalf calf?
She half, rolls her eyes andwalks off.
No word again.
I'm like what the heck, youknow?
Um, I lean across the table tomy mom and I'm like man, I think
we got miss grumpy as ourwaitress this morning Like
what's the deal.
Uh, my mom is like the eternaloptimist, so she didn't join me
(04:34):
in my like you know,criticalness of my uh, of our
waitress, but nonetheless, andthen throughout the, throughout
the morning, as, as ourbreakfast kind of continued,
it's just it was reinforced Like, this is a grumpy woman.
What is her deal?
Um, you know, she came backwith a you know half calf cup of
coffee for me.
Um, she took our order very,very curtly.
(04:56):
She, you know, no pleases, nothank yous, no eye contact.
She walks off and then we'rewaiting for our breakfast, which
also seems to be an exceptionin a long time that we're
waiting, and I finally see hercome out from back to behind the
kitchen and I'm like, oh, maybeshe's bringing her breakfast
now.
And there's a phone that ringsand it's her phone, and I know
it because she reaches into herapron, pulls out her phone on
the on the restaurant floor.
She's on the job on the floor,15 feet away from her table, and
(05:19):
she stops to take a call in themiddle of the restaurant.
Hello, I'm like this, what isthis?
Where's the manager?
You know, I'm like lookingaround, like to report this
woman, all right.
What happens next, though,changed everything, because in
the phone call I hear her hervoice is cracking a bit.
It's obvious from the tone ofvoice that she's nervous and her
(05:43):
conversation goes somethinglike this I don't remember
exactly, but something like this, and I'm just hearing the one
side of the conversation, justwhat she's saying.
She's saying something likeyeah, well, where is he now?
Well, what happened?
Look, I'm not getting theinformation I need.
Like and as the conversationunfolds, what we surmise is that
(06:03):
she's a mom and she's got a sonwho is fighting overseas
somewhere in the military andthere's been some accident or an
IUD, or IUD, iud.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
IUD, maybe one of
those bombs, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I would see my brain
is.
I work at region, so my brain'sright there, not in the
military IED I apologizelisteners an IED or something,
but he's.
He's sustained some kind ofinjury and he's being rushed
away from the middle East wherehe's serving uh to I think it
was London or somewhere to haveemergency surgery, and this mom
is scared to death.
So when I say it changedeverything, what I mean is this
(06:44):
like all morning, I'm seeingthis woman.
And I am not seeing this woman.
I am seeing a version of thiswoman that I have figured out in
my brain.
My brain has connected the dots,the synopsis is fired, I've
recognized what she's doingaround me right now and I've
made a decision about what kindof woman.
This is what she's doing, whatshe's about, and to me she's
(07:07):
Miss Grumpy.
The phone call opened my eyesto something entirely different
about her and suddenly she's nota grumpy waitress not doing her
job.
Well, she's a mom who is scaredto death and is not getting
information she needs about herson.
And not only that, but she'swaiting on a table of a mom and
(07:31):
adult son having a good old timetogether, and that's got to be
like salt in the wound of herfear that morning.
From then on, every time shecame to our table, all I'm
wanting to do is bless her, ishelp her, is comfort her, is
encourage her, is pray for her,as opposed to just judge her and
want to get her reprimanded byher boss.
(07:54):
When we say Jesus is the example, not the exception, he sees
things as they are and we aredesigned to see as he sees, and
we should aspire.
We want to aspire.
His life is an example that weare meant to see as he sees and
we should aspire.
We want to aspire.
His life is an example that weare meant to aspire to.
This is an element of whatwe're talking about.
This is an example, anillustration of what we're
talking about.
What do you hear there, james?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
man, the perception.
I mean we were saying paradigmshift earlier, but the
perception changed.
The um.
It's making me think about howJesus would say things like I
only do what I see the fatherdoing.
And it was so clear that he notonly got away to be with the
father, he went on hikes upmountains to pray.
(08:38):
He knew the scripture backwardand forward, but he actually was
like attuned to the father inany given moment and was doing
what he saw the father doing,whatever that meant, and there's
probably some mystery there.
There's probably some he had,you know, senses like many of us
get as we try to tune into god.
(08:58):
He might have visually seenthings.
I don't know exactly what itlooks like, but I've I've heard
bits and pieces of his body,people, christian people hearing
and seeing it and doing thingsbased on that, and it just
strikes me that, um, if we're soseldom attuned to the father,
(09:19):
how hard it is to be doing allthe time what the father's doing
.
