September 16, 2025 • 21 mins
Leadership doesn’t require perfection. It demands authenticity.
In this episode, Katie Trotter, Chief Program Officer at the Chapman Foundation, explores how leaders can effectively rebuild trust after making mistakes.
Katie shares that leadership is less about titles and more about influence, which is shaped through small, intentional actions that set the tone for those around us.
She introduces the concept of being chronically human, and points out that when leaders pretend to have it all together, they miss opportunities for genuine connection.
The conversation dives into the value of learning from missteps, and Katie outlines a practical five-step process for repairing trust:
- Regulate emotions
- Name the behavior
- Identify better choices
- Engage in conversation
- Listen to understand
Whether you're managing a team or navigating personal relationships, this episode offers actionable insights to help you lead with intention and care.
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BLOG: https://www.chapmancommunities.org/rebuilding-trust-how-to-be-a-good-leader-even-when-you-mess-up/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Katie Trotter (00:02):
And that's why it's so important for us to
remember that leadership doesn'trequire perfection.
Adam Salgat (00:10):
Welcome to Beyond the Class from knowledge to
action, the audio cast thathelps Chapman Foundation alumni
continue the journey of applyingthe skills they've built and
turning them into practical,intentional actions for everyday
life.
Built and turning them intopractical, intentional actions
for everyday life.
I'm your host, adam Salga, andtoday we're talking about
something every leader facesmessing up, whether it's a
(00:32):
misstep in communication, adecision that didn't land well
or a moment of missed connection.
Mistakes happen, but what canseparate good leaders from the
great ones is how they respond.
Joining me today is KatieTrotter, chief Program Officer
at the Chapman Foundation.
Katie, welcome back.
Katie Trotter (00:53):
Thanks, Adam.
I'm really excited to be hereand looking forward to talking
about this topic.
It's one that applies to everyleader, every human, because
we're all familiar with thatmoment of messing up.
Adam Salgat (01:06):
Absolutely are, and it's typically not a very fun
moment.
So let's get through ways thatwe can make it a learning
opportunity, right?
Katie Trotter (01:15):
Absolutely.
Adam Salgat (01:16):
So, as a leader you mentioned in your blog, you say
that leadership carries weight.
It's more than making decisionsor holding a title.
It's about influence.
Can you expand on that for me?
Katie Trotter (01:29):
Yes, leaders set the tone in any environment that
they're in, and they areconstantly modeling what they
have for their expectations, andwe do this in the way that we
show up each day.
It includes things like ourattitude or the level of
preparedness that we show upeach day.
It includes things like ourattitude or the level of
preparedness that we have whenwe enter into a space.
We also do it in how wecommunicate, the way that we
(01:51):
might react or respond todifferent teammates.
All of these small moments areconstantly shaping the cultures
around us, whether we're leadingwithin a team or a family or
even just a group of volunteersthat have just met.
All of these actions, as leader, carries influence.
Now, sometimes, what you seeare leaders who are really
(02:12):
intentional about those smallmoments, and that type of
intentional leadership reallyfosters trust and collaboration.
It helps to create environmentswhere people feel safe, seen and
motivated.
It helps to create environmentswhere people feel safe, seen
and motivated, and some of usare in a space where we might be
leading a really large group ofpeople.
It might be a huge organizationor a large group.
(02:34):
Some people are even leading onthe global stage, but it
doesn't have to be the case foreveryone.
All of us have the opportunityto impact and influence those
smaller cultures around us, andthat's really what we want to
focus on.
How do we use intention andinfluence so that we're
impacting people through ourchoices and our responses and
(02:55):
really just the way we carry ourpresence?
Adam Salgat (02:58):
You mentioned there about this being small,
intentional actions and even ifyou are leading a global company
, your interactions are stillpersonal, right?
So kind of that ripple effectof those smaller interactions
lead to global change orlarge-scale change at times.
Katie Trotter (03:17):
That's a great point, right.
You're having these smallinteractions that impact a small
group of people that then goout into different groups and,
yes, I love that, that idea ofthat ripple effect.
Adam Salgat (03:27):
One of my favorite phrases from your blog is
chronically human.
What does that mean in contextto leadership?
And give me a little moremeaning around it also.
Katie Trotter (03:37):
Yes, I love that term and I mentioned previously
that a leader sets the tone,models expectations and really
helps to shape the culture, andthat's why it's so important for
us to remember that leadershipdoesn't require perfection.
In fact, all of us are going tohave some off days or a bad day
.
We don't really show up the waythat we wanted to, and when we
(04:00):
just try to pretend like we haveit all together in those
moments, that can actuallysometimes get in the way of our
ability to connect with others.
Some of the best leaders I'veseen are really able to embrace
their full humanity right, boththeir strengths and also their
blind spots or growthopportunities.
I love this concept of beingchronically human because it
(04:23):
means that we have toacknowledge how complex human
beings are.
We carry with us our gifts, ourcreativity and our insights,
but all of those beautiful,wonderful things live alongside
our pride and our fear and thosemistakes that we make.
But the more honest we can bewith ourselves, the more
(04:44):
connected and authentic ourleadership can become.
