January 9, 2025 • 58 mins
Summary
Q: How deeply is the theme of sonship embedded in the whole Biblical narrative?
A: So deeply it will blow your mind!
In part 1 of this 2 part conversation, Jay Heck is joined by Bible scholar and Holy land tour guide Scott Heare to explore the profound and ubiquitous theme of sonship through the whole of scripture. Drawing on his deep understanding of the Biblical text and how God’s story has unfolded through human history, Scott shares with us this themes implications for identity, inheritance, and relationship with God.
Takeaways
-Sonship is a central theme in the Bible that shapes our identity.
-Understanding God as Father changes our perspective on inheritance.
-The journey of faith involves discovering the depth of sonship.
-Experiences in the Middle East can enrich one's understanding of scripture.
-The Old Testament is crucial for understanding the New Testament.
-Sonship transforms the way we read and interpret the Bible.
-Adolescence in faith reflects a struggle with identity and obedience.
-The Bible is a library of interconnected stories, not just a single narrative.
-Personal experiences can lead to a deeper revelation of sonship.
-Sonship invites us into a transformative relationship with God.
-Self-discovery often involves confronting deep-seated anger.
-Understanding one's identity in God is crucial for spiritual growth.
-The journey to sonship can be a gradual revelation.
-Asking the right questions is more important than seeking answers.
-Faith is a relationship built on ongoing conversation with God.
-The burden of maintaining appearances can be lifted through sonship.
-Scripture reveals the character of God and our identity in Him.
-Sonship transforms how we approach life and relationships.
-Embracing our identity as beloved children of God is liberating.
-The journey of faith is more about discovery than performance.
Chapters
00:00 The Foundation of Sonship
03:01 Scott's Journey and Current Work
05:51 Experiences in the Middle East
12:00 The Importance of the Old Testament
18:05 Understanding Sonship
24:09 The Transformative Power of Sonship
29:33 Journey of Self-Discovery and Anger
36:03 The Revelation of Sonship
40:17 Wrestling with Identity and Salvation
52:17 Understanding Sonship in Scripture
As referred to by Scott Heare, here is Jack Frost's teaching on sonship:
"Session 1 part 1 - Experiencing the Father's Embrace" https://youtu.be/qFByVMXxWMg?si=749zptY7PdYzz1-g
"Session 1 Part 2 - Experiencing the Father's Embrace" - https://youtu.be/Txdxv3Syw-c?si=AtEINJ0sD8d2P6gw
----------------------------------------------
Being Sons helps men live in union with God, as Father and sons.
We host solo adventures for men and 1-on-1 father + child adventures.
Learn more at https://www.beingsons.com/
On Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57RK9lH8dKi8gh8lLVtK97?si=1d49d12321b84b0e
On iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/being-sons/id1447340022
YouTube Subscribe to our free 47-week Video Journey called "The Way of Sonship": https://mailchi.mp/beingsons/way-of-sonship
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
One of the primary themes throughout all those differences in all those books is thiscolor of sonship from Adam's relationship to God, just from jump.
It's all, it's all centered on that.
He is the father and that we are his sons.
And that changes our identity, the way that we function in the world, what we can expectfrom inheritance, everything.
(00:37):
Friends sons.
Hey, welcome back to the being sons podcast.
I'm really excited to have a friend of mine, Scott Heare with us on the podcast.
Scott, welcome.
Thanks.
Glad to be here.
Pretty excited.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you for, for coming.
Scott has had a big impact on me over the years, for a lot of reasons.
(00:58):
He is, intimately involved in the organization that I come under as a 501c3 And he's beenthe chief,
vision officer, is that correct?
Yeah, chief.
It's not as made up as it sounds, but it's too close.
Okay, great.
Well, I'll ask you a little bit about that in a minute, but just to sum up a bit of whoScott is, he's many things.
(01:24):
He's a husband, he's a father, he is a very gifted teacher, he's been a pastor and a tourguide for believers in the Middle East.
very gifted at helping the Bible come alive by teaching about it in the very spots thatthese events happened.
So Scott, I'm here to learn.
I've actually been holding this conversation off for years.
(01:46):
We've had lunch, we've talked, and I have purposely, like, not wanted to go deep into thisparticular conversation about adoption and sonship, knowing that it's something that you
are passionate and gifted at teaching, because I wanted
to have it on this podcast for the benefit of all these people like me and like you whoare searching out and wanting a revelation of sonship so that we can begin living in it
(02:14):
more fully.
But I want to ask you a little bit more about yourself.
where are you, what are you doing right now in your life?
Well, as usual, God has me sort of on an adventure.
So the latest adventure, which is wild, is twofold.
probably at least twofold.
And kind of the at home thing, the thing that roots me and connects me and kind of keepsme founded is that Sunset Ridge Church is allowing me to be their pastor and preacher.
(02:45):
And so there's a community of people that I'm immersed in that I love and that's only thelast few months, but I'm just grateful for them.
So I got to start there and then just being a part of that community.
But my primary job is with the global human flourishing.
initiative, which is originally started about 2016 with the, a professor named TylerVanderWeele and a significant breakthrough in human understanding so that we can
(03:12):
causatively define human wholeness and wellness, and we can measure it.
And so then they did a longitudinal study, all these big words, all these nice things, butessentially what they're able to do is, then they studied it globally.
Once they studied it globally.
It's going to be probably somewhere in April or May this year.
(03:35):
It'll hit all of the really major, horror academic journals in a way that is projected tobe two or three times more impactful than the human genome project and will help become a
North Star for public policy medicine.
And there's a whole core study version on flourishing in the church.
(03:59):
And so I get to take part in being kind of community engagement and networking in SanAntonio, Austin, and really nationally.
But my primary work for these next two years is to explore San Antonio to see if it hasthe capacity and the appetite to become a national laboratory for human flourishing.
(04:22):
The way we talk about it in the Bible is just to say.
What we talk about to use scriptural terms is to say a life that is abundant, a full life.
Because one of the powerful things is that we now have data and analytics that show thatscripture is true and that the invitation is real and that there's a reason that we're
(04:43):
built the way that we are and connect best the way that we do.
and provides a lexicon for faithful people and people that don't have faith, to havecommon ground.
And in, in a time when things are flying apart and on fire, it's pretty exciting to dothat.
I mean, the, there's two things is the study comes from Harvard, but is now the globalversion is at Baylor.
(05:07):
So those are the two partners.
and then the early pilot potential is between San Antonio, Texas and San Francisco,California.
So it's these really different groups of people that are coming together around a commonidea.
that's the primary work that I do.
And then my.
My home is at Sunset Ridge here at St.
Tony.
(05:28):
Wow.
Well, that sounds like it's worth a whole podcast conversation or multiple there, butthat's fascinating.
I'm looking forward to...
There's so much coming out in psychological studies right now.
I mean, I'm reading books with other people in home groups that are talking about thecorrelation between behavior and mind and...
(05:51):
and psychological health and they're just learning so many things right now.
Wow, fantastic.
Well, good.
So Scott and I have rubbed elbows at cocktail parties in the past and will be a room fullof people and Scott will be the guy that I most want to saddle up beside and ask
(06:17):
questions.
And Scott, in the past, you had begun telling me about some of your experiences in theMiddle East and even invited me to come and join you, which sadly I have not been able to
do.
But the more I've heard about your story, your passion, your gifting, and then heard aboutyou from other people, I would have to say that your job is probably the one that I would
(06:43):
most want to have if I were not doing what I'm doing right now.
I want to ask you a little bit about your experience in the Middle East.
So yeah, can you just tell me what the impact of the Middle East and these tours and yourstudies have had on you?
(07:03):
How big a part of your life has that become?
What I would say is you've only missed one because as you know right now, it's prettytough to do any kind of study.
We're prayerful and I hope you agree and I hope the listeners will join me, of course, inpraying for the peace of Israel and that whole region.
(07:24):
But the, in fact, probably not until 2026, when we'll be back in the land, my hope.
But yeah, so many years ago, there was a guy named Ray Vander Laan who was invited to comeand speak at Alamo Heights United Methodist Church.
And I had just started the contemporary worship service down the hall and was in my 20s.
And so
(07:44):
And you remember when you knew everything, like in your twenties and you're like, I knowall the things.
they would just ask me, I would tell them all the answers to these, these sweet confusedmiddle-aged people.
Right.
And apparently I've forgotten them all.
Maybe that's what happens.
I don't know.
But so at the time when Ray was coming, some of those wiser people said, Hey, why don'tyou shut down the contemporary service and you all come and join us in the, in the
(08:08):
traditional service for Ray to speak.
He's a profound teacher and.
leads people through pilgrimages in Israel.
And I said, nah, we just started.
We're not some punk, you know, contemporary service.
We're a real, we're the real thing.
So, you know, like me and my mom were there on that Sunday or whatever.
Nobody came.
(08:28):
They all were down the hall in the traditional service, of course.
But I listened to what he had, what he, what he said.
And I was really compelled.
I mean, it was really,
profound because what he was doing was something I had never seen before.
that he was coming from coming to scripture in a way that I would experience later.
(08:52):
would, I, will say all the time.
It made something that was black and white go to color and really find like a life in me,not just sort of life in my mind, but in my bones and my feet, you know, and in every
conversation, didn't
necessarily change things, but it changed everything.
(09:13):
I don't know how else to say that.
so I remember, um, we were, uh, the next day, you know, running my mouth, which, you Jhappens.
I said something like, ah, Kenny, who would get to go on trips like that?
I've never even bra bra bra bra bra.
Well,
You know how God works.
Somebody heard me say that the next morning, there was a shadowy figure in my office thatsaid, you serious about going to trips like that?
(09:38):
I said, yes.
He said, good.
You're going on a trip, in September.
Your roommate, is a guy named Mike Brown.
He's a pastor here in San Antonio.
You're going to eat lunch with him tomorrow.
It's all paid for, that is, I mean, just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, everythingjust like that.
(09:59):
And that started a journey for me of following Ray Vander Laan from one archeologicalbiblical site to another for almost 10 years and really becoming, a disciple of his very
personally.
and he is one of the greatest teachers I have ever met, read or heard.
(10:22):
And a lot of people probably have seen his videos and focus on the family and stuff likethat, but he's a real deal.
And so I got to do that.
And then he blessed me to begin leading my own and teaching on my own and ended up ourfamily.
lived through a Lilly grant.
got to live in Israel for a summer and I got to attend school there and do all thearcheology.
And so, ultimately then to lead people into these places has been.
(10:50):
You're right.
