June 27, 2025 • 43 mins
Get ready to hustle up some bibles, condemn some apostates, and declare that someone IS NO KIN OF YOURS, as tonight the Bop Crew interviews Payton McCarty-Simas, author of That Very Witch: Fear, Feminism, and the American Witch Film. Together they have a fascinating discussion on their favorite witch films, the unique properties of American hysteria, the environmental factors that lead to booms in either witch hunts of witch flicks, why there were so many goddamn warlocks in the eighties, and the explicit fascism of the Veronica Lake vehicle I Married A Witch.
Pick up your copy of That Very Witch: Fear, Feminism, and the American Witch Film: https://www.lunapresspublishing.com/product-page/that-very-witch-that-very-witch-fear-feminism-and-the-american-witch-movie
(also available wherever books are sold!)
Check out Payon on Instagram: @paytplace
- Taboo Acts, Queer Allegories: Cannibalism, Incest, and Queerness as Transgression in Genre Film | PAYTON McCARTY-SIMAS
- The Substance Is a Witch Film | by Payton McCaty-Simas
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:29):
Hello and welcome to BoxOffice Pulp, your one stop podcast
for movies madness, moxie, andtonight, more witches than you can
shake a broom at. I'm going toassume I'm the only person who's
ever made that joke, and ifsomeone else has, I'll be crushed.
So don't tell me if I'm wrong.I'm your host, Cody, and joining
me as always, are my co hosts,Mike and Jamie. We're also joined
today by author Peyton McCartySimmons to discuss their new book,
(00:50):
that Very Fear, Feminism andthe American Witch Film.
Hi.
That was just fun to say.Yeah. Thank you so much for having
us on. I love a good subtitlein a book, too. That makes it seem
so much more official.
Thank you. I actually came upwith the subheading first and then
there were a couple titles wewere debating. One of them was all
of Them Witches, LikeRosemary's Baby. And my editor said
(01:13):
that she liked my originaltitle better. So that Very Witch
stuck. And I do like it a lot.
Nice.
Was it one of those situationswhere you had the whole book written
and then you had to apply atitle to it, or did you kind of had
that subtitle and you're like,this will guide me. We'll figure
out the details later.
I definitely had everythingelse in place, but when I come up
with a title, it usually iswhat stays on the page. So, like,
(01:34):
every chapter, you know, everysubhead in every chapter came to
me pretty quickly. They usedto be longer, actually. I had quotes
attached and, you know, allthese bells and whistles. But I think
there's definitely enough inthere as it is.
So I'm just looking throughthe chapter headings right now, too.
All these are fantastic. Justfor the readers at or listeners at
home. Just to give you some ofthem. There's gender, genre, psychedelics
(01:56):
and the. And objection in the2010s witch horror cycle. What else
do we have? Riot Girls, GirlPower, and the Bitchification of
the Witch. A personalfavorite. I like that one a lot.
I was so disappointed when Igot to the end of the table of contents
and then remembered, oh, thisis just a review copy.
Yeah, yeah, we just had likethe first, I think, 45 pages. So
I will probably accidentallyask something about the end of the
(02:17):
book and you'll have to belike, you just gotta buy and read
it, man.
I can definitely. I can. I cangive you little hints and little
spoilers, you know.
All right, now we're talking.I will say, and I don't want this
to sound like a complaint, butas I was reading through the book,
I kept trying to think ofdiscussion topics for this episode.
And I'd find one and be like,oh, that's gonna make me sound smart.
And then you would addressthat very topic like, two pages later.
(02:38):
So you're always, like, onestep ahead of me. As I was reading
through this thing. I thinkthe people at home are going to love
it because it really feelslike it's covering everything in
so much depth. And that's onlythe first 40 pages. Who knows what
you get up to in the rest of it?
Oh, my God. Thank you. No, Imean, it's. It was a huge undertaking
to try and cover, like, over50 years of cinema history. I mean,
I touch On, I think, 13presidential administrations in this
(03:02):
book. So, yeah, it was, youknow, it took me six or seven years
to research, but. But I reallywanted every chapter to feel like
a mini history, not just ofthe which films I'm talking about,
but of the cinema history ofthe period, the feminist history
of the period, and just kindof like a litmus test for the era
itself, like what's going onin American history at its broadest.
(03:24):
So I'm glad it felt. I'm gladyou guys felt, you know, that it
was comprehensive on that.
Yeah, yeah. I'm addicted tohaving as much context as possible
whenever I'm reading up onstuff like this. So this was like
catnip for me. Like, no, Ihave. I have to know who was president
when this movie came out andwhat, what people were wearing and
what was going on in thecountry at the time. Because so much
of that stuff ends up fallingby the wayside with overviews that
(03:48):
are more focused on just theactual filmmaking. The social context
can be lost so easily, andthen that just leads to us forgetting
all of that stuff totally.
Especially since the socialcontext has such an impact on. On
filmmaking. Right. Like, it's.It would be, I think, remiss for
an author to not mention whentalking about, you know, for example,
(04:09):
like, witch films in the late50s that in the UK, Britain had actually
just repealed their antiwitchcraft laws around that same
time. Oh, yeah. So there'sjust so much stuff going on, like
knowing when a writer's strikeis happening, knowing who's president,
especially under Reagan inparticular, who is such A cinephile
in his own way. Or, you know,it's just. It's important context.
(04:31):
It shapes the movies and, youknow, adds flavor, but also depth,
I think.
Yeah. There's one segment wewere discussing like a day or two
ago where you had brought uplike the 1950s filmscape and just
how much cinema was strugglingduring that period. And you. It kind
of for us made it seem like,oh, yeah, that's just history repeating
itself with the current day of film.
Totally. There are definitelya lot of parallels there. Anytime
(04:54):
we introduce a new format or anew mode, there's one of these crises
in cinema. And a lot of filmhistorians have argued that we're
in a bleaker period than the50s, which is deeply grim.
You know, where's ourCinemaScope? We need a Cinerama or
something right now to pick usback up.
Oh, I think that's 40x.
(05:14):
Good point. Who doesn't loveseeing Twisters with your seat shaken?
Oh, my God.
I've lost count of how manytimes just this past month Mike and
I have been watching B moviefrom the 50s and just turned to each
other and said something alongthe lines of, man, they just kind
of forgot how to make moviesfor like 10 years.
It's. Yeah, it's true.Although I feel like today we've
(05:34):
forgotten how to light a movie.
Oh, yeah, yeah. And then wejust end the show here with everyone
being very depressed.
Honestly, the thing youpointed out that really stopped me
in my tracks was. Yeah, we arekind of addicted to. Well, when times
get tough for movies, bloatingthe run times, instead of shrinking
(05:55):
them down, which you thinkwould be like the logical thing to
do when movies are in trouble.We get the three hour epics.
Yeah, totally. Because it's, Ithink the, the idea. There's a historian
named Foster Hirsch, has anexcellent history of 50s cinema,
and he spends a lot of timetalking about how it's trying to
sell you an experience. Right.In a different way. Which sounds
very familiar today with, youknow, immersive experiences at, you
(06:18):
know, whatever museums. Butalso, like, we come to this place
for magic. And the fact thatthe AMC lead up is now like 25 fucking
minutes long. They're sellingan experience.
Or for the theater nerds,like, check it out, this was filmed
at 30% on IMAX cameras. It'sbigger, which I will say, I do. Eat
up. They got my number there.But it's still a funny way to promote
(06:39):
a movie, truly.
I mean, you know, maybe I'mthe only, like, avid Stubbs Head
here. But, like, they havethis new thing they play before the
IMAX where it' the guy wherehe's mic'd too close and his voice
is too low, and he's talkingabout, like, the specifics of how
the light works through thecamera. And I'm like, this is too
nerdy to sell anything bad.
Asmr.
(07:00):
Do not care about the xenonballs, guys. Like, please.
Someone out there has to care.
Yeah, Martin Score says he'sgoing to come and kill me in my sleep.
He's the only one I sawrecently. He just said that he doesn't
go to public theaters anymorebecause the audiences are too disruptive.
And it's like, we're screwed.We're. We're cooked.
We're totally cooked.
Yeah, it's over.
Called it.
It does remind me when I sawthe Witch in theaters, that was one
(07:21):
of the worst audiences I'veever seen. Like, those people were
complaining the entire timethat the witch wasn't both. It was
too boring and too scary andnot scary enough because they brought
their, like, three year oldwith them. They didn't know what
was happening. They wereunhappy, stayed for the entire movie
and complained the entire time.
And that kid was changed forever.
I can only hope that kid justgrew up to really love horror movies
or was traumatized. I don'tknow which way.
(07:43):
Same deaf.
Yeah, probably both. That wasdefinitely me with some early Paranormal
Activity movies.
I don't know. We've got Mike,on the other hand, who I guess was
watching Hellraiser like, assoon as he emerged from the womb.
I was five.
Oh, five.
Sorry.
My mistake.
I think Videodrome may havecome earlier, and I have, of course,
the Christmas Eve memory ofthe Fly.
Whoa.
Honestly, I would argue thatprepared you for life more than most
(08:05):
other cinema experiences.
Prepared me for life. Preparedme for doing a movie podcast. Little
wins.
So a couple of the things Iwas trying to brainstorm through
and then you actuallymentioned one is Stephen King's theory
that economic or politicalhardships really tend to strengthen
the horror genre. And youtouched right on that. So I guess
I can't steal too much fromyou there because it goes into it
(08:25):
in the book. But how do youfeel the witch film stands currently
with everything that'shappening around us, because things
feel bleak enough where weshould be getting the best witch
material possible.
