July 18, 2025 • 28 mins
Though a few brave (or crazy) pioneers have dabbled with using crypto in commercial real estate, the industry has mostly sat on the sidelines for years.
The reason: not enough regulation, no stability or guardrails.
This week, that started to change. The passage of the GENIUS Act to create a framework for stablecoins, plus two other bills making their way through Congress, could lead to a rapid rise of building tokenization, digital transactions and rents paid by bitcoin.
On this week’s episode, Savills Vice Chairman Gabe Marans said the federal framework will kick off a new era for real estate in which deals are done faster and cheaper. And he doesn’t think CRE is ready for it.
Register on Bisnow.com to join next Friday's conversation live, or check back here for the conversation after it airs.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mark Bonner (00:09):
Alright. It's Friday. Welcome to First Draft
Live. It's July 18. I'm yourhost Mark Bonner, BizNow's
editor in chief and I'm comingto you live from New York.
I want to thank all of ouraudience from tuning in from
across the country and aroundthe world. Thank you very much
for making the time. We'recoming to you at the end of
Crypto Week on Capitol Hillwhere congress just passed three
(00:30):
landmark bills that couldfinally give digital finance
real rules and real estate abrand new financial toolkit.
Bitcoin blew past a 120,000 thisweek and the infrastructure is
already being laid for stablecoin leases, crypto backed
loans, and tokenized LP stakes.So, on today's episode, has real
estate's crypto moment finallyarrived?
(00:53):
The genius act sets ground rulesfor stable coins. Full reserves,
monthly disclosures, and banklevel approvals which makes them
viable for things like escrow,cross border rent, and more. The
Clarity Act settles the turf warbetween the SEC and the CFTC. A
crucial move toward formalcrypto oversight. And Trump's
(01:13):
pro crypto agenda is now puttingreal pressure on real estate.
To figure out what's hype andwhat's actually coming down the
pipe. Joining us to make senseof it all, Gabe Marins, vice
chairman at Savills. Gabe hasled more than 20,000,000 square
feet of tenant rep deals forcompanies like Duolingo, Unity
Software, Expedia, and Bitwise.But wait, you may be thinking,
(01:37):
isn't this guy just a broker?What in the heck does he know
about crypto?
Well, as it turns out, quite abit. Many of Gabe's clients have
been on Capitol Hill this weekworking directly with lawmakers
and the White House as theyshape this trio of bills. And in
the you eat what you kill worldof brokerage, Gabe has been
gobbling up everything there isto know about crypto. Gabe,
(02:00):
welcome to the show. I knowyou're joining us from the New
York Suburbs.
Gabe Marans (02:04):
Yeah. Thank you, Mark. That's a heck of a
introduction. Very muchappreciate it. Could not have
timed this better, for StrapLive.
I think this is the firstpodcast that I've, that I know
about that's, actually lined upto address this very dynamic
week that we saw in DC,something that many of us who
(02:24):
have been observing from thesidelines have been very excited
about. Know, as of last night,some exciting new developments.
Mark Bonner (02:32):
Absolutely. I mean, let it be First Draft Live that
takes you on the maiden voyageinto crypto and real estate. But
before we jump in to theintricacies of these three
bills, Gabe, how did you getentrenched in this world to
begin with and why?
Gabe Marans (02:47):
So putting aside the general curiosity that I
have with crypto or any othernascent technology, several
years ago, so about two cryptowinters ago, I was introduced to
a gentleman who was running a PRfirm for one of the early crypto
(03:09):
businesses. And it was not yetquite in the spotlight, spent a
lot of time with me walking methrough some of the details of
the industry. And I wouldn't saythat I wasn't skeptical. I think
it's natural to be skeptical.Perhaps because I was a skeptic,
I was asking a certain level ofquestions.
And that relationship turnedinto many introductions to many
(03:30):
of his clientele. And youblinked and you missed it. And
all of a sudden now I counted anumber of crypto tenants within
the New York world as my clientsadvising them on office space
and real estate. And so yousurvive a couple of crypto
winters as a result of that. Yougrow the book of business.
(03:51):
And to this day, I have severalvery treasured clients that are
in the broader crypto space,both mainstream and also more of
a challenger set. And that's whoyou were referencing. Those were
the folks that have been playinga role in DC over the last year
plus and more intensively overthe last several weeks and
months, helping to craft andadvocate and lobby for these
(04:15):
three critical pieces oflegislation.
Mark Bonner (04:18):
Yeah. If you go to biznel.com, this is a message to
our listeners and our viewersright now. And we've a big story
on the front of the websiteright now that breaks this all
down. But Gabe, what are yourwhat are your contacts in DC
telling you right now that is interms of these three bills? What
is the single most importantshift for CRE this week?
Is it stable coin clarity? Is ittoken classification? Or is it a
(04:40):
blocked Fed coin?
Gabe Marans (04:42):
Yeah, it's certainly the Genius Act, which
was the, I think in my view, themost important of these three
bills from a real estatestandpoint. Know, this is the
bill that was passed by theSenate earlier this year. It was
passed by the House lateyesterday, and at some point
should be going to PresidentTrump's desk for signature and
(05:05):
signed into law. And what thisessentially does is it clarifies
a lot of the uncertainty thatexisted around stablecoins. This
is not introducing stablecoinsto the market, but it's
clarifying a lot of theuncertainty that was hindering
its growth and its adoption in away that, as we'll talk about
(05:25):
over our next few minutes here,will have a very real and sooner
than most people realize impacton the entirety of the real
estate ecosystem and beyond.
Mark Bonner (05:34):
So at this hour, the Genius Act is headed to the
president's desk. Stablecoins,therefore, as you said, could
soon be approved for regulateduse, giving CRE companies a new
set of tools for rent paymentsor deposit flows or escrow
handling, even tokenizedinvestor returns. Gabe, do you
think a regulated stablecoincould be integrated into CRE
(05:56):
workflows by the end of theyear?
Gabe Marans (05:58):
Yeah, I think it's most certainly likely. There are
certain provisions that areburied within the Genius Act
that allow for a timeline forthings to be further clarified.