It's one of the greatest gifts you could ever experience is you walk someone in, open upthe scripture.
show them that they're standing in it and then allow that process by the spirit to do whatyou never expected.
when, then when you can come home and close your eyes, when somebody is reading somethinglike sermon on the Mount and you know, you can hear and feel and smell the Galilee.
(11:19):
it, some reason, at least for people like me, it transforms something from a reallybeautiful concept.
to something tangible and profound.
And so that's been, that's the overview journey.
And there's lots of little bits and pieces that kind of come with that of what we learnedand all that stuff.
(11:41):
So, but that's, how that got started.
Well, prior to meeting you, somebody had introduced me to Ray VanderLaan and he's probablythe teacher I've listened to more than any other.
I've got a bunch of bootleg CDs.
I pop in the car and he just, it's such a great description that you use.
(12:05):
turns the gospel from black and white into color.
really does.
And there's a lot of people, there's a debate whether the Old Testament is something weshould really pay much attention to, but when you begin looking at the whole story, it's
evident that it's all one story that's
that can only be appreciated when you see it is one story.
(12:30):
get too close to me with your Bible if you have one of those nice little pages in it thatsays New Testament, you know, like some sort of barrier, because I will find it, and
unless it has a cool map on it, or, you know, at the beginning of the gospel, I will tearit out and happily put it in my pocket.
Just so that the Bible feels more comfortable with itself, you know, because the thingthat I tell people all the time is two things.
(12:54):
One is,
All right.
So if you were going to try to understand me without knowing me, but you could just doresearch, you could research a lot of things, but what if you just looked at like my bank
account or little things and you were thinking like, gosh, why does this guy spend thisway?
Why does this guy spend his time this way?
What's going on?
And it would be very confusing until you somebody like gave you the key and said, he's afollower of Jesus.
(13:19):
Like he's a path.
Like this is what he does.
You're like, so really you, would hope.
that you couldn't fully know me unless you knew who Jesus was.
Like I would, hope that that would be true at every level.
But we think we can know Jesus without knowing his faith.
We think we can know Jesus without investing deeply in the foundations of the oldTestament and understanding it the way he approached it, the way he taught it and
(13:46):
everything that comes with that.
We, we weirdly closed the door.
on the Bible that was the only Bible for Jesus because there was no New Testament.
And so when we do that, I think it's from my perspective, it's malpractice.
I can't hand out New Testament's in mission places.
(14:10):
Then I know that's a little intense because any Bible is better than no Bible.
That's true, but it's hard.
It's hard.
So that's how, that's how it's kind of gotten into me.
as deep as it is.
When you talk about the Old Testament, I don't usually say the Old Testament because itmakes me think like it's old and forgotten.
I almost always say Older Testament because it just helps me kind of keep track of whereJesus is as his approach.
(14:35):
Do you say New Covenant and Old Covenant?
I'll say newer and older.
There's two different ways that people kind of approach that and smarter people approachit differently than I do.
So, note.
But the way that I understand it is it's God's heart unfolding in chapters, not one thatsupersedes the previous.
(14:58):
And so that becomes a very different way of doing things.
I don't think God pulls back on any of promises that he makes.
So I think those covenants unfold.
so what's new, what that, becomes a really interesting conversation about, well, what'snew about the new covenant?
Is God new in the new covenant?
Well, no.
(15:19):
Well, what's new?
it's gotta be that who's included now has gotten that that's really powerful.
That's really important.
but as I said, you can go and look and do research and find both a much more articulateversion of what I'm sharing right now.
And you can find a beautifully articulate version of, breaking up the covenants intodifferent structures and,
(15:46):
I think we should have both of those so that we can have decent conversations.
For convenience sake, when I was a young believer, I was hoping that I wouldn't have tostudy the Old Testament as well, because I was already overwhelmed with just trying to
understand Jesus and salvation, right?
But it quickly became apparent when you began looking at the little hyperlinks, you know,and all the things that came out of Jesus' mouth that he was a
(16:15):
immensely informed by the Old Testament in what he said, which has led to a whole host ofother questions like how much was Jesus shaped by his reading and his personal meditation,
you know, in the Old Testament?
think it's his spiritual DNA.
Yeah.
I think it's that deep.
Yeah.
Agreed.
(16:36):
Agreed.
So I want to launch forward here and I want you to just give, I want to give you justpermission to
go wherever the Spirit leads you, interrupt me, disagree with me, whatever.
But for the most part, I just want to sit and I want to learn and I want to listen, Scott,because I know you've got, you are one of those guys that knows so much more than I do.
(16:58):
And as a student and as a son of God, I crave understanding more my identity in Him andhow that identity has actually been.
described in places in Scripture that I am yet to discover.
I know there's treasures all through it, so the more I read Scripture, Old Testament andNew Testament, the more I begin to understand what God's purposes for me were from the
(17:28):
very beginning, from the foundations of the earth and for all those listening.
So we come as sons, and let me just pray for all of us.
Jesus, would you reveal to us
in this podcast, in this conversation exactly, precisely what you want us to haverevealed.
(17:48):
Would you unlock the treasures of the Kingdom and the treasure of your words and yourinvitation in your work?
May all that you intend for us to receive from you be received by us.
We say yes to you and we
submit our minds, we come into alignment with your Spirit and the power of your Word andwith you, Jesus, and the Father, and just say, would you change us over the course of this
(18:16):
conversation?
Let there be a point in our lives marked by this conversation where we come to have arevelation of who you are, what you have been doing, and who we are to you.
In Jesus' amen.
Amen.
So, Scott, I grew up
I'm just gonna say that I grew up Catholic, but it could be any any denomination whateverright, but I grew up and I don't know that my worldview was that different growing up in
(18:47):
the church than maybe people who didn't go to church at all or some other form ofdenomination, but there were these themes that were presented to me that I was taught and
the themes were the stories that I heard and that I think much of the world is probably
the most familiar with are the creation story, the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden, theflood, God creating Israel and calling Israel His chosen people, and then somehow for
(19:19):
whatever reason it seems that that nation became a warmongering nation that just went anddestroyed other nations.
And that is confusing.
It calls
the love of God into question.
How could a loving God do all this?
People still, you know, will deny scripture, Christianity, Jesus because of that.
(19:45):
Other major themes, Jesus came, He was a human, He was a good teacher.
The theme of humanity is just basically a sinful mess, and we all deserve hell.
There's the theme of the crucifixion and the resurrection and...
What do we do with that and how do we assimilate that into our lives if it's worthy ofassimilation?
(20:07):
Being born again, giving your life to God in service, an appreciation if you become aborn-again believer, an appreciation for His forgiveness.
And then now what we see is this worldwide tension between Christian believers andnon-believers in the world because
(20:29):
some seem to submit to a different lifestyle and others don't want to submit to thatlifestyle even though much of the world does believe in God.
Jesus is this very divisive figure in the world, separating the world really in half.
And then of course, almost everybody in the world, you listen to Heavy Metal and they talkabout the apocalypse and Armageddon and, you know, the book of Revelation, almost
(20:55):
everybody's familiar with because
It scares the hell out of us or it comforts us deeply.
So like this is what I grew up with.
I knew a little bit about these things, but I had no idea how they fit together.
And growing up, I just felt like I don't even know if they do fit together.
(21:17):
I don't even know that I came across many people or I even had the wisdom to sit down andsay, can you help?
Me string all these things together.
Thank God.
I'm much wiser.
I have been studying these things.
So they're beginning to make sense More but there was a theme that I don't think I heardone time Growing up not it not a single time.
(21:38):
I was completely unaware of this theme that now I would call sonship So I want to ask youScott sonship Is it a real theme in the Bible?
And if so, is it a major or a minor theme?
So I love the way that you collected kind of the way that we both grew up, even though Igrew up in a United Methodist Church and you grew up in a Catholic Church, that so many of
(22:02):
those themes are really consistent, I think, throughout Christendom, especially in ourchildhood and I think primarily in the church as it sits right now.
And there's so many of those, I started writing them down, those themes that were handedto us and how they've changed, how I think about them differently.
(22:23):
And how they're still life giving, but like, I'm to get the sonship because sonship is, Ican't, I'll get there in just a second.
No, I'm not going to go right to it.
Have to let's go.
Come on.
Yep.
For me personally, outside of the Holy spirit, convicting my heart that Jesus loved medeeply and welcomed me and giving me the opportunity to be resurrected as a human being.
(22:57):
And the land itself is real as a teacher.
The next most important.
completely transformational, incredibly central to the Bible.
framework for my life and my teaching and my leadership in the church and outside thechurch is sonship.
(23:20):
There's no question about it, which was why when we met the very first time and you justblurted out all this sonship stuff, I immediately was like, you and I have been reading
all of the same things.
Clearly we've just finished going through Jack Frost's sonship.
And you're like, who's Jack Frost?
It's like, what are you talking about right now?
(23:41):
And so, you and I have both, think, been immersed in the power and the beauty and therelease and, the identity, shaping, finding experience of sonship.
And if you look biblically, once you see that framework, it's like we talked about how theBible comes to life, becomes color from black and white.
(24:06):
It becomes its own color.
You can see it just over and over and over and over again.
You can't miss it.
It's all about inherit.
Everything is about inheritance and everything is about, you know, relationship andeverything is about finding our identity.
And what I loved in part of what you were talking about with the Bible and how that waskind of presented to us is that we come from a Western minded format where everything is
(24:30):
built on a narrative story that makes sense as you typically move forward.
And we think of the Bible as a book and of course it's a library of books.
And then there's all kinds of different books in that library.
it's all this crazy, like when you start to discover all those things that I know we'veboth discovered since then, you're like, wait a minute.
But the thing that one of the primary themes throughout all those differences and allthose books is this color of sonship from Adam's relationship to God, just from John.
(25:02):
It's all, it's all centered on that.
And one of the ways that it's, can do some compare and contrast.
So for instance, and, in the Christian world, there is a central relationship that we'recalled to live in.
It's over and over and over.
that the picture is that God is father or shepherd.
Like there's this caretaking, overseeing, protective image that's throughout the Bible,Catholic, United Methodist, Baptist, nonprofit, whatever.
(25:31):
It's always there.
This is the core relationship.
That's not always so in religious environments.
For instance, in Islam, it's master and slave.
Allah is the master and I am his slave is the primary relationship.
Well, just thinking about the differences and the expression and the fruit just from thatcore relationship that God is father and you are a son or a daughter versus God is the
(25:57):
master and you are a slave is a comp-
completely different relationship.
is a completely different experience and it affects you from your core completelydifferent.
