September 3, 2024 • 39 mins
Isabel Figueiredo is an ecologist and coordinator of the Cerrado and Caatinga Program at the Institute of Society, Population and Nature (ISPN). With a Master's degree in Ecology from the University of Brasilia, she has worked for eighteen years on the conservation of the Cerrado with indigenous peoples and communities to promote sustainable uses of biodiversity. She coordinated the Small Grants Program in Brazil (PPP-ECOS) for 17 years, supporting community initiatives that generate socio-environmental benefits.
Brazil is going through challenging times. There’s never been a more important moment to understand Brazil’s politics, society, and culture. To go beyond the headlines, and to ask questions that aren’t easy to answer. 'Brazil Unfiltered,' does just that. This podcast is hosted by James N. Green, Professor of Brazilian History and Culture at Brown University and the National Co-Coordinator of the U.S. Network for Democracy in Brazil.
Brazil Unfiltered is part of the Democracy Observatory, supported by the Washington Brazil Office. This podcast is edited and produced by Camilo Rocha in São Paulo.
https://www.braziloffice.org/en/observatory#activities
Brazil is going through challenging times. There’s never been a more important moment to understand Brazil’s politics, society, and culture. To go beyond the headlines, and to ask questions that aren’t easy to answer. 'Brazil Unfiltered,' does just that. This podcast is hosted by James N. Green, Professor of Brazilian History and Culture at Brown University and the National Co-Coordinator of the U.S. Network for Democracy in Brazil.
Brazil Unfiltered is part of the Democracy Observatory, supported by the Washington Brazil Office. This podcast is edited and produced by Camilo Rocha in São Paulo.
https://www.braziloffice.org/en/observatory#activities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi. I'm James Nila Green, Professor Emeritus of Brazilian History
and Culture at Brown University and the national co coordinator
of the US Network for Democracy in Brazil. This program
is supported by the Washington Brazil Office and is being
taped while I am a fellow at the American Academy
in Berlin. This is Brazil and Filtered Today, I have
(00:23):
the pleasure of interviewing Isabel Figuerredu, who was an ecologist
and coordinator of the Sergradro i Katingo program at the
Institute of Society, Population in Nature. With a master's degree
in ecology from the University of Brazilia. She has worked
for eighteen years on the conservation of the Sergadu with
indigenous peoples and communities to promote sustainable use of biodiversity.
(00:45):
She's coordinated the Small Grants program in Brazil for seventeen years,
supporting community initiatives that generate socio environmental benefits. Isabelle Welcome
to Brazil and Filtered.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you James for having me. It's a pleasure to participate.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So first of all, for our members of our audience
who might not be familiar with these terms and Portuguese
let's define two terms. What is a sajadu and what
is a kachina.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The sahaving the katinger too biomes of Brazilian natural vegetation,
Brazilian natural ecosystems. They are very important for the whole
balance of Brazilian climate and biodiversity, but they are very
much unknown by general public. The sejadu is the savannah.
(01:36):
It's the most biodiverse savannah in the world. But when
I say savannah, you imagine only this kind of vegetation
that you can find.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
In Africa, the grasslands as they.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Call it grasslands. Yeah, but the Brazilian sehadu is a
gradient from grasslands in two forests and also having a
lot of differentfferent types of shrublands what we call clean
field and dirty field. So there are several types of
(02:09):
different vegetation that are over the like a mosaic in
the landscape. And this brings a very high biodiversity to
the sahaga. And the Kachinga is a dry forest. You
could see a semi arid region of Brazil with a
(02:29):
very specific biodiversity, also with species that are very well
adapted to drought. So they have developed a lot of
qualities to deal with the lack of water, and so
they are very resistant to drought, which could be very
interesting in this scenario of climate change. This knowledge that
(02:53):
this species cherry could be very interesting in the scenario
of tim and change. And also the Katchinga is the
home of a lot of indigenous peoples and local communities.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So if we can imagine a map of Brazil for
our audience, the big vast territory taking so much part
of South America, and the Amazon being at that core
in the center, and we're familiar with those maps of
the Amazon, where would the Serjado be in a relationship
to what we call the Amazon?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
The how do we actually is in the center of
Brazil in connection with the Amazon, which would take take
the northern part of the country, and in northeast would
be the Catchinga. The Hoa is about one fourth of
Brazilian territory and the Katchinga would be one fifth something
like that.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And the Amazon would be what percentage approximately.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I think one third of Brazilian territory, like thirty percent
something like this.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So if we were to describe it to someone and
I'm sure you did this a lot, what would be
happening in the Serhado. What are the geographical, social and
economic activities that are happening in this region of Brazil
which kind of surrounds like a belt around the Amazon
to a certain extent.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, what is going on in the Sahaba since the
late seventies is the massive clearing of the natural vegetation
to be replaced by monoculture production. During the seventies, there
(04:33):
was a lot of investments from international cooperation from the
Japanese agency Jaika to develop sort of a group of
technologies to be able to produce crops in the Sahaga.
Why is this important because the soil of the Sehado
(04:55):
is very very acid and in some parts of the
Sahada the structure of the soil would would not be
feasible for agriculture in large scale. But then there was
this massive investment to develop specific crop varieties to be
able to be produced in these conditions. And also all
(05:17):
the development of the agronomic package would be like a
package of technologies and techniques to to develop the potential
of the soil to produce large scale crops. And this
was very This was a big investment because the landscape
(05:39):
is very flat, so it would be possible possible to
be produced with with big machines and big tractors. So
since that time until now, there is a big investment
and a big effort by the agri business sector with
the support of the Brazilian golfment and also international investments
(06:02):
in replacing native vegetation of Sahagu too crops for exportations
such as cotton, maize and mainly soybeans, but also sugar,
cane and eucalyptus, and also of course pasture for for
cattle production. So the Sehadu, now we only have half
(06:26):
of the nature natural vegetation remaining. Half of it is
already gone. And you can see massive areas of soybeans
and now and and zero trees in in this big land.