It's complicated, honestly,because for in the book, I'm arguing
that it's in relation not justto moments of, like, economic turmoil,
but specifically moments ofsocial and political unrest. For
(08:48):
like, you know, social rights,like feminist movements, in particular,
queer liberation, all of thesethings come together and form the
backbone of the anxieties thatfeed the witch movie. And so you
see that in the late 60s andearly 70s, and then you see that
again in the mid late 2010s,right. And that coincides with the
MeToo movement. That coincideswith. With Trump and so many other
(09:08):
things. Right. So you havethese spikes. And I wrote at one
point, I'm trying to remember,when I wrote this article. It was
a. I'm a film critic. So itwas a piece in the Brooklyn Rail.
It was for the Macbeth moviethat one of the Coen brothers did.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I was writing about thefact that the quote, unquote, elevated
horror cycle had run itscourse and yada, yada, yada. But
(09:31):
it's one of those things whereCovid really scrambled our typical
cycles, I think. So thingshave kind of expanded and mutated
and stretched in a lot ofreally interesting and unexpected
ways. So if you look at ourcurrent deeply fractal film landscape,
you can point to a ton ofdifferent things happening for witches
(09:52):
all at once. You know, inmoments of social conservatism and
its Preponderance, like the80s, you have movies that kind of
satirize the witch and makeher into a comedic figure, kind of
diffusing the feminist powerof a figure who, you know, at the
height of the second wave, wasgenuinely scary in the movies. And
here you can see movies likeWicked, where she's, you know, a
(10:15):
kid's figure again.
Right.
At the same time, you can alsosee a lot of, like, they're doing
a witchboard remake. They'redoing practical magic, too. So it's
all over the place in a waythat I think indicates that we don't
really know where we're going,which is part of what's so scary
about. About our. Our time.
The point about Wicked isreally interesting to me because
(10:36):
the way I was looking at mosttrends is the opposite of that. Maybe
start from a comedy place, andthen you would move into a serious,
more grim, dark adaptation.I'm thinking mostly like Sabrina
the Teenage Witch. When theyreadapted that for Netflix and they
decided, okay, instead ofgoing the kind of combi route, let's
make this the ChillingAdventures of Sabrina and go with
the dark version of that. ButWicked is, like you mentioned, the
(10:57):
complete opposite. All of asudden, it's the musical. You took
something that used to beterrifying. The Wicked Witch scared
generations of kids,especially the flying Monkeys. And
now it's not trying that atall. But it was massively successful,
so who knows what peopleactually want?
Yeah. And Sabrina. What isSabrina if not a rearticulation of
what was going on inBewitched, you know? Oh, yeah, they
(11:18):
come and go, they come back.It's eating a little bit of the Addams
Family. There's a lot going onin Sabrina that's reflecting a lot
of older, specifically comedywitches. But yeah, I like, I like
that they did the chillingadventures of Sabrina. I don't watch,
I don't watch any televisionbecause I don't have time. But. But
I dug that one as a, as athing that exists. Same with Wednesday.
(11:39):
I think it's cool that thegoth kids have some, some media to
consume.
Yeah, totally.
Well, it kind of seems likethese days with them casting such
a wide net for any property,it seems like most figures in our
pop culture wear two faces nowwhere they're. It's almost necessary
(11:59):
that everything have a fun,light version for certain audiences
and a much darker, moreintense version for. For different
audiences there. And I'vedefinitely seen that starting to
happen in horror now as we'refinally breaking away from the very
serious decade we've had towhere it kind of feels like we're
going towards a 50, 50 splitbetween what used to be considered
(12:22):
elevated horror and goofyhorror again.
Yeah, which feels very muchlike the 80s to me. It's the, the
exhaustion with the serious.The exhaustion with the art house,
the, the triumphant return of.Of, you know, these big budget, big
action horror comedies and,you know, like, it's the Revenge
of the Ghostbusters kind of avibe. Even though Ghostbusters did
(12:44):
not do well. But, you know,like the Sinners, for example, is
an excellent reminder that youcan do a big fun action horror movie
and it can be smart andinteresting and it doesn't have to
be sodden and kind of maudlinat the same time. And I love a lot
of elevated horror. I talk alot of elevated horror in the book,
(13:04):
but I'm very much enjoying thereturn of energy and a renewed, like,
different, like a change ofdirection. I think we needed it.
Horror definitely feels lessmournful now is, I guess the word
I would use.
To describe it very much. Ithink a lot of it has to do with
pretty much an entiregeneration just went through a massive
bit of trauma and we're seeingsort of the fracturing of tones that's
(13:30):
happening from that. I thinkthat's one of the reasons that it
really feels like Everything'ssort of manic in regards to what's
coming out, what's hittingwith audiences, what's not. It's
going very back and forth.It's like yearning for going deeper
but then can only take so muchof it for so long, has to go in the
other direction. And then,okay, now, now we're calm, calm again.
(13:50):
Let's go back in the, in theother and dig a little bit deeper
now. And we're at this kind oflike psyche fracture moments, especially
right now, where there's afeeling of not knowing where the
importance lies, I think. Andthat's also a place where movies
are having a hard time ingeneral finding their identity. And
(14:10):
horror is always like aninteresting time whenever there is
that identity search forsociety during certain periods. Like
flipping from the 70s to the80s, stuff like that. And I'm really
curious what the horror filmwould look like a year from now versus
what's coming out and what'splanned. Like what it will start
(14:31):
going into the pipeline a yearfrom now.
Sinners two, he said that wasa lie.
He said that was surprising. Ikind of like the idea of him sticking
to his guns, being like, nope,yeah, we made a ton of money. Let's
just leave this one and let it go.
Yeah, no, yeah, I think you'retotally right. Like a lot of the
work I'm doing in the book isto think about movies. Movie cycles
(14:54):
tend to last a decade, but thekind of historians decade. So like
the long 60s, right. You know,they don't actually coincide neatly
with the years. It's not likea kids placement where it's like
and now 1990, you know, andit's, it's interesting because the,
the 60s as we understood themcinematically, like the quote unquote
long 60s really start around1966 and go through the mid 70s.
(15:19):
And then the, the 80s moviesreally coalesced in like 1984 with
Ghostbusters. So I'm, I keepfeeling like we're, we haven't coalesced
yet. We don't know what the2000 and twenties feel like yet.
We're starting to get a sense,but there's so much going on. And
yeah, you can identify thesethreads, like the return to these
big bloated epics like the50s, the return to this kind of,
(15:41):
you know, action movie stufflike the, like the 80s. But you know,
there's also this vibrantindie thing going on. So yeah, we'll
just have to see. I hope wecan. With a little bit more perspective
and a Little bit more time,we'll be able to get a sense, a better
sense of what's going on. But.But, you know, I really can't complain.
I feel like people werecomplaining last year that there
(16:03):
weren't that many good movies.But I do feel like we're, you know,
box office aside, I thinkwe're in a pretty good moment for
filmmaking.
Yeah, I'm definitely stillfinding things I enjoy. It's just
a little tougher because theguaranteed blockbusters aren't necessarily
scratching the itch they used to.
People get very hung up on,oh, no good movies came out because
nothing made any money. Whichis odd because do you have stock
(16:26):
in that particular company ornot? You know, it's just like that's
not the stuff. Like I get itfrom a point of like, oh, I'd like
my movie to go, you know, themovie that I enjoyed to do well and
other people to have been ableto see it and enjoy it. And I would
like. When movies aresuccessful in general, even if it's
stuff I don't like, I thinkwe're kind of past that point. Points
(16:46):
of like the basic model wherethat's going to be a thing to even
focus on anyway, that peoplekind of got to get out of that mindset.
I also think people kind ofneed to let go of the mindset that
it feels weird saying this assuch a movie fan. People need to
let go of the idea thatblockbusters are supposed to be good
(17:07):
because for most of history,blockbusters have been mostly bad.
It's actually kind ofmiraculous that we had about eight
years where it felt like mostof the blockbusters coming out had
a lot of quality control and,and had a little bit more to say
than they were supposed to.But it's kind of like longing for
the 70s autour era all over again.
Half the movies were past isthe past.
(17:32):
Yeah, people forget that thePoseidon Adventure came out like
right before Star Wars. Theywere still making blockbusters before
Spielberg and Lucasrediscovered them. They just weren't
good.
Totally.
To change topics slightlyhere, I was kind of curious because
I love the idea of definingthe witch in terms of American versus
(17:52):
European. When you were goingthrough doing research for this,
did you find that you had tototally exclude European films while
writing or was it a matter ofI have to watch these just so I can
define the American side ofthis but not fixate on the other
half?
Yeah, I mean, it's one ofthose things where there are witch
like figures in almost everyculture on Earth and They all look
(18:16):
different and do differentthings. So I always like to highlight
the fact that witches areunique in the pantheon of horror
movie monsters because a, theyare the only predominantly feminine
horror monster. Like, when youthink about witches, you're usually
thinking about women, whichoften comes with, like, this bioessentialist
thing going on. Because it's amedieval archetype. Right. So that's
(18:39):
a whole can of worms. But atthe same time, it's also an archetype
based in a real history offemicide. And so when you look at
different cultures, you know,East Asian witches have a more ghost
like history. They're also alittle bit more vampiric. Eastern
European witches have a veryvampiric quality. So if you think
about movies like Valerie andher Week of Wonders, that's a witch
(19:00):
movie, also a vampire movie.You know, like, you've got the. The
Latin American witch, whichhas a completely different valence
than the, you know, European.The even Western European witch.
Right. So it's like, in orderto clarify these things, you have
to get your cultural contextin order. I reference several movies.
