December 10, 2025 • 35 mins
Dina, Pastor Zach, and Tyler talk honestly about holiday family tension through the story of Jacob and Esau, showing how forgiveness brings freedom even when relationships are messy. They offer practical wisdom for rebuilding trust over time—with healthy boundaries, honest conversations, and the reminder that God’s forgiveness is what makes our own possible.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:04):
Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the King of Kings
podcast where we dive a littlebit deeper into our message
series and see what we're takingBeyond Sunday.
My name is Dina Newsome, and Iam excited to have some
wonderful gentlemen with metoday.
That's a title, guys.
You got to step it up.
Gentlemen.
SPEAKER_03 (00:19):
Yeah, I'm always curious.
You do an adjective and then uha word after.
So today was wonderfulgentlemen.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Wonderful gentlemen.
I'll take it.
SPEAKER_03 (00:26):
I'm Zach, and this is I'm Tyler.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Thanks for being here today, guys.
We're happy to.
SPEAKER_03 (00:32):
Well, actually, I've learned in counseling I should
talk for myself and not others.
I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
It just so happens.
I am also happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
It also happens that I am happy to be here.
So much joy.
Three peas in a pod.
Okay, so I don't know if youguys know this.
Today is national, no,international.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
Oh, international.
SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
Christmas card day.
So my question for you is yourfamily a Christmas card family?
And are you like where you sendout Christmas cards?
Do you do like the little letteror the summary thing or digital
cards?
Now some people do digital orno, not at all.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Our family's shaking his head.
Our family is a no, not becausewe're opposed to it or anything,
but man, like I've been inministry for 12 years.
The first 11 and a half of thosewas a full-time worship role.
And like you don't, you barelysleep between the month, between
Thanksgiving and Christmas witheverything going on.
And it's never been somethingthat Aaliyah's been like, man,
(01:30):
let's get the family picturedone.
So we gladly receive others.
And and then people can find uson social media.
They can knock on our door inFremont.
We're we're here, we're smiling.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
That's interesting.
I always thought worship leadershad a ton of time.
So I wasn't sure how they filledtheir week outside of looking at
like skinny jeans and latesttrends.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Yeah, that that would define me to a tease act.
SPEAKER_03 (01:51):
Uh, we've we've gotten more and more minimized
over the year.
When we were early married, itfelt like we had the pictures
with the letter.
Lots of time went into it.
Now uh I we sent out a picturelast year.
I don't even think we did thatthis year.
Typically, Allison's been thechampion of it.
So it's really whatever she's inthe mood for.
And I'm like, cool, great.
(02:12):
I'll write it.
I enjoy writing it, or I didenjoy writing it.
My favorite was is though our mybrother-in-law, who's our campus
director here, Peter Bay.
He and my sister Carista, theysend out a Christmas card that
has their family photo and theyhave a spot the difference.
So there's the nice familyphoto, and then there's the next
photo right next to it, whichhas like five, six, seven, eight
(02:34):
differences, and you got to findwhat they are.
SPEAKER_02 (02:35):
But very minute differences.
It's not even all very hard.
It's not even yes.
SPEAKER_03 (02:39):
It's it's my it's the one I look at everybody's
card, and I'm so grateful foreverybody that sends me the
card.
I read every letter, every wordfrom every letter.
But my favorite thing to receiveis their family phone.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
And and to Peter's credit, like he's created this
brand and expectation.
Yeah, it's very, very wellmarketed.
He's created brand loyalty,customer loyalty.
Well done, Peter and Christa.
SPEAKER_03 (03:06):
And the good news for every Beyond Sunday listener
out there, email Peter atkingofkings.org and you can get
a Christmas card from Peter andhis family this year.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
It's it's not only the picture though, it's the
letter where Peter writes hiscreative imaginative and then
Carista corrects it and says,No, it wasn't really X amount of
whatever or my sister who isblunt and truthful and gives it
to you straight.
SPEAKER_03 (03:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
It's a perfect reflection of their
personalities.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
That is.
That's a that's Peter.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (03:37):
Family's fun, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
Did you know that Christmas cards were invented as
a marketing ploy?
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
Tell us more.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
They were in 1843, Sir Henry Cole, who was part of
the British civil service,created the first um Christmas,
modern day Christmas card topromote the newly formed British
postal system.
He wanted something that peoplecould mail.
So he thought this was somethingto do.
(04:06):
I thought that was interesting.
SPEAKER_03 (04:07):
And now it just gums up our U.S.
Postal Service so thateverything else is delayed.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
All right.
So we started a new sermonseries this week called Family
Matters, and Family Can BeTricky, uncomfortable,
wonderful.
All of those great um umadjectives.
And Seth Flick, Pastor SethFlick started us off with this.
So from this first message, whatare you guys taking beyond
Sunday?
What stuck with you?
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
For me, it was uh probably what stuck with me is
probably his sticky statement.
Uh, forgiveness is a must andtrust takes time to adjust.
There's a lot to unpack there,which I'm sure we'll do a little
bit of, but that's the thing I'mtaking beyond Sunday.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Yeah, what I took beyond Sunday, uh we'll we'll
get into the story of Jacob andEsau, but it what was what's so
fascinating is like it was 20years of family estrangement
based on two moments.
Like how significant momentsare.
And then if we don't pursuereconciliation, look at all the
consequence that can come on theback end.
(05:09):
And it was two relativelyeveryday moments.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Yeah, I really liked he made the statement avoidance
and secrecy doesn't solve aproblem, it only delays the
consequences and how that playedout in Jacob and Isa.
Sorry.
Okay, so to start out, he wastalking about Family Matters,
the sitcom with Urkel,everyone's favorite.
Did I do that?
SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
He did a really good job doing the Urkel impression.
Did I do that?
Exactly.
Very, very nasally.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, I'm curious, what were yourfavorite sitcoms from your
childhood?
And how do you remember thattheir lessons stayed with you?
SPEAKER_03 (05:48):
I my favorite was home improvement with Tim Allen.
So fun.
Every week it was funny.
It was Jonathan Taylor Thomas,JTT.
He was like every girl's heartthrob.
Like he was the guy.
Anyway, it was a it was a prettyfunny show that my family sat
around and watched.
It was it was pretty sweet.
And and kind of ironic becauseI'm the like the probably why I
(06:10):
related to it and my why myfamily related to it is because
we're not very handy ormaintenance is not really our
strength.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
Not a Tim the Tool Time Taylor.
SPEAKER_03 (06:19):
Well, here's the Tim the Tool Man Taylor, but Tim's
making all these mistakes.
It's like I feel like, yeah,that's me.
Except somehow he got the job ofbeing a tool man guy.
SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
Well, he's a he was a TV host.
SPEAKER_03 (06:29):
Yeah, and and we had a fence growing up, which if you
remember the neighbor wasWilson, and you never got to see
his face.
Only you don't you only get thewisdom, you know, across the
fence from Wilson.
And our fence, there was a guythat I feel like was that.
We never really saw his face.
He was just there.
He didn't give us wisdom, but wecalled him Wilson.
I don't know if that I don'tknow what his name was.
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Yeah.
So the show that came to mymind, and I think Seth even
referenced it in the TJF lineupwas Full House.
And uh, and so you can justimagine I can just still see
that San Francisco set with theblue couch in the living room,
and you had what Danny as thedad and Jesse as the uncle and
(07:10):
then Joey was like the friendadopted uncle.
Does that sound right?
Yeah.
Sure.
But Seth mentioned, he's like,you know, these sitcoms, they
they have some sort of conflictand they resolve within 20 to 22
to 24 minutes.
And Full House had this amazingformula that within the last two
minutes, it was always like oneof the dad figures sits down
(07:31):
with the girls and they talk itout and then they hug it out
with all the sappy music behind.
And in terms you asked, like alesson, right?
From it was like hugs, like itwas it's like kind of giving
this like cultural permission oflike, let's be a hugging family.
This is a sweet show.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
I like that.
SPEAKER_03 (07:49):
Big Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen fan there.
I didn't go that far, Zach.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
He was clear to lay that line.
SPEAKER_02 (07:56):
Michelle was an adorable character though.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
I grew up with the Cosby show when it was still
big.
And um, I that was just what ourfamily watched together.
And what I remember from therewere the parents were always
right.
And I just like to say that as Ibecame a parent, I really missed
that and did not find that valueas much on TV to share with my
(08:20):
children.
Um, so but it is the parentsjust always knew better, always.
SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
Right.
And we still do, kids.
Yes, yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Um, okay, so the biblical focus for this week's
message was talking about thesibling rivalry between Jacob
and Esau and that relationship.
So, does one of you want to kindof summarize what pieces we
talked about this week withthat?
SPEAKER_02 (08:47):
I'll attempt and then Zach can clean any clean up
any.
SPEAKER_03 (08:50):
No, this is great.
Poor Tyler, I don't know ifpeople know this, is going to
seminary and I get to serve ashis supervisor, which feels
ridiculous.
And so this is fun.
This is me supervising you anduh seminary.
You can actually just listenlive to see how well he's doing.
SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
There you go.
Okay, pressure's on.
Um, all right.
So we're we're in Genesis 27.
So wrong 28.
I'm just kidding.
So Isaac is the kind of son ofblessing from Abraham,
miraculous blessing, miraculousbirth.
And then he has these two uh twokids with Rebecca, um, Esau and
(09:27):
Jacob, and they are like rivalsfrom birth, like uh where Jacob
is like pulling at Esau's heel,even coming out of the birth
canal.
Um, and so Seth, almost in likea treating it as if it were a TV
sitcom as he was going throughthe story, um, highlighted these
two kind of moments where Jacobis described as a taker.
(09:50):
And like, I don't think anythinghe said was incorrect.
Like he really did, he took thebirthright from Esau, and like
Esau was willing to sell hisbirthright because he was
hungry.
It must have been a very goodpot of soup.
SPEAKER_03 (10:03):
Yeah, my my actual takeaway now that I think about
it is I think lentil stew, let'sjust forget lentil stew forever.
It's never done good foranybody, it doesn't taste good,
it ruined this guy's life.
Yeah, and so that would be mytakeaway.
Go ahead.
You're doing great.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
I needed a little bit of a little bit of a little
bit of a that was the theologythat I really needed to give
that theological point.
SPEAKER_02 (10:25):
It's good, it's good.
Um, so yeah, so so Jacob takesthe birthright, kind of trades
the birthright because Esau's inthis vulnerable state because
he's so hungry.
Um, and so that means that Jacobis now kind of takes his place
in the messianic line.
He's now representing his familyum as the head of the household.
And then later on, Jacob stealsum Esau's blessing.
(10:48):
And so that familiar story whereum Isaac can't see see very
well.
And so uh Rebecca has this crazyidea.
It's like, oh, well, let's let'sput put kind of the the the what
was it sheep sheep's wall?
What was it on the heart?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So then Isaac can't he can'ttotally tell, but he's like, oh,
this kind of smells like Esau,it feels like Esau.
So he's like, I'm gonna give himthe blessing.
(11:09):
And then this so sad story iswhen Esau comes back in and he's
like, Father, have you notreserved a blessing for me?
And the answer is no.
And so, because of that, you canimagine the resentment that Esau
has towards his brother, who isnow just taken and taken and
taken.
Um, and then Jacob is encouragedto flee.
(11:31):
Uh, I think we're actually goingto get into that story this this
coming week.
Um, and then 20 years passbefore this reconciliation
moment.
And so Seth was able to kind ofnavigate each of these moments
and draw out the sibling rivalryaspect and where we're prone to
do it, givers, takers, um, andthen hopefully pursue
reconciliation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Well done.
unknown (11:54):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Good job.
SPEAKER_03 (11:55):
That's only one course out of 16 completed at
the seminary.
Can you imagine?
SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
After 16 classes, I might be able to summarize
things quicker.
Maybe that's what I'll getbetter at.
SPEAKER_03 (12:07):
That was great.
You did great.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Okay.
So, in looking at therelationship between Jacob and
Eesu, how does this story helpus understand sibling rivalry
and really more so familydynamics in today's culture?
SPEAKER_03 (12:21):
Yeah, and I and I know that the coming week will
be focused on sort of parentsand um things like that.
How do we how do we trustparents or when you know parents
are making decisions or evenmake mistakes, which does happen
actually, kids, we do makemistakes, we don't know
everything.
But but a part a big part of therivalry, it's kind of a bummer
because like, yeah, Jacob andEsau are the ones we're talking
about, but actually it kind ofstemmed as well from the
(12:44):
parents.
Like they each picked theirfavorites and they kind of put
them at odds with one another,which is super challenging and
frustrating from the verybeginning.
And I think the big piece Ipicked up from Seth in the
sermon is just how different uhparenting styles or uh not even
just parenting, but uh differentstyles of when there's conflict,
(13:06):
there's uh a lot of unhealthyways to not resolve conflict.
And one of them is to fight,which is what Esau wanted to do.
Another one was right, flight,which is what Jacob did.
And when we have issue or whensomething wrong happens, when
it's in especially if it's inour family, we we've got to come
(13:27):
to a place where we're gonnahave conflict and we've got to
figure out healthier ways thatwe're gonna resolve this and not
just avoid it, which is uh areal temptation and and easy and
comfortable.
But it it it it lingers and itcreates, in their case, two
decades that they lost that theycould have who knows what would
(13:47):
have happened in those years andwhat their relationship could
have looked like.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Yeah, so Ephesians 4 uh talks a lot about like unity
in the body of Christ, andthere's a phrase that Paul uses
he says, bearing with oneanother in love.
And I think in some ways it'sactually easier to bear with one
another in love with those thatyou don't live in a house with.
There's something about the kindof proximity of relationship,
(14:14):
and it's like, oh, like we'renot getting away from each other
that can actually make thingsharder.
And so whether that's in amarriage situation or a
parenting situation, or in thiscase, a sibling situation, like
growing, growing up, my mybrother's four years older than
me, my sister's six years olderthan me, and like and if Corey's
listening to this podcast, Idon't think he would disagree.
(14:36):
Like, we just didn't get alonggrowing up, and it's like no
matter what my parents did, likeit just there was it was it was
tough.
And I'm happy to say that youknow, he went off to college.
I kind of grew up a little bit,and now he's like one of my best
friends.
But there's just something aboutbeing together and especially
being siblings, it's justfraught with difficulty.
(14:58):
And so then the question is, howare we gonna deal with this in a
way that's not destructive?
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
I have twin brothers.
They're four and a half yearsolder than me.
And I always thought that theywere the best of friends and you
know, totally against me.
But as it turns out, when Ithink back about our growing up,
one of my brothers I got alongwith all the time.
And the other one, we foughtlike cats and dogs all the time.
(15:24):
And I don't know what it wasabout that relationship that
just poke, poke, poke.
But I would say now I am closerprobably to the one that I
fought with more than I am tothe one that got along with both
of us better.
unknown (15:38):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (15:39):
I'm I'm fascinated at sibling relationships.
I'm fascinated at how Godcreates us so uniquely and how
those relationships fittogether, but also at how we um
how siblings can help each othergrow.
Like those siblings to me areyour first where you learn about
trust, you know, or where youlearn about cooperation, or you
(15:59):
learn about forgiveness.
Like I think more so even thanyour parents, it's your siblings
that you learn a little bit moreabout that because you you love
them or hate them at any moment,at any day.
SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
Yeah, and and it is, it's the ones you're practicing,
even if your parents say it, youneed to say I'm sorry.
You need to say I'm sorry, oryou will have XYZ happen.
And so I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
That's that's where we're so heartfelt.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
Whatever, but it's where we first learn to say
those words.
And it and it's just so muchlife on life.
And and I do, I think that it'sreally easy to get competitive
and to have rivalries, andespecially in the day of age we
live in, uh, it's very easy tocompare.
And and it's it's reallychallenging uh to grow up, you
(16:47):
know, as a young person intoday's world and uh have many
different expectations placed onyou.
And if you have a sibling thatis successful, um then that's a
threat to you and or it couldbe, and and so it's really hard.
And and when we compare oneanother, and you know, there's
(17:09):
all this birth order stuff offirst child, middle child.
I'm a middle child, so I'mbasically forgotten in my
family.
So the whole everything I do inlife is just to try to prove to
my parents that I'm still here,you know.
Um, but no, everybody's gotdifferent whatever with their
birth order.
There's there's so manydynamics, and some of it's true,
some of it's generalized,obviously, but um, but it it
(17:30):
really is challenging when youknow so-and-so gets more
attention, or so-and-so gets theaward, or so-and-so is getting
the attention and they're andbut they're get like getting in
trouble to in order to get theparents' attention.
So it's all these weird thingsat play, but you're right,
Tyler.