And in fact, in my opinion, what God is doing over all of that time is trying to make surewe understand that that is what we're talking about.
That He is the Father and that we are His sons.
(26:19):
And that changes our identity, the way that we function in the world, what we can expectfrom inheritance, everything.
And so, yeah.
You can, you can cruise through from Adam and Eve to Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jethro.
Gives him that picture, Jacob.
You can go to all of the pictures of Joseph coming out with his brothers and his dad.
(26:45):
how he rises in Egypt.
You can cruise through to every one of the prophets is basically saying, you guys aren'tacting like sons.
You're acting, you know, like adolescent children.
You are broken.
The, the, I was, somebody taught me one time that adolescence is knowing what the rightthing to do.
(27:05):
You just don't do it.
You know, so an adolescent person in life, you know, I've got a couple at the house andthey'll know what's right to do.
They just don't want to do it until everything they can to kind of avoid it or complaintheirself away.
I often tell Cathy when both of us are getting mad at them.
like, when they make those faces, those are the faces that we've learned not to make, butwe still have all the same feelings.
(27:28):
Take out the trash.
Okay, honey.
But what we really want to do is have a very adolescent response.
Well, adolescence is that kind of period of, knowing what's right to do and just not doingit.
Well, in the development of Israel, you can see it.
You can see their adolescence.
You can see the prophets coming in and being like, Hey, what are you doing?
They're like parents voices saying, quit behaving this way.
(27:48):
You're destroying yourselves and the world and you're mishandling the promise.
And you have this incredible inheritance.
What are you doing?
So again, if it comes from you're a son, you're a daughter, you're the family, it beginsto help you change the versions of everything that you're reading.
And so Sonship really just enlightened me in reading the Bible.
(28:09):
And then in doing that, changed the way I function in the world in kind of crazy ways,really crazy ways.
mean, when, when you initially stumbled across this, how did, we've never talked about,how did you come to an understanding of Sonship from the beginning?
i don't sound super spiritual
(28:35):
It was so organic.
That's cool.
I still never read a book by Jack Frost.
I still don't, I kind of don't like reading articles about Sonship from other people.
For me, salvation and the revelation of Sonship, or I would say the invitation of Sonship.
(28:57):
So first I experienced salvation, then I went for a long period of time thinking that justsalvation,
getting through the door of heaven, making the good confession, becoming a Christian, thatthat was going to be the solution to my problems.
Well, a decade goes by, I've been at many different churches, even, you know, I was even apastor, a paid teacher of scripture, but sonship was nowhere on my radar at all.
(29:26):
And I was so unhappy that I ended up leaving ministry.
Because God said this is not the right place for you.
I have things to do in you I did not know what he was going to do and then two three yearsafter leaving ministry and being Working, you know in in the secular world a friend
(29:48):
invited me up to a retreat in Colorado Well, I went back.
I had a great experience began to get my heart back but that's when I became that's when Iwas invited to become a
a curious student of my heart.
That's interesting.
Why am I so angry?
Why do I, why do I stay away from people who've got, this character characteristic, thisquality, you know, people who, have a lot of money or a lot of wisdom or a lot of business
(30:21):
acumen.
Why do they intimidate me?
And I didn't know there were relevant questions until I went to another retreat and I
was hurt.
I was just snubbed.
What I felt like was snubbed by somebody.
I felt offended by it.
And so I went to my journal and I started writing and over the course of four days I justgot more and more pissed at God.
(30:47):
know, it was a supernatural uprising out of the ground to see things that I had never seenbefore.
And all of that
was his gift to me to surface and help me articulate what I was so mad about, or at leastwhat I thought I was so mad about, so that I could be angry with God.
(31:13):
I had been suppressing that.
In my fear of God, I had not been honest with him or myself about how I really felt abouthim.
And at the end of that retreat, I was sitting in the grass and
I finally said, I'm just done.
I'm angry.
This salvation thing doesn't work.
(31:34):
I'm not any happier.
And you've ignored me all weekend.
I just, I left because I really resonated with what you're saying right now.
I've been in that exact spot where you're just like totally having like a temper tantrumand at the time you feel so stinking righteous and you look back on it and you're like, my
(31:56):
gosh, that's embarrassing.
It is, it is.
He must have been laughing the whole yeah, sweet laughing.
Yeah, like, look at him.
He look down.
We're almost there.
I even went so far in my journal to begin recording all of the offenses, you know, likeall of the thing.
he just like, and I'd begin walking somewhere and be like, damn it, there's another one,you know, so I'd write it down.
(32:22):
So page after page of ways that he had not.
protected me that he had not provided for me, ways that other men had snubbed me,overlooked me.
You know, like all these ways that I felt like a boy who wasn't noticed by his dad.
Oh yeah, wow.
And I was simply a grown man who was probably not even acting with the wisdom and maturityof an adolescent.
(32:51):
I was still a little boy, a little bitty boy inside.
came to the end of that retreat, said, God, what do you have to say about all this stuffthat I've written down here and I didn't hear anything?
And then I threw my journal in the grass.
many of you friends who've been listening to me, you've heard me tell the story, but itmoves me every time I say it.
(33:14):
I threw my journal in the grass and I said, screw it.
I meant screw all of this.
I'm never coming back to a retreat again.
I'm not writing in my journal again.
I would probably be better off if I just did it on my own as opposed to hoping that you'regoing to meet me and be disappointed again, which was my expectation.
And once I let go of all that and I completely gave up, I heard a voice so loud and sotender in my heart and in my mind.
(33:43):
And it said, you were never the beloved son.
And in that moment,
I knew he was diagnosing that every problem, all my anger, everything came from thatproblem that I could never have diagnosed.
And in that moment, in the kindness of his voice, I knew that he was asking me, would youlike to be my beloved son?
(34:14):
And I said to him,
I mean, I'm weeping at this point because he cracked me open like that.
And I'm weeping and I'm feeling rescued by it.
And I said to him, what does that mean?
(34:36):
to be your beloved son, and there was no answer.
But that was the question that he planted in my heart so that I could begin thinking ofeverything.
In that moment, as I read scripture, I knew that somehow there was going to be a color onthat theme, and I began just begging him, help me see it.
(34:57):
Help me see Jesus in light of it.
He clearly was inviting me into a...
into an understanding that I don't currently have.
So, okay, open up all of scripture to me.
So I began praying the same prayers that I had always been praying, but now I was invitedto be his beloved son.
(35:19):
So God just supernaturally began making things come alive to me.
I didn't know, I I'd never heard it from anybody.
And yeah, so that was a question.
What does it mean to be a beloved son?
So I just began to anticipate that from Genesis to Revelation, somehow there was going tobe something for me to discover in that.
(35:45):
so it was really humorous when, you know, people started telling me, you've obviously readthis book.
I'm like, no, I never even heard of this dude.
Well, the powerful part for me on the other side is to realize, like, I know for sure.
And Jack Frost is dead, by the way.
And if you're entertained by the name Jack Frost, I am too.
But, you know, it's, but what's fun about it is that he would have been so excited to talkto you because of his story and his story is worth seeking out too.
(36:16):
Shiloh placed ministries is where you can find that out.
But, and on, think on YouTube too, and he's got a really wild voice, by the way, he's acharismatic, so get ready if you go looking for him, just heads up.
But what was really affirming to me was to see
how you had articulated in organic discovery led by the spirit, what he had alsoorganically discovered and was led by the spirit, but they are so close that it's, you
(36:48):
know, borderline, not miraculous and beautiful and also obvious.
Does that make sense?
course, cause like, maybe like, like you now it's a, it's like this framework.
for understanding.
remember right after I started learning about or having this kind of unfold in me or thisthing kind of invade or become me or already was and I was whatever it was the mystery of
(37:16):
how it kind of becomes how you breathe a little bit is I remember we were going to do thisthe
the church that I was working for, they wanted to do a theme and they wanted to do aseries and the series is going to be thinking about growing up Catholic.
They were going to do the the old, I'm not the Old Testament, the Lord's Prayer.
They want to do a series on the Lord's Prayer.
(37:36):
like, oh, that's a good idea.
It's like, okay, well, how much do you want?
I'll go look at it I'll come back and tell you like how much per week we'll do.
And so I came back and I'm like, okay, well, how are we going to break it up?
I said, well, the first thing we have to do is the first word, hour.
That's the first sermon.
Why would he start there?
I just, it's amazing to think about that.
(37:58):
That's how he taught us to pray his hour.
This is us.
We're family, like right here.
And they're like, okay, what's the next one?
I'm like, well, the next one is a three week series and it's called father.
They're like, this is going to be a year and a half trying to get through the, uh, youknow, the Lord's prayer.
I'm like, well, it could be, and I'm sorry, but I'm seeing this so differently.
(38:19):
That this prayer that I grew up saying and just wrote all the time, you know, just overand over and over is now this bombshell that when I read it, ended up weeping through it.
Just one phrase and sentence at a time thinking that every word could be different.
You know, my, you know, like master, like you can, you can rewrite the Lord's prayer withcompletely different words and relationships and discover other religions and other ways
(38:47):
and understanding philosophically the world.
But that's not the way it comes.
It comes out in this extraordinarily beautiful way.
That's transformative and giving and you have everything that you need and don't be lockedup and you other people, your, your hatred of other people and all this other kind of
stuff.
so exactly like you, it's sort of now everything is colored by this picture.
(39:13):
so much so that, you know, that's the kind of thing that your friends stop asking youabout.
Did they ever do that to you where they're like,
Don't ask him about the whole sonship thing.
He'll go on for like 20 minutes.
That's more my wife reaching over and putting her hand on my forearm.
Yeah.
Critical.
Hey, hey, hey.
Yeah.
(39:33):
Yeah.
And she'll do it long before I've, ramped up.
My welcome is over.
She'll do it at the very beginning.
Like before you even launch off, you better summarize this really quickly.
So great.
Yeah.
She knows me.
She knows me.
So let me ask you this.
For me, salvation and the revelation of sonship were not one and the same event for me.
(39:59):
What about you?
Totally different.
Can you share a little bit about that?
Yeah, I have one of those pieces where my salvation comes in sort of chapters of a book.
wasn't sort of a big crisis time in my life, that kind of thing.
I have had those and been saved from those and all that kind of stuff.
(40:21):
But if I look back across my life, my salvation moment is actually quite early.
Like, but I knew Jesus who he was and our relationship started and I gave him my life.
