May 29, 2025 • 27 mins
Eduardo Gomes is an Associate Professor of Political Science at Fluminense Federal University, in Niterói, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. He hold a Ph. D. in Political Science from the University of Chicago, with a dissertation on a failed project of turning Brazil into an exporter of manufactured products before the neoliberal reforms. He has been a Visiting Professor in a couple of colleges in the United States, including as a Fulbright Scholar in Residence. He was awarded the “Amos Chair of Eminent Professor of Latin American Studies” at Columbus University, Georgia. His fields of interests are Interest Politics, Political Economy, and Comparative Politics. He has conducted research on business politics, small business, corporate social responsibility, and comparative political economy of development, having published a number of articles and book chapters on these topics in Brazil and abroad. Currently, he is working on state capacities of emergent countries, focusing on advising councils and new arenas of public-private negotiations of the BRICS, as well as on tripartism in Latin America.
Brazil is going through challenging times. There’s never been a more important moment to understand Brazil’s politics, society, and culture. To go beyond the headlines, and to ask questions that aren’t easy to answer. 'Brazil Unfiltered,' does just that. This podcast is hosted by James N. Green, Professor of Brazilian History and Culture at Brown University and the National Co-Coordinator of the U.S. Network for Democracy in Brazil.
Brazil Unfiltered is part of the Democracy Observatory, supported by the Washington Brazil Office. This podcast is edited and produced by Camilo Rocha in São Paulo.
https://www.braziloffice.org/en/observatory#activities
Brazil is going through challenging times. There’s never been a more important moment to understand Brazil’s politics, society, and culture. To go beyond the headlines, and to ask questions that aren’t easy to answer. 'Brazil Unfiltered,' does just that. This podcast is hosted by James N. Green, Professor of Brazilian History and Culture at Brown University and the National Co-Coordinator of the U.S. Network for Democracy in Brazil.
Brazil Unfiltered is part of the Democracy Observatory, supported by the Washington Brazil Office. This podcast is edited and produced by Camilo Rocha in São Paulo.
https://www.braziloffice.org/en/observatory#activities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi. I'm James Neila Green, Professor emeritus of Brazilian History
and Culture at Brown University and the national co coordinator
of the US Network for Democracy in Brazil. This program
is supported by the Washington Brazil Office. This is Brazil
and Filtered Today. We're going to talk about bricks that
involve the countries of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa,
(00:25):
and more recently a set of new countries Egypt, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia,
Iran and the United Arab Emirates that have joined this
international association and to talk about this topic, our guest
today is Eduardo Gomez. Eduardogomes is an in professor of
political science at the Fluminacia Federal University in nitoroy Hero, Brazil.
(00:47):
He holds a PhD in political science from the University
of Chicago, with a dissertation on a failed project of
turning Brazil into an exporter of manufactured products before the
neoliberal reforms. He has conducted research on business politics, small business,
corporate social responsibility, and comparative political economy of development. Currently,
(01:07):
he is working on state capacities of emerging countries, focusing
on advising councils and new readers of public private negotiations
of the Bricks, as well as on tripartisan agreements in
Latin America. Eduard the welcome to Brazil unfiltered.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Thank you, thanks very much. Jim, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Let's go then, So let's start with giving our listeners
a bit of background about what bricks was, how it
came together.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Okay, that's fine. The five founding countries were developed in nine,
two thousand and nine, but before that there was various
various unfoldings that brought UH to begin with a group
(02:05):
of Russia and China developing countries that were grew from
the financial crisis of two thousand and eight. Shortly after
various developments of the various political UH managers, there was
(02:30):
this idea that Brazils should join the bricks. The three
first countries Russia, Indian, China should join the bricks. So
the beginning of BRICKS was made of four countries, and
later on South Africa was also included in the group.
