March 21, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode of Beyond Sunday, we explore how Jesus shifts discipleship from rule-following to heart transformation through the Sermon on the Mount. Using the metaphor of a house’s framework, we unpack how grace—not performance—shapes our obedience, challenging us to build lives rooted in Christ’s love and character.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the podcast where we
take a look at the sermon seriesof King of Kings and see what
we're taking beyond Sunday.
My name is Dena Newsom and I'mglad you're here with us.
I have some special gueststoday and I'm going to let them
introduce themselves.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Roger Timer, one of the pastors here, and I also
am glad to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Peter Bay campus director for King's Northwest
and, yeah, ready to dive intothis message.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
All right, I don't know if you guys know it, but
this week is National FragranceWeek, so my questions for you to
get us started today, are whatare your favorite smell?
What's your favorite fragranceand what's like a smell that
unlocks the core memory for?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
you?
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, yeah, you got one you want me to start.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
No, you go you go.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
My favorite smell is campfire smell when it's burning
wood, which can be destructionbut can be very pleasant
gathering.
I love campfire smell but mycore memory smell is lilacs.
We had rows of bushes of lilacsin our backyard when I was
growing up.
My mom would collect theflowers and bring them inside
and our whole house would smelllike lilacs and it just makes me
(01:19):
think of my childhood of summerof my childhood, of summer, of
my mom.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I just love that.
Wow, that's cool.
Makes me want to go to yourmemories Because, well, when you
said fragrance, the first thingI thought of is that my
favorite fragrance is whatevercologne my wife gives me to wear
, because her olfactory sensesare so much more acute and I
don't care how I smell that much, but I like it.
(01:56):
When she says oh, I like thatsmell.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
That's a smart man right there.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
But if I were to go with the guy's smell, I'm going
to have to go campfire, becausethat reminds me of especially
even like when it's on yourclothes and you're on a
couple-day backpack trip.
You smell like fun andadventure.
That's what it means to me.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, my favorite smells all deal with food.
So I mean bacon's undefeated,oh yeah, like the vanilla of,
like cinnamon rolls or bakingsmells meat in general.
Just those really fill my heartwith joy.
Now it's interesting Both ofyou have like it's a good that
(02:48):
campfire smell.
So for me, I smelled campfirethe other day.
I get home from work and I haveto like walk and look around
and be like can I spot it?
Do I see it?
Because we had a house fire.
Yeah, and that's what wethought it was.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
A whole other core memory.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Right, we thought it was a campfire until we realized
it was our house.
So when I smelled that, when Igot home I even checked all the
areas of our house the garage,the backyard, whatever before I
felt okay to just do life.
So it's interesting.
So that smell triggerssomething very different to me
(03:27):
than it ever did prior.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah Well, thank you guys for sharing some of your
memories, good and bad thosesmells how it works in our brain
is really amazing to me how Godcreated that.
So God also created ourinspiration for our Nuts and
Bolts series, which is theSermon of the Mount.
So this series we are divinginto, constructing a disciple
from the ground up, and PastorZach has been leading us through
(03:51):
three weeks so far.
We talked about the foundationin week one, the design week two
, and then this week it was allabout the frame, the framework.
So Zach opened his sermon witha question have you ever bent
the rules for your benefit?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I think there are personality types that have a
tendency to get on a continuumone side or the other.
At least there is in my home,because as far as I am, hey,
that rule didn't quite apply tome.
My wife is the consummate rulefollower, so we find ourselves
(04:35):
sometimes paralyzed.
When we're taking a walk or atrip or something, I say, well,
let's come over here.
No, that's not our, we can't goover there.
Yeah, we can, it's not ourproperty, they don't care.
I say, well, let's come overhere.
No, that's not our, we can't goover there.
Yeah, we can, it's not ourproperty, they don't care, it's
that.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, I think my whole life has been trying to
find these loopholes.
I'm nervous of what to sharebecause I don't want people to
leave the church or whatever.
But when?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I was in high school later yeah, for real.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
When I was in high school I go to movie theaters
and Zach mentioned like how somepeople sneak food into movie
theaters.
I didn't do that a whole lot,but what I would do is way
grosser.
I would go, I would find apopcorn bucket that didn't have
the mark on the bottom becauseyou could get one refill and an
extra large soda, and I wouldjust grab them from the trash
(05:32):
and I'd bring them back up andthey'd refill the popcorn and
the large soda for free.
I didn't pay for popcorn orsoda all through high school and
I would like go on dates andlike still do this, and the
girls would just be so disgustedI'd be like well, this is what
you get, yeah.
