May 29, 2025 • 18 mins
Valerii Kucherenko, Director of Railway Education at the Center for Railway Research and Education (CRRE), joins the Broad Matters podcast to provide an overview of the program. Val provides insight into how the center continues to be a knowledge leader and educator for both the freight and passenger rail industries.
Learn more about the Center for Railway Research and Education by going to raileducation.com and follow Val on his LinkedIn for more news about the program.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Quinetta Roberson (00:00):
Welcome to Broad Matters.
Ken Szymusiak (00:02):
A podcast
bringing you thought leadership,innovative perspectives and real world
impact from Michigan State University'sEli Broad College of Business.
I'm Ken Szymusiak,
managing director
for the Burgess Institutefor Entrepreneurship and Innovation,
Quinetta Roberson: and I'm Quinta Robertson, (00:15):
undefined
the John Hanna DistinguishedProfessor of Management and Psychology.
Today we're joined by Val Kucherenko,the director of the Center
for RailwayResearch and Education at Broad.
Val joined Michigan State Universityin August
2024,taking over the railroad education program
from former director Nicholas Little,who was a previous podcast guest.
(00:38):
In today's episode,we'll dive into the exciting updates
since we last discussed the program,explore
the latest innovations in the industry,and talk about how Broad
graduates are being preparedto lead the future of rail.
Thanks for being here.Valerii Kucherenko: Thank you.
Thank you for having me heretoday. Ken Szymusiak: Val,
let's start by learning a little bitabout your background.
How did you get startedin the railway industry
(01:00):
and what led you to Michigan State?
Valerii Kucherenko (01:01):
Well, first of all, I'm a third generation railroader.
My parents were railroaders.
My grandparents were all railroadersin Eastern Europe.
So when I moved to Canada ten years agowith my family,
there was not a waybut to sort of continue with that destiny.
And I joined the Canadian Pacific KansasCity Railway in Toronto, up in Canada,
and I spent the last six years with themprior to joining MSU.
So it's been quite a fascinating journey.I can tell you.
(01:23):
Prior to that, I spent the last 20 yearsin international supply chain moving
containers,working for the shipping lines.
It was sort of, you know, innatural continuation of that journey.
And after that, I realizedthat I have a strong passion for education
and making sure that there are futureleaders in the railway industry.
And that's why I decided to joinMSU last year.
So I'm happy with the decision.
I have been enjoying every minutefor the last nine months.
Quinetta Roberson (01:45):
Could you tell us about the center for Railway Research and Education?
What are the key goals and prioritiesand who participates in the program?
Valerii Kucherenko: The center itself was founded in 2007 (01:53):
undefined
by the gentleman whose name is EdwardBurkhardt.
He's been around the industry for many,many years, and his idea
was to invest and nurture the futureleaders in the railway industry.
So that's when the centerwas established here with MSU.
And right around that time, the centerdecided to launch the Railway Management
Certificate program.
(02:13):
So it has been aroundfor almost 20 years.
And actually this yearwe are celebrating the 20th anniversary
of the Railway ManagementCertificate program.
Over the years,we've had more than 300 participants
that graduated from the programand the popularity of the program
has been growing overthe last couple of years.
The primary reasonis that we sort of cracked
that idea of pitching this to the audienceand bringing the value
(02:34):
to both the organization,to the participants themselves.
Our participants primarily comefrom the shortline and regional railroads.
Sometimes we have classone hour roads that join us,
and the main ideais to facilitate the growth
and make sure that we provide toolsrequired
for the future leadersin the railway industry,
because it's quite a uniquesince we’re close to industry.
There’snot a lot of folks are actually familiar
with the rail industry and have a tendency
(02:56):
to stay within the industrywithout sort of exposing themselves.
So we pulled them outof this sort of comfort zone
and give them tools and knowledgeto lead the railway industry.
Ken Szymusiak (03:03):
One of the things that's so interesting about the program
is how you bridge academic researchand real world application.
How does the center work with agencypartners, government organizations
and industry thought leadersto educate program participants?
Valerii Kucherenko: Yeah, it's very unique. (03:16):
undefined
I just wanted to highlight that we arethe only center in the North American
railway industry and the education spherethat actually works with leaders.
A lot of universitiesfocus on the technical side,
sort of nutsand bolts of the railway industry.
We have a leadership programthat is very unique
and essentially what we've been doing,
we specifically have been focusingon in-person participation.
(03:37):
The primary reason
is that the only way to learnthe industry is to actually get engaged
and go to different sitesand talk to folks and executives
and learn from them,because they have a lot of experience.
And the only way to learnis not by just going in and listen to the,
you know, executives in the class,but actually get out there
and touch and feel and have conversationswith those executives.
So what we do is that we organizea program for different modules,
(03:59):
and our participantsgo through all of these four modules.
Usually during the week,each module takes up to five days
and they travel from site to site.