It's like we're still here andwe're still family, so we've
kind of got to figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (17:52):
So the other thing as we think about the Bible,
like siblings are all over theBible and stories of siblings.
So one, it's just this almostlike, thank you, Lord, that the
scriptures that you've given usare actually reflective of real
life and not this like idealizedsort of things like, oh yeah,
(18:13):
there was legit anger.
Esau wanted to kill Jacob.
That's not like that isreflecting Esau's real reality.
And then if you fast forward tothe New Testament, so much of
what happens in the Jacob-Esaurelationship is seen in Luke 15
and the parable of the prodigalson, where you have an older
brother, you have a youngerbrother, you have comparison,
like Zach just said, you evenhave that moment where right,
(18:36):
like the father is running andthere's the reconciliation.
Um, that and that's like theEsau-Jacob thing at the end.
Um, but for for us to actuallygrow spiritually through the
whole story of the Bible, Iguess that could be another
thing that I took away fromSunday is seeing that fun
connection in between Old NewTestament.
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
Yeah, I can't say I enjoy the stories like this, but
I enjoy that um it seems likepeople that are written about in
the Bible are not on a pedestaland unbeknownst to struggles and
rivalries and hurtful actions.
And so then it makes me feelless out of place when those
(19:17):
things happen in my life.
SPEAKER_03 (19:19):
Well, and I I I feel like there's a lot of folks that
Jacob's such a big name in theBible that I think a lot of
people associate really goodthings with him.
Yes.
Uh his name was changed toIsrael, right?
And he would have 12 sons, andhe would also, by the way, not
learn from his parents'mistakes.
He would choose favorites.
Got him into a whole lot oftrouble.
Jacob is a jerk.
(19:42):
Like honestly, he re there'smultiple chapters of this guy's
story.
Not a lot of Bible charactersget multiple chapters on them.
And and it's a challenge to findanything worthwhile for Jacob.
Like he's a punk.
Esau's kind of uh kind of seenon the outside and maybe in, you
know.
For people that don't know theirBible enough, might seem like
(20:02):
kind of the the maybe because hewasn't chosen or or whatnot, as
and his name wasn't changed toIsrael.
Uh Esau's a little bit more of alikable character in the story,
if I'm honest with you, thanJacob was.
Yeah.
And they have this beautifulreunion 20 years later.
And it's what's really neatabout this whole thing, which
(20:23):
gets to, you know, Seth's pointabout forgiveness, is Jacob was
so fearful of seeing Esau even20 years later.
And when they met, Esau met himwith this incredible grace and
this incredible forgiveness.
And that's 20 years later.
We they didn't speak.
So we don't know that, yeah, hewanted to kill him at first, and
you would too, if your brotherdid all these crappy things to
(20:45):
you.
But like at some point, Esaucame to terms with it and
forgave his brother.
And I would argue that's whatwhy forgiveness is so important
for us, is even if it doesn'tchange the other person, you
need that for yourself.
Like by you not by you notforgiving someone, a lot of
(21:05):
times we think that person'spaying for that.
They're not.
You're the one that's paying forthat.
Esau actually was free.
Whereas Jacob, the one that gotaway with it, he was the one
that was imprisoned.
So anyway, that was kind of atangent, but Jacob's a jerk.
That was my point.
SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
Well, yeah, Dina, I don't know.
This is I don't know whatdirection this podcast is going,
but it's great.
Um one like in in the Psalms,Yahweh is referred to as the God
of Jacob.
I know, isn't that cool?
Like that he's he's not, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:40):
Yeah, what do you take from that?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Like he's the god, he's the god who who embraces
sinners and works redemptionthrough I was about to say
broken situations, but that'slike screwy situations, like
deception.
God God is the god over sinnerswho deceive, not because we
deserve it, but because he lovesus so much.
Um to to be in a spot like Esauand Jacob, how often are we
(22:09):
caught in like a vainimagination wondering what the
other person thinks?
Right.
So Jacob for those 20 years, heknew he knows that Esau wanted
to destroy him.
And then he's just left up tohis own vain imagination.
And and if we're not careful,like our flesh and the devil
(22:29):
will take that and all the lifethat was lost because of it.
And so when we talk about thevalue of speaking words of
forgiveness, we can setourselves free and we can set
other people free in theredemption of Jesus.
Um, and even back to family, youguys, Zach, you referenced this
earlier, but forcing kids to sayI'm sorry, right?
(22:52):
As begrudging as they would.
I think it's also really, reallyhealthy for parents to apologize
to kids and model thatconfession and forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
That is a game changer for kids.
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
Um, because then you are you are saying, I'm not, I'm
I'm not gonna hold myselfhostage and I'm not gonna hold
you hostage of what I don't wantyou to be left wondering what I
think of you.
Um and yeah, it's 20 years.
It's a long time.
unknown (23:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
I think it was really valuable Seth brought up
later um about the point offorgiving someone doesn't mean
that you're allowing them tocontinue mistreatment also.
And I think that comes up a lottoday in conversations about
people, you know, cutting peopleout of their life or or um just
estranging people, that you canforgive someone and you're
(23:42):
letting that go for yourself,but you don't have to continue
to allow them to repeat thetreatment that was causing that
hurt in the in the beginning.
SPEAKER_03 (23:51):
Yeah, it doesn't mean that there all the
consequences get removed andthat everything goes back to
what it was.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Yeah.
For sure.
Like you said, it's really aboutyou and not about them.
unknown (24:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
So the sermon highlights the importance of
forgiveness in resolving familyconflicts.
What do you think are somebarriers that prevent family
members from reaching the pointof forgiveness?
And how do we try to overcomethose?
SPEAKER_02 (24:16):
Yeah.
I mean, the the first one, it'sprobably most obvious, is our
own pride.
Yeah.
It's really, really hard to getpast like that that step of
humility.
Like that is the first step.
But then I also think it it'syou rarely is it so one-sided
where it's usually in thesesorts of situations that there's
(24:38):
sibling rivalry, there'ssomething on each side.
There's there's some level ofoffense on each side.
And so there can be this fear ofhumility that then is this is
that person gonna weaponize itagainst me if they don't also
meet me in humility, and thenthey don't acknowledge I
acknowledge my wrong, they don'tacknowledge their wrong, like
(24:58):
that kind of sense of fairness.
Does that resonate with youguys?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
That's good.
SPEAKER_03 (25:03):
Yeah, I I think so.
Yeah.
I mean, you look at a pie graph,like it's not, I shouldn't say
ever, but I would say it'srarely ever 100% your fault, 0%
mine, or vice versa.
Like, even if there's 1%, like Igotta own my the 1%.
But I go back to something thatI I think I really learned in
the process of writing anddelivering forgiving challenge
(25:24):
years ago.
And every room I've ever beenin, I ask, who do you have who's
it harder to forgive, yourselfor someone else?
And it's about 80 to 90 percentthat say themselves.
So there's some real things thatneed to be tackled amongst
friends, siblings, parents,kids, all that stuff is very
(25:44):
real.
But I go back to the the ideaand the connection that Jesus
continually makes that we arecalled to forgive others, but
nearly any time Jesus ever talksabout forgiving others, he first
talks about receivingforgiveness.
And so a forgiven person is aforgiving person.
And so I I feel when we try tobring two parties to the table
(26:07):
to reconcile, if we're bringingtwo broken parties, that's going
to be challenging.
But if we're bringing twoforgiven parties, um, then we
can have some real conversation.
And so I would actually put thismore, and I know this sounds sad
for those of you who are whohave been hurt intentionally,
have been sinned against, but Iwould still say it starts with
you.
(26:28):
It starts with you going back toGod the Father and receiving
God's forgiveness for whatwhether not even necessarily for
the situation that that you mayhave in your head.
But you have been greatlyforgiven.
And when you receive that andyou believe that, then you
understand it's your call toforgive others.
Doesn't make it easy.
(26:49):
Still really challenging, but itis what we're called to do.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Seth referred a lot to taking being a taker in this.
And I really liked how he kindof wrapped up at the end and he
talked about Jesus as a takerand he takes our debts, he takes
our grudges, he takesmanipulations, and he takes our
failure.
And he does that through hisdeath on the cross, takes it all
up there with him and gets ridof it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:11):
Yeah, my my son Nathan wrote a post-it note.
He's trying to work work thisout in his favor.
And so he said, if giving equalswinning and taking equals
losing, then if I give you theopportunity to give me something
and I take, then I you wouldultimately win in the end.