(05:54):
You want it or not.
So that's just one of the uh,one of the ways that I think
I've bent the rules, but manymore if we ever talk personally
mine is really about.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Zach talked about speed limits and that's really
where I'm like.
Oh, it can be two to threemiles over in town and it's
definitely a solid seven to tenon the interstate over the speed
limit.
That's where I set my cruiseand just hope for the best.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I've got one thought about this, though, like when it
comes to taxes if there is adeclaration of $20 that I didn't
declare, or maybe I got paidsomething, I will do whatever it
takes to make sure it's in mytaxes, because for me, I think
(06:42):
of, I do not want to sell myhonesty for a $20 tax break.
So that one, I'm rigidly in therules, but that's about honesty
.
The other stuff it's not abouthonesty, it's about practicality
.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Is that honesty connected to tax fraud or what?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Does that just depend , if he's caught?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, I don't know how many audits have you been
through?
Not any.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
So Zach related this to the spirit of the law versus
the letter of the law, talkingabout how we can be letter of
the law people where we aretaking the word of God just word
for word exactly what it means.
Or if it's the spirit of thelaw, which is, what does it
really mean?
You guys have anything you tookaway from the opening of that
(07:35):
discussion?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I thought it was very insightful because he also said
Jesus is talking to both andthe letter of the law is really
easy to pick out, becausethey're Pharisees and that was
their business and theirreligion was worn on the outside
.
How do I look?
What are the rules?
Oh, maybe we need some morerules, and if I make the rules
(08:00):
and you've got to follow them,then I'm in more power and Jesus
is messing with us.
But Jesus came from both sides,and even for the spirit of the
law, because making up just kindof whatever you want, as if the
law doesn't matter, well, andJesus' whole matter was what
(08:23):
about your heart?
Let's get at your heart.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah, yeah, Oftentimes when I think letter
of the law and spirit of the law, I think of it because I'm
wired to manipulate it, to belike, yeah, I know you told me
I'm supposed to drive this speedor whatever, but what are we
doing here?
Like, come on, I have thisspeed or I'm whatever, but what
are we doing here?
Like, come on.
And so when I think of spiritof the law, normally I think of
(08:48):
it in a way of like, how can Iget away with something?
But this is the opposite.
It's the laws here, but you'rebreaking it.
Even if you didn't murdersomebody.
You're breaking it If youthought poorly of someone.
Um, you're breaking adultery Ifyou thought, uh, had lust,
thought poorly of someone.
You're breaking adultery if youhad lustful thoughts of someone
.
And so it's actually theopposite and gives me it doesn't
(09:12):
give me wiggle room to get awaywith things, it just gives me
more of a no, I'm breaking thelaw even if I didn't murder,
even if I didn't commit adultery.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, I like he really just talks about.
Jesus says flat out you haveheard it said this, but what I
really mean is this, and it justbroadens that view of what that
is yeah, so on some of thosetopics, is there anything that
really struck you guys onadultery, murder, divorce, eye
for an eye, taking an oath, someof those things that he brought
(09:47):
up, what spoke to you?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, the one thing that spoke to me over all of
them was Jesus wasn'tdownplaying them, he was
actually digging into them.
But he also said I havefulfilled the law.
And I think he gives us a wholenew awareness to look deeper.
(10:14):
And if we look deep, we willalways find ways that we come up
short of living that perfectlife of love that he gives us to
.
And that's basically what thelaw does.
It's guidelines to live aperfect life of love, but, thank
you Jesus, he fulfilled it.
(10:34):
Each one of those he livedperfectly.
And that's kind of one of thethings resonating in my heart as
I was listening, because Zachmentioned well, don't think that
I came to abolish it, but Icame to fulfill it.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, and that's always been a confusing phrase
to me, so I don't know if eitherof you can unpack that a little
bit.
The whole, like Jesus becamesin because he's sinless, so how
does he become sin?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, so good.
Oh well, he who knew no sinbecame sin for us, Right he
might become.
The righteousness of God wassomething apart from him that
(11:29):
was actually placed on him whenthe wrath of God was poured out
against sin, it personally hadto be attached to him because a
human mean we needed, wedeserved it.
So for him to take it, heliterally had to be the
(11:51):
recipient of the full wrath ofGod against sin and in that
sense he was literally made.
Sin for us Doesn't mean he'ssinful, but he was the recipient
of all the wrath of God becauseour sin placed on him.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So that ties right into what Pastor Zach talked
about, when he talked aboutJesus bore all the weight of our
sin, and when he was talkingabout the framework of this nuts
and bolts series, the framework.
