Podcast 134: A Review of Dr. Rob Reimer’s Soul Care Teaching (Part Two)

My cohost, Dan Stegeman and I continue our review of Soul Care Ministry by Dr. Rob Reimer. This podcast comes out of the desire to be discerning. We are instructed in scripture to test everything being taught and compare it to scripture. The apostle John writes, “Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits […]

The post Podcast 134: A Review of Dr. Rob Reimer’s Soul Care Teaching (Part Two) appeared first on Before You Quit.

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Hey, everybody wanna welcome you again to the
before you quit podcasts where we wanna bring
encourage and perspective... Serving gets hard. And man
doesn't it get hard sometimes, that is why
we do what we do on these podcast
episodes.
My name is Mitch Schultz. I'm your host.
I'm also the director of a ministry called
Fruitful wine Ministry.
Okay. Today, Dan S, my c host and

(00:22):
I are gonna continue our
conversational in critique of Doctor Rob Rem Sol
care Ministry.
This will be episode number 2. We'll probably
be putting out 2 more episodes in but
let me go ahead and jump into that
now.
Alright. We are on episode number 2 and
our review of...
Doctor Rob Soul care

(00:44):
teaching and ministry. Dan S. Good morning. My
c host. How are you this morning.
Good morning, Mitch. I'm doing well. Thanks.
Well, we are gonna dive into the content
of the book soul care by Doctor. Re,
and we we're we're really fascinated with the
response at this point, Dan.

(01:05):
We had posted this on the Christian missionary
airlines Facebook page and
certainly got a lot of traction, a lot
of listeners,
I shared with you with the 3. We
put up 3 different posts, this podcast, a
paper I wrote,
a paper that Mark Barn wrote on on
demon possession, we're gonna clarify that a little

(01:25):
bit because I feel like that's, an area
of some confusion
but the the Facebook posts were removed,
by the administrator,
later someone,
posted a challenge asking why. We've not heard
yet,
you know, any any reasoning for that, but,
the administrator

(01:46):
wrote me or I wrote him personally, and
just said there was too much reaction to
this,
which I I thanked him for the brief
opportunity we had to
put out our content.
But really interesting,
how do you how do you respond to
that? What's your take on that? Because I
think it says a lot about difficulty. And,

(02:07):
you know, just counter,
bringing up a different, you know, approach or
position the certain teachings within our denomination or
within the church as a whole.
Yeah. I I would say that I wasn't
surprised
but I was definitely disappointed.
And
it it comes...
What it comes back to

(02:28):
is...
There's not really room for a dissent voice
within the C.
And I've encountered that before. I know you
have others have...
And and it's really troubling because
if if this teaching, if soul care is
biblical,

(02:49):
then it's going to stand up to any
sort of critique.
We offer somebody else offers
So you you want people to dig deeper
into the scriptures. And and when you just
kinda d platform,
some articles and the podcast,
then you're saying, you know, we don't even
want it. We don't want any dissent voice.
And, I guess my question is, you know,

(03:11):
what are they afraid of? What are they
worried about if
if this is... If this teaching is biblical,
there should be nothing, to be worried about.
Nothing to be afraid of.
So it's... Yeah. I I guess I'd summarize
that by saying,
I was disappointed, but not surprised.
Yeah. And in the first podcast, we laid

(03:32):
out a biblical reason for this, the discernment
is a biblical call that we are meant.
To,
evaluate what's being said in the in the
name of God and compare to what is
said in the word of God, and we
have some issues there that
this teaching,
the does not seem to be consistent with
the word of God.

(03:53):
And and I made the statements, and this
is the correct way to put it that
we're... We are to listen to every thing
with a closed mind and an open bible.
And once we like the b. Once they
agree, like, we're gonna be suspicious of this,
but let's see what the bible says. And
the bible affirm it, then, yes, we are
in agreement with it. So,
we don't need need to repeat the you

(04:14):
know, those reasons for... For why we're doing
this.
I had a family member really
criticized me for
rather strongly for for you know, she she
didn't have an issue with me doing this,
but mentioning someone's name.
And once I helped her understand that this
is a public ministry

(04:34):
and also the leadership, whatever leadership exists over,
anyone who's a teacher is not doing their
job and,
you know, cri and calling people to
to to truth
and to either caution or discipline when
there is lack of truth or even a

(04:55):
false teaching,
that leaves us to us as,
either, members of the constituency or listeners to
to respond. So I guess what I'm saying
there is 1 of the leadership not doing
their job, then someone will... Step in and
say, hey, wait a minute. Why are we
allowing this to be taught?
And why are you not doing your job

(05:15):
as the authority
and I guess, the reason for that is
because they they agree with it. I think
that would be our our consensus.
You wanted to make some clarity about the
whole demon possession versus occupation too before we
jump into the content here.
Yeah. I I think there was a couple,
people who responded and and said, hey, doctor.

(05:38):
Re doesn't teach demon possession.
He teaches,
demon digitization.
And let me just... Or or
occupation or in
the 2 words that people were saying that
is actually being taught.
Yeah. And so from,
chapter 7 or Soul care principal number 7,

(05:59):
Here's what he writes. I do not use
the word demon possession that implies ownership and
Christians
cannot be owned. We have been created by
God.
And bought for a price by the blood
of Christ.
We belong to God the ownership issue is
settled. So to that, we we say amen,
you know,
we're in full agreement with that.

(06:20):
But here's
the very next line. So I don't think
possession is an accurate translation. I prefer to
you as the word demon
immunization, which describes demonic influence. I do believe
listen this.
I do believe that Christians can be afflicted
with various degrees of demon digitization,
and I think in some cases the only
way to get them free is through deliverance

(06:42):
or a power encounter.
Therefore in short, I do believe Christians
can have ind dwelling demons
and need deliverance.
So that's where it gets
confusing. This is where it's... It it becomes
about semantics.
Because when you're talking about...
Somebody who has ind dwelling demons,

(07:03):
that kinda sounds like demon possession.
And so I I feel like there's a
a real lack of clarity. And and when
you look at his approach, when you when
you look at Doctor Rob Re,
and how he approaches
someone who seemingly would have
a demon.
It's... It's just like in the Bible, he's

(07:25):
approaching it that same way,
as if they are possessed. Whatever the case,
He does believe that that you can have
ind dwelling demons. So
demon possession,
ind dwelling, it it kind of amounts to
the same thing. Far as I'm concerned.
Yeah. And that's where again, I think I
mentioned this in the first podcast that we

(07:46):
reached out to him to let him know
we were doing this and as heard an
opportunity to do a a follow up podcast,
but he
he did not wanna do that.
We'll be saying a lot more about this
for sole idea of demon immunization, demon possession
and dwelling
occupation, probably in a separate podcast. Or there's
a potential here that will be
doing 3 or 4 podcasts.

(08:09):
But
yeah. So so, Dan, you and I agreed
when we... Before we hit re... Not to
review what Sol care is.
However, maybe we need to say something here
because the 7 principles that we're gonna be
looking at or unpacking, and I think we'll
just talk about 3 or 4 of them
today.
They're they're meant to

(08:30):
at kind of teach us how to be
set free, out to be released, he refers
to the sold like a suitcase that gets
Mh.
Gunk, you know, the experiences of life, trauma,
sands, wounds,
those things kind of pile up in our
soul and they create
you, a unhealthy behavior,

(08:51):
unhealthy view of of ourselves, which is the,
you know, the identity piece.
So can you give maybe just a real
brief
description of what these
7 principles are meant to accomplish.
Sure. Yeah. So
the first 4 that we're going to cover
today,
are securing your identity.