He's got a whole equation onhere of essentially how he can
(27:31):
be a taker and still win.
I did not follow that on thespinning.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
His wheels are spinning.
I encourage free thinking.
SPEAKER_03 (27:41):
He's he's gonna probably minor in philosophy.
So these are the sorts ofthings.
If giving is winning and takingis losing, then Tyler, if I give
you an opportunity to give by metaking, then ultimately you
would win.
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
Yes, it reminds me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
But I could counter that you are not really a taker
if you are giving theopportunity.
Then technically you are agiver.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
It reminds me of my cousin who, when after learning
the golden rule at Sundayschool, I think she was five or
six years old.
She then goes to the playgroundthe next day and she gets in
trouble because she punchedanother kid on the playground.
And when the principal said, Oh,honey, why did you do that?
And she said, Well, we learnedthe golden rule in church
(28:29):
yesterday, and so he must havereally deserved it.
I'm like, Oh weaponizing theplayground.
Exactly, exactly.
Like that must be how he wantedto be treated because that's how
he treated me.
One way of doing it.
Oh, it's good.
SPEAKER_00 (28:45):
Okay, so um, the phrase forgiveness is a must,
but trust takes time to adjustcomes up in this sermon.
How can this principle beapplied in relationships outside
of the family, like friends andcoworkers?
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
First of all, a three-part rhyme, props to you,
Pastor Seth Flick.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Forgiveness is a must, but trust takes time to
adjust.
SPEAKER_02 (29:07):
That's right.
It's good.
So how how it applies torelationships outside of the
family?
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Yeah.
You know, I we we we talkedabout this a little earlier, but
I I this really does go to theconversation around boundaries,
which um is really easy to talkabout in the abstract, but very
difficult to live outpractically.
Um, and so you know, an exampleof a boundary would be um if
someone has has um made it madepromises to you over and over
(29:36):
and over again and they keepbreaking them, um, then you
would set up some sort ofboundary of like, um, I I'm you
know, I'm not gonna talk to youon the phone, for example, if
you're going to raise yourvoice.
And if you raise your voice, I'mjust gonna hang up.
And then when you're ready totalk, we'll hang out.
That's why you said that to meyesterday.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
That was good.
It was a good boundary.
Now I get it.
Sorry, I was pretty passionate.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
It's exactly right.
When you're ready to calm down,Zach, we'll talk again.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Wow.
Let me go get one of the corecounselors and we can work
through this more.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Right.
Um, and the way the Seth framedis so perfect because we're not
given an option of whether weshould forgive.
Like Jesus just makes it really,really clear.
Um, and but then to not but thento give some space to say that
this does not mean that you haveto go back to where everything
(30:28):
was.
It is fine for you to haveboundaries and to allow trust to
rebuild.
And it's also kind of on thisside of heaven, it's okay if
trust doesn't rebuild.
You're still called to forgive.
It's actually commanded toforgive, um, but we're we're
still sinful humans on this sideof eternity.
SPEAKER_03 (30:49):
Yeah, and I and I think it it gets back at like
kind of the twofold part of whatforgiveness is, right?
So there's there's a really twoactions.
There's a canceling of the debt,and then there's the stopping of
the feeling of anger orresentment or revenge or
whatever.
And I think for a lot of people,the canceling of the debt, as
hard as it may be, it that iskind of like a one-time action,
(31:09):
you know.
If I if I steal from you, um andI and I, I don't know, if I
stole your car, Tyler.
SPEAKER_02 (31:17):
Man, a lot of offenses from against the city.
SPEAKER_03 (31:19):
And I and I and I ruined it, I wrecked it, right?
Like you paid for that.
Like that like I'm now that's aone-time action, it's done, but
then you would have a lot ofanger, resentment, I would
think, towards me.
And and so that's morechallenging, though, is that
working out.
That's the thing that I thinktakes that time to adjust.
It's like it's not a you know,overnight flip flip the switch
(31:42):
sort of thing.
It's uh it does take time.
And it and you're right when yousaid it's not everything's gonna
be perfectly settled on thisside of eternity.
Not everything has to return tothe way it was.
But I'm better, I'm better whensomeone has harmed me if I'm
able to forgive that person.
I'm living in freedom.
And and that, and that's greatfor me.
(32:04):
And I think we all need to getto that point.
That's what, by the grace ofGod, we all have the opportunity
to be free.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
Um, uh I really enjoy Brene Brown.
And she does a thing with herown kids when she teaches them
about trust called the marblejar.
And she talks about everybodythat you know has a marble jar.
And every time that you investin that relationship and they
return it with, you know, trustbeing contained, um, then they
earn a marble.
So slowly their marble jar fillsup.
(32:32):
Um, but one day her daughtercame home and she had told a
friend something in confidence,and that friend had told the
whole class, and they werelaughing and, you know,
horribly.
Um, her daughter was mortified.
And so she said, Well, thatfriend lost all their marbles in
the marble jar.
You didn't take the jar away.
You weren't like completelywalking away from the
friendship, but that was maybenot the first person you were
(32:53):
gonna choose to put that trustin.
And I like that image of, okay,we we earn those marbles.
And we may dump out the marblesor we may forgive other people
losing their marbles and we'regonna make that choice to trust
them again.
But I liked that imagery of yougotta have your marbles.
I am also of the age where Ifeel like sometimes I'm losing
(33:15):
my marbles.
So, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
I was just thinking, like, was that a planned pun?
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
Yeah, Dina.
No.
Oh, did that bump bump righthere?
Tip your waitresses.
All right.
So as we wrap up today, what areyour final takeaways from this
message?
SPEAKER_02 (33:31):
Yeah, I'm just really excited to continue in
the story of Jacob over thesenext couple weeks, and
especially leading to Christmas,where there's so many additional
family things, like just leaninginto this series uh to try and
be better, healthier familiestogether.
SPEAKER_03 (33:45):
Yeah, two pieces.
Number one would be let's notavoid conflict when we have it.
And that's this is with anybody,but especially in the family.
Let's let's figure out a waywhere we can have a healthy
conversation around it and anduh understand one another and
hear their story and all thatgood stuff.
So let's not avoid conflict.
Number two would be Seth's thentwo sermon series.
I'm wondering if he can preachanything outside of a television
(34:05):
series.
Because his first one waspardoned this interruption,
which was a ploy off of an ESPNshow.
Now we're doing a family matterseries.
I think Seth's a one-trick pony.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
That I think that's a fair.
SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
And so I'm challenging Seth in 2026 to see
if he has a sermon series that'snot related to a TV show.
And if not, that's okay.
He's doing great.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
But you know, I was just gonna say, like, what does
that challenge come with?
That means that you just want topreach more when he doesn't come
up with that.
SPEAKER_03 (34:32):
No, I just I've just I just have noticed two
television.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Okay.
What have you had a televisionreference recently in your
sermon series?
SPEAKER_03 (34:40):
I have done, I have actually done a series called
Family Matters in Florida.
Which church hasn't done for thelot of churches that have done
Family Matters?
I'm totally joking.
So that's amazing, super fun.
And let's see if we can preach anon-television show.
SPEAKER_02 (34:54):
If he were here right now, Zach, he might
respond and say, Zach, can youpreach anything other than a
40-day challenge?
Like you could say that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Ooh, that's challenging.
SPEAKER_03 (35:02):
That's a challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
The gauntlet is dropped.
SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:05):
Well, there may be a lot of people.
Bring it on, Zach.
It's not you.
SPEAKER_03 (35:07):
It sounds like you and I got to talk, man.
We got some conflict.
SPEAKER_00 (35:10):
We may have pastoral rivalry to go through.
SPEAKER_03 (35:13):
Zach, you're raising your voice in the podcast again.
SPEAKER_00 (35:16):
I'm gonna turn it back.
SPEAKER_03 (35:16):
I'll have you as a guest if you continue.
SPEAKER_00 (35:20):
All right.
Well, we are gonna look forwardto our next week of Family
Matters.
And until then, let's keepliving our faith beyond Sunday.
Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the King of Kings
podcast where we dive a littlebit deeper into our message
series and see what we're takingBeyond Sunday.
My name is Dina Newsome, and Iam excited to have some
wonderful gentlemen with metoday.
That's a title, guys.
You got to step it up.
Gentlemen.
SPEAKER_03 (00:19):
Yeah, I'm always curious.
You do an adjective and then uha word after.
So today was wonderfulgentlemen.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Wonderful gentlemen.