When you build a house or abuilding, there's a structure in
it that really supports theweight of that, and how
serendipitous is it that it iscalled the cross beam and.
Jesus bore the weight of oursin on the cross.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Yeah, that is such a cool picture.
There's a Louis Giglio talksabout this in the human body.
There's something that holdsthe body together called laminin
.
It's also in the form of across, but, yeah, the structure
(13:02):
that keeps a house upright andkeeps that roof of protection
over you is a cross beam.
Yeah, to tie that into ourlives.
It's this tricky thing becauseit is.
As Lutherans, we have learnedthat the law must not
predominate the gospel, and sothat elevates the gospel.
We teach the gospel most everyweek in one way or another, and
(13:24):
that's really good.
But the reality is, oftentimesthe gospel is sandwiched by the
law.
So the law first reveals tocondemn us, so we know that we
need the gospel.
And then the gospel comes inand says and you can't earn this
.
This is all done by Christ, whodied for you so that you may
have salvation.
(13:44):
And then it's followed up bynow because of this, like, go
live a life for God.
Um, cast your eyes on the cross.
You know, like, do this, and soit's you've got law, gospel law
.
You know, like, do this, and soyou've got law, gospel law,
which I think is a really goodorder for us to know that
(14:07):
because of what Christ did, weare saved.
That crossbeam sustains us Nowdon't live like it doesn't Go do
something about it.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, it gives us freedom to make that response
based on love, not based ontrying to work an exchange out
and saying, okay, you'll love meif or I'll earn or merit.
Here's something that I canremember as a teenager.
(14:41):
This came up in a Bible studyand they said if you've ever
called anyone, you know, look atthese examples of sin.
You know you're in danger ofthe hellfire, of the fires of
sin, just by calling someoneraka or you know.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, raka it translated nimwit empty-headed.
I took that note.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, blockhead.
He used that in one of themessages have you had people
call you that Peter.
Yes, and taking that intocontext, you know it can be very
indicting.
It can be very indicting.
But if we get so focused onjust are we doing it right or
(15:31):
wrong, it's a trap, because whoare we looking at Us?
And before long we'll bemeasuring our very worth, our
very relationship, for thatmatter, on how well are we doing
?
And that's why the cross beamis so important.
(15:54):
Look at the cross, hey.
Stop looking at and focusing onwhat's already been dealt with.
And look at the cross, hey.
Stop looking at and focusing onwhat's already been dealt with.
And look at the cross.
And there you have the freedomof that forgiveness.
That lets you, hey, build thehouse.
Let's build the discipleshiphouse.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, and I think it's really easy to in this side
of the resurrection to look atthose Pharisees and be like what
idiots those rock guys likejust so concerned with how well
they follow the law.
But yet how many of ourrelationships are predicated on
(16:32):
that, where it's like anyrelationship, where it's they
will like me if I do.
This is that, and it's not agreat relationship, rather than
a relationship that says I loveyou because you're my friend, or
you're my spouse, or you're mychild, and because Christ loved
me first.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
And because of that I desire to be obedient or show
kindness or whatever it is.
The order really matters yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, and the transformation because it's
coming out of the heart and hewants to deal with the heart,
not just what's on the outside.
And I just think it's so easyfor us to.
You know, it's easy sometimesfor us to repent of what we've
(17:22):
done wrong, but sometimes weneed to repent of our own
righteousness and just trying tolook good on the outside,
that's self-righteousness.
Now it takes both of thosekinds of repentance and that's
something that happens in theheart and that's what Jesus is
getting at.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, I often.
About five years ago, there wasa huge term amongst Christians
and people who are leavingChristianity called
deconstruction.
Yeah, and it's still a termthat's thrown out often, and
when I hear deconstructionstories whether through people I
(18:03):
meet or stories I read,articles or videos they often
are people deconstructing fromwhat you just spoke about,
Pastor Roger, of like it's.
They saw Christianity in a formthat really wasn't Christianity
.
It was people who were tryingto look good, like they were
(18:23):
following the law, but they knewthat those people were
miserable sinners like them andthey were deconstructing from
that, which I honestly think issomething we ought to
deconstruct from.
But don't let our foolishnessas humans take away from Christ,
and when we fix ourselves oneach other or on ourselves, it
(18:46):
gets pretty skewed.
It's a house that crumbles, butwhen we fix our eyes on the
cross, well then it helps us tosee the people around us as what
we really are flawed, but alsocalled and redeemed by the one
who saved us.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yes, In Matthew 5, verse 48, it says Be perfect,
therefore, as your heavenlyFather is perfect, and I really
liked what Pastor Zach saidabout this.