(02:50):
And those are the practically the founding bricks. So it's
it's an over an outcome of the twenty the two
thousand and eight financial crisis of these developing countries.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So I'm a little confused or people are confused because
I understand bricks also having been a title, a a term,
a terminology used to describe these as five countries as
emerging countries, developed by Goldman Sachs to identify countries that
were emerging in the economy and therefore had a different
(03:31):
role than the developed countries. Let's say between most of
the undeveloped countries using this terminology and the development. So
how has it changed or is that Can we understand
bricks along the lines of this terminology presented by Goldman
Sachs or is it something else? What are its goals?
What does it tend to do?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Okay, the bricks was the idea of brick. In fact,
brick without an ess was developed by an economist, Jim
oil but later on an idea of putting together very
important and interesting developing, large developing countries with a large economy,
(04:19):
large population. And those are the five the first five ones. Uh,
the first five ones, So that's the idea actually off
the brick, So Jim Nilbe had a role, but by
and large the countries themselves made different steps since the beginning.
(04:41):
So the first one, the founding. Uh. The found the
founding arrangement of the grips the bricks was in two
thousand and nine in the Russian city of ektariin Burg
and the in Europe. So just just that the Brazilian
(05:03):
brick was an invitation of the there the three ones
to join the bricks to make a new group of
emerging countries with those aspects economic population in large countries.
And uh, that's how they've began. And since then we
had we we began we began to have uh yearly
(05:30):
meetings in each year throughout today. So uh the meeting
was held since two thousand and nine each year.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So Trump recently threatened heavy tariffs on the brick countries.
What has spent the US behavior towards this block before
and now with Trump?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Okay, so uh very in February Trump not only uh
said that they would like to throw tariffs of one
hundred percent for the bricks countries, and there shant ices
on the all the bricks countries. And also he concluded
(06:19):
in February thirteenth that bricks were dead. That's clearly his
his sentence, bricks is dead, was dead. But it's not
the case. Bricks pro UH, it's established his it's home here.
The meetings on the on the on the bricks. They
(06:45):
provided the meeting UH which will take place July next
next July on the sixth and seven here in Real
de General. So bricks was not dead at all. Seem
like Trump thought the bricks could be would obey his
(07:05):
idea that they were dead.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And but why is why is Trump so threatened by bricks?
Why is it making why is he making these these
claims that it's a dangerous institution that he needs to
to stop. I think, UH, as I understand it, it
was around the possibility of the bricks offering an alternative
currency to the dollar, which is the international exchange currency. Basically,
(07:32):
do you do you know why or do you understand
why Trump is so threatened by by bricks.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
That's a very clear case. I mean he was also
threatened by the what do we call digularization of the
business of the bricks with themselves, with other countries and
so on so forth. So he was really threatened and
(07:59):
that there has been now a new new waves of
UH trade of the bricks. UH diduarization of the trade
in part, and he had to realize that was something
that he would he would be he would live with
(08:24):
with this new new trend of the trade wars worldwide.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So is it a concern that there will be a
new trade block that will basically trade among the same
countries without involving the United States, which is which is
what is threatening Trump?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, so far those countries have very very some may
have some trade with the US, but UH, and they
these are those countries, those these trades.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The is not.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Based on the dollar, but there is this STrenD UH
in various countries in various various directions now relying on
the dollar, I mean relying on relying on the this
this organization.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
So what is what is the relationship between Brazil and
China UH in this new situation with Trump. Trump is
putting up tariffs and it seems as that Brazil is
looking more to tell more of their soil and their
other agricultural goods to China as opposed to selling them
(09:41):
UH to the United States or to UH. China is
receiving more goods from Brazil than potentially from the United States.
What's what's going on there between the two countries?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Okay? UH? The the easy, the the easy way of
understanding this or just look, just look just looking at
the last visit of the Brazilian president Lula to China.
I mean he went to China a couple of weeks
(10:14):
ago to China after he had been to Russia. But
immediately he spent a few days in China and us
very very very successful meeting with one hundred or something
entrepreneurs brazil entrepreneurs. This in China, so new new avenues
(10:36):
were open and especially some manufacturing industry, true new auto
industries to be established in Brazil. Brazil is also she
has alread received a manufacturing industry of electric cars. It's
(10:57):
the very first time in Brazil we have electric cards.