I'll take it.
SPEAKER_03 (00:26):
I'm Zach, and this is I'm Tyler.
SPEAKER_00 (00:29):
Thanks for being here today, guys.
We're happy to.
SPEAKER_03 (00:32):
Well, actually, I've learned in counseling I should
talk for myself and not others.
I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (00:37):
It just so happens.
I am also happy to be here.
SPEAKER_00 (00:40):
It also happens that I am happy to be here.
So much joy.
Three peas in a pod.
Okay, so I don't know if youguys know this.
Today is national, no,international.
SPEAKER_03 (00:52):
Oh, international.
SPEAKER_00 (00:54):
Christmas card day.
So my question for you is yourfamily a Christmas card family?
And are you like where you sendout Christmas cards?
Do you do like the little letteror the summary thing or digital
cards?
Now some people do digital orno, not at all.
SPEAKER_02 (01:10):
Our family's shaking his head.
Our family is a no, not becausewe're opposed to it or anything,
but man, like I've been inministry for 12 years.
The first 11 and a half of thosewas a full-time worship role.
And like you don't, you barelysleep between the month, between
Thanksgiving and Christmas witheverything going on.
And it's never been somethingthat Aaliyah's been like, man,
(01:30):
let's get the family picturedone.
So we gladly receive others.
And and then people can find uson social media.
They can knock on our door inFremont.
We're we're here, we're smiling.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
That's interesting.
I always thought worship leadershad a ton of time.
So I wasn't sure how they filledtheir week outside of looking at
like skinny jeans and latesttrends.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Yeah, that that would define me to a tease act.
SPEAKER_03 (01:51):
Uh, we've we've gotten more and more minimized
over the year.
When we were early married, itfelt like we had the pictures
with the letter.
Lots of time went into it.
Now uh I we sent out a picturelast year.
I don't even think we did thatthis year.
Typically, Allison's been thechampion of it.
So it's really whatever she's inthe mood for.
And I'm like, cool, great.
(02:12):
I'll write it.
I enjoy writing it, or I didenjoy writing it.
My favorite was is though our mybrother-in-law, who's our campus
director here, Peter Bay.
He and my sister Carista, theysend out a Christmas card that
has their family photo and theyhave a spot the difference.
So there's the nice familyphoto, and then there's the next
photo right next to it, whichhas like five, six, seven, eight
(02:34):
differences, and you got to findwhat they are.
SPEAKER_02 (02:35):
But very minute differences.
It's not even all very hard.
It's not even yes.
SPEAKER_03 (02:39):
It's it's my it's the one I look at everybody's
card, and I'm so grateful foreverybody that sends me the
card.
I read every letter, every wordfrom every letter.
But my favorite thing to receiveis their family phone.
SPEAKER_02 (02:54):
And and to Peter's credit, like he's created this
brand and expectation.
Yeah, it's very, very wellmarketed.
He's created brand loyalty,customer loyalty.
Well done, Peter and Christa.
SPEAKER_03 (03:06):
And the good news for every Beyond Sunday listener
out there, email Peter atkingofkings.org and you can get
a Christmas card from Peter andhis family this year.
SPEAKER_00 (03:16):
It's it's not only the picture though, it's the
letter where Peter writes hiscreative imaginative and then
Carista corrects it and says,No, it wasn't really X amount of
whatever or my sister who isblunt and truthful and gives it
to you straight.
SPEAKER_03 (03:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
It's a perfect reflection of their
personalities.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
That is.
That's a that's Peter.
Wow.
SPEAKER_03 (03:37):
Family's fun, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00 (03:41):
Did you know that Christmas cards were invented as
a marketing ploy?
SPEAKER_02 (03:44):
Tell us more.
SPEAKER_00 (03:45):
They were in 1843, Sir Henry Cole, who was part of
the British civil service,created the first um Christmas,
modern day Christmas card topromote the newly formed British
postal system.
He wanted something that peoplecould mail.
So he thought this was somethingto do.
(04:06):
I thought that was interesting.
SPEAKER_03 (04:07):
And now it just gums up our U.S.
Postal Service so thateverything else is delayed.
SPEAKER_00 (04:13):
All right.
So we started a new sermonseries this week called Family
Matters, and Family Can BeTricky, uncomfortable,
wonderful.
All of those great um umadjectives.
And Seth Flick, Pastor SethFlick started us off with this.
So from this first message, whatare you guys taking beyond
Sunday?
What stuck with you?
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
For me, it was uh probably what stuck with me is
probably his sticky statement.
Uh, forgiveness is a must andtrust takes time to adjust.
There's a lot to unpack there,which I'm sure we'll do a little
bit of, but that's the thing I'mtaking beyond Sunday.
SPEAKER_02 (04:48):
Yeah, what I took beyond Sunday, uh we'll we'll
get into the story of Jacob andEsau, but it what was what's so
fascinating is like it was 20years of family estrangement
based on two moments.
Like how significant momentsare.
And then if we don't pursuereconciliation, look at all the
consequence that can come on theback end.
(05:09):
And it was two relativelyeveryday moments.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Yeah, I really liked he made the statement avoidance
and secrecy doesn't solve aproblem, it only delays the
consequences and how that playedout in Jacob and Isa.
Sorry.
Okay, so to start out, he wastalking about Family Matters,
the sitcom with Urkel,everyone's favorite.
Did I do that?
SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
He did a really good job doing the Urkel impression.
Did I do that?
Exactly.
Very, very nasally.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, I'm curious, what were yourfavorite sitcoms from your
childhood?
And how do you remember thattheir lessons stayed with you?
SPEAKER_03 (05:48):
I my favorite was home improvement with Tim Allen.
So fun.
Every week it was funny.
It was Jonathan Taylor Thomas,JTT.
He was like every girl's heartthrob.
Like he was the guy.
Anyway, it was a it was a prettyfunny show that my family sat
around and watched.
It was it was pretty sweet.
And and kind of ironic becauseI'm the like the probably why I
(06:10):
related to it and my why myfamily related to it is because
we're not very handy ormaintenance is not really our
strength.
SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
Not a Tim the Tool Time Taylor.
SPEAKER_03 (06:19):
Well, here's the Tim the Tool Man Taylor, but Tim's
making all these mistakes.
It's like I feel like, yeah,that's me.
Except somehow he got the job ofbeing a tool man guy.
SPEAKER_02 (06:27):
Well, he's a he was a TV host.
SPEAKER_03 (06:29):
Yeah, and and we had a fence growing up, which if you
remember the neighbor wasWilson, and you never got to see
his face.
Only you don't you only get thewisdom, you know, across the
fence from Wilson.
And our fence, there was a guythat I feel like was that.
We never really saw his face.
He was just there.
He didn't give us wisdom, but wecalled him Wilson.
I don't know if that I don'tknow what his name was.
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Yeah.
So the show that came to mymind, and I think Seth even
referenced it in the TJF lineupwas Full House.
And uh, and so you can justimagine I can just still see
that San Francisco set with theblue couch in the living room,
and you had what Danny as thedad and Jesse as the uncle and
(07:10):
then Joey was like the friendadopted uncle.
Does that sound right?
Yeah.
Sure.
But Seth mentioned, he's like,you know, these sitcoms, they
they have some sort of conflictand they resolve within 20 to 22
to 24 minutes.
And Full House had this amazingformula that within the last two
minutes, it was always like oneof the dad figures sits down
(07:31):
with the girls and they talk itout and then they hug it out
with all the sappy music behind.
And in terms you asked, like alesson, right?
From it was like hugs, like itwas it's like kind of giving
this like cultural permission oflike, let's be a hugging family.
This is a sweet show.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
I like that.
SPEAKER_03 (07:49):
Big Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen fan there.
I didn't go that far, Zach.
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
He was clear to lay that line.
SPEAKER_02 (07:56):
Michelle was an adorable character though.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
I grew up with the Cosby show when it was still
big.
And um, I that was just what ourfamily watched together.
And what I remember from therewere the parents were always
right.
And I just like to say that as Ibecame a parent, I really missed
that and did not find that valueas much on TV to share with my
(08:20):
children.
Um, so but it is the parentsjust always knew better, always.
SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
Right.
And we still do, kids.
Yes, yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Um, okay, so the biblical focus for this week's
message was talking about thesibling rivalry between Jacob
and Esau and that relationship.
So, does one of you want to kindof summarize what pieces we
talked about this week withthat?