I mean, I've tried to take it back several times, you know, we have a nice littlewrestling on the things that, I think I can handle kind of idea, which are terrible.
But what happened was it's really the wrestling match that began at salvation.
(40:47):
for me, because of that kind of not knowing my identity or not believing that God wouldprovide or that there was an inheritance for me or that I didn't have to prove anything in
any room.
All of the things that you learn from sonship, you know, my father is the creator ofuniverse.
(41:09):
don't really need to over worry about a lot of stuff.
I need to show up as my full self and.
be prepared to learn things I don't know, but I'm not sure that I need to prove anythingto anybody, but I didn't know any of that.
So my salvation was really a wrestling match and an argument for a long time.
Um, I would, I would get it.
(41:30):
would be immersed in it.
And then I would sort of be frustrated and limited.
Whatever, you know, kind of the same thing you were feeling at that retreat.
felt some pieces and parts across my life.
And then when sonship showed up.
It was like, why didn't they, why didn't they give me this when I got the other thing?
(41:50):
Like, I wish I could have started here and which has been a part of my walk ever since isthat it's so important for me to talk about someone's identity around their salvation.
You know, if it doesn't come at the same time and I'm around, it's coming pretty soon.
because it was the thing that helped me walk out what it meant to be a son of God.
(42:14):
You know, I don't know that I had any concept of that.
And so that's it came.
So that, that thing came across the course of a lifetime and sonship didn't show up until,Jay, was ordained just like you.
was teaching just like you.
had been to Israel and seen all the stuff and been teaching it coming back.
(42:40):
And then a friend of mine, Mel Swartz.
who this is his microphone, uh, handed me Jack Frost stuff and I put his back in the CDsstage.
I tossed him in the back of my truck and didn't listen to him.
And then Jack died and, Mel said, Hey, you know, those CDs, do you mind giving them backto me?
(43:01):
I want to listen to him again.
He passed away and I just want to do that.
And I'm like, I don't think.
climbed on me, should do it.
So I said, all right, look, let me listen to, I'll take one and I'll rotate them forweeks.
And we started talking about them and over the next six months.
I just became a very different person.
(43:24):
So as you were listening, can you describe what God was doing in your heart?
I'll try.
so when I began to listen, he right away began to talk about identity, which I don'tremember anybody in my spiritual life ever talking about my identity, my position in
(43:54):
relationship to God we talked about.
And I wouldn't have said it at the time, but I look back and I'm like,
What is my position in relationship with God?
Am I accepted?
Am I not accepted?
And so I'm not accepted because of sin.
And then I become accepted through Christ and now I'm accepted.
Okay.
So my position was a part of that, but my relationship was never developed, no maturity.
(44:17):
And he starts talking about identity, like who you are.
And I'm like, well, wait a minute, we've never had this conversation.
How is it that God does?
And then he starts unfolding this kind of.
This is who you are.
You are his son.
What does it mean to be a son?
Well, I have, I have the privilege of having a very warm, loving, encouraging father inreal life.
(44:43):
I'm, I tell people all the time that if generally, if parent, people had my parents, theworld would be much better.
They are extraordinary human beings.
And my father in particular was working from not so many tools.
and did a lot of work to become something else.
(45:03):
In fact, my dad will say it takes three generations to make a decent human being to whichI'll always say, well, dad, where are we?
And he'll wink at me and say, Jerry's out, Jerry's out.
Sweet little thing we do.
And I'm pretty sure he's convinced that it's his grandchildren that I'm decent.
(45:23):
That's okay.
So.
I went into this thing of, what does it mean for to have a father that loves you, thatprovides for you, that your identity isn't one that you have to scrap and claim and fight
other people for, that resources are unlimited, that your world is set before you to bewho you were created to be and not who the world expects you to be?
(45:48):
Just these things that started to affect me in a way that I didn't realize.
my motivations.
I didn't realize how I was functioning in the world.
And worse than that, or maybe more than that, I didn't realize that there was an option.
I didn't realize that there was another way to just function in the world and, and evenmaybe less functioning in the world and functioning inside myself to be at peace.
(46:17):
I, for instance, an example is,
feeling like I have to say something all the time.
If I know something about a topic, I'm in a room and I'm like, well, as soon as I get alittle break here, I'm gonna gonna unwrap this powerful little nugget that everybody's
gonna say, we love having Scott in the room.
He's amazing.
So I did this for like ever, you know, and then when you're in Sonship, you're just like,I'm not really sure that even though that might be a helpful thought that it's the right
(46:48):
helpful thought.
And I know that the spirit will somehow nudge someone else or the conversation in thedirection that will allow that to make sense because I can be at rest and at peace and who
I am, and I don't have to prove anything to anybody.
And that was a very different approach for me.
(47:09):
And I I'm looking back on it has become so integrated in my life.
It's funny that
Probably the first two years after learning this, could have, I had very crisp answersbecause they came from Jack and now they're so integrated.
I'm trying to, it's like, I'm trying to lift something out of my DNA.
(47:29):
So it's strange, but I think maybe the, easiest phrase for me that may help for mydisposition in the world was I went from walking into a room.
and kind of changing according to what was in the room or who was in the room.
Like I would kind of change.
(47:53):
And now I walk into the room and I know that the room will change because of who I am inGod.
It's not an arrogant thing.
It's just, I don't have to change.
I don't have to be anything for anybody.
I can be exactly who I'm created to be.
(48:13):
And if God has me here in this place, maybe I'm just encouraging and quiet, or maybe Ineed to lead, but that will reveal itself.
And I don't need to generate.
Lame, you know, ask for credit.
You were talking about the snubbing thing.
(48:35):
I'd like to say I never had that problem.
What I'll say is I never physically made a list.
That is, you win on that.
That is really epic.
But that doesn't, didn't have a list or didn't have like that whole thing.
Like, you know, people would come into a room and, know, you're like, you're sitting therethinking, yeah, they're going to ask me, I'm going to solve this.
(48:59):
And they don't even pay any attention to you.
They walk right by you.
They talk to somebody else, you know, whatever it is.
you're, you're not included in the committee.
You're not included in the group.
You're not included in that kind of stuff.
And you start really getting to be toxic.
And so that went away too.
I was like,
Why am I worried about dragging new drama in or being some sort of adolescent that, shedoesn't even, like this kind of interior whininess.
(49:27):
my gosh.
It's just hideous.
So it was the discovery of motivation, a new, a new way of approaching identity and thatidentity, interior core identity, like your spiritual DNA.
is what God has built and wants you to discover, not something that you have to build andprove.
(49:51):
It's more archaeology than it is architecture.
Yes, it's something that we have to discover, which I have the same, I had the sameresponse that, that you articulated a minute ago.
You just got pissed that why didn't you just start from the beginning with this?
(50:15):
You know, I talked about all those themes.
I'm, sitting here and thinking about our conversation.
I'm thinking about all the things that I was taught and maybe I'm minimizing the value oflearning.
you know, that Jesus is coming back and he's going to be really angry when he comes backand creation, the flood, you know, those stories.
(50:38):
But sonship, the family, the heart of God, like the tenderness, I didn't explore that anyfurther than John 3.16.
You know?
And it's a beautiful passage, but you don't even really begin to understand it.
Maybe it's the door to get into some better questions, but John 3.16...
(51:05):
That's a great phrase.
It's a door to get to better questions.
Just to put a fine point on that, I think, and you do this beautifully, is I really thinkthat most of our faith, when we approach it initially, we're looking for answers.
But really all we're going to be taught is how to ask the right questions.
Yeah.
Cause it's a relationship built on conversation and that conversation is ongoing.
(51:30):
So every time you think, I just, if somebody would just tell me the five things I need todo to be okay.
You're like, well, that's not going to work for you.
The thing that's going to work for you is beginning to ask, why do I need to know this?
Why am I in this space?
Do I remember who I am in this?
know, like it changes completely when you get.
this framework of sonship.
(51:51):
I just couldn't agree more.
And the idea that it is a doorway into better questions is a fantastic way to think aboutat least one element of that scripture.
Well, want to, I want to ask you to take us on a tour of sonship in scripture as you'velearned it.
(52:17):
Just to kind of end what you and I have been talking about the last couple of minuteshere, it is, in my experience, always two different experiences.
And in the men that I know, our, you know, our brothers that I walk with have campfireswith go on adventures that there are two different experiences is there's salvation.
(52:40):
And then there is a question maybe that leads
into a revelation of sonship which ends up changing and coloring everything.
And this is a scripture.
And guys, if you have been with me on any Father-Son, Father-Daughter retreats, or you'vebeen with me anywhere or listen to this podcast, you will hear me reference this
(53:04):
scripture.
But I believe this probably helped me understand sonship as much if not more than anyother passage of scripture.
And until I had eyes to
to see it, I couldn't appreciate it, but it's Matthew 11, 25 through 29.
The Father revealed in the Son.
(53:25):
And this is what Jesus said, kind of out of the blue, out of nowhere.
Jesus says, at that time, Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,because you've hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little
children.
Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Now I can see, if I'm reading like the New King James,
(53:46):
I can see that that is a hyperlink to Genesis chapter 1.
He's saying, the very beginning there were two trees, there's only two ways to do life.
That's what he's invoking with the wise and the learned, and the comparison to the littlechildren, which we are meant to live as little children.
The wise and the learned, those people who figure it out on their own, they don't get it.
(54:08):
Those people who begin to approach God as little children, fully in need, full ofquestions,
those are the ones that the Father reveals the secrets to.
And Jesus goes on, all things have been committed to me by my Father.
No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son andthose to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(54:28):
So, what I look back on my story, and as you're articulating it in the stories of otherpeople, is that the Father first reveals the Son as the Savior.
We come to Him as the Savior, and then Jesus begins to reveal
the Father to us.
And so I've just begin praying as a practice, Jesus, I was doing it this morning withHeather, Jesus, would you reveal the Father to me in every way through scripture, through
(54:58):
just looking and considering in my sanctified imagination what it was like to walk withyou?
Reveal the Father to me through your prayers, you know, the Our Father, the model prayer.
And then Jesus
gives us some insight into exactly what he's inviting us into by moving from being thewise and learned into becoming little children, by praying and asking that Jesus would
(55:25):
reveal the Father to us.
This is the end result.
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you.
Learn from me, for I'm gentle and humble in heart.
You'll find rest for your souls.
My yoke is easy, my burden is light.
and your description of how you walk into a room and all of a sudden the burden for youmaintaining appearances and self-promotion, like I so resonate with that and with the men
(55:50):
I am around campfires with, the more we embrace sonship, the more we can be curious, thelighter the load, the lighter, the less the need for us to take care of ourselves and
provide everything for ourselves.