So it has been a very successful meeting with China.
And actually uh, Lula uh understood the relation of Brazil
with China as a is is a relationship which should
(11:21):
not be broken at achnic quest for the from from
this time on. So that's a very important step that
China and Brazil arranged.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So what are China's made economic interests in Brazil?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Okay? Uh? Actually Uh, it was very recent that China invested,
I mean proclaimed but arranged the idea of having heavy
investment in Brazil. This came out of Brazil had had
some types of Chinese investments, especially in the area of energy,
(12:08):
but today it spread out many many feuds of industries.
I told you manufacturer, car industry and other ones. But
basically Brazil has not joined the silk industry. I don't
know why, sink, no one knows. But uh. After this visit,
(12:29):
the China and Brazil built and various various agreements of
the infrastructure, and it was one of them. Is very
very important because it's a railroad from the east to
(12:49):
the west in Brazil reaching the Peruvian harbor recently established
in Peru. So it will be a five thousand kilometers
and so on, so farth from the east side of
Brazil to the west side of Latin America. But it's
a very very important. Brazil is very has not many railroads,
(13:13):
but this will be very important in the country and
will also unfolds in many areas of the country. So
this is niqut so I.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
In Brazil for five hundred years has had an economic
model of export, primarily of agricultural goods.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
There was a.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Period in the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies when manufacturing was
prioritized and there was a significant export of Brazilian manufactured products.
But it seems like what you're describing is Brazil returning
to the model of depending on agriculture and livestock exports
(13:53):
to be the backbone of the economy. Does this not
merely reinforce these observient role that Brazil has with the
rest of the world's economy.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, I think you're talking about agribusiness in Brazil. I
mean recent business and even it's a very very it's
it's very it remains it reminds us of the previous
agri exporting economy, but it's very very efficient in modern
(14:27):
economy in the countryside. So Brazil is really almost turning
back to the agriculture, but it's not the same old
export agriculture in sector. So Brazil is a is a
major exporter of soltbeans, also meat and other with with
(14:50):
very well, very modern agribusiness. So but it we are
looking for also re enactment the manufacturing in the country
as well.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
The United States has traditionally been very close to Brazil
in terms of trade and economic agreements. Over the years,
the increased trade with China is building that connection between
the two countries. What do you think is going to
be the impact on Brazil's relations with the United States.
Will they lose the closeness that they had or will
(15:29):
there be a continuation of the relations between the two countries.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I think it will diminish the importance of the US
for the Brazilian economies. I think Brazil after these two
visits to China and Russia, in fact, Russia and China,
Brazil expanded very much or enlarged very much his its
(15:56):
economy and attracting many business man when from both countries
China and Brazil, and we expect a very new standard
(16:16):
in the Brazilian economy to that point.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So you're predicting that the relations economic relations will be
stronger with Russia and China and the other countries and
much less connected to the United States over the next period.
So what about the visit of Lula to Russia that.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
This is true to Russia from Lula was basically an
encounter of trying to renew a very small trade which
is very very small. It's like uh twelve thousand plus
(16:56):
thousand medion dollars, whereas to China is about nineteen nineteen billion.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
So just there's a much less amount of money that's
being traded with Russia. So so the question I really
have about bricks is that is it an economic agreement
or is it a political agreement? Is it designed to
just improve the trade between countries or is there another
(17:25):
larger goal in mind?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
With bricks, it's both both, not only these ones, but
other ones as well. Culture is also an important aspect
of the bricks, of the identity of the bricks countries,
and the other other issues as well. So it's political,
it's economics, social healthcare, those parts of common interest of
(17:51):
the bricks countries in various aspects, and not only neither
neither only political or economic, but many other ones. These ones. So,
Brazil went.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Through a dictatorship from nineteen sixty four to nineteen eighty five,
spent forty years or more since the end of the dictatorship,
and the country is still I think, strengthening its democracy.
What will be the effects of on Brazilian democracy the
close alignment that Brazil is making with China, with Russia,
(18:28):
which are not democratic countries, or even places like India
which have an authoritarian leadership, and not to speak of
the new countries that are coming to join the bricks.