(09:13):
So he starts with the whole identity issue.
I think that's a good place to to
begin, that's a natural place.
Then he moves on to repentance
and talks about rep repentance, the third
chapter.
The third principle is family sin patterns.
So he looks at at some of the
influence that that your family of origin

(09:35):
may have had on you.
And then chapter 4 is
forgiveness.
So those are what we're going to cover
today.
Principle number 5 is healing wounds,
talking about some of the the the wounded
that we experience
as Christians,

(09:55):
how healing takes place,
chapter
6 is overcoming fears. And then finally,
this is the most important chapter.
And that is
deliverance. And that's where he gets into the
the whole.
So so each of these areas are impediments,
to being healthy. These these are the ways
to be on stock to be set free.

(10:18):
And so we're we're gonna go through each
1. We're gonna start with securing your
identity here. Mh. And there's a lot that
we agree with here. Again, we mentioned last
time, there's just a lot of really good
stuff here. Start, but I think we need
to understand what it means to to have
our identity in christ.
I think the, you know, you and I,

(10:41):
talk a little bit before this that are,
you know, what what price has done for
us and and
justification, righteousness and san justification,
has kinda sealed that identity. You know, we
know who we are in Christ,
so what does what does Re say about
the identity piece that is is critical to

(11:03):
being set free. And then let's talk about
what our true identity is, and
and,
again, just again, biblical how that's so important
and
you know, especially in understanding what the role
of scripture is and and describing who we
are, and us just believing that by faith,
You know?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, as you said, Mitch,

(11:25):
how we view ourselves our identity
is hugely important.
So as I said, I I think it's
really important. This is this is a a
foundational aspect.
And the Bible tells us, that it's not
what we do. It's not our job. It's
not our success. It's not how much money
we have. It's not how loved we are

(11:46):
by our... Family or friends, people in the
world,
that's not what it's about.
Our identity as as Christians,
is secure in Christ.
And and so
I think Green
does a pretty good job of of capturing
that.
Here's what's lacking
here here's what what you don't see so

(12:08):
much in this chapter, this principle
is
our core identity
as human beings
is ruined by sin.
So that that's the the the big thing
that that's lacking. We we could turn to
all kinds of passages in the Bible,
Romans 3, for example says that no 1...

(12:31):
Is righteous,
no 1 at all.
And and so
that issue of our sin nature,
it seems to be lacking.
It... In fact, it it... I'm gonna go
so far as to say it is lacking.
Because
why do we need Jesus? You know, why
why would we say

(12:53):
our identity
is rooted and grounded in Christ. When a
lot of people even those in the church,
don't really
see themselves as that bad. They don't see
that their whole nature is being ruined and
corrupted by sin.
So I I think that's 1 of the
the major deficiencies. Yeah. That that's a really
good point... That's really a good point. That

(13:14):
we don't even
in a lot of preaching,
you know, that it... It's to build you
up that... I mean, people will even say
that you you wanna know how much God
loves you
You wanna know how valuable he is. He
died for you. You would not die for
someone who is so valuable.
But in truth, Christ Died, because we're sinner,

(13:35):
and and the wrath of God was meant
to be upon us. It was placed on
his son
I I think it's it's missing the point
when we say that,
you know, we are so valuable to God,
man, he was really willing to risk his
place and having... Come here to Earth to
to rescue us. Let me read a couple
things he says, and then let's unpack that.

(13:55):
He says, well, you believe about yourself is
the foundations to your life.
I always spoke A To who says that
what you believe about God,
is the most important thing about you. Yes.
So I don't know if it's a good
place to start by saying what you believe
you're about yourself
is foundation. Your life will come to that.

(14:16):
It's your identity he says, and a faulty
foundation will create f in the soul
If you're gonna construct a healthy life and
begin with what you believe about yourself. Dan,
when I... Again, this is a call to
look inward, we talked about this the last...
Podcast it. You know, the whole they'll
you know, approach that is eventually used to

(14:38):
help you heal is to, you know, kinda
meditate
you know, using kind of a mist mystical
third of approach to to healing,
it scares me when I look in myself,
If I don't like what I see when
I look at myself. I I look at
myself,
and and I see a sinner, but then
I'm reminded, I'm appointed, the holy spirit of

(14:58):
points me to the gospel
and reminds me that my position is in
Christ
and to him in legal sense, and this
is what
nation by faith is. God has declared us
to be right in God.
And if I wanna know my identity, ephesians
want talks about over and over again, how
we are in Christ.
And I love C chapter 1 and 2,

(15:20):
you know, the set your hearts and minds
on things above, not earthly things for you
have died
and your life is hidden with God in
Christ.
And then he says this, set san simplification
is the process of becoming life Jesus. That's
true,
is simply becoming who you really are.
And... And I get what he's saying there

(15:41):
that, you know, becoming who God has declared
you to be. But then he says in
god's presence, who you are in Christ
is revealed to you.
Your your thoughts on that, particularly that phrase
in
Yeah. Well,
yeah. So there's there's some good things there,
but
the the foundation is is faulty.

(16:02):
We would argue. So you must start with
God. You have to start with the h
of God,
and you...
Just as you were talking there, Mitch, maybe
me think of I... Isaiah. When Isaiah had
kind of like his call to ministry in
chapter 6, he had this vision this encounter
of God,
and he saw
god in all his h.

(16:25):
And what was his response?
He he could
I'm ruined. Yeah. So he could see himself
a aright.
So it starts with God. You see God
in his glory in his h.
And then we see ourselves a right. And
so he said, what was me? I'm ruined
of a man of un clean lips I'd
well in the midst of of a people

(16:45):
of un clean lips.
And so if if we're going to see
ourselves
right,
then we need to see God right. And
so that's... God is always... The starting point,
the foundation, that's kind of the launch pad.
So I I wanted to mention that,

(17:07):
And in doing so, I forgot what your
question was. So so
take me back to what you were asking.
Took I I'd I don't remember, but you're
on a good flow here. Once you why
you comment on some of the things that
you wrote,
you you quote page 37 to really understand
your identity have to properly divide soul and

(17:28):
spirit, and you have some great thoughts in
response to that.
Yeah. So so that's
another core element for soul care is the
division of
soul and spirit.
And so the the spirit... Well, that's we're
in Christ, where we we have the holy
spirit.
That's clean, but our soul is messy.

(17:50):
And it it's filled with with all that
soul sludge.
And so we need to free ourselves of
that.
Now let let me just say that that
there's not
not exactly
consensus within the Christian world,
that we are... That we should divide soul
and spirit.
A lot of people would say that that

(18:11):
who we are as as human beings
is body and soul.
There's kind of that that duality there.
Doctor Rob Bree would say that, no, we're
tri
If if if that's
the right phrase.
And so we're body soul and spirit.
The the danger,

(18:31):
you start to divide soul and spirit
is,
well,
it's inn. You can go in all kinds
of different directions.
And I... Sometimes I feel like he does.
But it it kind of it it it
gives him that that freedom,
to say that your spirit's is good, your
spirit

(18:52):
is,
where it needs to be in Christ,
but your soul is what what needs the
care and what needs
healing.
Let me go back to the the whole
identity part.
Here's another quote from
chapter 1 or principle 1.