SPEAKER_02 (08:47):
I'll attempt and then Zach can clean any clean up
any.
SPEAKER_03 (08:50):
No, this is great.
Poor Tyler, I don't know ifpeople know this, is going to
seminary and I get to serve ashis supervisor, which feels
ridiculous.
And so this is fun.
This is me supervising you anduh seminary.
You can actually just listenlive to see how well he's doing.
SPEAKER_02 (09:05):
There you go.
Okay, pressure's on.
Um, all right.
So we're we're in Genesis 27.
So wrong 28.
I'm just kidding.
So Isaac is the kind of son ofblessing from Abraham,
miraculous blessing, miraculousbirth.
And then he has these two uh twokids with Rebecca, um, Esau and
(09:27):
Jacob, and they are like rivalsfrom birth, like uh where Jacob
is like pulling at Esau's heel,even coming out of the birth
canal.
Um, and so Seth, almost in likea treating it as if it were a TV
sitcom as he was going throughthe story, um, highlighted these
two kind of moments where Jacobis described as a taker.
(09:50):
And like, I don't think anythinghe said was incorrect.
Like he really did, he took thebirthright from Esau, and like
Esau was willing to sell hisbirthright because he was
hungry.
It must have been a very goodpot of soup.
SPEAKER_03 (10:03):
Yeah, my my actual takeaway now that I think about
it is I think lentil stew, let'sjust forget lentil stew forever.
It's never done good foranybody, it doesn't taste good,
it ruined this guy's life.
Yeah, and so that would be mytakeaway.
Go ahead.
You're doing great.
SPEAKER_02 (10:19):
Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (10:20):
I needed a little bit of a little bit of a little
bit of a that was the theologythat I really needed to give
that theological point.
SPEAKER_02 (10:25):
It's good, it's good.
Um, so yeah, so so Jacob takesthe birthright, kind of trades
the birthright because Esau's inthis vulnerable state because
he's so hungry.
Um, and so that means that Jacobis now kind of takes his place
in the messianic line.
He's now representing his familyum as the head of the household.
And then later on, Jacob stealsum Esau's blessing.
(10:48):
And so that familiar story whereum Isaac can't see see very
well.
And so uh Rebecca has this crazyidea.
It's like, oh, well, let's let'sput put kind of the the the what
was it sheep sheep's wall?
What was it on the heart?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So then Isaac can't he can'ttotally tell, but he's like, oh,
this kind of smells like Esau,it feels like Esau.
So he's like, I'm gonna give himthe blessing.
(11:09):
And then this so sad story iswhen Esau comes back in and he's
like, Father, have you notreserved a blessing for me?
And the answer is no.
And so, because of that, you canimagine the resentment that Esau
has towards his brother, who isnow just taken and taken and
taken.
Um, and then Jacob is encouragedto flee.
(11:31):
Uh, I think we're actually goingto get into that story this this
coming week.
Um, and then 20 years passbefore this reconciliation
moment.
And so Seth was able to kind ofnavigate each of these moments
and draw out the sibling rivalryaspect and where we're prone to
do it, givers, takers, um, andthen hopefully pursue
reconciliation.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
Well done.
unknown (11:54):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Good job.
SPEAKER_03 (11:55):
That's only one course out of 16 completed at
the seminary.
Can you imagine?
SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
After 16 classes, I might be able to summarize
things quicker.
Maybe that's what I'll getbetter at.
SPEAKER_03 (12:07):
That was great.
You did great.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Okay.
So, in looking at therelationship between Jacob and
Eesu, how does this story helpus understand sibling rivalry
and really more so familydynamics in today's culture?
SPEAKER_03 (12:21):
Yeah, and I and I know that the coming week will
be focused on sort of parentsand um things like that.
How do we how do we trustparents or when you know parents
are making decisions or evenmake mistakes, which does happen
actually, kids, we do makemistakes, we don't know
everything.
But but a part a big part of therivalry, it's kind of a bummer
because like, yeah, Jacob andEsau are the ones we're talking
about, but actually it kind ofstemmed as well from the
(12:44):
parents.
Like they each picked theirfavorites and they kind of put
them at odds with one another,which is super challenging and
frustrating from the verybeginning.
And I think the big piece Ipicked up from Seth in the
sermon is just how different uhparenting styles or uh not even
just parenting, but uh differentstyles of when there's conflict,
(13:06):
there's uh a lot of unhealthyways to not resolve conflict.
And one of them is to fight,which is what Esau wanted to do.
Another one was right, flight,which is what Jacob did.
And when we have issue or whensomething wrong happens, when
it's in especially if it's inour family, we we've got to come
(13:27):
to a place where we're gonnahave conflict and we've got to
figure out healthier ways thatwe're gonna resolve this and not
just avoid it, which is uh areal temptation and and easy and
comfortable.
But it it it it lingers and itcreates, in their case, two
decades that they lost that theycould have who knows what would
(13:47):
have happened in those years andwhat their relationship could
have looked like.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
Yeah, so Ephesians 4 uh talks a lot about like unity
in the body of Christ, andthere's a phrase that Paul uses
he says, bearing with oneanother in love.
And I think in some ways it'sactually easier to bear with one
another in love with those thatyou don't live in a house with.
There's something about the kindof proximity of relationship,
(14:14):
and it's like, oh, like we'renot getting away from each other
that can actually make thingsharder.
And so whether that's in amarriage situation or a
parenting situation, or in thiscase, a sibling situation, like
growing, growing up, my mybrother's four years older than
me, my sister's six years olderthan me, and like and if Corey's
listening to this podcast, Idon't think he would disagree.
(14:36):
Like, we just didn't get alonggrowing up, and it's like no
matter what my parents did, likeit just there was it was it was
tough.
And I'm happy to say that youknow, he went off to college.
I kind of grew up a little bit,and now he's like one of my best
friends.
But there's just something aboutbeing together and especially
being siblings, it's justfraught with difficulty.
(14:58):
And so then the question is, howare we gonna deal with this in a
way that's not destructive?
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
I have twin brothers.
They're four and a half yearsolder than me.
And I always thought that theywere the best of friends and you
know, totally against me.
But as it turns out, when Ithink back about our growing up,
one of my brothers I got alongwith all the time.
And the other one, we foughtlike cats and dogs all the time.
(15:24):
And I don't know what it wasabout that relationship that
just poke, poke, poke.
But I would say now I am closerprobably to the one that I
fought with more than I am tothe one that got along with both
of us better.
unknown (15:38):
Interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (15:39):
I'm I'm fascinated at sibling relationships.
I'm fascinated at how Godcreates us so uniquely and how
those relationships fittogether, but also at how we um
how siblings can help each othergrow.
Like those siblings to me areyour first where you learn about
trust, you know, or where youlearn about cooperation, or you
(15:59):
learn about forgiveness.
Like I think more so even thanyour parents, it's your siblings
that you learn a little bit moreabout that because you you love
them or hate them at any moment,at any day.
SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
Yeah, and and it is, it's the ones you're practicing,
even if your parents say it, youneed to say I'm sorry.
You need to say I'm sorry, oryou will have XYZ happen.
And so I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
That's that's where we're so heartfelt.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
Whatever, but it's where we first learn to say
those words.
And it and it's just so muchlife on life.
And and I do, I think that it'sreally easy to get competitive
and to have rivalries, andespecially in the day of age we
live in, uh, it's very easy tocompare.
And and it's it's reallychallenging uh to grow up, you
(16:47):
know, as a young person intoday's world and uh have many
different expectations placed onyou.
And if you have a sibling thatis successful, um then that's a
threat to you and or it couldbe, and and so it's really hard.
And and when we compare oneanother, and you know, there's
(17:09):
all this birth order stuff offirst child, middle child.
I'm a middle child, so I'mbasically forgotten in my
family.
So the whole everything I do inlife is just to try to prove to
my parents that I'm still here,you know.
Um, but no, everybody's gotdifferent whatever with their
birth order.
There's there's so manydynamics, and some of it's true,
some of it's generalized,obviously, but um, but it it
(17:30):
really is challenging when youknow so-and-so gets more
attention, or so-and-so gets theaward, or so-and-so is getting
the attention and they're andbut they're get like getting in
trouble to in order to get theparents' attention.
So it's all these weird thingsat play, but you're right,
Tyler.
It's like we're still here andwe're still family, so we've
kind of got to figure it out.
SPEAKER_02 (17:52):
So the other thing as we think about the Bible,
like siblings are all over theBible and stories of siblings.