Typically we have moduleone here in Lansing, in Michigan,
where we introduce them to the coreskills, the soft skills.
They to go through leadershipnegotiation, strategy classes.
And we also startintroducing them to the railway industry.
We take them on a tour, a one day tourto one of the regional railroads
(04:23):
in Michigan,
and then on module two,and we take them to Washington
and New York, modulethree in Texas, in Colorado,
and the last modulesin Indianapolis and Chicago.
That's where they get exposed.
And really,
you know, learned through thatby having boots on the ground, so to say.
By having conversationswith the executives
that helps them to understandwhat the railway industry is all about,
because it's, you know, you can reallyunderstand that by reading the books.
(04:45):
It helps.
But really the understandingand the knowledge comes from
those conversationsin all classes across the country.
Ken Szymusiak (04:52):
That's really cool.
Just another questionon the demographics, Val.
Are there a lot of folks who join
who are maybe transitioningfrom different industries into rail?
Do you see that happen?
Or is it mostly folks who are,you know, have been hired in the rail,
maybe are just trying to learn and climbthe leadership ranks?
Valerii Kucherenko: Very interesting question, (05:07):
undefined
because I was looking at the numbersliterally last week.
This year we've got participantsfrom two countries,
18 different statesand 24 different organizations.
I would say the majority of themcome from the industry.
A lot of them have spent years and yearsin the railway industry.
An interesting factabout the rail industry: quite often,
especially on the operational side,
there's been years and yearsgrowing within the organization.
(05:30):
Then they get to the point where they needsome sort of formal education
and moral leadership skills,and that's when we come handy.
We help them out, give them a sort of handand provide them with the tools
that give them opportunityto stay within the organizations
and learn from executivesand then prosper as future leaders,
and then become better professionalsand human beings.
Quinetta Roberson (05:48):
Do you find that the participants in the program
lean more freight versus passenger,
or is it kind of equally distributedin the program?
Valerii Kucherenko: Really good question. (05:57):
undefined
I would say that there is normal tendencyto have probably 80 to maybe
90 percent of participants coming fromfreight rail rather than passenger.
And it's a normal distributionbecause majority of 135,000 employees
across the rail industry are involvedin freight rather than commuter rail.
Even though we have a numberof participants coming from New York
(06:18):
and Chicagotransit systems, from Amtrak recently,
and we see, more interestfrom those organizations
because they understandthat the only way to promote passenger
rail is to actually get engaged,to have conversations, those open dialogs
with the freight and rail folks and,sort of promote, commuter rail
among professionals in the rail industry,but also having conversations
with executives and different stakeholderswithin the rail industry helps
(06:41):
to bring that topicto the top of the agenda.
Ken Szymusiak (06:44):
That's awesome.
Thank you.
We've seen a lot of discussionaround the state of commuter and passenger
trains lately,specifically in North America.
Based on your work,what are some of the main challenges
we have here for the commuterand passenger train industry?
Valerii Kucherenko (06:55):
If we look at this from a perspective of North American
market, we're sort of in the same boatversus, say, Asia with Europe.
You know, we have to look at the history.
That all goes back to how markets inthe countries have been developing.
In Europe, there has been a lot of focuson, commuter rail, passenger rail.
And the government has beensignificantly involved over the years.
In North America, we've been primarilyfocused on moving freight.
(07:18):
And historically, private organizations,they've been developing
as freight railways,
but also have had to sort of chip inand contribute to the passenger rail.
And that's been quite oftenconsidered as a burden.
So until 1971,when Amtrak was established
in North America and VIA Rail in Canada,there was no formal organization
that would actually handle or managethe passenger rail across Canada and US.
(07:41):
It was all fragmented, and the differentorganizations have taken it differently.
Some were better.
Others were worse.
That only came to fruitionwhen these two organizations were formed
in two countries that createdthat uniformity across the industry,
and that actually helped to boostpassenger commuter rail in North America.
But given the fact that US and Canadahave been primarily investing in highway
(08:03):
infrastructure, that sort of put us behindin terms of accessibility.
And don't forget about the densityof population in North America
versus Europe or Asia.
There is that culture of car.
And quite oftenwe jump in a car and go somewhere
instead of, you know,taking the public transportation.
So it's ingrained in the culture.
It's hard to change and it takes time.
I would say thatboth Amtrak and VIA Rail in Canada
(08:23):
have been doing a pretty good jobon educating and providing some programs
for commuter rail to become more popular,but I would say it still remains
a challenge.
Quinetta Roberson (08:33):
So Ken asked about the commuter and passenger train industry.
Can you tell us a bitabout how you talk about these issues
in the program, and how participantsare being prepared to address them?
Valerii Kucherenko: There's a tendency in North America, (08:44):
undefined
whenever the subject of rail comes to conversation, it's instantly freight.
Be it containers, rail cars, auto racks.
It doesn't really matter.
It's almost always freight.