So I think the safest guess orthe safest timeline to assume
would be about twelve monthsfrom now, where we'll have it
more firmly in focus. But Ithink that by the end of this
(06:21):
year, you will start to see alot more of that. And I know
that we're speaking aboutstablecoin to the extent that
not all of your listeners arefamiliar with stablecoin.
Stablecoin is essentially acryptocurrency that is pegged to
the US dollar frequently. Andyou could see in the background
noise on bond sales purchasingtreasuries that are the ones
(06:43):
that are backing up the peggingof the currency with a
stablecoin to the US dollar. Andso when we talk about
stablecoins, we're essentiallythinking about it very simply as
a one to one value to the U. S.Dollar.
Mark Bonner (06:56):
Who do you think are the early candidates to pi
out the stablecoin integration?
Gabe Marans (07:02):
I could see this going one of two different ways.
I could see the institutionalplayers that are looking at this
as an opportunity to be morecompetitive in the market. And I
could also see this as anopportunity for more of the
challengers, the players thatare on the fringes to eat up
market share. And to moredirectly answer that question,
what is the opportunity thatexists to take advantage of that
(07:26):
opportunity within the market?Why would a player right now try
to embrace stablecoins?
Well, you have to understandthat right now if you are
settling a sale, if you'retransferring monies certainly
across borders, you're dealingwith two major friction points.
The first is time. It oftentakes many days in order to
settle certain sales, trades,money transfers. And the other
(07:49):
part of this is fees. There aresignificant fees that are
associated with transferringmoney through the traditional
banking system.
It's partly why you've seen someresistance from many of those
traditional players and why, ifthere are any big losers out
there right now as a result ofthis act and some of these other
acts, it may very well be someof the established financial
(08:09):
players if they're not able topivot and respond and take
advantage of this legislation,which they're smart, very smart
players. I think they end upwill be doing so. So going back
to the question, the advantageshere is you can settle trades,
settle sales a lot faster. We'retalking about almost
instantaneously. And the othercomponent to this is because
(08:30):
stablecoins based on the GeniusAct, you're not allowed to
charge interest on them.
There is a situation here wherethe fees are going to be
significantly less. There mightbe a single fee associated with
it, but it's going to besignificantly less. And so if
you are a big bank or you're achallenger in the field right
now, and you could look at thisand see that you can accelerate
(08:54):
your timeline for deal makingand also reduce your costs to
transact. Those are majoradvantages and that's what
drives the industry at large.And that's why you're going to
see, once you have this betterunderstanding of how this is all
going to work, you're going tosee a rush towards it, I think
both on the challenger side andon the institutional side.
Mark Bonner (09:13):
Look, just looking at The US map, I mean, The
United States is flush withmarkets that our innovation in
tech hubs, all with largeinstitutional portfolios and
tech forward adoption, Dallas,New York, San Francisco. I mean,
do we think those are the placeswhere we're going to start to
see this unfurl first?
Gabe Marans (09:32):
Yeah, I think that, and listen, I'm calling in from
the New York suburbs here. I'mNew York born and raised. So, I
am naturally biased towards NewYork. It's the perfect
environment for this confluenceof technology and finance. And
so, yes, you're going to see amajor embrace of the technology
(09:52):
that's going to be coming out ofNew York.
I also think you're going to seea lot of companies emerge that
will be taking advantage of thisnew legislation in New York. I
think San Francisco and theGreater Bay Area, just simply
due to their history as abastion of innovative thought
and technology, going to seeinnovation over there. And
Texas, specifically Dallas, Iknow they're trying to make the
(10:15):
Yall Street thing stick. I don'tknow if that's actually going to
be successful. But it'sundeniable that you're starting
to see this migration offinancial services to that part
of the country helped along withtheir business friendly default
insistence on having lessregulation in that market.
And of course, Southern Florida.You're gonna see elements of
(10:36):
that there, too. The biggestknock against Southern Florida
is you just don't have the samedegree of labor migration and
the densification of the rightlabor that you would need for
financial services innovation.But in the other three major
markets that we just mentioned,I think that's where you're
going to see this mostlyconcentrated.
Mark Bonner (10:57):
Yeah, Y'all Street, I mean, they're least winning on
the branding. That's amazing.Let's talk clarity just for a
second. The Clarity Act offerslong sought guidance on which
digital assets are commoditiesversus securities and who
regulates them. For commercialreal estate, could unlock new
potential for tokenized LPstakes, equity tranches and
smart contract basedsettlements.
(11:20):
But Gabe, are firms ready? Is itstill a future bet or is it
something that we can do now asan industry?
Gabe Marans (11:27):
Yeah, I think it's a future bet. And so what the
CLARITY Act is designed toaddress is a lot of the
headwinds that many cryptobusinesses have been confronted
with over the last severalyears, particularly over the
past presidentialadministration, where there was
confusion about theclassification of the crypto
(11:48):
product. Is it a security or isit more of a commodity? And the
major difference there from alegal standpoint is, is it going
to be monitored by the CTFC, theCommodities Future Trading
Commission, or
Mark Bonner (12:05):
is
Gabe Marans (12:05):
it going to be closely tracked by the SEC? And
that's a major difference. Andthere are several very well
publicized instances wherecompanies got into trouble
because the classification wasnot clear. And there was this
battling between one agencyversus the other. In some cases,
they were being targeted by bothof those agencies.
(12:28):
What the CLARITY Act is designedto do is provide clarity on what
fits into which category becausethat has been holding back
innovation in this departmentbecause of the threat of
lawsuits and legislative action.And so, I think that this is
going to play a very sizablerole. It is further from going
(12:50):
into becoming true law than theGenius Act. It still needs to
pass the Senate. It passed theHouse.
It now needs to go back to theSenate. And what I'm hearing
from several of our clients whoare on the Hill and talking to
Congress, talking to the Senate,the Senate has quite a number of
changes that they would like toimplement compared to the House
(13:14):
version. And so, I think it's alittle bit further than most
people realize, but I amoptimistic simply because
historically over the last halfa year so far since Mr. Trump
has reentered office, he'spassed almost everything that
has been a campaign promise. SoI would put my money that some
version of this ends up gettingpassed by the Senate and
(13:35):
returned to the president's deskfor signature.
