August 19, 2025 • 22 mins
Ever caught yourself thinking, “Why should I be the one to fix this?” or “That sounds like a YOU problem”?
That flash of defensiveness might feel natural, but it could be blocking a chance to grow, connect, and lead more effectively.
In this episode of Beyond the Class, Katie Trotter, Chief Program Officer at the Chapman Foundation for Caring Communities, explores the ownership mindset. This approach invites leaders to ask, “What part can I own?” even when the situation feels mostly out of their control.
Katie introduces the idea of “the gap." The space between what happens and how we choose to respond. It’s in this space that leaders can shift from blame to responsibility, from frustration to curiosity, and from reaction to reflection.
Through real-life stories and practical tools, Katie unpacks how small shifts in ownership can build trust, strengthen teams, and create psychological safety. You’ll learn how to:
- Recognize the difference between blame and responsibility
- Use reflection to respond with intention
- Ask questions that move conversations forward
- Build trust through consistent, small acts of ownership
- Create space for growth even when things go wrong
If you're ready to shift from defensiveness to development in your leadership journey, this episode offers the practical guidance and actionable steps to get started today.
If you're interested in exploring these concepts further, check out Our Community Serves, a two-day class on mindsets that help shift from a me-centric to a we-centric culture at https://www.chapmancommunities.org/learn-to-connect/
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Episode Transcript
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KATIE TROTTER (00:00):
Of course, these are great questions to ask
yourself when you're in a toughsituation and want to grow from
it.
For example, what was Ipretending not to know in this
situation?
ADAM SALGAT (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Class From
Knowledge to Action, the audiocast that helps Chapman
Foundation alumni continue thejourney of applying the skills
they've built and turning theminto practical, intentional
actions for everyday life.
I'm your host, adam Solgut, andtoday we're diving into a
mindset shift that can changehow you lead, how you relate and
(00:33):
how you grow, even when thingsgo wrong and it's not your fault
.
If you've ever found yourselfthinking why should I be the one
to fix this?
Or this isn't my responsibility, or a personal favorite that
I've heard people use, thatsounds like a you problem.
This episode is going toexplain that staying in that
(00:54):
mindset eliminates opportunitiesfor growth, and then we'll give
you ways to help you get pastthat and into what today's
episode is all about.
And into what today's episodeis all about the ownership
mindset, what it is, what it'snot, and how it can help you
(01:15):
grow in any situation.
Joining me today again whichI'm very happy to have her back
is Katie Trotter, chief ProgramOfficer at the Chapman
Foundation for CaringCommunities.
Katie, welcome back.
KATIE TROTTER (01:21):
Thanks, adam.
I'm really glad to be heretoday.
This topic is one that I'veseen make a real difference, not
just in personal growth, but inhow teams function and trust
each other, so I'm lookingforward to talking about it more
.
ADAM SALGAT (01:33):
All right.
Well, let's get started withsome basics.
Katie, you wrote a blog on thistopic and in there you made a
really important distinction.
Ownership isn't about blame.
Can you unpack that a littlebit for us?
KATIE TROTTER (01:53):
Absolutely.
A lot of people hear ownershipand think it means taking the
fall or admitting fault, butthat's not what we're talking
about here.
Ownership is about askingwhat's my role in this or in
those other moments.
Just how do I want to respond?
It's about choosing growth overdefensiveness.
Even when something isn't yourfault, you still have power in
how you show up.
ADAM SALGAT (02:11):
That is a powerful shift, and I say that because of
a few reasons.
The idea of taking ownershipand that it means taking the
blame hits kind of hard With me.
Anyway, there was a point in mycareer where I took everything
as my fault, thinking exactlywhat you said that ownership
meant taking the fall.
KATIE TROTTER (02:30):
Yeah, and when you get stuck in that space,
adam, I'm curious, like, whatkind of impact did that have on
you?
ADAM SALGAT (02:35):
Yeah, for me it wrecked my confidence.
It made me question even thesimplest of choices, things that
I would never question becauseI've had years of experience and
have the gut to do it.
But in the end, questioningthat confidence led to apathy
and low production.
But I got through that by usingsome of the tools that we teach
.
So I'd love for us to getstarted and start looking at
(02:57):
those.
In my opening, I made a fewstatements there, statements
that can keep people stuck.
Statements around the idea ofwhy should I be the one to fix
this?
This isn't my responsibility or, like I said, one of my
favorites.
That sounds like a you problemTo me.
Those are classic phrases, likeI said, that illustrate
deflecting responsibility, butdoing that keeps us stuck.
(03:19):
Can you give an example of whatthat can look like?
KATIE TROTTER (03:22):
Yeah, let's just say you have a project that
you're working on and itcompletely goes sideways.
And the very first thought thatyou have might be well, I wasn't
the one who dropped the ball,and that might be true.
But if we stop there, we'remissing the chance to ask hey,
what could I have donedifferently, or how might I be
able to help this go better thenext time.
And we can do this sometimesbecause deflection feels safe.
(03:46):
But at the same time, it reallycan limit growth and I
sometimes like to think oftaking ownership like working
out.
Logically, it makes sense thatit would be good for us to do,
but actually doing it takes alot of hard work and can
sometimes be a little bituncomfortable, and it requires
discipline.
Now, there's no doubt in mymind that it's often much easier
(04:08):
when things go wrong to noticewhat other people did wrong, who
let us down, who underperformed.
But when we let ourselves stayI think the word you used, adam,
was stuck when we let ourselvesstay stuck in that space, we're
really denying ourselves agrowth opportunity.