So I just...
want to invite all of us in this moment to just pray together to Jesus.
(56:11):
Jesus, thank you for this that you said.
Thank you that you listened to the Father and you prayed exactly what the Father told youto pray, and you're giving us a secret here.
We want to be babes.
Jesus, would you teach us how to be babes instead of the wise and learned who don't askfor help?
(56:32):
The smarty pants.
And we ask you, Jesus,
Would you reveal the Father to us?
You and you alone can reveal the Father.
And so we're asking to give us a revelation of the Father, of His character, of His loveand His feelings for us.
Would you allow our sonship to be something that we grow in understanding?
(56:55):
And as our older brother in all of this, would you teach us how to approach and to livewith the Father as we were created and designed to do?
Thanks Jesus.
Amen.
(57:34):
Sons, friends, so glad you were here for part 1 of this 2 part podcast with Scott Heare.
In the next episode we're going to be bringing this conversation to a conclusion .
We're going to be focusing on the thread ...the all-important thread of sonship that Godhas woven all through the human story, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and we're
going to be unpacking what adoption truly means using the whole narrative of the Bibletruly means using the whole narrative of the Bible.
So you're not going to want to miss that.
So glad you were here for this part one of this conversation with Scott Heare and we willtalk to you at the next episode.
One of the primary themes throughout all those differences in all those books is thiscolor of sonship from Adam's relationship to God, just from jump.
It's all, it's all centered on that.
He is the father and that we are his sons.
And that changes our identity, the way that we function in the world, what we can expectfrom inheritance, everything.
(00:37):
Friends sons.
Hey, welcome back to the being sons podcast.
I'm really excited to have a friend of mine, Scott Heare with us on the podcast.
Scott, welcome.
Thanks.
Glad to be here.
Pretty excited.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you for, for coming.
Scott has had a big impact on me over the years, for a lot of reasons.
(00:58):
He is, intimately involved in the organization that I come under as a 501c3 And he's beenthe chief,
vision officer, is that correct?
Yeah, chief.
It's not as made up as it sounds, but it's too close.
Okay, great.
Well, I'll ask you a little bit about that in a minute, but just to sum up a bit of whoScott is, he's many things.
(01:24):
He's a husband, he's a father, he is a very gifted teacher, he's been a pastor and a tourguide for believers in the Middle East.
very gifted at helping the Bible come alive by teaching about it in the very spots thatthese events happened.
So Scott, I'm here to learn.
I've actually been holding this conversation off for years.
(01:46):
We've had lunch, we've talked, and I have purposely, like, not wanted to go deep into thisparticular conversation about adoption and sonship, knowing that it's something that you
are passionate and gifted at teaching, because I wanted
to have it on this podcast for the benefit of all these people like me and like you whoare searching out and wanting a revelation of sonship so that we can begin living in it
(02:14):
more fully.
But I want to ask you a little bit more about yourself.
where are you, what are you doing right now in your life?
Well, as usual, God has me sort of on an adventure.
So the latest adventure, which is wild, is twofold.
probably at least twofold.
And kind of the at home thing, the thing that roots me and connects me and kind of keepsme founded is that Sunset Ridge Church is allowing me to be their pastor and preacher.
(02:45):
And so there's a community of people that I'm immersed in that I love and that's only thelast few months, but I'm just grateful for them.
So I got to start there and then just being a part of that community.
But my primary job is with the global human flourishing.
initiative, which is originally started about 2016 with the, a professor named TylerVanderWeele and a significant breakthrough in human understanding so that we can
(03:12):
causatively define human wholeness and wellness, and we can measure it.
And so then they did a longitudinal study, all these big words, all these nice things, butessentially what they're able to do is, then they studied it globally.
Once they studied it globally.
It's going to be probably somewhere in April or May this year.
(03:35):
It'll hit all of the really major, horror academic journals in a way that is projected tobe two or three times more impactful than the human genome project and will help become a
North Star for public policy medicine.
And there's a whole core study version on flourishing in the church.
(03:59):
And so I get to take part in being kind of community engagement and networking in SanAntonio, Austin, and really nationally.
But my primary work for these next two years is to explore San Antonio to see if it hasthe capacity and the appetite to become a national laboratory for human flourishing.
(04:22):
The way we talk about it in the Bible is just to say.
What we talk about to use scriptural terms is to say a life that is abundant, a full life.
Because one of the powerful things is that we now have data and analytics that show thatscripture is true and that the invitation is real and that there's a reason that we're
(04:43):
built the way that we are and connect best the way that we do.
and provides a lexicon for faithful people and people that don't have faith, to havecommon ground.
And in, in a time when things are flying apart and on fire, it's pretty exciting to dothat.
I mean, the, there's two things is the study comes from Harvard, but is now the globalversion is at Baylor.
(05:07):
So those are the two partners.
and then the early pilot potential is between San Antonio, Texas and San Francisco,California.
So it's these really different groups of people that are coming together around a commonidea.
that's the primary work that I do.
And then my.
My home is at Sunset Ridge here at St.
Tony.
(05:28):
Wow.
Well, that sounds like it's worth a whole podcast conversation or multiple there, butthat's fascinating.
I'm looking forward to...
There's so much coming out in psychological studies right now.
I mean, I'm reading books with other people in home groups that are talking about thecorrelation between behavior and mind and...
(05:51):
and psychological health and they're just learning so many things right now.
Wow, fantastic.
Well, good.
So Scott and I have rubbed elbows at cocktail parties in the past and will be a room fullof people and Scott will be the guy that I most want to saddle up beside and ask
(06:17):
questions.
And Scott, in the past, you had begun telling me about some of your experiences in theMiddle East and even invited me to come and join you, which sadly I have not been able to
do.
But the more I've heard about your story, your passion, your gifting, and then heard aboutyou from other people, I would have to say that your job is probably the one that I would
(06:43):
most want to have if I were not doing what I'm doing right now.
I want to ask you a little bit about your experience in the Middle East.
So yeah, can you just tell me what the impact of the Middle East and these tours and yourstudies have had on you?
(07:03):
How big a part of your life has that become?
What I would say is you've only missed one because as you know right now, it's prettytough to do any kind of study.
We're prayerful and I hope you agree and I hope the listeners will join me, of course, inpraying for the peace of Israel and that whole region.
(07:24):
But the, in fact, probably not until 2026, when we'll be back in the land, my hope.
But yeah, so many years ago, there was a guy named Ray Vander Laan who was invited to comeand speak at Alamo Heights United Methodist Church.
And I had just started the contemporary worship service down the hall and was in my 20s.
And so
(07:44):
And you remember when you knew everything, like in your twenties and you're like, I knowall the things.
they would just ask me, I would tell them all the answers to these, these sweet confusedmiddle-aged people.
Right.
And apparently I've forgotten them all.
Maybe that's what happens.
I don't know.
But so at the time when Ray was coming, some of those wiser people said, Hey, why don'tyou shut down the contemporary service and you all come and join us in the, in the
(08:08):
traditional service for Ray to speak.
He's a profound teacher and.
leads people through pilgrimages in Israel.
And I said, nah, we just started.
We're not some punk, you know, contemporary service.
We're a real, we're the real thing.
So, you know, like me and my mom were there on that Sunday or whatever.
Nobody came.
(08:28):
They all were down the hall in the traditional service, of course.
But I listened to what he had, what he, what he said.
And I was really compelled.
I mean, it was really,
profound because what he was doing was something I had never seen before.
that he was coming from coming to scripture in a way that I would experience later.
(08:52):
would, I, will say all the time.
It made something that was black and white go to color and really find like a life in me,not just sort of life in my mind, but in my bones and my feet, you know, and in every
conversation, didn't
necessarily change things, but it changed everything.
(09:13):
I don't know how else to say that.
so I remember, um, we were, uh, the next day, you know, running my mouth, which, you Jhappens.
I said something like, ah, Kenny, who would get to go on trips like that?
I've never even bra bra bra bra bra.
Well,
You know how God works.
Somebody heard me say that the next morning, there was a shadowy figure in my office thatsaid, you serious about going to trips like that?
(09:38):
I said, yes.
He said, good.
You're going on a trip, in September.
Your roommate, is a guy named Mike Brown.
He's a pastor here in San Antonio.
You're going to eat lunch with him tomorrow.
It's all paid for, that is, I mean, just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, everythingjust like that.
(09:59):
And that started a journey for me of following Ray Vander Laan from one archeologicalbiblical site to another for almost 10 years and really becoming, a disciple of his very
personally.
and he is one of the greatest teachers I have ever met, read or heard.
(10:22):
And a lot of people probably have seen his videos and focus on the family and stuff likethat, but he's a real deal.
And so I got to do that.
And then he blessed me to begin leading my own and teaching on my own and ended up ourfamily.
lived through a Lilly grant.
got to live in Israel for a summer and I got to attend school there and do all thearcheology.
And so, ultimately then to lead people into these places has been.
(10:50):
You're right.
It's one of the greatest gifts you could ever experience is you walk someone in, open upthe scripture.
show them that they're standing in it and then allow that process by the spirit to do whatyou never expected.
when, then when you can come home and close your eyes, when somebody is reading somethinglike sermon on the Mount and you know, you can hear and feel and smell the Galilee.
(11:19):
it, some reason, at least for people like me, it transforms something from a reallybeautiful concept.
to something tangible and profound.
And so that's been, that's the overview journey.
And there's lots of little bits and pieces that kind of come with that of what we learnedand all that stuff.
(11:41):
So, but that's, how that got started.
Well, prior to meeting you, somebody had introduced me to Ray VanderLaan and he's probablythe teacher I've listened to more than any other.
I've got a bunch of bootleg CDs.
I pop in the car and he just, it's such a great description that you use.
(12:05):
turns the gospel from black and white into color.
really does.
And there's a lot of people, there's a debate whether the Old Testament is something weshould really pay much attention to, but when you begin looking at the whole story, it's
evident that it's all one story that's
that can only be appreciated when you see it is one story.
(12:30):
get too close to me with your Bible if you have one of those nice little pages in it thatsays New Testament, you know, like some sort of barrier, because I will find it, and
unless it has a cool map on it, or, you know, at the beginning of the gospel, I will tearit out and happily put it in my pocket.
Just so that the Bible feels more comfortable with itself, you know, because the thingthat I tell people all the time is two things.
(12:54):
One is,
All right.