(19:21):
I cheat a little bit andreference a couple movies from Europe
and one movie from Japan thatI just absolutely adore. The reason
I do those things when I dothem is if they had some importance
in the United States. Right.It's a, you know, it's a cultural
history, and cinema is aglobal art form. So I also talk about
(19:41):
Black Sunday, the. The Baba film.
Yeah, that movie, my personal favorite.
That's so good. But that moviewas based on a Russian short story
shot in Italy, dubbed inEnglish and starred by actors from
various countries, thenimported here by aip. Right. So the
international quality of thesemovies is important. Right. Like,
(20:03):
Don't look now, which isanother favorite. Which movie of
mine is American Actors in aBritish Film? You know, there was
an Australian contingent, butthe reason I really focused in on
America was because I am ascholar of American history. And
I think there's something veryparticular with our nation's history
of American witchcraft. Right.Like, you can bring it back to the
(20:26):
Salem witch trials and the waythat American feminists in particular
have deployed this archetypeas a symbol of feminist resistance.
So that history is both globalin that it happens everywhere and
specific in that its impactsand the shapes and forms it takes
vary. So I focus on Americabecause it's what I know. I'm passionate
(20:49):
about it. And I think thisbook for me was a little bit of a
form of therapy. A little bit.It was like, how did we get to this
fucked up place we're in. Why.Why are the politics the way they
are? And what can the mediathat we make that presents us with
our unconscious fearsilluminate about that history?
I think that's what I think.Like that last point is what was
(21:12):
so interesting to me about thebook when I was reading it is whenever
we look back on movie historyand we to look at, oh, what was society
going through at the time,blah, blah, blah, it's always in
very broad strokes, it'susually pop culture. And then a little
bit of, well, here's what's inthe zeitgeist, you know, here. Well,
Vietnam's happening, soobviously this influence.
You know, it's always thatMike wants more Iran Contra. He just
(21:34):
needs to know about it.
But what we don't really focuson is like getting into the nitty
gritty. Like, because America,even more so than other countries,
really utilizes its media, itsmovies specifically, even from early
on, as propaganda to try tosway public consciousness. And no
one truly examines thecontingent of movies that do exist,
(21:58):
particularly from olderperiods, but even to modern day,
that are made by people whoare trying to reverse course on things
negatively and occasionally,possibly, but more often than not
just negatively, particularlyfrom big studios or things that get
big release, you start feelingthe American complex infect movies
(22:21):
starting at a certain point.And I've never really seen it viewed
through specifically the witchfilm. And how kind of hard of a turn
every time it felt like, oh,no, we don't like that there's progress
in any direction. Let's use awitch movie to try to get our point
across about what we thinkreality should be.
(22:43):
That was like a canary in thecoal mine. Like, oh, are things getting
too progressive? Check and seeif there's a witch movie out.
Yeah, totally. Exactly. It'sso, yeah, it's one of those things
where that, that fascinates metoo, right. Because it's not, it's
not just conscious, right.Where you have. I always come back
to Reagan because he was sodeliciously unsubtle with his, his
movie nonsense, right. But he,he watches War Games and that shapes
(23:06):
his, his like, you know,global policy. And then he starts,
he calls this thing Star wars,right? You have these, these figures
who watch media and thatinforms them and vice versa. But
I also tried to highlight, inperiods of transition, movies that
weren't very successful butthat were hyper commercial, like
(23:28):
exploitation movies, I thinkcan tell you more about what's going
on in the culture and thananything else because what those
people do is they identify atrend and then they make the movie
without doing any research orthought based on what they think
people want to see.
And that no sociologist hashis finger on the pulse of America
(23:48):
like Roger Corman did.
Dude, Roger Corman was greatat it. He was brilliant at doing
it. And he pushed the needleright. With his. His psychedelic
horror cycle. Like, that wastremendous and a reflection on what
was going on with Tim Learyand with Nixon's burgeoning war on
drugs. And he was also justlike a king for doing all of it.
But. But those were overtlypolitical movies. And you know, am
(24:13):
I saying that afraid from lastyear or this year or whenever the
hell that was is a good film?No, but am I saying you could probably
look at that movie and unpacka little bit of what's going on right
now with our concerns around?I. Absolutely. You know.
Yeah.
One thing I've noticed that'sbeen on my mind since reading the
early chapters of your book iswhile this happens all around the
(24:36):
world with their media cycles,it feels that America is the most
hardcore about using genre tolaunder ideas into greater society.
Like first with pulp novelsbecoming movies that then go on to
be influential, and now withthis, the genre movies themselves
(24:58):
going on to influence people.Like, and you get things like William
Peter Blatty and Ira11accidentally triggering the satanic
panic because of their novels.
Yeah.
It just, it feels like again,every country does this, but America
makes it their bread and butter.
Yeah. And the 60s and 7, likethe. The mid-70s transitioning into
(25:20):
the 80s are such an excellentcase study for this. Right. Because
if you want like a formula forhow these kinds of panics emerge,
it's like, you know, resurgentsocial justice movements meets a
renewed wave of evangelicalChristianity equals big conservative
backlash, equals paranoia. Andthen you get things like the satanic
(25:43):
panic or QAnon, you know, and.And it just happens over and over
again. I think part of it isbecause we're such a diverse and
polyglot enormous nation ofimmigrants that it leads to this.
This mixing that our massmedia is kind of a reflection of.
It's a release valve for a lotof the tensions we have. And because
(26:06):
Hollywood is such a hegemonicforce. Right. It's going to be more
prominent here than in like asmaller country like, you know, England,
where they're. They'reinteresting because they're like
less subtle with it. Right.Where the video nasties scare is
just a much more overt anddirect and legal way of doing the
(26:26):
same thing we did in the USwhere evangelical pastors were burning
copies of the Exorcist andgoing on their TV channels to be
like, this is porn. You know?So it's a combo of how diverse we
are and our free speechprotections and the history of our
cinema means we have the spaceto. To explore these fears in a.
In a different way. I'd saythis is all spitballing, but that's
(26:50):
what. That's what that made me think.
It was all confident enough tomake me believe I'd put it down on
paper. Oh, nuts. I was makingthat joke and I forgot the comment
I had. This is what I get fortrying to make jokes. No, I think
I was going to rewind a littlebit to America as a backdrop for
these stories, just because itfeels to me like there is a trope
in a lot of horror witch filmswhere they're bifurcated in timeline.
(27:10):
Like they always have aprologue setback in the Salem witch
trials or some sort offictional approximation of it.
Yes.
And it really feels likethey're setting up the idea of this
is America's original sin. Andthen we jump forward into the present
day where that evil has beenunleashed. Or maybe not even evil,
depending on how the movie isset up. This could be like a righteous
vengeance or maybe a vengeanceout of control. There's always.
(27:34):
And it's so fun. Like, that'spart of what makes these movies cathartic.
Right. Is like, you know, eventhe really terrible ones, like, there's
some really bad 80s witchmovies that use that trope, but it's
super cathartic because it's.These movies often center women.
They present you with theimage of women being, you know, murdered
(27:54):
for the crime of being toohot. And then the woman in the present.
Oh, yeah. There's a moviecalled the Devonsville Terror that
I absolutely love on this.It's got a very checked out Donald
Pleasence in it.
It's Donald Pleasance.
Yeah. But it's a really coolone for that.
(28:14):
It's.
It's very explicitly feminist.It kind of falls off at the end.
But. But yeah, in terms ofthat presenting, foregrounding the
history of violence againstwomen and then drawing that through
to the present in the diegesisof the film, where it's like they
start a new witch trial, like,witch hunt against these women who
are single and have jobs.
How dare they?
(28:34):
Yeah, so. So, yeah, it's. It'scool. Not all of them do it, but
they definitely center thathistory in one way. Or another. And
then you have other counterexamples where it's like that history
is presented as more fearfulthan tragic, and that. That also
says a lot about the film'sperspective and the fears we're exploring.
Well, it's very interestinghow American media tackles that history
(28:59):
because it almost feels like acase of stolen valor at a certain
point, because as horrific asthe Salem witch Trials are, they
do pale in comparison to whathappened in Europe in the 1600s.
And America seems to have thisweird love hate relationship. But
the fact that that happenedover here too, like, we acknowledge
(29:21):
it as terrible, and obviouslythat's. That really speaks to the
heart of what's wrong withAmerica and our puritanical roots.
But at the same time, isn't itkind of wicked that the Salem witch
trials happened? Kind of likean identity crisis we have as a country?
Yeah, totally. It's. I mean,we're such a comparatively young
nation that I think we justtake our. The specifics of our early
(29:44):
history incredibly seriouslyin a. In a pretty distinct way.
Right.
And this is, like, built intothe fabric. It's a counterpoint to
the. One of the. Manycounterpoints to the kind of elementary
school narrative around, like,the Puritans, and they came in and
they rocked and they killedall the Native Americans and their
wives because they didn't likethem anymore, you know, so. So it's
(30:06):
just one of those, you.
Know, the first Thanksgiving.
Yeah.
And that was the blood. Yeah.
All right, now everyone drawyour hand turkeys.
So.
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
No, you mentioned earlierabout there being a lot of bad 80s
witch movies in particular,and I was curious about that bit
because you're right, witchesdidn't go away in Cinema in the 80s,
(30:29):
but I'd be hard pressed tothink of a single iconic witch from
that decade. I'm curious ifyou have any perspective on why that
would be, because it's notlike those social issues weren't
at the forefront during that decade.
Yeah. That chapter, that partof the book was probably the most
complex to write because it.It centers around a paradox, which
(30:51):
is if the Satanic panic ispositing that in America, one of
the major central problems iswitchcraft, then why are there no
witches in the movies? Wheredid they go? What. What does that
say?