Mark Bonner (13:39):
If you're just tuning in, it's Crypto Week on
Capitol Hill, and we're talkingabout what it could all mean for
commercial real estate. With usis Gabe Marins of Savills,
breaking down how tokenization,stablecoins, and regulation
could reshape the capital stack.So let's move on to the anti
CBDC act, which would block theFederal Reserve from issuing a
digital dollar. Supporters argueit protects privacy and
(14:02):
innovation. Critics say itlimits the modernization of The
US financial system.
For commercial real estate, adigital dollar might have
streamlined wholesaletransactions, escrow handling,
or cross border financing.Without it, private stable coins
now hold the spotlight. But thepublic infrastructure piece may
lag. Gabe, would a CBDC havehelped or hurt real estate
(14:25):
capital markets?
Gabe Marans (14:29):
So this is exactly what this bill is trying to
address here. And at its core,it is an argument that
innovation should belong withinthe private sector as opposed to
the government sector. And so,the reason for the push for the
anti CBDC bill is a result ofconcern that the government is
(14:52):
going to abuse privacyprivileges. The government, as a
result of it becoming the ownerof this corner of the financial
services world, is going toinhibit innovation from other
upstarts. And so the whole goalof this is to say to the
government, hey, your job is toregulate and to establish
(15:14):
guidelines for the privatesector to innovate around this
product.
So, I think that it's importantto note, which we haven't yet
spoken about, that while we'retalking about Trump and this
being a campaign promise of hisand how the Republicans have
been touting Crypto Week, theGenius Act was passed with
(15:35):
bipartisan support. And there'spretty wide bipartisan support
for all three of these bills.It's, of course, the devil is
always in the details. And so Ithink even now amongst
Republicans, Democrats, andindependents, there's a strong
desire for innovation withincrypto to stay within the
private sector.
Mark Bonner (15:54):
You bring up a good point. I mean, although there
were some loud yells fromcertain quarters of the
Democratic Party that this was areally bad thing, 100 Democrats
did cross the aisle and supportat least a few of these bills
and a lot of the language thatwas in them. Just going back to
CBDC just for a second, Gabe. Imean, will institutional
(16:15):
investors trust regulatedstablecoins more now, or do you
think they'll still see them asrisky?
Gabe Marans (16:21):
Yeah, this was a conversation I was having just
the other day with my team. Weset up a debate on the team, And
we played a bit of a devil'sadvocate argument here. And
Ethan, to my left, was arguingthat there's going to be faster
adoption. And Maxine, on myright, was arguing that there
was going to be slower adoption.And I was trying to play judge
(16:44):
just to understand what theoutcome was most likely going to
be, of course, in anticipationof this conversation with you,
Mark, and of course, before theGenius Act was passed by the
House.
And I think what I've arrivedat, and it's true of all three
of these acts, all three ofthese bills, that the biggest
(17:05):
issue here has been uncertainty.And so once you shine that
spotlight on everybody who'splaying in this sphere, you're
going to have a race towardsadoption because the business
cases are so obvious. Again,going back to what we were
talking about earlier, we'retalking about lower fees and
faster transaction with thelower threshold of concern
(17:29):
around the government pursuinglawsuits against your business.
If you put all of that together,why wouldn't they accelerate
into it? Now, some will walkbefore they run, But once
everybody else, it's like, youyou're in a crowd, everybody
starts running in one direction.
It's human nature to just startrunning with everybody. And so I
think if you think about thatimage, that's what we'll see.
(17:51):
Some people start walking, butonce the mass starts running, so
too will everybody else.
Mark Bonner (17:56):
I mean, you bring up a great point, right? I mean,
do you think current commercialreal estate teams are ready to
reskill for this? Does thiscreate new sectors within larger
teams? Like, how is commercialreal estate going to absorb this
and take it on?
Gabe Marans (18:12):
So I don't think commercial real estate is ready
by any means. I think thatthere's going to be a cottage
consulting industry that's goingto pop up that will help advise
real estate executives on how toembrace this and how to
incorporate it into theirbusiness models. And I think
that there's some fallout as aresult of some of the
(18:34):
malpractice or underwhelmingethical showcasing of some
others in the crypto world. Ithink Sam Bankman Fried and
everything that happened withthat, I think that stuck with
people. But that is the oldworld.
Now we're talking about the newworld. What most people don't
realize is almost every majorbank is exploring crypto,
(18:55):
blockchain, stablecoins, how toincorporate this. All the major
wealth advisors have now allowedeither explicitly or implicitly
the investing of cryptocurrencyon their platforms. You have
many businesses now that areoffering mainstream businesses
that are offering ETFs thattrack cryptocurrency. And so
this is an established field andworld right now.
(19:18):
And the real estate world as ahistorical business is always
slow to adopt. But there's sucha clear argument here about why
some of the results of thesethree bills are going to be very
clear. It's gonna help thebottom line. They just don't
have that internal know how. Andso how and why they go ahead and
get it, I think that's gonna bea fascinating part of the next
(19:42):
six to twelve months, but it is100% going to happen.
Mark Bonner (19:46):
Okay, Gabe, let me go to a question from the
audience. My partners and I arebuilding a platform focused on
tokenized funds in the realestate vertical. And one of our
biggest challenges is gettingreal estate people to embrace
crypto wallets. How do you seethat working with stablecoins
and the education piece?
Gabe Marans (20:04):
So now that we are past the passage in Congress of
the Genius Act, most of whichrevolves and addresses
stablecoin and also offersguidance about custodian wallets
and some of the security andrisks associated with that. I
think that you are talking aboutone day later a much safer
environment than maybe if wewere having this conversation
(20:26):
forty eight hours earlier. Butthere has to be an educational
element to this. Even the majornews publications, and Mark, I
tip my hat to you for havingthis podcast so soon, this is
not being investigated,understood in the same way that
it really needs to be. And so ifyou are already tired of this
topic, steel yourself becauseyou're going to be inundated
(20:46):
with many, many takes over thenext several weeks.
This, of course, being the firstand the most important and the
most accurate. But there will beothers to come. So I think the
answer to the question is it'sgoing to take a little bit of
time. But again, comes back tothere being clarity and not with
the bill. But there is morecertainty, less uncertainty
(21:06):
around this.