So if you were going to try to understand me without knowing me, but you could just doresearch, you could research a lot of things, but what if you just looked at like my bank
account or little things and you were thinking like, gosh, why does this guy spend thisway?
Why does this guy spend his time this way?
What's going on?
And it would be very confusing until you somebody like gave you the key and said, he's afollower of Jesus.
(13:19):
Like he's a path.
Like this is what he does.
You're like, so really you, would hope.
that you couldn't fully know me unless you knew who Jesus was.
Like I would, hope that that would be true at every level.
But we think we can know Jesus without knowing his faith.
We think we can know Jesus without investing deeply in the foundations of the oldTestament and understanding it the way he approached it, the way he taught it and
(13:46):
everything that comes with that.
We, we weirdly closed the door.
on the Bible that was the only Bible for Jesus because there was no New Testament.
And so when we do that, I think it's from my perspective, it's malpractice.
I can't hand out New Testament's in mission places.
(14:10):
Then I know that's a little intense because any Bible is better than no Bible.
That's true, but it's hard.
It's hard.
So that's how, that's how it's kind of gotten into me.
as deep as it is.
When you talk about the Old Testament, I don't usually say the Old Testament because itmakes me think like it's old and forgotten.
I almost always say Older Testament because it just helps me kind of keep track of whereJesus is as his approach.
(14:35):
Do you say New Covenant and Old Covenant?
I'll say newer and older.
There's two different ways that people kind of approach that and smarter people approachit differently than I do.
So, note.
But the way that I understand it is it's God's heart unfolding in chapters, not one thatsupersedes the previous.
(14:58):
And so that becomes a very different way of doing things.
I don't think God pulls back on any of promises that he makes.
So I think those covenants unfold.
so what's new, what that, becomes a really interesting conversation about, well, what'snew about the new covenant?
Is God new in the new covenant?
Well, no.
(15:19):
Well, what's new?
it's gotta be that who's included now has gotten that that's really powerful.
That's really important.
but as I said, you can go and look and do research and find both a much more articulateversion of what I'm sharing right now.
And you can find a beautifully articulate version of, breaking up the covenants intodifferent structures and,
(15:46):
I think we should have both of those so that we can have decent conversations.
For convenience sake, when I was a young believer, I was hoping that I wouldn't have tostudy the Old Testament as well, because I was already overwhelmed with just trying to
understand Jesus and salvation, right?
But it quickly became apparent when you began looking at the little hyperlinks, you know,and all the things that came out of Jesus' mouth that he was a
(16:15):
immensely informed by the Old Testament in what he said, which has led to a whole host ofother questions like how much was Jesus shaped by his reading and his personal meditation,
you know, in the Old Testament?
think it's his spiritual DNA.
Yeah.
I think it's that deep.
Yeah.
Agreed.
(16:36):
Agreed.
So I want to launch forward here and I want you to just give, I want to give you justpermission to
go wherever the Spirit leads you, interrupt me, disagree with me, whatever.
But for the most part, I just want to sit and I want to learn and I want to listen, Scott,because I know you've got, you are one of those guys that knows so much more than I do.
(16:58):
And as a student and as a son of God, I crave understanding more my identity in Him andhow that identity has actually been.
described in places in Scripture that I am yet to discover.
I know there's treasures all through it, so the more I read Scripture, Old Testament andNew Testament, the more I begin to understand what God's purposes for me were from the
(17:28):
very beginning, from the foundations of the earth and for all those listening.
So we come as sons, and let me just pray for all of us.
Jesus, would you reveal to us
in this podcast, in this conversation exactly, precisely what you want us to haverevealed.
(17:48):
Would you unlock the treasures of the Kingdom and the treasure of your words and yourinvitation in your work?
May all that you intend for us to receive from you be received by us.
We say yes to you and we
submit our minds, we come into alignment with your Spirit and the power of your Word andwith you, Jesus, and the Father, and just say, would you change us over the course of this
(18:16):
conversation?
Let there be a point in our lives marked by this conversation where we come to have arevelation of who you are, what you have been doing, and who we are to you.
In Jesus' amen.
Amen.
So, Scott, I grew up
I'm just gonna say that I grew up Catholic, but it could be any any denomination whateverright, but I grew up and I don't know that my worldview was that different growing up in
(18:47):
the church than maybe people who didn't go to church at all or some other form ofdenomination, but there were these themes that were presented to me that I was taught and
the themes were the stories that I heard and that I think much of the world is probably
the most familiar with are the creation story, the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden, theflood, God creating Israel and calling Israel His chosen people, and then somehow for
(19:19):
whatever reason it seems that that nation became a warmongering nation that just went anddestroyed other nations.
And that is confusing.
It calls
the love of God into question.
How could a loving God do all this?
People still, you know, will deny scripture, Christianity, Jesus because of that.
(19:45):
Other major themes, Jesus came, He was a human, He was a good teacher.
The theme of humanity is just basically a sinful mess, and we all deserve hell.
There's the theme of the crucifixion and the resurrection and...
What do we do with that and how do we assimilate that into our lives if it's worthy ofassimilation?
(20:07):
Being born again, giving your life to God in service, an appreciation if you become aborn-again believer, an appreciation for His forgiveness.
And then now what we see is this worldwide tension between Christian believers andnon-believers in the world because
(20:29):
some seem to submit to a different lifestyle and others don't want to submit to thatlifestyle even though much of the world does believe in God.
Jesus is this very divisive figure in the world, separating the world really in half.
And then of course, almost everybody in the world, you listen to Heavy Metal and they talkabout the apocalypse and Armageddon and, you know, the book of Revelation, almost
(20:55):
everybody's familiar with because
It scares the hell out of us or it comforts us deeply.
So like this is what I grew up with.
I knew a little bit about these things, but I had no idea how they fit together.
And growing up, I just felt like I don't even know if they do fit together.
(21:17):
I don't even know that I came across many people or I even had the wisdom to sit down andsay, can you help?
Me string all these things together.
Thank God.
I'm much wiser.
I have been studying these things.
So they're beginning to make sense More but there was a theme that I don't think I heardone time Growing up not it not a single time.
(21:38):
I was completely unaware of this theme that now I would call sonship So I want to ask youScott sonship Is it a real theme in the Bible?
And if so, is it a major or a minor theme?
So I love the way that you collected kind of the way that we both grew up, even though Igrew up in a United Methodist Church and you grew up in a Catholic Church, that so many of
(22:02):
those themes are really consistent, I think, throughout Christendom, especially in ourchildhood and I think primarily in the church as it sits right now.
And there's so many of those, I started writing them down, those themes that were handedto us and how they've changed, how I think about them differently.
(22:23):
And how they're still life giving, but like, I'm to get the sonship because sonship is, Ican't, I'll get there in just a second.
No, I'm not going to go right to it.
Have to let's go.
Come on.
Yep.
For me personally, outside of the Holy spirit, convicting my heart that Jesus loved medeeply and welcomed me and giving me the opportunity to be resurrected as a human being.
(22:57):
And the land itself is real as a teacher.
The next most important.
completely transformational, incredibly central to the Bible.
framework for my life and my teaching and my leadership in the church and outside thechurch is sonship.
(23:20):
There's no question about it, which was why when we met the very first time and you justblurted out all this sonship stuff, I immediately was like, you and I have been reading
all of the same things.
Clearly we've just finished going through Jack Frost's sonship.
And you're like, who's Jack Frost?
It's like, what are you talking about right now?
(23:41):
And so, you and I have both, think, been immersed in the power and the beauty and therelease and, the identity, shaping, finding experience of sonship.
And if you look biblically, once you see that framework, it's like we talked about how theBible comes to life, becomes color from black and white.
(24:06):
It becomes its own color.
You can see it just over and over and over and over again.
You can't miss it.
It's all about inherit.
Everything is about inheritance and everything is about, you know, relationship andeverything is about finding our identity.
And what I loved in part of what you were talking about with the Bible and how that waskind of presented to us is that we come from a Western minded format where everything is
(24:30):
built on a narrative story that makes sense as you typically move forward.
And we think of the Bible as a book and of course it's a library of books.
And then there's all kinds of different books in that library.
it's all this crazy, like when you start to discover all those things that I know we'veboth discovered since then, you're like, wait a minute.
But the thing that one of the primary themes throughout all those differences and allthose books is this color of sonship from Adam's relationship to God, just from John.
(25:02):
It's all, it's all centered on that.
And one of the ways that it's, can do some compare and contrast.
So for instance, and, in the Christian world, there is a central relationship that we'recalled to live in.
It's over and over and over.
that the picture is that God is father or shepherd.
Like there's this caretaking, overseeing, protective image that's throughout the Bible,Catholic, United Methodist, Baptist, nonprofit, whatever.
(25:31):
It's always there.
This is the core relationship.
That's not always so in religious environments.
For instance, in Islam, it's master and slave.
Allah is the master and I am his slave is the primary relationship.
Well, just thinking about the differences and the expression and the fruit just from thatcore relationship that God is father and you are a son or a daughter versus God is the
(25:57):
master and you are a slave is a comp-
completely different relationship.
is a completely different experience and it affects you from your core completelydifferent.
And in fact, in my opinion, what God is doing over all of that time is trying to make surewe understand that that is what we're talking about.
That He is the Father and that we are His sons.
(26:19):
And that changes our identity, the way that we function in the world, what we can expectfrom inheritance, everything.
And so, yeah.
You can, you can cruise through from Adam and Eve to Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jethro.
Gives him that picture, Jacob.
You can go to all of the pictures of Joseph coming out with his brothers and his dad.
(26:45):
how he rises in Egypt.
You can cruise through to every one of the prophets is basically saying, you guys aren'tacting like sons.
You're acting, you know, like adolescent children.
You are broken.
The, the, I was, somebody taught me one time that adolescence is knowing what the rightthing to do.
(27:05):
You just don't do it.
You know, so an adolescent person in life, you know, I've got a couple at the house andthey'll know what's right to do.
They just don't want to do it until everything they can to kind of avoid it or complaintheirself away.
I often tell Cathy when both of us are getting mad at them.
like, when they make those faces, those are the faces that we've learned not to make, butwe still have all the same feelings.
(27:28):
Take out the trash.
Okay, honey.
But what we really want to do is have a very adolescent response.
Well, adolescence is that kind of period of, knowing what's right to do and just not doingit.
Well, in the development of Israel, you can see it.
You can see their adolescence.
You can see the prophets coming in and being like, Hey, what are you doing?
They're like parents voices saying, quit behaving this way.