(19:13):
He writes on the cross, the father said
to you and me you are of infinite
worth to me. I declare you to be
worthy.
Of my son's blood.
Now think about that,
probably a lot of people are are going
to amen that,
but are we truly worthy
of the sun's blood?

(19:35):
I would I would say no,
what while we do need to find our
identity in Christ,
and we do have great value in him,
we're not worthy.
Of the shed blood of christ.
Only Christ is worthy.
We are un, and that's where we get
the
the teaching of grace. You know, God gives

(19:57):
us
what we do not deserve.
We don't merit
salvation. We don't... You know, Jesus
was not obligated
to to die on the cross to shed
his blood for us.
So, To me, this is yet another example
of Re elevating
man

(20:17):
and and diminishing the work of the atonement.
Yeah. He... This is from ephesians to us
think about this when you were talking,
it describes us being dead in our sins
in verse lung
used to walk and, you know, fall the
course of this world, etcetera,
we live in the passions there are flash.

(20:37):
So this is all who we were before
Christ died for us carrying out the desires
of the body and the mind. We were
by nature. This is this is who Christ
died for. We're by nature, children of wrath
like the rest a mankind, but god
being rich and mercy because of his great
love with which he loved us, even when
we were dead in our

(20:58):
things made us alive together with price.
You know, our value
is given to us things
by price,
his value is imp to us.
You know, when God looks at us, he
sees price. He sees the value of his
side who who died for W sinner, you

(21:18):
know, at amazing grace,
who saved the re like knee,
but then why is that important? I mean,
people might say, hey, we're qui w over,
you know, phrases and what why why does
that matter? Because it does affect how we
preach, You know, how we preach the gospel.
Either
we either preach that we're good and we
can be better or that we're bad and

(21:40):
Jesus is better and
how he he gave us his righteous and
this Why why does this really matter when
we talk about the our identity?
Yeah. Because if if you don't see yourself,
as as ruined and corrupted in sin,
and and really evil,
and that it says that in scripture in

(22:01):
places.
Then we're not gonna run to Christ. We're
not going to see him as as that
beautiful mer savior,
who will alone can provide atonement and forgiveness
of sin.
So we need to,
we need to see ourselves for who we
are, and and here's another verse. Like like
we said, there's so many, but Mark 07:21,

(22:24):
from within
out of the heart of man come evil
thoughts, sexual immoral, theft, murder adultery cove wicked
to seat,
sensuality, envy nbc s or, pride, foolish
all these evil things come from within
and they def file a person.
So it's not a pretty picture. That's what

(22:45):
we find within,
and it's only
in Christ that we find true h.
And so it's
when you know who you are,
then that
that makes grace
so amazing. You know, why why would God
save me when when that's what's within me.

(23:05):
It just got people might say though that
the people might say yes, but when you
come to Christ and and you're now believer
your identity has changed. How how does it
still... Why does this still matter for us
to see ourselves
as centers,
he but saved by brakes. I mean, what...
What's the what's the... Because he is writing
this 2 believers.

(23:25):
Right. Who are who are struggling with... And
we can talk a little bit about the
whole being victim and who's to blame.
But but why why is this still relevant
to people who are believers?
Yeah. So it's it's the difference between
justification and san justification. So in in our
just... Vacation, we are declared, not guilty.

(23:48):
You know, God took upon himself,
through Christ, all of our sins.
And now we're forgiven and and we're freed.
We're we're we're justified.
We're given the righteousness of Jesus,
we we have his perfect righteousness.
At the same time,

(24:08):
we still have this flesh
nature.
That's so annoying and and
it... It's such a hard battle,
but it's critical. Darn suitcase leak carry around
with us. The suitcase. Yeah. We we
So that's san vacation. That san vacation, and
and that is working out our salvation.

(24:30):
That is
putting on christ.
And so I I would
whereas Re would would use the the language
more of empty the suitcase so that you
it can be filled with something else.
I would say, let's just use the the
language of scripture.
And and

(24:51):
the language of scripture is simply to to
put off.
Put off all that is old within you,
all that that nastiness that's in the heart
and put on Christ,
so I... Let let's... If we're gonna use
analog,
let's use the ones that we find in
scripture.
Put off, put on.

(25:14):
Yeah. I love that. I love that.
And and then when we when we find
ourselves still sending, we're reminded...
Of what crisis has done for us that
were in him, and we repent, and we
go back to believing what has been said
about us
the question that I asked you you forgot
what the question was was, the phrasing God's

(25:35):
presence,
who you are in Christ is revealed to
you.
And and I would I would say it's
not in god's presence that you... Who you
are in Christ revealed to you. It's through
scripture.
It's it's by believing scripture, what scripture says
about you. What it says about Christ, what
it says about you. So now that's what
I was asking to respond to? And and

(25:57):
I think
it's true that a lot of times we
we struggle to believe.
That God has forgiven us.
But
God does not lie. And and so if
He says as far as the east is
from the West.
That's how far I've removed your,
we need to believe that. We need to

(26:19):
trust as promises. And so we don't need
some, you know, mystical
experience,
and these kinds of things are given in
the book.
Some mystical experience where we see Jesus and
and he's telling us that he forgive us
and that he's healed us. We don't need
that. We just need to to believe what
God has already declared in his word.

(26:40):
So the word is
sufficient. We don't need
visions.
We just need to to trust that what
God says is
true
and that we truly are.
Why does the phrase accessing the presence of
the spirit to make you
nervous or causes you pause?

(27:03):
Well, it...
Because that can mean a a whole lot
of different things to different people,
and and it kind of
it it smack more of a feeling
or or seeing something
rather than just believing. Yeah. Experiencing something. Yeah.

(27:24):
That's a really good point.
So instead of,
we walk by faith,
and not by sight, it's almost like
Rob Re wants us to walk by sight
and not by faith.
He wants us to see he wants us
to experience it rather than just
believe it and and trust the sufficiency of

(27:44):
God's word.
Yeah. I love the the ham where it
says it is enough that Jesus died and
that he died for me.
And
and and that that brings me joy. That
brings me he that brings me happiness to
know that I I am forgiven. And when
I send,
hey. It comes from within me still. I

(28:05):
live in this flesh body that continues to
sin.
I'm appointed by the holy spirit. It's more
that the holy spirit has access to me,
not I have access to him,
but he points me to the scripture reminds
me. Of a Christ has done for me.
It's like in John 14 26, He will
teach you
all things and bring to remembrance what I

(28:27):
have told you
And I was actually gonna say some, you
know, quote that verse in the the next
part of repentance. Alright. We you feel like
we've... Set enough about identity and move on
now to repentance.
Yeah. Yep.
Alright. Good I'll let you start.
Sure.
So we would start off by saying that

(28:48):
there's also some some really good material in...
This chapter on repentance,
things that we can affirm, particularly at the
start of the chapter,
but ultimately,
just like chapter 1, it falls
short.
And
in many ways, it's more psychological
than it is. Biblical or spiritual. It's kinda

(29:11):
like bible plus,
and that's a consistent problem throughout
but we would... I I think it's important
to unpack
what exactly
biblical repentance is. So may maybe Mitch, you
could
run us through what exactly
in a nutshell, the bible teaches on repentance.

