October 6, 2025 • 23 mins
The Broad College of Business is transforming the Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) space in college athletics through Business Teams, a collaboration between Multicultural Business Programs and MSU Athletics that brings together teams of business students to support and coach student-athletes on navigating the NIL landscape. Ed Tillett and Elliott Daniels join Broad Matters to share how Business Teams connects Broad College students with MSU student-athletes. Elliott also highlights how the Sports Business Management Minor uses NIL as an opportunity to better prepare business students for future careers.
Follow Multicultural Business Programs on Instagram and LinkedIn, and find out more information about the Minor in Sports Business Management at the Broad College of Business website.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ken (00:00):
Welcome to Broad Matters.
Quinetta (00:01):
A podcast bringing you thought leadership, innovative perspectives
and real world
impact from Michigan State University'sEli Broad College of Business.
Ken (00:10):
I'm Ken Szymusiak, Managing Director
for the Burgess Institutefor Entrepreneurship and Innovation...
Quinetta (00:15):
and I'm Quinetta Robertson, the John A.
Hannah DistinguishedProfessor of Management and Psychology.
Welcome back to Broad Matters.
Today we're joined by two fantasticguests, Ed Tillett and Elliott Daniels.
Ed is the director of MulticulturalBusiness Programs at Broad.
Ed (00:32):
And in my unit, what we do is we make access and opportunity central
to everything we do.
And that's what Broad does.
Quinetta (00:38):
And Elliot is the Senior Associate Athletic Director
for Michigan State University Athletics,and the lead faculty and director
for the Sports Business Managementminor at Broad. Elliot: Sports business
is a $500 billion industry,and to be able to have a program
in a top business college
where we are centrally located betweensome of the most major sports, college
(00:59):
and professional, truly an opportunitythat students at most places do not have.
Ken (01:03):
In today's episode, we're diving into the world of NIL.
That's “Name, Image and Likeness”
and how it's transforming opportunitiesfor student athletes.
You might not think a business college
would have much to do with NIL,but at Broad it's a natural fit.
From supporting athletes as they navigatebranding and financial decisions,
to preparing business studentsfor careers in the sports industry,
Broad is right at the centerof this exciting new space.
(01:25):
Ed and Elliott,thanks so much for joining us today.
Elliott (01:27):
Thank you for having us. Really a pleasure and a blessing to be here.
Ed (01:29):
Yeah, we appreciate it.
This is going to be fun.
Quinetta (01:31):
So let's start with NIL.
What is it?
What does it mean for student athletes?
And I mean,why is it such a big deal right now?
Elliott (01:40):
Yeah, I think just starting from that standpoint,
if you think of NIL, a lot of peoplesometimes mis pronounce it as nil.
So it's N-I-L, and that stands for “name,image and likeness”.
And what happened prior to July of 2021,about 4 or 5 years ago
now, student athletes, major collegestudent athletes, all student athletes
could not benefit from the useof their name, image and likeness.
(02:02):
So if you think of going to
your favorite bookstore on campusand you see your favorite baseball player
or basketball player or soccer player’sjersey, hanging there.
You didn't see a name on the back,but that jersey could be purchased.
The student athlete of that numberdid not monetize that benefit as well,
even from signing autographs on footballsand basketballs
and baseballs and soccer balls.
They could not make moneyfrom that standpoint.
(02:23):
Through a series of lawsuits.
One is the Ed O'Bannon caseverse the NCAA.
That's something for our listenersto look up.
There was somethingcalled the Austin case versus the NCAA.
And then we also have the House case,right now versus the NCAA.
These are cases that are now passedand the rules have happened.
But the particularly the Ed O'Bannoncase, verse, the NCAA, ruled that the NCAA
(02:43):
was basically making money offstudent athletes
names, image and likenesses, and studentathletes were not being able to do that.
So in July of 2021, those restrictionswere lifted for student athletes.
Other athletes such as our NBA players,basketball players, NFL players
were able to do that already.So this is not something that's new.
It's just what is restrictedfor our college athletes to be able to do
Quinetta (03:02):
Of the cases that you mentioned, I'm
assuming that they were primarily eitherfootball or basketball.
You mentioned the NFL and the NBA.
What's the impact on the lessvisible sports, if you will, or those
that are not football and basketball?Elliott: It’s for everybody, really.
Now the perception is it'sfor men's basketball and football players
because they're the most visibly seensports.