So in this process what also happens is that the
(06:47):
local communities that that would live in this territory are
being are being pressured to leave their their territories and
uh and there are a lot of conflicts going on
in the Sahaba because of that.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
What are the products that are produced there? You mentioned
cotton and soy and the byproduct of grazing land for
cattle for beef production. What are the where these products
being exported to primarily is it to the United States,
Is it to Europe? Is it to chin China?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, most of it's to China, but also to the
United States and to the European Union.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So you mentioned the impact that this deforestation and the
transference of production to agricultural goods and grazing, and the
impact that that's had on the region. We in the
United States and people in Europe know a lot about
the environmental problems of the Amazon. Yeah, why should people
(07:51):
care about the Segrado? Can you give ourslicens some kind
of context about the challenges that this biome faces and
why it should be a concern for not only environmentalists
but other people concerned about global warming and the future
of the planet.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Actually, your footprint is much more in the Sahada than
in the Amazon, because most of the crops that these
countries are consuming are importing comes from the Sahada, not
from the Amazon. So the Sahada has very little protection
in comparison to the Amazon. First of all, because of
(08:27):
the Forest Code, our main legislation over protection of native vegetation,
defines that the Amazon must be in a private land.
In the Amazon, it must be until eighty percent of protection.
So if you're going to produce in a certain property
(08:49):
in the Amazon, you can only cut twenty percent of
the native vegetation for production. On the other hand, in
the Sahada, this personage goes from thirty five to twenty percent,
So only twenty percent of a certain private property must
(09:10):
be preserved as a legal reserve as we call. So
the problem is the legislature. We have a good legislation
even so, the protection of the Sehago it's much smaller
than in the Amazon, but still if it would be
very well applied, it could bring enough protection or at
(09:31):
least a minimum of protection. But to consider the connection
between fragments, you need to consider the water infiltration in
the soil and many others criteria, many other criteria that
could define that this property is in compliance to the legislation.
But there are many problems regarding land tenure and grabbing.
(09:56):
It's a massive problem in the Sejaga now and since ever.
So what we see is that the legislation is not
being well applied in addition to its short protection.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So how does the land grabbing work. You mentioned that
that's something that has been discussed by environmentalists about the
problem mostly talking about land grabbing in the Amazon again
and invading indigenous lands and bringing illegal lumbering and mining
into indigenous lands. How does the land grabbing work? How
(10:32):
does that that process take place?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Land grabbing is a process that has different types of
processes to be taken. So most of them are regarding
corruption in land register systems. So you can even change
the amount of land in certain register, you can attach
(10:56):
other lends in a certain register, or you can even
create a new register, a new title for a certain
land that you already know that it's a public land.
And because Brazil would too be the and the Brazilian
government is too slow. Until the government reaches this land,
(11:18):
the production is therefore for ten twenty years. So what
is going on is that during this process the communities
that you used to work and to live and to
the pain on this land are being displaced and being
(11:42):
and being isolated and being pressured over smaller and smaller land.
And this massive production over public land that is not
private land that is being taken that the public land
is being taken through the land gravit. And so most
(12:07):
of the production in the Sejado is not legal from
the point of view of land tenures. It's hard to
explain because it's a very complex process.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So at Brown University, about half a decade ago or so,
there was a conference on the environment and the Amazon
and Serja. I was very I learned a lot at
that conference. And at the time there had been a
discussion this is pre Bolsnardo, this is pre Tamor, in
which there had been a really increase in monitoring of deforestation.
(12:39):
It had radically decreased, and there were really good ways
that through geospatial monitoring one could determine what lands were
being illegally deforested and what lands were being appropriately used
for the agreed upon purpose of according to the thelaw.
(13:01):
What happens when you take and cut down trees and
the cercado to plant soybeans. What happens to the landscape?
What happens to the environment, What happens to the climate?
As a result of this large scale, uncontrolled agricultural production.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
The climate exactly over the land changes a lot. So
the temperature increases a lot. So when you have imasive
area of native vegetation being replaced by a crop, you
have certain you have like tree four or five months
of the year that you are not planting nothing because
(13:45):
of the drought, and then you have bear soil bear land,
so the temperature increases a lot. When you have many
areas like this in a certain region, you will have
a micro climate change. You will also have a very
big change in the capacity of the soil to retain
(14:06):
and in filter water. So the process of machine work
over the land compacts the soil a lot and then
changes its capacity of retaining and infiltering water, which is
one of the main amazing rolls of the Sahab for
(14:26):
the entire region. So when you change that when the
rain comes, you will have a lot of erosion happening
instead of infiltration. And all this land that is bare
or even if it's being worked by the tractors, it
will be taken to the rivers and to the creeks.
(14:48):
So we have this loss of soil, the soil compactation,
and the rivers will lose their capacity of retaining water
as well because the soil is covered the bed of
the river, as I may say. So it changes a
lot the micro climate. And if we see this processing
(15:12):
happening in many regions of the Sahada at the same time,
then we will have a change in the climate nationally.
And then we are seeing that today that this massive
fire is happening in Brazil, and we see all the
(15:33):
smoke coming from the north and the center to the
south of Brazil. We can see that the process of
water coming from the Amazon, crossing the Sahada and getting
into the southern Brazil is all integrated. All ecosystems are integrated.
So when you change the temperature and the humidity in
(15:55):
a certain region, you will change the entire process of water,
I mean from the floating rivers, and you will change
a lot of pattern of rain over the country. So
what we have now is the climate change. We don't
know how to stop it, but the climate already changed.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
So this this year, by one figure made a statement
that Brazil is going through the worst drought in seven
hundred years because of the lack of rain, the high
temperatures and the fires. Could you comment on the current
situation in this regards and it's the emergency nature of
the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, Well, last year we already had a very typical
year which the rivers in the Amazon went almost drought,
which would which was very impressive, and we were facing
the same but even worse and the fires. We're living
kind of a hell because the fires are everywhere. So
(16:59):
if you look over the map, the fires are in
almost all biomes in Brazil. And this is this is
some new thing. This is not something that we have
been seeing from the past years. So what we are
seeing now, James, is that climate already changed and this
process it changes all patterns, and we don't know what
(17:24):
expect anymore. And we are very scary because the rain
is changing, the fires are increasing, the temperatures are super
high and uh and and we don't know what expect.