(29:33):
Yeah. Repentance and and we can go to
acts chapter 2 where
the...
Disciples are preaching. Peter's preaching,
and he's preaching the clear message of the
gospel.
Who Jesus is, what he came
to do. He was the 1 who was
promised in the old testament.

(29:54):
And then he condemns them. He points to
them,
and and and basically says you are the
ones who killed them. So, again, that kind
of challenges the sole notion of how...
You know, Christ died because we're so valuable.
It's like, no, We're responsible for his death.
Yeah.
And
And, yeah.
I well, I would say that

(30:18):
in a nutshell,
biblical repentance involves turning away from sin.
So they... In acts chapter 2,
that was the the greatest crime in history,
You know, that they put the the sin
spot list son of God,
upon the cross, and they were guilty,
but so too are we. You know, every

(30:39):
all have sinned all of turned away all
of falling short worry about. And and if
we're if we're... If our if our motivation
is our value,
why would they it's say, in verse 37,
they heard this. They were cut to the
heart.
That is sorrow over sin. That's.
Yeah that has to be the posture of

(31:01):
someone who
truly will receive full forgiveness is to first
see how horribly
They treated their savior, and we all need
to see ourselves as pal for what
what Price did.
And and so they they cried out to
Peter and say, Brothers, what shall we do.
And what does Peter say? Repent and be

(31:22):
backed. Size every 1 of you in the
name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of
your sins.
And and, you know, repentance is
It's the change of mind.
It's it it's the change of thinking.
It's I'm no longer against Christ. I'm for
him now. It's but this is a this
is the spiritual work. I mean, the the

(31:44):
message of the gospel
brought about as the holy spirit used that
message. It brought such... Deep conviction that that
same holy spirits
also offered the gift of of salvation and
the gift of life. And so when it
says there you receive the gift
spirits,
you know, we we can
assume that some people will

(32:05):
take that to mean the the substance of
good subsequent gifts that we receive, which I
think it could imply that. But I think
the main gift here that we have peace
with God.
So, which is the greatest gift that's been
given to us. So so biblical repentance is
to be overwhelmed with our sin to say
like Paul,
W man that I have, who will rescue
me from this body of death. Thanks be

(32:27):
to god through our lord of Jesus Christ.
Amen. Yeah. It's it's it's that deep
hatred that that intense
sorrow over our sin.
Realizing that that we've missed the mark.
And to some extent, I think that's that's
captured
but it's lacking. So for example, Mh. Re

(32:50):
quotes from first John chapter 1, I think
versus 5 to 10.
Where it talks about we need to
confess our sins and and know that he's
faithful and just to forgive us of our
sins.
And
anyone that denies
that he's a sinner clearly does not have
God. So so that's there.

(33:11):
But I don't sense that there's that kind
of that deep heartfelt
or
conviction over our sin.
We can't move forward. That's that's helpful. That's
understandable and you look at his later principle
of
family,
you know, breaking family sin patterns that that

(33:32):
you're you're struggling
because of the
blame, you know, the blame of what someone
else has done to you, which will we'll
get to. But... Sorry. I cut in on
you there. Keep going.
Yeah. Well, I hope you don't forget what
you were saying because it was good.
Well, let let me illustrate this from my
own life.

(33:53):
There was
time years ago, many years ago,
where I was just a very dishonest person
and where I
lied a lot and
covered up the truth that was just d
sequel.
And and the holy spirit really had to
convict me.
I I had to have a change of

(34:13):
mind because beforehand, I thought, well, this is
being dishonest is helping me get ahead. You
know, I can project an image of myself
and people can think that I'm I'm better
than I really am.
And
it it it it,
would advance me.
I had to come to the realization that
this number 1, this is not helping me.

(34:34):
This is this is not
the kind of character that I need. And
number 2, this is not honoring to god.
And and that's
that's the kicker right there. That's that's the
main thing. This does not honor god. So
my thinking
had to change.
Had to change big time,
and and there was that process of of

(34:55):
healing.
But it starts with
with really hating your sin,
and kinda like Paul,
you know, W man that I am, who
will deliver me from this body of death,
I I really had to go through that
whole process.
And so I... Past that...
Yeah. Go ahead.

(35:16):
Yeah.
To some extent that's in this chapter,
but it does fall short.
And 1 of the big reasons why is
because there's...
He doesn't really unpack,
what repentance looks like practically speaking. So there's...
You know, I have books in my library,

(35:37):
whole books that that deal with the subject
over patents, and they're not small. I mean,
some of them are, but some of them
are hundreds of pages.
So this is this is AAA big subject
and granted soul... This the Soul care ministry
is not just about repentance.
But I think there's a a real...
Lack of understanding

(35:58):
in the Christian church,
when it comes to
repentance. Let me give you another example,
there was a gentleman in in a church
that I pastor,
and he became very offended.
That I was using the word,
repent or repentance.
And in his view, I was using it

(36:19):
way too frequently.
He became so
preoccupied with this
that he was actually going back to to
old Sermon that I had preached.
And counting the number of times that I
use the word ends.
Yeah. I know I know it sounds comic,
but he was
it was very offensive to him, and I
don't think that that's abnormal in this day

(36:40):
and age. People
people hear repentance and when it's...
When the preacher the teacher is talking bell
biblical
repent,
it is offensive.
Because it's implying,
it's teaching that you are wrong, and that
you're lust or your dishonest or your gossip
or your anger or whatever.

(37:02):
That that's wrong.
And you need to change.
And if you don't change
by the grace of God, you're in danger
of help You know, there's there's passages that
say that.
So it's...
That's where the church is lacking, and I
think that's where soul care,
fall short because there... There's not

(37:23):
the that deep biblical understanding
of
repentance.
Well, let's... He he uses a really
interesting example here and it it shows how
there's a divergence. Here and understand repentance. So
this is more a path into the... It's
a spiritual of of repentance. If I can
put it that way of
of going back into an experience and then

(37:46):
picturing Jesus there. Again, we talked about this
being what's often called this the theo pho
counseling. But he
he meets a young girl who had her
aborted her baby.
He's meeting with her has her close eyes
and go back and kinda remember,
that experience, even the smells and sounds and
in in that moment, she's describing those things,

(38:10):
he he urges her to picture Jesus there,
and to listen to Jesus says he's speaking
to her, and she describes Jesus coming into
the room, holding the baby, and then Re
kinda takes on the voice of of Jesus
here saying, Jesus, it's a boy.
You will meet him again in heaven. He's
not angry with you in neither a Am

(38:31):
mi that's Jesus speaking there. I forgiven you
as he does. That's Rem speaking.
Now go and send no more you are
released.
And and there again, it's accessing the presence
of God,
not responding to the gospel,
Dan, few... And I've had I've had people

(38:51):
me with me as a pastor who've had
an abortion.
I've never dared to go down this this
path.
Of of of going into some mystical experience
and then God showing up. What would you
say to someone who came to you
and was basically
confessing this horrible burden,
yeah the sin that they had committed.