ADAM SALGAT (04:23):
That analogy of thinking about this as working
out I really love, because manytimes it's hard to go work out,
in that it's hard to get itstarted, but by the time you're
done working out, I don't knowabout the rest of you, but I've
almost never finished theworkout and said, man, I hated
that, I just did that.
Yes.
KATIE TROTTER (04:40):
Right Point.
ADAM SALGAT (04:41):
Almost this euphoria, knowing that I did
something to improve my body,improve my health.
And so, if we think about it inthe same context, you're doing
something to improve your career, improve your mindset Right.
KATIE TROTTER (04:53):
Yeah, and I sometimes like to use the term.
It's a level up opportunityRight In these moments.
How can I be looking for a waythat I can continue to develop
and grow and reach that nextlevel can?
ADAM SALGAT (05:03):
continue to develop and grow and reach that next
level.
Keep going down that path.
You've presented the ideabefore that even if it is
someone else's fault thatthey're 98% responsible, there's
still 2% we can own.
Why do you find that sopowerful?
KATIE TROTTER (05:16):
I think this is such an important concept
because it's within that 2%where the real learning starts
to happen.
It's there where we can shiftfrom being passive recipients of
circumstances to activeparticipants in our own
development.
ADAM SALGAT (05:32):
Katie, do you have an example you could give us,
potentially like a real lifeexample, to help us understand
better about that?
2%.
KATIE TROTTER (05:40):
Yeah, I have a young woman that I was mentoring
we will, for the purpose ofthis audio cast, call her Jane
and Jane had been working on agroup project.
She was staying up late,getting all of her work done,
double checking and looking forways that she could improve her
end of the presentation, makingsure that everything was really
at a high level.
(06:01):
At a high level, and as she wasgoing along, she had a partner
that was working in the groupwho was consistently missing
deadlines and by the time theend product came out, it was
definitely at a lower level ofperformance than what was
anticipated for the group.
So that had an overall impacton everybody's final product.
And what I really appreciatedor admired about Jane was that
(06:22):
when we had our meeting or kindof talking through that process,
she could have chosen to focuson the 98, right.
She had met the deadlines.
She held her work product up toa really high standard.
There was obviously a person inthe group who had a very
negative impact on the end.
We're not debating that.
But Jane didn't want to saystuck on ruminating in that
(06:42):
space, right?
Instead, what she did was lookfor hey, what's my 2%?
How do I not waste thisopportunity and let it go by
without learning anything.
So instead Jane started askingherself questions around.
Hey, I wonder how I might havebeen able to set expectations
more clearly.
Or I wonder what it would looklike to better be a supportive
participant when I'm partneringwith other people on a team.
(07:04):
I was just blown away by seeinghow she shifted from
frustration over this area shecouldn't control to feeling
really empowered.
Thinking about that 2%.
ADAM SALGAT (07:15):
That is wonderful, yeah, because I think it'd be
very easy right to sit in thatspace and kind of say I'm just
upset and mad at this person andthey brought us down, but
instead she's taking theopportunity to say maybe I could
have supported them differently, and I think that's a great
opportunity to really, you know,talk about exactly what we're
talking about here.
(07:35):
She took that 2% and is lookingat it.
So, now that we've decided tolook for that 2%, you mentioned
in your blog that you describe amoment that follows as the gap.
So, using that example you justshared, the gap is that time
between when something happensand our response to it.
Tell me a little bit more aboutwhy that space is important and
(07:56):
how Jane had opportunity to usethe gap here.
KATIE TROTTER (08:00):
Yes, this is where all the good stuff lives,
adam.
There's this gap where we get achance to do a few things like
reflect on everything that'shappened and, in that moment,
build intention.
What is it that's mostimportant to me right now?
What do I want to take fromthis?
And do that with a lot of focusso that you're able to grow and
learn and develop.
(08:21):
But when we ignore that gap, wesometimes just react
automatically, we give away ourpower in that space, right,
we're just a victim of ourcircumstance.
And when we really can shiftfrom that to pausing and
choosing our response, that'swhen we really step into
ownership.
And, as we've already talkedabout, it's not always easy, but
it's really where realleadership begins.
(08:41):
Adam, I do want to say there'sthis element that we touched on
briefly, but taking this mindsetof ownership doesn't mean that
we're taking responsibility awayfrom somebody else who did the
98, right.
So you might have somebody whoreally does have a challenge.
They didn't meet theirperformance goals, they didn't
deliver on a promise that theyhad made, whatever that might
look like.
(09:01):
I just like to separate thosetwo out because it's not like
Jane was saying I'm 100%responsible for what happened,
right?
So she's really just focusingon the area she can control.
ADAM SALGAT (09:12):
And so the idea of her being able to control how
she maybe supports someone issomething she can look at as a
potential growth opportunity forherself in the future.
KATIE TROTTER (09:21):
Yes, absolutely.
ADAM SALGAT (09:23):
In the blog that you wrote on this subject.
One of my favorite parts is howyou connected ownership to
trust.
Tell me more about that.
KATIE TROTTER (09:31):
Yeah, when leaders model ownership, it
creates psychological safety,right.
It's showing your team thatit's okay to be human, to make
mistakes and to learn from them,and that's when you really
start to build a culture wherepeople can feel safe to speak up
and take risks right, they knowthat they're not going to be
blamed, they'll be supported,and it kind of makes sense if
(09:51):
you think about the fact thatyou have a group of humans all
trying to work towards a commonmission or achieve a common
project.
We know humans make mistakes,so the idea of taking ownership
is just how do we model that ina way that allows people to feel
like we can just acknowledge itand move forward?