We only know that we need to stop the forest
the forest sate, the forestating areas, stop clearing native vegetation,
(17:48):
and start planting again because otherwise this process will increase
more and more and we don't know what we can
be seen in the next years. I'm afraid because i
have a son that has four years old and I'm
afraid about his future.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
So in the last government of Jai Bosonado, we know
that the government had a very clear policy to support
unconditionally agrobusiness and allow for illegal mining and legal illegal deforestation.
And part of the movement I think against Bosonata was
to return to more sane environmental policies to deal with
(18:25):
climate change and global warming and all the problems that
it has on the country and the world. But nevertheless,
the bulk of the attention, especially in twenty nineteen the
first year of Bolsona's government, were the fires in the Amazon,
and they were on international press, the dispute between Macron
and France and Bosonado about the fires the Amazon gets
(18:51):
a lot of visibility and mobilizes a lot of support.
What is the ideas that environmentalists have towards how to
mobilize concern about the situation of Serjadu. What are the
projects that you've been involved in or other people are
involved in to try to improve the education about this
(19:11):
endangered biome and its importance not only for Brazil, but
for South America and for the planet as a whole.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
This is a huge challenge because we see that most
of people are really worried about the Amazon and not
worried about the Sahab and the Kachina and the Pantanao,
as they should be, because, as we say, all the
biomes are integrated. There are no walls between them. So
(19:42):
if we are only preserving the Amazon and the other
biomes are degraded, it will affect directly the Amazon as well.
And there are a lot of springs that goes to
the Amazon. There are springs in the Sahada. They're beginning
in the Sahad, and the same for the Pantanal. The
pan Canal depends one hundred percent on the Sajado. So
(20:05):
if we want to save the Pantanal, we need to
stop the foresting the sejadu around the pantana. So we
are trying toution between the biomes and the connection of
the waters between the byomes. Because the Sejado is, as
we say, is the heart of waters in Brazil, and
(20:28):
the waters that are springing in the Sejadu they go
to all the directions they go even they are important
even for our neighboring countries as Paraguay and Uruguay. So
the Sehadu is key even for energy generation in Brazil,
because most of energy in Brazil is from hydroelectric power
(20:49):
generation and most of them are inside the Sahaa. And
even in the Eguazo, the water that are in Ego Soul,
most of the water, much of the water comes from
the Saha. So the Shadu is also importance for a
national security aspect, So we are trying to bring these
(21:09):
ideas on and also to to say that the Shadu
is it's like the heart of the country and it's
bombing water for all directions, and without this heart, all
the others will will face very severe problems and and
and and for energy as well.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So the current Congress in Brazil is probably one of
the worst most conservative congresses in the history of the country.
Very strong agribusiness interests control key sectors of the Congress
and have influence in terms of making decisions and blocking legislation. Uh,
the current government doesn't have a guaranteed majority in its
(21:52):
coalition and some of its partners are not very loyal
to the government. So what can environmentalists do visa vid
the Brazilian government and regarding protections.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
We're trying to figure out. But at the same yeah,
because it's it's very hard because we want to support
the government, but at the same time, as they don't
have as much strength as we wanted we want them
to have, we also are we are also pressuring them
to move faster and to do what we have space
(22:28):
to do. But we understand that even though the government
is much more keen to support the environments as an idea,
but they have most of the ugri business power inside
the government. So the thing is that we don't We
are not seeing as much changes as we wanted to see,
(22:53):
but we are seeing some important steps. Of course, most
of the energy of the Ministry of Environment in the
first two years was to stop the deforestation in the Amazon,
which is very very important to us, but they are
moving very slow in terms of the Sahagu because they
don't have much power to affect the changes in the
(23:15):
Sahagu because most of the land is private instead of
public as in the Amazon, so most of the deforestation
in Sajagu can be allowed. So it's much harder to
work with the state governments from the position of the
Ministry of Environment. So what we are doing is we
(23:36):
are trying to work with the state governments and we
are trying to support the guarantee and the recognition of
the community's territories, the traditional and indigenous people's territories because
in the Sahabo they are key for the Sahada conservation
because we don't have much protected areas and we won't
have so we need to count on the potential of
(24:01):
the local communities to conserve the landscape, to maintain environmental services,
and to connect to different protected areas. Otherwise we won't
have a future for the Sahada. So we are trying
to work in this in the state level and in
the national level to to try to bring more recognition
(24:21):
to the to these territories.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
So you mentioned the status of indigenous peoples of the
original peoples of Brazil and the Kilumboulas or the traditional
communities originally have run away in slave people and others
who aggregated and to survive in the backlands of Brazil
after the abolition of slavery even before as they fled
(24:43):
the institution of slavery. What's the current situation of indigenous
peoples in the Cejago, the Kilumboulas, the people who come
from traditional Afro Brazilian communities or other river bed communities,
what what what what challenges are they face at this moment.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Well, for it's a it's a very different perspective from
the from the indigenous to the others, to the Lombolas
and other segments. There are at least twenty different identities
in the Sihago, like Jeda, Isaiae, previvus, fresh Jupascoba, Basul.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
And so on.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Uh. The challenge that these guys are facing is that
they don't have any legislation that recognizes they are collected
their common territory. So they are they are very much
pressured and they don't have uh support from the government
(25:48):
for a collective land uh titling. So they are very
much exposed to the pressures of land graby and to
greenland grab that we could also comment if you want.
And and they are they are the ones that are
helping to maintain the how do with their bodies, but
(26:12):
very very very pressured and.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Uh we said they're pushed off the land. Does that
mean that they're going to cities to survive or they're
being pushed into smaller areas where it's harder for them
to survive. What what is the actual status of indigenous communities?
For example, in the yeah, so I was I.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Was mentioning about the other segments. They don't have a recognition,
so they these ones are either moving to towns or
being isolated in small territories and not being able to
produce food anymore for example, uh and and and some
are being poisoned because of the use of massive girl
(26:51):
chemicals in the neighboring lands the kiln ballas they do
have the legislation that can go guarantee a common land. However,
we have about three thousand communities and only fifty or
something like this. I don't have the right numbers, but
(27:13):
very very small portion of these territories have already the
title of the land. So the government is moving very
very slow, and the demand for recognition of the Kilobola
territories is huge. So one study shows that if we
maintain the speed that we are doing now as a country,
(27:36):
we will take two thousand years to have all the
territories recognized. So it's almost nothing. They are not moving
at all, and so the community Columbola is because of that.