What we're trying to do is to injectmore commuter and passenger rail
into the classes and conversations,and we try to balance that as much as
(09:07):
we can by having also executivesand the subject matter experts that talk
not only about freight,but also commuter rail.
We have a number of site visits in Chicagoand Washington and New York
that's specifically tailored towardscommuter rail.
We work with Amtrak, with Metrain Chicago,
with new Jersey Transit in Newark.
And that helps to actually diversifythat sort of subject
(09:29):
of freight rail with a little bitmore of commuter and passenger rail.
It comes naturally, I would say, but stillwe have to have honest conversation
with freight folks,
because there is a natural sortof competition between freight
and commuter rail; because, definitelyin North America, freight takes priority.
You understand. It'sa backbone of North American economy.
And railroad is quite often proud to say,“we move the economy” and I get it.
(09:51):
But the commuter rail, passenger
rail is equally importantbecause if you look at the numbers,
roughly one train takes off the highway260 trucks.
But it's equally importantfor the passenger and commuter rail,
because rail is the most efficient wayof transportation whether it be freight
or passengers by land.
So it doesn't really matter if you'removing passengers or freight that matters.
(10:11):
That actually brings
that subject of emissions and reductionin emissions of CO2 emissions.
Typically in North America,we jump in the car.
Best case scenario would take a bus,but quite rare wethink about alternatives
such as train.
And it's interesting that in many largecities, be it New York, Chicago,
those options are available.
We just don't use them quite often.
Quinetta Roberson (10:30):
Well, I have to tell you, I appreciate the call out.
I grew up on the East Coast,so I’ve taken New Jersey transit.
I rode the subway in Philly.
I took DC Metro.
But then I also think abouttaking the train in other countries
and it is more of an experienceto be on a passenger train.
I was recently in Kyotoand they had the Hello Kitty train.
Ken Szymusiak (10:51):
I saw that. Quinetta Roberson
That's pretty cool.
Quinetta Roberson (10:55):
Yeah. Ken Szymusiak
that the owners of the Orient Express areadding two more luxury lines in Europe.
I know in North Americawe've done a few things.
I really like the Canadian Rockies train,and I think there's a couple
on the West Coast.
But do you see a space where
private industry or hospitality businessbegins to dabble in this space in America?
Is there any movement?
Valerii Kucherenko (11:15):
I would say it's been on the rise over the last decade or more.
The reason being is that definitelythere is that growth of popularity
among the older generation,and they have that feeling,
a notion of taking the trains
as part of the vacation journey,which to me is one of those opportunities
that definitely railroadscan capitalize on.
And as you rightly pointed out, in Canada,they have Rocky Mountains and trains
(11:38):
that are extremely popular.
They have cross-Canada trainsthat actually take you on a journey
for more than five days,and you can actually experience
the entire countryrather than flying from point A to B.
In the US,
there have been a number of trainsthat have been, growing in popularity,
and I think there is definitely a marketfor that.
In Europe and Asia,they've been probably doing a better job
in terms of, you know, making this moreof an experience, as you mentioned out.
(11:59):
And this is the whole point of movingthat towards the new industry
or being a new innovative industry,is that looking at this
from an experience perspective,rather than moving from point A to B.
And that's where I thinkthe growth will come in the future.
Because with human beings,if you look at this
from a perspective of Maslow'sPyramid. Right?
We always look for something elseas we get to a certain level.
(12:20):
And definitely that opportunityof experience in railroads, experience
in the countrysideand actually enjoying it,
that'sdefinitely the next level on that pyramid.
And I believe that'swhere railroads are going with this.
Quinetta Roberson (12:30):
Does the center engage with industries outside of rail
to explore how they might benefit fromor integrate rail transportation
into their operations?
Valerii Kucherenko (12:39):
Yes, we have been engaged
in a number of government organizationsand agencies over the years, and recently
we have been, engagingmore with the nonprofit organizations
who really showcase the railroad industryand what it is
and what it does to the communities,because quite often,
what we hear about the railroadsis when something goes sideways.
But the reality is
that we rely on the railway industrysignificantly in North America.
(13:03):
From a freight perspective,pretty much all the containers.
So the import that comes in Canada or U.S.
comes through one of the ports,
be it from, you know, on the east side
or in the west side,and it doesn't really matter,
because what actually happensthen is that railroads
actually take it on the backand deliver that to the final destination.
Then trucks actually did the last mile.
And that's essentially what I meanwhen I say that railroads are the backbone
(13:24):
because they move cargo.
And if we look at cargofrom a perspective of what it is,
it can be grain, it can be fertilizers,it can be ore, it can be metals,
oil, all of that, most by trainsacross the country, between the countries.
And if you look at the North Americancontinent from prospective countries.
We have three major countriesCanada, U.S. and Mexico.
And a lot of those actually move
between those countries on a daily basis,seamlessly, quite often invisibly to us.
(13:46):
All we hear oftenis the whistles right, of those trains,
but they do a lot of jobbehind the scenes,
and that's what we do when we engagethose agencies and the communities.