(03:25):
They’rethe ones who probably in most cases
bring in the revenueand the ones that gets the most media
coverage and things like that as well.
But you've had other student athletes
such as volleyball, studentathletes, swimmers,
gymnasts, things like that as well.
Looked at if some of your highest earnerswith NIL in the first few years as well.
The one thing I will say too,and NIL has evolved .
It’s only been four years of this.
So it's still somethingthat people are kind of learning,
(03:46):
you know, to kind of,
you know, you have to play in the sandboxa little bit with it.
Some people are hesitant,some people all in from that standpoint,
but it's evolved in different spacesof what that means to student athletes,
but then also what that meansto our students on campus
for whatthat would be for the professionals,
and then also whatthat means even to businesses,
because they haven't
been able to do this space, particularlywith a college student athlete.
Ken (04:05):
I mean, we've kind of seen the Wild West a little bit as this became unlocked.
It was all sorts of thingshappening in the last four years.
And even different conferencesare making decisions. Right.
The Big Ten had rulesthat the SEC didn't have.
As you see studentathletes come to campus,
how does MSU kind of onboard studentsso they kind of understand
what is this world of NIL?
Is it different, as you see,like five star basketball recruit versus
(04:26):
someone who's trackand field or something.
And then how do you kind of baselineall the athletes to understand
what's available to them.
Elliott (04:31):
I would say this, I think that Michigan State stance
has been that, you know,you want to present this everybody.
Should you want to participate and name
image and likeness,you have the opportunity to do so.
From a practical standpoint,
18 to 22 year olds,they now have to look at contracts.
What does that mean?
What's my responsibility?
What's the payment termsand things like that.
And this is 18 to 22 year olds.
(04:51):
And I would even,you know, just ask a question.
Most of us has probably signeda mortgage, who's read the whole contract?
Ken (04:57):
I didn’t, I'll be honest.
Elliott (04:59):
You have students that are 18 to 22 year olds.
They have to read pages of pages ofcontracts of, you know, sponsorship deals
and legal agreements and what's the termsand things like that as well.
So the first iteration of this was reallyeducation, really saying, hey, you're now
pretty much a young adult that is nowbeing forced to operate in an adult world.
You know, it's not somethingyou get a second chance on.
(05:20):
If you don't meet the terms, you'regoing to be held responsible for that.
And then this switchedjust a little bit too,
how studentscan actually improve their branding.
You have a lot of folkswho thought this was just
a basketball, men's basketballfootball thing.
And I think a lot of studentathletes bought into that, too, of saying,
hey, if I'm not in those two sports,this isn't really for me.
So on and so forth.
So really, I think Michigan State’s
stance has been to kind of takeand teach student athletes.
(05:42):
Everybody has a nicheshould you want to participate
and monetizeyour name, image and likeness.
Ken (05:47):
And you're seeing some of these athletes
for some of the smaller sportsfrom rolling into college,
from high school, with noticeablefollowings already.
The ability to capitalize very quickly.
If you already gota few thousand followers
and now you get the Spartan brand behindyou, that's, that's a lot of fuel.
Elliott (06:01):
Absolutely. When it first came out in 2021,
that was kind of reallywhat people were about.
You get this deal.
You post a tweet here and there and so onand so forth.
It's evolved into,you know, where you seeing student
athletes on commercials with major brandsand sponsorship deals with who.
But a lot of student athletes,particularly the individual sport ones,
if they have a really good following,a really interesting story,
things like that, as well,they tend to do very well.
Quinetta (06:21):
I'm wondering, does it heighten accessibility to education
for those students who maybe don't haveall the resources for school?
They can generate some incomein other ways that give them
the resources that some of their peersat that university would have.
Elliott (06:39):
Well, I think that's a tremendous point.
Most people would think that, you know,
college student athletes,they're all on scholarships.
That's not true.
Probably about 50%
or maybe even less student athletesat most college
campuses are not on some kindof financial assistance.
So NIL actually opens upanother stream for them
should they want to use that moneyfor their cost of education
and books and tuitionand things like that as well.
(06:59):
Should they want to do that.
That actually goes into
also a comprehensive packagenow of what the benefits
are of being a student athleteat said university.
Ken (07:05):
What role
does Broad play now in this NIL landscape,especially here at Michigan State?
Love to hear about the workyou're working on with the business teams.
Ed (07:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
So in Multicultural Business Programs,we're really looking at
how do we support the studentsoutside the classroom?
So we have amazing faculty.