But that's not a death sentence, that's not a.
This is impossible.
Like he actually honored yourheart in some way by giving you
a glimpse, 15 feet away, ofwhat's going on, and he gave you
the father's heart for her.
So it's really reallyinteresting.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
And if we translate that intothe realm of, of the spaces and
places where we are tempted tolust or treat someone as a sex
object, um it, it makes us popeven more in regards to why our
listeners listen to this podcastand can I even say too yeah, um
(10:00):
, if you could hold that thoughtfor just a second even even
those who are betrayed spousesand even those who are parents
of children who are in adifficult place sexually,
whatever that may mean.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
I imagine this is
going to be pertinent too,
because Jesus didn't just seepeople in a sexually healthy way
himself, but he also saw peoplewith compassion and forgiveness
, and he saw so much deeperright.
Then most of us can see whetherwe're struggling with sexual
sin, man or woman, whether we'rebetrayed spouse or whether
(10:36):
we're trying to parent someonedealing with sexual brokenness.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Yeah, yeah, well,
said yeah I mean mean wherever
you are listening, uh, whatever,in whatever way you are seeing
the world and seeing peoplearound you, what difference
might it make to to see throughjesus's eyes, or said, maybe
even more accurately, to seewith the eyes that jesus
(11:01):
designed, uh, for you to have tosee, with the eyes that Jesus
designed for you to have to see,with the heart that God has
placed in you and has redeemedin you and is redeeming in you?
Um, one of the one of theframes up frame ups that is
helpful for me in thinking aboutthis is that, uh, we're
designed to see people whereverwe're looking.
(11:24):
You know whether the personthat we're looking at is someone
who might be tempted to, tolust after, to objectify, or
someone that we'd be tempted toloathe.
Uh, in either either place,like what we tend to do is we
tend to dehumanize that personto some degree or another.
We take a chunk of their story,a chunk of the truth about
(11:45):
where they've come from, whathappens to them after this
moment, where they're going inlife, what they feel deep inside
, where their wounds or traumaare, what their adverse
childhood experiences are, whattheir eternal destiny is.
We, we kind of eclipse our ourview of that all in that moment
and just see either someone thatwe want to treat as an object
or as an obstacle, someone tolust after, or someone to loathe
(12:08):
, or just someone to you know,run our groceries for us and
help us get out the door, youknow, quickly as, as opposed to
a human person.
And we read through the gospelsand we see over and over and
over again these spaces andplaces where Jesus saw a person,
sensed a person.
Um, we live in such a hustleand bustle age, like we're in
(12:32):
such a hurry, it's hard for usto kind of even fathom Middle
Eastern timeframes and the timeit took as Jesus walked from
place to place.
But even Jesus had momentswhere there was external
pressure to just get throughstuff.
And I hear, I think about thewoman who was hemorrhaging for a
dozen years or more.
She doesn't want to take anyJesus time, she doesn't want to
(12:55):
draw attention to herself at all.
She's like she's not supposedto be in this crowd because if
anybody touches her, she touchesthem, she makes them unclean,
like she's unclean, so she wantsto sneak in, touch the hem of
his garment because she knowsthere's power.
There are other places in thatsame gospel where people touch
Jesus, the hem of his garment,and they were healed and she's
like that.
It says Jesus sensed this goesback to your point about just
(13:15):
kind of his attunement to theFather but he sensed that there
was power that went out from him.
And he stops and he sayssomeone touched me.
I think another way to thinkabout that, as we're kind of
conceiving of the way that Jesussaw people.
His disciples say, like whatare you talking about?
There's people pressing in allaround you.
So his disciples are seeing thecrowd and they're like you're
(13:36):
being touched everywhere, likethis, like they just kind of see
the mob.
But Jesus is still looking forthe person, the individual
person.
He's like no, no, no, likesomeone, someone touched me and
he calls her forward.
Um, and, interestingly enoughfor our purposes, why?
So he could see her, so hecould look her in the face.
(13:59):
And reciprocally, I believethat a big part of this was that
so she could see his face.
It wasn't scolding, it wasn'treprimanding, it wasn't there to
tell her what she did was wrong, wasn't to take back the
miracle, whatever else shemight've feared.
He wanted her, he wanted to seeher and he wanted her to see
him.