ADAM SALGAT (10:07):
And I think modeling that gives the
opportunity for someone whotruly is looking at this
reflectively and seeing howyou're taking responsibility as
a leader, to then say tothemselves, wow, I did not do
maybe what I said I was going todo or what I did, and give them
opportunity to grow, to say,okay, I need to take ownership
of what I said I was going to do.
(10:29):
There is that growthopportunity and that's what
we're talking about here, katie.
I am curious, though, abouttrust, and I want you to touch
on you know, for you as a leaderpersonally, why do you find
that important?
What does cultivating trustamongst the team that you lead
do for you?
KATIE TROTTER (10:49):
Adam, I don't want to overstate this, but I
feel like trust just makeseverything work better.
It cuts down on friction, itmakes the times that we
collaborate more enjoyable andit really helps us stay focused
on what actually matters insteadof getting caught up in
defensiveness or doubt.
If we're working on a teamtogether and we have to
(11:09):
constantly be questioningsomebody's motives or a hidden
agenda or whether they'reactually going to do what they
said they were going to do, thattakes up so much of our energy.
That would be better servedbeing really targeted on the
goals that we're trying toachieve.
ADAM SALGAT (11:22):
Trust is something that our organization really
focuses on in our leadershipclass, Our Community Transforms.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
KATIE TROTTER (11:31):
Yeah, in transforms, we really talk about
not just, hey, trust is reallyimportant, but breaking it down
to what are the behaviors andelements that go into building
and maintaining a trusting workenvironment.
Because it's easy enough tojust say, hey, this is important
, but we really want to walkthrough what are some tangible
tools that we can take back toour teams.
ADAM SALGAT (11:51):
So, speaking of some tangible tools, this is
exactly where I want to get tonow, as we start to talk about
shifting into an ownershipmindset.
I mean, we've brought up someexamples and we've talked about
how to do this a bit, but let'sgive some more concrete examples
.
So in your blog, you offer somequestions.
Can you go through these andtouch on them a little bit?
KATIE TROTTER (12:13):
Yeah, let's just start with three, adam.
The first one here is just whatpart of this can I own?
That's kind of scanning forthat 2%.
I'll be honest, sometimesmine's closer to the 70, 80, 90%
.
Right, but whatever thesituation, just looking at what
are the parts in this that weremy responsibility that I might
have dropped the ball on Gotcha.
(12:36):
The second one is what's my rolein this dynamic?
And sometimes it can be alittle bit nuanced because
technically, something might nothave your name next to it with
a sense of ownership, but youmight still play a role.
Were you in charge of providingresources and information, were
you in a project managementrole, and maybe you didn't
provide some of the guidance orreminders you typically would
have.
So I think that's a helpful wayto kind of look at it a little
bit differently.
And then the third one, whichis one of my favorites, is just
(12:59):
what do I want to have be trueabout how I handle this?
And what I love about this oneis this gets back to regardless
of what situation I'm in,regardless of what percentage of
the role I played in it, whatI'm asking is who do I want to
be in this moment?
Because that's how I want toshow up in my response.
ADAM SALGAT (13:16):
I like number two there about the what is my role
in this dynamic, because itreminds me a lot of the
opportunity as a leader to say,okay, my name is not necessarily
on this project, but I am theleader of the organization, or I
am the leader of thisdepartment and my opportunity to
support this and make sure it'scoming along the way that it
(13:37):
needs to for the organization onthe whole is a good reminder to
say, okay, my name might not beon it and I might not be like
98% responsible for it, but I amresponsible in some ways.
KATIE TROTTER (13:50):
Yes, Adam, that's a great example of how these
types of questions can reallyhelp shift us from frustration
to action.
They're quite simple in theirform, but incredibly powerful.
ADAM SALGAT (14:01):
This reminds me of a recent experience I had and I
was wondering do you mind if Ishare a bit of a personal
example, a personal story here?
KATIE TROTTER (14:09):
Yeah, go for it.
ADAM SALGAT (14:11):
So a little while back I sent an email to some
teammates I don't typically workwith very often.
My intention was to present anidea for something we could work
on in the future, and theinitial email was kind of long
and detailed.
The initial responses that Igot back asked me a couple
questions and caused me toreflect.
I realized I may haveoverwhelmed them or introduced
(14:34):
plans that didn't align with ourcurrent strategy.
Even though I tried to softenthe message with my word choices
, I could sense someapprehension.
So I sat back and I askedmyself how could I have done
this better?
That's when I started thinkingabout my teammates' behavioral
tendencies, along with the workthat they might already have on
(14:56):
their plates.
Even though it wasn't myintention to overwhelm them, the
amount of detail I includedcould easily have been taken
that way.
The bullet point lists Iincluded might have appeared as
to-do lists instead of theirintention as just a list of
ideas, bullet it out.
I took the opportunity toreflect on what part of this
(15:16):
situation I could own and I'llbe honest, a younger version of
me might have said hey, thisisn't my fault how they
perceived it.
I covered my bases, I used thewords I felt painted the right
picture in my head.
I covered my bases, I used thewords that I felt painted the
right picture in my head, but,as you've said, that mindset
doesn't help us grow, doesn'thelp us move forward.
So by stepping back and askingsome of those ownership
(15:43):
questions, I realized I couldbetter connect with the team and
present ideas more thoughtfullyin the future.
KATIE TROTTER (15:46):
Adam, that's such a great example.
It really shows how ownershipisn't about beating yourself up
or just getting mad at otherpeople right, it's really about
being curious and intentional.
And when I think about some ofthose shifts that you made,
right, considering it throughtheir preferred way of
communicating with theirbehavioral tendency, or how it
might have been interpreteddifferently.