Adam Salgat (04:47):
That is such a great reminder of everything
that we carry as a human.
So that is why I reallyconnected with the idea of
chronically human.
Right, we can't get away fromthe great stuff, we can't get
away from the difficult stuff.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout what happens when we do
mess up.
I want to bring up and try toillustrate a graphic that I saw
(05:10):
on Instagram.
It's a simple drawing and atthe top it read how much you
learn.
Then below it there's threeoutline drawings of the human
brain.
The first brain, all the way tothe left, is colored in about
25%, from the bottom up, andunder it it's written from
(05:30):
theory, implying that how muchwe learn is roughly 25% from
theory.
The second brain is colored inabout 50% and says from practice
.
And lastly, the third brain iscolored in about 85% and says
from mistakes, implying that howmuch we learn is often done so
(05:51):
through the mistakes that wemake.
So when you see a graphic likethat, katie, tell me a little
bit about how it makes you feel,and can you talk about that
concept?
Katie Trotter (06:00):
That's such a great visual to keep in mind,
adam.
I think that oftentimes when wefirst experience a mistake, we
get so caught up in why it waswrong how did we do that?
How do we maybe even cover itup or be defensive about it,
when, really, if we can shift itto look at mistakes as a
learning opportunity?
I feel like that image could beplastered among a lot of
(06:22):
different offices and homespaces for people as a great
reminder.
Adam Salgat (06:25):
Yeah, I felt like it was a really solid reminder.
It's why I wanted to bring itup in this discussion.
So when we start thinking aboutwhen we mess up, know that we
can learn from it.
We can get better from it.
In your blog, you state thatavoiding accountability, however
, erodes trust.
So if we make that mistake andwe avoid the accountability, I
(06:47):
imagine first of all we'remissing opportunities for growth
and then, on top of that, we'reeroding trust.
What does accountability looklike in this kind of practice?
What do we need to?
Katie Trotter (06:57):
do, adam?
Every leader does make mistakes.
And guess what?
Everyone on your team knowsthat you are human.
So if you're never takingaccountability, if you're never
owning up, it's not that peopleare assuming you're perfect,
right.
It leaves them wondering, orthere being some uncertainty, or
, as you mentioned, some of thatdistrust starts to build.
(07:19):
So it's not that we're tryingto be perfect, it's that we're
wanting to be intentional abouthow we respond in those moments
where we're not perfect.
And when we do avoid thataccountability and it starts to
erode that trust, right, itreally starts to break down that
team dynamic and seep into theculture, whereas, on the flip
(07:46):
side, if we can really step intoowning our missteps, modeling
some of that humility andclarity can really start making
some space for repair and thatrebuilding of trust.
All of that starts with firstacknowledging the impact of our
actions, and the goal is not todo that with a sense of shame or
guilt, but really with thathonesty To your point, adam,
from that image, to be owningthat growth opportunity.
What did I learn from this?
And being able to haveconversations around that?
Adam Salgat (08:05):
We've talked a lot about theory here a little bit,
but, as we like to do here onthe audio cast, can we get a
real life example from you,where maybe something you lived
or you know someone who's livedit, and can we step through that
a little bit?
Katie Trotter (08:17):
If I heard you right, you're asking me to share
when I've messed up.
Adam Salgat (08:20):
Oh yeah, I guess that's another way to put it,
yeah that's right.
Katie Trotter (08:25):
Yeah, luckily I am not perfect, so I do have a
few examples we could pull from.
Adam Salgat (08:28):
Well, tell me more about that.
Katie Trotter (08:30):
We don't have enough time in the podcast, but
one example that I can give iswhen I was leading a large group
project.
It had a lot of moving pieces, alot of different team members
were all involved and at theparticular time that we were
working on this project, I had alot of extra transition and
stress that was happening.
I had really stepped back anddifferent team members were
(08:52):
taking ownership, makingdecisions, driving things
forward, and it felt likeeverything was moving along very
comfortably and efficiently.
Right as the event was gettingto be coming up on my calendar
right, it's the next week I'mseeing it crop up.
All of a sudden I had a momentof oh, this is happening really
quickly.
I really wish that I'd stayedmore engaged, I wish I knew more
(09:14):
of the details and, withoutgiving a pause, I hopped onto my
email, started shooting offmessages you can appreciate this
, adam Friday afternoon askingfor all of these details that
I'm pretty sure were provided inprevious emails and
communications that I probablymissed in my hurry, kind of just
creating this sense of urgencyand chaos for other team members
(09:37):
.
Adam Salgat (09:38):
Yeah, so it sounds like you're definitely in a
state of heightened emotion, soyour logic's a little bit out
the window.
What can you do and that's whatwe're going to step into now is
five steps to repair andrebuild trust, and this sounds
like step number one in yourstory.
Here is a great spot to start,so tell us what step number one
is and go from there.
Katie Trotter (09:59):
So step one is regulating your emotions, just
taking that moment to calm yournervous system so that you're
able to really engage withclarity.
You can't learn anything ifyou're so focused on feeling
shame and guilt or defensivenessthat really takes up so much of
your energy towards somethingthat's not going to be helpful
or productive.