And as people understand thatthis is the new world, that this
is the future, there's noturning the clock back on this,
you'll start to see more of anunderstanding around why your
product and your company isgoing to be a key part of the
ecosystem.
Mark Bonner (21:20):
Yeah. And Gabe, I mean, as you well know, I mean,
is an industry that for decadeshas been a little bit anti
technology adoption, right? Andthen, over the course of last
five years, you know, whetherit's AI or any number of things
that have entered the four, youknow, commercial real estate is
trying to shake off thatstereotype, right? Lot of fears
out there about, you know,things like AI and perhaps even
(21:43):
crypto killing jobs. You and Iwere talking earlier about the
ludite fallacy.
Do you think this is a jobkiller or is it a job creator?
Like, how do you view this interms of the longer stretch of
time in the next couple of yearsonce we get beyond the
consultancy phase?
Gabe Marans (22:00):
I think this is a net gain of job creation for a
very simple reason, which isthis is going to introduce an
even faster pace of doingbusiness because of the timeline
that it's going to take in orderto the shrinkage of that
timeline, the lowering of thosefees, those monies, if you're a
(22:21):
business and you're not payingas much in fees in order to
settle trades or sales, wheredoes that money go? That money
is going go somewhere and atleast a portion of that is going
to go to additional jobcreation. And as the pace of
business starts to pick up,they're gonna need more people
in order to help facilitate andassist with that. And so I think
that it's a near, mid, and longterm net gain for jobs.
Mark Bonner (22:46):
The road to mass adoption is probably going to
depend on who builds what.Wallets, custodians, smart
contract registries, andcompliance layers that must come
online, and someone must proveROI. What do you think is the
realistic adoption curve forcrypto tools in commercial real
estate? One year, three years,five years, Gabe? Like how do
(23:09):
you see this playing out?
Gabe Marans (23:10):
I think you'll start to see some players within
the next six months start toembrace them. You'll probably
see a breakout of a major playerwithin the first year. I think
we'll then start to see a slowlyincreasing cascade of players
embrace this to some degree oranother. So I think you're
(23:32):
probably talking about three orfour different time periods. I
pegged the first two at sixmonths, then a year.
Maybe the second tranche happensat two years. I think we'll be
looking back on this in anotherten years and wondering how we
were still settling real estatetransactions that were not on
the blockchain, that were notpegged to stablecoin. All of
(23:53):
this, of course, assuming thatthere's not a big scandal that
poisons everybody's sense thatthis is a safe and secure way of
doing business.
Mark Bonner (24:02):
So, I mean, just to drill down just a little bit
more, Gabe. I mean, who needs tomove first? GPs, LPs, brokers,
lawyers?
Gabe Marans (24:11):
You'll probably start to see LPs and GPs move
first. Lawyers will be, I think,part of this cottage industry
with expertise about how to besttake advantage of this. You'll
start to see some reallydedicate themselves to
understanding how to effectuatesome of the changes that are
outlined within the Genius Billand hopefully over the next two
(24:33):
bills. But it's going to be a GPthat fancies themselves as a new
player on the field. You'llprobably have some LPs, many of
whom have existing holdings to asizable degree of cryptocurrency
and believe ideologically in thefuture of the blockchain and Web
three.
(24:54):
You know, I don't think I everthought I would see a point in
time where a professional sportsplayer would choose to take some
of their salary in Bitcoin.We've seen that over the years.
It still hasn't becomemainstream, but it is not as
wild of an idea as it once was.But I think you'll start to see
more massive adoption within thereal estate space in a more
(25:15):
mainstream capacity. But goingback to your question, it'll be
some individual GPLP.
A journalist will find thestory, find it compelling,
topical, write about it, andothers will then start to
copycat.
Mark Bonner (25:29):
Yeah, I think what we've learned in the last twenty
four to forty hours is thatwe're officially past the hype
phase. This is here. It's notgoing away. This week, these
laws, assuming that Donald Trumpsigns them, real laws, real
framework, real potential. Butas we've discussed, real risk
looms.
Tech, compliance, marketimmaturity. Gabe, if you're
(25:53):
advising a CEO today, what'syour play book? Go now, go
small, wait for proof. What areyou telling a CEO today?
Gabe Marans (26:02):
Yeah, I'd say immediately start exploring
partnerships. You're going towant to think about piloting
stablecoin based transactionsand maybe some non core assets
so that if something goes wrong,it doesn't impact your direct or
your most important criticalbusiness line. And really watch
regulatory guidance veryclosely. I think we're going to
(26:23):
see a lot more come out over thenext six to twelve months in a
way that will help shape andguide all of this. Absolutely
avoid unregulated tokens orplatforms.
You're going to want to focus onuse cases with clear legal
pathways. And through it all, bevery mindful of the benefits,
the ROIs, as you said. Measurethe cost and time advantages and
(26:46):
lean into the ones that aregoing to have the most positive
effect on your business.
Mark Bonner (26:51):
We're running out of time here, Gabe, but I want
to jam in one more question fromthe audience if you have a
second. Question, do you thinkthat US to US based transactions
will want or need this for dealssince banking fees for wire
transfers are not that expensiveand time delay is not overtly
significant?
Gabe Marans (27:12):
If we are defining fees as not that high and time
delay is not that significant,well, what would it look like if
you were to cut that in half?What if you were to take a 3.5%
fee and shrink it to almostnothing or take a three day
timeline to settle a transactionand turn it into something
(27:32):
instantaneous? This is whatwe're talking about with
stablecoins. We're talking aboutnot having to go through the
traditional finance system. Andtime not only kills all deals,
but if you can do them faster,of course, the inverse is also
true.
If you can do things faster,time will save deals. And so,
yes, I think those are the twomajor reasons where you can save
(27:54):
on both time and money. Andthat's exactly the reason why
you're going to see a stronginterest in how do you integrate
this new technology into theexisting business models.
Mark Bonner (28:06):
Okay, I'm getting the hook, Gabe, from my
producer. That's all the time wehave today. Thank you very much
for being here.