How do we understand Brazil's commitment to democracy and its
desire to build alliance with countries which are not at
all democratic.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yes, there has been criticism of Brazil's relationships with the
radius various of these countries bricks countries, but I think
the only price is to insist in democracy in Brazil,
(19:11):
regardless of the other countries. So for instance, today the
Brazil and India are negotiating UH defense industries, airplanes. There's
U and other ones with India. So so there we
also need an entrepreneurial basis that can in Brazil can
(19:36):
like for sea and rely on our democratic constitutions. So
and there has been we had been the we have
had businessmen involved with the democracy and now businessmen are
(19:56):
just economic elites. They don't care about how democracy is
sustaining itself or not.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
So if if the people who are involved in trading
between Brazil and the United and China, for example, are
much more concerned about profit and getting the goods out there,
et cetera, what are the what are the guarantees?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Then that.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
The relationship, what are the what are the what is
the way that Brazil will be looking to these countries,
whether it's the Lula government or a subsequent government which
don't have the same democratic values that Brazil has.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
How do how does.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
One explain this to this relationship with countries that doesn't
have the kind of same shared views about what a
country as democracy should be.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
That's a very important question and the challenging question. So, Uh,
we have supposedly we have gone out of the ten
the uh dictatorship of Brazil, but I'm sure that the
democratic institutions have not are not there easily h easily
(21:13):
uh shared by the Brazilians people. There hasn't been real
after the dictatorship. They're not has There hasn't been an
institutional beauty of democratic values in Brazil. There hasn't in
(21:34):
rooted democratic values in Brazil.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
This So, do you think this is the way for
Brazil to go? Is to build a closer and build
bricks as the main international association of countries to encourage
Brazil's development, You think this is the right.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Way to go? I think so. I think that it
has proved it to be uh the way go. I
mean as far as what we are seeing today is
like an economic apparatus, very very interesting for the Brazilian
(22:16):
for the Brazilians from Brazil.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Do you have any other comments about about bricks and
what you think are important to share with our listeners
about this phenomenon, how it's gone, what it's all about.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yes, it's it's begun that bricks begun with five large
countries for five emergent countries, and today it's h We
are eternets who are seeing a very enlarged bricks with
(22:54):
many many countries that trying should be should yeah, trying
to join the bricks. Some red half of the bricks
now has permanent members and various other ones trying to
join the bricks as well. So it's approximately i would
(23:16):
say thirty thirty thirty countries trying to join the bricks,
and we're want to see this in the next in
the next meeting month and a half, next next month
and a half.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So some analysts have argued that because when bricks were
small there were only four countries and then South Africa
five countries, Brazil had a strong role, a strong presence.
It was the only truly democratic country in a lot
of ways, I think you could say Indian and South
Africa are semi democratic. Is not the growth of bricks
(23:58):
from now ten countries of fight actually in the bricks
and potentially another ten. More so it might be a
block of thirty will that diminished the power and the
importance in the influence of Brazil within the organization or not.
What do you think about that we need to.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Much diminish the importance of anyone. I think the egypt
Edged became a member full member of the bricks countries
that bricks also we haven't talked about this. Also, Vieilt
institutionalized that Development Bank in Brazil since twenty fourteen, and
(24:37):
it has enlarged the resources for the various countries. We
don't have to be part of the bricks to be
part of the new development bank.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And president, former President Jima Musefie is the president of
the Development Bank.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Correct, yes, yes, it's she was invited to be a
she's she's covering the Russia, the Russian time of the
bricks counters because Putting invited her to replace the Russian,
the Russian employee whatever.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
And so so she she has been given an additional term.
I believe, I think her term has been that's right,
you will have a continued influence on this. So what
would be your final message to uh the listener of
Brazil and Filtered about the Bricks and what it's all about,
and is it a good thing, is it a bad thing?
Is it good for Brazil? Is it bad for Brazil?