Adam Salgat (10:20):
You mentioned about taking that deep breath.
I know Misty Jenks, our CEO,and a prior audio cast mentioned
that that is a great way, likescientifically, to get your body
to start to calm.
Have you ever heard that?
And then any other tips thatyou might have, even personal
ones, that you do, to reach thatstate of calm, to get those
(10:40):
emotions regulated?
Katie Trotter (10:42):
Yeah, I know there are some people who really
find it helpful to go for ashort walk just to kind of have
some of that physical energy outof their body.
I do not have the sciencebehind this, adam, but for me I
like to remind myself that thoseemotions that I'm feeling, the
shame, the guilt, the feelingsof inadequacy, whatever those
might be just reminding myself,those aren't helping me become
(11:04):
the leader that I want to be,and so that reframe sometimes
allows me to just get out ofthat stuck space and be thinking
about what I want to do next.
Adam Salgat (11:12):
Okay, so thinking about what you want to do next,
let's move on to step number two, step number three, and then do
your best to kind of continuealong your story and your
example.
Katie Trotter (11:24):
So step number two is naming the behavior.
This is the opportunity for usto be really honest about what
happened.
And again, this is not aboutstaying in all those crappy
feelings.
It's really about how do wetake ownership in this space.
So for me, it was being able toarticulate I know that I sent
email communication without anycontext about why I was asking
(11:46):
those questions.
The timing of when it was sentwas very inconvenient for all
the people who'd been working sohard on the project.
Now, when you look at the thirdstep, this part's really
important and I think it oftengets missed.
And this is about naming thebetter choice, sharing what you
wish you had done differently.
And this shows a few differentthings for the person you're
(12:06):
talking to.
One it shows growth.
It shows that not only yourealized you messed up, but that
you see a better path forward.
The other part that I likeabout it is that it kind of
gives some accountability fordown the road, they now know
what to expect from you the nexttime something like this
happens.
So if I've already told youthat I'm going to show up
differently next time and whatthat will look like, I feel like
(12:29):
that makes me feel a little bitmore accountable to behaving
differently in the next time.
Adam Salgat (12:34):
I think those are great reminders and I love the
way that you stepped throughboth of those and they in your
scenario.
It sounds like what would thatspecific better choice for you?
What would that look like?
Katie Trotter (12:45):
Well, I'd like to say that, ideally, what I would
have said is that from the verybeginning of the project, I
would have stayed more engagedand followed along on the
timeline, noting that there weresome things in that moment that
were outside, some things inthat moment that were outside of
my control that created thatkind of last minute urgency.
The better choice that I statedthen was, hey, I should have
picked up the phone to call,just so they could hear the tone
(13:06):
, to understand why it was thatI was asking for some
information that may have comethrough earlier on that I might
have missed, and then to givethem a little bit of a head
start on when I needed it by.
Instead of this, I have allthese questions period right.
Really saying, even if I couldget this by Sunday evening, it
would be helpful when I'mtraveling.
Adam Salgat (13:24):
That's great, yeah, so I mean, you really look at
the behavior and you choose.
Okay, I can do this differentlynext time.
We have two more steps toconsider, though, here, and
number four is engage inconversation, meet with the
person impacted, approach withempathy and humility.
In this particular case, I'mnot sure if you needed to do
(13:45):
this, but if you did tell meabout it, if you went through
that conversation, but if youdidn't talk a little bit about
that piece and how you'd goabout it.
Katie Trotter (13:54):
Yeah and Adam, before we even get to that part.
One of the things that I thinkis helpful about step four is
that sometimes, as leaders, westop after three because it's
all things that we can dointernally in our head.
So for me, I definitely couldhave been hey, step one.
I have all of these feelings,but I've noticed that I've
messed up.
I've got myself calmed down.
(14:16):
I, in all of my greatleadership, growth and
opportunities right, take timeto reflect on that specific
behavior internally, think aboutwhat I want to do differently
next time, and then I stopBecause in my mind I've learned
from my mistake, I have a newpath forward, but what would be
really uncomfortable isadmitting my mistake to the
other person.
Adam Salgat (14:35):
That's a good point .
Katie Trotter (14:37):
So step four is really important because it is
about bringing the other personin, and this is where the trust
starts to get rebuilt.
I want to meet with the people Isent that email to, whether
it's over the phone or, ideally,in person, just to say, hey,
here's the behavior that I did,here's how I want to show up
differently and I have to beopen to hearing what they have
(14:57):
to say about that, which leadsinto step five, which is really
in that conversation and thatengaging, listening to
understand their perspective,using those reflective listening
skills that I know, adam, weteach in classes and you've
talked about on other audiocasts as well, because sometimes
what happens is that the waythat I'm trying to correct my
behavior is not something thatthey would actually appreciate,
(15:20):
or maybe I thought that theywere feeling some way based on
my mistake and I didn't get itquite right.
So four and five are kind ofthis gap, great trust-building
activity where we get to learnmore about the other person's
experience with our mistake andwe can find a new path forward
together.
Adam Salgat (15:36):
I love that reminder about it being a
conversation also because Iimmediately kind of thought
about this being confrontationand your need to be able to
confront them about somethingthat you did yourself.
