June 24, 2025 • 61 mins
What if your sexual struggles aren't merely obstacles to overcome but doorways to deeper healing? In this episode we welcome our guest Marco Casanova as he shares his story and journey of wholeness.
As Associate Director of Desert Stream Ministries and coordinator of their Living Waters program, Marco brings a fresh perspective to one of our culture's most polarizing topics. Having left the Catholic seminary after eight years when he realized his same-sex attraction made him uncertain about celibacy, Marco shares how discovering Living Waters transformed his understanding of his sexuality and ultimately his destiny.
For anyone struggling with unwanted sexual attractions, addictions, or desires—or for those who love someone who does—this conversation offers both challenge and hope. The church, Marco suggests, should be a place where people have "the freedom to struggle" without shame but with a vision of who they're becoming in Christ.
Resources:
- Desert Stream Ministries
- Living Waters
- Our Bodies Tell God's Story by Christopher West
- Man and Woman He Created Them: A Theology of the Body by John Paul II
- A Meditation on Givenness by John Paul II
Free Resources to help you on your journey to Becoming Whole
👉Men's Overcoming Lust & Temptation Devotional
👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, a special treat for you today,
special treat for me today atleast, and you'll be listening
in, so I'm glad you're listeningin.
Today I'm going to be talkingto Marco Casanova, and if that's
not enough to draw you in andout of you, marco, that's right.
You heard it correctly,casanova.
What is that?
Does it mean?
House of love, marco, is that?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
what that?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
is New house.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
New house, I'm sorry, I wish Casano, wish casa, you
know, house of love.
That'd be awesome.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
No, it's just just new house actually, when we say
it that way house of love itsounds a little bit uh, I don't
know smarmy, almost like houseof love I know I don't know how
I feel with the last name ofhouse of love, but I'm okay with
that.
With new house it's good yeah,new house, I love it, casanova
it.
I heard you once making it.
I think we were at a livingwaters train or something you
(00:48):
were making a joke about.
Like like marco casanova soundslike like some I don't know,
some kind of like very likemuscular, something man or like
yeah, and then you get thisshort mexican, you know marco
casanova movie star or somethingyou, you know you are.
you're a movie star to me, marco.
(01:08):
Okay, so everybody, marcoCasanova is on staff.
I don't even know your titleanymore, but with Desert Stream
Ministries if you don't knowDesert Stream Ministries, we'll
have a link in the show notesWonderful, phenomenal ministry
that has been around for 40 plusyears and has a super, super,
super important part in, uh, inmy story and the freedom that
(01:28):
Christ brought me.
And you don't know what I'mtalking about.
Call me up, I'll tell youstories about desert stream and
their living waters program thathave just transformed my life.
But, marco, tell us a littlebit like, um, what is?
So?
Let me start with the basic.
What is your title at desertstream?
What do you do there?
But um, but also like I'd love.
Well, start there, and then I'mgoing to pepper you some other
(01:48):
questions.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, that sounds great.
So I'm an associate director atDesert Stream, um, and I
oversee living waters in theUnited States.
That's my main gig, uh, here atDesert Stream.
I also assist Andrew withcertain things, um, we with
certain things.
We have a small but mightystaff here in Kansas City and,
yeah, so it's been great.
I came on as an intern in 2019,but then transitioned into this
(02:11):
full-time role shortly after,so it's great to be on this team
.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Super.
Okay, so give us the.
Andrew.
Is Andrew Comiskey, the authorof, or founder of, desert Stream
, the author of the LivingWaters program?
You mentioned Living Waters.
How do you give?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
us an elevator pitch for Living Waters and some
people might not know what thatis.
Yeah, living Waters is a groupfor men and women seeking more
wholeness, or chastity is kindof the word that we use at
Desert Stream, which is kind ofan archaic, maybe a little
misunderstood word, but we hadto reclaim and reframe that word
.
But really, living water isthis 20 week process oriented
(02:49):
group for men and women sayinghey, I want to grow in wholeness
.
So the starting points could bepornography, addiction,
same-sex attraction, maritalstruggle.
Whatever your starting point is, living waters is a way of
integrating who we are as sexualbeings and and learning how to
give uh responsibly.
(03:11):
that that actually dignifiesself and others um so living
waters is a way of of learninghow to do that better in the
context.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So yeah, a couple couple things about living
waters.
Um, years years ago I remembersharing we were running a living
waters program here and I wassharing with a local pastor
living waters and I kind of gavea similar pitch to what you
just said about.
Like you know where yourstarting point is.
It could be same subtraction,it could be pornography, it
could be extramarital affairs,it could be this, maybe some
residual stuff from past sexualabuse, and he, like almost
(03:47):
scoffingly, was like huh, thatsounds like a pretty you know
broad program or pretty intenseprogram.
And I and I hung up a littlebit embarrassed but I was, but
it is.
It is an incredibly deep, rich,broad program that that, in a,
in a way that's fairly unique inthe, in the scope of things, um
, provide space for the for thebody of Christ, broken ones in
the body of Christ to cometogether under one roof.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Um and experience the , the love, the transformation
of Jesus, and I and I know fromthe years that we ran it here.
One of the things we wouldconstantly hear from the men and
women afterwards was what ablessing it was to be together
with our different elements ofbrokenness as we aspire towards
wholeness, together in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, I love that.
Honestly.
I love that aspect of LivingWaters because there is
something integrating about theheterogeneity of it, that
there's many brokennessesexpressed, so it's not just so
sectarian of, oh I have my abusegroup or my same-sex attraction
group.
We can be like that in ourbrokenness, like, oh, my
brokenness is special and unique, when in fact I think living
(04:54):
water sort of creates a levelground for people just to come
to the cross together.
Yeah, the way that mybrokenness shows itself may
differ than my brother and mysister beside me, but yet the
roots may actually be quitesimilar.
So it's so helpful to betogether in that and it breaks
isolationism in a way.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things I'm eternally
grateful to you guys for, and Ithink that was so formative for
me.
So, marco, we've talked aboutyour role and some of the
ministry, but who are you?
How did you get into this?
I'm sure you went to collegefor this kind of ministry.
How did you get into this?
Give us a little bit of yourstory, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So I encountered Desert Stream Living Waters when
I was in the seminary.
So I was studying to be aCatholic priest and I was in the
seminary for about eight and ahalf years and I encountered
Living Waters right at the eightand a half year mark and it was
because I came with my ownstruggle with same-sex
attraction and needing to reallydiscern is God calling me to be
(06:01):
a priest At this point when Ihad encountered Living Waters,
calling me to be a priest Atthis point when I had
encountered Living Waters?
I was pretty good.
I wasn't acting outhomosexually like I was years
prior, outside of the context ofthe seminary community.
I was acting out homosexually,had a heavy addiction to
pornography.
Both of those things were kindof under control, you could say.
(06:22):
However, I was still under abit of a low ceiling of where do
I actually land?
Is same-sex attraction symptomof something deeper or is it my
destiny Like?
Is it just where I have to sortof I'm in celibacy because
there's really nothing else forme to do with this sort of
(06:44):
expression of the fall and thisvulnerability of SSA?
So this priest friend said hey,there's this guy named Andrew
Comiskey out in Kansas City.
He really believes Jesus canhelp persons on the level of
deep stuff like this.
So I thought, you know, I kindof I need it because I'm about
to give my life as a deacon andwhich, you know, every priest is
(07:05):
ordained to the diaconate andit's in the diaconate ceremony
that this man promises to be acelibate for the kingdom of God.
And I thought, man, I don'tknow if I'm ready to be a
celibate because a celibaterenounces the good of marriage
and I don't even like the ideaof marriage.
So there were some hints that Ihad some more work of
(07:27):
integration to do.
So I came to this training,this Living Waters leadership
training that we do a few timesa year, and it really shifted my
life, it really changed my life, and so I returned back to the
seminary, left the seminary,came on as a, as an intern to
Desert Stream and it was therethat the Lord was doing more
integrative work in my life, youknow, through empowered
(07:49):
discipleship, community likeLiving Waters.
The community in Kansas City ispretty robust, a great
Christian community, goodtherapy, so kind of all of the
above.
My history, obviously myfamiliar vulnerability is that
of SSA and had been strugglingwith that for a long time, but
mainly in the dark.
(08:10):
I came to Jesus a real,profound encounter with the Lord
while I was in the seminary,about five years into the
seminary, which is less thanoptimal.
You probably should be aChristian before you enter the
seminary, but in many ways Iwasn't a.
Christian, I wasn't surrenderedto Jesus in this area of my
(08:31):
deepest self, my sexuality.
Hello, that needs to besurrendered to the one.
And I simply wasn't, until Iwas given this beautiful
opportunity just to kind of openmyself up to the mercy of God,
which which put me on awonderful trajectory of of
becoming sober and coming togrips with who I am as a man.
(08:55):
But a couple of years afterthat, living waters was that
that which catapulted me intothe more which I know we'll get
to.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, so good.
Okay, man, you dropped somehand grenades along there that
are exploding in my mind.
Let me rewind just a little bitbecause I want to press in and
make sure that people didn'tmiss it and maybe hear more from
you about it.
But you said I'm getting readyto make this vow of celibacy,
which is is, um, giving up thegift of marriage and to to give
(09:31):
that up while not recognizing itas a gift.
I've felt disingenuous orsomething like that.
Like, can you, can you justkind of?
Can we go back to that page and, yeah, some more from from your
story about that yes.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So John Paul II.
I'm a big fan of John Paul II.
We are at Desert Stream, but asa seminarian back in the day, I
was becoming more familiar withthis Polish pope who loved to
write on human love honestly, towrite on human love honestly.
(10:09):
His whole curriculum vitae isstamped with these moments of
writing, pretty significantworks when it comes to what it
means to be human and what itmeans to be a human to love with
responsibility, with dignity,all of the above.
So really a pivotal player whenit comes to sexuality stuff, I
think, today.
So I'm reading TOB as aseminarian the theology of the
(10:30):
body, which is a compilation oftalks that John Paul II gave in
the eighties as the Pope.
Every Wednesday, the Pope givesa talk to the public, and so
John Paul II gave a series ofthese talks on these consecutive
Wednesdays for a matter ofyears, which then became a
compilation called the Theologyof the Body, so basically a
(10:51):
biblical anthropology.
That's what the Theology of theBody is.
It's just an exposition of theBible in which John Paul II is
gleaning from the Word of Godthe principles of what it means
to be human and what it means tobecome more human in light of
brokenness.
And so there's a section in thetheology of the body where John
(11:14):
Paul II speaks of celibacy forthe kingdom of God, and he says
that you can't become a celibatefor the kingdom of God unless
you renounce the good ofmarriage.
So you can't be a celibateunless you renounce the good of
marriage and in other words, youcan't renounce something that
you've never possessed or you'venever wanted or you've never
(11:34):
actually made peace with.
So for me, I always disqualifiedmyself on the basis that I have
SSA, I have same-sex attraction, so therefore I'm not called to
marriage.
And when I was reading JohnPaul II, it was a challenge
because it was as if he wassaying well, wait a minute.
The priesthood or any celibatecalling for the sake of the
(11:57):
kingdom of God is not a dodge ofmarriage or a hiding place from
marriage, but rather you givethat up for the sake of being
fully identified with Jesus andhis kingdom purposes.
But for me, the priesthood hadbecome a bit of a hiding place.
So that's what that was kind ofthe conflict of wait a minute.
(12:20):
I don't think I've made peacewith the fact that as a man, I'm
actually capable of fatherhoodand I'm capable of being a
married man Like those.
Those are powers inherent inwho I am as a human person I
actually haven't made peace with.
I've dodged them.
(12:41):
I haven't reckoned with them, Ihaven't faced them.
I've dodged them, I haven'treckoned with them, I haven't
faced them, so they're.
So I, I, I'm, I'm stunted in myability to actually be a
celibate.