Seeing her, that's somethingdifferent, I think, than most.
(14:22):
It's so different yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I'm just thinking
about our digital world and how
hard it is to really see someoneon social media.
Um, granted, I've been off foryears.
Uh, it'll make you happierlisteners.
Get off social media.
Um, there's studies there now,but, um, but what social media
so often does is it's presentingboth a best version, like, I
(14:45):
think, of the sculpted instagrampost of you know, uh, this
amazing vacation, and we'retempted to just see them as this
, like, wow, they're doing sogreat, what's wrong with me?
My old therapist used to say, inpart this part of why I got off
I'm comparing my insides totheir outsides.
I'm not really seeing them.
I'm looking.
Sometimes you make thatdistinction, right, I'm looking
(15:07):
at them, but I'm not reallyseeing that.
This is a sculpted image and noone has a perfect life.
24, seven, right, so that's oneside of it.
So maybe that'd be more likeobjectify or lust in an
interesting kind of way.
Right, like, this is perfectand I'm so messed up.
On the other side, I think, um,and you can let me know if
(15:27):
you're still on Facebook, but onFacebook there's so often the
like the uncle who does thepolitical thing that we disagree
with, and then the grandma orsomeone responds and like giant
paragraphs and, and it can justgo on and on and it's like I'm
not actually seeing them I'mloathing you use that word right
or like I'm seeing them as this, like obstacle, um, they're
(15:51):
what's wrong with the country,they're what's wrong with the
world, but I'm not actuallyseeing perhaps, a broken, sinful
, immature person who's deeplyvalued and loved by God.
And these back and forthparagraphs of whatever don't
actually allow me to see them.
That way I might see theirlittle icon, their little image
(16:11):
that again, maybe is curated,but like I'm not actually seeing
the person.
This is so different than whatyou just described jesus.
Like he wants to look at her inthe face, he wants to honor her
, this woman who's been sodishonored by society.
Like he wants to honor her, hewants to show her her value and
her dignity.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
So different yeah,
yeah, I love you bring up social
media or just media in general.
Um, I'm not one to say, youknow, all social media or all
media is evil, although I I too,have pretty strict boundaries
around social media use for myown wellbeing, and one of them
has to do with the reality thatif I lose myself to watching
(16:51):
Facebook reels or YouTube reelsor YouTube videos for long
amounts of time, there is a waythat my because our brains
aren't always just kind ofautomatically able to recognize
the difference between realityand fiction, even neurologically
like you watch a scary movieand your body is afraid.
Why?
Because your body doesn't knowthe difference, or your brain
(17:12):
doesn't know the difference.
But there is a way that we arepracticing something in those
moments, and I think socialmedia and other forms of media
give us lots of opportunity topractice not seeing whole people
or seeing people as objects,and so one way to think about
objects and obstacles, I use theword lust and loathe.
Another way of framing that upis we know we're not seeing
(17:34):
people when we're seeing anobject which we define as I'm
seeking that person for how theymake me feel, they make me feel
good, so in the realm of lust.
They give me sexual pleasure.
You know, the way they dress,the way they talk, the way they
pose, the way they act, thethings they do brings me sexual
pleasure.
That's why I'm looking at thisperson brings me sexual pleasure
(17:57):
.
That's why I'm looking at thisperson.
And and in fact, looking atthis person is a misnomer,
because if you're truly seeingthe person, you can't just treat
them as a sex object, for howthey make you feel.
To see an obstacle is to is toto perceive someone as in your
way of pleasure.
They are in the way of myhappiness, and so the example
you gave online is you know thatyou have the wrong political
view, or you're espousing thefalse information, or you're,
(18:21):
you know, in my, in my way, youknow, and you have too many
groceries in the expresscheckout of the grocery store,
you're, you're an obstacle to myhappiness as and I don't see
you as a person, as a fullperson.
Yeah, and the life of Jesusmodels for us that we're
actually not intended to seepeople that way.
We're not in, we are notdesigned.
Our eyes, our hearts, our mindsare actually not designed by God
(18:43):
to behold an object or anobstacle, a sexual object to
lust after, or a a, a, a doofball that you know that we're we
dismiss as out of hand as assomeone in the in the way of the
flourishing of humanity, butrather we're intended to see
human persons, human beings,male and female.