But it's a reminder foreverybody out there
Confrontation is always aconversation.
That's our hope, right.
Katie Trotter (15:55):
It's such a great reminder.
Adam Salgat (15:56):
When we think about these five tips.
Obviously, with a lot of thethings that we teach, we talk
about the ability to take themoutside of the workplace, right?
So this is a model that worksanywhere.
It applies to personalrelationships too.
Katie Trotter (16:11):
Absolutely.
I would love to say thatmistakes are just kept in one
environment, but part of thatbeing chronically human means
we're making mistakes all thetime in all different
environments and, adam, I couldactually give you a great
example on that one, if we havetime.
Adam Salgat (16:25):
Yeah, I'd love to hear a personal example.
Those are always poignant forour listeners, I believe.
Katie Trotter (16:30):
So I have two daughters at home are always
poignant for our listeners, Ibelieve.
So I have two daughters at home, nine and 16 right now, and
they were very animated andsharing with me kind of like a
big story that had lots ofemotion behind it and discussion
and excitement.
And I was in one of those veryunfortunate distracted modes.
I was still thinking about thatwork project that I had going
(16:51):
on, the phone dinged, andinstead of waiting I caught my
eyes kind of diverting, you knowall of the things and just not
showing up the way that I wantto as a parent.
And in that moment I looked upand saw just the dejected looks
on both of their faces, justkind of this sense of not
feeling heard or important.
And in that moment, right, Ithink as a parent sometimes I
(17:15):
shouldn't speak for otherparents.
I will say for me.
Sometimes I can feel thisdefensiveness rise up, like the
temptation is, they should knowthat I was busy in that moment
when they came to share.
Why couldn't they wait until itwas a better time?
But that again is me notchoosing to use that learning
opportunity.
Right, I'm not going to becomea better leader or a better
parent by always dismissingthose moments.
(17:37):
So you go through all the stepsright, you're figuring out what
behavior it is and you have anopportunity to say to your kids
what I did in the moment, whichwas just I am so sorry.
That is not how I wanted torespond when you were sharing
this story with me.
Could we try it again?
That is not how I wanted torespond when you were sharing
this story with me.
Could we try it again?
And I think for me it was moreimportant for me to model for
(17:57):
them.
Here's what it looks like whenyou mess up.
Here's a new path forward.
Adam Salgat (18:02):
What I hear you explaining right at the end.
There is the opportunity foryou to show some action and in
that case you have theopportunity to do it immediately
, to kind of show them.
This is how I should have theopportunity to do it immediately
to kind of show them.
This is how I can do.
This is how I should have beenlistening to you or how I could
have been listening to you.
That's not always going to bethe case when we need to show
(18:24):
action.
But talk a little bit aboutthat.
Next step right is what are theactions we're going to take to
show this behavior change?
Katie Trotter (18:29):
It's such a great point to bring up Adam because
I could get really good atapologizing and never change my
behavior right.
And if I just keep saying sorrythat I wasn't listening, sorry
that I was distracted, sorrythat I didn't show up for you,
that trust is never going torebuild and that connection's
never going to be there.
So this action step is reallyimportant.
(18:49):
It means that the next timethey come to me with something
that they want to share, or thenext time back to my work
example I find myself kind oflast minute stressed and I'm
tempted to shoot off that Fridayafternoon email.
It means that I'm going topause and choose to act
differently in the moment.
And those are the moments thatare so critically important.
Those are the moments that areso critically important.
Adam Salgat (19:10):
I think it's a great reminder also to say you
can realize in the moment thateven if I can't adjust my
behavior directly right now, Ican ask for change from them to
say can I have five minutes so Ican give you undivided
attention?
Katie Trotter (19:25):
Oh, that's great.
I think I might write that onedown to use later, Adam.
Adam Salgat (19:29):
Oh, I'm sure you've used it before.
I might write that one down touse later.
Adam, oh, I'm sure you've usedit before.
Well, Katie, thank you so muchfor taking the time today to
talk to us about leadership andrebuilding trust when we make a
mistake.
Can you give me a level upopportunity for our listeners
out there?
Katie Trotter (19:48):
Yeah, I'd encourage people to think about
a moment where they've messed upor maybe caused harm, whether
it was intentional or not, and,instead of avoiding it, really
take a minute to ask what's onestep that you're going to take
to repair and rebuild trust.
Adam Salgat (20:03):
I love that.
So go back and listen to ourfive steps there and then also
consider what are the actionsyou're going to take after
stepping through those pieces.
Consider what are the actionsyou're going to take after
stepping through those pieces.
So, katie, if an organizationis looking to continue to
improve their leadership, whatdo we offer outside of?
Katie Trotter (20:20):
our foundational classes.
We have a variety of differentlearning sessions that are
available for organizations thatwant to continue on with this
work.
So things like we covered todayhow to be an awesome leader
even when you mess up, but wealso have a variety of other
topics around workplace culturehow to build psychological
safety and trust within yourteam and how to navigate the
change process.
(20:41):
Those are just a few examples.
Adam Salgat (20:44):
If you'd like to get in touch with us on those,
there is a link in thedescription of this audio cast
that will lead you directly toour speaker page.