We have amazing, you know, education here.
And so what do we do outside the classroomand how do we support those interests
and those experiences.
I have on my team,shout out to Lauren Aitch-Guerant.
She's an amazing person.
(07:33):
She was a former student athlete hereat Michigan State in women's basketball.
And we were talking about NIL.
And we were talking about this nexus,
you know, that Eliottkind of talked about in terms of like,
now there's this opportunity herefor student athletes.
We know that there's a culture aroundbeing a student athlete
on a college campus.
How do we support thatand what does that look like
and what does that mean?
And how do we put an educational spinon all of this put together?
(07:58):
And we really came up with this ideathat there is an experiential learning
opportunity here for our Broad studentsto take the in-classroom learning
and apply it to real life, real worldproblems, solutions, etc..
And so what we created was business teams.
And that is a lot of studentscoming together.
So we have roughly about 30 to 40 studentsand we've broken them up
(08:19):
into different areas, analyticaland creative and the data aspects of this.
And we're looking athow do we help the student athletes?
And so this is a lot of peerto peer learning as well,
because there's a direct interactionbetween the student athletes and the
Broad students, where they're talkingto each other about how do I brand myself?
How do I market myself,how do I really take this kind
(08:40):
of businesseducation to the next level and apply it?
And it is phenomenal experiencefor not only the students,
but us watching them interactand learn and grow together.
And our students are just absolutelyeating it up and loving it
because it's a great involvementopportunity.
Ken (08:55):
Yeah, it's like a modern case study.
We're so used to these like, hey,we have a partnership with,
you know, insert large Company Xand they're going to give us some project
to work onand we bring it in the classroom.
But the idea of like peers helping peers
and the peers just happen to be studentathletes.
And now their their own businessis a totally interesting place
for them to exploreand consultancy experience and...
Ed (09:15):
Yeah, it's something that, you know, here in Broad,
we talk about the entrepreneurial mindset.
And so what we're doing is we're literallycultivating and growing that within
not only the studentswho are a part of business teams,
but we're also reaching acrossand helping other people
understand that, like,I can be a business in my own entity.
These are 18 to 22 year olds.
They're really navigating a spacethat's very challenging.
(09:37):
They're learning much earlier
that they have a brandthat they can use, that they can leverage,
and that helps them become a professionalbecause they are representing something.
They're representing themselves,
their families, Michigan State,their teams, etc., etc..
Quinetta: So if I use my entrepreneurial mindset (09:50):
undefined
and let's say hypothetically,you had a professor,
at MSU who was a competitive sprinter,might there be a business team
who could help her securean NIL deal? (laughs)
EdL (10:10):
I absolutely love where you’re going with this.
Right? So but that's just it, right?
That's what's at the crux of
this is now there's no limitations onwho is a business.
There's no limit on how you can leverageyour brand as a person, as a professional.
They can utilize their experience,their values, their interest, and align it
(10:31):
with a brand that's out there that maybedidn't think in that way before.
Elliott (10:36):
This gives an opportunity
for the student athleteto see themselves outside of their sport.
They have, you know, interest in story,whether they fish or whether they sow
or whether they are into fashionand things like that as well.
And a lot of people think this is justfor football and men's basketball.
The one of the things that I'll sayis our students in the NIL business teams
program has been able to workwith those student athletes,
but it's really the impactthat they've had around
(10:56):
all of the other athletes as well.
The ones who say, hey,I don't know if this is for me.
I don't know if I have a brand.
I don't knowif I have an interesting story.
It gives opportunity for our nonstudent athletes that are in business
to work with them,to actually realize what that dream is.
So a lot of people are looking for studentathletes
who have excellence on the actual courtand on the field, and on the track,
but they're also looking for peoplewho have like these extraordinary
(11:18):
things that they dooutside of their sport as well, too.
So it makes them realizethat they're much more than an athlete.
That they are a brand.And I'm a brand and I'm a business.
Quinetta: I wanted to dig into these business teams (11:25):
undefined
a bit more to find out what they do,
what's the work that they do on a dayto day, week to week basis.
But then also,if you could give us an example of
maybe some deals that the business teamshave worked on, secured,
etc.Ed: Kind of from the standpoint of the business teams, right?
(11:47):
Like I said, we have about,you know, roughly 30 to 45 students.
Every year we've been growingthat we've been doing this right.
So at first nobody knew what NIL is.