Into warlocks at the time, forsome reason.
I just wrote a paper aboutthat, actually. Yeah. And I said
(31:12):
that was because of the AIDScrisis, you know, so. Preview of.
Of coming papers, I guess.But. But yeah, like the. The response.
My. The thing I was talkingabout there is like, the way backlash
operates is to diffuse thepower of the symbol by presenting
it as cliched and tired. And,you know, like, feminists are. Are
(31:33):
not fun, and they're not sexy,and they're frumpy, grumpy women
who, you know, don't want to,like, have a home life or a sex life.
And witches are scary and sexyand hot, so you need to kind of downplay
that in order to make thatwork. Whereas warlocks are. Are the
opposite. You know, they. Theycome to the fore for a kind of inverse
(31:54):
reason where, you know, youcan talk about, like, the celluloid
closet, right, where you'vegot this preponderance of comic buffoon
homophobic stereotypes andhorny, evil homophobic stereotypes
that. That come together inthe warlock to present, like, this
danger to our young boys,Anita Bryant style. But. But if you
look slightly outside of theframe of horror proper, you will
(32:18):
see several iconic witches inthe 80s, specifically Elvira, Queen
of my life, in Elvira,Mistress of the Dark, who is a really
great ambassador for, like,you know, sex, positivity, and counterculturalism
in a decade bereft of both,because she's not scary, she's fun,
she's reassuring to anaudience that even your friendly
(32:41):
neighborhood goth is friendlyand comes in peace. And then on the
other side, you have thewitches of Eastwick, which. I love
that movie. That movie isdeeply conservative, and nobody likes
to talk about it because it'sgot the three coolest women of all
time and Jack Nicholson, andit's really fun, but it's very conservative,
and it's based on an even moreconservative novel written to explicitly
(33:04):
denigrate sexual liberationand tell women to go home.
So, you know, again, anotherpiece of context about that book
that was just lost by history.Yeah, I know. Sometimes books and
movies are made for reasons.
Dude, no. I read a piece whenI was writing this book that called
the novel the Witches ofEastwick. Something delicious. It
was like the ultimatemisogynist screed of its era. And
(33:27):
I'm like, okay, I wouldn't gothat far, but it is really bad.
So I'm sorry. I adore JackNicholson, but the moment he walks
onto set, your movie hasbecome sexist. It's the law of the
universe.
They were like, oh, yeah, theguy from the Shining will be perfect.
Actually, you mentionedElvira. I'm curious. Have you ever
seen the pilot to the unmadeElvira sitcom from the 80s?
(33:51):
Oh, my God, no.
Oh, my God. You can find it onYouTube right now. It's fascinating.
It was made like 88, I think.And it's just Sabrina the Teenage
Witch with Elvira completewith a talking cat. But years before
Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
That would have been better.Sabrina. I'm trying to remember that
actress's name. She disavowedthe show because she's an evangelical.
(34:15):
Oh, Melissa Joan Hart.
Yeah.
Yeah. She makes pure flicksmovies now.
Yeah. Elvira would never.Because Andrew Peterson would simply
not do that. She's great. I'llhave to check that out.
So when you were writing thebook, how did you navigate kind of
the blurry thresholds betweenlike the folk horror sub genre and
which specific films or didyou not really have to worry about
(34:35):
that since America doesn'tnecessarily make as many folk horror
film?
Yeah, it gets complicatedwhere I feel like. And hopefully
when people read this book,they'll share my curse. Right. But
it's like once you startthinking about this, you will never
stop seeing witch movies.They're everywhere all the time.
It's just a thing. And socreating those delineations can be
(34:58):
challenging becausesupernaturalism is just an American
hobby. But there I watchedover. I think I watched like somewhere
in the neighborhood of 300films for this book. And every one
of those films had a witchcharacter, like an explicitly witch
character. So I tried to keepit really within that realm right
(35:20):
there. I mean, there are somewhere you could argue that it's not
witches per se. Right. Likesomeone told me that they didn't
think that Midsommar countedwhen that's a neo pagan community.
That to me is. It's explicitlypracticing witchcraft. Right. So
yeah, that's witches byanother name. But beyond that, there
really aren't any otherexamples like that in the book. And
(35:40):
so, yeah, I mean, if you wentoutside the realm of there is a witch
in the film, then you would bewatching like a good 30% of American
horror films.
I mean, even if there is justa witch in the film, I feel like
there's probably a lot of edgecases in there. I mean, if you really
wanted to be a stick in themud, you could make a case that the
Blair Witch Project, since itdoesn't explicitly show a witch,
(36:01):
couldn't be considered. Thisis devil's advocating here. I don't
know if I would make thatargument myself, but I could see
someone making it who'spedantic like myself.
Well, I actually didn't writeabout. I had a section on the Blair
Witch Project and then I cutit because it wasn't. It didn't feel
necessary. Which might soundodd given its tremendous popularity
and impact. Right. Althoughit's interesting because that movie
(36:25):
itself doesn't abide by any ofthe tropes, but they had a tie in
TV special as one of their gimmicks.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that movie. Yeah, it's sogood. And it touches on basically
the entirety of the metahistory around witchcraft in America.
Right. Where it's got the. Oneof the talking heads is like a hippie
(36:46):
dude who's talking about,like, you know, witch chicks in the
whatever. So it's just kind ofacknowledges that history in its
broader landscape in a waythat I think really proves a lot
of my thesis. I watched thatand I was like, I knew it. But that
didn't make the book either,because there was nothing to say
beyond, look, it's what Ialready said.
(37:07):
Yeah, that's got to be thehard part. There's, you know, thousands
of movies out there. You can'tinclude them all. Even if they are
popular or one of yourpersonal favorites. It won't necessarily
fit with everything else. Yougot to streamline parts of it.
So I will bring up one thingabout Blair Witch Project, the film
proper. And arguably you couldsay that outside of Curse of the
Blair Witch, there isn'treally much quote unquote mythology
(37:29):
that's in the film proper. Andas that universe got expanded, witch
is just the term that's usedfor the entity that's there, that
it kind of latched on to theAmericanized concept of a witch and
the fears the town had onsomeone who they accused being a
witch. But the interestingthing is, outside of that, the Blair
(37:51):
Witch was inspired by another,an actual quote unquote Marilyn witch
named Maldire, who I currentlylive near the Maldire Rock, which
is the rock she was supposedlyexecuted on. But here's the interesting
thing. Maldire may not haveactually existed and essentially
been a witch movie conjuringby the people of Maryland at the
(38:15):
time to essentially spreadwhat is a witch legend that's demonizes
women and demonizes. Like, Ithink she was supposed to have come
over from a ship, like, soshe's a little bit of an. Of an Other
that immigrated here and likeall this stuff. And it's possible
maybe she was partiallyinspired by someone in a really Greek
(38:37):
mythology sort of way, someonewho was walking around. But for the
most part, it's likely mostthings about her completely made
up at the time to essentiallyspread this story to create fear.
So a Hansel and Gretel kind ofThing like, eh, here's a scary story.
Stay straight and narrow.
That's totally fascinating.
So as we're kind of runningshort on time, let's just do one
(38:57):
more question to kind of wrapthings up here. As you were going
through doing all of yourresearch, what are some of the witch
films you think would bereally helpful for people to watch
maybe before reading the bookor some you feel are maybe just underseen
and folks really need to givea shot?
Totally. I'm actuallyprogramming a series of witch films
in the summer in New York withthat premise. But underseen movies
(39:22):
that I'm really excited forpeople to dig into after reading
this book. One of them isHerschel Gordon Lewis's Something
weird. It's a 1967exploitation film that, you know,
if you're, if you're a cultmovie head, I think you will love
this movie. It's. It's totallybananas. It has to be seen to be
believed. It involves like,LSD and karate and there's an invisible
(39:44):
sheep ghost that gets foughtit slaps. Would recommend. But in
terms of like, actualimpactful and meaningfully good movies,
I would say above and beyond,I would absolutely recommend everyone
check out George Romero'sSeason of the Witch. It's so amazing.
As both a feminist film and asjust like an underseen gem from his
(40:05):
filmography, he was respondingto women's liberation and the like,
the occult revival of thesixties in the same way that Stephen
King was with Carrie. Andit's. Yeah, it's a really cool text.
Beyond that, I think there aredefinitely films in here that if
you haven't already seen them,like, you should like people who
haven't seen practical magic,go watch practical magic and cry
(40:27):
and eat popcorn. But yeah, Ifeel like once you start watching
witch movies, they stay withyou forever. There's something very
cathartic about this sub genrebecause usually it's women kicking
ass and getting revenge. Andwho doesn't like that?
I don't have anything betterto say. That's a great way to tag
the show. That should havebeen like a subtitle on the book.
Mike, steal that for the titleof the podcast. The description.
(40:49):
Good work. All right, well, Ithink we've taken enough time for
today. Thank you so much forjoining us. For the audience at home,
where is the best spot forthem to purchase the book?
You can pick it up whereverbooks are sold. It's available for
pre order on Barnes and Nobleright now. You can follow me on Instagram
and I post updates there. Soyeah, it'll probably be at your local
(41:10):
bookstore. I'm excited.
Awesome. Thank you so mucheveryone at home. If you do not buy
at least one copy of that veryFear of Feminism and the American
Witch film, we're not friendsanymore. It's that serious. So go
out, get your pre orders in.Let us know what you think of it
once you get a chance to checkthis out. I'm a huge fan. I can't
wait to read the rest.
Of it and stay friends with Cody.