We try to explain
and tell the story of what the railwayindustry does behind the scenes.
So I would say, yes, we've been pretty active for the last several years.
Engaged in nonprofit organizationsand government agencies
to bring that perspective
to the communities.Ken Szymusiak: Looking at the broader railway industry.
(14:09):
What do you see as the major trends
that participants will need to be preparedfor in the next 5 to 10 years?
And what are you most excitedabout the future of your program?
Valerii Kucherenko: There are a number of topics, (14:17):
undefined
but obviously I wouldhighlight the motive power
because historically,
if we look backat the history of railroading,
there was a steamthat essentially changed the entire world,
and then the diesel locomotivecame to play.
Diesel electric locomotiveshave been pulling cars for many years
and there hasn't been a lot of change.
But what we see now
is that the industry is going throughone of the major transformations.
(14:39):
There are two major venues that probablythe railway industry will take on.
They are sort of,you know, playing with both of them.
One of them is hydrogen locomotive powerand another one is electric.
And they have advantages and disadvantagesdepending on how you look at it,
from a perspectiveof the length of the haul
and the proximity to recharging stationsfor the major cities.
And one interesting fact isthat the center has been involved in
(15:02):
research that resultedin the launch of the hydrogen passenger
commuter service in San Bernardino,California several years ago.
So I would say this will be the gamechanger in the next probably ten years.
Which way the railways will take it,I don't know.
I don't have a crystal ball.
Both of them have advantagesand disadvantages,
and I think the industrywill settle somewhere in the middle.
There will probably bea combination of both.
(15:22):
Other than that,I would say that visibility.
If you look at the railway industry,it's an integral part of the supply chain.
Even though supply chainhas been advancing over the years.
If you look at the Amazonsand Walmarts of the world, right,
they have visibilitythat actually key, right?
You can essentially track your packageon your phone.
It's not the case in the railway industry.
It's very fragmented in this way.
And I think that will bethe next big thing for the rail industry
(15:44):
to actually embrace the technologyand come up with a solution
that will address the divisibilityaspects of transportation.
Because if I look at thisfrom a perspective, international supply
chain, you can book cargo somewherefrom Asia or in Europe,
and you can get 100% visibilityof where the container is.
But when it hitsthe North American market, quite often
you'll lose that visibility.
And you have to really work hardusing more traditional ways
(16:07):
of calling and emailing,and I think that has to go away.
And I think that'll be a transformationof the industry in years to come.
And I very much look forward to it.
And I think that will also help usto educate the future leaders.
And we actually do that in Module One: The future of supply chain. (16:18):
undefined
We actually tell them, “it has to change.
You cannot sustain that for yearsto come.” Ken Szymusiak: So
you recently participated in the SpartanBus Tour with President Guskiewicz.
Can you share a bit about your experienceon the tour and what you saw?
Valerii Kucherenko (16:34):
I would say it was a really intensive tour.
The two days we,went all the way to Detroit.
We covered a lot of ground.
We visited a lot of communities,
and what actually struck meis how much MSU gives back
and how much it participatesin the lives of those communities.
And, I think that was the mostrewarding experience, besides the fact
that I had a chance to meetwith more than 50 people from MSU,
(16:56):
all bright and brilliant professionalsfrom all over the place that I've never
met before, I probably would never havehad the chance to meet with them.
It was really rewardingand humbling experience for me.
Quinetta Roberson (17:05):
While on the tour,
did you learn anything that you thoughtcould be applicable to the program?
Valerii Kucherenko: I was actually having a conversation (17:11):
undefined
with one of their colleagueswho is heavily involved in AI,
and it's one of the subjects that railwayindustry is sort of dancing around,
so to say, trying to figure outhow are they going to apply,
if they're going to apply,
is there more value, or is it goingto bring more harm or danger?
I believe we have to embrace AI,
and when we're having
(17:31):
an honest conversation with that person,to consider having a class with us
and bring the subjectof the railway industry, and then
start in on sort of tapping into thisAI opportunities for the railway industry.
Quinetta Roberson: Thanks so much for joining us today, Val. (17:41):
undefined
If listeners want to keep upwith your work, where should they look?
Valerii Kucherenko (17:48):
Number of options.
We've been really pushingthe online presence.
And if you go to raileducation.com,that's our official website.
Or you can go and follow us on LinkedInby just looking
for Center for RailwayResearch and Education or CRRE.
Ken Szymusiak: Thanks so much for being here, Val. (18:02):
undefined
Really appreciate it.
Valerii Kucherenko (18:05):
Thank you. Ken Szymusiak
Follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagramand Facebook
at MSUbroadcollege or visit us on the webat broad.msu.edu/news.
Quinetta Roberson: and remember, like, rate (18:16):
undefined
and subscribe to matters on Apple Podcastsand Spotify.
That does it for this episode.