And now we've grownand so we've split these students up
into kind of, creativeas well as analytical teams,
and they're able to think creatively aboutwhat does this mean for brands,
how do brands alignwith some of our student athletes.
(12:10):
And then our analytical sideis looking at the numbers side of things.
Right.
And so they're looking at types of otherdeals exist out there for students
that are like this
or at this caliber, or you know,what are some of the social media numbers
that a student athlete might haveand how do they grow that?
And what kind of growth has occurreddue to a deal
that has existed for this studentor that they've entered into?
(12:33):
And so they're really focusing on applyingthose classroom learnings around that.
To give you a little bitmore of the sauce.
We've been building out profiles
for our student athletes to help themunderstand what their brands are.
And our studentsare working on these profiles.
So they're combing through,you know, a student athlete’s experience,
and they're looking atwhere are they from,
what are their interests,what are their hobbies?
(12:56):
How do they align with certain brands?
Because you might have a student
athlete who's a little bit more outdoorsyand they're kind of edgy,
and so they might fit a company in a brandthat is a little bit more edgy.
There are some that are a little bit more,
you know, small town, maybe very familyoriented or something of that nature.
And so what brands they fit with?
And our students are looking atand combing through different brands
(13:19):
and seeing where those alignmentsand how are those fitting.
And so then onceall of that comes together,
there's opportunities for a studentto sit in on a meeting
almost kind of pitching a student athleteto some of these brands.
That student can sit in thereand they can elaborate on, Here's
what we saw, here'swhat we heard from an intake conversation
or intake meeting with this studentathlete.
(13:40):
It's a way for those students
in the business college to really takeall the things that they've learned
from marketing, from finance, etc.,to really put it together
and put it in play with these profiles,with these brands, with these athletes.
We are doing NIL in this kind of industryin this realm is being called Real NIL
(14:00):
because it's not just transactional,but it's much more transformational.
There's a meaning behind it.
And so that'swhat we are really focusing on now is
how do we make thisas most meaningful as possible?
How are we aligning brands values
and putting meaning behindwhat we're trying to do?
And that's what our studentsare really sitting
at the crux of isthey're helping meaningful things happen
(14:24):
with various brandsand making that connection.
We've had some really fun ones
that we've gotten to do thathave been really, really interesting.
You know, one is with United Dairy ofMichigan and our business team students.
And so this is where that cultivation
of questioning and interviewinghas really kind of come out.
They found a tennis player here on campusand he was lactose intolerant.
(14:46):
We said, this is a great opportunityfor you to demonstrate
how some of your productcan serve a population
that would probably write you offinitially because they just hear dairy
and they walk away.
And he has had a phenomenaloutpouring of just interest.
And his social media posts are amazing.
(15:07):
It's been fun to really kind ofwatch him grow with that brand.
Ken How does this position Michigan Statefrom an athletics department perspective?
We look at our peers nationally.
Are there other people
trying to do similar arrangementsthat you're seeing like this,
or is this kind of a unique thingat Michigan State?
Elliott (15:22):
At least to our knowledge, we're the only school that has a program
right here that is putting togetherstudents, helping encapsulate them
and actually realize their brandsand things like that as well.
The students in the business
teams are getting
experience of saying, hey, how do I workwith actually on field talent?
And I don't think anybody is doing that.
Here at Michigan State, we have studentsthat actually are working with on field
(15:43):
elite athletes.
Preparing them for careersand as agents and beyond.
So I think that's tremendous.
And I don't know anybody elsethat’s doing that.
Quinetta (15:50):
Elliot, you are the director of the Sports Management minor at Broad.
How does this program connectto NIL and student opportunities?
Elliott (15:57):
The cool thing about this is that when this idea came from Lauren
and Ed and their team,
and they've done a tremendous jobof putting this together, we had a minor
that was in the College of Businessalready.
We're actually celebrating our 10th yearthis year.
One of the things that made this minorvery appealing,
not only to Michigan State,but also the College of Business, is
where we're located.
We're right in the middleof some of the best sports in the country.
(16:21):
So if I want to work in pro sports,we have our Detroit sports,
we have Grand Rapids,we have Lansing, Chicago, Indianapolis,
Cleveland, the NCAA National officeliterally in Indianapolis.
And it's 3.5 hours from us,the Big Ten Conference office in Rosemont.
It's about roughly four hours from us,but we're a powerful institution
and the best conference in the countryat the best school in the country.
The one thing that those companies
(16:41):
are going to look at is,have you worked with talent?