What I love about that is thatyou weren't fixated on did I
(16:09):
technically do something wrong?
Right, instead, you werelooking for hey, if we're in the
situation anyway, where's mytwo percent level up opportunity
?
Right?
Don't want to waste this momentor let it go by without seeing.
Is there a way that I canimprove from this?
And it's in those small shiftsthat teams and co-workers really
build a lot of trust andconnection over time.
ADAM SALGAT (16:31):
And I will say I appreciate everything you said
there and I want to say it's noteasy to get to the point of
reflecting back and looking howdo I maybe do this differently?
And then even also taking theopportunity to talk with those
teammates about that, emailperson to person to kind of say,
hey, let's now talk throughthis.
(16:52):
Because I feel like yourresponse brought up some
apprehension or brought up maybean anxiety, and I want to make
sure that that wasn't where Iwas going with it and I want to
make sure you understand how wecan move forward and let's work
on that together.
And it was great conversationsto have.
But it does make me realizenext time, what can I do
differently?
KATIE TROTTER (17:12):
And Adam with that.
That's just another way thatteams continue to build in that
trust space, right?
Hey, if we did have thismiscommunication or we did have
things not go the way that wethought they would, how great
that we can just pick up thephone and have a conversation
about it or set up a meeting andtalk it through, so that that
energy can be used towards againthose end goals and the
important work thatorganizations are trying to
achieve.
ADAM SALGAT (17:33):
Yep, absolutely.
I'd love to take the time toprovide our listeners with some
more ways to kind of help shifttheir perspective.
Do you have any more questionsthat they could jot down?
Hopefully you know, if they'renot driving, maybe listening at
their desktop that they couldjot down and ponder.
KATIE TROTTER (17:50):
Of course, these are great questions to ask
yourself when you're in a toughsituation and want to grow from
it.
For example, one question mightbe what was I pretending not to
know in this situation?
ADAM SALGAT (18:03):
Man, right away, you're calling us out, right?
But it's true, sometimes weignore red flags or avoid the
truth because it's easier in themoment to just ignore them,
right?
So we just ignore the idea thatmaybe we see something and
we're like, oh no, I don't wantto believe that right now.
KATIE TROTTER (18:18):
Yeah, either some concept that we want to avoid
or some reality that we wouldprefer wasn't there, and
sometimes just nuances of theperson we're interacting with.
Right, we know that somebodyprefers to be communicated with
a certain way, or needed thingsdelivered in a different way to
set them up for success.
All right, the second one ishow could I have approached?
ADAM SALGAT (18:38):
this differently.
Sounds like another great onefor after action reflection,
right.
So it's not about beatingyourself up, but it's about
learning.
So you're looking at it inthrough that lens of okay, I
could approach this differentlythe next time and not wish you
could go back and change things.
KATIE TROTTER (18:55):
Right.
And then there's also aquestion that I like to ask
sometimes, which is whatassumptions did I make that may
not have been true.
ADAM SALGAT (19:03):
That can be a big one too.
We all carry assumptions intoconversations and into decisions
, and they can really shape howthings play out right.
KATIE TROTTER (19:12):
And Adam a great one could be.
What can I learn from this?
Regardless of who was right andI like this one a lot because
it shifts the focus from winningto learning- that reminds me of
a lot of the stereotypicalconversations that is depicted
on television and TV betweenhusband and wife.
Right, yes, yes.
(19:34):
The goal is to win.
The goal is to see who iscorrect as opposed to hey.
How do we move forward fromthis?
ADAM SALGAT (19:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
And what's one of the last ones?
KATIE TROTTER (19:44):
How do I want to show up next time?
And this one's great, becauseyou've taken that gap time to
really focus on what is myintention.
And then you're thinking intothe future.
How do I want to move forward?
How do I want to show up?
ADAM SALGAT (19:57):
well, Thank you for sharing those, and I can see
how asking even one of themcould completely change how
someone processes a tough moment.
Before we wrap up, I want totouch on something really
important.
You've told me before thatownership and these skills in
(20:17):
general isn't about perfection.
Why is that reminder socritical?
KATIE TROTTER (20:23):
Because we are all going to mess up.
We are all human and ownershipisn't about always getting it
right.
Like you said, the skills ingeneral are not about always
getting it right.
It's about being willing toreflect, to learn and then to
get back up and try again, andthat's what builds resilience
and respect.
ADAM SALGAT (20:42):
Yeah, I think so, and I think it builds trust
right.
KATIE TROTTER (20:44):
Absolutely yeah.
ADAM SALGAT (20:47):
So there you have it.
A healthy ownership mindsetisn't about blame, it's about
growth.
It's about choosing how youshow up even when things go
wrong.
It's about growth.
It's about choosing how youshow up even when things go
wrong.
Katie, let's hone it down toone level up opportunity for our
listeners to focus on afterlistening to this audio cast.
KATIE TROTTER (21:05):
I'd encourage people to think about a recent
situation that didn't go the waythat they wanted and, instead
of asking whose fault was it,have them try asking what can I
own here?
Just see what opens up when youstart to make that shift from
blame to ownership.
ADAM SALGAT (21:20):
The ownership mindset is something that is
talked about in our OurCommunity Serves class.
Can you tell us more about that?
And, as an alumni, if there'salumni out there who have taken
Our Community, listens, this isthe next class to take, is that
right?
KATIE TROTTER (21:34):
Yeah, our Community Serves is a two-day
class that talks about behaviorsand mindsets that help us to
shift from a me-centric cultureto a we-centric culture, and
ownership is just one of fivemindsets that we explore that
really improve and increaseaccountability.