What if we live that way andwhat difference would that make
(19:08):
in those moments of sexualtemptation when we're scrolling
and suddenly there's an OnlyFansad or there's an advertisement,
or when we're driving around inthe summertime and a guy runs
by without a shirt on and we'relike whoa, or a woman runs by
with you know tight, fittingoutfit and we're like, wow, like
we're tempted to to lust inthose moments and to see them as
(19:30):
an object because of the waythat we feel the sexual feelings
and arousal we might feel.
What changes when we begin tosay, jesus, I want to see like
you, see I, what do you seeright now?
Speaker 2 (19:43):
one of the books and
concepts has been impacting my
life in the last year.
So much is the life model fromjim wilder and specifically a
book called rare leadership, andit's an acrostic.
But basically the first R isremain relational.
And that's actually how theywould say like joy.
They define joy relationally, asense of I'm glad to be with
someone.
(20:03):
And so to remain relational isto see people as bigger than
problems.
And part of what strikes meabout this is that Jesus,
despite he's going to save alittle girl from death, he's got
pressure from people, synagogueleaders, crowds around him.
This one woman mattered to himso much more than all that other
(20:26):
stuff.
Or if you think about thehostility you know I use the
example of the uncle on Facebook, but I mean the Pharisees
coming at his life, I mean hisvery livelihood, his friends.
He knows they're all going toget martyred someday.
Like man, if something wouldmake any of us incredibly like
(20:46):
this problem matters so muchmore than people, would be the
threat to our life, like, yeah,not even just like I'd take a
bullet for you, because some ofus might think that way and
that's a great thing to think,like I would take a bullet for
my family or something, butbecause some of us might think
that way, and that's a greatthing to think, like I would
take a bullet for my family orsomething, but like would I be
willing to be tortured, would Ibe willing to go through all
that and so sorry to go so farafield, but it's like.
(21:06):
But there's something about eventhe people who were killing him
.
We can believe, based on allthe whole testimony of scripture
, he still saw them as people,more than simply a problem to be
solved.
It was a person to be loved,not just a problem.
And granted, we can tell thatthat was effective.
Because what is it?
The Roman centurion, this paganguy who's literally killing
(21:27):
Jesus, he's carrying out thejudgment, is like surely this
was the son of God.
I mean, can you imagine theamount of insults and curses
hurled at those guys becausethey're doing you know, they're
killing people on crosses?
But something about Jesus'countenance, something about his
posture and the way he carriedhimself and the love that he
exuded showed even that kind ofman that Jesus was exceptional,
(21:52):
that Jesus was the son of God.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Yeah, father, forgive
them, they know not what they
do.
Yes, wow was the son of god.
Yeah, father, forgive them,they know not what they do.
Yes, wow.
And john talks about himlooking out from the cross in
his torment, seeing his mothermary and his disciple john, and
and uh, giving them provisionfor what's ahead in in defining
their relationship.
(22:14):
Speaking about relationship, um,so let's come back to this lust
.
Okay.
So, listeners, if you'rewrestling with sexual lust and
your eyes are designed not tosee objects for your selfish
pleasure or your sexual pleasure, but to see people, what does
that mean?
So before we, I want to talk alittle about how we get there,
(22:35):
what we can do, but before Iwant to frame up just one
awesome story.
This is one of my favoritestories in the Gospels of Jesus'
invitation in this regard.
It comes from Luke 7, and Jesushas been invited over to Simon,
the Pharisee's house for dinner, and it wouldn't be uncommon in
that age for there to be otherpeople in the room kind of just
observing those who are invited.
(22:56):
So there's the invited peoplearound the table or around the,
the horseshoe table, kind oflaying around the table, and
then there are other people whomight've just kind of walked in
and that was acceptable to tohear the conversation among the
rabbis.
One of the people who comes inis a woman who is known for her
immorality and she, um, shefalls down at Jesus's feet and
(23:16):
she begins weeping in his feet,washing his feet with her tears,
wiping them with her hair, um,and anointing his feet with with
, with oil.
Is.
Is this the story where sheanoints with oil?
Do you remember I might begetting that?
I might be confusing that?
Or perfuming?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, I was just
trying to remember if there's
actually two different kind ofanointing stories or not, but
one was, uh, uh, yeah, mary, oneof the Marys, I think um, who
sat at his feet, maybe.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, okay.
So, so, minimum, this womancomes in, she's, she's one of
the non-invitees, um, and she ismaking a scene.