(39:13):
Well, well, first of all, I I think
I don't have it in front of me,
but in fairness to to to Rob Re.
I don't think it was...
Kim, who was saying that. I think he
was... This is what
the lady in that story. That was her...
That she was hearing. Okay. So okay.
Easy to make that mistake, but I, in

(39:33):
fairness I stand corrected on that. Yeah.
Yeah So what I would say is... Yeah.
I mean, you you read it and it's
it, you know, it kinda tug at the
hearts strings, and and you're you're... It's very
tough... And you're like, wow what a story.
But I don't see that in scripture. Number
1,
and I would go back to what I
said, fetching 4, if if I was counseling

(39:55):
somebody like that, I would just encourage her
to to meditate on the promises of scripture
that that God has forgiven you that as
literally as far as the East is from
the West, that's how far
your sin,
has been removed from you, your.
So you are free. You don't have to

(40:15):
carry that burden.
Believe the promise of God
so it's... Because she's repent of that and
asks for free.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's it's forgiven and
God's word is sufficient. He said it, I
believe it in
and
that's not to say that that the holy

(40:36):
spirit doesn't need to work in her heart,
to
to a reminder her over and over again
that she is forgiven
Well, that's the assurance of part in that
the whole assurance. Yeah. The offer. Yeah. A
great contrasting example. I heard a a be
british path her talk about a girl that
had come to
confess to him that

(40:57):
she had had an abortion.
And the Lutheran are this is a Lutheran
pastor and and they're great. Actually, when it
was Brian Wolf Mueller he's an American Lutheran
pastor. I just absolutely love.
And and he went through a, kind of
an app solution
exercise with her, which which basically is scripture,
You know, you confessed and the...

(41:18):
The pastor kind of a, you know, reminds
the
individual what scripture says. And she repent of
it. He reminded her that she's forgiven.
Send her away. A couple weeks later, she
came up to him, and she
mentioned the abortion again, and he said, what
abortion?
And, of course, the point was it's forgotten.
It's forgiven. It the, it didn't in in

(41:40):
in some sense in God's eyes, it didn't
happen.
You know? So, again, this is a huge
difference between the using scripture and using the
power and presence of God. It's
again, our concern here is it puts a
person in this case, Rob or people that
he's teaching.
And I'm sad when when pastors take on
this... Responsibility. I think it's a huge burden.

(42:02):
And that there are the ones that have
to play this,
the
authoritative
role as kind of a high priest mediator
I'm sorry. That... That's unfair, Rob to put
on the people that you're training and teaching.
And and and it's bypassing the word of
God. To remind him of how they're forgiven.

(42:23):
And and I would I would encourage pastors
to to just run whenever they,
they're they're being exposed to this sort of
thing.
Well, the thing... Another thing
with that story,
like I said, it's touching its heartfelt, but
it has nothing to do with repentance.
You know, if this is a chapter on

(42:43):
the end.
But it's...
Repentance is... Well, it's thought she was set
free of the burden and the guilt and
the shame. Right? So in that sense, it
fits, you know?
Yeah. Dan, you don't like the...
At first, I like it. You've kinda talked
me out of it, but, you know, Robin.
Teaches total life confession. He does that personally.

(43:04):
He meets with mentors or friends and
occasionally goes through a complete total life confession,
what's your concern there?
Yeah. Well... It's not all bad. It's it's
just... When I first read that I was
kinda like,
who has time to to do a total
like...
That that... You know, I'm I'm 41,

(43:25):
and I... There's a lot that I could
share and
if if I was to do that with
someone,
even if I was fully transparent and honest,
I'm still gonna be editing, and and there's
probably
areas that I'm going to omit,
and there's certainly sins,

(43:46):
that I'm not aware of that I was
guilty of 20 years ago or 30 years
ago. It's it's just... So we we...
We're always going to be telling our story
from our perspective,
which means
it's going to be fallen that's gonna be
limited. It's not... Going to be fully accurate.
So

(44:07):
I would just say, yes, we do need...
We're we're called to confess our sins to
1 another James 5
but I would see that more as,
if you send against some brother, you know,
go and
confess it.
And and, yes, if if you're deep in
pornography,
maybe it's helpful
to to go and talk to a brother

(44:28):
who's... Who's been there and and understands you
it can pray for you and and support
you.
But I just don't see us a precedent
for a total life
confession. And I think the big point is
when we confess
we go directly to our great High priest.
If you

(44:49):
if you want to confess and and you
should want to confess,
as a believer, then you go to Jesus.
You go directly to him. Mh. So those...
Yeah. Those were some of my concerns with
that. It's it's maybe it's secondary
because
I I think it IIII
agree with you with how impractical it is,

(45:09):
maybe not. Not.
I I shared with you that I took
a guy through an app solution
exercise that the Lutheran use and
had an elder there with him, and he
read through it, you know, confessed to him.
We reminded him. He was forgiven and and
then called him to obey. At the heart
of it really is to go back to

(45:30):
the cross and they realized that or believe
again that he died for all of my
sins
Yep. And
and if we confess our sins, he's faithful
and Just to forgive us a large large
sins and that cleanse us from all righteousness.
Next verse. If we continue to send, we
have an advocate who speaks to the father
in our defense, which is what you're

(45:51):
you're arguing for hey. On the on the
last bit of repentance,
he makes a statements
that,
hey, let's see. The breath of the spirit
needs to blow across these eternal truths so
that what is known will become
revelation.
And you make the point here that he

(46:11):
seems to make a distinction between known and
revelation.
What's what's your concern there?
Again, that's that's it's not a huge concern.
It's it's just
known
if if we know something,
then we know it because
it's revealed.

(46:32):
And so if God has revealed it to
us, then he's made it known. So the
the the whole distinction there is a little
bit confusing.
And and it... Maybe it speaks to to
more of that... That mystical faith that he's
calling us to. Yeah. You know, the the
the breath of the spirit, the, you know,

(46:52):
revel
presence of Jesus,
There's there's a lot of talk... Lot of
stories of of
teaching people to see pictures to have visions,
revelations.
Yeah I have a friend who went to
a conference and part of the
exercise during that conference. This was not with
Soul care, but was to help help people,

(47:13):
you know, guide them to picturing what the
holy spirit sharing to them and then draw
it out. And
there's a large alliance church in the northwest
I happened to be listening to. They had
a guest speaker teaching
the children and the parents
they have pictures from God, because And then
to share that with each other. And I

(47:34):
remember dialog with a pastor and just really
challenging that, but that comes up in the
in the chapter on repentance that
you know, he... He'll make the comment. I'm
gonna pray that you see his face,
and that the spirit of God will just
show you a picture of Jesus,
And and the ultimate
outcome there is that you will,

(47:55):
you know, experience
forgiveness by repent in that sort of...
Sensational moments. And
we say no. Open your bible point to
the 1 who came
in the flesh 2000 years ago,
lived like us a perfect life and photo
h died in our place was buried, was
raised again was ascended,