I'm Quinta Robertson Ken Szymusiak: and I'm Ken Szymusiak.
Join us next time to hear facultyand staff weighing in on relevant issues
and discussing how their workmakes an impact, illuminating how and why
(18:38):
Broad Matters.
Welcome to Broad Matters.
Ken Szymusiak (00:02):
A podcast
bringing you thought leadership,innovative perspectives and real world
impact from Michigan State University'sEli Broad College of Business.
I'm Ken Szymusiak,
managing director
for the Burgess Institutefor Entrepreneurship and Innovation,
Quinetta Roberson: and I'm Quinta Robertson, (00:15):
undefined
the John Hanna DistinguishedProfessor of Management and Psychology.
Today we're joined by Val Kucherenko,the director of the Center
for RailwayResearch and Education at Broad.
Val joined Michigan State Universityin August
2024,taking over the railroad education program
from former director Nicholas Little,who was a previous podcast guest.
(00:38):
In today's episode,we'll dive into the exciting updates
since we last discussed the program,explore
the latest innovations in the industry,and talk about how Broad
graduates are being preparedto lead the future of rail.
Thanks for being here.Valerii Kucherenko: Thank you.
Thank you for having me heretoday. Ken Szymusiak: Val,
let's start by learning a little bitabout your background.
How did you get startedin the railway industry
(01:00):
and what led you to Michigan State?
Valerii Kucherenko (01:01):
Well, first of all, I'm a third generation railroader.
My parents were railroaders.
My grandparents were all railroadersin Eastern Europe.
So when I moved to Canada ten years agowith my family,
there was not a waybut to sort of continue with that destiny.
And I joined the Canadian Pacific KansasCity Railway in Toronto, up in Canada,
and I spent the last six years with themprior to joining MSU.
So it's been quite a fascinating journey.I can tell you.
(01:23):
Prior to that, I spent the last 20 yearsin international supply chain moving
containers,working for the shipping lines.
It was sort of, you know, innatural continuation of that journey.
And after that, I realizedthat I have a strong passion for education
and making sure that there are futureleaders in the railway industry.
And that's why I decided to joinMSU last year.
So I'm happy with the decision.
I have been enjoying every minutefor the last nine months.
Quinetta Roberson (01:45):
Could you tell us about the center for Railway Research and Education?
What are the key goals and prioritiesand who participates in the program?
Valerii Kucherenko: The center itself was founded in 2007 (01:53):
undefined
by the gentleman whose name is EdwardBurkhardt.
He's been around the industry for many,many years, and his idea
was to invest and nurture the futureleaders in the railway industry.
So that's when the centerwas established here with MSU.
And right around that time, the centerdecided to launch the Railway Management
Certificate program.
(02:13):
So it has been aroundfor almost 20 years.
And actually this yearwe are celebrating the 20th anniversary
of the Railway ManagementCertificate program.
Over the years,we've had more than 300 participants
that graduated from the programand the popularity of the program
has been growing overthe last couple of years.
The primary reasonis that we sort of cracked
that idea of pitching this to the audienceand bringing the value
(02:34):
to both the organization,to the participants themselves.
Our participants primarily comefrom the shortline and regional railroads.
Sometimes we have classone hour roads that join us,
and the main ideais to facilitate the growth
and make sure that we provide toolsrequired
for the future leadersin the railway industry,
because it's quite a uniquesince we’re close to industry.
There’snot a lot of folks are actually familiar
with the rail industry and have a tendency
(02:56):
to stay within the industrywithout sort of exposing themselves.
So we pulled them outof this sort of comfort zone
and give them tools and knowledgeto lead the railway industry.
Ken Szymusiak (03:03):
One of the things that's so interesting about the program
is how you bridge academic researchand real world application.
How does the center work with agencypartners, government organizations
and industry thought leadersto educate program participants?
Valerii Kucherenko: Yeah, it's very unique. (03:16):
undefined
I just wanted to highlight that we arethe only center in the North American
railway industry and the education spherethat actually works with leaders.
A lot of universitiesfocus on the technical side,
sort of nutsand bolts of the railway industry.
We have a leadership programthat is very unique
and essentially what we've been doing,
we specifically have been focusingon in-person participation.
(03:37):
The primary reason
is that the only way to learnthe industry is to actually get engaged
and go to different sitesand talk to folks and executives
and learn from them,because they have a lot of experience.
And the only way to learnis not by just going in and listen to the,
you know, executives in the class,but actually get out there
and touch and feel and have conversationswith those executives.
So what we do is that we organizea program for different modules,
(03:59):
and our participantsgo through all of these four modules.
Usually during the week,each module takes up to five days
and they travel from site to site.
Typically we have moduleone here in Lansing, in Michigan,
where we introduce them to the coreskills, the soft skills.
They to go through leadershipnegotiation, strategy classes.
And we also startintroducing them to the railway industry.