You can fill out the form.
Katie, thank you so much forbeing a part of our audio cast
today.
Katie Trotter (20:57):
Thanks for having me, Adam.
It's always a pleasure.
Adam Salgat (21:00):
To our listeners.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with a colleague
or a friend, and don't forget tosubscribe.
Until next time, we're invitingyou to walk your path with
intention.
Intention, because you are themessage.
Take care, my friends.
And that's why it's so important for us to
remember that leadership doesn'trequire perfection.
Adam Salgat (00:10):
Welcome to Beyond the Class from knowledge to
action, the audio cast thathelps Chapman Foundation alumni
continue the journey of applyingthe skills they've built and
turning them into practical,intentional actions for everyday
life.
Built and turning them intopractical, intentional actions
for everyday life.
I'm your host, adam Salga, andtoday we're talking about
something every leader facesmessing up, whether it's a
(00:32):
misstep in communication, adecision that didn't land well
or a moment of missed connection.
Mistakes happen, but what canseparate good leaders from the
great ones is how they respond.
Joining me today is KatieTrotter, chief Program Officer
at the Chapman Foundation.
Katie, welcome back.
Katie Trotter (00:53):
Thanks, Adam.
I'm really excited to be hereand looking forward to talking
about this topic.
It's one that applies to everyleader, every human, because
we're all familiar with thatmoment of messing up.
Adam Salgat (01:06):
Absolutely are, and it's typically not a very fun
moment.
So let's get through ways thatwe can make it a learning
opportunity, right?
Katie Trotter (01:15):
Absolutely.
Adam Salgat (01:16):
So, as a leader you mentioned in your blog, you say
that leadership carries weight.
It's more than making decisionsor holding a title.
It's about influence.
Can you expand on that for me?
Katie Trotter (01:29):
Yes, leaders set the tone in any environment that
they're in, and they areconstantly modeling what they
have for their expectations, andwe do this in the way that we
show up each day.
It includes things like ourattitude or the level of
preparedness that we show upeach day.
It includes things like ourattitude or the level of
preparedness that we have whenwe enter into a space.
We also do it in how wecommunicate, the way that we
(01:51):
might react or respond todifferent teammates.
All of these small moments areconstantly shaping the cultures
around us, whether we're leadingwithin a team or a family or
even just a group of volunteersthat have just met.
All of these actions, as leader, carries influence.
Now, sometimes, what you seeare leaders who are really
(02:12):
intentional about those smallmoments, and that type of
intentional leadership reallyfosters trust and collaboration.
It helps to create environmentswhere people feel safe, seen and
motivated.
It helps to create environmentswhere people feel safe, seen
and motivated, and some of usare in a space where we might be
leading a really large group ofpeople.
It might be a huge organizationor a large group.
(02:34):
Some people are even leading onthe global stage, but it
doesn't have to be the case foreveryone.
All of us have the opportunityto impact and influence those
smaller cultures around us, andthat's really what we want to
focus on.
How do we use intention andinfluence so that we're
impacting people through ourchoices and our responses and
(02:55):
really just the way we carry ourpresence?
Adam Salgat (02:58):
You mentioned there about this being small,
intentional actions and even ifyou are leading a global company
, your interactions are stillpersonal, right?
So kind of that ripple effectof those smaller interactions
lead to global change orlarge-scale change at times.
Katie Trotter (03:17):
That's a great point, right.
You're having these smallinteractions that impact a small
group of people that then goout into different groups and,
yes, I love that, that idea ofthat ripple effect.
Adam Salgat (03:27):
One of my favorite phrases from your blog is
chronically human.
What does that mean in contextto leadership?
And give me a little moremeaning around it also.
Katie Trotter (03:37):
Yes, I love that term and I mentioned previously
that a leader sets the tone,models expectations and really
helps to shape the culture, andthat's why it's so important for
us to remember that leadershipdoesn't require perfection.
In fact, all of us are going tohave some off days or a bad day
.
We don't really show up the waythat we wanted to, and when we
(04:00):
just try to pretend like we haveit all together in those
moments, that can actuallysometimes get in the way of our
ability to connect with others.
Some of the best leaders I'veseen are really able to embrace
their full humanity right, boththeir strengths and also their
blind spots or growthopportunities.
I love this concept of beingchronically human because it
(04:23):
means that we have toacknowledge how complex human
beings are.
We carry with us our gifts, ourcreativity and our insights,
but all of those beautiful,wonderful things live alongside
our pride and our fear and thosemistakes that we make.
But the more honest we can bewith ourselves, the more
(04:44):
connected and authentic ourleadership can become.
Adam Salgat (04:47):
That is such a great reminder of everything
that we carry as a human.
So that is why I reallyconnected with the idea of
chronically human.
Right, we can't get away fromthe great stuff, we can't get
away from the difficult stuff.
So let's talk a little bit moreabout what happens when we do
mess up.
I want to bring up and try toillustrate a graphic that I saw
(05:10):
on Instagram.
It's a simple drawing and atthe top it read how much you
learn.
Then below it there's threeoutline drawings of the human
brain.