(27:48):
You're destroying yourselves and the world and you're mishandling the promise.
And you have this incredible inheritance.
What are you doing?
So again, if it comes from you're a son, you're a daughter, you're the family, it beginsto help you change the versions of everything that you're reading.
And so Sonship really just enlightened me in reading the Bible.
(28:09):
And then in doing that, changed the way I function in the world in kind of crazy ways,really crazy ways.
mean, when, when you initially stumbled across this, how did, we've never talked about,how did you come to an understanding of Sonship from the beginning?
i don't sound super spiritual
(28:35):
It was so organic.
That's cool.
I still never read a book by Jack Frost.
I still don't, I kind of don't like reading articles about Sonship from other people.
For me, salvation and the revelation of Sonship, or I would say the invitation of Sonship.
(28:57):
So first I experienced salvation, then I went for a long period of time thinking that justsalvation,
getting through the door of heaven, making the good confession, becoming a Christian, thatthat was going to be the solution to my problems.
Well, a decade goes by, I've been at many different churches, even, you know, I was even apastor, a paid teacher of scripture, but sonship was nowhere on my radar at all.
(29:26):
And I was so unhappy that I ended up leaving ministry.
Because God said this is not the right place for you.
I have things to do in you I did not know what he was going to do and then two three yearsafter leaving ministry and being Working, you know in in the secular world a friend
(29:48):
invited me up to a retreat in Colorado Well, I went back.
I had a great experience began to get my heart back but that's when I became that's when Iwas invited to become a
a curious student of my heart.
That's interesting.
Why am I so angry?
Why do I, why do I stay away from people who've got, this character characteristic, thisquality, you know, people who, have a lot of money or a lot of wisdom or a lot of business
(30:21):
acumen.
Why do they intimidate me?
And I didn't know there were relevant questions until I went to another retreat and I
was hurt.
I was just snubbed.
What I felt like was snubbed by somebody.
I felt offended by it.
And so I went to my journal and I started writing and over the course of four days I justgot more and more pissed at God.
(30:47):
know, it was a supernatural uprising out of the ground to see things that I had never seenbefore.
And all of that
was his gift to me to surface and help me articulate what I was so mad about, or at leastwhat I thought I was so mad about, so that I could be angry with God.
(31:13):
I had been suppressing that.
In my fear of God, I had not been honest with him or myself about how I really felt abouthim.
And at the end of that retreat, I was sitting in the grass and
I finally said, I'm just done.
I'm angry.
This salvation thing doesn't work.
(31:34):
I'm not any happier.
And you've ignored me all weekend.
I just, I left because I really resonated with what you're saying right now.
I've been in that exact spot where you're just like totally having like a temper tantrumand at the time you feel so stinking righteous and you look back on it and you're like, my
(31:56):
gosh, that's embarrassing.
It is, it is.
He must have been laughing the whole yeah, sweet laughing.
Yeah, like, look at him.
He look down.
We're almost there.
I even went so far in my journal to begin recording all of the offenses, you know, likeall of the thing.
he just like, and I'd begin walking somewhere and be like, damn it, there's another one,you know, so I'd write it down.
(32:22):
So page after page of ways that he had not.
protected me that he had not provided for me, ways that other men had snubbed me,overlooked me.
You know, like all these ways that I felt like a boy who wasn't noticed by his dad.
Oh yeah, wow.
And I was simply a grown man who was probably not even acting with the wisdom and maturityof an adolescent.
(32:51):
I was still a little boy, a little bitty boy inside.
came to the end of that retreat, said, God, what do you have to say about all this stuffthat I've written down here and I didn't hear anything?
And then I threw my journal in the grass.
many of you friends who've been listening to me, you've heard me tell the story, but itmoves me every time I say it.
(33:14):
I threw my journal in the grass and I said, screw it.
I meant screw all of this.
I'm never coming back to a retreat again.
I'm not writing in my journal again.
I would probably be better off if I just did it on my own as opposed to hoping that you'regoing to meet me and be disappointed again, which was my expectation.
And once I let go of all that and I completely gave up, I heard a voice so loud and sotender in my heart and in my mind.
(33:43):
And it said, you were never the beloved son.
And in that moment,
I knew he was diagnosing that every problem, all my anger, everything came from thatproblem that I could never have diagnosed.
And in that moment, in the kindness of his voice, I knew that he was asking me, would youlike to be my beloved son?
(34:14):
And I said to him,
I mean, I'm weeping at this point because he cracked me open like that.
And I'm weeping and I'm feeling rescued by it.
And I said to him, what does that mean?
(34:36):
to be your beloved son, and there was no answer.
But that was the question that he planted in my heart so that I could begin thinking ofeverything.
In that moment, as I read scripture, I knew that somehow there was going to be a color onthat theme, and I began just begging him, help me see it.
(34:57):
Help me see Jesus in light of it.
He clearly was inviting me into a...
into an understanding that I don't currently have.
So, okay, open up all of scripture to me.
So I began praying the same prayers that I had always been praying, but now I was invitedto be his beloved son.
(35:19):
So God just supernaturally began making things come alive to me.
I didn't know, I I'd never heard it from anybody.
And yeah, so that was a question.
What does it mean to be a beloved son?
So I just began to anticipate that from Genesis to Revelation, somehow there was going tobe something for me to discover in that.
(35:45):
so it was really humorous when, you know, people started telling me, you've obviously readthis book.
I'm like, no, I never even heard of this dude.
Well, the powerful part for me on the other side is to realize, like, I know for sure.
And Jack Frost is dead, by the way.
And if you're entertained by the name Jack Frost, I am too.
But, you know, it's, but what's fun about it is that he would have been so excited to talkto you because of his story and his story is worth seeking out too.
(36:16):
Shiloh placed ministries is where you can find that out.
But, and on, think on YouTube too, and he's got a really wild voice, by the way, he's acharismatic, so get ready if you go looking for him, just heads up.
But what was really affirming to me was to see
how you had articulated in organic discovery led by the spirit, what he had alsoorganically discovered and was led by the spirit, but they are so close that it's, you
(36:48):
know, borderline, not miraculous and beautiful and also obvious.
Does that make sense?
course, cause like, maybe like, like you now it's a, it's like this framework.
for understanding.
remember right after I started learning about or having this kind of unfold in me or thisthing kind of invade or become me or already was and I was whatever it was the mystery of
(37:16):
how it kind of becomes how you breathe a little bit is I remember we were going to do thisthe
the church that I was working for, they wanted to do a theme and they wanted to do aseries and the series is going to be thinking about growing up Catholic.
They were going to do the the old, I'm not the Old Testament, the Lord's Prayer.
They want to do a series on the Lord's Prayer.
(37:36):
like, oh, that's a good idea.
It's like, okay, well, how much do you want?
I'll go look at it I'll come back and tell you like how much per week we'll do.
And so I came back and I'm like, okay, well, how are we going to break it up?
I said, well, the first thing we have to do is the first word, hour.
That's the first sermon.
Why would he start there?
I just, it's amazing to think about that.
(37:58):
That's how he taught us to pray his hour.
This is us.
We're family, like right here.
And they're like, okay, what's the next one?
I'm like, well, the next one is a three week series and it's called father.
They're like, this is going to be a year and a half trying to get through the, uh, youknow, the Lord's prayer.
I'm like, well, it could be, and I'm sorry, but I'm seeing this so differently.
(38:19):
That this prayer that I grew up saying and just wrote all the time, you know, just overand over and over is now this bombshell that when I read it, ended up weeping through it.
Just one phrase and sentence at a time thinking that every word could be different.
You know, my, you know, like master, like you can, you can rewrite the Lord's prayer withcompletely different words and relationships and discover other religions and other ways
(38:47):
and understanding philosophically the world.
But that's not the way it comes.
It comes out in this extraordinarily beautiful way.
That's transformative and giving and you have everything that you need and don't be lockedup and you other people, your, your hatred of other people and all this other kind of
stuff.
so exactly like you, it's sort of now everything is colored by this picture.
(39:13):
so much so that, you know, that's the kind of thing that your friends stop asking youabout.
Did they ever do that to you where they're like,
Don't ask him about the whole sonship thing.
He'll go on for like 20 minutes.
That's more my wife reaching over and putting her hand on my forearm.
Yeah.
Critical.
Hey, hey, hey.
Yeah.
(39:33):
Yeah.
And she'll do it long before I've, ramped up.
My welcome is over.
She'll do it at the very beginning.
Like before you even launch off, you better summarize this really quickly.
So great.
Yeah.
She knows me.
She knows me.
So let me ask you this.
For me, salvation and the revelation of sonship were not one and the same event for me.
(39:59):
What about you?
Totally different.
Can you share a little bit about that?
Yeah, I have one of those pieces where my salvation comes in sort of chapters of a book.
wasn't sort of a big crisis time in my life, that kind of thing.
I have had those and been saved from those and all that kind of stuff.
(40:21):
But if I look back across my life, my salvation moment is actually quite early.
Like, but I knew Jesus who he was and our relationship started and I gave him my life.
I mean, I've tried to take it back several times, you know, we have a nice littlewrestling on the things that, I think I can handle kind of idea, which are terrible.
But what happened was it's really the wrestling match that began at salvation.
(40:47):
for me, because of that kind of not knowing my identity or not believing that God wouldprovide or that there was an inheritance for me or that I didn't have to prove anything in
any room.
All of the things that you learn from sonship, you know, my father is the creator ofuniverse.
(41:09):
don't really need to over worry about a lot of stuff.
I need to show up as my full self and.
be prepared to learn things I don't know, but I'm not sure that I need to prove anythingto anybody, but I didn't know any of that.
So my salvation was really a wrestling match and an argument for a long time.
Um, I would, I would get it.
(41:30):
would be immersed in it.
And then I would sort of be frustrated and limited.
Whatever, you know, kind of the same thing you were feeling at that retreat.
felt some pieces and parts across my life.
And then when sonship showed up.
It was like, why didn't they, why didn't they give me this when I got the other thing?
(41:50):
Like, I wish I could have started here and which has been a part of my walk ever since isthat it's so important for me to talk about someone's identity around their salvation.
You know, if it doesn't come at the same time and I'm around, it's coming pretty soon.
because it was the thing that helped me walk out what it meant to be a son of God.
(42:14):
You know, I don't know that I had any concept of that.
And so that's it came.
So that, that thing came across the course of a lifetime and sonship didn't show up until,Jay, was ordained just like you.
was teaching just like you.
had been to Israel and seen all the stuff and been teaching it coming back.