(25:37):
Is it good for the United States? Bad for the
United States? What is your assessment?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
It's very good, very very good arrangement that the Bricks
Counters made, very very good. I mean, and uh, you're
going to see more of this with the the the
meeting a few a few weeks from to the we
will take place here in Real Dejane early July. So
(26:07):
this is a traditional meeting of the Bricks countries which
are held by the heads of state. They all come
to a place, a city. It's and we want to
see someone, so we don't Usually we don't get all
of them, but many of them will be here in
Real Jane, and there will be lots of side events,
(26:31):
include once by the Tihood also be part.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Of Actually I've been invited to come to to Real
for the side events as well, so we'll probably see
each other in Real.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, that's great, great, So.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Listen, Edward, I want to thank you so much for
being with us today on Brazil and Filtered. It was
really great to have you with us.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Thank you very much, Jim. It was nice seeing you
and talk to our friends in the US.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So to the listeners, I hope you enjoyed the interview.
If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the video,
and if you have not yet subscribed, please do so.
If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to your podcast, please leave us with a five
star review. It helps other people find the program.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Have a great week.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Until next time at Tepprossima.
Hi. I'm James Neila Green, Professor emeritus of Brazilian History
and Culture at Brown University and the national co coordinator
of the US Network for Democracy in Brazil. This program
is supported by the Washington Brazil Office. This is Brazil
and Filtered Today. We're going to talk about bricks that
involve the countries of Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa,
(00:25):
and more recently a set of new countries Egypt, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia,
Iran and the United Arab Emirates that have joined this
international association and to talk about this topic, our guest
today is Eduardo Gomez. Eduardogomes is an in professor of
political science at the Fluminacia Federal University in nitoroy Hero, Brazil.
(00:47):
He holds a PhD in political science from the University
of Chicago, with a dissertation on a failed project of
turning Brazil into an exporter of manufactured products before the
neoliberal reforms. He has conducted research on business politics, small business,
corporate social responsibility, and comparative political economy of development. Currently,
(01:07):
he is working on state capacities of emerging countries, focusing
on advising councils and new readers of public private negotiations
of the Bricks, as well as on tripartisan agreements in
Latin America. Eduard the welcome to Brazil unfiltered.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Thank you, thanks very much. Jim, I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Let's go then, So let's start with giving our listeners
a bit of background about what bricks was, how it
came together.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Okay, that's fine. The five founding countries were developed in nine,
two thousand and nine, but before that there was various
various unfoldings that brought UH to begin with a group
(02:05):
of Russia and China developing countries that were grew from
the financial crisis of two thousand and eight. Shortly after
various developments of the various political UH managers, there was
(02:30):
this idea that Brazils should join the bricks. The three
first countries Russia, Indian, China should join the bricks. So
the beginning of BRICKS was made of four countries, and
later on South Africa was also included in the group.
(02:50):
And those are the practically the founding bricks. So it's
it's an over an outcome of the twenty the two
thousand and eight financial crisis of these developing countries.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So I'm a little confused or people are confused because
I understand bricks also having been a title, a a term,
a terminology used to describe these as five countries as
emerging countries, developed by Goldman Sachs to identify countries that
were emerging in the economy and therefore had a different
(03:31):
role than the developed countries. Let's say between most of
the undeveloped countries using this terminology and the development. So
how has it changed or is that Can we understand
bricks along the lines of this terminology presented by Goldman
Sachs or is it something else? What are its goals?
What does it tend to do?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Okay, the bricks was the idea of brick. In fact,
brick without an ess was developed by an economist, Jim
oil but later on an idea of putting together very
important and interesting developing, large developing countries with a large economy,
(04:19):
large population. And those are the five the first five ones. Uh,
the first five ones, So that's the idea actually off
the brick, So Jim Nilbe had a role, but by
and large the countries themselves made different steps since the beginning.
(04:41):
So the first one, the founding. Uh. The found the
founding arrangement of the grips the bricks was in two
thousand and nine in the Russian city of ektariin Burg
and the in Europe. So just just that the Brazilian
(05:03):
brick was an invitation of the there the three ones
to join the bricks to make a new group of
emerging countries with those aspects economic population in large countries.