Even though they have the land recognition in the legislation,
they are suffering the same pressures as the others because
of the slow movements of the government. And for them,
(28:02):
please no sorry, just for the indigenals. Most of the
indigenous territories are already recognized, but they are islands of
sehabu with soy beans around, like in Shingou. If you
see the map of Mato Grosso, you see the map
of Shingoo exactly because everything around the Shingou territory is
(28:26):
massive soil production, so all the sprints of Shingoo is
outside Shingu. So what's happening is these communities are being
poisoned and they don't have much animals anymore to hunt
because of the isolation of the territories because they are
they don't have a continuous land of sehabu for for
(28:47):
these animals to thrive to reproduce, So they are being
being a lot pressured by the other business as well,
although they have the recognition of the land and if
you see in the map, these guys are those that
are conserving the sea do better in Brazil.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
So I would have liked to just at the end
of our conversation that they switch a little bit to
the Katchinga, which is something I've been always fascinated with
when I started learning about Brazil. Just so our listeners.
Kat China the word is a Tupi word ka achinga,
and it means white forest or white vegetation. Ca'ah is
a word for forest and our vegetation in Chinga is
(29:33):
white and so hence the term katchina and it's as
was mentioned, it's low moisture shrubland and thorny forest which
primarily consists of small thorny trees that shed very their
leaves seasonally. And it's it's for many people who study
Brazilian history and they get to the sixties and they're
(29:54):
interested in in the new cinema movement. They might see
a movie called Baron Lives of Vida Seca is based
on a novel that is set in the forties about
the or the Kachina. Could you tell us a little
bit more about the challenges that people in the Kachina
face and and the problems there and and what people
(30:15):
are proposing to solve them.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
The moment that the Vida SECAs was produced and disseminated,
the idea, the vision of the public people outside the
Katina is that this would be a very very poor
land with no richness, with no capacity of production, and
that the population must emigrate to be able to have
(30:43):
a proper life. And because of that, the population migrated
to the south, to Sampaolo, to huge Genetu and and
and during this this the fifties and sixties, this was
a massive movement. But after the after the democracy started
again in Brazil, and more and left wings parties started
(31:08):
to govern the country. UH there was a huge effort
on public policies to UH support the communities and the
and the smallholders in Katina for them to be able
to survive and to have a very good life, having
(31:29):
a connection and and being being able to to live
with the with the semi arid climate. So nowadays if
you travel around Katina, you will see a huge production
and many people UH having a good life because they
(31:51):
developed some what we call social technologies to be able
to live with the to live with the semi arid climate.
So most of the houses they have water systems for
drinking water coming from rain water from the roof, with
a lot of technologies to clean this water and to
take care of the health. And they also have what
(32:14):
they call the second water what is a lot of
different types of cystems depending on the context of the
family and the landscape. And they will also collect and
water from rain in bigger systems for production. So these
family is now they can maintain a garden, they can
maintain a production of fruits and crops around the houses
(32:40):
and to maintain their families. And also there are a
bunch of public policies to guarantee that the government will
buy some of this production for school meals and for
different purposes that the government needs to purchase food for
different programs, social assistant programs, but of course that they're
(33:05):
not the nature considering all this poverty problem. In the past,
the nature suffered a lot and the Katchinga was cut
either for wood for the ovens or for selling charcoal.
But nowadays there are many much more projects on vegetation
(33:25):
on nowadays, there are much more projects on Katchinga conservation
and many creation of protected areas in the past twenty years,
and now the Kachina is quite well conserved in comparison
to the shabit that is much it's being cleared much faster.
(33:46):
But the funny thing is that last year the biggest
driver of the forestation in the Katchinga was the projects
of solar power and wind power energy generation. So because
of this renewable energy, that is something that we really want.
(34:10):
But the way that is coming into the Kachina now
it's a very bad way without considering local communities and
they also are being displaced because of this kind of project,
and it's the foresting a lot of native vegetation to
(34:30):
produce solar and wind power generation.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
It's a value. You've painted a very dismal picture today
about Brazil, and so I'd like to ask if you
can give us some words of hope or positive stories
about some of the things that are happening. You've mentioned
some projects like the ones in the Kachina to regain
water and to guarantee a kind of livelihood for families
who want to stay in the region. But you perhaps
(34:55):
share with our listeners another positive story or some movement
that is hopeful in this regard. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Sure, Well, even with all these huge problems that we
are facing, we still have enormous nature vegetation areas with
the high diversity of plants and animals, and with the
local communities indigenous peoples that are living in a certain
(35:23):
harmony with native vegetation and nature. And what we have
to offer as a positive thing is that the have
and the Katina, they are amazing in pharmacies and you
can heal most of the diseases by the plants that
we have here. And the local knowledge, the traditional knowledge
(35:46):
is amazing and incredible and there are a lot to
be discovered, and also in terms of food, so we
have a bunch of nuts and fibers and fruit pulps
and different types of foods that we can that we
(36:07):
can harvest from the Sahaben from Kachina like budichi, babasuka, gaikamungaba,
umbu liqui that are amazing foods that could be disseminated
and then could generate income for local communities. And we
are working a lot on that on making these communities
(36:28):
viable either to harvesting sustainably biodiversity products but also produce
producing producing food on an agro ecological basis. And and
we still have many, many beautiful areas for ecotourism and
tourism on community bases, which is an amazing experience for
(36:52):
those the ones to know better the Sahaben than Kachina.
So we still have many things, many amazing things, and
many amazing people that have their lives being built inside
the Sahaba and the Katina and that they have all
this knowledge to share with us.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And Isabelle, do you have any words for international friends
of Brazil, people who love the country, respect the country
and want to be supportive of progressive change. What would
you be your message to people in the United States
or Europe or other parts of the world who might
hear this and be very concerned about wanting to help
fight against the environmental destruction and climate change.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I would recommend that you be aware where you are
investing your money, because most of the degradation and deforestation
in the Sahado comes from international investment in business in
the Sahada, and inclusive there was some investments from pension
funds from the Harvest University, and I believe that the
(37:56):
professors would never agree with something like this, but then
all these investment power companies, they have the power to
decide where to invest the money. So be aware where
you are investing your money. And I would also recommend
that you consume products from native biodiversity instead of consuming
(38:19):
the super processed food that requires a lot of soybean production.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Isabelle, I want to thank you so much for joining
us today on Brazil and Filter. We learned a lot.