That's it. The only cudgel Ihave to wave at, folks. All right,
(41:33):
well, I think that's going todo it for us. Thank you again so
much for joining us. We'llhave to get you back sometime for
like a commentary on likewitching and bitching or something.
Totally. This is a blast.Thank you.
All right, folks, thank youfor joining us. You can find more
Box Office Pulp wherever weget your podcasts. We're on Spotify,
itunes. Does itunes existanymore? I'm just saying that we're
out there. Just look up BoxOffice Pulp. Anyways, thanks for
listening. That's a wrap.
Hello and welcome to BoxOffice Pulp, your one stop podcast
for movies madness, moxie, andtonight, more witches than you can
shake a broom at. I'm going toassume I'm the only person who's
ever made that joke, and ifsomeone else has, I'll be crushed.
So don't tell me if I'm wrong.I'm your host, Cody, and joining
me as always, are my co hosts,Mike and Jamie. We're also joined
today by author Peyton McCartySimmons to discuss their new book,
(00:50):
that Very Fear, Feminism andthe American Witch Film.
Hi.
That was just fun to say.Yeah. Thank you so much for having
us on. I love a good subtitlein a book, too. That makes it seem
so much more official.
Thank you. I actually came upwith the subheading first and then
there were a couple titles wewere debating. One of them was all
of Them Witches, LikeRosemary's Baby. And my editor said
(01:13):
that she liked my originaltitle better. So that Very Witch
stuck. And I do like it a lot.
Nice.
Was it one of those situationswhere you had the whole book written
and then you had to apply atitle to it, or did you kind of had
that subtitle and you're like,this will guide me. We'll figure
out the details later.
I definitely had everythingelse in place, but when I come up
with a title, it usually iswhat stays on the page. So, like,
(01:34):
every chapter, you know, everysubhead in every chapter came to
me pretty quickly. They usedto be longer, actually. I had quotes
attached and, you know, allthese bells and whistles. But I think
there's definitely enough inthere as it is.
So I'm just looking throughthe chapter headings right now, too.
All these are fantastic. Justfor the readers at or listeners at
home. Just to give you some ofthem. There's gender, genre, psychedelics
(01:56):
and the. And objection in the2010s witch horror cycle. What else
do we have? Riot Girls, GirlPower, and the Bitchification of
the Witch. A personalfavorite. I like that one a lot.
I was so disappointed when Igot to the end of the table of contents
and then remembered, oh, thisis just a review copy.
Yeah, yeah, we just had likethe first, I think, 45 pages. So
I will probably accidentallyask something about the end of the
(02:17):
book and you'll have to belike, you just gotta buy and read
it, man.
I can definitely. I can. I cangive you little hints and little
spoilers, you know.
All right, now we're talking.I will say, and I don't want this
to sound like a complaint, butas I was reading through the book,
I kept trying to think ofdiscussion topics for this episode.
And I'd find one and be like,oh, that's gonna make me sound smart.
And then you would addressthat very topic like, two pages later.
(02:38):
So you're always, like, onestep ahead of me. As I was reading
through this thing. I thinkthe people at home are going to love
it because it really feelslike it's covering everything in
so much depth. And that's onlythe first 40 pages. Who knows what
you get up to in the rest of it?
Oh, my God. Thank you. No, Imean, it's. It was a huge undertaking
to try and cover, like, over50 years of cinema history. I mean,
I touch On, I think, 13presidential administrations in this
(03:02):
book. So, yeah, it was, youknow, it took me six or seven years
to research, but. But I reallywanted every chapter to feel like
a mini history, not just ofthe which films I'm talking about,
but of the cinema history ofthe period, the feminist history
of the period, and just kindof like a litmus test for the era
itself, like what's going onin American history at its broadest.
(03:24):
So I'm glad it felt. I'm gladyou guys felt, you know, that it
was comprehensive on that.
Yeah, yeah. I'm addicted tohaving as much context as possible
whenever I'm reading up onstuff like this. So this was like
catnip for me. Like, no, Ihave. I have to know who was president
when this movie came out andwhat, what people were wearing and
what was going on in thecountry at the time. Because so much
of that stuff ends up fallingby the wayside with overviews that
(03:48):
are more focused on just theactual filmmaking. The social context
can be lost so easily, andthen that just leads to us forgetting
all of that stuff totally.
Especially since the socialcontext has such an impact on. On
filmmaking. Right. Like, it's.It would be, I think, remiss for
an author to not mention whentalking about, you know, for example,
(04:09):
like, witch films in the late50s that in the UK, Britain had actually
just repealed their antiwitchcraft laws around that same
time. Oh, yeah. So there'sjust so much stuff going on, like
knowing when a writer's strikeis happening, knowing who's president,
especially under Reagan inparticular, who is such A cinephile
in his own way. Or, you know,it's just. It's important context.
(04:31):
It shapes the movies and, youknow, adds flavor, but also depth,
I think.
Yeah. There's one segment wewere discussing like a day or two
ago where you had brought uplike the 1950s filmscape and just
how much cinema was strugglingduring that period. And you. It kind
of for us made it seem like,oh, yeah, that's just history repeating
itself with the current day of film.
Totally. There are definitelya lot of parallels there. Anytime
(04:54):
we introduce a new format or anew mode, there's one of these crises
in cinema. And a lot of filmhistorians have argued that we're
in a bleaker period than the50s, which is deeply grim.
You know, where's ourCinemaScope? We need a Cinerama or
something right now to pick usback up.
Oh, I think that's 40x.
(05:14):
Good point. Who doesn't loveseeing Twisters with your seat shaken?
Oh, my God.
I've lost count of how manytimes just this past month Mike and
I have been watching B moviefrom the 50s and just turned to each
other and said something alongthe lines of, man, they just kind
of forgot how to make moviesfor like 10 years.
It's. Yeah, it's true.Although I feel like today we've
(05:34):
forgotten how to light a movie.
Oh, yeah, yeah. And then wejust end the show here with everyone
being very depressed.
Honestly, the thing youpointed out that really stopped me
in my tracks was. Yeah, we arekind of addicted to. Well, when times
get tough for movies, bloatingthe run times, instead of shrinking
(05:55):
them down, which you thinkwould be like the logical thing to
do when movies are in trouble.We get the three hour epics.
Yeah, totally. Because it's, Ithink the, the idea. There's a historian
named Foster Hirsch, has anexcellent history of 50s cinema,
and he spends a lot of timetalking about how it's trying to
sell you an experience. Right.In a different way. Which sounds
very familiar today with, youknow, immersive experiences at, you
(06:18):
know, whatever museums. Butalso, like, we come to this place
for magic. And the fact thatthe AMC lead up is now like 25 fucking
minutes long. They're sellingan experience.
Or for the theater nerds,like, check it out, this was filmed
at 30% on IMAX cameras. It'sbigger, which I will say, I do. Eat
up. They got my number there.But it's still a funny way to promote
(06:39):
a movie, truly.
I mean, you know, maybe I'mthe only, like, avid Stubbs Head
here. But, like, they havethis new thing they play before the
IMAX where it' the guy wherehe's mic'd too close and his voice
is too low, and he's talkingabout, like, the specifics of how
the light works through thecamera. And I'm like, this is too
nerdy to sell anything bad.
Asmr.
(07:00):
Do not care about the xenonballs, guys. Like, please.
Someone out there has to care.
Yeah, Martin Score says he'sgoing to come and kill me in my sleep.
He's the only one I sawrecently. He just said that he doesn't
go to public theaters anymorebecause the audiences are too disruptive.
And it's like, we're screwed.We're. We're cooked.
We're totally cooked.
Yeah, it's over.
Called it.
It does remind me when I sawthe Witch in theaters, that was one
(07:21):
of the worst audiences I'veever seen. Like, those people were
complaining the entire timethat the witch wasn't both. It was
too boring and too scary andnot scary enough because they brought
their, like, three year oldwith them. They didn't know what
was happening. They wereunhappy, stayed for the entire movie
and complained the entire time.
And that kid was changed forever.
I can only hope that kid justgrew up to really love horror movies
or was traumatized. I don'tknow which way.
(07:43):
Same deaf.
Yeah, probably both. That wasdefinitely me with some early Paranormal
Activity movies.
I don't know. We've got Mike,on the other hand, who I guess was
watching Hellraiser like, assoon as he emerged from the womb.
I was five.
Oh, five.
Sorry.
My mistake.
I think Videodrome may havecome earlier, and I have, of course,
the Christmas Eve memory ofthe Fly.
Whoa.
Honestly, I would argue thatprepared you for life more than most
(08:05):
other cinema experiences.
Prepared me for life. Preparedme for doing a movie podcast. Little
wins.
So a couple of the things Iwas trying to brainstorm through
and then you actuallymentioned one is Stephen King's theory
that economic or politicalhardships really tend to strengthen
the horror genre. And youtouched right on that. So I guess
I can't steal too much fromyou there because it goes into it
(08:25):
in the book. But how do youfeel the witch film stands currently
with everything that'shappening around us, because things
feel bleak enough where weshould be getting the best witch
material possible.
It's complicated, honestly,because for in the book, I'm arguing
that it's in relation not justto moments of, like, economic turmoil,
but specifically moments ofsocial and political unrest. For
(08:48):
like, you know, social rights,like feminist movements, in particular,
queer liberation, all of thesethings come together and form the
backbone of the anxieties thatfeed the witch movie. And so you
see that in the late 60s andearly 70s, and then you see that
again in the mid late 2010s,right. And that coincides with the
MeToo movement. That coincideswith. With Trump and so many other
(09:08):
things. Right. So you havethese spikes. And I wrote at one
point, I'm trying to remember,when I wrote this article. It was
a. I'm a film critic. So itwas a piece in the Brooklyn Rail.