He said you look at that in ournormal life and that really
makes us feel worse aboutourselves Because there's no way
I'm living a perfect life.
There's just no standard ofthat that I can come close to,
(19:29):
but it makes us feel betterabout Jesus.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Because, he did do that and he does do that for us.
Yeah, did you guys have anyother things that really you
know you're going to take beyondSunday with you from this
message?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I'm going to probably check some of my self
permission, about my spirit ofthe law my wife and I, I'm sure,
are going to have some furtherconversations about hmm.
Okay, maybe I should dial thatone back a bit.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, and for me, I mean, there were some immediate
things that that this messagecaused to stick out in my head,
some convictions and someimmediate changes in ways that
I've been like.
Well, this isn't a sin, butit's distracting me from
actually seeing and caring aboutmy family, and so changing some
(20:36):
things in my life, like thatday and the day after that, that
were good, that'll help me tobe less distracted and more
present with those around me.
And then, as far as likesomething like I think I'm still
going to speed, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Let's not talk about that.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Okay, but I would say this the difference is.
The difference is the heart isdifferent.
It's about what Jesus has doneto change our hearts through the
wonderful gift of Hisforgiveness.
That gives us a freedom to nowlook at all different parts of
our life and have a kind of awilling freshness to say well,
(21:21):
you know, there's some otherthings that you know, maybe I'm
not doing best and I'm onlysettling for good, and that's
the freedom that he brings us.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Right and further than that, there are things that
I'm not settling for good.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I'm breaking laws but others aren't seeing it.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So it's okay.
And this is what Jesus issaying.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
No, it's not okay.
Yeah, I mean.
And every time we we do that,we fool ourselves, we
desensitize ourselves and we um,we are tricked by our own sin.
Satan loves to trick us in thatway To say you know what,
you're okay, nobody sees it.
(22:08):
Which is funny because at thesame time he tricks us to say,
like you're not okay, you'recondemned, you're not worth
saving.
And so there's that constantbalance of like get our eyes off
of ourselves, fix it on Jesus.
Imbalance of like get our eyesoff of ourselves, fix it on
Jesus.
And then, once we have thatfoundation, once we have that
cross, once we have somethingbigger than ourselves in our
lives, well then we seeourselves and the people around
(22:30):
us very differently.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
I had a leader growing up that used to say you
wanted to live Jesus with yourheart, not just your skin, and I
think of that when he talksabout these things.
You have heard it said in theletter of the law that's living
it with your skin, like the veryoutwardly side of it, and when
you go to but he really meansthis, that's living it with your
heart.
You know what are you thinkinginside that, like you said,
(22:55):
other people can't see.
And how are we shifting that?
So the one thing that I reallylike about the Sermon on the
Mount that Zach points out againand again every week is that it
is not about us getting toheaven, it is about bringing
heaven down to earth.
You guys have any thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
The main message Jesus taught was kingdom.
The kingdom of God is at hand,and this is his platform message
on it, but then the kingdom ofGod is fulfilled when he
completed his mission and wentto the cross for us and rose
again to prove that it worked.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah, and success looks very different.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
You know, it's like kingdom success looks very
different than this world'sdefinition.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Well, and that shifts into so many things.
The picture of success for ayoung high school girl is that
they're in multiple activitiesand they're dating someone who's
really good at what they do,and they have college offers at
big schools and they already atwhat they do.
And they have college offers atbig schools and they already
know what they're doing.
And oh, by the way, theystarted their own nonprofit.
(24:06):
As a 16-year-old Holy cow, weshould all strive to be like
that kid.
Well, studies are showing thatthat kid lives a whole lot a
life of higher stress, lowerlife satisfaction, than the
person who says I want to livesimply, I'm going to strive to
(24:27):
do well at what God has given me, but I don't need to be the one
with 10 scholarship offers anda 4.4.
Those things are good, but whatis success really?
Those things are good, but whatis success really?
And I think this is another oneof those refocus messages
Blessed is the peacemaker,blessed is the meek.
(24:50):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Well, if I'm living after, like, how can I bless myself to get
a Bentley?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yikes, not the right type of success.
I didn't read that in the Bible.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
No, no, and if you have a Bentley, sweet.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Let me know I want to ride in it Over the speed limit
.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
You know, not too much, maybe a little.
Open it up, let's see what itcan do.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah Well, thank you guys so much for being here, and
next week we're going to lookat the systems in the Nuts and
Bolts series.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
So we'll see what Zach has to say about that.