And there's this moment.
So Simon's invited her, invited, sorry, invited Jesus, kind of
check him out.
And the, the gospel writer,writes, or luke writes in the
story, he said yeah.
So simon thinks to himselfbasically I'm paraphrasing, this
(24:02):
is the josh internationalinternational version he thinks
to himself like ah, all right,we can wrap this up like I know
he's not a prophet, um, you know, I was wondering before because
of all the stuff I've heard andseen, whatever, but like he's
not, because if you were reallya prophet he would know what
kind of woman this is, thatshe's a sinner.
So he's kind of concluded.
And then luke writes that jesusresponded to simon's thought,
(24:29):
so like, which I think is justawesome.
There are several places in thegospels where, like, the
pharisees are thinking orgrumbling themselves and jesus
knows, again, like hisperception and what's really
going on for people, and heshares the story of two debtors,
one with less of a debt, onewith a greater debt, and their,
and the master forgives themboth.
And jesus asked simon um, which, which one would be more
(24:49):
grateful to the master?
Which one would love the mastermore and and simon rightly says
it would be the one that wasforgiven more.
And then Jesus asks him thisquestion and, by the way, we
can't miss, he is obviously.
Jesus is obviously setting up asituation here where there are
two servants One representsSimon, who Simon perceives has
(25:12):
less to be forgiven of, and onehas a greater debt, which is
this woman.
And Jesus is setting himself uphere as the master, or at least
God is.
Is the master, um, if peopledon't recognize that Jesus is
God, um?
But in any case, in that, inthat situation, jesus is setting
this up.
He's talking about what'shappening in the room, but the
reason I want to say that isbecause he's also seeing Simon.
He's also seeing Simon becausehe's he, he knows Simon, you've
(25:36):
got stuff too All right.
So he asked the question.
And then he says these beautifulwords, and I think these are
Jesus's words to us today.
He says he gives us like Simon,you're right now.
Then he turns to the woman andhe says Simon, do you see this
woman?
And I think those, there's morethat happens in that, in that
(25:57):
story, but I love that word.
He's inviting Simon to see thewoman, not what he had been
seeing, which was that she is asinner.
Um, he has been seeing a sinner, jesus, like but do you see
this woman?
And then he, then he describesher like she's been forgiven
much, she's loved me much, she'sactually treated me better than
(26:17):
you have.
You didn't do this.
You didn't you have water thatyou could have.
You have servants.
You could have washed my feeteasily.
She's washing them with hertears and her hair.
Like, see her, see her.
That's Jesus invitation to us.
It's another place, like he'snot just the example and we're
kind of like trying to keep upwith him.
He is inviting us to see whathe sees.
He's even tapping us at moments, like he's tapping Simon to say
(26:40):
see what I see.
And so in these moments wherewe are tempted to lust after
someone or loathe, for thatmatter, we're tempted to lust
for someone Might, we just slowdown and tune into the voice of
Jesus saying the same words tous, because the word of god is
living and active.
It's not just from 2000, livingand active, and so his words
(27:01):
are living for us and they'reactive for us today.
Can we hear jesus saying to usin those moments do you see this
woman and we can respond.
Or do you see this man?
Do you see this person?
What do you think, james?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I can't help but want
to bring it to this incredible
concept in 1 John, which sayswhen we see Jesus, we shall be
like him.
We shall be like him becausewe'll see him as he is.
There's something thattransforms us when we learn to
see others, maybe ourselves.
And with learning to see Jesus,it says, says all who have this
(27:46):
hope in him purify themselves.
This hope that when I finallysee Jesus, like, even hoping in
that that I'll be pure, thenlike it purifies us.
Now.
How wild is that that.
He's designed our site toactually be part of what
transforms us.
He's made us to actually betransformed by seeing and hoping
(28:09):
, as we were made to.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I love that, james.
It's so powerful and listeners,you don't know this, but we
literally just had to presspause on this conversation for
about 10 minutes because there'ssomething glitched out right as
James was was talking aboutthat Um, but such a powerful
idea of of when we see him toface to face, then then we
(28:34):
really become like him, which isagain who we are designed,
meant to be.
Um, which brings us, I think,to let's get some practical
things before we wrap thisepisode.
So you're listening and like,okay, I'm supposed to see like
Jesus sees, that's the way I'mdesigned.