Gabe Marans (28:12):
Yeah, thank you, Mark. Really appreciate you
having me. Fantastic talkingabout something that we're
really in the early innings of.
Mark Bonner (28:21):
We'll be back with another episode of First Strap
Live next week, so don't missout. You can sign up now on our
event page. Can also findtoday's episode and all of our
past conversations on yourfavorite podcast app and also at
biznow.com. This is First DraftLive. Have a great weekend
y'all.
Alright. It's Friday. Welcome to First Draft
Live. It's July 18. I'm yourhost Mark Bonner, BizNow's
editor in chief and I'm comingto you live from New York.
I want to thank all of ouraudience from tuning in from
across the country and aroundthe world. Thank you very much
for making the time. We'recoming to you at the end of
Crypto Week on Capitol Hillwhere congress just passed three
(00:30):
landmark bills that couldfinally give digital finance
real rules and real estate abrand new financial toolkit.
Bitcoin blew past a 120,000 thisweek and the infrastructure is
already being laid for stablecoin leases, crypto backed
loans, and tokenized LP stakes.So, on today's episode, has real
estate's crypto moment finallyarrived?
(00:53):
The genius act sets ground rulesfor stable coins. Full reserves,
monthly disclosures, and banklevel approvals which makes them
viable for things like escrow,cross border rent, and more. The
Clarity Act settles the turf warbetween the SEC and the CFTC. A
crucial move toward formalcrypto oversight. And Trump's
(01:13):
pro crypto agenda is now puttingreal pressure on real estate.
To figure out what's hype andwhat's actually coming down the
pipe. Joining us to make senseof it all, Gabe Marins, vice
chairman at Savills. Gabe hasled more than 20,000,000 square
feet of tenant rep deals forcompanies like Duolingo, Unity
Software, Expedia, and Bitwise.But wait, you may be thinking,
(01:37):
isn't this guy just a broker?What in the heck does he know
about crypto?
Well, as it turns out, quite abit. Many of Gabe's clients have
been on Capitol Hill this weekworking directly with lawmakers
and the White House as theyshape this trio of bills. And in
the you eat what you kill worldof brokerage, Gabe has been
gobbling up everything there isto know about crypto. Gabe,
(02:00):
welcome to the show. I knowyou're joining us from the New
York Suburbs.
Gabe Marans (02:04):
Yeah. Thank you, Mark. That's a heck of a
introduction. Very muchappreciate it. Could not have
timed this better, for StrapLive.
I think this is the firstpodcast that I've, that I know
about that's, actually lined upto address this very dynamic
week that we saw in DC,something that many of us who
(02:24):
have been observing from thesidelines have been very excited
about. Know, as of last night,some exciting new developments.
Mark Bonner (02:32):
Absolutely. I mean, let it be First Draft Live that
takes you on the maiden voyageinto crypto and real estate. But
before we jump in to theintricacies of these three
bills, Gabe, how did you getentrenched in this world to
begin with and why?
Gabe Marans (02:47):
So putting aside the general curiosity that I
have with crypto or any othernascent technology, several
years ago, so about two cryptowinters ago, I was introduced to
a gentleman who was running a PRfirm for one of the early crypto
(03:09):
businesses. And it was not yetquite in the spotlight, spent a
lot of time with me walking methrough some of the details of
the industry. And I wouldn't saythat I wasn't skeptical. I think
it's natural to be skeptical.Perhaps because I was a skeptic,
I was asking a certain level ofquestions.
And that relationship turnedinto many introductions to many
(03:30):
of his clientele. And youblinked and you missed it. And
all of a sudden now I counted anumber of crypto tenants within
the New York world as my clientsadvising them on office space
and real estate. And so yousurvive a couple of crypto
winters as a result of that. Yougrow the book of business.
(03:51):
And to this day, I have severalvery treasured clients that are
in the broader crypto space,both mainstream and also more of
a challenger set. And that's whoyou were referencing. Those were
the folks that have been playinga role in DC over the last year
plus and more intensively overthe last several weeks and
months, helping to craft andadvocate and lobby for these
(04:15):
three critical pieces oflegislation.
Mark Bonner (04:18):
Yeah. If you go to biznel.com, this is a message to
our listeners and our viewersright now. And we've a big story
on the front of the websiteright now that breaks this all
down. But Gabe, what are yourwhat are your contacts in DC
telling you right now that is interms of these three bills? What
is the single most importantshift for CRE this week?
Is it stable coin clarity? Is ittoken classification? Or is it a
(04:40):
blocked Fed coin?
Gabe Marans (04:42):
Yeah, it's certainly the Genius Act, which
was the, I think in my view, themost important of these three
bills from a real estatestandpoint. Know, this is the
bill that was passed by theSenate earlier this year. It was
passed by the House lateyesterday, and at some point
should be going to PresidentTrump's desk for signature and
(05:05):
signed into law. And what thisessentially does is it clarifies
a lot of the uncertainty thatexisted around stablecoins. This
is not introducing stablecoinsto the market, but it's
clarifying a lot of theuncertainty that was hindering
its growth and its adoption in away that, as we'll talk about
(05:25):
over our next few minutes here,will have a very real and sooner
than most people realize impacton the entirety of the real
estate ecosystem and beyond.
Mark Bonner (05:34):
So at this hour, the Genius Act is headed to the
president's desk. Stablecoins,therefore, as you said, could
soon be approved for regulateduse, giving CRE companies a new
set of tools for rent paymentsor deposit flows or escrow
handling, even tokenizedinvestor returns. Gabe, do you
think a regulated stablecoincould be integrated into CRE
(05:56):
workflows by the end of theyear?
Gabe Marans (05:58):
Yeah, I think it's most certainly likely. There are
certain provisions that areburied within the Genius Act
that allow for a timeline forthings to be further clarified.
So I think the safest guess orthe safest timeline to assume
would be about twelve monthsfrom now, where we'll have it
more firmly in focus. But Ithink that by the end of this
(06:21):
year, you will start to see alot more of that. And I know
that we're speaking aboutstablecoin to the extent that
not all of your listeners arefamiliar with stablecoin.