For now, let's keep living ourfaith beyond Sunday.
Thank you, Dina.
Welcome to Beyond Sunday, the podcast where we
take a look at the sermon seriesof King of Kings and see what
we're taking beyond Sunday.
My name is Dena Newsom and I'mglad you're here with us.
I have some special gueststoday and I'm going to let them
introduce themselves.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I'm Roger Timer, one of the pastors here, and I also
am glad to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Peter Bay campus director for King's Northwest
and, yeah, ready to dive intothis message.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
All right, I don't know if you guys know it, but
this week is National FragranceWeek, so my questions for you to
get us started today, are whatare your favorite smell?
What's your favorite fragranceand what's like a smell that
unlocks the core memory for?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
you?
Oh, that's good.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, yeah, you got one you want me to start.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
No, you go you go.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
My favorite smell is campfire smell when it's burning
wood, which can be destructionbut can be very pleasant
gathering.
I love campfire smell but mycore memory smell is lilacs.
We had rows of bushes of lilacsin our backyard when I was
growing up.
My mom would collect theflowers and bring them inside
and our whole house would smelllike lilacs and it just makes me
(01:19):
think of my childhood of summerof my childhood, of summer, of
my mom.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I just love that.
Wow, that's cool.
Makes me want to go to yourmemories Because, well, when you
said fragrance, the first thingI thought of is that my
favorite fragrance is whatevercologne my wife gives me to wear
, because her olfactory sensesare so much more acute and I
don't care how I smell that much, but I like it.
(01:56):
When she says oh, I like thatsmell.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
That's a smart man right there.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
But if I were to go with the guy's smell, I'm going
to have to go campfire, becausethat reminds me of especially
even like when it's on yourclothes and you're on a
couple-day backpack trip.
You smell like fun andadventure.
That's what it means to me.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, my favorite smells all deal with food.
So I mean bacon's undefeated,oh yeah, like the vanilla of,
like cinnamon rolls or bakingsmells meat in general.
Just those really fill my heartwith joy.
Now it's interesting Both ofyou have like it's a good that
(02:48):
campfire smell.
So for me, I smelled campfirethe other day.
I get home from work and I haveto like walk and look around
and be like can I spot it?
Do I see it?
Because we had a house fire.
Yeah, and that's what wethought it was.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
A whole other core memory.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
Right, we thought it was a campfire until we realized
it was our house.
So when I smelled that, when Igot home I even checked all the
areas of our house the garage,the backyard, whatever before I
felt okay to just do life.
So it's interesting.
So that smell triggerssomething very different to me
(03:27):
than it ever did prior.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah Well, thank you guys for sharing some of your
memories, good and bad thosesmells how it works in our brain
is really amazing to me how Godcreated that.
So God also created ourinspiration for our Nuts and
Bolts series, which is theSermon of the Mount.
So this series we are divinginto, constructing a disciple
from the ground up, and PastorZach has been leading us through
(03:51):
three weeks so far.
We talked about the foundationin week one, the design week two
, and then this week it was allabout the frame, the framework.
So Zach opened his sermon witha question have you ever bent
the rules for your benefit?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I think there are personality types that have a
tendency to get on a continuumone side or the other.
At least there is in my home,because as far as I am, hey,
that rule didn't quite apply tome.
My wife is the consummate rulefollower, so we find ourselves
(04:35):
sometimes paralyzed.
When we're taking a walk or atrip or something, I say, well,
let's come over here.
No, that's not our, we can't goover there.
Yeah, we can, it's not ourproperty, they don't care.
I say, well, let's come overhere.
No, that's not our, we can't goover there.
Yeah, we can, it's not ourproperty, they don't care, it's
that.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah, I think my whole life has been trying to
find these loopholes.
I'm nervous of what to sharebecause I don't want people to
leave the church or whatever.
But when?
Speaker 2 (05:06):
I was in high school later yeah, for real.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
When I was in high school I go to movie theaters
and Zach mentioned like how somepeople sneak food into movie
theaters.
I didn't do that a whole lot,but what I would do is way
grosser.
I would go, I would find apopcorn bucket that didn't have
the mark on the bottom becauseyou could get one refill and an
extra large soda, and I wouldjust grab them from the trash
(05:32):
and I'd bring them back up andthey'd refill the popcorn and
the large soda for free.
I didn't pay for popcorn orsoda all through high school and
I would like go on dates andlike still do this, and the
girls would just be so disgustedI'd be like well, this is what
you get, yeah.
(05:54):
You want it or not.
So that's just one of the uh,one of the ways that I think
I've bent the rules, but manymore if we ever talk personally
mine is really about.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Zach talked about speed limits and that's really
where I'm like.