(48:16):
that's the picture we need. It's the picture
of the gospel.
There's again, it just it it just makes
me so nervous that we're teaching this.
Yeah. Yeah. And and a a great way
to to illustrate that would be the parable
of the rich man and Lazarus
from Yep. Loop chapter 16.
And and if I can just summarize the

(48:37):
story,
Jesus sets it up, you've got this rich
man. He lives it up in this earthly
life, lazarus.
He's extremely poor.
They both die
and lazarus, he ends up in heaven.
Carried by the angels to Abraham side,
the rich man ends up in Hades in

(48:57):
torment.
And so
the rich man
he's kinda like, father Abraham have mercy on
me, you know, tell Lazarus to to go
provide relief for my torment.
And so, Abraham, he he basically says, well,
you know, there's this great chasm.
He can't go to you. You can't go

(49:19):
to him.
That's not gonna work.
Well, then the the Rich man says then
I beg you father, send him to my
father's house for I have 5 brothers.
So that he may warn them lest they
also come into this place of torment.
Kinda like if if they see this guy
raised from the dead,

(49:39):
then they'll believe.
But Abraham said they have Moses and the
prophets let them hear them,
and he said no father, Abraham, but if
someone goes to them from the dead, they
will repent.
And then this is this is the key
verse if they do not hear Moses in
the prophets, neither will they be convinced.
If someone should rise from the dead.

(50:00):
So we see there the sufficiency of scripture,
You know, people keep looking for something more
plus,
when the bible over and over, particularly the
the teaching of Jesus are lord to he's
saying you you need to believe you have
Moses. You have the prophets.
You have the word of God.

(50:21):
That's sufficient.
Believe in the word. You don't need all
these, you know, these mystical visions,
trust the the power and sufficiency of God's
word.
Dan, if anything will make people nervous or
prone to want to see signs,
hear this from,
Matthew
12:38

(50:42):
39.
He answered, or the... The then some of
the ph season and of lot said teachers,
we wanna see a sign from you. He
answered a wicked and adult risk generation asks
were assigned,
but none will give it except for the
sign or the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah
was 3 days and 3 nights in the
belly of the huge fish.
So so the son of man will be

(51:02):
3 days and 3 nights in the heart
of the earth.
The only sign we need
is
the sign of the gospel, the sign of
the cross, the symbol of the cross.
The only story we need is not from
visions and dreams and
whatever God brings to your mind. It's it's
the story of the gospel.

(51:22):
That is sufficient.
You know, all all scriptures inspired from God
profitable for rebuke for correction for teaching and
righteousness.
And so, again, I would just really caution
pastors who are getting caught up in this
because it's becoming so prevalent even within our
our own denomination.
Amen. Amen.

(51:43):
Alright, Dan. Let's go ahead and move on
and talk about the third principle of breaking
family send. Patterns,
what what's going on here? Because I I
think we'd probably have more concerns about this,
or as much as we do the last
principle
Yeah.
So
this principle,
the third 1 really on unpack,

(52:04):
looking back...
At your family of Origin,
and particularly,
looking at those those
prevalent sin patterns.
And so doctor Rob Re, he tells stories
of going and talking to his grandma,
She was kinda like the the family guardian,
and she was the 1 that everybody looked

(52:25):
to, and she was the 1 that knew
the the family secrets.
And he he talks about how
she explained to them that there was this,
sin of sexual immoral similarity
that was in the family,
and it was really devastating to the family.
And so I I think the the simple

(52:46):
way to the simple way that I would
respond to that is
there there are... There is value in that.
There's value in in understanding
your history, your family tree.
Some of the the things that have
really been problematic.

(53:07):
However,
I I think you...
Where it becomes problematic is when you become
so obsessed
with tracking down all the family's dirty laundry.
And knowing all the the the history.
And thinking that that's somehow going to help
you
in in your
quest

(53:27):
for soul deliverance and and soul health, so
to speak.
But and and 1 of the other
things that I find is problematic is
it it's almost like Re implying that
this is a big deal.
He's not saying you're cursed,
but he he's saying you need to take

(53:48):
this very seriously. You know, there might be
things in the closet.
That you need to uncover. And if you
don't,
they could really drag you down.
And I'm gonna say
no.
Yeah. And and the exercise to
determine that is not always.

(54:09):
You know, doing a research, you know, go
to ancestors dot com, track your family, get
their story.
Again, a lot of this happens through mystical
experiences and
you know, kinda channel... Sorry for using that
term, but channel the holy spirit to,
for the holy spirit to reveal these things,
and and I know he gives different stories

(54:30):
where
that's the case. You know, Dan, when when
my son travis died of cancer at the
age of 13,
someone came to me once. And and he
was a trusted friend. I wasn't a offended
by it at all because I've been thinking
it myself. They said, you know, have you
ever thought that maybe
you know, God took Travis because of your

(54:50):
sins, and my wife had hit just had
brain cancer before that. So there was a
lot happening to my family,
with And I I remember saying, you know,
I don't think so. That's just not the
way I view God based on how he's
revealed and... Scripture, but he certainly has the
right to,
and he has a table full of sins
to have chosen from. He wouldn't have had

(55:12):
much difficulty to decide which sand would have
been,
you know, reason or cause for punishing me.
But I... You know,
it's just a dangerous thing to it to
go there, you know, to try to... And
and I know when I've counsel, you know,
younger, vulnerable Christians who've experienced hardships, they'll
they'll blame themselves for it. You know? And

(55:35):
and you know, there's there's been times where
I've said unless the holy spirit reveals that
to you. But again, that kinda goes down
that. Track of Mh. Of, you know, him
revealing himself to you outside the scripture, which
makes me nervous,
I think where I point to people is
just the
attributes of God. He's good. He's faithful. He's

(55:56):
just.
He's fully... He's always gonna do what's good.
And I do know that 1 of the
outcomes of losing my son was... A a
desire for h, You know, a deeper desire
for purity.
But that was more reacting to this awesome
God. It wasn't me, the going on this,
you know, getting my shovel and, you know,

(56:17):
digging for, you know, my past and what
might have contributed to that. So
anyway, just a personal story there how I
Yeah. Encountered that. And you, you know, the
they they asked Jesus who send, You know,
the blind man. So,
hit him or his parents,
and Jesus said neither, this happens so the
works of God might be displayed or revealed

(56:39):
in him.
Yeah. So even Jesus quickly talked them out
of that. It was a common,
you know, perception bad then as someone sick
must have been the sins of his parents
or grandparents.
Well, here's here's another potential problem when you
focus too much on your family's sins.

(57:00):
They become the culprit. So it's... The reason
I they should pay reparations
The reason the way that I'm
the reason I'm so messed up today is
because a mom and dad. Or because of
gram and Grandpa, it's their fault, and they
passed it along to me,
and
I'm not guilty

(57:22):
Listen to what it says in Ezekiel chapter
18.
Yet you say,
why should not the son suffer for the
ini of the father.
When the sun is done, what is just
and right and has been careful to observe
all my statute,
he shall surely live. The soul who sins
shall die. The son shall not suffer for
the ini of the father,

(57:43):
nor the father suffer for the ini of
the son. The righteousness,
of the righteous shall be upon himself
and the wicked of the wicked shall be
upon himself.
So that clearly of
lays the blame lays the guilt
upon the individual.
It's it's so easy and and really we
live

(58:04):
in
a victim society where
my problems
are not because of me and my my
own bad heart, it's because of
someone else or my bad circumstances
in life,
something like that.
We need to take responsibility
for our own sense.