So, if Jesus came to seek andsave that which is lost, part of
that is to give sight to theblind.
(28:55):
I'm dealing with my own kind ofblindness Through lust.
I'm not seeing a whole person,so what do I do?
So I want to give you threedifferent categories.
There's probably a lot morethan this three different
categories, but one of them fitsreally well with what James was
just describing.
We let Jesus see us.
(29:15):
We have to let ourselves standbefore the eyes of Jesus.
So we see in Genesis 3, afterAdam and Eve had sinned and
we're going to talk about thismore next week, but after they
sinned.
One of the first things theydid was try to hide themselves
from God.
You got to stop hiding from God, and that means multiple things
(29:35):
, but on a basic level, forthose struggling with sexual
sins, it means we come out ofhiding, we stand in front of him
naked, with the realities ofwhat we have done and we're
still struggling to do and howwe feel about it.
So I was talking to somebodyyesterday who was even saying
man, there are times where, likeI pray, I don't want to do this
, or I'm praying but I'mactually still planning on
(29:58):
sinning, like so, instead ofhaving those prayer times or
showing up at church or or justavoiding God's face in those
moments bring it to him.
Lord, I'm praying to you rightnow.
You see the reality.
I'm still planning on going andacting out later.
Help me.
I'm divided, stand naked beforehim with our sin and our
(30:20):
sinfulness.
That part of us still desiresthis stuff.
But also just stand before him,um, seeking the eyes of love
that search for you, just likehis eyes search for that woman
who was hemorrhaging for so long, just as his eyes were able to
see the woman's tears and heract of service, out of love, for
how much God had forgiven her.
(30:40):
Like, expect not, you're notentitled to this but expect,
anticipate Jesus loving eyessearching for you.
In the same ways that he sawdifferently other people, he
sees you differently than yousee yourself, and so stand
before his eyes.
You can use imaginative prayerhere to see Jesus seeing you.
(31:00):
James, what are you hearingthere, james?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
what are you hearing
there In Awaken?
Nearly every week as part ofthe homework in Awaken 360, we
have this last question spendfive or 15 or 30 minutes alone
with Jesus.
And I remember when I was goingthrough Awaken as a participant
(31:29):
, all those years ago, that wasso painful, so difficult and so
powerful.
And I remember also that one ofthe great Christian thinkers of
the last, I think, 500 years,blaise Pascal the mathematician,
he said something along thelines of all of humanity's, or
all of man's problems could besolved by his ability to sit in
his room alone.
In other words, without anydistraction, completely naked,
not doing anything.
In other words, without anydistraction, completely naked,
not doing anything, notaccomplishing anything.
And it's hard medicine.
(31:49):
It doesn't go down easily formany of us because we're so we
don't know how to deal with ourshame.
You know the toxic place ofshame, and so to be seen like
that feels like hell.
But actually through that fire,through the, it's actually
purgation, it's actually healing, it's actually transforming us
(32:11):
to being more open to being seen.
It it's a spiritual discipline.
Spiritual disciplines aremedicine.
It's like if, if I can try thisonce a week or daily, 15
minutes of nothing, how mightgod use that to begin to seep in
his love to those places ofshame.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah, yeah.
And friends, I mean, if youneed to rewind and listen to
these episodes again, thinkingabout yourself like we talked
about it.
Jesus doesn't seem to seeobjects in the way of his
happiness.
You are not in the way of hishappiness.
You are not in the way of hiskingdom.
You're not in the way of hishappiness.
You're not in the way of hiskingdom.
You're not in the way of hisglory.
(32:48):
We talked about not seeingobjects to be used for our
pleasure.
God does not want to use you.
That's not what he's about.
I remember hearing, years agopeople talked about yeah, jesus
saved you so that you could bepart of his mission to save
others.
Like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, sure, sure, sure.
But hold on, hold on.
Jesus saved you because heloves you.
(33:09):
Jesus looks at you and looksfor you because he loves you.
He sees you differently thanyou see yourself.
So this invitation is intendedto be an opportunity for you to
see him seeing you differentlythan you see and feel about
yourself, and you can use yourholy imagination in this regard.
(33:31):
You've used your imaginationfor lust.
You've used your imaginationfor evil things.
Well, now use it for good.
Imagine Jesus on the cross,looking at you with eyes of love
, and stay there.