You know, out of oursome of our counterparts
around the country,
we're the only program as a minorthat has an internship requirement.
And that's just really step one.
I tell students all the time,if you really want to do this,
need to have 5 to 7undergraduate experiences
in sport to make yourself more marketable,to be in this industry.
And students get to actually workwith real on field talent.
You don't see that opportunityanywhere else.
(17:03):
And that's whythe business teams internships work.
We probably,he said, 30 and 40 students added,
we probably supply probably at least 30%of those students through the minor,
so they realize that this opportunityis fun
to really do thatand dig into their background,
whether that's in finance,
advertising, branding, marketing,and they can apply that to actually
working with a real life person. Ed: That's the fun part, right?
We're at the cutting edge of somethingthat's really, really special.
(17:24):
NIL is young. It is very, very young.
And we are providing an opportunityfor these students to get an experience,
and then they're able to use thaton a resume.
They're using that in conversationswith employers at career fairs
to talk about here's what I've done,here's what I'm capable of.
And they can show real time resultsand what they've been working on.
Ken (17:44):
Elliott,
you mentioned, kind of this mix of studentexperiences and student interest,
I guess when they joined the minor,is it kind of an even mix of students
in terms of ones who are interested
in marketing and financeand HR and player development?
When you're bringing folks into the minor,are you looking to create a mix or is it
they kind of sort themselves out
once they're in thereand they kind of find what calls them?
Elliot (18:03):
Talking to sports business industry leaders, they'll tell you
that they want professionalswho have a passion and also are experts
in their field of interestthat know sport.
That's who we're looking for,
and that's whowe want to supply the industry
with as welland create the next level of leaders.
The minor is open to all the majorsin the College of Business.
We have other majors as welltoo, outside of the college of business.
(18:23):
So it's kind of
an interdepartmental programthat is housed here that we created here.
But we made available to several majorsin Comm Arts, a few majors
in the College of Social Sciences,and then also kinesiology as well.
And even if you're not a part of thosemajors, you can make a case for yourself.
If I'm a math major and I said, hey,you know,
I think that I can be in analytics,
we want to make sure that that studenthad an equal opportunity
(18:45):
to make a case for themselvesin the minor itself as well, too.
So that was very importantfor us to do that.
Ken (18:50):
Looking ahead, what do you think NIL means for students, universities,
and the sports industry, overall?
Elliott (18:56):
NIL is still fairly new.
Four years into its inception,and it continues to evolve.
It's opened a new channel
for professional opportunitiesand I think that is going to be cool.
I think that, you know, you're startingto see where athletic departments
in other places are highering positionsin NIL with NIL in mind,
whether that's general managersor whether that's brand executives.
(19:16):
So these will be opportunitiesfor students
that maybe come out of the business teamsto consider.
There's a lot of career pathsthat you can go and college
athletics, but,you know, there's creative aspects of it
too, that are being addedjust for you to actually manage
the student athletebrand part of it as well, too.
It's continuing to evolve,but we'll see that from that standpoint.
And then the second piecethat I would say for a student
athlete is going to continueto evolve for them as well too.
(19:39):
One of the things that you brought upearlier,
Ken, I think, just to go backto, different states had different laws.
Right.
And I think as we kind of look at things,
there'sgoing to be different spaces and places
where they're tryingto look at uniformity,
where Michigan doesn't have a state lawand California has this on state law,
and you can do this in Michigan,but you can't do that in California.
So I think that'sone of the things that will be looked at
from just even from a legaland a law standpoint of like what
(20:02):
the brackets look like.
Not restricting student athletes,but somewhat protecting them, making sure
that they can maximize opportunity,
but also do it in a way that createsequal opportunity for everyone.
Ed (20:11):
You know, along those lines, right, NIL has reached into other sports.
That's making sure
that our student athletes,you know, the Title
IX guidelines, making surethat those things are being upheld
so that opportunities for femalesin sport is being supported.
It's being acknowledged,is being encouraged.
And then I think the experiencefor the student athlete,
(20:33):
how is this moneybeing used to set them up in the future?
There are student athletes
that are using some of their moneyto buy franchises now,
and so that's a totally different doorthat's being opened up.
You know, for someone who came to collegeat 18 to 22 years old thinking, you know,
I'm coming to play a sport,
next thing you know, they're walking awaywith a franchise in a business
and they're opening up doorsfor opportunities in ways that maybe
(20:57):
they didn't even dream of at first.