I think you've sent a very important message to friends
in Brazil everywhere. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Thank you so much James for the interest, and I wait,
you guy guys here and all the Americans to know
better than Brazil, which is not only Amazon, it's also
sahadn Katina.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So I hope you enjoyed the interview today. If you're
watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the video, and
if you have not yet subscribed, please do so. If
you're listening on Apple Podcasts, spotif Fire, wherever you listen
to your podcast, please leave us a five star review.
It helps other people find the program. Have a great week.
Until next time at Te Approxima
Hi. I'm James Nila Green, Professor Emeritus of Brazilian History
and Culture at Brown University and the national co coordinator
of the US Network for Democracy in Brazil. This program
is supported by the Washington Brazil Office and is being
taped while I am a fellow at the American Academy
in Berlin. This is Brazil and Filtered Today, I have
(00:23):
the pleasure of interviewing Isabel Figuerredu, who was an ecologist
and coordinator of the Sergradro i Katingo program at the
Institute of Society, Population in Nature. With a master's degree
in ecology from the University of Brazilia. She has worked
for eighteen years on the conservation of the Sergadu with
indigenous peoples and communities to promote sustainable use of biodiversity.
(00:45):
She's coordinated the Small Grants program in Brazil for seventeen years,
supporting community initiatives that generate socio environmental benefits. Isabelle Welcome
to Brazil and Filtered.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you James for having me. It's a pleasure to participate.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So first of all, for our members of our audience
who might not be familiar with these terms and Portuguese
let's define two terms. What is a sajadu and what
is a kachina.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
The sahaving the katinger too biomes of Brazilian natural vegetation,
Brazilian natural ecosystems. They are very important for the whole
balance of Brazilian climate and biodiversity, but they are very
much unknown by general public. The sejadu is the savannah.
(01:36):
It's the most biodiverse savannah in the world. But when
I say savannah, you imagine only this kind of vegetation
that you can find.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
In Africa, the grasslands as they.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Call it grasslands. Yeah, but the Brazilian sehadu is a
gradient from grasslands in two forests and also having a
lot of differentfferent types of shrublands what we call clean
field and dirty field. So there are several types of
(02:09):
different vegetation that are over the like a mosaic in
the landscape. And this brings a very high biodiversity to
the sahaga. And the Kachinga is a dry forest. You
could see a semi arid region of Brazil with a
(02:29):
very specific biodiversity, also with species that are very well
adapted to drought. So they have developed a lot of
qualities to deal with the lack of water, and so
they are very resistant to drought, which could be very
interesting in this scenario of climate change. This knowledge that
(02:53):
this species cherry could be very interesting in the scenario
of tim and change. And also the Katchinga is the
home of a lot of indigenous peoples and local communities.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So if we can imagine a map of Brazil for
our audience, the big vast territory taking so much part
of South America, and the Amazon being at that core
in the center, and we're familiar with those maps of
the Amazon, where would the Serjado be in a relationship
to what we call the Amazon?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
The how do we actually is in the center of
Brazil in connection with the Amazon, which would take take
the northern part of the country, and in northeast would
be the Catchinga. The Hoa is about one fourth of
Brazilian territory and the Katchinga would be one fifth something
like that.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And the Amazon would be what percentage approximately.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I think one third of Brazilian territory, like thirty percent
something like this.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So if we were to describe it to someone and
I'm sure you did this a lot, what would be
happening in the Serhado. What are the geographical, social and
economic activities that are happening in this region of Brazil
which kind of surrounds like a belt around the Amazon
to a certain extent.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, what is going on in the Sahaba since the
late seventies is the massive clearing of the natural vegetation
to be replaced by monoculture production. During the seventies, there
(04:33):
was a lot of investments from international cooperation from the
Japanese agency Jaika to develop sort of a group of
technologies to be able to produce crops in the Sahaga.
Why is this important because the soil of the Sehado
(04:55):
is very very acid and in some parts of the
Sahada the structure of the soil would would not be
feasible for agriculture in large scale. But then there was
this massive investment to develop specific crop varieties to be
able to be produced in these conditions. And also all
(05:17):
the development of the agronomic package would be like a
package of technologies and techniques to to develop the potential
of the soil to produce large scale crops. And this
was very This was a big investment because the landscape
(05:39):
is very flat, so it would be possible possible to
be produced with with big machines and big tractors. So
since that time until now, there is a big investment
and a big effort by the agri business sector with
the support of the Brazilian golfment and also international investments
(06:02):
in replacing native vegetation of Sahagu too crops for exportations
such as cotton, maize and mainly soybeans, but also sugar,
cane and eucalyptus, and also of course pasture for for
cattle production. So the Sehadu, now we only have half
(06:26):
of the nature natural vegetation remaining. Half of it is
already gone. And you can see massive areas of soybeans
and now and and zero trees in in this big land.
So in this process what also happens is that the
(06:47):
local communities that that would live in this territory are
being are being pressured to leave their their territories and
uh and there are a lot of conflicts going on
in the Sahaba because of that.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
What are the products that are produced there? You mentioned
cotton and soy and the byproduct of grazing land for
cattle for beef production. What are the where these products
being exported to primarily is it to the United States,
Is it to Europe? Is it to chin China?
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Yeah, most of it's to China, but also to the
United States and to the European Union.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
So you mentioned the impact that this deforestation and the
transference of production to agricultural goods and grazing, and the
impact that that's had on the region. We in the
United States and people in Europe know a lot about
the environmental problems of the Amazon. Yeah, why should people
(07:51):
care about the Segrado? Can you give ourslicens some kind
of context about the challenges that this biome faces and
why it should be a concern for not only environmentalists
but other people concerned about global warming and the future
of the planet.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Actually, your footprint is much more in the Sahada than
in the Amazon, because most of the crops that these
countries are consuming are importing comes from the Sahada, not
from the Amazon. So the Sahada has very little protection
in comparison to the Amazon. First of all, because of
(08:27):
the Forest Code, our main legislation over protection of native vegetation,
defines that the Amazon must be in a private land.