ADAM SALGAT (21:52):
Got it.
If you're interested in takingan Our Community Serves class,
we have classes availablethroughout all of our regional
learning hubs and you can findthose on chapmancommunitiesorg.
Katie, thank you again for yourinsights and your encouragement
.
KATIE TROTTER (22:06):
Thanks for having me, adam.
I always enjoy getting to havethese conversations with you and
I look forward to next time.
ADAM SALGAT (22:12):
And to our listeners.
If this episode has resonatedwith you, I encourage you to
share it with a colleague or afriend, and don't forget to
subscribe Until next time.
I'm inviting you to walk yourpath with intention, because you
are the message.
Take care of my friends.
Thank you.
Of course, these are great questions to ask
yourself when you're in a toughsituation and want to grow from
it.
For example, what was Ipretending not to know in this
situation?
ADAM SALGAT (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Class From
Knowledge to Action, the audiocast that helps Chapman
Foundation alumni continue thejourney of applying the skills
they've built and turning theminto practical, intentional
actions for everyday life.
I'm your host, adam Solgut, andtoday we're diving into a
mindset shift that can changehow you lead, how you relate and
(00:33):
how you grow, even when thingsgo wrong and it's not your fault
.
If you've ever found yourselfthinking why should I be the one
to fix this?
Or this isn't my responsibility, or a personal favorite that
I've heard people use, thatsounds like a you problem.
This episode is going toexplain that staying in that
(00:54):
mindset eliminates opportunitiesfor growth, and then we'll give
you ways to help you get pastthat and into what today's
episode is all about.
And into what today's episodeis all about the ownership
mindset, what it is, what it'snot, and how it can help you
(01:15):
grow in any situation.
Joining me today again whichI'm very happy to have her back
is Katie Trotter, chief ProgramOfficer at the Chapman
Foundation for CaringCommunities.
Katie, welcome back.
KATIE TROTTER (01:21):
Thanks, adam.
I'm really glad to be heretoday.
This topic is one that I'veseen make a real difference, not
just in personal growth, but inhow teams function and trust
each other, so I'm lookingforward to talking about it more
.
ADAM SALGAT (01:33):
All right.
Well, let's get started withsome basics.
Katie, you wrote a blog on thistopic and in there you made a
really important distinction.
Ownership isn't about blame.
Can you unpack that a littlebit for us?
KATIE TROTTER (01:53):
Absolutely.
A lot of people hear ownershipand think it means taking the
fall or admitting fault, butthat's not what we're talking
about here.
Ownership is about askingwhat's my role in this or in
those other moments.
Just how do I want to respond?
It's about choosing growth overdefensiveness.
Even when something isn't yourfault, you still have power in
how you show up.
ADAM SALGAT (02:11):
That is a powerful shift, and I say that because of
a few reasons.
The idea of taking ownershipand that it means taking the
blame hits kind of hard With me.
Anyway, there was a point in mycareer where I took everything
as my fault, thinking exactlywhat you said that ownership
meant taking the fall.
KATIE TROTTER (02:30):
Yeah, and when you get stuck in that space,
adam, I'm curious, like, whatkind of impact did that have on
you?
ADAM SALGAT (02:35):
Yeah, for me it wrecked my confidence.
It made me question even thesimplest of choices, things that
I would never question becauseI've had years of experience and
have the gut to do it.
But in the end, questioningthat confidence led to apathy
and low production.
But I got through that by usingsome of the tools that we teach
.
So I'd love for us to getstarted and start looking at
(02:57):
those.
In my opening, I made a fewstatements there, statements
that can keep people stuck.
Statements around the idea ofwhy should I be the one to fix
this?
This isn't my responsibility or, like I said, one of my
favorites.
That sounds like a you problemTo me.
Those are classic phrases, likeI said, that illustrate
deflecting responsibility, butdoing that keeps us stuck.
(03:19):
Can you give an example of whatthat can look like?
KATIE TROTTER (03:22):
Yeah, let's just say you have a project that
you're working on and itcompletely goes sideways.
And the very first thought thatyou have might be well, I wasn't
the one who dropped the ball,and that might be true.
But if we stop there, we'remissing the chance to ask hey,
what could I have donedifferently, or how might I be
able to help this go better thenext time.
And we can do this sometimesbecause deflection feels safe.
(03:46):
But at the same time, it reallycan limit growth and I
sometimes like to think oftaking ownership like working
out.
Logically, it makes sense thatit would be good for us to do,
but actually doing it takes alot of hard work and can
sometimes be a little bituncomfortable, and it requires
discipline.
Now, there's no doubt in mymind that it's often much easier
(04:08):
when things go wrong to noticewhat other people did wrong, who
let us down, who underperformed.
But when we let ourselves stayI think the word you used, adam,
was stuck when we let ourselvesstay stuck in that space, we're
really denying ourselves agrowth opportunity.
ADAM SALGAT (04:23):
That analogy of thinking about this as working
out I really love, because manytimes it's hard to go work out,
in that it's hard to get itstarted, but by the time you're
done working out, I don't knowabout the rest of you, but I've
almost never finished theworkout and said, man, I hated
that, I just did that.
Yes.
KATIE TROTTER (04:40):
Right Point.
ADAM SALGAT (04:41):
Almost this euphoria, knowing that I did
something to improve my body,improve my health.
And so, if we think about it inthe same context, you're doing
something to improve your career, improve your mindset Right.
KATIE TROTTER (04:53):
Yeah, and I sometimes like to use the term.
It's a level up opportunityRight In these moments.
How can I be looking for a waythat I can continue to develop
and grow and reach that nextlevel can?