And so those thingsare starting to happen.
There are so many different things
and directions that this can take,but I think that for our student athletes,
the money earned herethrough NIL helps with everyday things.
It's not just students out herebeing fashionably
irresponsible and driving fancy cars.
(21:19):
It doesn't mean thatthose things don't exist,
but those are a little bitmore of the anomalies.
This NIL money is typically used foris basic needs stuff.
We talk about books.We talk about some of those things.
And that's what this is being used for.
It's student athletessupplementing their living
experiences with the moneythat they're earning through this.
(21:41):
And it's helping them to live a little bitmore comfortably.
It's about how do we educateour incoming student athletes to learn
and navigate some of the things that arein the world outside of higher education.
We talk about contracts.
We talk about personal brands.
We talked about
how do you espouse your values in a waythat's meaningful, and how do you navigate
(22:01):
all of that at a very earlyyoung age, in a very high profile world.
Michigan State
University is an amazing university,and we have amazing athletes here.
And they tend to get a lot of visibilitywith the things that they do
because of it.And so how do we help them navigate that?
That's education at the end of the day,how to be better people.
How to be better business leaders.
(22:22):
And that's what this is really focused on.
Elliott (22:23):
It can be transformational for not only our student athletes,
but for studentsto really get these experiences as well.
The whole full experience of whatthat looks like, of helping each other
learn while they're in campus,getting experiences
that they need, and create an experiencethat everybody can benefit from.
Quinetta (22:38):
Well, thank you both for joining us today.
If listeners want to keep upwith your work, where should they look?
Ed (22:44):
MBP is on Instagram.
We are @mbp_msu.
You can find us on Instagram.
You can also find us on LinkedIn.
Broad Multicultural Business Programs. Elliott: Absolutely.
And I was direct people to the Broad website,
Sports Business Management minor is heldin the Management department.
And you can learn all the informationthere as well,
such as contactinformation, student group,
which is our Future Leadersin Sport and Entertainment
(23:06):
and the wonderful workthat they're doing as well, too.
All things sports business management.
Ken (23:09):
Well, thanks so much for being here, guys.
Ed and Elliot (23:11):
Thank you.
Ken (23:13):
Want more news and insights?
Follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagramand Facebook @MSUBroadCollege
or visit us on the webat broad.msu.edu/news.
Quinetta (23:26):
And remember, like, rate and subscribe
to Broad Matters on Apple Podcastsand Spotify.
Ken (23:32):
That does it for this episode.
I'm Ken Szymusiak - Quinetta: and I'm Quinetta Roberson.
Join us next time to hear facultyand staff weighing in on relevant issues
and discussing how their workmakes an impact, illuminating how and why
Broad Matters.
Welcome to Broad Matters.
Quinetta (00:01):
A podcast bringing you thought leadership, innovative perspectives
and real world
impact from Michigan State University'sEli Broad College of Business.
Ken (00:10):
I'm Ken Szymusiak, Managing Director
for the Burgess Institutefor Entrepreneurship and Innovation...
Quinetta (00:15):
and I'm Quinetta Robertson, the John A.
Hannah DistinguishedProfessor of Management and Psychology.
Welcome back to Broad Matters.
Today we're joined by two fantasticguests, Ed Tillett and Elliott Daniels.
Ed is the director of MulticulturalBusiness Programs at Broad.
Ed (00:32):
And in my unit, what we do is we make access and opportunity central
to everything we do.
And that's what Broad does.
Quinetta (00:38):
And Elliot is the Senior Associate Athletic Director
for Michigan State University Athletics,and the lead faculty and director
for the Sports Business Managementminor at Broad. Elliot: Sports business
is a $500 billion industry,and to be able to have a program
in a top business college
where we are centrally located betweensome of the most major sports, college
(00:59):
and professional, truly an opportunitythat students at most places do not have.
Ken (01:03):
In today's episode, we're diving into the world of NIL.
That's “Name, Image and Likeness”
and how it's transforming opportunitiesfor student athletes.
You might not think a business college
would have much to do with NIL,but at Broad it's a natural fit.
From supporting athletes as they navigatebranding and financial decisions,
to preparing business studentsfor careers in the sports industry,
Broad is right at the centerof this exciting new space.
(01:25):
Ed and Elliott,thanks so much for joining us today.
Elliott (01:27):
Thank you for having us. Really a pleasure and a blessing to be here.
Ed (01:29):
Yeah, we appreciate it.