Oh, it can be two to threemiles over in town and it's
definitely a solid seven to tenon the interstate over the speed
limit.
That's where I set my cruiseand just hope for the best.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I've got one thought about this, though, like when it
comes to taxes if there is adeclaration of $20 that I didn't
declare, or maybe I got paidsomething, I will do whatever it
takes to make sure it's in mytaxes, because for me, I think
(06:42):
of, I do not want to sell myhonesty for a $20 tax break.
So that one, I'm rigidly in therules, but that's about honesty
.
The other stuff it's not abouthonesty, it's about practicality
.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Is that honesty connected to tax fraud or what?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Does that just depend , if he's caught?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Right, I don't know how many audits have you been
through?
Not any.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
So Zach related this to the spirit of the law versus
the letter of the law, talkingabout how we can be letter of
the law people where we aretaking the word of God just word
for word exactly what it means.
Or if it's the spirit of thelaw, which is, what does it
really mean?
You guys have anything you tookaway from the opening of that
(07:35):
discussion?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I thought it was very insightful because he also said
Jesus is talking to both andthe letter of the law is really
easy to pick out, becausethey're Pharisees and that was
their business and theirreligion was worn on the outside
.
How do I look?
What are the rules?
Oh, maybe we need some morerules, and if I make the rules
(08:00):
and you've got to follow them,then I'm in more power and Jesus
is messing with us.
But Jesus came from both sides,and even for the spirit of the
law, because making up just kindof whatever you want, as if the
law doesn't matter, well, andJesus' whole matter was what
(08:23):
about your heart?
Let's get at your heart.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah, yeah, Oftentimes when I think letter
of the law and spirit of the law, I think of it because I'm
wired to manipulate it, to belike, yeah, I know you told me
I'm supposed to drive this speedor whatever, but what are we
doing here?
Like, come on, I have thisspeed or I'm whatever, but what
are we doing here?
Like, come on.
And so when I think of spiritof the law, normally I think of
(08:48):
it in a way of like, how can Iget away with something?
But this is the opposite.
It's the laws here, but you'rebreaking it.
Even if you didn't murdersomebody.
You're breaking it If youthought poorly of someone.
Um, you're breaking adultery Ifyou thought, uh, had lust,
thought poorly of someone.
You're breaking adultery if youhad lustful thoughts of someone
.
And so it's actually theopposite and gives me it doesn't
(09:12):
give me wiggle room to get awaywith things, it just gives me
more of a no, I'm breaking thelaw even if I didn't murder,
even if I didn't commit adultery.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, I like he really just talks about.
Jesus says flat out you haveheard it said this, but what I
really mean is this, and it justbroadens that view of what that
is yeah, so on some of thosetopics, is there anything that
really struck you guys onadultery, murder, divorce, eye
for an eye, taking an oath, someof those things that he brought
(09:47):
up, what spoke to you?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Well, the one thing that spoke to me over all of
them was Jesus wasn'tdownplaying them, he was
actually digging into them.
But he also said I havefulfilled the law.
And I think he gives us a wholenew awareness to look deeper.
(10:14):
And if we look deep, we willalways find ways that we come up
short of living that perfectlife of love that he gives us to
.
And that's basically what thelaw does.
It's guidelines to live aperfect life of love, but, thank
you Jesus, he fulfilled it.
(10:34):
Each one of those he livedperfectly.
And that's kind of one of thethings resonating in my heart as
I was listening, because Zachmentioned well, don't think that
I came to abolish it, but Icame to fulfill it.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Yeah, and that's always been a confusing phrase
to me, so I don't know if eitherof you can unpack that a little
bit.
The whole, like Jesus becamesin because he's sinless, so how
does he become sin?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, so good.
Oh well, he who knew no sinbecame sin for us, Right he
might become.
The righteousness of God wassomething apart from him that
(11:29):
was actually placed on him whenthe wrath of God was poured out
against sin, it personally hadto be attached to him because a
human mean we needed, wedeserved it.
So for him to take it, heliterally had to be the
(11:51):
recipient of the full wrath ofGod against sin and in that
sense he was literally made.
Sin for us Doesn't mean he'ssinful, but he was the recipient
of all the wrath of God becauseour sin placed on him.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So that ties right into what Pastor Zach talked
about, when he talked aboutJesus bore all the weight of our
sin, and when he was talkingabout the framework of this nuts
and bolts series, the framework.
When you build a house or abuilding, there's a structure in
it that really supports theweight of that, and how
serendipitous is it that it iscalled the cross beam and.