Stablecoin is essentially acryptocurrency that is pegged to
the US dollar frequently. Andyou could see in the background
noise on bond sales purchasingtreasuries that are the ones
(06:43):
that are backing up the peggingof the currency with a
stablecoin to the US dollar. Andso when we talk about
stablecoins, we're essentiallythinking about it very simply as
a one to one value to the U. S.Dollar.
Mark Bonner (06:56):
Who do you think are the early candidates to pi
out the stablecoin integration?
Gabe Marans (07:02):
I could see this going one of two different ways.
I could see the institutionalplayers that are looking at this
as an opportunity to be morecompetitive in the market. And I
could also see this as anopportunity for more of the
challengers, the players thatare on the fringes to eat up
market share. And to moredirectly answer that question,
what is the opportunity thatexists to take advantage of that
(07:26):
opportunity within the market?Why would a player right now try
to embrace stablecoins?
Well, you have to understandthat right now if you are
settling a sale, if you'retransferring monies certainly
across borders, you're dealingwith two major friction points.
The first is time. It oftentakes many days in order to
settle certain sales, trades,money transfers. And the other
(07:49):
part of this is fees. There aresignificant fees that are
associated with transferringmoney through the traditional
banking system.
It's partly why you've seen someresistance from many of those
traditional players and why, ifthere are any big losers out
there right now as a result ofthis act and some of these other
acts, it may very well be someof the established financial
(08:09):
players if they're not able topivot and respond and take
advantage of this legislation,which they're smart, very smart
players. I think they end upwill be doing so. So going back
to the question, the advantageshere is you can settle trades,
settle sales a lot faster. We'retalking about almost
instantaneously. And the othercomponent to this is because
(08:30):
stablecoins based on the GeniusAct, you're not allowed to
charge interest on them.
There is a situation here wherethe fees are going to be
significantly less. There mightbe a single fee associated with
it, but it's going to besignificantly less. And so if
you are a big bank or you're achallenger in the field right
now, and you could look at thisand see that you can accelerate
(08:54):
your timeline for deal makingand also reduce your costs to
transact. Those are majoradvantages and that's what
drives the industry at large.And that's why you're going to
see, once you have this betterunderstanding of how this is all
going to work, you're going tosee a rush towards it, I think
both on the challenger side andon the institutional side.
Mark Bonner (09:13):
Look, just looking at The US map, I mean, The
United States is flush withmarkets that our innovation in
tech hubs, all with largeinstitutional portfolios and
tech forward adoption, Dallas,New York, San Francisco. I mean,
do we think those are the placeswhere we're going to start to
see this unfurl first?
Gabe Marans (09:32):
Yeah, I think that, and listen, I'm calling in from
the New York suburbs here. I'mNew York born and raised. So, I
am naturally biased towards NewYork. It's the perfect
environment for this confluenceof technology and finance. And
so, yes, you're going to see amajor embrace of the technology
(09:52):
that's going to be coming out ofNew York.
I also think you're going to seea lot of companies emerge that
will be taking advantage of thisnew legislation in New York. I
think San Francisco and theGreater Bay Area, just simply
due to their history as abastion of innovative thought
and technology, going to seeinnovation over there. And
Texas, specifically Dallas, Iknow they're trying to make the
(10:15):
Yall Street thing stick. I don'tknow if that's actually going to
be successful. But it'sundeniable that you're starting
to see this migration offinancial services to that part
of the country helped along withtheir business friendly default
insistence on having lessregulation in that market.
And of course, Southern Florida.You're gonna see elements of
(10:36):
that there, too. The biggestknock against Southern Florida
is you just don't have the samedegree of labor migration and
the densification of the rightlabor that you would need for
financial services innovation.But in the other three major
markets that we just mentioned,I think that's where you're
going to see this mostlyconcentrated.
Mark Bonner (10:57):
Yeah, Y'all Street, I mean, they're least winning on
the branding. That's amazing.Let's talk clarity just for a
second. The Clarity Act offerslong sought guidance on which
digital assets are commoditiesversus securities and who
regulates them. For commercialreal estate, could unlock new
potential for tokenized LPstakes, equity tranches and
smart contract basedsettlements.
(11:20):
But Gabe, are firms ready? Is itstill a future bet or is it
something that we can do now asan industry?
Gabe Marans (11:27):
Yeah, I think it's a future bet. And so what the
CLARITY Act is designed toaddress is a lot of the
headwinds that many cryptobusinesses have been confronted
with over the last severalyears, particularly over the
past presidentialadministration, where there was
confusion about theclassification of the crypto
(11:48):
product. Is it a security or isit more of a commodity? And the
major difference there from alegal standpoint is, is it going
to be monitored by the CTFC, theCommodities Future Trading
Commission, or
Mark Bonner (12:05):
is
Gabe Marans (12:05):
it going to be closely tracked by the SEC? And
that's a major difference. Andthere are several very well
publicized instances wherecompanies got into trouble
because the classification wasnot clear. And there was this
battling between one agencyversus the other. In some cases,
they were being targeted by bothof those agencies.
(12:28):
What the CLARITY Act is designedto do is provide clarity on what
fits into which category becausethat has been holding back
innovation in this departmentbecause of the threat of
lawsuits and legislative action.And so, I think that this is
going to play a very sizablerole. It is further from going
(12:50):
into becoming true law than theGenius Act. It still needs to
pass the Senate. It passed theHouse.
It now needs to go back to theSenate. And what I'm hearing
from several of our clients whoare on the Hill and talking to
Congress, talking to the Senate,the Senate has quite a number of
changes that they would like toimplement compared to the House
(13:14):
version. And so, I think it's alittle bit further than most
people realize, but I amoptimistic simply because
historically over the last halfa year so far since Mr. Trump
has reentered office, he'spassed almost everything that
has been a campaign promise. SoI would put my money that some
version of this ends up gettingpassed by the Senate and
(13:35):
returned to the president's deskfor signature.
Mark Bonner (13:39):
If you're just tuning in, it's Crypto Week on
Capitol Hill, and we're talkingabout what it could all mean for
commercial real estate. With usis Gabe Marins of Savills,
breaking down how tokenization,stablecoins, and regulation
could reshape the capital stack.So let's move on to the anti
CBDC act, which would block theFederal Reserve from issuing a
digital dollar. Supporters argueit protects privacy and
(14:02):
innovation. Critics say itlimits the modernization of The
US financial system.