This is going to be fun.
Quinetta (01:31):
So let's start with NIL.
What is it?
What does it mean for student athletes?
And I mean,why is it such a big deal right now?
Elliott (01:40):
Yeah, I think just starting from that standpoint,
if you think of NIL, a lot of peoplesometimes mis pronounce it as nil.
So it's N-I-L, and that stands for “name,image and likeness”.
And what happened prior to July of 2021,about 4 or 5 years ago
now, student athletes, major collegestudent athletes, all student athletes
could not benefit from the useof their name, image and likeness.
(02:02):
So if you think of going to
your favorite bookstore on campusand you see your favorite baseball player
or basketball player or soccer player’sjersey, hanging there.
You didn't see a name on the back,but that jersey could be purchased.
The student athlete of that numberdid not monetize that benefit as well,
even from signing autographs on footballsand basketballs
and baseballs and soccer balls.
They could not make moneyfrom that standpoint.
(02:23):
Through a series of lawsuits.
One is the Ed O'Bannon caseverse the NCAA.
That's something for our listenersto look up.
There was somethingcalled the Austin case versus the NCAA.
And then we also have the House case,right now versus the NCAA.
These are cases that are now passedand the rules have happened.
But the particularly the Ed O'Bannoncase, verse, the NCAA, ruled that the NCAA
(02:43):
was basically making money offstudent athletes
names, image and likenesses, and studentathletes were not being able to do that.
So in July of 2021, those restrictionswere lifted for student athletes.
Other athletes such as our NBA players,basketball players, NFL players
were able to do that already.So this is not something that's new.
It's just what is restrictedfor our college athletes to be able to do
Quinetta (03:02):
Of the cases that you mentioned, I'm
assuming that they were primarily eitherfootball or basketball.
You mentioned the NFL and the NBA.
What's the impact on the lessvisible sports, if you will, or those
that are not football and basketball?Elliott: It’s for everybody, really.
Now the perception is it'sfor men's basketball and football players
because they're the most visibly seensports.
(03:25):
They’rethe ones who probably in most cases
bring in the revenueand the ones that gets the most media
coverage and things like that as well.
But you've had other student athletes
such as volleyball, studentathletes, swimmers,
gymnasts, things like that as well.
Looked at if some of your highest earnerswith NIL in the first few years as well.
The one thing I will say too,and NIL has evolved .
It’s only been four years of this.
So it's still somethingthat people are kind of learning,
(03:46):
you know, to kind of,
you know, you have to play in the sandboxa little bit with it.
Some people are hesitant,some people all in from that standpoint,
but it's evolved in different spacesof what that means to student athletes,
but then also what that meansto our students on campus
for whatthat would be for the professionals,
and then also whatthat means even to businesses,
because they haven't
been able to do this space, particularlywith a college student athlete.
Ken (04:05):
I mean, we've kind of seen the Wild West a little bit as this became unlocked.
It was all sorts of thingshappening in the last four years.
And even different conferencesare making decisions. Right.
The Big Ten had rulesthat the SEC didn't have.
As you see studentathletes come to campus,
how does MSU kind of onboard studentsso they kind of understand
what is this world of NIL?
Is it different, as you see,like five star basketball recruit versus
(04:26):
someone who's trackand field or something.
And then how do you kind of baselineall the athletes to understand
what's available to them.
Elliott (04:31):
I would say this, I think that Michigan State stance
has been that, you know,you want to present this everybody.
Should you want to participate and name
image and likeness,you have the opportunity to do so.
From a practical standpoint,
18 to 22 year olds,they now have to look at contracts.
What does that mean?
What's my responsibility?
What's the payment termsand things like that.
And this is 18 to 22 year olds.
(04:51):
And I would even,you know, just ask a question.
Most of us has probably signeda mortgage, who's read the whole contract?
Ken (04:57):
I didn’t, I'll be honest.
Elliott (04:59):
You have students that are 18 to 22 year olds.
They have to read pages of pages ofcontracts of, you know, sponsorship deals
and legal agreements and what's the termsand things like that as well.
So the first iteration of this was reallyeducation, really saying, hey, you're now
pretty much a young adult that is nowbeing forced to operate in an adult world.
You know, it's not somethingyou get a second chance on.
(05:20):
If you don't meet the terms, you'regoing to be held responsible for that.
And then this switchedjust a little bit too,
how studentscan actually improve their branding.
You have a lot of folkswho thought this was just
a basketball, men's basketballfootball thing.