We take them on a tour, a one day tourto one of the regional railroads
(04:23):
in Michigan,
and then on module two,and we take them to Washington
and New York, modulethree in Texas, in Colorado,
and the last modulesin Indianapolis and Chicago.
That's where they get exposed.
And really,
you know, learned through thatby having boots on the ground, so to say.
By having conversationswith the executives
that helps them to understandwhat the railway industry is all about,
because it's, you know, you can reallyunderstand that by reading the books.
(04:45):
It helps.
But really the understandingand the knowledge comes from
those conversationsin all classes across the country.
Ken Szymusiak (04:52):
That's really cool.
Just another questionon the demographics, Val.
Are there a lot of folks who join
who are maybe transitioningfrom different industries into rail?
Do you see that happen?
Or is it mostly folks who are,you know, have been hired in the rail,
maybe are just trying to learn and climbthe leadership ranks?
Valerii Kucherenko: Very interesting question, (05:07):
undefined
because I was looking at the numbersliterally last week.
This year we've got participantsfrom two countries,
18 different statesand 24 different organizations.
I would say the majority of themcome from the industry.
A lot of them have spent years and yearsin the railway industry.
An interesting factabout the rail industry: quite often,
especially on the operational side,
there's been years and yearsgrowing within the organization.
(05:30):
Then they get to the point where they needsome sort of formal education
and moral leadership skills,and that's when we come handy.
We help them out, give them a sort of handand provide them with the tools
that give them opportunityto stay within the organizations
and learn from executivesand then prosper as future leaders,
and then become better professionalsand human beings.
Quinetta Roberson (05:48):
Do you find that the participants in the program
lean more freight versus passenger,
or is it kind of equally distributedin the program?
Valerii Kucherenko: Really good question. (05:57):
undefined
I would say that there is normal tendencyto have probably 80 to maybe
90 percent of participants coming fromfreight rail rather than passenger.
And it's a normal distributionbecause majority of 135,000 employees
across the rail industry are involvedin freight rather than commuter rail.
Even though we have a numberof participants coming from New York
(06:18):
and Chicagotransit systems, from Amtrak recently,
and we see, more interestfrom those organizations
because they understandthat the only way to promote passenger
rail is to actually get engaged,to have conversations, those open dialogs
with the freight and rail folks and,sort of promote, commuter rail
among professionals in the rail industry,but also having conversations
with executives and different stakeholderswithin the rail industry helps
(06:41):
to bring that topicto the top of the agenda.
Ken Szymusiak (06:44):
That's awesome.
Thank you.
We've seen a lot of discussionaround the state of commuter and passenger
trains lately,specifically in North America.
Based on your work,what are some of the main challenges
we have here for the commuterand passenger train industry?
Valerii Kucherenko (06:55):
If we look at this from a perspective of North American
market, we're sort of in the same boatversus, say, Asia with Europe.
You know, we have to look at the history.
That all goes back to how markets inthe countries have been developing.
In Europe, there has been a lot of focuson, commuter rail, passenger rail.
And the government has beensignificantly involved over the years.
In North America, we've been primarilyfocused on moving freight.
(07:18):
And historically, private organizations,they've been developing
as freight railways,
but also have had to sort of chip inand contribute to the passenger rail.
And that's been quite oftenconsidered as a burden.
So until 1971,when Amtrak was established
in North America and VIA Rail in Canada,there was no formal organization
that would actually handle or managethe passenger rail across Canada and US.
(07:41):
It was all fragmented, and the differentorganizations have taken it differently.
Some were better.
Others were worse.
That only came to fruitionwhen these two organizations were formed
in two countries that createdthat uniformity across the industry,
and that actually helped to boostpassenger commuter rail in North America.
But given the fact that US and Canadahave been primarily investing in highway
(08:03):
infrastructure, that sort of put us behindin terms of accessibility.
And don't forget about the densityof population in North America
versus Europe or Asia.
There is that culture of car.
And quite oftenwe jump in a car and go somewhere
instead of, you know,taking the public transportation.
So it's ingrained in the culture.
It's hard to change and it takes time.
I would say thatboth Amtrak and VIA Rail in Canada
(08:23):
have been doing a pretty good jobon educating and providing some programs
for commuter rail to become more popular,but I would say it still remains
a challenge.
Quinetta Roberson (08:33):
So Ken asked about the commuter and passenger train industry.
Can you tell us a bitabout how you talk about these issues
in the program, and how participantsare being prepared to address them?
Valerii Kucherenko: There's a tendency in North America, (08:44):
undefined
whenever the subject of rail comes to conversation, it's instantly freight.
Be it containers, rail cars, auto racks.
It doesn't really matter.
It's almost always freight.
What we're trying to do is to injectmore commuter and passenger rail
into the classes and conversations,and we try to balance that as much as
(09:07):
we can by having also executivesand the subject matter experts that talk
not only about freight,but also commuter rail.
We have a number of site visits in Chicagoand Washington and New York
that's specifically tailored towardscommuter rail.