Jesus bore the weight of oursin on the cross.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Yeah, that is such a cool picture.
There's a Louis Giglio talksabout this in the human body.
There's something that holdsthe body together called laminin
.
It's also in the form of across, but, yeah, the structure
(13:02):
that keeps a house upright andkeeps that roof of protection
over you is a cross beam.
Yeah, to tie that into ourlives.
It's this tricky thing becauseit is.
As Lutherans, we have learnedthat the law must not
predominate the gospel, and sothat elevates the gospel.
We teach the gospel most everyweek in one way or another, and
(13:24):
that's really good.
But the reality is, oftentimesthe gospel is sandwiched by the
law.
So the law first reveals tocondemn us, so we know that we
need the gospel.
And then the gospel comes inand says and you can't earn this
.
This is all done by Christ, whodied for you so that you may
have salvation.
(13:44):
And then it's followed up bynow because of this, like, go
live a life for God.
Um, cast your eyes on the cross.
You know, like, do this, and soit's you've got law, gospel law
.
You know, like, do this, and soyou've got law, gospel law,
which I think is a really goodorder for us to know that
(14:07):
because of what Christ did, weare saved.
That crossbeam sustains us Nowdon't live like it doesn't Go do
something about it.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, it gives us freedom to make that response
based on love, not based ontrying to work an exchange out
and saying, okay, you'll love meif or I'll earn or merit.
Here's something that I canremember as a teenager.
(14:41):
This came up in a Bible studyand they said if you've ever
called anyone, you know, look atthese examples of sin.
You know you're in danger ofthe hellfire, of the fires of
sin, just by calling someoneraka or you know.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, raka it translated nimwit empty-headed.
I took that note.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, blockhead.
He used that in one of themessages have you had people
call you that Peter.
Yes, and taking that intocontext, you know it can be very
indicting.
It can be very indicting.
But if we get so focused onjust are we doing it right or
(15:31):
wrong, it's a trap, because whoare we looking at Us?
And before long we'll bemeasuring our very worth, our
very relationship, for thatmatter, on how well are we doing
?
And that's why the cross beamis so important.
(15:54):
Look at the cross, hey.
Stop looking at and focusing onwhat's already been dealt with.
And look at the cross, hey.
Stop looking at and focusing onwhat's already been dealt with.
And look at the cross.
And there you have the freedomof that forgiveness.
That lets you, hey, build thehouse.
Let's build the discipleshiphouse.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah, and I think it's really easy to in this side
of the resurrection to look atthose Pharisees and be like what
idiots those rock guys likejust so concerned with how well
they follow the law.
But yet how many of ourrelationships are predicated on
(16:32):
that, where it's like anyrelationship, where it's they
will like me if I do.
This is that, and it's not agreat relationship, rather than
a relationship that says I loveyou because you're my friend, or
you're my spouse, or you're mychild, and because Christ loved
me first.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
And because of that I desire to be obedient or show
kindness or whatever it is.
The order really matters yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Well, and the transformation because it's
coming out of the heart and hewants to deal with the heart,
not just what's on the outside.
And I just think it's so easyfor us to.
You know, it's easy sometimesfor us to repent of what we've
(17:22):
done wrong, but sometimes weneed to repent of our own
righteousness and just trying tolook good on the outside,
that's self-righteousness.
Now it takes both of thosekinds of repentance and that's
something that happens in theheart and that's what Jesus is
getting at.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Yeah, I often.
About five years ago, there wasa huge term amongst Christians
and people who are leavingChristianity called
deconstruction.
Yeah, and it's still a termthat's thrown out often, and
when I hear deconstructionstories whether through people I
(18:03):
meet or stories I read,articles or videos they often
are people deconstructing fromwhat you just spoke about,
Pastor Roger, of like it's.
They saw Christianity in a formthat really wasn't Christianity
.
It was people who were tryingto look good, like they were
(18:23):
following the law, but they knewthat those people were
miserable sinners like them andthey were deconstructing from
that, which I honestly think issomething we ought to
deconstruct from.
But don't let our foolishnessas humans take away from Christ,
and when we fix ourselves oneach other or on ourselves, it
(18:46):
gets pretty skewed.
It's a house that crumbles, butwhen we fix our eyes on the
cross, well then it helps us tosee the people around us as what
we really are flawed, but alsocalled and redeemed by the one
who saved us.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yes, In Matthew 5, verse 48, it says Be perfect,
therefore, as your heavenlyFather is perfect, and I really
liked what Pastor Zach saidabout this.