Imagine Jesus looking at you inthe crowded room of your church
or at the mall and and justlike that, that woman, he stops
(33:52):
what he's doing and he's lookingfor you because he loves you.
Use your holy imagination andspend time in that place, and
maybe it's not 50, maybe it'syou.
Start with a minute, fiveminutes, but, but, but keep
coming back, keep practicingthat.
Five minutes, but, but, butkeep coming back, keep
practicing that.
Second thing you can do is umis prayer, and that what we're
just describing is a form ofprayer, cause you're seeking to
(34:13):
spend time with God there.
But, but simply ask Jesus thatquestion I've we've actually
asked it a couple of times inthese two series like hey, lord,
I'm, I'm seeing a sex object.
I'm tempted.
She seems like she wants whatI'm.
I'm seeing a sex object.
I'm tempted.
She seems like she wants whatI'm to me, to look at her.
He seems like he's all abouthimself and happy that I'm
(34:33):
checking him out.
What do you see, lord?
This is what I'm seeing, anddon't spend long on what you're
seeing, he knows.
I mean, you can just say itconfessionally, but cry out,
lord, show me what you see.
I want to see what you see.
I want to see what you see.
I want to see who you see.
Show me something I'm notseeing in this moment because,
um, uh, I'm obviously missingsomething here.
Um, pope john paul the secondhad this wonderful quote and I'm
(34:57):
surprised we didn't bring it upearlier.
I meant, I know, I thoughtabout yeah, he says um, the
problem with pornography is notthat it shows too much, but it
shows too little.
And I'd say the same thing'strue about lust.
The problem with pornography isnot that it shows too much, but
that it shows too little.
And I'd say the same thing istrue about lust the problem with
lust is not that you're seeingtoo much, that you're seeing too
little.
So, lord, show me what elseyou're seeing.
(35:19):
We can be like blind Bartimaeusoutside of Jericho when Jesus is
walking by and we feel likehe's not even paying attention,
doesn't even know we're there.
You just cry out Lord, lordJesus, son of David, lord Jesus.
And he says what do you want meto do for you?
And Bartimaeus says I want tosee.
So let that be your prayer,lord, I want to see.
There are times, even today, I'mat the gym or I'm out in public
somewhere, I'm some and I and Ijust I'll just stop what I'm
doing and close my eyes and belike Lord, I want to see, help
(35:41):
me to see this person, likeyou're seeing them.
So so pray and keep praying.
And then third is practice, andby practice we just mean like
you, just keep trying to seepeople.
So one way to do this, one waythat I've done this over the
years, is like what do you, whatdo you know is true about every
human being that you know thatyou know Well, james?
(36:03):
What are some things that youknow are true about every human
being that you know that youknow well, james?
What are?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
some things that you
know are true about every human
being that, you know, everyonecame out of their mother's womb
completely naked, helpless,covered in whatever you know.
Yep, everyone needs to eat,everyone needs.
Everyone goes to the bathroom,everyone.
Yep, yeah, I mean all thosetypes.
Everyone wakes up.
Well, maybe not everyone, butmost people wake up with bad
(36:26):
breath, and you know, aren't?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
comfortable in makeup
when really be seen and loved
and known and loved.
And most everyone walks aroundwith some sense of man.
(36:51):
If people see everything aboutme, I'm not going to be loved.
Including those who show whatseems like everything online.
Including the people who showthemselves wearing next to
nothing or nothing in front ofyou, like, sometimes.
Especially those people reallylong to be seen.
The people who show themselveswearing next to nothing or
nothing in front of you, likesometimes, especially those
people really long to be seen.
Um.
I'll wrap with this so you canpractice this.
(37:13):
One of one of the most powerfulexamples I've seen of this was
um.
There's a, a porn star who didan interview, a series of
interviews with diane sawyer, um, years and years ago, on on.
I can't remember what thestation was 60 minutes or
something, yeah, something likethat.
Yeah, prime time.
I think it was what it was.
Um.
Maybe I don't know so anyway,but diane sawyer and um.
(37:34):
Her real name was michelle.
She went by a different stagename, as many porn stars do, and
um, but they followed heraround.
She was like just 18 or 19 whenshe started in porn.
It wasn't long after that, andshe's describing both the sexual
assault she experienced whenshe was in middle school, her
parents' divorce.
She shares with them thereality that the first porn
(37:56):
video that she ever filmed shedidn't want to do but her agent
pressured in like hey, if youwant to be in this business,
you're going to have to do this.