(58:25):
And and while it can be helpful to
to understand
family patterns and
and those kinds of things.
At the end of the day, we need
to to uncover our own sin,
and then move forward,
according to scripture according to what we find
in the gospel.
So that's... That that would be another concern

(58:47):
is
we can shift the blame rather than taking
responsibility
ourself.
Yeah. And again, what's happening in soul care
at conferences is getting people. To...
Again, I've never attended, but I've watched it
online, done a lot of lot of research
on this, but, again, it's getting people to
kinda track

(59:07):
back through the guidance of the holy spirit
to
identify things that maybe have been done. You
know, my my dad,
often would share how his parents were not
believers.
His dad was not affectionate.
But he made a concerted effort to not
be like them,

(59:27):
and he never spiritual it. You know, he...
He... And I would encourage people to to...
You know, I guess, glean something from this
that, hey, maybe you are the way you
are because of the environment that you were
raised in, And certainly, if your father was
an abuser
and was an alcoholic, and he beat his
wife or beat you or abused you. That's

(59:50):
a spiritual problem.
You know? But
but don't blame your own sin on that.
You know, acknowledge that you had a horrible
role model and
and that that created a horrible even spiritual
environment that that even perhaps contributed to your
view of God
but repent of that bad view of God

(01:00:10):
and and get to know this new God,
the, you know, your new father, by way
of scripture,
And and that's a much healthier
way to you know, to to be healed
and to be in a in a healthy
place as an individual
he talks about Joseph as an example of
this in the Old testament and talk a
little bit about that because that's rather intriguing.

(01:00:33):
Yeah. Because Joseph is known as the only
character in the bible outside of Daniel that
there's no ascent... There's no sin attributed to
him.
To them. It it doesn't mean they weren't
sinner, but they...
You know, and I think they're portrayed that
way to be a a great price type,
a shadow of price for us.
Yeah. Yeah. Good point. So

(01:00:53):
yeah. Rob Re, he he deals with the
story of Joseph. And it it was... Concerning
to me because, like you, I've I've always
kind of esteem
Joseph.
This was a man of exe character
but he
paints in different picture, a very different picture.
Does. Re paints a very different peach picture.

(01:01:16):
Yeah. So
he begins by... He's talking about favor
and how that can be passed along. It
talks about David and Abraham, I believe.
And it's almost like
Re is blaming Joseph
for his father's favor.
Now clearly, Joseph was a favorite. Nobody's gonna
argue with that.

(01:01:37):
But he makes it into
a character issue.
Joseph
if you read the whole story, we know
that Joseph is the favorite because of his
mother because of Rachel. A ratio was the
wife that Jacob truly loved.
That's why he's... Or or as it says
in

(01:01:57):
in the story,
Joseph was the son of his old age.
That's why Jacob loved Joseph. Mh
And yet
Re says that the reason
that Joseph gave,
a bad report, of his brothers was because
of some character deficiency. He was

(01:02:18):
striving. He was craving that favor,
and and he makes
of Joseph into the bad guy.
And, I'm just like, well, if you look
at if you look at Joseph's brothers,
clearly there was some issues there. He kinda
makes them to be innocent
when they're the ones that in just a
short while,

(01:02:38):
they sold them into slavery. In fact, they
wanted to kill him.
That speaks to me
of men who have some serious
sin issues.
And then we we continue to read the
story and and even
still early on when Joseph's in Egypt.
And Pot first wife is after him trying
to seduce him. And what's he doing, He's

(01:02:59):
running away from that when
most people, most men would not do that.
So
this is
this is not a story about a troubled
young man,
who was all about comparison and superiority and
keeping
himself as as the father's favorite favorite.
But that's what Re implies.

(01:03:22):
So at the end of the day I
mean, you'll have to read the... You'll have
to read it for yourself.
But for me, this is problematic, and this
is an example. Of Re are doing what's
called iso jesus
rather than exe jesus.
So he's he's got He's talking about favor
and he's looking for a story on... That
that illustrates that. So he lands on Joseph.

(01:03:45):
And and then he ends up reading something
into the text
that's not there that isn't there. Yeah. Just
the bolster point.
Yeah.
Yeah. And then really, Call the pastors to
be exe identical to do x exe jesus
read out of the text. Don't read into
the text. Iso jesus is wrong.
Jesus is good.

(01:04:07):
Well, and look for look for the plain
meaning of the text. Yeah.
We we have no reason to to doubt
Joseph's character. I mean, maybe he was un
otherwise to... And maybe even a little boast
to share... Yeah, the dreams.
And well, that's another thing is,
it's almost like Re kinda cast out In

(01:04:28):
terms of whether those those dreams were really
divine. Like... Yeah. And I'm, like, wait a
minute. I mean, that that's that's what the
scripture says. Clearly... Yeah. You. We take... All,
this makes people listening to this, say,
oh, wow. It is in the bible, You
know, but we're saying, yeah. It's in the
bible, but it's being read wrong.

(01:04:49):
So don't don't read the bible wrong. Read
it read it correctly and you won't come
up with with this conclusion
It's not a supporting text we're saying.
Yeah. And, you know, don't be looking for
some fancy
interpretation. Just go with with the plain meaning
of scripture
and and don't try and read something in

(01:05:11):
that's not there. So that that was... Yeah.
With that was concerning, and I just get
the feeling that he doesn't handle the scriptures
with care.
Yeah. And that's that's a big red flag
for me.
Okay. Anything else on that last point,
we'll we'll do the next 1 and then
wrap up
forgiving others.

(01:05:32):
Unless you have any comments about family patterns?
No. I I think we, I mean, there's
more to say, but we should probably move
on to... Forgiving Yeah. And there's not all
lot to sand forgiving others. We we really
felt like this as a a, you know,
fairly good chapter, Probably a few things
you know, that we're concerned about.
You know, again, he he gives an, you

(01:05:54):
know,
illustration here of,
of a gal who he meets with who's
deeply hurt and she shared how she hated
everybody in her family. She hated her pastor.
She
resorted to drinking, you know, to cover the
pain.
So Re addresses what's in her soul, not
in her heart or mind,

(01:06:16):
again, that gets very nuanced and complicated and
confusing.
But after sharing her pain with Re, he
was... Responds with this. Are you ready to
let Jesus access your soul? He pray and
says, Lord Jesus come and drain the pain
from that which is locked
inside or heart.
So again, take the suitcase, dump it out.