We work with Amtrak, with Metrain Chicago,
with new Jersey Transit in Newark.
And that helps to actually diversifythat sort of subject
(09:29):
of freight rail with a little bitmore of commuter and passenger rail.
It comes naturally, I would say, but stillwe have to have honest conversation
with freight folks,
because there is a natural sortof competition between freight
and commuter rail; because, definitelyin North America, freight takes priority.
You understand. It'sa backbone of North American economy.
And railroad is quite often proud to say,“we move the economy” and I get it.
(09:51):
But the commuter rail, passenger
rail is equally importantbecause if you look at the numbers,
roughly one train takes off the highway260 trucks.
But it's equally importantfor the passenger and commuter rail,
because rail is the most efficient wayof transportation whether it be freight
or passengers by land.
So it doesn't really matter if you'removing passengers or freight that matters.
(10:11):
That actually brings
that subject of emissions and reductionin emissions of CO2 emissions.
Typically in North America,we jump in the car.
Best case scenario would take a bus,but quite rare wethink about alternatives
such as train.
And it's interesting that in many largecities, be it New York, Chicago,
those options are available.
We just don't use them quite often.
Quinetta Roberson (10:30):
Well, I have to tell you, I appreciate the call out.
I grew up on the East Coast,so I’ve taken New Jersey transit.
I rode the subway in Philly.
I took DC Metro.
But then I also think abouttaking the train in other countries
and it is more of an experienceto be on a passenger train.
I was recently in Kyotoand they had the Hello Kitty train.
Ken Szymusiak (10:51):
I saw that. Quinetta Roberson
That's pretty cool.
Quinetta Roberson (10:55):
Yeah. Ken Szymusiak
that the owners of the Orient Express areadding two more luxury lines in Europe.
I know in North Americawe've done a few things.
I really like the Canadian Rockies train,and I think there's a couple
on the West Coast.
But do you see a space where
private industry or hospitality businessbegins to dabble in this space in America?
Is there any movement?
Valerii Kucherenko (11:15):
I would say it's been on the rise over the last decade or more.
The reason being is that definitelythere is that growth of popularity
among the older generation,and they have that feeling,
a notion of taking the trains
as part of the vacation journey,which to me is one of those opportunities
that definitely railroadscan capitalize on.
And as you rightly pointed out, in Canada,they have Rocky Mountains and trains
(11:38):
that are extremely popular.
They have cross-Canada trainsthat actually take you on a journey
for more than five days,and you can actually experience
the entire countryrather than flying from point A to B.
In the US,
there have been a number of trainsthat have been, growing in popularity,
and I think there is definitely a marketfor that.
In Europe and Asia,they've been probably doing a better job
in terms of, you know, making this moreof an experience, as you mentioned out.
(11:59):
And this is the whole point of movingthat towards the new industry
or being a new innovative industry,is that looking at this
from an experience perspective,rather than moving from point A to B.
And that's where I thinkthe growth will come in the future.
Because with human beings,if you look at this
from a perspective of Maslow'sPyramid. Right?
We always look for something elseas we get to a certain level.
(12:20):
And definitely that opportunityof experience in railroads, experience
in the countrysideand actually enjoying it,
that'sdefinitely the next level on that pyramid.
And I believe that'swhere railroads are going with this.
Quinetta Roberson (12:30):
Does the center engage with industries outside of rail
to explore how they might benefit fromor integrate rail transportation
into their operations?
Valerii Kucherenko (12:39):
Yes, we have been engaged
in a number of government organizationsand agencies over the years, and recently
we have been, engagingmore with the nonprofit organizations
who really showcase the railroad industryand what it is
and what it does to the communities,because quite often,
what we hear about the railroadsis when something goes sideways.
But the reality is
that we rely on the railway industrysignificantly in North America.
(13:03):
From a freight perspective,pretty much all the containers.
So the import that comes in Canada or U.S.
comes through one of the ports,
be it from, you know, on the east side
or in the west side,and it doesn't really matter,
because what actually happensthen is that railroads
actually take it on the backand deliver that to the final destination.
Then trucks actually did the last mile.
And that's essentially what I meanwhen I say that railroads are the backbone
(13:24):
because they move cargo.
And if we look at cargofrom a perspective of what it is,
it can be grain, it can be fertilizers,it can be ore, it can be metals,
oil, all of that, most by trainsacross the country, between the countries.
And if you look at the North Americancontinent from prospective countries.
We have three major countriesCanada, U.S. and Mexico.
And a lot of those actually move
between those countries on a daily basis,seamlessly, quite often invisibly to us.
(13:46):
All we hear oftenis the whistles right, of those trains,
but they do a lot of jobbehind the scenes,
and that's what we do when we engagethose agencies and the communities.
We try to explain
and tell the story of what the railwayindustry does behind the scenes.
So I would say, yes, we've been pretty active for the last several years.