ADAM SALGAT (05:03):
continue to develop and grow and reach that next
level.
Keep going down that path.
You've presented the ideabefore that even if it is
someone else's fault thatthey're 98% responsible, there's
still 2% we can own.
Why do you find that sopowerful?
KATIE TROTTER (05:16):
I think this is such an important concept
because it's within that 2%where the real learning starts
to happen.
It's there where we can shiftfrom being passive recipients of
circumstances to activeparticipants in our own
development.
ADAM SALGAT (05:32):
Katie, do you have an example you could give us,
potentially like a real lifeexample, to help us understand
better about that?
2%.
KATIE TROTTER (05:40):
Yeah, I have a young woman that I was mentoring
we will, for the purpose ofthis audio cast, call her Jane
and Jane had been working on agroup project.
She was staying up late,getting all of her work done,
double checking and looking forways that she could improve her
end of the presentation, makingsure that everything was really
at a high level.
(06:01):
At a high level, and as she wasgoing along, she had a partner
that was working in the groupwho was consistently missing
deadlines and by the time theend product came out, it was
definitely at a lower level ofperformance than what was
anticipated for the group.
So that had an overall impacton everybody's final product.
And what I really appreciatedor admired about Jane was that
(06:22):
when we had our meeting or kindof talking through that process,
she could have chosen to focuson the 98, right.
She had met the deadlines.
She held her work product up toa really high standard.
There was obviously a person inthe group who had a very
negative impact on the end.
We're not debating that.
But Jane didn't want to saystuck on ruminating in that
(06:42):
space, right?
Instead, what she did was lookfor hey, what's my 2%?
How do I not waste thisopportunity and let it go by
without learning anything.
So instead Jane started askingherself questions around.
Hey, I wonder how I might havebeen able to set expectations
more clearly.
Or I wonder what it would looklike to better be a supportive
participant when I'm partneringwith other people on a team.
(07:04):
I was just blown away by seeinghow she shifted from
frustration over this area shecouldn't control to feeling
really empowered.
Thinking about that 2%.
ADAM SALGAT (07:15):
That is wonderful, yeah, because I think it'd be
very easy right to sit in thatspace and kind of say I'm just
upset and mad at this person andthey brought us down, but
instead she's taking theopportunity to say maybe I could
have supported them differently, and I think that's a great
opportunity to really, you know,talk about exactly what we're
talking about here.
(07:35):
She took that 2% and is lookingat it.
So, now that we've decided tolook for that 2%, you mentioned
in your blog that you describe amoment that follows as the gap.
So, using that example you justshared, the gap is that time
between when something happensand our response to it.
Tell me a little bit more aboutwhy that space is important and
(07:56):
how Jane had opportunity to usethe gap here.
KATIE TROTTER (08:00):
Yes, this is where all the good stuff lives,
adam.
There's this gap where we get achance to do a few things like
reflect on everything that'shappened and, in that moment,
build intention.
What is it that's mostimportant to me right now?
What do I want to take fromthis?
And do that with a lot of focusso that you're able to grow and
learn and develop.
(08:21):
But when we ignore that gap, wesometimes just react
automatically, we give away ourpower in that space, right,
we're just a victim of ourcircumstance.
And when we really can shiftfrom that to pausing and
choosing our response, that'swhen we really step into
ownership.
And, as we've already talkedabout, it's not always easy, but
it's really where realleadership begins.
(08:41):
Adam, I do want to say there'sthis element that we touched on
briefly, but taking this mindsetof ownership doesn't mean that
we're taking responsibility awayfrom somebody else who did the
98, right.
So you might have somebody whoreally does have a challenge.
They didn't meet theirperformance goals, they didn't
deliver on a promise that theyhad made, whatever that might
look like.
(09:01):
I just like to separate thosetwo out because it's not like
Jane was saying I'm 100%responsible for what happened,
right?
So she's really just focusingon the area she can control.
ADAM SALGAT (09:12):
And so the idea of her being able to control how
she maybe supports someone issomething she can look at as a
potential growth opportunity forherself in the future.
KATIE TROTTER (09:21):
Yes, absolutely.
ADAM SALGAT (09:23):
In the blog that you wrote on this subject.
One of my favorite parts is howyou connected ownership to
trust.
Tell me more about that.
KATIE TROTTER (09:31):
Yeah, when leaders model ownership, it
creates psychological safety,right.
It's showing your team thatit's okay to be human, to make
mistakes and to learn from them,and that's when you really
start to build a culture wherepeople can feel safe to speak up
and take risks right, they knowthat they're not going to be
blamed, they'll be supported,and it kind of makes sense if
(09:51):
you think about the fact thatyou have a group of humans all
trying to work towards a commonmission or achieve a common
project.
We know humans make mistakes,so the idea of taking ownership
is just how do we model that ina way that allows people to feel
like we can just acknowledge itand move forward?
ADAM SALGAT (10:07):
And I think modeling that gives the
opportunity for someone whotruly is looking at this
reflectively and seeing howyou're taking responsibility as
a leader, to then say tothemselves, wow, I did not do
maybe what I said I was going todo or what I did, and give them
opportunity to grow, to say,okay, I need to take ownership
of what I said I was going to do.
(10:29):
There is that growthopportunity and that's what
we're talking about here, katie.
I am curious, though, abouttrust, and I want you to touch
on you know, for you as a leaderpersonally, why do you find
that important?
What does cultivating trustamongst the team that you lead
do for you?
KATIE TROTTER (10:49):
Adam, I don't want to overstate this, but I
feel like trust just makeseverything work better.