The first brain, all the way tothe left, is colored in about
25%, from the bottom up, andunder it it's written from
(05:30):
theory, implying that how muchwe learn is roughly 25% from
theory.
The second brain is colored inabout 50% and says from practice
.
And lastly, the third brain iscolored in about 85% and says
from mistakes, implying that howmuch we learn is often done so
(05:51):
through the mistakes that wemake.
So when you see a graphic likethat, katie, tell me a little
bit about how it makes you feel,and can you talk about that
concept?
Katie Trotter (06:00):
That's such a great visual to keep in mind,
adam.
I think that oftentimes when wefirst experience a mistake, we
get so caught up in why it waswrong how did we do that?
How do we maybe even cover itup or be defensive about it,
when, really, if we can shift itto look at mistakes as a
learning opportunity?
I feel like that image could beplastered among a lot of
(06:22):
different offices and homespaces for people as a great
reminder.
Adam Salgat (06:25):
Yeah, I felt like it was a really solid reminder.
It's why I wanted to bring itup in this discussion.
So when we start thinking aboutwhen we mess up, know that we
can learn from it.
We can get better from it.
In your blog, you state thatavoiding accountability, however
, erodes trust.
So if we make that mistake andwe avoid the accountability, I
(06:47):
imagine first of all we'remissing opportunities for growth
and then, on top of that, we'reeroding trust.
What does accountability looklike in this kind of practice?
What do we need to?
Katie Trotter (06:57):
do, adam?
Every leader does make mistakes.
And guess what?
Everyone on your team knowsthat you are human.
So if you're never takingaccountability, if you're never
owning up, it's not that peopleare assuming you're perfect,
right.
It leaves them wondering, orthere being some uncertainty, or
, as you mentioned, some of thatdistrust starts to build.
(07:19):
So it's not that we're tryingto be perfect, it's that we're
wanting to be intentional abouthow we respond in those moments
where we're not perfect.
And when we do avoid thataccountability and it starts to
erode that trust, right, itreally starts to break down that
team dynamic and seep into theculture, whereas, on the flip
(07:46):
side, if we can really step intoowning our missteps, modeling
some of that humility andclarity can really start making
some space for repair and thatrebuilding of trust.
All of that starts with firstacknowledging the impact of our
actions, and the goal is not todo that with a sense of shame or
guilt, but really with thathonesty To your point, adam,
from that image, to be owningthat growth opportunity.
What did I learn from this?
And being able to haveconversations around that?
Adam Salgat (08:05):
We've talked a lot about theory here a little bit,
but, as we like to do here onthe audio cast, can we get a
real life example from you,where maybe something you lived
or you know someone who's livedit, and can we step through that
a little bit?
Katie Trotter (08:17):
If I heard you right, you're asking me to share
when I've messed up.
Adam Salgat (08:20):
Oh yeah, I guess that's another way to put it,
yeah that's right.
Katie Trotter (08:25):
Yeah, luckily I am not perfect, so I do have a
few examples we could pull from.
Adam Salgat (08:28):
Well, tell me more about that.
Katie Trotter (08:30):
We don't have enough time in the podcast, but
one example that I can give iswhen I was leading a large group
project.
It had a lot of moving pieces, alot of different team members
were all involved and at theparticular time that we were
working on this project, I had alot of extra transition and
stress that was happening.
I had really stepped back anddifferent team members were
(08:52):
taking ownership, makingdecisions, driving things
forward, and it felt likeeverything was moving along very
comfortably and efficiently.
Right as the event was gettingto be coming up on my calendar
right, it's the next week I'mseeing it crop up.
All of a sudden I had a momentof oh, this is happening really
quickly.
I really wish that I'd stayedmore engaged, I wish I knew more
(09:14):
of the details and, withoutgiving a pause, I hopped onto my
email, started shooting offmessages you can appreciate this
, adam Friday afternoon askingfor all of these details that
I'm pretty sure were provided inprevious emails and
communications that I probablymissed in my hurry, kind of just
creating this sense of urgencyand chaos for other team members
(09:37):
.
Adam Salgat (09:38):
Yeah, so it sounds like you're definitely in a
state of heightened emotion, soyour logic's a little bit out
the window.
What can you do and that's whatwe're going to step into now is
five steps to repair andrebuild trust, and this sounds
like step number one in yourstory.
Here is a great spot to start,so tell us what step number one
is and go from there.
Katie Trotter (09:59):
So step one is regulating your emotions, just
taking that moment to calm yournervous system so that you're
able to really engage withclarity.
You can't learn anything ifyou're so focused on feeling
shame and guilt or defensivenessthat really takes up so much of
your energy towards somethingthat's not going to be helpful
or productive.
Adam Salgat (10:20):
You mentioned about taking that deep breath.
I know Misty Jenks, our CEO,and a prior audio cast mentioned
that that is a great way, likescientifically, to get your body
to start to calm.
Have you ever heard that?
And then any other tips thatyou might have, even personal
ones, that you do, to reach thatstate of calm, to get those
(10:40):
emotions regulated?
Katie Trotter (10:42):
Yeah, I know there are some people who really
find it helpful to go for ashort walk just to kind of have
some of that physical energy outof their body.