He said you look at that in ournormal life and that really
makes us feel worse aboutourselves Because there's no way
I'm living a perfect life.
There's just no standard ofthat that I can come close to,
(19:29):
but it makes us feel betterabout Jesus.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Oh my.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Because, he did do that and he does do that for us.
Yeah, did you guys have anyother things that really you
know you're going to take beyondSunday with you from this
message?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I'm going to probably check some of my self
permission, about my spirit ofthe law my wife and I, I'm sure,
are going to have some furtherconversations about hmm.
Okay, maybe I should dial thatone back a bit.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, and for me, I mean, there were some immediate
things that that this messagecaused to stick out in my head,
some convictions and someimmediate changes in ways that
I've been like.
Well, this isn't a sin, butit's distracting me from
actually seeing and caring aboutmy family, and so changing some
(20:36):
things in my life, like thatday and the day after that, that
were good, that'll help me tobe less distracted and more
present with those around me.
And then, as far as likesomething like I think I'm still
going to speed, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Let's not talk about that.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Okay, but I would say this the difference is.
The difference is the heart isdifferent.
It's about what Jesus has doneto change our hearts through the
wonderful gift of Hisforgiveness.
That gives us a freedom to nowlook at all different parts of
our life and have a kind of awilling freshness to say well,
(21:21):
you know, there's some otherthings that you know, maybe I'm
not doing best and I'm onlysettling for good, and that's
the freedom that he brings us.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
Right and further than that, there are things that
I'm not settling for good.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
I'm breaking laws but others aren't seeing it.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
So it's okay.
And this is what Jesus issaying.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
No, it's not okay.
Yeah, I mean.
And every time we we do that,we fool ourselves, we
desensitize ourselves and we um,we are tricked by our own sin.
Satan loves to trick us in thatway To say you know what,
you're okay, nobody sees it.
(22:08):
Which is funny because at thesame time he tricks us to say,
like you're not okay, you'recondemned, you're not worth
saving.
And so there's that constantbalance of like get our eyes off
of ourselves, fix it on Jesus.
Imbalance of like get our eyesoff of ourselves, fix it on
Jesus.
And then, once we have thatfoundation, once we have that
cross, once we have somethingbigger than ourselves in our
lives, well then we seeourselves and the people around
(22:30):
us very differently.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
I had a leader growing up that used to say you
wanted to live Jesus with yourheart, not just your skin, and I
think of that when he talksabout these things.
You have heard it said in theletter of the law that's living
it with your skin, like the veryoutwardly side of it, and when
you go to but he really meansthis, that's living it with your
heart.
You know what are you thinkinginside that, like you said,
(22:55):
other people can't see.
And how are we shifting that?
So the one thing that I reallylike about the Sermon on the
Mount that Zach points out againand again every week is that it
is not about us getting toheaven, it is about bringing
heaven down to earth.
You guys have any thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
The main message Jesus taught was kingdom.
The kingdom of God is at hand,and this is his platform message
on it, but then the kingdom ofGod is fulfilled when he
completed his mission and wentto the cross for us and rose
again to prove that it worked.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Yeah, and success looks very different.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
You know, it's like kingdom success looks very
different than this world'sdefinition.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Well, and that shifts into so many things.
The picture of success for ayoung high school girl is that
they're in multiple activitiesand they're dating someone who's
really good at what they do,and they have college offers at
big schools and they already atwhat they do.
And they have college offers atbig schools and they already
know what they're doing.
And oh, by the way, theystarted their own nonprofit.
(24:06):
As a 16-year-old Holy cow, weshould all strive to be like
that kid.
Well, studies are showing thatthat kid lives a whole lot a
life of higher stress, lowerlife satisfaction, than the
person who says I want to livesimply, I'm going to strive to
(24:27):
do well at what God has given me, but I don't need to be the one
with 10 scholarship offers anda 4.4.
Those things are good, but whatis success really?
Those things are good, but whatis success really?
And I think this is another oneof those refocus messages
Blessed is the peacemaker,blessed is the meek.
(24:50):
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Well, if I'm living after, like, how can I bless myself to get
a Bentley?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yikes, not the right type of success.
I didn't read that in the Bible.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
No, no, and if you have a Bentley, sweet.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
Let me know I want to ride in it Over the speed limit
.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
You know, not too much, maybe a little.
Open it up, let's see what itcan do.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah Well, thank you guys so much for being here, and
next week we're going to lookat the systems in the Nuts and
Bolts series.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
So we'll see what Zach has to say about that.
For now, let's keep living ourfaith beyond Sunday.
Thank you, Dina.
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