For commercial real estate, adigital dollar might have
streamlined wholesaletransactions, escrow handling,
or cross border financing.Without it, private stable coins
now hold the spotlight. But thepublic infrastructure piece may
lag. Gabe, would a CBDC havehelped or hurt real estate
(14:25):
capital markets?
Gabe Marans (14:29):
So this is exactly what this bill is trying to
address here. And at its core,it is an argument that
innovation should belong withinthe private sector as opposed to
the government sector. And so,the reason for the push for the
anti CBDC bill is a result ofconcern that the government is
(14:52):
going to abuse privacyprivileges. The government, as a
result of it becoming the ownerof this corner of the financial
services world, is going toinhibit innovation from other
upstarts. And so the whole goalof this is to say to the
government, hey, your job is toregulate and to establish
(15:14):
guidelines for the privatesector to innovate around this
product.
So, I think that it's importantto note, which we haven't yet
spoken about, that while we'retalking about Trump and this
being a campaign promise of hisand how the Republicans have
been touting Crypto Week, theGenius Act was passed with
(15:35):
bipartisan support. And there'spretty wide bipartisan support
for all three of these bills.It's, of course, the devil is
always in the details. And so Ithink even now amongst
Republicans, Democrats, andindependents, there's a strong
desire for innovation withincrypto to stay within the
private sector.
Mark Bonner (15:54):
You bring up a good point. I mean, although there
were some loud yells fromcertain quarters of the
Democratic Party that this was areally bad thing, 100 Democrats
did cross the aisle and supportat least a few of these bills
and a lot of the language thatwas in them. Just going back to
CBDC just for a second, Gabe. Imean, will institutional
(16:15):
investors trust regulatedstablecoins more now, or do you
think they'll still see them asrisky?
Gabe Marans (16:21):
Yeah, this was a conversation I was having just
the other day with my team. Weset up a debate on the team, And
we played a bit of a devil'sadvocate argument here. And
Ethan, to my left, was arguingthat there's going to be faster
adoption. And Maxine, on myright, was arguing that there
was going to be slower adoption.And I was trying to play judge
(16:44):
just to understand what theoutcome was most likely going to
be, of course, in anticipationof this conversation with you,
Mark, and of course, before theGenius Act was passed by the
House.
And I think what I've arrivedat, and it's true of all three
of these acts, all three ofthese bills, that the biggest
(17:05):
issue here has been uncertainty.And so once you shine that
spotlight on everybody who'splaying in this sphere, you're
going to have a race towardsadoption because the business
cases are so obvious. Again,going back to what we were
talking about earlier, we'retalking about lower fees and
faster transaction with thelower threshold of concern
(17:29):
around the government pursuinglawsuits against your business.
If you put all of that together,why wouldn't they accelerate
into it? Now, some will walkbefore they run, But once
everybody else, it's like, youyou're in a crowd, everybody
starts running in one direction.
It's human nature to just startrunning with everybody. And so I
think if you think about thatimage, that's what we'll see.
(17:51):
Some people start walking, butonce the mass starts running, so
too will everybody else.
Mark Bonner (17:56):
I mean, you bring up a great point, right? I mean,
do you think current commercialreal estate teams are ready to
reskill for this? Does thiscreate new sectors within larger
teams? Like, how is commercialreal estate going to absorb this
and take it on?
Gabe Marans (18:12):
So I don't think commercial real estate is ready
by any means. I think thatthere's going to be a cottage
consulting industry that's goingto pop up that will help advise
real estate executives on how toembrace this and how to
incorporate it into theirbusiness models. And I think
that there's some fallout as aresult of some of the
(18:34):
malpractice or underwhelmingethical showcasing of some
others in the crypto world. Ithink Sam Bankman Fried and
everything that happened withthat, I think that stuck with
people. But that is the oldworld.
Now we're talking about the newworld. What most people don't
realize is almost every majorbank is exploring crypto,
(18:55):
blockchain, stablecoins, how toincorporate this. All the major
wealth advisors have now allowedeither explicitly or implicitly
the investing of cryptocurrencyon their platforms. You have
many businesses now that areoffering mainstream businesses
that are offering ETFs thattrack cryptocurrency. And so
this is an established field andworld right now.
(19:18):
And the real estate world as ahistorical business is always
slow to adopt. But there's sucha clear argument here about why
some of the results of thesethree bills are going to be very
clear. It's gonna help thebottom line. They just don't
have that internal know how. Andso how and why they go ahead and
get it, I think that's gonna bea fascinating part of the next
(19:42):
six to twelve months, but it is100% going to happen.
Mark Bonner (19:46):
Okay, Gabe, let me go to a question from the
audience. My partners and I arebuilding a platform focused on
tokenized funds in the realestate vertical. And one of our
biggest challenges is gettingreal estate people to embrace
crypto wallets. How do you seethat working with stablecoins
and the education piece?
Gabe Marans (20:04):
So now that we are past the passage in Congress of
the Genius Act, most of whichrevolves and addresses
stablecoin and also offersguidance about custodian wallets
and some of the security andrisks associated with that. I
think that you are talking aboutone day later a much safer
environment than maybe if wewere having this conversation
(20:26):
forty eight hours earlier. Butthere has to be an educational
element to this. Even the majornews publications, and Mark, I
tip my hat to you for havingthis podcast so soon, this is
not being investigated,understood in the same way that
it really needs to be. And so ifyou are already tired of this
topic, steel yourself becauseyou're going to be inundated
(20:46):
with many, many takes over thenext several weeks.
This, of course, being the firstand the most important and the
most accurate. But there will beothers to come. So I think the
answer to the question is it'sgoing to take a little bit of
time. But again, comes back tothere being clarity and not with
the bill. But there is morecertainty, less uncertainty
(21:06):
around this.
And as people understand thatthis is the new world, that this
is the future, there's noturning the clock back on this,
you'll start to see more of anunderstanding around why your
product and your company isgoing to be a key part of the
ecosystem.