(42:40):
And then a friend of mine, Mel Swartz.
who this is his microphone, uh, handed me Jack Frost stuff and I put his back in the CDsstage.
I tossed him in the back of my truck and didn't listen to him.
And then Jack died and, Mel said, Hey, you know, those CDs, do you mind giving them backto me?
(43:01):
I want to listen to him again.
He passed away and I just want to do that.
And I'm like, I don't think.
climbed on me, should do it.
So I said, all right, look, let me listen to, I'll take one and I'll rotate them forweeks.
And we started talking about them and over the next six months.
I just became a very different person.
(43:24):
So as you were listening, can you describe what God was doing in your heart?
I'll try.
so when I began to listen, he right away began to talk about identity, which I don'tremember anybody in my spiritual life ever talking about my identity, my position in
(43:54):
relationship to God we talked about.
And I wouldn't have said it at the time, but I look back and I'm like,
What is my position in relationship with God?
Am I accepted?
Am I not accepted?
And so I'm not accepted because of sin.
And then I become accepted through Christ and now I'm accepted.
Okay.
So my position was a part of that, but my relationship was never developed, no maturity.
(44:17):
And he starts talking about identity, like who you are.
And I'm like, well, wait a minute, we've never had this conversation.
How is it that God does?
And then he starts unfolding this kind of.
This is who you are.
You are his son.
What does it mean to be a son?
Well, I have, I have the privilege of having a very warm, loving, encouraging father inreal life.
(44:43):
I'm, I tell people all the time that if generally, if parent, people had my parents, theworld would be much better.
They are extraordinary human beings.
And my father in particular was working from not so many tools.
and did a lot of work to become something else.
(45:03):
In fact, my dad will say it takes three generations to make a decent human being to whichI'll always say, well, dad, where are we?
And he'll wink at me and say, Jerry's out, Jerry's out.
Sweet little thing we do.
And I'm pretty sure he's convinced that it's his grandchildren that I'm decent.
(45:23):
That's okay.
So.
I went into this thing of, what does it mean for to have a father that loves you, thatprovides for you, that your identity isn't one that you have to scrap and claim and fight
other people for, that resources are unlimited, that your world is set before you to bewho you were created to be and not who the world expects you to be?
(45:48):
Just these things that started to affect me in a way that I didn't realize.
my motivations.
I didn't realize how I was functioning in the world.
And worse than that, or maybe more than that, I didn't realize that there was an option.
I didn't realize that there was another way to just function in the world and, and evenmaybe less functioning in the world and functioning inside myself to be at peace.
(46:17):
I, for instance, an example is,
feeling like I have to say something all the time.
If I know something about a topic, I'm in a room and I'm like, well, as soon as I get alittle break here, I'm gonna gonna unwrap this powerful little nugget that everybody's
gonna say, we love having Scott in the room.
He's amazing.
So I did this for like ever, you know, and then when you're in Sonship, you're just like,I'm not really sure that even though that might be a helpful thought that it's the right
(46:48):
helpful thought.
And I know that the spirit will somehow nudge someone else or the conversation in thedirection that will allow that to make sense because I can be at rest and at peace and who
I am, and I don't have to prove anything to anybody.
And that was a very different approach for me.
(47:09):
And I I'm looking back on it has become so integrated in my life.
It's funny that
Probably the first two years after learning this, could have, I had very crisp answersbecause they came from Jack and now they're so integrated.
I'm trying to, it's like, I'm trying to lift something out of my DNA.
(47:29):
So it's strange, but I think maybe the, easiest phrase for me that may help for mydisposition in the world was I went from walking into a room.
and kind of changing according to what was in the room or who was in the room.
Like I would kind of change.
(47:53):
And now I walk into the room and I know that the room will change because of who I am inGod.
It's not an arrogant thing.
It's just, I don't have to change.
I don't have to be anything for anybody.
I can be exactly who I'm created to be.
(48:13):
And if God has me here in this place, maybe I'm just encouraging and quiet, or maybe Ineed to lead, but that will reveal itself.
And I don't need to generate.
Lame, you know, ask for credit.
You were talking about the snubbing thing.
(48:35):
I'd like to say I never had that problem.
What I'll say is I never physically made a list.
That is, you win on that.
That is really epic.
But that doesn't, didn't have a list or didn't have like that whole thing.
Like, you know, people would come into a room and, know, you're like, you're sitting therethinking, yeah, they're going to ask me, I'm going to solve this.
(48:59):
And they don't even pay any attention to you.
They walk right by you.
They talk to somebody else, you know, whatever it is.
you're, you're not included in the committee.
You're not included in the group.
You're not included in that kind of stuff.
And you start really getting to be toxic.
And so that went away too.
I was like,
Why am I worried about dragging new drama in or being some sort of adolescent that, shedoesn't even, like this kind of interior whininess.
(49:27):
my gosh.
It's just hideous.
So it was the discovery of motivation, a new, a new way of approaching identity and thatidentity, interior core identity, like your spiritual DNA.
is what God has built and wants you to discover, not something that you have to build andprove.
(49:51):
It's more archaeology than it is architecture.
Yes, it's something that we have to discover, which I have the same, I had the sameresponse that, that you articulated a minute ago.
You just got pissed that why didn't you just start from the beginning with this?
(50:15):
You know, I talked about all those themes.
I'm, sitting here and thinking about our conversation.
I'm thinking about all the things that I was taught and maybe I'm minimizing the value oflearning.
you know, that Jesus is coming back and he's going to be really angry when he comes backand creation, the flood, you know, those stories.
(50:38):
But sonship, the family, the heart of God, like the tenderness, I didn't explore that anyfurther than John 3.16.
You know?
And it's a beautiful passage, but you don't even really begin to understand it.
Maybe it's the door to get into some better questions, but John 3.16...
(51:05):
That's a great phrase.
It's a door to get to better questions.
Just to put a fine point on that, I think, and you do this beautifully, is I really thinkthat most of our faith, when we approach it initially, we're looking for answers.
But really all we're going to be taught is how to ask the right questions.
Yeah.
Cause it's a relationship built on conversation and that conversation is ongoing.
(51:30):
So every time you think, I just, if somebody would just tell me the five things I need todo to be okay.
You're like, well, that's not going to work for you.
The thing that's going to work for you is beginning to ask, why do I need to know this?
Why am I in this space?
Do I remember who I am in this?
know, like it changes completely when you get.
this framework of sonship.
(51:51):
I just couldn't agree more.
And the idea that it is a doorway into better questions is a fantastic way to think aboutat least one element of that scripture.
Well, want to, I want to ask you to take us on a tour of sonship in scripture as you'velearned it.
(52:17):
Just to kind of end what you and I have been talking about the last couple of minuteshere, it is, in my experience, always two different experiences.
And in the men that I know, our, you know, our brothers that I walk with have campfireswith go on adventures that there are two different experiences is there's salvation.
(52:40):
And then there is a question maybe that leads
into a revelation of sonship which ends up changing and coloring everything.
And this is a scripture.
And guys, if you have been with me on any Father-Son, Father-Daughter retreats, or you'vebeen with me anywhere or listen to this podcast, you will hear me reference this
(53:04):
scripture.
But I believe this probably helped me understand sonship as much if not more than anyother passage of scripture.
And until I had eyes to
to see it, I couldn't appreciate it, but it's Matthew 11, 25 through 29.
The Father revealed in the Son.
(53:25):
And this is what Jesus said, kind of out of the blue, out of nowhere.
Jesus says, at that time, Jesus said, I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth,because you've hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little
children.
Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Now I can see, if I'm reading like the New King James,
(53:46):
I can see that that is a hyperlink to Genesis chapter 1.
He's saying, the very beginning there were two trees, there's only two ways to do life.
That's what he's invoking with the wise and the learned, and the comparison to the littlechildren, which we are meant to live as little children.
The wise and the learned, those people who figure it out on their own, they don't get it.
(54:08):
Those people who begin to approach God as little children, fully in need, full ofquestions,
those are the ones that the Father reveals the secrets to.
And Jesus goes on, all things have been committed to me by my Father.
No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son andthose to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(54:28):
So, what I look back on my story, and as you're articulating it in the stories of otherpeople, is that the Father first reveals the Son as the Savior.
We come to Him as the Savior, and then Jesus begins to reveal
the Father to us.
And so I've just begin praying as a practice, Jesus, I was doing it this morning withHeather, Jesus, would you reveal the Father to me in every way through scripture, through
(54:58):
just looking and considering in my sanctified imagination what it was like to walk withyou?
Reveal the Father to me through your prayers, you know, the Our Father, the model prayer.
And then Jesus
gives us some insight into exactly what he's inviting us into by moving from being thewise and learned into becoming little children, by praying and asking that Jesus would
(55:25):
reveal the Father to us.
This is the end result.
Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you.
Learn from me, for I'm gentle and humble in heart.
You'll find rest for your souls.
My yoke is easy, my burden is light.
and your description of how you walk into a room and all of a sudden the burden for youmaintaining appearances and self-promotion, like I so resonate with that and with the men
(55:50):
I am around campfires with, the more we embrace sonship, the more we can be curious, thelighter the load, the lighter, the less the need for us to take care of ourselves and
provide everything for ourselves.
So I just...
want to invite all of us in this moment to just pray together to Jesus.
(56:11):
Jesus, thank you for this that you said.
Thank you that you listened to the Father and you prayed exactly what the Father told youto pray, and you're giving us a secret here.
We want to be babes.
Jesus, would you teach us how to be babes instead of the wise and learned who don't askfor help?
(56:32):
The smarty pants.
And we ask you, Jesus,
Would you reveal the Father to us?
You and you alone can reveal the Father.
And so we're asking to give us a revelation of the Father, of His character, of His loveand His feelings for us.
Would you allow our sonship to be something that we grow in understanding?
(56:55):
And as our older brother in all of this, would you teach us how to approach and to livewith the Father as we were created and designed to do?
Thanks Jesus.
Amen.
(57:34):
Sons, friends, so glad you were here for part 1 of this 2 part podcast with Scott Heare.
In the next episode we're going to be bringing this conversation to a conclusion .
We're going to be focusing on the thread ...the all-important thread of sonship that Godhas woven all through the human story, the Old Testament, the New Testament, and we're
going to be unpacking what adoption truly means using the whole narrative of the Bibletruly means using the whole narrative of the Bible.
So you're not going to want to miss that.
So glad you were here for this part one of this conversation with Scott Heare and we willtalk to you at the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.