So that's what kind ofpropelled me.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah I want to come back to that.
Yeah, what you're saying at theend.
There's so much in there andsome people listening are
probably going like, honestly, Iwould imagine there's some
people listening going like,what are you talking about?
Like, yeah, no, like if youwere, if you were a gay man,
like you, you're not stuntinganything.
What does that mean?
Like, what do you mean?
We're going to come back tothat, but, um, I mean, because I
(13:16):
think it is such a powerfulpart of your story and it and it
is, um, not spoken of enoughand I think we'll unpack that in
a minute.
Um, just as an aside, listeners,if you, if you are not familiar
with theology of the body, johnPaul, the second theology of
the body, uh, we'll have acouple accessible resources that
(13:37):
begin you kind of taking a lookat that.
It is theology of the body.
Training, at least part one ofof, uh, kind of an introductory
training to that is one of thethings that I require for every
staff member at regeneration.
Um, it really ought to berequired reading for any, any
seminarian, protestant orcatholic living today, and it,
and it strikes me like john paulii was giving those, um, those
(14:01):
wednesday audiences in the, itwas the 70s, right, the?
Uh, some I think it was the 80s, 80s.
Okay, I'm a young guy no, I noidea, not paying attention at
all to that, and I think maybemuch of the world is the same as
me.
But, um, man, like, just timely, so important for then and for
(14:26):
now, maybe maybe now more thanever.
Okay, marco, um, one of theseI've I've heard you talk about,
I've read you, you um writingabout this before.
Uh, and this, this too, I thinkwill be new to some people in
their own understanding ofsame-sex attraction, uh,
same-sex sexual temptation.
You've talked about, kind oflike the, just the value of
(14:49):
psychology, or the value of the,even the moment of temptation,
as an informative moment for youwhen it comes to paying
attention to areas ofvulnerability or things like
that can, um, and and.
So I think you know what I'mtalking about.
Maybe you could just explainlike, or maybe maybe let me
frame the question like this so,uh, young man, young woman
(15:10):
listening, uh, who hasexperienced, for as long as I
can remember, some same-sexattraction, and they're doing
their best to to abstain frompornography and abstain from
lust, um, uh, how, how and andand when they experience this.
I mean, I've talked to guyslike this.
All the time they experience amoment of, of same-sex sexual
(15:31):
temptation and they're like crap, you know, there's that, you
know there's that old thing.
Again, I suck, I'm, you knowwhatever, and and feeling some
shame about it.
Or they're feeling like, hey, Ireally want to walk, uh, out of
biblical sexual integrity.
But there's also this kind ofvoice in the back of my head
saying like, uh, when,especially when temptation hits
of, am I trying to escapesomething that's just inevitably
(15:54):
me?
Um right, how did you deal withthat?
I mean, did you experience that?
Does that resonate?
And and what, and how do yourespond to that attraction?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
it put me in a lot of conflict, like, oh, I want to
be faithful to Jesus, but yet Ihave these attractions that are
(16:32):
causing me a lot of anxietylayers of it.
So what I have found indiscovering that there's meaning
behind my same-sex attraction,psychologically speaking, is
that there's so much grace forthose moments where you do feel
same-sex attraction.
(16:53):
So what I mean by that is Ithink SSA is an indicator of
something.
There's something subterranean,so to speak, there's something
beneath the ssa, and so thesame-sex attraction is almost
like a check engine light, so tospeak.
There's something, there'ssomething that you need or
something off or something amiss, and it's not to shame you,
(17:14):
it's it's never to say, oh, dangit.
Here I am again, ren, get itout.
I don't like that.
It's more okay.
I'm noticing that I'm vulnerablefor some reason and I'm
reaching outside of myself tosecure what I actually already
have.
Why am I grasping after thisguy that may be compelling to me
(17:37):
, when in fact, I'm more likehim than not?
So why?
Why do I see him as all ofthese things?
So I think SSA is, is a, it canactually be a gift in that it
can take us to what's beneath itwhat, what, what.
What is underneath myexperience of same-sex
(17:59):
attraction?
Now, those things are sodynamic and we can't say, oh,
there's one reason why peopleexperience SSA.
That's ridiculous, and no oneis trying to say that.
I feel like people maybe brandDesert Stream Living Waters to
want to sort of fit everybodyinto, oh, it's the father wound
(18:22):
narrative or whatever.
But really I think what we'resaying is that there's some
reason, psychologically speaking, there's some sort of wound
underneath that experience ofSSA that Jesus actually wants to
get to, but also he wants tohelp me understand a little bit
more of myself.
(18:43):
So I'll give you an example,whenever I experienced same-sex
attraction, there are a coupleof things that I could ask
myself.
Why am I feeling diminished?
Why am I feeling diminished?
(19:03):
Sometimes, like in moments ofheightened vulnerability to
same-sex attraction, there is afeeling of diminishment that I
feel, you know, like why.
So, asking myself, why am Ifeeling this way?
You know, it could be ananxiety of needing to face a
challenge, I don't know.
It could be something as simpleas that facing a challenge at
work, or a challenginginterpersonal conflict, or the
(19:27):
challenge of marriage and familylife, I don't know.
There could be many things thatthreaten, seems to threaten, my
masculinity, my ability to beproactive, my ability to
engender life and to provideform.
So, whenever there's somethingthat may be challenging that I
(19:47):
tend to be more vulnerable tothe same sex attractions, stuff,
you know, and so that initialtemptation, so to speak, is an
opportunity for me to say what'sgoing on, you know.
So, in a way, it's actually,it's actually good, it's a, it's
a helpful indicator, so tospeak.
(20:09):
Now, the origins, the cycle orpsychogenesis of all of that are
those goods in and ofthemselves.
I think that needs more nuanceand unpacking, but what I'm
saying is that don't fear yourtemptations.
You know, don't run away fromyour temptations.
Actually face them and find thenarrow way through them.
Of course St Paul says, fleeimmorality.
(20:29):
That's something else you know.
Like when you're kind of in acircumstance where it's like,
whoa, I can fall.
Here I'm a, you know, I'mopening porn or I'm about to
fall with this person, it's like, yeah, duh, flee.
It's not like, oh, let medialogue here and find the, the
Colonel, you know, no flee.
(20:50):
But in those moments where it'slike Whoa, I'm, I'm feeling a
heightened vulnerability, faceit, find the narrow way through
it and and there can be so muchhealing and integration that
comes from from those moments.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, so beautiful.
I mean you, you remind me.
I think you know Andrew hasbeen writing about this for a
long time.
More recently, jay Stringer inhis book Unwanted talks about
this exact thing, with peoplewrestling with unwanted sexual
behaviors of a variety of kinds.
He does not write explicitlyabout same-sex attraction, but
one of the things that he saysin Unwanted, he encourages
(21:26):
people.
He says look a little bit ofcuriosity and kindness around
the specifics of yourtemptations and the specifics of
your story and how they mightconnect will take you much
further than an evening of, likeyou know, remorseful, shameful
prayer that this will just goaway, yeah.
And he advocates, you know, topeople in, in those in the space
(21:48):
of temptation or in the spaceof our vulnerabilities, to not
swing wide the door to ourtemptations, say come on in, but
to say, hey, you keep knockinghere, why are you here?
Yeah, what are you looking for?
Like I always kind of picturefor myself.
Hey, you keep knocking here,why are you here?
Yeah, what are you looking for?
Like I always kind of picturefor myself, like, hey, speaking
of, of, of Casanova, like, like,if I'm a house and temptation
(22:12):
keeps knocking at my door, I'mlike what I want to go to the
door and say, hey, like almostlike the pizza guy, you know,
like somebody, did somebodyorder you in the house, like do
you know what room they're in?
What's happening here, which ispart of what I hear you saying
Like I'm looking at something inme is looking for something,
and I want to just be curiousand kind of myself.
(22:32):
Um, marco, again, just thinkingabout so many people wrestling
with unwise sexual behaviors ofany kinds and certainly some
people not all people, but somepeople who really experience a
lot of shame around just therecurrence of their particular
kind of temptation, and the wayyou're talking about it is
(22:52):
really like it's not shaming,like how did you get there?
How did you get to a spacewhere it's like, hey, I feel the
temptation and it doesn't dragme to some place of feeling
woefully inadequate or differentor chronically unique or
something?
Um, but it's just, I'm a humanbeing who feels, you know, all
(23:15):
manner of or different mannersof temptation.
I mean, even you said, whenyou're describing living watch
before you said, um, it's justlevel ground at the cross and we
can all gather together, um,with our variety of of issues.
So can you just?
How did you get some freedomfrom the shame?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
yeah, I would say living waters.
For sure, 100, 110.
There is something about livingwaters that that has been a
compass for me, or a guide tosexual wholeness.
You know where I need.
I need guides, I need, I needsort of road posts and people
(23:53):
who have walked 20, 30, ahundred steps before me who can
say, hey, this is how younavigate these circumstances, or
this is how you read your wound, or learn how to read your
wound, and so I need that.
And so Living Waters reallyprovided that for me, I would
say too, coupled with facingreality, you know.
(24:18):
So I'll give you an example.
Uh, when I first moved to Kansascity, I was at, I was out of
the seminary, and the seminarywas actually, at that point, a
really good community for me,the community of men, and it was
in that community that I wasstarting to really feel like a
man among men, which I honestly,I think is my, my wound per se
is, it's a masculine wound.
There is a, there is a desirefor male friendship and at some
(24:43):
point in my story, that desire,that good desire for male
connection, became eroticized.
And so there is in the SSA,there is an actual good desire
to be connected with fellows,you know, and so I was starting
(25:03):
to live with some guys here inKansas city and that was so
healing for me because being outof the seminary I was there was
there was a bit more freedom,but also, like in this house
that I was living with there waswe were closer in quarters and
so it was a good challenge.
Of these men are my friends andI want to dignify them.
(25:38):
They're not kind of phantoms ofmy pornography fantasy or
they're these areas it can belike no, I need to live by
myself because I struggle withSSA and I can't live with other
guys, you know.
But I think living with otherguys was actually a good
challenge where I learned how tobe a man among men and how to
face what may be a compellingtemptation in a weak moment, but
(25:59):
to say I don't have to do that.
And on the basis of I want todignify him and that doesn't
dignify him and it doesn'tdignify me, and there was
something so integrating aboutthat.
So living waters, yes, the sortof this beautiful training
ground of, of becoming morewhole, but then actually facing
(26:20):
um reality and growing throughthat, I think really diminished
um the high octane, compulsiveSSA thing, but also diminished a
lot of shame where it's likeokay, if I feel that, if I bump
up against that desire to lustor to, to, to give into
(26:41):
temptation of whatever kind, uhit's to say, uh, okay, I know
this place, uh, I'm familiarwith this, that I'm bumping up
against, but I need not freakout, I can, um, I can kind of
use the tools that I've, I'vecome to learn and find a narrow
way through it yeah, that'sgreat, it's such a it's.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
there's so much grace in the way you're describing it
, um, so much invitation.
So I want to, I want to shiftgears because that, and I'm
super excited to kind of pressinto this with you because but I
think you're already pointingthe way in in culturally, in our
, in the secular culture andwithin churches throughout the
(27:25):
United States and maybe all ofthe West, I don't know there's
different characterizations of,of different approaches to for
those who experienced same-sexattraction.
There's the some folks who saylook, it's not just same-sex
attractions.
God made me gay, this is who Iam.
I'm getting married, um, andmore and more people saying, yep
(27:46):
, that sounds good.
Yeah, typically referred to asside a.
Then there are christians say no, you know a solid, traditional
reading of the scriptures andhistoric teaching the church
that this is out, that actingout sexually with somebody of
the same sex is is against god'swill.
I may not understand all thereasons I got here, but I can't
(28:07):
act on this area of temptationfor me, and so, in order to be
consistent with what god wantsfor me, I'm going to remain
celibate, um, and and some ofthose folks who would refer them
refer themselves as, as as gaycelibate Christians, some who
might not, but that's typicallybeen called side B.