In the Amazon, it must be until eighty percent of protection.
So if you're going to produce in a certain property
(08:49):
in the Amazon, you can only cut twenty percent of
the native vegetation for production. On the other hand, in
the Sahada, this personage goes from thirty five to twenty percent,
So only twenty percent of a certain private property must
(09:10):
be preserved as a legal reserve as we call. So
the problem is the legislature. We have a good legislation
even so, the protection of the Sehago it's much smaller
than in the Amazon, but still if it would be
very well applied, it could bring enough protection or at
(09:31):
least a minimum of protection. But to consider the connection
between fragments, you need to consider the water infiltration in
the soil and many others criteria, many other criteria that
could define that this property is in compliance to the legislation.
But there are many problems regarding land tenure and grabbing.
(09:56):
It's a massive problem in the Sejaga now and since ever.
So what we see is that the legislation is not
being well applied in addition to its short protection.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
So how does the land grabbing work. You mentioned that
that's something that has been discussed by environmentalists about the
problem mostly talking about land grabbing in the Amazon again
and invading indigenous lands and bringing illegal lumbering and mining
into indigenous lands. How does the land grabbing work? How
(10:32):
does that that process take place?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Land grabbing is a process that has different types of
processes to be taken. So most of them are regarding
corruption in land register systems. So you can even change
the amount of land in certain register, you can attach
(10:56):
other lends in a certain register, or you can even
create a new register, a new title for a certain
land that you already know that it's a public land.
And because Brazil would too be the and the Brazilian
government is too slow. Until the government reaches this land,
(11:18):
the production is therefore for ten twenty years. So what
is going on is that during this process the communities
that you used to work and to live and to
the pain on this land are being displaced and being
(11:42):
and being isolated and being pressured over smaller and smaller land.
And this massive production over public land that is not
private land that is being taken that the public land
is being taken through the land gravit. And so most
(12:07):
of the production in the Sejado is not legal from
the point of view of land tenures. It's hard to
explain because it's a very complex process.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So at Brown University, about half a decade ago or so,
there was a conference on the environment and the Amazon
and Serja. I was very I learned a lot at
that conference. And at the time there had been a
discussion this is pre Bolsnardo, this is pre Tamor, in
which there had been a really increase in monitoring of deforestation.
(12:39):
It had radically decreased, and there were really good ways
that through geospatial monitoring one could determine what lands were
being illegally deforested and what lands were being appropriately used
for the agreed upon purpose of according to the thelaw.
(13:01):
What happens when you take and cut down trees and
the cercado to plant soybeans. What happens to the landscape?
What happens to the environment, What happens to the climate?
As a result of this large scale, uncontrolled agricultural production.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
The climate exactly over the land changes a lot. So
the temperature increases a lot. So when you have imasive
area of native vegetation being replaced by a crop, you
have certain you have like tree four or five months
of the year that you are not planting nothing because
(13:45):
of the drought, and then you have bear soil bear land,
so the temperature increases a lot. When you have many
areas like this in a certain region, you will have
a micro climate change. You will also have a very
big change in the capacity of the soil to retain
(14:06):
and in filter water. So the process of machine work
over the land compacts the soil a lot and then
changes its capacity of retaining and infiltering water, which is
one of the main amazing rolls of the Sahab for
(14:26):
the entire region. So when you change that when the
rain comes, you will have a lot of erosion happening
instead of infiltration. And all this land that is bare
or even if it's being worked by the tractors, it
will be taken to the rivers and to the creeks.
(14:48):
So we have this loss of soil, the soil compactation,
and the rivers will lose their capacity of retaining water
as well because the soil is covered the bed of
the river, as I may say. So it changes a
lot the micro climate. And if we see this processing
(15:12):
happening in many regions of the Sahada at the same time,
then we will have a change in the climate nationally.
And then we are seeing that today that this massive
fire is happening in Brazil, and we see all the
(15:33):
smoke coming from the north and the center to the
south of Brazil. We can see that the process of
water coming from the Amazon, crossing the Sahada and getting
into the southern Brazil is all integrated. All ecosystems are integrated.
So when you change the temperature and the humidity in
(15:55):
a certain region, you will change the entire process of water,
I mean from the floating rivers, and you will change
a lot of pattern of rain over the country. So
what we have now is the climate change. We don't
know how to stop it, but the climate already changed.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
So this this year, by one figure made a statement
that Brazil is going through the worst drought in seven
hundred years because of the lack of rain, the high
temperatures and the fires. Could you comment on the current
situation in this regards and it's the emergency nature of
the situation.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, Well, last year we already had a very typical
year which the rivers in the Amazon went almost drought,
which would which was very impressive, and we were facing
the same but even worse and the fires. We're living
kind of a hell because the fires are everywhere. So
(16:59):
if you look over the map, the fires are in
almost all biomes in Brazil. And this is this is
some new thing. This is not something that we have
been seeing from the past years. So what we are
seeing now, James, is that climate already changed and this
process it changes all patterns, and we don't know what
(17:24):
expect anymore. And we are very scary because the rain
is changing, the fires are increasing, the temperatures are super
high and uh and and we don't know what expect.
We only know that we need to stop the forest
the forest sate, the forestating areas, stop clearing native vegetation,
(17:48):
and start planting again because otherwise this process will increase
more and more and we don't know what we can
be seen in the next years. I'm afraid because i
have a son that has four years old and I'm
afraid about his future.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
So in the last government of Jai Bosonado, we know
that the government had a very clear policy to support
unconditionally agrobusiness and allow for illegal mining and legal illegal deforestation.
And part of the movement I think against Bosonata was
to return to more sane environmental policies to deal with
(18:25):
climate change and global warming and all the problems that
it has on the country and the world. But nevertheless,
the bulk of the attention, especially in twenty nineteen the
first year of Bolsona's government, were the fires in the Amazon,
and they were on international press, the dispute between Macron
and France and Bosonado about the fires the Amazon gets
(18:51):
a lot of visibility and mobilizes a lot of support.