I do not have the sciencebehind this, adam, but for me I
like to remind myself that thoseemotions that I'm feeling, the
shame, the guilt, the feelingsof inadequacy, whatever those
might be just reminding myself,those aren't helping me become
(11:04):
the leader that I want to be,and so that reframe sometimes
allows me to just get out ofthat stuck space and be thinking
about what I want to do next.
Adam Salgat (11:12):
Okay, so thinking about what you want to do next,
let's move on to step number two, step number three, and then do
your best to kind of continuealong your story and your
example.
Katie Trotter (11:24):
So step number two is naming the behavior.
This is the opportunity for usto be really honest about what
happened.
And again, this is not aboutstaying in all those crappy
feelings.
It's really about how do wetake ownership in this space.
So for me, it was being able toarticulate I know that I sent
email communication without anycontext about why I was asking
(11:46):
those questions.
The timing of when it was sentwas very inconvenient for all
the people who'd been working sohard on the project.
Now, when you look at the thirdstep, this part's really
important and I think it oftengets missed.
And this is about naming thebetter choice, sharing what you
wish you had done differently.
And this shows a few differentthings for the person you're
(12:06):
talking to.
One it shows growth.
It shows that not only yourealized you messed up, but that
you see a better path forward.
The other part that I likeabout it is that it kind of
gives some accountability fordown the road, they now know
what to expect from you the nexttime something like this
happens.
So if I've already told youthat I'm going to show up
differently next time and whatthat will look like, I feel like
(12:29):
that makes me feel a little bitmore accountable to behaving
differently in the next time.
Adam Salgat (12:34):
I think those are great reminders and I love the
way that you stepped throughboth of those and they in your
scenario.
It sounds like what would thatspecific better choice for you?
What would that look like?
Katie Trotter (12:45):
Well, I'd like to say that, ideally, what I would
have said is that from the verybeginning of the project, I
would have stayed more engagedand followed along on the
timeline, noting that there weresome things in that moment that
were outside, some things inthat moment that were outside of
my control that created thatkind of last minute urgency.
The better choice that I statedthen was, hey, I should have
picked up the phone to call,just so they could hear the tone
(13:06):
, to understand why it was thatI was asking for some
information that may have comethrough earlier on that I might
have missed, and then to givethem a little bit of a head
start on when I needed it by.
Instead of this, I have allthese questions period right.
Really saying, even if I couldget this by Sunday evening, it
would be helpful when I'mtraveling.
Adam Salgat (13:24):
That's great, yeah, so I mean, you really look at
the behavior and you choose.
Okay, I can do this differentlynext time.
We have two more steps toconsider, though, here, and
number four is engage inconversation, meet with the
person impacted, approach withempathy and humility.
In this particular case, I'mnot sure if you needed to do
(13:45):
this, but if you did tell meabout it, if you went through
that conversation, but if youdidn't talk a little bit about
that piece and how you'd goabout it.
Katie Trotter (13:54):
Yeah and Adam, before we even get to that part.
One of the things that I thinkis helpful about step four is
that sometimes, as leaders, westop after three because it's
all things that we can dointernally in our head.
So for me, I definitely couldhave been hey, step one.
I have all of these feelings,but I've noticed that I've
messed up.
I've got myself calmed down.
(14:16):
I, in all of my greatleadership, growth and
opportunities right, take timeto reflect on that specific
behavior internally, think aboutwhat I want to do differently
next time, and then I stopBecause in my mind I've learned
from my mistake, I have a newpath forward, but what would be
really uncomfortable isadmitting my mistake to the
other person.
Adam Salgat (14:35):
That's a good point .
Katie Trotter (14:37):
So step four is really important because it is
about bringing the other personin, and this is where the trust
starts to get rebuilt.
I want to meet with the people Isent that email to, whether
it's over the phone or, ideally,in person, just to say, hey,
here's the behavior that I did,here's how I want to show up
differently and I have to beopen to hearing what they have
(14:57):
to say about that, which leadsinto step five, which is really
in that conversation and thatengaging, listening to
understand their perspective,using those reflective listening
skills that I know, adam, weteach in classes and you've
talked about on other audiocasts as well, because sometimes
what happens is that the waythat I'm trying to correct my
behavior is not something thatthey would actually appreciate,
(15:20):
or maybe I thought that theywere feeling some way based on
my mistake and I didn't get itquite right.
So four and five are kind ofthis gap, great trust-building
activity where we get to learnmore about the other person's
experience with our mistake andwe can find a new path forward
together.
Adam Salgat (15:36):
I love that reminder about it being a
conversation also because Iimmediately kind of thought
about this being confrontationand your need to be able to
confront them about somethingthat you did yourself.
But it's a reminder foreverybody out there
Confrontation is always aconversation.
That's our hope, right.
Katie Trotter (15:55):
It's such a great reminder.
Adam Salgat (15:56):
When we think about these five tips.
Obviously, with a lot of thethings that we teach, we talk
about the ability to take themoutside of the workplace, right?
So this is a model that worksanywhere.
It applies to personalrelationships too.
Katie Trotter (16:11):
Absolutely.