I don't know who.
I don't know who came up withthese names, like it's not the
(28:28):
same people that do thegeneration names, but anyway, um
, and then, and more recently,there's been like something
called side X and side Y and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, um, and
that's not the point of thispodcast and that's not the point
of this podcast.
That's not part of my questioneither.
But one thing I find missing inall of that is an area that I
feel like Desert Stream does awonderful job of articulating
and I've heard you do it, I'veheard Andrew Comiskey do it.
(28:49):
That comes from John Paul IIand it's a different perspective
, because it's not evennecessarily like how am I going
to respond to this specific areaof temptation or desire, but
rather it's a look at who am I,who am I designed to become, and
(29:12):
really thinking about the humanperson, including our sexuality
, male and female, and what thatmeans.
So to me it's a veryaspirational perspective and I
wonder if you might just kind ofshare some of your, your
perspective on that how you, um,how you, yeah, how you, how you
, how you think about that.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, yeah, you know I don't like labels.
Um, I don't think labels havebeen good to us, especially
those of us who experiencesame-sex attraction.
Labels aren't helpful.
So letting go of gay or evenstraight or homosexual,
heterosexual as adjectivalqualifiers of who I am as a
(29:51):
person, like, oh, I'm aheterosexual Christian, I think
that's just as bad as saying I'ma homosexual Christian or or
I'm a gay christian, I'm astraight christian.
I think letting go, letting goof those, gives a little bit
more space for the, the biblicalreality of who we are as male
and female.
(30:12):
So I like the language of I'm aguy who struggles.
I just think that's so muchbetter than sort of tacking on
all of these like these, thesequalifiers that I think just
confuses are becoming, you know,I think some of the side B
Argument is that, well, mecalling myself gay or queer is
(30:37):
giving language to an experience, but it's more of like a
secondary or tertiaryidentification.
So it's not my primary identitybut it's maybe my secondary or
tertiary identity which I mean.
That's so nuanced.
I don't think people actuallylive in that type of nuance, nor
is it equated often with oh,it's like being an American.
(30:58):
You know, being an American isgood but also has some bad
qualities to it.
So it's kind of like beingqueer it has good qualities and
bad qualities.
But I think just again, I thinkit's apples and oranges to
compare that to being anAmerican or a Mexican or
something.
But I do think that letting goof any sort of label is just
(31:19):
helpful.
I have found it helpful becauseI think what it opens me up to
is who am I?
You know what?
What is, what is this body thatI have?
I mean, I have a design.
There's something inherent tomy very being that I actually
want to come and make peace with.
And so you mentioned male,female, the Imago Dei.
(31:41):
I think that's the baselinelet's just start there of I'm a
man and just de facto of being aman with a male body and all of
the male equipment, so to speak.
I'm able, I'm being drawn, I'mdirected to dignify her and she
(32:01):
as a woman, with all of herequipment and her physicality,
she's drawn and made for him.
Now, what does that mean?
I don't think that necessarilymeans that all of us are called
to marriage.
I'm not saying that.
But all of us are called to bein right relationship with the
opposite.
And I think tacking on any sortof queer or gay identity
(32:27):
inherently hinders the freedomto come out of myself for the
sake of the other.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I just think it does just think it does.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I think it it sort of puts on another layer of of
disqualification or or I'mspecial, or even a little pride
of I'm kind of unique and maybeeven a little bit better than
those of my same sex but whodon't struggle like me.
I think there's I think thoseare very dynamic and maybe
interesting motives, I think, inthose tacking on of queer, gay,
lgbtq language, but insteadjust kind of fling them off, I
(33:09):
think gives us a freedom toenter into that sort of
man-woman relating which I thinkis seminal to just becoming
human.
I mean to get back to John PaulII.
Jp2 would say in order tobecome oneself, you have to
learn how to give yourself.
And so if you never actuallycome out of yourself and
actually give yourself and he'sspeaking precisely about giving
(33:31):
yourself to the opposite sexhere it's not just sort of this
esoteric philanthropy like oh,I'm just a giver, it's like I'm
learning how to come out ofmyself and learn how to dignify
her.
It's then that I become myself.
I was just speaking to CarlTruman, who I know both
(33:52):
appreciate and admire, and hewas speaking about how Adam is
Adam by nature, but Adam didn'tbecome Adam until he saw Eve.
There's just something abouthim being awakened and actually
becoming who he is only when hesees her.
I mean, that's the basis of allof our humanity right, yes, and
(34:18):
we have, okay, let's's.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Just, if you're listening and you're like,
what's going on here?
What are we talking about?
What does he mean by dignifying?
It sounds he's talking aboutsex like yes, yes, yes, let's.
We got to just kind of stay inthose waters for a moment
because, because this is um,there's such glory here, so I'm
just going to reiterate what youjust said.
So carl truman says adam isadam, but he is.
(34:40):
He is not fully Adam andcertainly does not fully
understand who Adam is until hesees Eve.
Um, uh, I think it was.
Dr Todd White, in his book meresexuality, says this is just
playing it and, matter of fact,it's plain.
It is going back to a word youuse early.
It is, it is reality, and yetit is.
It's plain.
It is going back to a word youuse early.
(35:01):
It is, it is reality and yet itis.
It's like we can't, can't seethe reality, um, that there is,
however many organs in the humanperson male and female, plenty
of them but there's only oneorgan in man and only one organ
in woman that cannot fulfill itspurpose outside of union with
another human person.
My lungs do all they need to dowithin myself.
(35:23):
You know my stomach likewise,my heart likewise, but it is
male-female genitalia that youcan't even understand what this
organ is about without the other.
When you say you're made todignify the other, you're
talking about this.
(35:43):
This is something about whereyou're going with that.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yes, no, good question.
I think it certainly includesthat, but it's not just reduced
to genital activity.
I think there is, but there isa way in which my body is an
emblem of my capacity to dignifyher.
So, I mean John Paul II.
There's a wonderful uh articlehe wrote called a meditation on
(36:12):
givenness, which is justbrilliant.
It's not very popular, but youcan totally find it on Google.
There's a free PDF, sodefinitely do that, um.
But he says in this article thatevery man should bless every
woman in his orbit.
It's like the duty of every manto dignify every woman in his
(36:37):
orbit.
That's what he says in hisorbit.
It's kind of an interesting wayto put it.
And he says maybe it's you whois called by God to remind her
of her inestimable worth andspecial beauty.
To remind her of herinestimable worth and special
(36:58):
beauty.
Now, he's not speakingexclusively about, like a
marriage or even sexuallyspeaking, but he's saying
there's something inherent inevery man that has this
incredible power, thisincredible opportunity to bless
and secure her.
Now, of course, we have to doit responsibly, right, or you'll
be called to human resources.
(37:18):
You have to be responsible andappropriate according to the
relationship.
But I as a man, have actually acall to dignify and bless and
secure the women that I workwith.
That's just a part of who I am.
Yeah, it's sexual in that.
(37:39):
It's intimately connected withwho I am as a man.
It's not genital, that'sreserved for the marital bed.
But there's something,certainly sexually speaking,
about how I am and who I am witheverybody around me, you know.
And so I think it's more aboutthat.
Now, of course, there's amoment when it becomes so
(37:59):
exclusive and so particular inthe context of genital union in
marriage, but outside of that,it's almost like this this gift
giver, you know I'm, and I'mreminding people of their gift.
I mean, that's kind of how JohnPaul II lived and that's why
(38:22):
his writings are so challenging,cause it's like who does that?
You know, at the grocery store,it's like that's the last thing
you want to do, is like oh, Iwant to bless you.
It's like we don't think likethat.
But John Paul II is like no,this is what it means to be in
the dance of being human.
This is how we ought to live.
(38:43):
This is about making peace withwho you are so that you can
secure those outside of you ofwho they are, those outside of
you of who they are, and and so,yeah, I.
I think that the, the, the callis high.
Now, obviously, for me as a guy,I had to make peace with my
sexuality before I could even dothat, you know.
So, before coming to grips withmy own need for healing and
(39:07):
stuff, I thought I have noproblem with blessing women.
You know what I mean.
Like I I'm friends with women.
I like with blessing women.
You know what I mean.
Like I I'm friends with women,I like I like women enough.
But there was a deeper allergyagainst woman that I wasn't
necessarily paying attention toin my experience of same sex
attraction.
I just wrote her off as oh,woman in general is not really
(39:33):
worthy of my pursuit, like I'mnot attracted to her, so
therefore I'm not gonna pursueher.
In a way I think that's asubtle misogyny.
I think there's like a subtlechecking out of what I'm
actually made for there.
I'm not saying that everyonehas to be so high octane
(39:56):
sexually attracted to women, butI'm saying to sort of bypass
her or to write her off asunworthy of my gift is actually
it's not making peace withoneself.
That makes sense, marco.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, well, one of the things I think that's that's
kind of counter-cultural towhat you're saying that maybe
worth calling out a little bitis that, um, you are, you are
necessarily proposing and I knowthis isn't original to you, but
I'm just saying in thisconversation that your identity
is inherently, immutablyconnected to your body, that you
(40:38):
are your body.
So, as a man, your gift towoman you're relating to woman
necessarily has something to dowith your manhood and and you're
relating with woman hassomething your manhood and and
your relating with woman hassomething necessarily to do with
her womanhood that those can'tbe extracted out.
No one talks like that.
(40:59):
I mean that like that's.
That is so counter to, I think,what's in the airwaves right
now.
But so, if you're listening,listeners, I just want, I want
to just encourage you for amoment, just by way of example,
to consider and this maybe won'twork for everybody, but just
for a moment your mother andyour father, if, if, uh it, you
(41:20):
know wherever you are right now,and I'm assuming your parents
are alive maybe they're not, butwherever you are right now, if,
if, if, your your phone rangand it was your mom and you
picked it up and she said youknow, hey, I just, I was just
thinking about you.
I want to tell you I'm just soproud of you.
Oh, mom, thank you so much.
I appreciate that.
You hang up the phone and then,uh, how does that feel?
(41:42):
Where do you feel that in yourbody?
What, what?
What experience do you have Ifyou're a man, listening?
What experience do you have asyourself, as a man?
If you're a woman, whatexperience do you have yourself
as a woman in that context?
In that context?
And now imagine for a momentthat same situation the phone
rings and it's your father andyou pick it up and it's your dad
and he says um, hey, I was justthinking about you and I want
to let you know I'm proud of you.
How does that feel?
(42:03):
Does it feel the same, does itfeel different in your body?
How does it if you're a man?
How does it feel for you Ifyou're a woman?
And I think that's just anexample, if you can even hover
there for a moment in your ownlistening, I mean for me, for me
, I'll just speak for me likethere's a vast difference and it
goes beyond just that.
My mom and dad are differentpersonalities and live in
different places, what there issomething about the depth of my
(42:25):
dad's voice or the sound of mymother's voice that has to do
with his maleness, herfemaleness, that does impact me
differently, and and so I just Iwanted to kind of just shine a
light on that piece of whatyou're saying because it,
because that, I think, helps memake sense a little bit of what
you're, what you're suggestingabout, what John Paul II is
suggesting about, um, uh, thatthat you are, with everyone you
(42:51):
meet, designed to, to be givingyour, your manhood.
That manhood is designed to bea gift in a particular way in
marriage, but but with everyone,and uh, so, yeah, just riff off
that for a minute.
Is that?
Is that connected to whatyou're saying?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yeah, and it's so.
You're right.
I love that mother, mother,father example, because the the
they're so different, but yetthey, they.
They bless us.
Bless us in different ways, butit's so.
There is something so vastlydifferent about a woman versus a
man speaking blessing to a son,for example, john Paul II would
(43:28):
even go so far as to sayinherent in every man is a
capacity to be son, to be groomand to be father.