What is the ideas that environmentalists have towards how to
mobilize concern about the situation of Serjadu. What are the
projects that you've been involved in or other people are
involved in to try to improve the education about this
(19:11):
endangered biome and its importance not only for Brazil, but
for South America and for the planet as a whole.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
This is a huge challenge because we see that most
of people are really worried about the Amazon and not
worried about the Sahab and the Kachina and the Pantanao,
as they should be, because, as we say, all the
biomes are integrated. There are no walls between them. So
(19:42):
if we are only preserving the Amazon and the other
biomes are degraded, it will affect directly the Amazon as well.
And there are a lot of springs that goes to
the Amazon. There are springs in the Sahada. They're beginning
in the Sahad, and the same for the Pantanal. The
pan Canal depends one hundred percent on the Sajado. So
(20:05):
if we want to save the Pantanal, we need to
stop the foresting the sejadu around the pantana. So we
are trying toution between the biomes and the connection of
the waters between the byomes. Because the Sejado is, as
we say, is the heart of waters in Brazil, and
(20:28):
the waters that are springing in the Sejadu they go
to all the directions they go even they are important
even for our neighboring countries as Paraguay and Uruguay. So
the Sehadu is key even for energy generation in Brazil,
because most of energy in Brazil is from hydroelectric power
(20:49):
generation and most of them are inside the Sahaa. And
even in the Eguazo, the water that are in Ego Soul,
most of the water, much of the water comes from
the Saha. So the Shadu is also importance for a
national security aspect, So we are trying to bring these
(21:09):
ideas on and also to to say that the Shadu
is it's like the heart of the country and it's
bombing water for all directions, and without this heart, all
the others will will face very severe problems and and
and and for energy as well.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
So the current Congress in Brazil is probably one of
the worst most conservative congresses in the history of the country.
Very strong agribusiness interests control key sectors of the Congress
and have influence in terms of making decisions and blocking legislation. Uh,
the current government doesn't have a guaranteed majority in its
(21:52):
coalition and some of its partners are not very loyal
to the government. So what can environmentalists do visa vid
the Brazilian government and regarding protections.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
We're trying to figure out. But at the same yeah,
because it's it's very hard because we want to support
the government, but at the same time, as they don't
have as much strength as we wanted we want them
to have, we also are we are also pressuring them
to move faster and to do what we have space
(22:28):
to do. But we understand that even though the government
is much more keen to support the environments as an idea,
but they have most of the ugri business power inside
the government. So the thing is that we don't We
are not seeing as much changes as we wanted to see,
(22:53):
but we are seeing some important steps. Of course, most
of the energy of the Ministry of Environment in the
first two years was to stop the deforestation in the Amazon,
which is very very important to us, but they are
moving very slow in terms of the Sahagu because they
don't have much power to affect the changes in the
(23:15):
Sahagu because most of the land is private instead of
public as in the Amazon, so most of the deforestation
in Sajagu can be allowed. So it's much harder to
work with the state governments from the position of the
Ministry of Environment. So what we are doing is we
(23:36):
are trying to work with the state governments and we
are trying to support the guarantee and the recognition of
the community's territories, the traditional and indigenous people's territories because
in the Sahabo they are key for the Sahada conservation
because we don't have much protected areas and we won't
have so we need to count on the potential of
(24:01):
the local communities to conserve the landscape, to maintain environmental services,
and to connect to different protected areas. Otherwise we won't
have a future for the Sahada. So we are trying
to work in this in the state level and in
the national level to to try to bring more recognition
(24:21):
to the to these territories.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
So you mentioned the status of indigenous peoples of the
original peoples of Brazil and the Kilumboulas or the traditional
communities originally have run away in slave people and others
who aggregated and to survive in the backlands of Brazil
after the abolition of slavery even before as they fled
(24:43):
the institution of slavery. What's the current situation of indigenous
peoples in the Cejago, the Kilumboulas, the people who come
from traditional Afro Brazilian communities or other river bed communities,
what what what what challenges are they face at this moment.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Well, for it's a it's a very different perspective from
the from the indigenous to the others, to the Lombolas
and other segments. There are at least twenty different identities
in the Sihago, like Jeda, Isaiae, previvus, fresh Jupascoba, Basul.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
And so on.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Uh. The challenge that these guys are facing is that
they don't have any legislation that recognizes they are collected
their common territory. So they are they are very much
pressured and they don't have uh support from the government
(25:48):
for a collective land uh titling. So they are very
much exposed to the pressures of land graby and to
greenland grab that we could also comment if you want.
And and they are they are the ones that are
helping to maintain the how do with their bodies, but
(26:12):
very very very pressured and.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Uh we said they're pushed off the land. Does that
mean that they're going to cities to survive or they're
being pushed into smaller areas where it's harder for them
to survive. What what is the actual status of indigenous communities?
For example, in the yeah, so I was I.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Was mentioning about the other segments. They don't have a recognition,
so they these ones are either moving to towns or
being isolated in small territories and not being able to
produce food anymore for example, uh and and and some
are being poisoned because of the use of massive girl
(26:51):
chemicals in the neighboring lands the kiln ballas they do
have the legislation that can go guarantee a common land. However,
we have about three thousand communities and only fifty or
something like this. I don't have the right numbers, but
(27:13):
very very small portion of these territories have already the
title of the land. So the government is moving very
very slow, and the demand for recognition of the Kilobola
territories is huge. So one study shows that if we
maintain the speed that we are doing now as a country,
(27:36):
we will take two thousand years to have all the
territories recognized. So it's almost nothing. They are not moving
at all, and so the community Columbola is because of that.
Even though they have the land recognition in the legislation,
they are suffering the same pressures as the others because
of the slow movements of the government. And for them,
(28:02):
please no sorry, just for the indigenals. Most of the
indigenous territories are already recognized, but they are islands of
sehabu with soy beans around, like in Shingou. If you
see the map of Mato Grosso, you see the map
of Shingoo exactly because everything around the Shingou territory is
(28:26):
massive soil production, so all the sprints of Shingoo is
outside Shingu. So what's happening is these communities are being
poisoned and they don't have much animals anymore to hunt
because of the isolation of the territories because they are
they don't have a continuous land of sehabu for for
(28:47):
these animals to thrive to reproduce, So they are being
being a lot pressured by the other business as well,
although they have the recognition of the land and if
you see in the map, these guys are those that
are conserving the sea do better in Brazil.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
So I would have liked to just at the end
of our conversation that they switch a little bit to
the Katchinga, which is something I've been always fascinated with
when I started learning about Brazil. Just so our listeners.