And uh, that's how they've began. And since then we
had we we began we began to have uh yearly
(05:30):
meetings in each year throughout today. So uh the meeting
was held since two thousand and nine each year.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So Trump recently threatened heavy tariffs on the brick countries.
What has spent the US behavior towards this block before
and now with Trump?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Okay, so uh very in February Trump not only uh
said that they would like to throw tariffs of one
hundred percent for the bricks countries, and there shant ices
on the all the bricks countries. And also he concluded
(06:19):
in February thirteenth that bricks were dead. That's clearly his
his sentence, bricks is dead, was dead. But it's not
the case. Bricks pro UH, it's established his it's home here.
The meetings on the on the on the bricks. They
(06:45):
provided the meeting UH which will take place July next
next July on the sixth and seven here in Real
de General. So bricks was not dead at all. Seem
like Trump thought the bricks could be would obey his
(07:05):
idea that they were dead.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And but why is why is Trump so threatened by bricks?
Why is it making why is he making these these
claims that it's a dangerous institution that he needs to
to stop. I think, UH, as I understand it, it
was around the possibility of the bricks offering an alternative
currency to the dollar, which is the international exchange currency. Basically,
(07:32):
do you do you know why or do you understand
why Trump is so threatened by by bricks.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
That's a very clear case. I mean he was also
threatened by the what do we call digularization of the
business of the bricks with themselves, with other countries and
so on so forth. So he was really threatened and
(07:59):
that there has been now a new new waves of
UH trade of the bricks. UH diduarization of the trade
in part, and he had to realize that was something
that he would he would be he would live with
(08:24):
with this new new trend of the trade wars worldwide.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
So is it a concern that there will be a
new trade block that will basically trade among the same
countries without involving the United States, which is which is
what is threatening Trump?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well, so far those countries have very very some may
have some trade with the US, but UH, and they
these are those countries, those these trades.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The is not.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Based on the dollar, but there is this STrenD UH
in various countries in various various directions now relying on
the dollar, I mean relying on relying on the this
this organization.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
So what is what is the relationship between Brazil and
China UH in this new situation with Trump. Trump is
putting up tariffs and it seems as that Brazil is
looking more to tell more of their soil and their
other agricultural goods to China as opposed to selling them
(09:41):
UH to the United States or to UH. China is
receiving more goods from Brazil than potentially from the United States.
What's what's going on there between the two countries?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Okay? UH? The the easy, the the easy way of
understanding this or just look, just look just looking at
the last visit of the Brazilian president Lula to China.
I mean he went to China a couple of weeks
(10:14):
ago to China after he had been to Russia. But
immediately he spent a few days in China and us
very very very successful meeting with one hundred or something
entrepreneurs brazil entrepreneurs. This in China, so new new avenues
(10:36):
were open and especially some manufacturing industry, true new auto
industries to be established in Brazil. Brazil is also she
has alread received a manufacturing industry of electric cars. It's
(10:57):
the very first time in Brazil we have electric cards.
So it has been a very successful meeting with China.
And actually uh, Lula uh understood the relation of Brazil
with China as a is is a relationship which should
(11:21):
not be broken at achnic quest for the from from
this time on. So that's a very important step that
China and Brazil arranged.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
So what are China's made economic interests in Brazil?
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Okay? Uh? Actually Uh, it was very recent that China invested,
I mean proclaimed but arranged the idea of having heavy
investment in Brazil. This came out of Brazil had had
some types of Chinese investments, especially in the area of energy,
(12:08):
but today it spread out many many feuds of industries.
I told you manufacturer, car industry and other ones. But
basically Brazil has not joined the silk industry. I don't
know why, sink, no one knows. But uh. After this visit,
(12:29):
the China and Brazil built and various various agreements of
the infrastructure, and it was one of them. Is very
very important because it's a railroad from the east to
(12:49):
the west in Brazil reaching the Peruvian harbor recently established
in Peru. So it will be a five thousand kilometers
and so on, so farth from the east side of
Brazil to the west side of Latin America. But it's
a very very important. Brazil is very has not many railroads,
(13:13):
but this will be very important in the country and
will also unfolds in many areas of the country. So
this is niqut so I.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
In Brazil for five hundred years has had an economic
model of export, primarily of agricultural goods.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
There was a.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Period in the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies when manufacturing was
prioritized and there was a significant export of Brazilian manufactured products.