And inherent in every woman isa capacity to be daughter, to be
bride and to be mother.
So you think about that likewhoa, just by my nature, I have
(43:50):
these powers, obviously to beson and daughter.
That usually tends to be alittle bit easier for us to
comprehend, but for maybe thoseof us who are single and who
don't want to be single, ormaybe those of us who experience
a lot of brokenness anddisqualify ourselves based on
that brokenness, to think thatI'm actually made to be a groom
(44:14):
and to be a father, or I'm madeto be a bride and to be a mother
.
It's just a profound like whoa,and that that really helped me
to make peace with the fact thatI I can secure a woman in love
and I actually wanted to do that, even though there was fear
about that.
But there was what do you, whatdo you mean?
Actually wanted to do that eventhough there was fear about
that.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
But there was what do you mean?
You wanted to do that Like.
What was that like for you?
What was your experience ofdiscovering like, oh wait, I
actually want to.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah.
So it wasn't until I came toLiving Waters that I heard these
witnesses of men and womencoming out of former gay
lifestyles and who received anincredible healing from the Lord
, but also their own process ofbecoming more chaste, and now
they were married and these werelike the first time.
This was the first time that Iwas experiencing this type of
(45:06):
witness, and so that awakened inme the reality that, oh my gosh
, I I've, I've never thought ofmyself as a father, because I,
as a, as a biological father, um, but I, I certainly, I
certainly want to be a father,um, and that's honestly, that's
(45:28):
what propelled me out of theseminary is because if God is
calling me to be a biologicalfather and to be a husband,
naturally I have to search thatout, you know.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
And.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I just never allowed myself to actually desire that
because I always thought one, Ican't because of SSA, but two,
what woman is going to want mewith this type of brokenness
Like that's going to?
Speaker 1 (45:55):
be a strange.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
This is so interesting, but hearing the
witnesses almost broke thatdisqualification.
You know where it's like.
Oh, I, I, yeah, I walk with alimp, so to speak, when it comes
to my gift giving, but I canstill be a gift and I can learn
how to give it.
And if God wants me to bemarried, he he's going to make
(46:17):
it so.
But I don't want to go my wholelife thinking that I'm
disqualified from it just basedon this SSA, because it seems
that JP two and these desertstream fellows say otherwise.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
A couple, a couple of things.
One I'm 53.
I've been married for 20, comingup in 25 years, Um, I walk with
a limp, I walk with a limp inmy ability to give myself as a
good gift, and at 53, I'mdiscovering ways that, um, I
have not believed I could be agood father and have not known
(46:54):
myself as father.
And so part of what I am socompelled by in JP2's teaching
and the way that you guys helpme understand it, is the
aspirational vision of manhood.
This is not about, andcertainly the aspirational of
the gift of my body, the gift ofmale and female.
(47:14):
It is who I am and it is whoI'm becoming.
It is who we are and it is whowe're becoming, and I think
(47:35):
there's something about that,that a good man, if that's in my
, in my makeup, in my DNA, thenI, I can pursue that, I can go
after it, um.
So, with that in mind, I wantto, I want to just want to play,
uh, I want to push a button, um, in in what you just shared,
(47:55):
because I I know some peoplelistening will will have heard
people say, like, oh wait, holdon, if Margo's got same sex
drive, he has no right to marrya woman because he's just
setting her up for, fordevastation, like you know,
that's, that's, that'sdeceititful, it's whatever, like
, like I'm I'm not saying thatbut how like, how do you respond
(48:17):
to that, that sentiment whichis out there and which a lot of
men and women doing the same-sexattraction feel put on them?
Um, I mean, there there arewounds, certainly real, real
wounds in marriages wheresomeone with unresolved,
unprocessed same-sex attractionstuff got into a marriage and
maybe in a similar vein to howyou described, getting into the
(48:39):
priesthood, kind of like, youknow, just trying to make this
all work, and that ended upbringing a lot of heartache and
wreckage.
What would you say?
Kind of people wrestling withsome of those questions.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, I mean, those are great questions, I think.
However, I think thepresupposition in the question
is that people are justimmutably gay, like people are
just gay by nature, which I justinherently disagree with.
I think it's a faultyanthropology, it's a faulty
presupposition of saying, ohwell, people are just that way.
(49:14):
There's no possibility of thisman or this woman making peace
with their sexuality,biologically speaking, and
actually having a wherewithaland an ability to be in a
covenant of marriage and to befaithful.
So I just think thatpresupposition is false.
Be faithful.
(49:37):
So I just think that thatpresupposition is false.
However, what I appreciateabout Living Waters and my wife
and I met on the basis of LivingWaters is that both of us both
felt inherently disqualifiedfrom the possibility of marriage
for different reasons.
My wife comes out of a sexualabuse background, I come out of
same-sex attraction.
So the Lord met us on thisdisqualification thing and there
(49:58):
was something about hiscapacity to meet us in these
areas where we thought we werejust damaged goods and no one
would necessarily want usbecause of these Um and and yet
this, this mercy that God givesthis, this kingdom, come,
enabled us to actually trustJesus in the healing process and
(50:22):
it brought us together, and sothere is a common ground that we
have in our marriage to whereit's like, oh no, jesus really
helps, helps us, and so wheneverwe bump up against, we do, of
course, I bump up against mystuff, she bumps up against her
stuff and it's like Jesus, it'slike we're desperate for Jesus
(50:42):
in this marriage, and so that'sjust kind of the foundation of
it, and I would never suggest toanybody that they never share
this with their bride or theirhusband.
I think this needs to be known.
This is premarital.
This is something you need towork out Now, of course, if
you're married and you're likeI've never brought this to the
(51:04):
light, it's like okay, great,you need a contact desert stream
.
You need to allow people towalk with you, to do this
responsibly, because there is atruth in the question of.
You know, I want this to begood for both parties.
I don't want someone to do thisirresponsibly, and that's very
(51:29):
true a pornography, addiction oraffairs, or whatever your, your
, your, you know sin du jour oryour, your lust of choice might
be.
There needs to be a proper anda prudent exposition of that in
in terms of, of, of in in themarital relationship.
(51:50):
So, yeah, um, but I think thepoint of your question was more
based on is this guy justimmutably gay?
And I would say no, I don'tthink anybody is.
But again, this is where Ithink John Paul II is such a
prophetic voice in speaking intothese issues of sexuality and
(52:12):
identity and just making a levelground of where we're male and
female, male and female.
He created them.
Now we have to unpack thatresponsibly.
Um, this is why I think I Ireally want to help communities
become healing places for people, because how do you walk this
(52:33):
out?
You know what I mean?
I mean, these are deep.
This is deep stuff.
This is like persistentbrokenness.
This is dynamic, deep stuff,whether it be homosexuality or
sexual abuse or whatever it is.
And so you know, youtube, you,youtube videos are only going to
help so much.
It's like where do I go?
(52:54):
You know, yeah, and the queerthing is becoming more big and
more compelling.
You know, those of us who werequeer, identified and in queer
communities, there were reasonswhy we were in them and they
weren't entirely bad.
I mean, there was a sense ofcommunity, there was something
compelling about the lifestyle.
So then, when you meet Jesusand you pivot your life.
(53:15):
Bad I mean, there was a senseof community.
There was something compellingabout the lifestyle.
So then, when you meet Jesusand you pivot your life and you
find good freedom and you'reliving in the light and you're
forging good connections andrelationships with people, you
actually need an empoweredcommunity around you to help you
do that.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
You can't do that in isolation, you know.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
So for those of us who come out of this stuff, all
the more reason we need thechurch as an empowered healing
space for us to continue to takesteps forward.
You know, oh, I love that.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
Yeah, I've, I've thought for for so many years
that man, if, if, if those thosein the church who do not
wrestle with same-sex attraction, that's not their area of
vulnerability, it's?
It's pornography, it's, um,eating too much, it's alcohol,
it's whatever, um, it's a temper.
If that's the baggage theybring into marriage or that's
(54:06):
the baggage they bring intochurch, or that's the bags they
bring into adulthood, if, if weput a ceiling over them the way
that culturally and andunfortunately, more and more,
the church is putting a ceilingover them, the way that
culturally and unfortunately,more and more the church is
putting a ceiling over men andwomen who experienced a limp of
same-sex attraction and saidlike this is who you are, this
is a part of your identity, andI think I appreciate you calling
(54:27):
that out as, like that way,that that's an anthropology that
I do not accept.
And Christianity there's.
No, you don't find that inscripture.
This is not a part of thehistoric teaching of the church.
Like Christian anthropology, ifthere's a anything beyond
beloved of God, it's male andfemale.
(54:48):
Anything outside of child ofGod, it's male and female.
And I think there's somethingabout the ceiling, the that,
that is restrictive, that's umand that and that's.
And, with that said, even evenwith that said, I do think that
there are so many of us who westill experience elements of our
(55:09):
, of our own stories that maybearen't as explicitly spoken of,
as like this is just who you are, but we still carry around like
this is just who I am, and theyand those spaces go unexamined
and we don't, we don't recognizethat we're living under that.
Uh, and I think that's that'sanother element of why this kind
of aspirational vision of whatdoes it mean to be a man, what
(55:31):
does it mean to be a woman?
And inherent in our, in ourbodies, bodies and and I love
that word dignify.
Like that I dignify myself anddignify another when I recognize
that I, by God's design as the,as an element of the Imago Dei,
I'm designed to be a good gift,to be generous with my, with my
(55:52):
, my person, with my personhoodand um, and I think you guys, in
a very articulate, uh,sometimes graduate school level,
uh, to my, to my, in myelementary school years, like um
, hold on to and it's one, it'sone of the reasons that I, I, uh
, I do not subscribe to manynewsletters anymore.
(56:13):
I, I need a simpler kind ofemail space than that.
But, um, but, but I, I do, uh,re, remain in touch with you
guys because of of you.
Are you provide a clarion call,a prophetic voice, um, in this
day and age around this stuffthat I, I, I so value.
So, marco, let me give you thelast word.
Anything else that you didn'tsay, we didn't get into, you're
(56:35):
like, well, it would be a messif we stopped here.
I'd love to just hear any finalthoughts from you, and then
we'll wrap.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
Yeah, the final thought that I keep having in my
mind is just the freedom tostruggle I think is important
today, you know.
So being a Christian and comingto Jesus and having amazing
experiences of conversiondoesn't mean that you're not
going to experience sometemptations that you'd rather
(57:03):
not have, or does that negate orcancel out those experiences of
real conversion.
But I think the church canbecome a wonderful place for
people to allow the Lord to meetthem in their process, and so I
want the church to become thatmore.
(57:24):
I don't think that I don'tthink she's there quite yet.
You know, I don't think we dothat very well In some circles.
It's like I don't even struggleanymore with SSA and I'm like,
well, I mean, maybe for youthat's wonderful, it's not the
(57:58):
case for me, it's not the casefor a lot of people that I walk
with, and so I want there to behow I am another opposite end of
the spectrum, obviously.
But I think we as Christianscan become much better as as as
healing caregivers to people,when we just give them the space
to speak that out without anyshame, but with a vision.
So the vision of God is isredeeming something so personal
in you, and what that is is whoyou are as a man or who you are
(58:19):
as a woman, and he's, he'sredeeming that and this, this
struggle that maybe you hateright now, for, for various
reasons, he's actually using itas a, as a way in, as an avenue
into the, into the depthsbeneath the fracture, so as to
rediscover a lost fullness.
(58:39):
And so I just want the membersof the church to catch something
of that fire, because I knowfor me, early on, that would
have been so transformative.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
And so yeah, let's speak that out, I love that
that's a great note to close on,marco, thank you, thank you
just for your faithfulness inyour own personal journey that
you know.
By the blood of the lamb andthe word of their testimony,
they overcame the evil one and Ithink, just thank you.