So one, it's just this almostlike, thank you, Lord, that the
scriptures that you've given usare actually reflective of real
life and not this like idealizedsort of things like, oh yeah,
(18:13):
there was legit anger.
Esau wanted to kill Jacob.
That's not like that isreflecting Esau's real reality.
And then if you fast forward tothe New Testament, so much of
what happens in the Jacob-Esaurelationship is seen in Luke 15
and the parable of the prodigalson, where you have an older
brother, you have a youngerbrother, you have comparison,
like Zach just said, you evenhave that moment where right,
(18:36):
like the father is running andthere's the reconciliation.
Um, that and that's like theEsau-Jacob thing at the end.
Um, but for for us to actuallygrow spiritually through the
whole story of the Bible, Iguess that could be another
thing that I took away fromSunday is seeing that fun
connection in between Old NewTestament.
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
Yeah, I can't say I enjoy the stories like this, but
I enjoy that um it seems likepeople that are written about in
the Bible are not on a pedestaland unbeknownst to struggles and
rivalries and hurtful actions.
And so then it makes me feelless out of place when those
(19:17):
things happen in my life.
SPEAKER_03 (19:19):
Well, and I I I feel like there's a lot of folks that
Jacob's such a big name in theBible that I think a lot of
people associate really goodthings with him.
Yes.
Uh his name was changed toIsrael, right?
And he would have 12 sons, andhe would also, by the way, not
learn from his parents'mistakes.
He would choose favorites.
Got him into a whole lot oftrouble.
Jacob is a jerk.
(19:42):
Like honestly, he re there'smultiple chapters of this guy's
story.
Not a lot of Bible charactersget multiple chapters on them.
And and it's a challenge to findanything worthwhile for Jacob.
Like he's a punk.
Esau's kind of uh kind of seenon the outside and maybe in, you
know.
For people that don't know theirBible enough, might seem like
(20:02):
kind of the the maybe because hewasn't chosen or or whatnot, as
and his name wasn't changed toIsrael.
Uh Esau's a little bit more of alikable character in the story,
if I'm honest with you, thanJacob was.
Yeah.
And they have this beautifulreunion 20 years later.
And it's what's really neatabout this whole thing, which
(20:23):
gets to, you know, Seth's pointabout forgiveness, is Jacob was
so fearful of seeing Esau even20 years later.
And when they met, Esau met himwith this incredible grace and
this incredible forgiveness.
And that's 20 years later.
We they didn't speak.
So we don't know that, yeah, hewanted to kill him at first, and
you would too, if your brotherdid all these crappy things to
(20:45):
you.
But like at some point, Esaucame to terms with it and
forgave his brother.
And I would argue that's whatwhy forgiveness is so important
for us, is even if it doesn'tchange the other person, you
need that for yourself.
Like by you not by you notforgiving someone, a lot of
(21:05):
times we think that person'spaying for that.
They're not.
You're the one that's paying forthat.
Esau actually was free.
Whereas Jacob, the one that gotaway with it, he was the one
that was imprisoned.
So anyway, that was kind of atangent, but Jacob's a jerk.
That was my point.
SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
Well, yeah, Dina, I don't know.
This is I don't know whatdirection this podcast is going,
but it's great.
Um one like in in the Psalms,Yahweh is referred to as the God
of Jacob.
I know, isn't that cool?
Like that he's he's not, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (21:40):
Yeah, what do you take from that?
SPEAKER_02 (21:41):
Like he's the god, he's the god who who embraces
sinners and works redemptionthrough I was about to say
broken situations, but that'slike screwy situations, like
deception.
God God is the god over sinnerswho deceive, not because we
deserve it, but because he lovesus so much.
Um to to be in a spot like Esauand Jacob, how often are we
(22:09):
caught in like a vainimagination wondering what the
other person thinks?
Right.
So Jacob for those 20 years, heknew he knows that Esau wanted
to destroy him.
And then he's just left up tohis own vain imagination.
And and if we're not careful,like our flesh and the devil
(22:29):
will take that and all the lifethat was lost because of it.
And so when we talk about thevalue of speaking words of
forgiveness, we can setourselves free and we can set
other people free in theredemption of Jesus.
Um, and even back to family, youguys, Zach, you referenced this
earlier, but forcing kids to sayI'm sorry, right?
(22:52):
As begrudging as they would.
I think it's also really, reallyhealthy for parents to apologize
to kids and model thatconfession and forgiveness.
SPEAKER_00 (23:03):
That is a game changer for kids.
SPEAKER_02 (23:05):
Um, because then you are you are saying, I'm not, I'm
I'm not gonna hold myselfhostage and I'm not gonna hold
you hostage of what I don't wantyou to be left wondering what I
think of you.
Um and yeah, it's 20 years.
It's a long time.
unknown (23:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
I think it was really valuable Seth brought up
later um about the point offorgiving someone doesn't mean
that you're allowing them tocontinue mistreatment also.
And I think that comes up a lottoday in conversations about
people, you know, cutting peopleout of their life or or um just
estranging people, that you canforgive someone and you're
(23:42):
letting that go for yourself,but you don't have to continue
to allow them to repeat thetreatment that was causing that
hurt in the in the beginning.
SPEAKER_03 (23:51):
Yeah, it doesn't mean that there all the
consequences get removed andthat everything goes back to
what it was.
SPEAKER_00 (23:57):
Yeah.
For sure.
Like you said, it's really aboutyou and not about them.
unknown (24:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:01):
So the sermon highlights the importance of
forgiveness in resolving familyconflicts.
What do you think are somebarriers that prevent family
members from reaching the pointof forgiveness?
And how do we try to overcomethose?
SPEAKER_02 (24:16):
Yeah.
I mean, the the first one, it'sprobably most obvious, is our
own pride.
Yeah.
It's really, really hard to getpast like that that step of
humility.
Like that is the first step.
But then I also think it it'syou rarely is it so one-sided
where it's usually in thesesorts of situations that there's
(24:38):
sibling rivalry, there'ssomething on each side.
There's there's some level ofoffense on each side.
And so there can be this fear ofhumility that then is this is
that person gonna weaponize itagainst me if they don't also
meet me in humility, and thenthey don't acknowledge I
acknowledge my wrong, they don'tacknowledge their wrong, like
(24:58):
that kind of sense of fairness.
Does that resonate with youguys?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
That's good.
SPEAKER_03 (25:03):
Yeah, I I think so.
Yeah.
I mean, you look at a pie graph,like it's not, I shouldn't say
ever, but I would say it'srarely ever 100% your fault, 0%
mine, or vice versa.
Like, even if there's 1%, like Igotta own my the 1%.
But I go back to something thatI I think I really learned in
the process of writing anddelivering forgiving challenge
(25:24):
years ago.
And every room I've ever beenin, I ask, who do you have who's
it harder to forgive, yourselfor someone else?
And it's about 80 to 90 percentthat say themselves.
So there's some real things thatneed to be tackled amongst
friends, siblings, parents,kids, all that stuff is very
(25:44):
real.
But I go back to the the ideaand the connection that Jesus
continually makes that we arecalled to forgive others, but
nearly any time Jesus ever talksabout forgiving others, he first
talks about receivingforgiveness.
And so a forgiven person is aforgiving person.
And so I I feel when we try tobring two parties to the table
(26:07):
to reconcile, if we're bringingtwo broken parties, that's going
to be challenging.
But if we're bringing twoforgiven parties, um, then we
can have some real conversation.
And so I would actually put thismore, and I know this sounds sad
for those of you who are whohave been hurt intentionally,
have been sinned against, but Iwould still say it starts with
you.
(26:28):
It starts with you going back toGod the Father and receiving
God's forgiveness for whatwhether not even necessarily for
the situation that that you mayhave in your head.
But you have been greatlyforgiven.
And when you receive that andyou believe that, then you
understand it's your call toforgive others.
Doesn't make it easy.
(26:49):
Still really challenging, but itis what we're called to do.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Seth referred a lot to taking being a taker in this.
And I really liked how he kindof wrapped up at the end and he
talked about Jesus as a takerand he takes our debts, he takes
our grudges, he takesmanipulations, and he takes our
failure.
And he does that through hisdeath on the cross, takes it all
up there with him and gets ridof it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:11):
Yeah, my my son Nathan wrote a post-it note.
He's trying to work work thisout in his favor.
And so he said, if giving equalswinning and taking equals
losing, then if I give you theopportunity to give me something
and I take, then I you wouldultimately win in the end.