It cuts down on friction, itmakes the times that we
collaborate more enjoyable andit really helps us stay focused
on what actually matters insteadof getting caught up in
defensiveness or doubt.
If we're working on a teamtogether and we have to
(11:09):
constantly be questioningsomebody's motives or a hidden
agenda or whether they'reactually going to do what they
said they were going to do, thattakes up so much of our energy.
That would be better servedbeing really targeted on the
goals that we're trying toachieve.
ADAM SALGAT (11:22):
Trust is something that our organization really
focuses on in our leadershipclass, Our Community Transforms.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
KATIE TROTTER (11:31):
Yeah, in transforms, we really talk about
not just, hey, trust is reallyimportant, but breaking it down
to what are the behaviors andelements that go into building
and maintaining a trusting workenvironment.
Because it's easy enough tojust say, hey, this is important
, but we really want to walkthrough what are some tangible
tools that we can take back toour teams.
ADAM SALGAT (11:51):
So, speaking of some tangible tools, this is
exactly where I want to get tonow, as we start to talk about
shifting into an ownershipmindset.
I mean, we've brought up someexamples and we've talked about
how to do this a bit, but let'sgive some more concrete examples
.
So in your blog, you offer somequestions.
Can you go through these andtouch on them a little bit?
KATIE TROTTER (12:13):
Yeah, let's just start with three, adam.
The first one here is just whatpart of this can I own?
That's kind of scanning forthat 2%.
I'll be honest, sometimesmine's closer to the 70, 80, 90%
.
Right, but whatever thesituation, just looking at what
are the parts in this that weremy responsibility that I might
have dropped the ball on Gotcha.
(12:36):
The second one is what's my rolein this dynamic?
And sometimes it can be alittle bit nuanced because
technically, something might nothave your name next to it with
a sense of ownership, but youmight still play a role.
Were you in charge of providingresources and information, were
you in a project managementrole, and maybe you didn't
provide some of the guidance orreminders you typically would
have.
So I think that's a helpful wayto kind of look at it a little
bit differently.
And then the third one, whichis one of my favorites, is just
(12:59):
what do I want to have be trueabout how I handle this?
And what I love about this oneis this gets back to regardless
of what situation I'm in,regardless of what percentage of
the role I played in it, whatI'm asking is who do I want to
be in this moment?
Because that's how I want toshow up in my response.
ADAM SALGAT (13:16):
I like number two there about the what is my role
in this dynamic, because itreminds me a lot of the
opportunity as a leader to say,okay, my name is not necessarily
on this project, but I am theleader of the organization, or I
am the leader of thisdepartment and my opportunity to
support this and make sure it'scoming along the way that it
(13:37):
needs to for the organization onthe whole is a good reminder to
say, okay, my name might not beon it and I might not be like
98% responsible for it, but I amresponsible in some ways.
KATIE TROTTER (13:50):
Yes, Adam, that's a great example of how these
types of questions can reallyhelp shift us from frustration
to action.
They're quite simple in theirform, but incredibly powerful.
ADAM SALGAT (14:01):
This reminds me of a recent experience I had and I
was wondering do you mind if Ishare a bit of a personal
example, a personal story here?
KATIE TROTTER (14:09):
Yeah, go for it.
ADAM SALGAT (14:11):
So a little while back I sent an email to some
teammates I don't typically workwith very often.
My intention was to present anidea for something we could work
on in the future, and theinitial email was kind of long
and detailed.
The initial responses that Igot back asked me a couple
questions and caused me toreflect.
I realized I may haveoverwhelmed them or introduced
(14:34):
plans that didn't align with ourcurrent strategy.
Even though I tried to softenthe message with my word choices
, I could sense someapprehension.
So I sat back and I askedmyself how could I have done
this better?
That's when I started thinkingabout my teammates' behavioral
tendencies, along with the workthat they might already have on
(14:56):
their plates.
Even though it wasn't myintention to overwhelm them, the
amount of detail I includedcould easily have been taken
that way.
The bullet point lists Iincluded might have appeared as
to-do lists instead of theirintention as just a list of
ideas, bullet it out.
I took the opportunity toreflect on what part of this
(15:16):
situation I could own and I'llbe honest, a younger version of
me might have said hey, thisisn't my fault how they
perceived it.
I covered my bases, I used thewords I felt painted the right
picture in my head.
I covered my bases, I used thewords that I felt painted the
right picture in my head, but,as you've said, that mindset
doesn't help us grow, doesn'thelp us move forward.
So by stepping back and askingsome of those ownership
(15:43):
questions, I realized I couldbetter connect with the team and
present ideas more thoughtfullyin the future.
KATIE TROTTER (15:46):
Adam, that's such a great example.
It really shows how ownershipisn't about beating yourself up
or just getting mad at otherpeople right, it's really about
being curious and intentional.
And when I think about some ofthose shifts that you made,
right, considering it throughtheir preferred way of
communicating with theirbehavioral tendency, or how it
might have been interpreteddifferently.
What I love about that is thatyou weren't fixated on did I
(16:09):
technically do something wrong?
Right, instead, you werelooking for hey, if we're in the
situation anyway, where's mytwo percent level up opportunity
?
Right?
Don't want to waste this momentor let it go by without seeing.
Is there a way that I canimprove from this?
And it's in those small shiftsthat teams and co-workers really
build a lot of trust andconnection over time.
ADAM SALGAT (16:31):
And I will say I appreciate everything you said
there and I want to say it's noteasy to get to the point of
reflecting back and looking howdo I maybe do this differently?
And then even also taking theopportunity to talk with those
teammates about that, emailperson to person to kind of say,
hey, let's now talk throughthis.