Mark Bonner (21:20):
Yeah. And Gabe, I mean, as you well know, I mean,
is an industry that for decadeshas been a little bit anti
technology adoption, right? Andthen, over the course of last
five years, you know, whetherit's AI or any number of things
that have entered the four, youknow, commercial real estate is
trying to shake off thatstereotype, right? Lot of fears
out there about, you know,things like AI and perhaps even
(21:43):
crypto killing jobs. You and Iwere talking earlier about the
ludite fallacy.
Do you think this is a jobkiller or is it a job creator?
Like, how do you view this interms of the longer stretch of
time in the next couple of yearsonce we get beyond the
consultancy phase?
Gabe Marans (22:00):
I think this is a net gain of job creation for a
very simple reason, which isthis is going to introduce an
even faster pace of doingbusiness because of the timeline
that it's going to take in orderto the shrinkage of that
timeline, the lowering of thosefees, those monies, if you're a
(22:21):
business and you're not payingas much in fees in order to
settle trades or sales, wheredoes that money go? That money
is going go somewhere and atleast a portion of that is going
to go to additional jobcreation. And as the pace of
business starts to pick up,they're gonna need more people
in order to help facilitate andassist with that. And so I think
that it's a near, mid, and longterm net gain for jobs.
Mark Bonner (22:46):
The road to mass adoption is probably going to
depend on who builds what.Wallets, custodians, smart
contract registries, andcompliance layers that must come
online, and someone must proveROI. What do you think is the
realistic adoption curve forcrypto tools in commercial real
estate? One year, three years,five years, Gabe? Like how do
(23:09):
you see this playing out?
Gabe Marans (23:10):
I think you'll start to see some players within
the next six months start toembrace them. You'll probably
see a breakout of a major playerwithin the first year. I think
we'll then start to see a slowlyincreasing cascade of players
embrace this to some degree oranother. So I think you're
(23:32):
probably talking about three orfour different time periods. I
pegged the first two at sixmonths, then a year.
Maybe the second tranche happensat two years. I think we'll be
looking back on this in anotherten years and wondering how we
were still settling real estatetransactions that were not on
the blockchain, that were notpegged to stablecoin. All of
(23:53):
this, of course, assuming thatthere's not a big scandal that
poisons everybody's sense thatthis is a safe and secure way of
doing business.
Mark Bonner (24:02):
So, I mean, just to drill down just a little bit
more, Gabe. I mean, who needs tomove first? GPs, LPs, brokers,
lawyers?
Gabe Marans (24:11):
You'll probably start to see LPs and GPs move
first. Lawyers will be, I think,part of this cottage industry
with expertise about how to besttake advantage of this. You'll
start to see some reallydedicate themselves to
understanding how to effectuatesome of the changes that are
outlined within the Genius Billand hopefully over the next two
(24:33):
bills. But it's going to be a GPthat fancies themselves as a new
player on the field. You'llprobably have some LPs, many of
whom have existing holdings to asizable degree of cryptocurrency
and believe ideologically in thefuture of the blockchain and Web
three.
(24:54):
You know, I don't think I everthought I would see a point in
time where a professional sportsplayer would choose to take some
of their salary in Bitcoin.We've seen that over the years.
It still hasn't becomemainstream, but it is not as
wild of an idea as it once was.But I think you'll start to see
more massive adoption within thereal estate space in a more
(25:15):
mainstream capacity. But goingback to your question, it'll be
some individual GPLP.
A journalist will find thestory, find it compelling,
topical, write about it, andothers will then start to
copycat.
Mark Bonner (25:29):
Yeah, I think what we've learned in the last twenty
four to forty hours is thatwe're officially past the hype
phase. This is here. It's notgoing away. This week, these
laws, assuming that Donald Trumpsigns them, real laws, real
framework, real potential. Butas we've discussed, real risk
looms.
Tech, compliance, marketimmaturity. Gabe, if you're
(25:53):
advising a CEO today, what'syour play book? Go now, go
small, wait for proof. What areyou telling a CEO today?
Gabe Marans (26:02):
Yeah, I'd say immediately start exploring
partnerships. You're going towant to think about piloting
stablecoin based transactionsand maybe some non core assets
so that if something goes wrong,it doesn't impact your direct or
your most important criticalbusiness line. And really watch
regulatory guidance veryclosely. I think we're going to
(26:23):
see a lot more come out over thenext six to twelve months in a
way that will help shape andguide all of this. Absolutely
avoid unregulated tokens orplatforms.
You're going to want to focus onuse cases with clear legal
pathways. And through it all, bevery mindful of the benefits,
the ROIs, as you said. Measurethe cost and time advantages and
(26:46):
lean into the ones that aregoing to have the most positive
effect on your business.
Mark Bonner (26:51):
We're running out of time here, Gabe, but I want
to jam in one more question fromthe audience if you have a
second. Question, do you thinkthat US to US based transactions
will want or need this for dealssince banking fees for wire
transfers are not that expensiveand time delay is not overtly
significant?
Gabe Marans (27:12):
If we are defining fees as not that high and time
delay is not that significant,well, what would it look like if
you were to cut that in half?What if you were to take a 3.5%
fee and shrink it to almostnothing or take a three day
timeline to settle a transactionand turn it into something
(27:32):
instantaneous? This is whatwe're talking about with
stablecoins. We're talking aboutnot having to go through the
traditional finance system. Andtime not only kills all deals,
but if you can do them faster,of course, the inverse is also
true.
If you can do things faster,time will save deals. And so,
yes, I think those are the twomajor reasons where you can save
(27:54):
on both time and money. Andthat's exactly the reason why
you're going to see a stronginterest in how do you integrate
this new technology into theexisting business models.
Mark Bonner (28:06):
Okay, I'm getting the hook, Gabe, from my
producer. That's all the time wehave today. Thank you very much
for being here.
Gabe Marans (28:12):
Yeah, thank you, Mark. Really appreciate you
having me. Fantastic talkingabout something that we're
really in the early innings of.
Mark Bonner (28:21):
We'll be back with another episode of First Strap
Live next week, so don't missout. You can sign up now on our
event page. Can also findtoday's episode and all of our
past conversations on yourfavorite podcast app and also at
biznow.com. This is First DraftLive. Have a great weekend
y'all.
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