It was for the Macbeth moviethat one of the Coen brothers did.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I was writing about thefact that the quote, unquote, elevated
horror cycle had run itscourse and yada, yada, yada. But
(09:31):
it's one of those things whereCovid really scrambled our typical
cycles, I think. So thingshave kind of expanded and mutated
and stretched in a lot ofreally interesting and unexpected
ways. So if you look at ourcurrent deeply fractal film landscape,
you can point to a ton ofdifferent things happening for witches
(09:52):
all at once. You know, inmoments of social conservatism and
its Preponderance, like the80s, you have movies that kind of
satirize the witch and makeher into a comedic figure, kind of
diffusing the feminist powerof a figure who, you know, at the
height of the second wave, wasgenuinely scary in the movies. And
here you can see movies likeWicked, where she's, you know, a
(10:15):
kid's figure again.
Right.
At the same time, you can alsosee a lot of, like, they're doing
a witchboard remake. They'redoing practical magic, too. So it's
all over the place in a waythat I think indicates that we don't
really know where we're going,which is part of what's so scary
about. About our. Our time.
The point about Wicked isreally interesting to me because
(10:36):
the way I was looking at mosttrends is the opposite of that. Maybe
start from a comedy place, andthen you would move into a serious,
more grim, dark adaptation.I'm thinking mostly like Sabrina
the Teenage Witch. When theyreadapted that for Netflix and they
decided, okay, instead ofgoing the kind of combi route, let's
make this the ChillingAdventures of Sabrina and go with
the dark version of that. ButWicked is, like you mentioned, the
(10:57):
complete opposite. All of asudden, it's the musical. You took
something that used to beterrifying. The Wicked Witch scared
generations of kids,especially the flying Monkeys. And
now it's not trying that atall. But it was massively successful,
so who knows what peopleactually want?
Yeah. And Sabrina. What isSabrina if not a rearticulation of
what was going on inBewitched, you know? Oh, yeah, they
(11:18):
come and go, they come back.It's eating a little bit of the Addams
Family. There's a lot going onin Sabrina that's reflecting a lot
of older, specifically comedywitches. But yeah, I like, I like
that they did the chillingadventures of Sabrina. I don't watch,
I don't watch any televisionbecause I don't have time. But. But
I dug that one as a, as athing that exists. Same with Wednesday.
(11:39):
I think it's cool that thegoth kids have some, some media to
consume.
Yeah, totally.
Well, it kind of seems likethese days with them casting such
a wide net for any property,it seems like most figures in our
pop culture wear two faces nowwhere they're. It's almost necessary
(11:59):
that everything have a fun,light version for certain audiences
and a much darker, moreintense version for. For different
audiences there. And I'vedefinitely seen that starting to
happen in horror now as we'refinally breaking away from the very
serious decade we've had towhere it kind of feels like we're
going towards a 50, 50 splitbetween what used to be considered
(12:22):
elevated horror and goofyhorror again.
Yeah, which feels very muchlike the 80s to me. It's the, the
exhaustion with the serious.The exhaustion with the art house,
the, the triumphant return of.Of, you know, these big budget, big
action horror comedies and,you know, like, it's the Revenge
of the Ghostbusters kind of avibe. Even though Ghostbusters did
(12:44):
not do well. But, you know,like the Sinners, for example, is
an excellent reminder that youcan do a big fun action horror movie
and it can be smart andinteresting and it doesn't have to
be sodden and kind of maudlinat the same time. And I love a lot
of elevated horror. I talk alot of elevated horror in the book,
(13:04):
but I'm very much enjoying thereturn of energy and a renewed, like,
different, like a change ofdirection. I think we needed it.
Horror definitely feels lessmournful now is, I guess the word
I would use.
To describe it very much. Ithink a lot of it has to do with
pretty much an entiregeneration just went through a massive
bit of trauma and we're seeingsort of the fracturing of tones that's
(13:30):
happening from that. I thinkthat's one of the reasons that it
really feels like Everything'ssort of manic in regards to what's
coming out, what's hittingwith audiences, what's not. It's
going very back and forth.It's like yearning for going deeper
but then can only take so muchof it for so long, has to go in the
other direction. And then,okay, now, now we're calm, calm again.
(13:50):
Let's go back in the, in theother and dig a little bit deeper
now. And we're at this kind oflike psyche fracture moments, especially
right now, where there's afeeling of not knowing where the
importance lies, I think. Andthat's also a place where movies
are having a hard time ingeneral finding their identity. And
(14:10):
horror is always like aninteresting time whenever there is
that identity search forsociety during certain periods. Like
flipping from the 70s to the80s, stuff like that. And I'm really
curious what the horror filmwould look like a year from now versus
what's coming out and what'splanned. Like what it will start
(14:31):
going into the pipeline a yearfrom now.
Sinners two, he said that wasa lie.
He said that was surprising. Ikind of like the idea of him sticking
to his guns, being like, nope,yeah, we made a ton of money. Let's
just leave this one and let it go.
Yeah, no, yeah, I think you'retotally right. Like a lot of the
work I'm doing in the book isto think about movies. Movie cycles
(14:54):
tend to last a decade, but thekind of historians decade. So like
the long 60s, right. You know,they don't actually coincide neatly
with the years. It's not likea kids placement where it's like
and now 1990, you know, andit's, it's interesting because the,
the 60s as we understood themcinematically, like the quote unquote
long 60s really start around1966 and go through the mid 70s.
(15:19):
And then the, the 80s moviesreally coalesced in like 1984 with
Ghostbusters. So I'm, I keepfeeling like we're, we haven't coalesced
yet. We don't know what the2000 and twenties feel like yet.
We're starting to get a sense,but there's so much going on. And
yeah, you can identify thesethreads, like the return to these
big bloated epics like the50s, the return to this kind of,
(15:41):
you know, action movie stufflike the, like the 80s. But you know,
there's also this vibrantindie thing going on. So yeah, we'll
just have to see. I hope wecan. With a little bit more perspective
and a Little bit more time,we'll be able to get a sense, a better
sense of what's going on. But.But, you know, I really can't complain.
I feel like people werecomplaining last year that there
(16:03):
weren't that many good movies.But I do feel like we're, you know,
box office aside, I thinkwe're in a pretty good moment for
filmmaking.
Yeah, I'm definitely stillfinding things I enjoy. It's just
a little tougher because theguaranteed blockbusters aren't necessarily
scratching the itch they used to.
People get very hung up on,oh, no good movies came out because
nothing made any money. Whichis odd because do you have stock
(16:26):
in that particular company ornot? You know, it's just like that's
not the stuff. Like I get itfrom a point of like, oh, I'd like
my movie to go, you know, themovie that I enjoyed to do well and
other people to have been ableto see it and enjoy it. And I would
like. When movies aresuccessful in general, even if it's
stuff I don't like, I thinkwe're kind of past that point. Points
(16:46):
of like the basic model wherethat's going to be a thing to even
focus on anyway, that peoplekind of got to get out of that mindset.
I also think people kind ofneed to let go of the mindset that
it feels weird saying this assuch a movie fan. People need to
let go of the idea thatblockbusters are supposed to be good
(17:07):
because for most of history,blockbusters have been mostly bad.
It's actually kind ofmiraculous that we had about eight
years where it felt like mostof the blockbusters coming out had
a lot of quality control and,and had a little bit more to say
than they were supposed to.But it's kind of like longing for
the 70s autour era all over again.
Half the movies were past isthe past.
(17:32):
Yeah, people forget that thePoseidon Adventure came out like
right before Star Wars. Theywere still making blockbusters before
Spielberg and Lucasrediscovered them. They just weren't
good.
Totally.
To change topics slightlyhere, I was kind of curious because
I love the idea of definingthe witch in terms of American versus
(17:52):
European. When you were goingthrough doing research for this,
did you find that you had tototally exclude European films while
writing or was it a matter ofI have to watch these just so I can
define the American side ofthis but not fixate on the other
half?
Yeah, I mean, it's one ofthose things where there are witch
like figures in almost everyculture on Earth and They all look
(18:16):
different and do differentthings. So I always like to highlight
the fact that witches areunique in the pantheon of horror
movie monsters because a, theyare the only predominantly feminine
horror monster. Like, when youthink about witches, you're usually
thinking about women, whichoften comes with, like, this bioessentialist
thing going on. Because it's amedieval archetype. Right. So that's
(18:39):
a whole can of worms. But atthe same time, it's also an archetype
based in a real history offemicide. And so when you look at
different cultures, you know,East Asian witches have a more ghost
like history. They're also alittle bit more vampiric. Eastern
European witches have a veryvampiric quality. So if you think
about movies like Valerie andher Week of Wonders, that's a witch
(19:00):
movie, also a vampire movie.You know, like, you've got the. The
Latin American witch, whichhas a completely different valence
than the, you know, European.The even Western European witch.
Right. So it's like, in orderto clarify these things, you have
to get your cultural contextin order. I reference several movies.
(19:21):
I cheat a little bit andreference a couple movies from Europe
and one movie from Japan thatI just absolutely adore. The reason
I do those things when I dothem is if they had some importance
in the United States. Right.It's a, you know, it's a cultural
history, and cinema is aglobal art form. So I also talk about
(19:41):
Black Sunday, the. The Baba film.
Yeah, that movie, my personal favorite.