(16:52):
Because I feel like yourresponse brought up some
apprehension or brought up maybean anxiety, and I want to make
sure that that wasn't where Iwas going with it and I want to
make sure you understand how wecan move forward and let's work
on that together.
And it was great conversationsto have.
But it does make me realizenext time, what can I do
differently?
KATIE TROTTER (17:12):
And Adam with that.
That's just another way thatteams continue to build in that
trust space, right?
Hey, if we did have thismiscommunication or we did have
things not go the way that wethought they would, how great
that we can just pick up thephone and have a conversation
about it or set up a meeting andtalk it through, so that that
energy can be used towards againthose end goals and the
important work thatorganizations are trying to
achieve.
ADAM SALGAT (17:33):
Yep, absolutely.
I'd love to take the time toprovide our listeners with some
more ways to kind of help shifttheir perspective.
Do you have any more questionsthat they could jot down?
Hopefully you know, if they'renot driving, maybe listening at
their desktop that they couldjot down and ponder.
KATIE TROTTER (17:50):
Of course, these are great questions to ask
yourself when you're in a toughsituation and want to grow from
it.
For example, one question mightbe what was I pretending not to
know in this situation?
ADAM SALGAT (18:03):
Man, right away, you're calling us out, right?
But it's true, sometimes weignore red flags or avoid the
truth because it's easier in themoment to just ignore them,
right?
So we just ignore the idea thatmaybe we see something and
we're like, oh no, I don't wantto believe that right now.
KATIE TROTTER (18:18):
Yeah, either some concept that we want to avoid
or some reality that we wouldprefer wasn't there, and
sometimes just nuances of theperson we're interacting with.
Right, we know that somebodyprefers to be communicated with
a certain way, or needed thingsdelivered in a different way to
set them up for success.
All right, the second one ishow could I have approached?
ADAM SALGAT (18:38):
this differently.
Sounds like another great onefor after action reflection,
right.
So it's not about beatingyourself up, but it's about
learning.
So you're looking at it inthrough that lens of okay, I
could approach this differentlythe next time and not wish you
could go back and change things.
KATIE TROTTER (18:55):
Right.
And then there's also aquestion that I like to ask
sometimes, which is whatassumptions did I make that may
not have been true.
ADAM SALGAT (19:03):
That can be a big one too.
We all carry assumptions intoconversations and into decisions
, and they can really shape howthings play out right.
KATIE TROTTER (19:12):
And Adam a great one could be.
What can I learn from this?
Regardless of who was right andI like this one a lot because
it shifts the focus from winningto learning- that reminds me of
a lot of the stereotypicalconversations that is depicted
on television and TV betweenhusband and wife.
Right, yes, yes.
(19:34):
The goal is to win.
The goal is to see who iscorrect as opposed to hey.
How do we move forward fromthis?
ADAM SALGAT (19:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
And what's one of the last ones?
KATIE TROTTER (19:44):
How do I want to show up next time?
And this one's great, becauseyou've taken that gap time to
really focus on what is myintention.
And then you're thinking intothe future.
How do I want to move forward?
How do I want to show up?
ADAM SALGAT (19:57):
well, Thank you for sharing those, and I can see
how asking even one of themcould completely change how
someone processes a tough moment.
Before we wrap up, I want totouch on something really
important.
You've told me before thatownership and these skills in
(20:17):
general isn't about perfection.
Why is that reminder socritical?
KATIE TROTTER (20:23):
Because we are all going to mess up.
We are all human and ownershipisn't about always getting it
right.
Like you said, the skills ingeneral are not about always
getting it right.
It's about being willing toreflect, to learn and then to
get back up and try again, andthat's what builds resilience
and respect.
ADAM SALGAT (20:42):
Yeah, I think so, and I think it builds trust
right.
KATIE TROTTER (20:44):
Absolutely yeah.
ADAM SALGAT (20:47):
So there you have it.
A healthy ownership mindsetisn't about blame, it's about
growth.
It's about choosing how youshow up even when things go
wrong.
It's about growth.
It's about choosing how youshow up even when things go
wrong.
Katie, let's hone it down toone level up opportunity for our
listeners to focus on afterlistening to this audio cast.
KATIE TROTTER (21:05):
I'd encourage people to think about a recent
situation that didn't go the waythat they wanted and, instead
of asking whose fault was it,have them try asking what can I
own here?
Just see what opens up when youstart to make that shift from
blame to ownership.
ADAM SALGAT (21:20):
The ownership mindset is something that is
talked about in our OurCommunity Serves class.
Can you tell us more about that?
And, as an alumni, if there'salumni out there who have taken
Our Community, listens, this isthe next class to take, is that
right?
KATIE TROTTER (21:34):
Yeah, our Community Serves is a two-day
class that talks about behaviorsand mindsets that help us to
shift from a me-centric cultureto a we-centric culture, and
ownership is just one of fivemindsets that we explore that
really improve and increaseaccountability.
ADAM SALGAT (21:52):
Got it.
If you're interested in takingan Our Community Serves class,
we have classes availablethroughout all of our regional
learning hubs and you can findthose on chapmancommunitiesorg.
Katie, thank you again for yourinsights and your encouragement
.
KATIE TROTTER (22:06):
Thanks for having me, adam.
I always enjoy getting to havethese conversations with you and
I look forward to next time.
ADAM SALGAT (22:12):
And to our listeners.
If this episode has resonatedwith you, I encourage you to
share it with a colleague or afriend, and don't forget to
subscribe Until next time.
I'm inviting you to walk yourpath with intention, because you
are the message.
Take care of my friends.
Thank you.
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