Thank you for the testimony ofof becoming, of being on the way
(59:16):
, and and thank you for the workthat you guys do at Desert
Stream.
So grateful for you Again.
Those of you want to hear moreor learn more about Desert
Stream, those of you want totake the deep dive into Living
Waters Training we'll have alink in the show notes below.
We'll also have a link to someintroductory material about
Theology of the Body and thatarticle by JP2 that Marco
(59:37):
mentioned, a meditation ongivenness.
We'll have all those in theshow notes.
So, marco, thanks again forbeing here.
Brother, thank you so much Josh.
Hey everyone, a special treat for you today,
special treat for me today atleast, and you'll be listening
in, so I'm glad you're listeningin.
Today I'm going to be talkingto Marco Casanova, and if that's
not enough to draw you in andout of you, marco, that's right.
You heard it correctly,casanova.
What is that?
Does it mean?
House of love, marco, is that?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
what that?
Speaker 1 (00:21):
is New house.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
New house, I'm sorry, I wish Casano, wish casa, you
know, house of love.
That'd be awesome.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
No, it's just just new house actually, when we say
it that way house of love itsounds a little bit uh, I don't
know smarmy, almost like houseof love I know I don't know how
I feel with the last name ofhouse of love, but I'm okay with
that.
With new house it's good yeah,new house, I love it, casanova
it.
I heard you once making it.
I think we were at a livingwaters train or something you
(00:48):
were making a joke about.
Like like marco casanova soundslike like some I don't know,
some kind of like very likemuscular, something man or like
yeah, and then you get thisshort mexican, you know marco
casanova movie star or somethingyou, you know you are.
you're a movie star to me, marco.
(01:08):
Okay, so everybody, marcoCasanova is on staff.
I don't even know your titleanymore, but with Desert Stream
Ministries if you don't knowDesert Stream Ministries, we'll
have a link in the show notesWonderful, phenomenal ministry
that has been around for 40 plusyears and has a super, super,
super important part in, uh, inmy story and the freedom that
(01:28):
Christ brought me.
And you don't know what I'mtalking about.
Call me up, I'll tell youstories about desert stream and
their living waters program thathave just transformed my life.
But, marco, tell us a littlebit like, um, what is?
So?
Let me start with the basic.
What is your title at desertstream?
What do you do there?
But um, but also like I'd love.
Well, start there, and then I'mgoing to pepper you some other
(01:48):
questions.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, that sounds great.
So I'm an associate director atDesert Stream, um, and I
oversee living waters in theUnited States.
That's my main gig, uh, here atDesert Stream.
I also assist Andrew withcertain things, um, we with
certain things.
We have a small but mightystaff here in Kansas City and,
yeah, so it's been great.
I came on as an intern in 2019,but then transitioned into this
(02:11):
full-time role shortly after,so it's great to be on this team
.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Super.
Okay, so give us the.
Andrew.
Is Andrew Comiskey, the authorof, or founder of, desert Stream
, the author of the LivingWaters program?
You mentioned Living Waters.
How do you give?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
us an elevator pitch for Living Waters and some
people might not know what thatis.
Yeah, living Waters is a groupfor men and women seeking more
wholeness, or chastity is kindof the word that we use at
Desert Stream, which is kind ofan archaic, maybe a little
misunderstood word, but we hadto reclaim and reframe that word
.
But really, living water isthis 20 week process oriented
(02:49):
group for men and women sayinghey, I want to grow in wholeness
.
So the starting points could bepornography, addiction,
same-sex attraction, maritalstruggle.
Whatever your starting point is, living waters is a way of
integrating who we are as sexualbeings and and learning how to
give uh responsibly.
(03:11):
that that actually dignifiesself and others um so living
waters is a way of of learninghow to do that better in the
context.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
So yeah, a couple couple things about living
waters.
Um, years years ago I remembersharing we were running a living
waters program here and I wassharing with a local pastor
living waters and I kind of gavea similar pitch to what you
just said about.
Like you know where yourstarting point is.
It could be same subtraction,it could be pornography, it
could be extramarital affairs,it could be this, maybe some
residual stuff from past sexualabuse, and he, like almost
(03:47):
scoffingly, was like huh, thatsounds like a pretty you know
broad program or pretty intenseprogram.
And I and I hung up a littlebit embarrassed but I was, but
it is.
It is an incredibly deep, rich,broad program that that, in a,
in a way that's fairly unique inthe, in the scope of things, um
, provide space for the for thebody of Christ, broken ones in
the body of Christ to cometogether under one roof.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Um and experience the , the love, the transformation
of Jesus, and I and I know fromthe years that we ran it here.
One of the things we wouldconstantly hear from the men and
women afterwards was what ablessing it was to be together
with our different elements ofbrokenness as we aspire towards
wholeness, together in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, I love that.
Honestly.
I love that aspect of LivingWaters because there is
something integrating about theheterogeneity of it, that
there's many brokennessesexpressed, so it's not just so
sectarian of, oh I have my abusegroup or my same-sex attraction
group.
We can be like that in ourbrokenness, like, oh, my
brokenness is special and unique, when in fact I think living
(04:54):
water sort of creates a levelground for people just to come
to the cross together.
Yeah, the way that mybrokenness shows itself may
differ than my brother and mysister beside me, but yet the
roots may actually be quitesimilar.
So it's so helpful to betogether in that and it breaks
isolationism in a way.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things I'm eternally
grateful to you guys for, and Ithink that was so formative for
me.
So, marco, we've talked aboutyour role and some of the
ministry, but who are you?
How did you get into this?
I'm sure you went to collegefor this kind of ministry.
How did you get into this?
Give us a little bit of yourstory, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So I encountered Desert Stream Living Waters when
I was in the seminary.
So I was studying to be aCatholic priest and I was in the
seminary for about eight and ahalf years and I encountered
Living Waters right at the eightand a half year mark and it was
because I came with my ownstruggle with same-sex
attraction and needing to reallydiscern is God calling me to be
(06:01):
a priest At this point when Ihad encountered Living Waters,
calling me to be a priest Atthis point when I had
encountered Living Waters?
I was pretty good.
I wasn't acting outhomosexually like I was years
prior, outside of the context ofthe seminary community.
I was acting out homosexually,had a heavy addiction to
pornography.
Both of those things were kindof under control, you could say.
(06:22):
However, I was still under abit of a low ceiling of where do
I actually land?
Is same-sex attraction symptomof something deeper or is it my
destiny Like?
Is it just where I have to sortof I'm in celibacy because
there's really nothing else forme to do with this sort of
(06:44):
expression of the fall and thisvulnerability of SSA?
So this priest friend said hey,there's this guy named Andrew
Comiskey out in Kansas City.
He really believes Jesus canhelp persons on the level of
deep stuff like this.
So I thought, you know, I kindof I need it because I'm about
to give my life as a deacon andwhich, you know, every priest is
(07:05):
ordained to the diaconate andit's in the diaconate ceremony
that this man promises to be acelibate for the kingdom of God.
And I thought, man, I don'tknow if I'm ready to be a
celibate because a celibaterenounces the good of marriage
and I don't even like the ideaof marriage.
So there were some hints that Ihad some more work of
(07:27):
integration to do.
So I came to this training,this Living Waters leadership
training that we do a few timesa year, and it really shifted my
life, it really changed my life, and so I returned back to the
seminary, left the seminary,came on as a, as an intern to
Desert Stream and it was therethat the Lord was doing more
integrative work in my life, youknow, through empowered
(07:49):
discipleship, community likeLiving Waters.
The community in Kansas City ispretty robust, a great
Christian community, goodtherapy, so kind of all of the
above.
My history, obviously myfamiliar vulnerability is that
of SSA and had been strugglingwith that for a long time, but
mainly in the dark.
(08:10):
I came to Jesus a real,profound encounter with the Lord
while I was in the seminary,about five years into the
seminary, which is less thanoptimal.
You probably should be aChristian before you enter the
seminary, but in many ways Iwasn't a.
Christian, I wasn't surrenderedto Jesus in this area of my
(08:31):
deepest self, my sexuality.
Hello, that needs to besurrendered to the one.
And I simply wasn't, until Iwas given this beautiful
opportunity just to kind of openmyself up to the mercy of God,
which which put me on awonderful trajectory of of
becoming sober and coming togrips with who I am as a man.
(08:55):
But a couple of years afterthat, living waters was that
that which catapulted me intothe more which I know we'll get
to.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, so good.
Okay, man, you dropped somehand grenades along there that
are exploding in my mind.
Let me rewind just a little bitbecause I want to press in and
make sure that people didn'tmiss it and maybe hear more from
you about it.
But you said I'm getting readyto make this vow of celibacy,
which is is, um, giving up thegift of marriage and to to give
(09:31):
that up while not recognizing itas a gift.
I've felt disingenuous orsomething like that.
Like, can you, can you justkind of?
Can we go back to that page and, yeah, some more from from your
story about that yes.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
So John Paul II.
I'm a big fan of John Paul II.
We are at Desert Stream, but asa seminarian back in the day, I
was becoming more familiar withthis Polish pope who loved to
write on human love honestly, towrite on human love honestly.
(10:09):
His whole curriculum vitae isstamped with these moments of
writing, pretty significantworks when it comes to what it
means to be human and what itmeans to be a human to love with
responsibility, with dignity,all of the above.
So really a pivotal player whenit comes to sexuality stuff, I
think, today.
So I'm reading TOB as aseminarian the theology of the
(10:30):
body, which is a compilation oftalks that John Paul II gave in
the eighties as the Pope.
Every Wednesday, the Pope givesa talk to the public, and so
John Paul II gave a series ofthese talks on these consecutive
Wednesdays for a matter ofyears, which then became a
compilation called the Theologyof the Body, so basically a
(10:51):
biblical anthropology.
That's what the Theology of theBody is.
It's just an exposition of theBible in which John Paul II is
gleaning from the Word of Godthe principles of what it means
to be human and what it means tobecome more human in light of
brokenness.
And so there's a section in thetheology of the body where John
(11:14):
Paul II speaks of celibacy forthe kingdom of God, and he says
that you can't become a celibatefor the kingdom of God unless
you renounce the good ofmarriage.
So you can't be a celibateunless you renounce the good of
marriage and in other words, youcan't renounce something that
you've never possessed or you'venever wanted or you've never
(11:34):
actually made peace with.
So for me, I always disqualifiedmyself on the basis that I have
SSA, I have same-sex attraction, so therefore I'm not called to
marriage.
And when I was reading JohnPaul II, it was a challenge
because it was as if he wassaying well, wait a minute.
The priesthood or any celibatecalling for the sake of the
(11:57):
kingdom of God is not a dodge ofmarriage or a hiding place from
marriage, but rather you givethat up for the sake of being
fully identified with Jesus andhis kingdom purposes.
But for me, the priesthood hadbecome a bit of a hiding place.
So that's what that was kind ofthe conflict of wait a minute.
(12:20):
I don't think I've made peacewith the fact that as a man, I'm
actually capable of fatherhoodand I'm capable of being a
married man Like those.
Those are powers inherent inwho I am as a human person I
actually haven't made peace with.
I've dodged them.
(12:41):
I haven't reckoned with them, Ihaven't faced them.
I've dodged them, I haven'treckoned with them, I haven't
faced them, so they're.
So I, I, I'm, I'm stunted in myability to actually be a
celibate.
So that's what kind ofpropelled me.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah I want to come back to that.
Yeah, what you're saying at theend.
There's so much in there andsome people listening are
probably going like, honestly, Iwould imagine there's some
people listening going like,what are you talking about?
Like, yeah, no, like if youwere, if you were a gay man,
like you, you're not stuntinganything.
What does that mean?
Like, what do you mean?
We're going to come back tothat, but, um, I mean, because I
(13:16):
think it is such a powerfulpart of your story and it and it
is, um, not spoken of enoughand I think we'll unpack that in
a minute.