That's so good. But that moviewas based on a Russian short story
shot in Italy, dubbed inEnglish and starred by actors from
various countries, thenimported here by aip. Right. So the
international quality of thesemovies is important. Right. Like,
(20:03):
Don't look now, which isanother favorite. Which movie of
mine is American Actors in aBritish Film? You know, there was
an Australian contingent, butthe reason I really focused in on
America was because I am ascholar of American history. And
I think there's something veryparticular with our nation's history
of American witchcraft. Right.Like, you can bring it back to the
(20:26):
Salem witch trials and the waythat American feminists in particular
have deployed this archetypeas a symbol of feminist resistance.
So that history is both globalin that it happens everywhere and
specific in that its impactsand the shapes and forms it takes
vary. So I focus on Americabecause it's what I know. I'm passionate
(20:49):
about it. And I think thisbook for me was a little bit of a
form of therapy. A little bit.It was like, how did we get to this
fucked up place we're in. Why.Why are the politics the way they
are? And what can the mediathat we make that presents us with
our unconscious fearsilluminate about that history?
I think that's what I think.Like that last point is what was
(21:12):
so interesting to me about thebook when I was reading it is whenever
we look back on movie historyand we to look at, oh, what was society
going through at the time,blah, blah, blah, it's always in
very broad strokes, it'susually pop culture. And then a little
bit of, well, here's what's inthe zeitgeist, you know, here. Well,
Vietnam's happening, soobviously this influence.
You know, it's always thatMike wants more Iran Contra. He just
(21:34):
needs to know about it.
But what we don't really focuson is like getting into the nitty
gritty. Like, because America,even more so than other countries,
really utilizes its media, itsmovies specifically, even from early
on, as propaganda to try tosway public consciousness. And no
one truly examines thecontingent of movies that do exist,
(21:58):
particularly from olderperiods, but even to modern day,
that are made by people whoare trying to reverse course on things
negatively and occasionally,possibly, but more often than not
just negatively, particularlyfrom big studios or things that get
big release, you start feelingthe American complex infect movies
(22:21):
starting at a certain point.And I've never really seen it viewed
through specifically the witchfilm. And how kind of hard of a turn
every time it felt like, oh,no, we don't like that there's progress
in any direction. Let's use awitch movie to try to get our point
across about what we thinkreality should be.
(22:43):
That was like a canary in thecoal mine. Like, oh, are things getting
too progressive? Check and seeif there's a witch movie out.
Yeah, totally. Exactly. It'sso, yeah, it's one of those things
where that, that fascinates metoo, right. Because it's not, it's
not just conscious, right.Where you have. I always come back
to Reagan because he was sodeliciously unsubtle with his, his
movie nonsense, right. But he,he watches War Games and that shapes
(23:06):
his, his like, you know,global policy. And then he starts,
he calls this thing Star wars,right? You have these, these figures
who watch media and thatinforms them and vice versa. But
I also tried to highlight, inperiods of transition, movies that
weren't very successful butthat were hyper commercial, like
(23:28):
exploitation movies, I thinkcan tell you more about what's going
on in the culture and thananything else because what those
people do is they identify atrend and then they make the movie
without doing any research orthought based on what they think
people want to see.
And that no sociologist hashis finger on the pulse of America
(23:48):
like Roger Corman did.
Dude, Roger Corman was greatat it. He was brilliant at doing
it. And he pushed the needleright. With his. His psychedelic
horror cycle. Like, that wastremendous and a reflection on what
was going on with Tim Learyand with Nixon's burgeoning war on
drugs. And he was also justlike a king for doing all of it.
But. But those were overtlypolitical movies. And you know, am
(24:13):
I saying that afraid from lastyear or this year or whenever the
hell that was is a good film?No, but am I saying you could probably
look at that movie and unpacka little bit of what's going on right
now with our concerns around?I. Absolutely. You know.
Yeah.
One thing I've noticed that'sbeen on my mind since reading the
early chapters of your book iswhile this happens all around the
(24:36):
world with their media cycles,it feels that America is the most
hardcore about using genre tolaunder ideas into greater society.
Like first with pulp novelsbecoming movies that then go on to
be influential, and now withthis, the genre movies themselves
(24:58):
going on to influence people.Like, and you get things like William
Peter Blatty and Ira11accidentally triggering the satanic
panic because of their novels.
Yeah.
It just, it feels like again,every country does this, but America
makes it their bread and butter.
Yeah. And the 60s and 7, likethe. The mid-70s transitioning into
(25:20):
the 80s are such an excellentcase study for this. Right. Because
if you want like a formula forhow these kinds of panics emerge,
it's like, you know, resurgentsocial justice movements meets a
renewed wave of evangelicalChristianity equals big conservative
backlash, equals paranoia. Andthen you get things like the satanic
(25:43):
panic or QAnon, you know, and.And it just happens over and over
again. I think part of it isbecause we're such a diverse and
polyglot enormous nation ofimmigrants that it leads to this.
This mixing that our massmedia is kind of a reflection of.
It's a release valve for a lotof the tensions we have. And because
(26:06):
Hollywood is such a hegemonicforce. Right. It's going to be more
prominent here than in like asmaller country like, you know, England,
where they're. They'reinteresting because they're like
less subtle with it. Right.Where the video nasties scare is
just a much more overt anddirect and legal way of doing the
(26:26):
same thing we did in the USwhere evangelical pastors were burning
copies of the Exorcist andgoing on their TV channels to be
like, this is porn. You know?So it's a combo of how diverse we
are and our free speechprotections and the history of our
cinema means we have the spaceto. To explore these fears in a.
In a different way. I'd saythis is all spitballing, but that's
(26:50):
what. That's what that made me think.
It was all confident enough tomake me believe I'd put it down on
paper. Oh, nuts. I was makingthat joke and I forgot the comment
I had. This is what I get fortrying to make jokes. No, I think
I was going to rewind a littlebit to America as a backdrop for
these stories, just because itfeels to me like there is a trope
in a lot of horror witch filmswhere they're bifurcated in timeline.
(27:10):
Like they always have aprologue setback in the Salem witch
trials or some sort offictional approximation of it.
Yes.
And it really feels likethey're setting up the idea of this
is America's original sin. Andthen we jump forward into the present
day where that evil has beenunleashed. Or maybe not even evil,
depending on how the movie isset up. This could be like a righteous
vengeance or maybe a vengeanceout of control. There's always.
(27:34):
And it's so fun. Like, that'spart of what makes these movies cathartic.
Right. Is like, you know, eventhe really terrible ones, like, there's
some really bad 80s witchmovies that use that trope, but it's
super cathartic because it's.These movies often center women.
They present you with theimage of women being, you know, murdered
(27:54):
for the crime of being toohot. And then the woman in the present.
Oh, yeah. There's a moviecalled the Devonsville Terror that
I absolutely love on this.It's got a very checked out Donald
Pleasence in it.
It's Donald Pleasance.
Yeah. But it's a really coolone for that.
(28:14):
It's.
It's very explicitly feminist.It kind of falls off at the end.
But. But yeah, in terms ofthat presenting, foregrounding the
history of violence againstwomen and then drawing that through
to the present in the diegesisof the film, where it's like they
start a new witch trial, like,witch hunt against these women who
are single and have jobs.
How dare they?
(28:34):
Yeah, so. So, yeah, it's. It'scool. Not all of them do it, but
they definitely center thathistory in one way. Or another. And
then you have other counterexamples where it's like that history
is presented as more fearfulthan tragic, and that. That also
says a lot about the film'sperspective and the fears we're exploring.
Well, it's very interestinghow American media tackles that history
(28:59):
because it almost feels like acase of stolen valor at a certain
point, because as horrific asthe Salem witch Trials are, they
do pale in comparison to whathappened in Europe in the 1600s.
And America seems to have thisweird love hate relationship. But
the fact that that happenedover here too, like, we acknowledge
(29:21):
it as terrible, and obviouslythat's. That really speaks to the
heart of what's wrong withAmerica and our puritanical roots.
But at the same time, isn't itkind of wicked that the Salem witch
trials happened? Kind of likean identity crisis we have as a country?
Yeah, totally. It's. I mean,we're such a comparatively young
nation that I think we justtake our. The specifics of our early
(29:44):
history incredibly seriouslyin a. In a pretty distinct way.
Right.
And this is, like, built intothe fabric. It's a counterpoint to
the. One of the. Manycounterpoints to the kind of elementary
school narrative around, like,the Puritans, and they came in and
they rocked and they killedall the Native Americans and their
wives because they didn't likethem anymore, you know, so. So it's
(30:06):
just one of those, you.
Know, the first Thanksgiving.
Yeah.
And that was the blood. Yeah.
All right, now everyone drawyour hand turkeys.
So.
Oh, sorry, go ahead.
No, you mentioned earlierabout there being a lot of bad 80s
witch movies in particular,and I was curious about that bit
because you're right, witchesdidn't go away in Cinema in the 80s,
(30:29):
but I'd be hard pressed tothink of a single iconic witch from
that decade. I'm curious ifyou have any perspective on why that
would be, because it's notlike those social issues weren't
at the forefront during that decade.
Yeah. That chapter, that partof the book was probably the most
complex to write because it.It centers around a paradox, which
(30:51):
is if the Satanic panic ispositing that in America, one of
the major central problems iswitchcraft, then why are there no
witches in the movies? Wheredid they go? What. What does that
say?
Into warlocks at the time, forsome reason.
I just wrote a paper aboutthat, actually. Yeah. And I said
(31:12):
that was because of the AIDScrisis, you know, so. Preview of.
Of coming papers, I guess.But. But yeah, like the. The response.
My. The thing I was talkingabout there is like, the way backlash
operates is to diffuse thepower of the symbol by presenting
it as cliched and tired. And,you know, like, feminists are. Are
(31:33):
not fun, and they're not sexy,and they're frumpy, grumpy women
who, you know, don't want to,like, have a home life or a sex life.