But it seems like what you're describing is Brazil returning
to the model of depending on agriculture and livestock exports
(13:53):
to be the backbone of the economy. Does this not
merely reinforce these observient role that Brazil has with the
rest of the world's economy.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, I think you're talking about agribusiness in Brazil. I
mean recent business and even it's a very very it's
it's very it remains it reminds us of the previous
agri exporting economy, but it's very very efficient in modern
(14:27):
economy in the countryside. So Brazil is really almost turning
back to the agriculture, but it's not the same old
export agriculture in sector. So Brazil is a is a
major exporter of soltbeans, also meat and other with with
(14:50):
very well, very modern agribusiness. So but it we are
looking for also re enactment the manufacturing in the country
as well.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
The United States has traditionally been very close to Brazil
in terms of trade and economic agreements. Over the years,
the increased trade with China is building that connection between
the two countries. What do you think is going to
be the impact on Brazil's relations with the United States.
Will they lose the closeness that they had or will
(15:29):
there be a continuation of the relations between the two countries.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
I think it will diminish the importance of the US
for the Brazilian economies. I think Brazil after these two
visits to China and Russia, in fact, Russia and China,
Brazil expanded very much or enlarged very much his its
(15:56):
economy and attracting many business man when from both countries
China and Brazil, and we expect a very new standard
(16:16):
in the Brazilian economy to that point.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So you're predicting that the relations economic relations will be
stronger with Russia and China and the other countries and
much less connected to the United States over the next period.
So what about the visit of Lula to Russia that.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
This is true to Russia from Lula was basically an
encounter of trying to renew a very small trade which
is very very small. It's like uh twelve thousand plus
(16:56):
thousand medion dollars, whereas to China is about nineteen nineteen billion.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
So just there's a much less amount of money that's
being traded with Russia. So so the question I really
have about bricks is that is it an economic agreement
or is it a political agreement? Is it designed to
just improve the trade between countries or is there another
(17:25):
larger goal in mind?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
With bricks, it's both both, not only these ones, but
other ones as well. Culture is also an important aspect
of the bricks, of the identity of the bricks countries,
and the other other issues as well. So it's political,
it's economics, social healthcare, those parts of common interest of
(17:51):
the bricks countries in various aspects, and not only neither
neither only political or economic, but many other ones. These ones. So,
Brazil went.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Through a dictatorship from nineteen sixty four to nineteen eighty five,
spent forty years or more since the end of the dictatorship,
and the country is still I think, strengthening its democracy.
What will be the effects of on Brazilian democracy the
close alignment that Brazil is making with China, with Russia,
(18:28):
which are not democratic countries, or even places like India
which have an authoritarian leadership, and not to speak of
the new countries that are coming to join the bricks.