Um, just as an aside, listeners,if you, if you are not familiar
with theology of the body, johnPaul, the second theology of
the body, uh, we'll have acouple accessible resources that
(13:37):
begin you kind of taking a lookat that.
It is theology of the body.
Training, at least part one ofof, uh, kind of an introductory
training to that is one of thethings that I require for every
staff member at regeneration.
Um, it really ought to berequired reading for any, any
seminarian, protestant orcatholic living today, and it,
and it strikes me like john paulii was giving those, um, those
(14:01):
wednesday audiences in the, itwas the 70s, right, the?
Uh, some I think it was the 80s, 80s.
Okay, I'm a young guy no, I noidea, not paying attention at
all to that, and I think maybemuch of the world is the same as
me.
But, um, man, like, just timely, so important for then and for
(14:26):
now, maybe maybe now more thanever.
Okay, marco, um, one of theseI've I've heard you talk about,
I've read you, you um writingabout this before.
Uh, and this, this too, I thinkwill be new to some people in
their own understanding ofsame-sex attraction, uh,
same-sex sexual temptation.
You've talked about, kind oflike the, just the value of
(14:49):
psychology, or the value of the,even the moment of temptation,
as an informative moment for youwhen it comes to paying
attention to areas ofvulnerability or things like
that can, um, and and.
So I think you know what I'mtalking about.
Maybe you could just explainlike, or maybe maybe let me
frame the question like this so,uh, young man, young woman
(15:10):
listening, uh, who hasexperienced, for as long as I
can remember, some same-sexattraction, and they're doing
their best to to abstain frompornography and abstain from
lust, um, uh, how, how and andand when they experience this.
I mean, I've talked to guyslike this.
All the time they experience amoment of, of same-sex sexual
(15:31):
temptation and they're like crap, you know, there's that, you
know there's that old thing.
Again, I suck, I'm, you knowwhatever, and and feeling some
shame about it.
Or they're feeling like, hey, Ireally want to walk, uh, out of
biblical sexual integrity.
But there's also this kind ofvoice in the back of my head
saying like, uh, when,especially when temptation hits
of, am I trying to escapesomething that's just inevitably
(15:54):
me?
Um right, how did you deal withthat?
I mean, did you experience that?
Does that resonate?
And and what, and how do yourespond to that attraction?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
it put me in a lot of conflict, like, oh, I want to
be faithful to Jesus, but yet Ihave these attractions that are
(16:32):
causing me a lot of anxietylayers of it.
So what I have found indiscovering that there's meaning
behind my same-sex attraction,psychologically speaking, is
that there's so much grace forthose moments where you do feel
same-sex attraction.
(16:53):
So what I mean by that is Ithink SSA is an indicator of
something.
There's something subterranean,so to speak, there's something
beneath the ssa, and so thesame-sex attraction is almost
like a check engine light, so tospeak.
There's something, there'ssomething that you need or
something off or something amiss, and it's not to shame you,
(17:14):
it's it's never to say, oh, dangit.
Here I am again, ren, get itout.
I don't like that.
It's more okay.
I'm noticing that I'm vulnerablefor some reason and I'm
reaching outside of myself tosecure what I actually already
have.
Why am I grasping after thisguy that may be compelling to me
(17:37):
, when in fact, I'm more likehim than not?
So why?
Why do I see him as all ofthese things?
So I think SSA is, is a, it canactually be a gift in that it
can take us to what's beneath itwhat, what, what.
What is underneath myexperience of same-sex
(17:59):
attraction?
Now, those things are sodynamic and we can't say, oh,
there's one reason why peopleexperience SSA.
That's ridiculous, and no oneis trying to say that.
I feel like people maybe brandDesert Stream Living Waters to
want to sort of fit everybodyinto, oh, it's the father wound
(18:22):
narrative or whatever.
But really I think what we'resaying is that there's some
reason, psychologically speaking, there's some sort of wound
underneath that experience ofSSA that Jesus actually wants to
get to, but also he wants tohelp me understand a little bit
more of myself.
(18:43):
So I'll give you an example,whenever I experienced same-sex
attraction, there are a coupleof things that I could ask
myself.
Why am I feeling diminished?
Why am I feeling diminished?
(19:03):
Sometimes, like in moments ofheightened vulnerability to
same-sex attraction, there is afeeling of diminishment that I
feel, you know, like why.
So, asking myself, why am Ifeeling this way?
You know, it could be ananxiety of needing to face a
challenge, I don't know.
It could be something as simpleas that facing a challenge at
work, or a challenginginterpersonal conflict, or the
(19:27):
challenge of marriage and familylife, I don't know.
There could be many things thatthreaten, seems to threaten, my
masculinity, my ability to beproactive, my ability to
engender life and to provideform.
So, whenever there's somethingthat may be challenging that I
(19:47):
tend to be more vulnerable tothe same sex attractions, stuff,
you know, and so that initialtemptation, so to speak, is an
opportunity for me to say what'sgoing on, you know.
So, in a way, it's actually,it's actually good, it's a, it's
a helpful indicator, so tospeak.
(20:09):
Now, the origins, the cycle orpsychogenesis of all of that are
those goods in and ofthemselves.
I think that needs more nuanceand unpacking, but what I'm
saying is that don't fear yourtemptations.
You know, don't run away fromyour temptations.
Actually face them and find thenarrow way through them.
Of course St Paul says, fleeimmorality.
(20:29):
That's something else you know.
Like when you're kind of in acircumstance where it's like,
whoa, I can fall.
Here I'm a, you know, I'mopening porn or I'm about to
fall with this person, it's like, yeah, duh, flee.
It's not like, oh, let medialogue here and find the, the
Colonel, you know, no flee.
(20:50):
But in those moments where it'slike Whoa, I'm, I'm feeling a
heightened vulnerability, faceit, find the narrow way through
it and and there can be so muchhealing and integration that
comes from from those moments.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, so beautiful.
I mean you, you remind me.
I think you know Andrew hasbeen writing about this for a
long time.
More recently, jay Stringer inhis book Unwanted talks about
this exact thing, with peoplewrestling with unwanted sexual
behaviors of a variety of kinds.
He does not write explicitlyabout same-sex attraction, but
one of the things that he saysin Unwanted, he encourages
(21:26):
people.
He says look a little bit ofcuriosity and kindness around
the specifics of yourtemptations and the specifics of
your story and how they mightconnect will take you much
further than an evening of, likeyou know, remorseful, shameful
prayer that this will just goaway, yeah.
And he advocates, you know, topeople in, in those in the space
(21:48):
of temptation or in the spaceof our vulnerabilities, to not
swing wide the door to ourtemptations, say come on in, but
to say, hey, you keep knockinghere, why are you here?
Yeah, what are you looking for?
Like I always kind of picturefor myself.
Hey, you keep knocking here,why are you here?
Yeah, what are you looking for?
Like I always kind of picturefor myself, like, hey, speaking
of, of, of Casanova, like, like,if I'm a house and temptation
(22:12):
keeps knocking at my door, I'mlike what I want to go to the
door and say, hey, like almostlike the pizza guy, you know,
like somebody, did somebodyorder you in the house, like do
you know what room they're in?
What's happening here, which ispart of what I hear you saying
Like I'm looking at something inme is looking for something,
and I want to just be curiousand kind of myself.
(22:32):
Um, marco, again, just thinkingabout so many people wrestling
with unwise sexual behaviors ofany kinds and certainly some
people not all people, but somepeople who really experience a
lot of shame around just therecurrence of their particular
kind of temptation, and the wayyou're talking about it is
(22:52):
really like it's not shaming,like how did you get there?
How did you get to a spacewhere it's like, hey, I feel the
temptation and it doesn't dragme to some place of feeling
woefully inadequate or differentor chronically unique or
something?
Um, but it's just, I'm a humanbeing who feels, you know, all
(23:15):
manner of or different mannersof temptation.
I mean, even you said, whenyou're describing living watch
before you said, um, it's justlevel ground at the cross and we
can all gather together, um,with our variety of of issues.
So can you just?
How did you get some freedomfrom the shame?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
yeah, I would say living waters.
For sure, 100, 110.
There is something about livingwaters that that has been a
compass for me, or a guide tosexual wholeness.
You know where I need.
I need guides, I need, I needsort of road posts and people
(23:53):
who have walked 20, 30, ahundred steps before me who can
say, hey, this is how younavigate these circumstances, or
this is how you read your wound, or learn how to read your
wound, and so I need that.
And so Living Waters reallyprovided that for me, I would
say too, coupled with facingreality, you know.
(24:18):
So I'll give you an example.
Uh, when I first moved to Kansascity, I was at, I was out of
the seminary, and the seminarywas actually, at that point, a
really good community for me,the community of men, and it was
in that community that I wasstarting to really feel like a
man among men, which I honestly,I think is my, my wound per se
is, it's a masculine wound.
There is a, there is a desirefor male friendship and at some
(24:43):
point in my story, that desire,that good desire for male
connection, became eroticized.
And so there is in the SSA,there is an actual good desire
to be connected with fellows,you know, and so I was starting
(25:03):
to live with some guys here inKansas city and that was so
healing for me because being outof the seminary I was there was
there was a bit more freedom,but also, like in this house
that I was living with there waswe were closer in quarters and
so it was a good challenge.
Of these men are my friends andI want to dignify them.
(25:38):
They're not kind of phantoms ofmy pornography fantasy or
they're these areas it can belike no, I need to live by
myself because I struggle withSSA and I can't live with other
guys, you know.
But I think living with otherguys was actually a good
challenge where I learned how tobe a man among men and how to
face what may be a compellingtemptation in a weak moment, but
(25:59):
to say I don't have to do that.
And on the basis of I want todignify him and that doesn't
dignify him and it doesn'tdignify me, and there was
something so integrating aboutthat.
So living waters, yes, the sortof this beautiful training
ground of, of becoming morewhole, but then actually facing
(26:20):
um reality and growing throughthat, I think really diminished
um the high octane, compulsiveSSA thing, but also diminished a
lot of shame where it's likeokay, if I feel that, if I bump
up against that desire to lustor to, to, to give into
(26:41):
temptation of whatever kind, uhit's to say, uh, okay, I know
this place, uh, I'm familiarwith this, that I'm bumping up
against, but I need not freakout, I can, um, I can kind of
use the tools that I've, I'vecome to learn and find a narrow
way through it yeah, that'sgreat, it's such a it's.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
there's so much grace in the way you're describing it
, um, so much invitation.
So I want to, I want to shiftgears because that, and I'm
super excited to kind of pressinto this with you because but I
think you're already pointingthe way in in culturally, in our
, in the secular culture andwithin churches throughout the
(27:25):
United States and maybe all ofthe West, I don't know there's
different characterizations of,of different approaches to for
those who experienced same-sexattraction.
There's the some folks who saylook, it's not just same-sex
attractions.
God made me gay, this is who Iam.
I'm getting married, um, andmore and more people saying, yep
(27:46):
, that sounds good.
Yeah, typically referred to asside a.
Then there are christians say no, you know a solid, traditional
reading of the scriptures andhistoric teaching the church
that this is out, that actingout sexually with somebody of
the same sex is is against god'swill.
I may not understand all thereasons I got here, but I can't
(28:07):
act on this area of temptationfor me, and so, in order to be
consistent with what god wantsfor me, I'm going to remain
celibate, um, and and some ofthose folks who would refer them
refer themselves as, as as gaycelibate Christians, some who
might not, but that's typicallybeen called side B.
I don't know who.
I don't know who came up withthese names, like it's not the
(28:28):
same people that do thegeneration names, but anyway, um
, and then, and more recently,there's been like something
called side X and side Y and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, um, and
that's not the point of thispodcast and that's not the point
of this podcast.
That's not part of my questioneither.
But one thing I find missing inall of that is an area that I
feel like Desert Stream does awonderful job of articulating
and I've heard you do it, I'veheard Andrew Comiskey do it.