Engaged in nonprofit organizationsand government agencies
to bring that perspective
to the communities.Ken Szymusiak: Looking at the broader railway industry.
(14:09):
What do you see as the major trends
that participants will need to be preparedfor in the next 5 to 10 years?
And what are you most excitedabout the future of your program?
Valerii Kucherenko: There are a number of topics, (14:17):
undefined
but obviously I wouldhighlight the motive power
because historically,
if we look backat the history of railroading,
there was a steamthat essentially changed the entire world,
and then the diesel locomotivecame to play.
Diesel electric locomotiveshave been pulling cars for many years
and there hasn't been a lot of change.
But what we see now
is that the industry is going throughone of the major transformations.
(14:39):
There are two major venues that probablythe railway industry will take on.
They are sort of,you know, playing with both of them.
One of them is hydrogen locomotive powerand another one is electric.
And they have advantages and disadvantagesdepending on how you look at it,
from a perspectiveof the length of the haul
and the proximity to recharging stationsfor the major cities.
And one interesting fact isthat the center has been involved in
(15:02):
research that resultedin the launch of the hydrogen passenger
commuter service in San Bernardino,California several years ago.
So I would say this will be the gamechanger in the next probably ten years.
Which way the railways will take it,I don't know.
I don't have a crystal ball.
Both of them have advantagesand disadvantages,
and I think the industrywill settle somewhere in the middle.
There will probably bea combination of both.
(15:22):
Other than that,I would say that visibility.
If you look at the railway industry,it's an integral part of the supply chain.
Even though supply chainhas been advancing over the years.
If you look at the Amazonsand Walmarts of the world, right,
they have visibilitythat actually key, right?
You can essentially track your packageon your phone.
It's not the case in the railway industry.
It's very fragmented in this way.
And I think that will bethe next big thing for the rail industry
(15:44):
to actually embrace the technologyand come up with a solution
that will address the divisibilityaspects of transportation.
Because if I look at thisfrom a perspective, international supply
chain, you can book cargo somewherefrom Asia or in Europe,
and you can get 100% visibilityof where the container is.
But when it hitsthe North American market, quite often
you'll lose that visibility.
And you have to really work hardusing more traditional ways
(16:07):
of calling and emailing,and I think that has to go away.
And I think that'll be a transformationof the industry in years to come.
And I very much look forward to it.
And I think that will also help usto educate the future leaders.
And we actually do that in Module One: The future of supply chain. (16:18):
undefined
We actually tell them, “it has to change.
You cannot sustain that for yearsto come.” Ken Szymusiak: So
you recently participated in the SpartanBus Tour with President Guskiewicz.
Can you share a bit about your experienceon the tour and what you saw?
Valerii Kucherenko (16:34):
I would say it was a really intensive tour.
The two days we,went all the way to Detroit.
We covered a lot of ground.
We visited a lot of communities,
and what actually struck meis how much MSU gives back
and how much it participatesin the lives of those communities.
And, I think that was the mostrewarding experience, besides the fact
that I had a chance to meetwith more than 50 people from MSU,
(16:56):
all bright and brilliant professionalsfrom all over the place that I've never
met before, I probably would never havehad the chance to meet with them.
It was really rewardingand humbling experience for me.
Quinetta Roberson (17:05):
While on the tour,
did you learn anything that you thoughtcould be applicable to the program?
Valerii Kucherenko: I was actually having a conversation (17:11):
undefined
with one of their colleagueswho is heavily involved in AI,
and it's one of the subjects that railwayindustry is sort of dancing around,
so to say, trying to figure outhow are they going to apply,
if they're going to apply,
is there more value, or is it goingto bring more harm or danger?
I believe we have to embrace AI,
and when we're having
(17:31):
an honest conversation with that person,to consider having a class with us
and bring the subjectof the railway industry, and then
start in on sort of tapping into thisAI opportunities for the railway industry.
Quinetta Roberson: Thanks so much for joining us today, Val. (17:41):
undefined
If listeners want to keep upwith your work, where should they look?
Valerii Kucherenko (17:48):
Number of options.
We've been really pushingthe online presence.
And if you go to raileducation.com,that's our official website.
Or you can go and follow us on LinkedInby just looking
for Center for RailwayResearch and Education or CRRE.
Ken Szymusiak: Thanks so much for being here, Val. (18:02):
undefined
Really appreciate it.
Valerii Kucherenko (18:05):
Thank you. Ken Szymusiak
Follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagramand Facebook
at MSUbroadcollege or visit us on the webat broad.msu.edu/news.
Quinetta Roberson: and remember, like, rate (18:16):
undefined
and subscribe to matters on Apple Podcastsand Spotify.
That does it for this episode.
I'm Quinta Robertson Ken Szymusiak: and I'm Ken Szymusiak.
Join us next time to hear facultyand staff weighing in on relevant issues
and discussing how their workmakes an impact, illuminating how and why
(18:38):
Broad Matters.
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