How do we understand Brazil's commitment to democracy and its
desire to build alliance with countries which are not at
all democratic.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yes, there has been criticism of Brazil's relationships with the
radius various of these countries bricks countries, but I think
the only price is to insist in democracy in Brazil,
(19:11):
regardless of the other countries. So for instance, today the
Brazil and India are negotiating UH defense industries, airplanes. There's
U and other ones with India. So so there we
also need an entrepreneurial basis that can in Brazil can
(19:36):
like for sea and rely on our democratic constitutions. So
and there has been we had been the we have
had businessmen involved with the democracy and now businessmen are
(19:56):
just economic elites. They don't care about how democracy is
sustaining itself or not.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
So if if the people who are involved in trading
between Brazil and the United and China, for example, are
much more concerned about profit and getting the goods out there,
et cetera, what are the what are the guarantees?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Then that.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
The relationship, what are the what are the what is
the way that Brazil will be looking to these countries,
whether it's the Lula government or a subsequent government which
don't have the same democratic values that Brazil has.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
How do how does.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
One explain this to this relationship with countries that doesn't
have the kind of same shared views about what a
country as democracy should be.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
That's a very important question and the challenging question. So, Uh,
we have supposedly we have gone out of the ten
the uh dictatorship of Brazil, but I'm sure that the
democratic institutions have not are not there easily h easily
(21:13):
uh shared by the Brazilians people. There hasn't been real
after the dictatorship. They're not has There hasn't been an
institutional beauty of democratic values in Brazil. There hasn't in
(21:34):
rooted democratic values in Brazil.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
This So, do you think this is the way for
Brazil to go? Is to build a closer and build
bricks as the main international association of countries to encourage
Brazil's development, You think this is the right.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Way to go? I think so. I think that it
has proved it to be uh the way go. I
mean as far as what we are seeing today is
like an economic apparatus, very very interesting for the Brazilian
(22:16):
for the Brazilians from Brazil.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Do you have any other comments about about bricks and
what you think are important to share with our listeners
about this phenomenon, how it's gone, what it's all about.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yes, it's it's begun that bricks begun with five large
countries for five emergent countries, and today it's h We
are eternets who are seeing a very enlarged bricks with
(22:54):
many many countries that trying should be should yeah, trying
to join the bricks. Some red half of the bricks
now has permanent members and various other ones trying to
join the bricks as well. So it's approximately i would
(23:16):
say thirty thirty thirty countries trying to join the bricks,
and we're want to see this in the next in
the next meeting month and a half, next next month
and a half.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
So some analysts have argued that because when bricks were
small there were only four countries and then South Africa
five countries, Brazil had a strong role, a strong presence.
It was the only truly democratic country in a lot
of ways, I think you could say Indian and South
Africa are semi democratic. Is not the growth of bricks
(23:58):
from now ten countries of fight actually in the bricks
and potentially another ten. More so it might be a
block of thirty will that diminished the power and the
importance in the influence of Brazil within the organization or not.
What do you think about that we need to.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Much diminish the importance of anyone. I think the egypt
Edged became a member full member of the bricks countries
that bricks also we haven't talked about this. Also, Vieilt
institutionalized that Development Bank in Brazil since twenty fourteen, and
(24:37):
it has enlarged the resources for the various countries. We
don't have to be part of the bricks to be
part of the new development bank.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
And president, former President Jima Musefie is the president of
the Development Bank.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Correct, yes, yes, it's she was invited to be a
she's she's covering the Russia, the Russian time of the
bricks counters because Putting invited her to replace the Russian,
the Russian employee whatever.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
And so so she she has been given an additional term.
I believe, I think her term has been that's right,
you will have a continued influence on this. So what
would be your final message to uh the listener of
Brazil and Filtered about the Bricks and what it's all about,
and is it a good thing, is it a bad thing?
Is it good for Brazil? Is it bad for Brazil?
(25:37):
Is it good for the United States? Bad for the
United States? What is your assessment?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
It's very good, very very good arrangement that the Bricks
Counters made, very very good. I mean, and uh, you're
going to see more of this with the the the
meeting a few a few weeks from to the we
will take place here in Real Dejane early July. So
(26:07):
this is a traditional meeting of the Bricks countries which
are held by the heads of state. They all come
to a place, a city. It's and we want to
see someone, so we don't Usually we don't get all
of them, but many of them will be here in
Real Jane, and there will be lots of side events,
(26:31):
include once by the Tihood also be part.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Of Actually I've been invited to come to to Real
for the side events as well, so we'll probably see
each other in Real.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Yeah, that's great, great, So.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Listen, Edward, I want to thank you so much for
being with us today on Brazil and Filtered. It was
really great to have you with us.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Thank you very much, Jim. It was nice seeing you
and talk to our friends in the US.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So to the listeners, I hope you enjoyed the interview.
If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the video,
and if you have not yet subscribed, please do so.
If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to your podcast, please leave us with a five
star review. It helps other people find the program.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Have a great week.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Until next time at Tepprossima.
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