Kat China the word is a Tupi word ka achinga,
and it means white forest or white vegetation. Ca'ah is
a word for forest and our vegetation in Chinga is
(29:33):
white and so hence the term katchina and it's as
was mentioned, it's low moisture shrubland and thorny forest which
primarily consists of small thorny trees that shed very their
leaves seasonally. And it's it's for many people who study
Brazilian history and they get to the sixties and they're
(29:54):
interested in in the new cinema movement. They might see
a movie called Baron Lives of Vida Seca is based
on a novel that is set in the forties about
the or the Kachina. Could you tell us a little
bit more about the challenges that people in the Kachina
face and and the problems there and and what people
(30:15):
are proposing to solve them.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
The moment that the Vida SECAs was produced and disseminated,
the idea, the vision of the public people outside the
Katina is that this would be a very very poor
land with no richness, with no capacity of production, and
that the population must emigrate to be able to have
(30:43):
a proper life. And because of that, the population migrated
to the south, to Sampaolo, to huge Genetu and and
and during this this the fifties and sixties, this was
a massive movement. But after the after the democracy started
again in Brazil, and more and left wings parties started
(31:08):
to govern the country. UH there was a huge effort
on public policies to UH support the communities and the
and the smallholders in Katina for them to be able
to survive and to have a very good life, having
(31:29):
a connection and and being being able to to live
with the with the semi arid climate. So nowadays if
you travel around Katina, you will see a huge production
and many people UH having a good life because they
(31:51):
developed some what we call social technologies to be able
to live with the to live with the semi arid climate.
So most of the houses they have water systems for
drinking water coming from rain water from the roof, with
a lot of technologies to clean this water and to
take care of the health. And they also have what
(32:14):
they call the second water what is a lot of
different types of cystems depending on the context of the
family and the landscape. And they will also collect and
water from rain in bigger systems for production. So these
family is now they can maintain a garden, they can
maintain a production of fruits and crops around the houses
(32:40):
and to maintain their families. And also there are a
bunch of public policies to guarantee that the government will
buy some of this production for school meals and for
different purposes that the government needs to purchase food for
different programs, social assistant programs, but of course that they're
(33:05):
not the nature considering all this poverty problem. In the past,
the nature suffered a lot and the Katchinga was cut
either for wood for the ovens or for selling charcoal.
But nowadays there are many much more projects on vegetation
(33:25):
on nowadays, there are much more projects on Katchinga conservation
and many creation of protected areas in the past twenty years,
and now the Kachina is quite well conserved in comparison
to the shabit that is much it's being cleared much faster.
(33:46):
But the funny thing is that last year the biggest
driver of the forestation in the Katchinga was the projects
of solar power and wind power energy generation. So because
of this renewable energy, that is something that we really want.
(34:10):
But the way that is coming into the Kachina now
it's a very bad way without considering local communities and
they also are being displaced because of this kind of project,
and it's the foresting a lot of native vegetation to
(34:30):
produce solar and wind power generation.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
It's a value. You've painted a very dismal picture today
about Brazil, and so I'd like to ask if you
can give us some words of hope or positive stories
about some of the things that are happening. You've mentioned
some projects like the ones in the Kachina to regain
water and to guarantee a kind of livelihood for families
who want to stay in the region. But you perhaps
(34:55):
share with our listeners another positive story or some movement
that is hopeful in this regard. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Sure, Well, even with all these huge problems that we
are facing, we still have enormous nature vegetation areas with
the high diversity of plants and animals, and with the
local communities indigenous peoples that are living in a certain
(35:23):
harmony with native vegetation and nature. And what we have
to offer as a positive thing is that the have
and the Katina, they are amazing in pharmacies and you
can heal most of the diseases by the plants that
we have here. And the local knowledge, the traditional knowledge
(35:46):
is amazing and incredible and there are a lot to
be discovered, and also in terms of food, so we
have a bunch of nuts and fibers and fruit pulps
and different types of foods that we can that we
(36:07):
can harvest from the Sahaben from Kachina like budichi, babasuka, gaikamungaba,
umbu liqui that are amazing foods that could be disseminated
and then could generate income for local communities. And we
are working a lot on that on making these communities
(36:28):
viable either to harvesting sustainably biodiversity products but also produce
producing producing food on an agro ecological basis. And and
we still have many, many beautiful areas for ecotourism and
tourism on community bases, which is an amazing experience for
(36:52):
those the ones to know better the Sahaben than Kachina.
So we still have many things, many amazing things, and
many amazing people that have their lives being built inside
the Sahaba and the Katina and that they have all
this knowledge to share with us.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And Isabelle, do you have any words for international friends
of Brazil, people who love the country, respect the country
and want to be supportive of progressive change. What would
you be your message to people in the United States
or Europe or other parts of the world who might
hear this and be very concerned about wanting to help
fight against the environmental destruction and climate change.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I would recommend that you be aware where you are
investing your money, because most of the degradation and deforestation
in the Sahado comes from international investment in business in
the Sahada, and inclusive there was some investments from pension
funds from the Harvest University, and I believe that the
(37:56):
professors would never agree with something like this, but then
all these investment power companies, they have the power to
decide where to invest the money. So be aware where
you are investing your money. And I would also recommend
that you consume products from native biodiversity instead of consuming
(38:19):
the super processed food that requires a lot of soybean production.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Isabelle, I want to thank you so much for joining
us today on Brazil and Filter. We learned a lot.
I think you've sent a very important message to friends
in Brazil everywhere. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Thank you so much James for the interest, and I wait,
you guy guys here and all the Americans to know
better than Brazil, which is not only Amazon, it's also
sahadn Katina.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
So I hope you enjoyed the interview today. If you're
watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the video, and
if you have not yet subscribed, please do so. If
you're listening on Apple Podcasts, spotif Fire, wherever you listen
to your podcast, please leave us a five star review.
It helps other people find the program. Have a great week.
Until next time at Te Approxima
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