(28:49):
That comes from John Paul IIand it's a different perspective
, because it's not evennecessarily like how am I going
to respond to this specific areaof temptation or desire, but
rather it's a look at who am I,who am I designed to become, and
(29:12):
really thinking about the humanperson, including our sexuality
, male and female, and what thatmeans.
So to me it's a veryaspirational perspective and I
wonder if you might just kind ofshare some of your, your
perspective on that how you, um,how you, yeah, how you, how you
, how you think about that.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, yeah, you know I don't like labels.
Um, I don't think labels havebeen good to us, especially
those of us who experiencesame-sex attraction.
Labels aren't helpful.
So letting go of gay or evenstraight or homosexual,
heterosexual as adjectivalqualifiers of who I am as a
(29:51):
person, like, oh, I'm aheterosexual Christian, I think
that's just as bad as saying I'ma homosexual Christian or or
I'm a gay christian, I'm astraight christian.
I think letting go, letting goof those, gives a little bit
more space for the, the biblicalreality of who we are as male
and female.
(30:12):
So I like the language of I'm aguy who struggles.
I just think that's so muchbetter than sort of tacking on
all of these like these, thesequalifiers that I think just
confuses are becoming, you know,I think some of the side B
Argument is that, well, mecalling myself gay or queer is
(30:37):
giving language to an experience, but it's more of like a
secondary or tertiaryidentification.
So it's not my primary identitybut it's maybe my secondary or
tertiary identity which I mean.
That's so nuanced.
I don't think people actuallylive in that type of nuance, nor
is it equated often with oh,it's like being an American.
(30:58):
You know, being an American isgood but also has some bad
qualities to it.
So it's kind of like beingqueer it has good qualities and
bad qualities.
But I think just again, I thinkit's apples and oranges to
compare that to being anAmerican or a Mexican or
something.
But I do think that letting goof any sort of label is just
(31:19):
helpful.
I have found it helpful becauseI think what it opens me up to
is who am I?
You know what?
What is, what is this body thatI have?
I mean, I have a design.
There's something inherent tomy very being that I actually
want to come and make peace with.
And so you mentioned male,female, the Imago Dei.
(31:41):
I think that's the baselinelet's just start there of I'm a
man and just de facto of being aman with a male body and all of
the male equipment, so to speak.
I'm able, I'm being drawn, I'mdirected to dignify her and she
(32:01):
as a woman, with all of herequipment and her physicality,
she's drawn and made for him.
Now, what does that mean?
I don't think that necessarilymeans that all of us are called
to marriage.
I'm not saying that.
But all of us are called to bein right relationship with the
opposite.
And I think tacking on any sortof queer or gay identity
(32:27):
inherently hinders the freedomto come out of myself for the
sake of the other.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
I just think it does just think it does.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I think it it sort of puts on another layer of of
disqualification or or I'mspecial, or even a little pride
of I'm kind of unique and maybeeven a little bit better than
those of my same sex but whodon't struggle like me.
I think there's I think thoseare very dynamic and maybe
interesting motives, I think, inthose tacking on of queer, gay,
lgbtq language, but insteadjust kind of fling them off, I
(33:09):
think gives us a freedom toenter into that sort of
man-woman relating which I thinkis seminal to just becoming
human.
I mean to get back to John PaulII.
Jp2 would say in order tobecome oneself, you have to
learn how to give yourself.
And so if you never actuallycome out of yourself and
actually give yourself and he'sspeaking precisely about giving
(33:31):
yourself to the opposite sexhere it's not just sort of this
esoteric philanthropy like oh,I'm just a giver, it's like I'm
learning how to come out ofmyself and learn how to dignify
her.
It's then that I become myself.
I was just speaking to CarlTruman, who I know both
(33:52):
appreciate and admire, and hewas speaking about how Adam is
Adam by nature, but Adam didn'tbecome Adam until he saw Eve.
There's just something abouthim being awakened and actually
becoming who he is only when hesees her.
I mean, that's the basis of allof our humanity right, yes, and
(34:18):
we have, okay, let's's.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Just, if you're listening and you're like,
what's going on here?
What are we talking about?
What does he mean by dignifying?
It sounds he's talking aboutsex like yes, yes, yes, let's.
We got to just kind of stay inthose waters for a moment
because, because this is um,there's such glory here, so I'm
just going to reiterate what youjust said.
So carl truman says adam isadam, but he is.
(34:40):
He is not fully Adam andcertainly does not fully
understand who Adam is until hesees Eve.
Um, uh, I think it was.
Dr Todd White, in his book meresexuality, says this is just
playing it and, matter of fact,it's plain.
It is going back to a word youuse early.
It is, it is reality, and yetit is.
It's plain.
It is going back to a word youuse early.
(35:01):
It is, it is reality and yet itis.
It's like we can't, can't seethe reality, um, that there is,
however many organs in the humanperson male and female, plenty
of them but there's only oneorgan in man and only one organ
in woman that cannot fulfill itspurpose outside of union with
another human person.
My lungs do all they need to dowithin myself.
(35:23):
You know my stomach likewise,my heart likewise, but it is
male-female genitalia that youcan't even understand what this
organ is about without the other.
When you say you're made todignify the other, you're
talking about this.
(35:43):
This is something about whereyou're going with that.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yes, no, good question.
I think it certainly includesthat, but it's not just reduced
to genital activity.
I think there is, but there isa way in which my body is an
emblem of my capacity to dignifyher.
So, I mean John Paul II.
There's a wonderful uh articlehe wrote called a meditation on
(36:12):
givenness, which is justbrilliant.
It's not very popular, but youcan totally find it on Google.
There's a free PDF, sodefinitely do that, um.
But he says in this article thatevery man should bless every
woman in his orbit.
It's like the duty of every manto dignify every woman in his
(36:37):
orbit.
That's what he says in hisorbit.
It's kind of an interesting wayto put it.
And he says maybe it's you whois called by God to remind her
of her inestimable worth andspecial beauty.
To remind her of herinestimable worth and special
(36:58):
beauty.
Now, he's not speakingexclusively about, like a
marriage or even sexuallyspeaking, but he's saying
there's something inherent inevery man that has this
incredible power, thisincredible opportunity to bless
and secure her.
Now, of course, we have to doit responsibly, right, or you'll
be called to human resources.
(37:18):
You have to be responsible andappropriate according to the
relationship.
But I as a man, have actually acall to dignify and bless and
secure the women that I workwith.
That's just a part of who I am.
Yeah, it's sexual in that.
(37:39):
It's intimately connected withwho I am as a man.
It's not genital, that'sreserved for the marital bed.
But there's something,certainly sexually speaking,
about how I am and who I am witheverybody around me, you know.
And so I think it's more aboutthat.
Now, of course, there's amoment when it becomes so
(37:59):
exclusive and so particular inthe context of genital union in
marriage, but outside of that,it's almost like this this gift
giver, you know I'm, and I'mreminding people of their gift.
I mean, that's kind of how JohnPaul II lived and that's why
(38:22):
his writings are so challenging,cause it's like who does that?
You know, at the grocery store,it's like that's the last thing
you want to do, is like oh, Iwant to bless you.
It's like we don't think likethat.
But John Paul II is like no,this is what it means to be in
the dance of being human.
This is how we ought to live.
(38:43):
This is about making peace withwho you are so that you can
secure those outside of you ofwho they are, those outside of
you of who they are, and and so,yeah, I.
I think that the, the, the callis high.
Now, obviously, for me as a guy,I had to make peace with my
sexuality before I could even dothat, you know.
So, before coming to grips withmy own need for healing and
(39:07):
stuff, I thought I have noproblem with blessing women.
You know what I mean.
Like I I'm friends with women.
I like with blessing women.
You know what I mean.
Like I I'm friends with women,I like I like women enough.
But there was a deeper allergyagainst woman that I wasn't
necessarily paying attention toin my experience of same sex
attraction.
I just wrote her off as oh,woman in general is not really
(39:33):
worthy of my pursuit, like I'mnot attracted to her, so
therefore I'm not gonna pursueher.
In a way I think that's asubtle misogyny.
I think there's like a subtlechecking out of what I'm
actually made for there.
I'm not saying that everyonehas to be so high octane
(39:56):
sexually attracted to women, butI'm saying to sort of bypass
her or to write her off asunworthy of my gift is actually
it's not making peace withoneself.
That makes sense, marco.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, well, one of the things I think that's that's
kind of counter-cultural towhat you're saying that maybe
worth calling out a little bitis that, um, you are, you are
necessarily proposing and I knowthis isn't original to you, but
I'm just saying in thisconversation that your identity
is inherently, immutablyconnected to your body, that you
(40:38):
are your body.
So, as a man, your gift towoman you're relating to woman
necessarily has something to dowith your manhood and and you're
relating with woman hassomething your manhood and and
your relating with woman hassomething necessarily to do with
her womanhood that those can'tbe extracted out.
No one talks like that.
(40:59):
I mean that like that's.
That is so counter to, I think,what's in the airwaves right
now.
But so, if you're listening,listeners, I just want, I want
to just encourage you for amoment, just by way of example,
to consider and this maybe won'twork for everybody, but just
for a moment your mother andyour father, if, if, uh it, you
(41:20):
know wherever you are right now,and I'm assuming your parents
are alive maybe they're not, butwherever you are right now, if,
if, if, your your phone rangand it was your mom and you
picked it up and she said youknow, hey, I just, I was just
thinking about you.
I want to tell you I'm just soproud of you.
Oh, mom, thank you so much.
I appreciate that.
You hang up the phone and then,uh, how does that feel?
(41:42):
Where do you feel that in yourbody?
What, what?
What experience do you have Ifyou're a man, listening?
What experience do you have asyourself, as a man?
If you're a woman, whatexperience do you have yourself
as a woman in that context?
In that context?
And now imagine for a momentthat same situation the phone
rings and it's your father andyou pick it up and it's your dad
and he says um, hey, I was justthinking about you and I want
to let you know I'm proud of you.
How does that feel?
(42:03):
Does it feel the same, does itfeel different in your body?
How does it if you're a man?
How does it feel for you Ifyou're a woman?
And I think that's just anexample, if you can even hover
there for a moment in your ownlistening, I mean for me, for me
, I'll just speak for me likethere's a vast difference and it
goes beyond just that.
My mom and dad are differentpersonalities and live in
different places, what there issomething about the depth of my
(42:25):
dad's voice or the sound of mymother's voice that has to do
with his maleness, herfemaleness, that does impact me
differently, and and so I just Iwanted to kind of just shine a
light on that piece of whatyou're saying because it,
because that, I think, helps memake sense a little bit of what
you're, what you're suggestingabout, what John Paul II is
suggesting about, um, uh, thatthat you are, with everyone you
(42:51):
meet, designed to, to be givingyour, your manhood.
That manhood is designed to bea gift in a particular way in
marriage, but but with everyone,and uh, so, yeah, just riff off
that for a minute.
Is that?
Is that connected to whatyou're saying?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yeah, and it's so.
You're right.
I love that mother, mother,father example, because the the
they're so different, but yetthey, they.
They bless us.
Bless us in different ways, butit's so.
There is something so vastlydifferent about a woman versus a
man speaking blessing to a son,for example, john Paul II would
(43:28):
even go so far as to sayinherent in every man is a
capacity to be son, to be groomand to be father.
And inherent in every woman isa capacity to be daughter, to be
bride and to be mother.
So you think about that likewhoa, just by my nature, I have
(43:50):
these powers, obviously to beson and daughter.
That usually tends to be alittle bit easier for us to
comprehend, but for maybe thoseof us who are single and who
don't want to be single, ormaybe those of us who experience
a lot of brokenness anddisqualify ourselves based on
that brokenness, to think thatI'm actually made to be a groom
(44:14):
and to be a father, or I'm madeto be a bride and to be a mother
.