He's got a whole equation onhere of essentially how he can
(27:31):
be a taker and still win.
I did not follow that on thespinning.
SPEAKER_00 (27:37):
His wheels are spinning.
I encourage free thinking.
SPEAKER_03 (27:41):
He's he's gonna probably minor in philosophy.
So these are the sorts ofthings.
If giving is winning and takingis losing, then Tyler, if I give
you an opportunity to give by metaking, then ultimately you
would win.
SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
Yes, it reminds me.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
But I could counter that you are not really a taker
if you are giving theopportunity.
Then technically you are agiver.
SPEAKER_02 (28:08):
It reminds me of my cousin who, when after learning
the golden rule at Sundayschool, I think she was five or
six years old.
She then goes to the playgroundthe next day and she gets in
trouble because she punchedanother kid on the playground.
And when the principal said, Oh,honey, why did you do that?
And she said, Well, we learnedthe golden rule in church
(28:29):
yesterday, and so he must havereally deserved it.
I'm like, Oh weaponizing theplayground.
Exactly, exactly.
Like that must be how he wantedto be treated because that's how
he treated me.
One way of doing it.
Oh, it's good.
SPEAKER_00 (28:45):
Okay, so um, the phrase forgiveness is a must,
but trust takes time to adjustcomes up in this sermon.
How can this principle beapplied in relationships outside
of the family, like friends andcoworkers?
SPEAKER_02 (28:59):
First of all, a three-part rhyme, props to you,
Pastor Seth Flick.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
Forgiveness is a must, but trust takes time to
adjust.
SPEAKER_02 (29:07):
That's right.
It's good.
So how how it applies torelationships outside of the
family?
SPEAKER_00 (29:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (29:12):
Yeah.
You know, I we we we talkedabout this a little earlier, but
I I this really does go to theconversation around boundaries,
which um is really easy to talkabout in the abstract, but very
difficult to live outpractically.
Um, and so you know, an exampleof a boundary would be um if
someone has has um made it madepromises to you over and over
(29:36):
and over again and they keepbreaking them, um, then you
would set up some sort ofboundary of like, um, I I'm you
know, I'm not gonna talk to youon the phone, for example, if
you're going to raise yourvoice.
And if you raise your voice, I'mjust gonna hang up.
And then when you're ready totalk, we'll hang out.
That's why you said that to meyesterday.
SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
That was good.
It was a good boundary.
Now I get it.
Sorry, I was pretty passionate.
SPEAKER_02 (29:57):
It's exactly right.
When you're ready to calm down,Zach, we'll talk again.
SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Wow.
Let me go get one of the corecounselors and we can work
through this more.
SPEAKER_02 (30:07):
Right.
Um, and the way the Seth framedis so perfect because we're not
given an option of whether weshould forgive.
Like Jesus just makes it really,really clear.
Um, and but then to not but thento give some space to say that
this does not mean that you haveto go back to where everything
(30:28):
was.
It is fine for you to haveboundaries and to allow trust to
rebuild.
And it's also kind of on thisside of heaven, it's okay if
trust doesn't rebuild.
You're still called to forgive.
It's actually commanded toforgive, um, but we're we're
still sinful humans on this sideof eternity.
SPEAKER_03 (30:49):
Yeah, and I and I think it it gets back at like
kind of the twofold part of whatforgiveness is, right?
So there's there's a really twoactions.
There's a canceling of the debt,and then there's the stopping of
the feeling of anger orresentment or revenge or
whatever.
And I think for a lot of people,the canceling of the debt, as
hard as it may be, it that iskind of like a one-time action,
(31:09):
you know.
If I if I steal from you, um andI and I, I don't know, if I
stole your car, Tyler.
SPEAKER_02 (31:17):
Man, a lot of offenses from against the city.
SPEAKER_03 (31:19):
And I and I and I ruined it, I wrecked it, right?
Like you paid for that.
Like that like I'm now that's aone-time action, it's done, but
then you would have a lot ofanger, resentment, I would
think, towards me.
And and so that's morechallenging, though, is that
working out.
That's the thing that I thinktakes that time to adjust.
It's like it's not a you know,overnight flip flip the switch
(31:42):
sort of thing.
It's uh it does take time.
And it and you're right when yousaid it's not everything's gonna
be perfectly settled on thisside of eternity.
Not everything has to return tothe way it was.
But I'm better, I'm better whensomeone has harmed me if I'm
able to forgive that person.
I'm living in freedom.
And and that, and that's greatfor me.
(32:04):
And I think we all need to getto that point.
That's what, by the grace ofGod, we all have the opportunity
to be free.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
Um, uh I really enjoy Brene Brown.
And she does a thing with herown kids when she teaches them
about trust called the marblejar.
And she talks about everybodythat you know has a marble jar.
And every time that you investin that relationship and they
return it with, you know, trustbeing contained, um, then they
earn a marble.
So slowly their marble jar fillsup.
(32:32):
Um, but one day her daughtercame home and she had told a
friend something in confidence,and that friend had told the
whole class, and they werelaughing and, you know,
horribly.
Um, her daughter was mortified.
And so she said, Well, thatfriend lost all their marbles in
the marble jar.
You didn't take the jar away.
You weren't like completelywalking away from the
friendship, but that was maybenot the first person you were
(32:53):
gonna choose to put that trustin.
And I like that image of, okay,we we earn those marbles.
And we may dump out the marblesor we may forgive other people
losing their marbles and we'regonna make that choice to trust
them again.
But I liked that imagery of yougotta have your marbles.
I am also of the age where Ifeel like sometimes I'm losing
(33:15):
my marbles.
So, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
I was just thinking, like, was that a planned pun?
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
Yeah, Dina.
No.
Oh, did that bump bump righthere?
Tip your waitresses.
All right.
So as we wrap up today, what areyour final takeaways from this
message?
SPEAKER_02 (33:31):
Yeah, I'm just really excited to continue in
the story of Jacob over thesenext couple weeks, and
especially leading to Christmas,where there's so many additional
family things, like just leaninginto this series uh to try and
be better, healthier familiestogether.
SPEAKER_03 (33:45):
Yeah, two pieces.
Number one would be let's notavoid conflict when we have it.
And that's this is with anybody,but especially in the family.
Let's let's figure out a waywhere we can have a healthy
conversation around it and anduh understand one another and
hear their story and all thatgood stuff.
So let's not avoid conflict.
Number two would be Seth's thentwo sermon series.
I'm wondering if he can preachanything outside of a television
(34:05):
series.
Because his first one waspardoned this interruption,
which was a ploy off of an ESPNshow.
Now we're doing a family matterseries.
I think Seth's a one-trick pony.
SPEAKER_02 (34:14):
That I think that's a fair.
SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
And so I'm challenging Seth in 2026 to see
if he has a sermon series that'snot related to a TV show.
And if not, that's okay.
He's doing great.
SPEAKER_00 (34:26):
But you know, I was just gonna say, like, what does
that challenge come with?
That means that you just want topreach more when he doesn't come
up with that.
SPEAKER_03 (34:32):
No, I just I've just I just have noticed two
television.
SPEAKER_00 (34:36):
Okay.
What have you had a televisionreference recently in your
sermon series?
SPEAKER_03 (34:40):
I have done, I have actually done a series called
Family Matters in Florida.
Which church hasn't done for thelot of churches that have done
Family Matters?
I'm totally joking.
So that's amazing, super fun.
And let's see if we can preach anon-television show.
SPEAKER_02 (34:54):
If he were here right now, Zach, he might
respond and say, Zach, can youpreach anything other than a
40-day challenge?
Like you could say that.
SPEAKER_00 (35:00):
Ooh, that's challenging.
SPEAKER_03 (35:02):
That's a challenge.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
The gauntlet is dropped.
SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:05):
Well, there may be a lot of people.
Bring it on, Zach.
It's not you.
SPEAKER_03 (35:07):
It sounds like you and I got to talk, man.
We got some conflict.
SPEAKER_00 (35:10):
We may have pastoral rivalry to go through.
SPEAKER_03 (35:13):
Zach, you're raising your voice in the podcast again.
SPEAKER_00 (35:16):
I'm gonna turn it back.
SPEAKER_03 (35:16):
I'll have you as a guest if you continue.
SPEAKER_00 (35:20):
All right.
Well, we are gonna look forwardto our next week of Family
Matters.
And until then, let's keepliving our faith beyond Sunday.
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The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.