I would love to say thatmistakes are just kept in one
environment, but part of thatbeing chronically human means
we're making mistakes all thetime in all different
environments and, adam, I couldactually give you a great
example on that one, if we havetime.
Adam Salgat (16:25):
Yeah, I'd love to hear a personal example.
Those are always poignant forour listeners, I believe.
Katie Trotter (16:30):
So I have two daughters at home are always
poignant for our listeners, Ibelieve.
So I have two daughters at home, nine and 16 right now, and
they were very animated andsharing with me kind of like a
big story that had lots ofemotion behind it and discussion
and excitement.
And I was in one of those veryunfortunate distracted modes.
I was still thinking about thatwork project that I had going
(16:51):
on, the phone dinged, andinstead of waiting I caught my
eyes kind of diverting, you knowall of the things and just not
showing up the way that I wantto as a parent.
And in that moment I looked upand saw just the dejected looks
on both of their faces, justkind of this sense of not
feeling heard or important.
And in that moment, right, Ithink as a parent sometimes I
(17:15):
shouldn't speak for otherparents.
I will say for me.
Sometimes I can feel thisdefensiveness rise up, like the
temptation is, they should knowthat I was busy in that moment
when they came to share.
Why couldn't they wait until itwas a better time?
But that again is me notchoosing to use that learning
opportunity.
Right, I'm not going to becomea better leader or a better
parent by always dismissingthose moments.
(17:37):
So you go through all the stepsright, you're figuring out what
behavior it is and you have anopportunity to say to your kids
what I did in the moment, whichwas just I am so sorry.
That is not how I wanted torespond when you were sharing
this story with me.
Could we try it again?
That is not how I wanted torespond when you were sharing
this story with me.
Could we try it again?
And I think for me it was moreimportant for me to model for
(17:57):
them.
Here's what it looks like whenyou mess up.
Here's a new path forward.
Adam Salgat (18:02):
What I hear you explaining right at the end.
There is the opportunity foryou to show some action and in
that case you have theopportunity to do it immediately
, to kind of show them.
This is how I should have theopportunity to do it immediately
to kind of show them.
This is how I can do.
This is how I should have beenlistening to you or how I could
have been listening to you.
That's not always going to bethe case when we need to show
(18:24):
action.
But talk a little bit aboutthat.
Next step right is what are theactions we're going to take to
show this behavior change?
Katie Trotter (18:29):
It's such a great point to bring up Adam because
I could get really good atapologizing and never change my
behavior right.
And if I just keep saying sorrythat I wasn't listening, sorry
that I was distracted, sorrythat I didn't show up for you,
that trust is never going torebuild and that connection's
never going to be there.
So this action step is reallyimportant.
(18:49):
It means that the next timethey come to me with something
that they want to share, or thenext time back to my work
example I find myself kind oflast minute stressed and I'm
tempted to shoot off that Fridayafternoon email.
It means that I'm going topause and choose to act
differently in the moment.
And those are the moments thatare so critically important.
Those are the moments that areso critically important.
Adam Salgat (19:10):
I think it's a great reminder also to say you
can realize in the moment thateven if I can't adjust my
behavior directly right now, Ican ask for change from them to
say can I have five minutes so Ican give you undivided
attention?
Katie Trotter (19:25):
Oh, that's great.
I think I might write that onedown to use later, Adam.
Adam Salgat (19:29):
Oh, I'm sure you've used it before.
I might write that one down touse later.
Adam, oh, I'm sure you've usedit before.
Well, Katie, thank you so muchfor taking the time today to
talk to us about leadership andrebuilding trust when we make a
mistake.
Can you give me a level upopportunity for our listeners
out there?
Katie Trotter (19:48):
Yeah, I'd encourage people to think about
a moment where they've messed upor maybe caused harm, whether
it was intentional or not, and,instead of avoiding it, really
take a minute to ask what's onestep that you're going to take
to repair and rebuild trust.
Adam Salgat (20:03):
I love that.
So go back and listen to ourfive steps there and then also
consider what are the actionsyou're going to take after
stepping through those pieces.
Consider what are the actionsyou're going to take after
stepping through those pieces.
So, katie, if an organizationis looking to continue to
improve their leadership, whatdo we offer outside of?
Katie Trotter (20:20):
our foundational classes.
We have a variety of differentlearning sessions that are
available for organizations thatwant to continue on with this
work.
So things like we covered todayhow to be an awesome leader
even when you mess up, but wealso have a variety of other
topics around workplace culturehow to build psychological
safety and trust within yourteam and how to navigate the
change process.
(20:41):
Those are just a few examples.
Adam Salgat (20:44):
If you'd like to get in touch with us on those,
there is a link in thedescription of this audio cast
that will lead you directly toour speaker page.
You can fill out the form.
Katie, thank you so much forbeing a part of our audio cast
today.
Katie Trotter (20:57):
Thanks for having me, Adam.
It's always a pleasure.
Adam Salgat (21:00):
To our listeners.
If this episode resonated withyou, share it with a colleague
or a friend, and don't forget tosubscribe.
Until next time, we're invitingyou to walk your path with
intention.
Intention, because you are themessage.
Take care, my friends.
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