And things happened to her onthat set and on other sets that
she that were not in the script,that she did not agree to, um,
they did not have her consent.
And afterwards, um, you knowthe director, just they keep
(38:16):
filming, and afterwards somebody, so those are towels, let's get
cleaned up.
Um times where she was in deepphysical pain.
But and, by the way, just again, just like, let's see reality
here for a moment.
Any other place that someone isis forced to do something
sexually that they did not givetheir consent to.
We call it rape.
So she was raped in the videoand they just kept rolling.
(38:42):
And at one point in the in theinterview, diane Sawyer makes
makes that observation.
She the in the in the interview, diane Sawyer um makes it,
makes that observation.
She says you're describingthese things that were really
hard for you, really painful foryou, and yet you're always
smiling.
And then she just stops and shewaits for Michelle to answer
and Michelle, um, at first kindof like blinks and then smiles
(39:03):
this big, beautiful smile, andsays, well, that's because I
like to hide, and almost coy,almost flirtatious, the way that
she said it.
And diane sawyer just waits,she just leaves silence like
this incredible therapist,almost except it wasn't a
therapy session.
And then she says so, she's, Ijust, I like to hide you.
Um, and then she says and thenhere she starts to tear up,
(39:26):
starts to break, she says Idon't want people to see, uh, to
see me, to see the real me.
And then Diane Sawyer asks, inessence she says why, what's?
What's real, what's hidden?
And then she says, oh, now I'mgoing to cry.
And she starts to cry and shesays, um, I want people to see
how happy I am, but in truth Idon't like me at all.
(39:49):
And then she wipes her tear andshe kind of shakes her head a
little bit and smiles again atthe camera and just shakes it
off.
I think that was like this, thiscrack in the persona, this
crack in the faulty, this crackin this protection she'd put on
herself to hide herself evenfrom the real pain.
(40:11):
She was in the real sorrow, thereal longing she has, and we
got a glimpse of the real girlbehind this porn star persona
that she had learned to livewith.
Now, after that interview, um,anti-porn advocates were like,
look, the truth, like me wouldbe like look, this is the, this
is really what this is doing topeople.
She recanted, she said no, no,I didn't mean it was a bad day,
(40:33):
I was having a rough week.
You know, I didn't really meanit.
Um, I love my job, I love mycompany, I love my agent, I love
you know, um, and she continuedin porn for years and years,
although she kept saying everyonce in a while like I want to
get out, I want to get out, Idon't, I don't believe her, I
don't believe her.
And I think part of thechallenge for us in seeing real
(40:53):
people, especially those who arein adult entertainment or those
who have kind of bought intothe sexual lives of the culture,
is that sometimes theythemselves don't see the truth
about themselves, or and or uh,are afraid, like you were
describing, to really be seenfor who they are, and so they
hide.
Jesus did not buy the bait ofpeople's pretensions, of their,
(41:17):
their posturing, their imagesoutwardly.
He saw the real people.
I talked earlier about thatscene, luke seven, when he saw
Simon.
Simon didn't want to see thetruth about his own need for
forgiveness.
The peril of the prodigal son isanother example.
Jesus is framing up the olderbrother as the Pharisees, and
(41:37):
one way to read that is thathe's condemning the Pharisees.
He's not.
He's letting the Pharisees knowthe father comes for you to
come inside.
Come inside and be part of theparty.
Part of the challenge for usand seeing real people is seeing
through the mirage that theythemselves might buy into as
well.
We got to wrap there for thisweek.
(41:57):
We're going to come back nextweek and dive deeper into what
else is.
Does Jesus see that we don'tsee?
And what else is true about usthat we haven't been saying?
And, man, there's someincredibly cool, wonderful good
news that we're going to talkabout next week.
So I want you to come continue,but, james, maybe you could
wrap us up by praying for thoselistening again.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
And yeah, father, how
many Michelle's have we not
seen?
How many times have we not seenour spouses or friends or
parents or children ourselves?
The Lord and friends, if youcan pray this along with me, I
invite you to Lord, come and seeus, open us up to be seen by
(42:41):
you, and give us eyes to seewith hope, so that you may be
purifying us, as we hope, inthat final day where we will see
you and once again be naked orsomething like that, without any
shame.
Bless you, jesus, pray all thisin your name, amen, amen thank
(43:02):
you, brother.