(01:06:39):
So you know, what basically Ways arguing doing
here is, again, is the presence of God
that touched
and untouchable... 4 of of pain in her
life, that that which had been buried in
her souls.
He so for 30 minutes as a result
of this,
you know, that's that's where forgiveness came. It's
a weird thing. It's, again, rather than pointing

(01:07:01):
you the and say, hey.
You send, repent, ask or forgiveness, be reminded
that Jesus for Day. It's gone through this
little...
Again, journey to experienced something mystical that
you know, can be our... It it's hard
to argue it didn't happen unless you just
all I believe that these things don't happen,

(01:07:21):
you know?
Yeah.
Yeah. Like, well, like you said... You know,
we would argue the way to respond to
hate anger, pain is to repent and
accept the forgiveness of Jesus and then stop
doing it. That You know, that that's the
obedient burn away.
Yeah. Yeah.
So so 1 of the things...
Yeah. Let... Like you said off the bat,

(01:07:42):
you
there's
things that we can certainly affirm in here,
you must forgive. You know, Jesus says that
if you don't forgive,
then what makes you think your heavenly father
is going to forgive you.
So forgiveness is
absolutely essential. We're never more
like God than when we forgive.

(01:08:05):
But here's something that that is
concerning to me,
I'm not sure what page it is. III
think it's page 01:26.
If we don't take the high ground and
forgive Rem writes.
Satan will take up ground in your souls.
So here he's he's adding a consequence

(01:08:25):
that I don't I don't think...
And I I did look up the commentary
a little bit. I don't know if that's
that's a good way to read that text.
And the text is ephesians 04:26
and 27.
Oh,
so
when...
In when he talks about giving up ground,
he he doesn't just mean the influence of

(01:08:45):
the devil,
he literally means
occupied space in the heart of the believer.
So if we don't forgive this, if we
don't forgive Sin from another person,
then Satan is going to gain ground. He's
he's going to
to to fill space in your soul.
And
for me, I don't see that in scripture.

(01:09:07):
If if we don't forgive
then number 1, we're
we're being dis disobedience.
And it is going to to affect us
negatively. And and if there's this...
This pattern of unforgiveness, then
we should question whether we're truly saved because,
you know, the heart of God is a
heart to forgive.
But I don't see that

(01:09:29):
scripture implies in any way that that Satan's
going to take up ground in our soul.
And that's... I mean, we'll treat that in
the next podcast,
but this is yet another example of
Re.
Taking something from scripture and then kind of
tweaking it and adding his own little take,

(01:09:50):
which to me goes beyond scripture.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Good point. Well, I don't really have much
more to say there. Again, what... I think
our our conclusion would be that...
Again, you go to Matthew 5, if you
go to the altar there. You remember,
a brother has something against you. You you'll
be obedient and you go and and make

(01:10:11):
it right.
So many other places in scripture that tell
us to be reconciled with 1 another.
I again, I I think overarching all of
this is just a lot of spiritual things
to make it exciting to make it sensational,
to make it emotional because our emotions kinda
drive us and we feel like something has

(01:10:32):
happened because we feel it.
You know, We... There's the emotion to... And
so I it it makes sense that people
we would say false teachers would create environments
that are very
high energy and
highly emotionally charged so that there's a sense
that the spirit is working and doing stuff.
But I think it's in the quiet of

(01:10:54):
our own hearts,
thinking with our minds that the you know,
hey, there's something wrong in my heart,
and I need to be reconciled with someone
else. Therefore, go and be reconciled and do
the right thing,
and then believe that by doing that, God
bless you
and
and gives you the holy spirit to to

(01:11:15):
remind you that you you have forgiven, you
know, forgive as you have forgiven those extend
against you. That's in the Lord's prayer.
And then don't do it again. You know,
if if that anger comes back, stop it
and you don't leave allow it to be
back in. Y. Yeah. Yeah. Flashes 3 again,
put off and put on, You know? The

(01:11:35):
paul talks about the many things you stop
doing and then here are things you start
doing.
These these don't need to be spiritual because
that makes it fantastic and sensational. So I
I think that's
you know, we're calling people just to trust
what scripture says to believe what Jesus said,
about ourselves or our identity,

(01:11:56):
about, you who's responsible for sin, not family.
You are,
Jesus said something about it.
And then,
you know, forgive
repent,
just matter change your mind and
do the right thing and then be be
forgiving people. You know, It's it's really really
simple.

(01:12:17):
So we're gonna we're gonna tackle the other
ones in the next podcast,
maybe we'll do the last... You know, the
the...
Demon and w peace on the next 1
or we might.
We're hoping to invite someone to be part
of it. We haven't confirmed that yet. Yeah.
But
any closing thoughts here, Dan.
Yeah. I I would say that for those

(01:12:38):
who are caught up in soul care, and
obviously, there's many many people as we said
in the first podcast.
This has a a huge following.
But for those who are caught up and
it, it's easy, and and I know this
from top talking to people. It's easy
to become fearful.
Do I have a demon? You know, life

(01:12:58):
is not going right? I'm dealing with this
or that
And so it's only natural for them to
conclude
that, oh, maybe I've got a demon. And
people become paranoid and fearful.
And I don't blame them. You know, if
they've if they bought into this
to to this whole scheme of soul care,
they're gonna think that. But you need to...

(01:13:20):
And and we keep hammering on scripture because
we have to. You know, that's our sole
rule for faith and practice.
What does the Bible say say? Well, if
you look at first John 05:18,
it says the evil 1 does not touch
you?
Now that's a para phrase. But
if you are in Christ,
if you are truly a child of God,

(01:13:42):
the evil 1 the devil cannot touch you.
What accord does Christ have with Be bile?
So you you just see that
Satan's, you kingdom and Price kingdom, they're incompatible.
That they don't jive. They don't go together.
And therefore,
you are free, you're protected,

(01:14:03):
the evil 1 cannot touch you.
And so I just really feel for those
who who are caught up in this and
and they don't really have what what we
might call a theology of suffering. They don't
understand that
we live in a fallen world. Things are
gonna go wrong.
Life is not always gonna be the way

(01:14:24):
that we want it to be,
But just because of that, it doesn't imply
that we're demon
or that, you know,
even we're under attack. I mean, yes, we
we possibly could be,
but don't go thinking that
Satan is occupying space in your soul. And
and then you need to Yeah to be

(01:14:45):
delivered in that way.
So that's... Yeah. That would... What you made.
Yeah.
Yeah. And and you made a really good
point there. We... We're concerned about people who've
been affected by this. We're we're not attacking
anybody.
We're addressing a teaching that we have personally
seen. Dan, we... We're not doing this because
we've read books and we're oh, this is

(01:15:06):
not right. We have we have personally seen.
I wish we could tell the stories of
the number of people who've been hurt by
us. We are gonna have a separate post
with this podcast of several testimonies of people
who have seen come out of soul care.
And so this comes out of a deep
concern for people. It's not an attack
on anyone,
yeah. So... Okay. We will we will continue

(01:15:29):
this next week, hopefully, Dan. Thanks so much.
Thanks, Mitch. Take care.
Take care my.
Well, there you have, a thank you so
much for listening to this episode before you
quit podcasts. If you have any questions or
comments, You can email me at mitch, add
before you quit dot Us. So until next
time, stay encouraged

(01:15:49):
and be courageous because serving Jesus is worth
all of that hearts stuff that comes with
it. And remember what we're told in first
Corinthians 15, 57 through 58, but thanks, speak
to god. Stuff He gives us the victory
through our lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my dear
brothers and sisters stand firm, let nothing move
you always.
Give yourselves fully to the work of the

(01:16:09):
lord because you know that your labor and
the lord is not in vain. Until next
time, stay encouraged.