It's just a profound like whoa,and that that really helped me
to make peace with the fact thatI I can secure a woman in love
and I actually wanted to do that, even though there was fear
about that.
But there was what do you, whatdo you mean?
Actually wanted to do that eventhough there was fear about
that.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
But there was what do you mean?
You wanted to do that Like.
What was that like for you?
What was your experience ofdiscovering like, oh wait, I
actually want to.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah.
So it wasn't until I came toLiving Waters that I heard these
witnesses of men and womencoming out of former gay
lifestyles and who received anincredible healing from the Lord
, but also their own process ofbecoming more chaste, and now
they were married and these werelike the first time.
This was the first time that Iwas experiencing this type of
(45:06):
witness, and so that awakened inme the reality that, oh my gosh
, I I've, I've never thought ofmyself as a father, because I,
as a, as a biological father, um, but I, I certainly, I
certainly want to be a father,um, and that's honestly, that's
(45:28):
what propelled me out of theseminary is because if God is
calling me to be a biologicalfather and to be a husband,
naturally I have to search thatout, you know.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
And.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
I just never allowed myself to actually desire that
because I always thought one, Ican't because of SSA, but two,
what woman is going to want mewith this type of brokenness
Like that's going to?
Speaker 1 (45:55):
be a strange.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
This is so interesting, but hearing the
witnesses almost broke thatdisqualification.
You know where it's like.
Oh, I, I, yeah, I walk with alimp, so to speak, when it comes
to my gift giving, but I canstill be a gift and I can learn
how to give it.
And if God wants me to bemarried, he he's going to make
(46:17):
it so.
But I don't want to go my wholelife thinking that I'm
disqualified from it just basedon this SSA, because it seems
that JP two and these desertstream fellows say otherwise.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
A couple, a couple of things.
One I'm 53.
I've been married for 20, comingup in 25 years, Um, I walk with
a limp, I walk with a limp inmy ability to give myself as a
good gift, and at 53, I'mdiscovering ways that, um, I
have not believed I could be agood father and have not known
(46:54):
myself as father.
And so part of what I am socompelled by in JP2's teaching
and the way that you guys helpme understand it, is the
aspirational vision of manhood.
This is not about, andcertainly the aspirational of
the gift of my body, the gift ofmale and female.
(47:14):
It is who I am and it is whoI'm becoming.
It is who we are and it is whowe're becoming, and I think
(47:35):
there's something about that,that a good man, if that's in my
, in my makeup, in my DNA, thenI, I can pursue that, I can go
after it, um.
So, with that in mind, I wantto, I want to just want to play,
uh, I want to push a button, um, in in what you just shared,
(47:55):
because I I know some peoplelistening will will have heard
people say, like, oh wait, holdon, if Margo's got same sex
drive, he has no right to marrya woman because he's just
setting her up for, fordevastation, like you know,
that's, that's, that'sdeceititful, it's whatever, like
, like I'm I'm not saying thatbut how like, how do you respond
(48:17):
to that, that sentiment whichis out there and which a lot of
men and women doing the same-sexattraction feel put on them?
Um, I mean, there there arewounds, certainly real, real
wounds in marriages wheresomeone with unresolved,
unprocessed same-sex attractionstuff got into a marriage and
maybe in a similar vein to howyou described, getting into the
(48:39):
priesthood, kind of like, youknow, just trying to make this
all work, and that ended upbringing a lot of heartache and
wreckage.
What would you say?
Kind of people wrestling withsome of those questions.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Yeah, I mean, those are great questions, I think.
However, I think thepresupposition in the question
is that people are justimmutably gay, like people are
just gay by nature, which I justinherently disagree with.
I think it's a faultyanthropology, it's a faulty
presupposition of saying, ohwell, people are just that way.
(49:14):
There's no possibility of thisman or this woman making peace
with their sexuality,biologically speaking, and
actually having a wherewithaland an ability to be in a
covenant of marriage and to befaithful.
So I just think thatpresupposition is false.
Be faithful.
(49:37):
So I just think that thatpresupposition is false.
However, what I appreciateabout Living Waters and my wife
and I met on the basis of LivingWaters is that both of us both
felt inherently disqualifiedfrom the possibility of marriage
for different reasons.
My wife comes out of a sexualabuse background, I come out of
same-sex attraction.
So the Lord met us on thisdisqualification thing and there
(49:58):
was something about hiscapacity to meet us in these
areas where we thought we werejust damaged goods and no one
would necessarily want usbecause of these Um and and yet
this, this mercy that God givesthis, this kingdom, come,
enabled us to actually trustJesus in the healing process and
(50:22):
it brought us together, and sothere is a common ground that we
have in our marriage to whereit's like, oh no, jesus really
helps, helps us, and so wheneverwe bump up against, we do, of
course, I bump up against mystuff, she bumps up against her
stuff and it's like Jesus, it'slike we're desperate for Jesus
(50:42):
in this marriage, and so that'sjust kind of the foundation of
it, and I would never suggest toanybody that they never share
this with their bride or theirhusband.
I think this needs to be known.
This is premarital.
This is something you need towork out Now, of course, if
you're married and you're likeI've never brought this to the
(51:04):
light, it's like okay, great,you need a contact desert stream
.
You need to allow people towalk with you, to do this
responsibly, because there is atruth in the question of.
You know, I want this to begood for both parties.
I don't want someone to do thisirresponsibly, and that's very
(51:29):
true a pornography, addiction oraffairs, or whatever your, your
, your, you know sin du jour oryour, your lust of choice might
be.
There needs to be a proper anda prudent exposition of that in
in terms of, of, of in in themarital relationship.
(51:50):
So, yeah, um, but I think thepoint of your question was more
based on is this guy justimmutably gay?
And I would say no, I don'tthink anybody is.
But again, this is where Ithink John Paul II is such a
prophetic voice in speaking intothese issues of sexuality and
(52:12):
identity and just making a levelground of where we're male and
female, male and female.
He created them.
Now we have to unpack thatresponsibly.
Um, this is why I think I Ireally want to help communities
become healing places for people, because how do you walk this
(52:33):
out?
You know what I mean?
I mean, these are deep.
This is deep stuff.
This is like persistentbrokenness.
This is dynamic, deep stuff,whether it be homosexuality or
sexual abuse or whatever it is.
And so you know, youtube, you,youtube videos are only going to
help so much.
It's like where do I go?
(52:54):
You know, yeah, and the queerthing is becoming more big and
more compelling.
You know, those of us who werequeer, identified and in queer
communities, there were reasonswhy we were in them and they
weren't entirely bad.
I mean, there was a sense ofcommunity, there was something
compelling about the lifestyle.
So then, when you meet Jesusand you pivot your life.
(53:15):
Bad I mean, there was a senseof community.
There was something compellingabout the lifestyle.
So then, when you meet Jesusand you pivot your life and you
find good freedom and you'reliving in the light and you're
forging good connections andrelationships with people, you
actually need an empoweredcommunity around you to help you
do that.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
You can't do that in isolation, you know.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
So for those of us who come out of this stuff, all
the more reason we need thechurch as an empowered healing
space for us to continue to takesteps forward.
You know, oh, I love that.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
Yeah, I've, I've thought for for so many years
that man, if, if, if those thosein the church who do not
wrestle with same-sex attraction, that's not their area of
vulnerability, it's?
It's pornography, it's, um,eating too much, it's alcohol,
it's whatever, um, it's a temper.
If that's the baggage theybring into marriage or that's
(54:06):
the baggage they bring intochurch, or that's the bags they
bring into adulthood, if, if weput a ceiling over them the way
that culturally and andunfortunately, more and more,
the church is putting a ceilingover them, the way that
culturally and unfortunately,more and more the church is
putting a ceiling over men andwomen who experienced a limp of
same-sex attraction and saidlike this is who you are, this
is a part of your identity, andI think I appreciate you calling
(54:27):
that out as, like that way,that that's an anthropology that
I do not accept.
And Christianity there's.
No, you don't find that inscripture.
This is not a part of thehistoric teaching of the church.
Like Christian anthropology, ifthere's a anything beyond
beloved of God, it's male andfemale.
(54:48):
Anything outside of child ofGod, it's male and female.
And I think there's somethingabout the ceiling, the that,
that is restrictive, that's umand that and that's.
And, with that said, even evenwith that said, I do think that
there are so many of us who westill experience elements of our
(55:09):
, of our own stories that maybearen't as explicitly spoken of,
as like this is just who you are, but we still carry around like
this is just who I am, and theyand those spaces go unexamined
and we don't, we don't recognizethat we're living under that.
Uh, and I think that's that'sanother element of why this kind
of aspirational vision of whatdoes it mean to be a man, what
(55:31):
does it mean to be a woman?
And inherent in our, in ourbodies, bodies and and I love
that word dignify.
Like that I dignify myself anddignify another when I recognize
that I, by God's design as the,as an element of the Imago Dei,
I'm designed to be a good gift,to be generous with my, with my
(55:52):
, my person, with my personhoodand um, and I think you guys, in
a very articulate, uh,sometimes graduate school level,
uh, to my, to my, in myelementary school years, like um
, hold on to and it's one, it'sone of the reasons that I, I, uh
, I do not subscribe to manynewsletters anymore.
(56:13):
I, I need a simpler kind ofemail space than that.
But, um, but, but I, I do, uh,re, remain in touch with you
guys because of of you.
Are you provide a clarion call,a prophetic voice, um, in this
day and age around this stuffthat I, I, I so value.
So, marco, let me give you thelast word.
Anything else that you didn'tsay, we didn't get into, you're
(56:35):
like, well, it would be a messif we stopped here.
I'd love to just hear any finalthoughts from you, and then
we'll wrap.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
Yeah, the final thought that I keep having in my
mind is just the freedom tostruggle I think is important
today, you know.
So being a Christian and comingto Jesus and having amazing
experiences of conversiondoesn't mean that you're not
going to experience sometemptations that you'd rather
(57:03):
not have, or does that negate orcancel out those experiences of
real conversion.
But I think the church canbecome a wonderful place for
people to allow the Lord to meetthem in their process, and so I
want the church to become thatmore.
(57:24):
I don't think that I don'tthink she's there quite yet.
You know, I don't think we dothat very well In some circles.
It's like I don't even struggleanymore with SSA and I'm like,
well, I mean, maybe for youthat's wonderful, it's not the
(57:58):
case for me, it's not the casefor a lot of people that I walk
with, and so I want there to behow I am another opposite end of
the spectrum, obviously.
But I think we as Christianscan become much better as as as
healing caregivers to people,when we just give them the space
to speak that out without anyshame, but with a vision.
So the vision of God is isredeeming something so personal
in you, and what that is is whoyou are as a man or who you are
(58:19):
as a woman, and he's, he'sredeeming that and this, this
struggle that maybe you hateright now, for, for various
reasons, he's actually using itas a, as a way in, as an avenue
into the, into the depthsbeneath the fracture, so as to
rediscover a lost fullness.
(58:39):
And so I just want the membersof the church to catch something
of that fire, because I knowfor me, early on, that would
have been so transformative.
Speaker 1 (58:51):
And so yeah, let's speak that out, I love that
that's a great note to close on,marco, thank you, thank you
just for your faithfulness inyour own personal journey that
you know.
By the blood of the lamb andthe word of their testimony,
they overcame the evil one and Ithink, just thank you.
Thank you for the testimony ofof becoming, of being on the way
(59:16):
, and and thank you for the workthat you guys do at Desert
Stream.
So grateful for you Again.
Those of you want to hear moreor learn more about Desert
Stream, those of you want totake the deep dive into Living
Waters Training we'll have alink in the show notes below.
We'll also have a link to someintroductory material about
Theology of the Body and thatarticle by JP2 that Marco
(59:37):
mentioned, a meditation ongivenness.
We'll have all those in theshow notes.
So, marco, thanks again forbeing here.
Brother, thank you so much Josh.
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