And witches are scary and sexyand hot, so you need to kind of downplay
that in order to make thatwork. Whereas warlocks are. Are the
opposite. You know, they. Theycome to the fore for a kind of inverse
(31:54):
reason where, you know, youcan talk about, like, the celluloid
closet, right, where you'vegot this preponderance of comic buffoon
homophobic stereotypes andhorny, evil homophobic stereotypes
that. That come together inthe warlock to present, like, this
danger to our young boys,Anita Bryant style. But. But if you
look slightly outside of theframe of horror proper, you will
(32:18):
see several iconic witches inthe 80s, specifically Elvira, Queen
of my life, in Elvira,Mistress of the Dark, who is a really
great ambassador for, like,you know, sex, positivity, and counterculturalism
in a decade bereft of both,because she's not scary, she's fun,
she's reassuring to anaudience that even your friendly
(32:41):
neighborhood goth is friendlyand comes in peace. And then on the
other side, you have thewitches of Eastwick, which. I love
that movie. That movie isdeeply conservative, and nobody likes
to talk about it because it'sgot the three coolest women of all
time and Jack Nicholson, andit's really fun, but it's very conservative,
and it's based on an even moreconservative novel written to explicitly
(33:04):
denigrate sexual liberationand tell women to go home.
So, you know, again, anotherpiece of context about that book
that was just lost by history.Yeah, I know. Sometimes books and
movies are made for reasons.
Dude, no. I read a piece whenI was writing this book that called
the novel the Witches ofEastwick. Something delicious. It
was like the ultimatemisogynist screed of its era. And
(33:27):
I'm like, okay, I wouldn't gothat far, but it is really bad.
So I'm sorry. I adore JackNicholson, but the moment he walks
onto set, your movie hasbecome sexist. It's the law of the
universe.
They were like, oh, yeah, theguy from the Shining will be perfect.
Actually, you mentionedElvira. I'm curious. Have you ever
seen the pilot to the unmadeElvira sitcom from the 80s?
(33:51):
Oh, my God, no.
Oh, my God. You can find it onYouTube right now. It's fascinating.
It was made like 88, I think.And it's just Sabrina the Teenage
Witch with Elvira completewith a talking cat. But years before
Sabrina the Teenage Witch.
That would have been better.Sabrina. I'm trying to remember that
actress's name. She disavowedthe show because she's an evangelical.
(34:15):
Oh, Melissa Joan Hart.
Yeah.
Yeah. She makes pure flicksmovies now.
Yeah. Elvira would never.Because Andrew Peterson would simply
not do that. She's great. I'llhave to check that out.
So when you were writing thebook, how did you navigate kind of
the blurry thresholds betweenlike the folk horror sub genre and
which specific films or didyou not really have to worry about
(34:35):
that since America doesn'tnecessarily make as many folk horror
film?
Yeah, it gets complicatedwhere I feel like. And hopefully
when people read this book,they'll share my curse. Right. But
it's like once you startthinking about this, you will never
stop seeing witch movies.They're everywhere all the time.
It's just a thing. And socreating those delineations can be
(34:58):
challenging becausesupernaturalism is just an American
hobby. But there I watchedover. I think I watched like somewhere
in the neighborhood of 300films for this book. And every one
of those films had a witchcharacter, like an explicitly witch
character. So I tried to keepit really within that realm right
(35:20):
there. I mean, there are somewhere you could argue that it's not
witches per se. Right. Likesomeone told me that they didn't
think that Midsommar countedwhen that's a neo pagan community.
That to me is. It's explicitlypracticing witchcraft. Right. So
yeah, that's witches byanother name. But beyond that, there
really aren't any otherexamples like that in the book. And
(35:40):
so, yeah, I mean, if you wentoutside the realm of there is a witch
in the film, then you would bewatching like a good 30% of American
horror films.
I mean, even if there is justa witch in the film, I feel like
there's probably a lot of edgecases in there. I mean, if you really
wanted to be a stick in themud, you could make a case that the
Blair Witch Project, since itdoesn't explicitly show a witch,
(36:01):
couldn't be considered. Thisis devil's advocating here. I don't
know if I would make thatargument myself, but I could see
someone making it who'spedantic like myself.
Well, I actually didn't writeabout. I had a section on the Blair
Witch Project and then I cutit because it wasn't. It didn't feel
necessary. Which might soundodd given its tremendous popularity
and impact. Right. Althoughit's interesting because that movie
(36:25):
itself doesn't abide by any ofthe tropes, but they had a tie in
TV special as one of their gimmicks.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that movie. Yeah, it's sogood. And it touches on basically
the entirety of the metahistory around witchcraft in America.
Right. Where it's got the. Oneof the talking heads is like a hippie
(36:46):
dude who's talking about,like, you know, witch chicks in the
whatever. So it's just kind ofacknowledges that history in its
broader landscape in a waythat I think really proves a lot
of my thesis. I watched thatand I was like, I knew it. But that
didn't make the book either,because there was nothing to say
beyond, look, it's what Ialready said.
(37:07):
Yeah, that's got to be thehard part. There's, you know, thousands
of movies out there. You can'tinclude them all. Even if they are
popular or one of yourpersonal favorites. It won't necessarily
fit with everything else. Yougot to streamline parts of it.
So I will bring up one thingabout Blair Witch Project, the film
proper. And arguably you couldsay that outside of Curse of the
Blair Witch, there isn'treally much quote unquote mythology
(37:29):
that's in the film proper. Andas that universe got expanded, witch
is just the term that's usedfor the entity that's there, that
it kind of latched on to theAmericanized concept of a witch and
the fears the town had onsomeone who they accused being a
witch. But the interestingthing is, outside of that, the Blair
(37:51):
Witch was inspired by another,an actual quote unquote Marilyn witch
named Maldire, who I currentlylive near the Maldire Rock, which
is the rock she was supposedlyexecuted on. But here's the interesting
thing. Maldire may not haveactually existed and essentially
been a witch movie conjuringby the people of Maryland at the
(38:15):
time to essentially spreadwhat is a witch legend that's demonizes
women and demonizes. Like, Ithink she was supposed to have come
over from a ship, like, soshe's a little bit of an. Of an Other
that immigrated here and likeall this stuff. And it's possible
maybe she was partiallyinspired by someone in a really Greek
(38:37):
mythology sort of way, someonewho was walking around. But for the
most part, it's likely mostthings about her completely made
up at the time to essentiallyspread this story to create fear.
So a Hansel and Gretel kind ofThing like, eh, here's a scary story.
Stay straight and narrow.
That's totally fascinating.
So as we're kind of runningshort on time, let's just do one
(38:57):
more question to kind of wrapthings up here. As you were going
through doing all of yourresearch, what are some of the witch
films you think would bereally helpful for people to watch
maybe before reading the bookor some you feel are maybe just underseen
and folks really need to givea shot?
Totally. I'm actuallyprogramming a series of witch films
in the summer in New York withthat premise. But underseen movies
(39:22):
that I'm really excited forpeople to dig into after reading
this book. One of them isHerschel Gordon Lewis's Something
weird. It's a 1967exploitation film that, you know,
if you're, if you're a cultmovie head, I think you will love
this movie. It's. It's totallybananas. It has to be seen to be
believed. It involves like,LSD and karate and there's an invisible
(39:44):
sheep ghost that gets foughtit slaps. Would recommend. But in
terms of like, actualimpactful and meaningfully good movies,
I would say above and beyond,I would absolutely recommend everyone
check out George Romero'sSeason of the Witch. It's so amazing.
As both a feminist film and asjust like an underseen gem from his
(40:05):
filmography, he was respondingto women's liberation and the like,
the occult revival of thesixties in the same way that Stephen
King was with Carrie. Andit's. Yeah, it's a really cool text.
Beyond that, I think there aredefinitely films in here that if
you haven't already seen them,like, you should like people who
haven't seen practical magic,go watch practical magic and cry
(40:27):
and eat popcorn. But yeah, Ifeel like once you start watching
witch movies, they stay withyou forever. There's something very
cathartic about this sub genrebecause usually it's women kicking
ass and getting revenge. Andwho doesn't like that?
I don't have anything betterto say. That's a great way to tag
the show. That should havebeen like a subtitle on the book.
Mike, steal that for the titleof the podcast. The description.
(40:49):
Good work. All right, well, Ithink we've taken enough time for
today. Thank you so much forjoining us. For the audience at home,
where is the best spot forthem to purchase the book?
You can pick it up whereverbooks are sold. It's available for
pre order on Barnes and Nobleright now. You can follow me on Instagram
and I post updates there. Soyeah, it'll probably be at your local
(41:10):
bookstore. I'm excited.
Awesome. Thank you so mucheveryone at home. If you do not buy
at least one copy of that veryFear of Feminism and the American
Witch film, we're not friendsanymore. It's that serious. So go
out, get your pre orders in.Let us know what you think of it
once you get a chance to checkthis out. I'm a huge fan. I can't
wait to read the rest.
Of it and stay friends with Cody.
That's it. The only cudgel Ihave to wave at, folks. All right,
(41:33):
well, I think that's going todo it for us. Thank you again so
much for joining us. We'llhave to get you back sometime for
like a commentary on likewitching and bitching or something.
Totally. This is a blast.Thank you.
All right, folks, thank youfor joining us. You can find more
Box Office Pulp wherever weget your podcasts. We're on Spotify,
itunes. Does itunes existanymore? I'm just saying that we're
out there. Just look up BoxOffice Pulp. Anyways, thanks for
listening. That's a wrap.
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