And I think a lot of studentathletes bought into that, too, of saying,
hey, if I'm not in those two sports,this isn't really for me.
So on and so forth.
So really, I think Michigan State’s
stance has been to kind of takeand teach student athletes.
(05:42):
Everybody has a nicheshould you want to participate
and monetizeyour name, image and likeness.
Ken (05:47):
And you're seeing some of these athletes
for some of the smaller sportsfrom rolling into college,
from high school, with noticeablefollowings already.
The ability to capitalize very quickly.
If you already gota few thousand followers
and now you get the Spartan brand behindyou, that's, that's a lot of fuel.
Elliott (06:01):
Absolutely. When it first came out in 2021,
that was kind of reallywhat people were about.
You get this deal.
You post a tweet here and there and so onand so forth.
It's evolved into,you know, where you seeing student
athletes on commercials with major brandsand sponsorship deals with who.
But a lot of student athletes,particularly the individual sport ones,
if they have a really good following,a really interesting story,
things like that, as well,they tend to do very well.
Quinetta (06:21):
I'm wondering, does it heighten accessibility to education
for those students who maybe don't haveall the resources for school?
They can generate some incomein other ways that give them
the resources that some of their peersat that university would have.
Elliott (06:39):
Well, I think that's a tremendous point.
Most people would think that, you know,
college student athletes,they're all on scholarships.
That's not true.
Probably about 50%
or maybe even less student athletesat most college
campuses are not on some kindof financial assistance.
So NIL actually opens upanother stream for them
should they want to use that moneyfor their cost of education
and books and tuitionand things like that as well.
(06:59):
Should they want to do that.
That actually goes into
also a comprehensive packagenow of what the benefits
are of being a student athleteat said university.
Ken (07:05):
What role
does Broad play now in this NIL landscape,especially here at Michigan State?
Love to hear about the workyou're working on with the business teams.
Ed (07:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
So in Multicultural Business Programs,we're really looking at
how do we support the studentsoutside the classroom?
So we have amazing faculty.
We have amazing, you know, education here.
And so what do we do outside the classroomand how do we support those interests
and those experiences.
I have on my team,shout out to Lauren Aitch-Guerant.
She's an amazing person.
(07:33):
She was a former student athlete hereat Michigan State in women's basketball.
And we were talking about NIL.
And we were talking about this nexus,
you know, that Eliottkind of talked about in terms of like,
now there's this opportunity herefor student athletes.
We know that there's a culture aroundbeing a student athlete
on a college campus.
How do we support thatand what does that look like
and what does that mean?
And how do we put an educational spinon all of this put together?
(07:58):
And we really came up with this ideathat there is an experiential learning
opportunity here for our Broad studentsto take the in-classroom learning
and apply it to real life, real worldproblems, solutions, etc..
And so what we created was business teams.
And that is a lot of studentscoming together.
So we have roughly about 30 to 40 studentsand we've broken them up
(08:19):
into different areas, analyticaland creative and the data aspects of this.
And we're looking athow do we help the student athletes?
And so this is a lot of peerto peer learning as well,
because there's a direct interactionbetween the student athletes and the
Broad students, where they're talkingto each other about how do I brand myself?
How do I market myself,how do I really take this kind
(08:40):
of businesseducation to the next level and apply it?
And it is phenomenal experiencefor not only the students,
but us watching them interactand learn and grow together.
And our students are just absolutelyeating it up and loving it
because it's a great involvementopportunity.
Ken (08:55):
Yeah, it's like a modern case study.
We're so used to these like, hey,we have a partnership with,
you know, insert large Company Xand they're going to give us some project
to work onand we bring it in the classroom.
But the idea of like peers helping peers
and the peers just happen to be studentathletes.
And now their their own businessis a totally interesting place
for them to exploreand consultancy experience and...
Ed (09:15):
Yeah, it's something that, you know, here in Broad,
we talk about the entrepreneurial mindset.
And so what we're doing is we're literallycultivating and growing that within
not only the studentswho are a part of business teams,
but we're also reaching acrossand helping other people
understand that, like,I can be a business in my own entity.
These are 18 to 22 year olds.
They're really navigating a spacethat's very challenging.
(09:37):
They're learning much earlier
that they have a brandthat they can use, that they can leverage,
and that helps them become a professionalbecause they are representing something.
They're representing themselves,
their families, Michigan State,their teams, etc., etc..
Quinetta: So if I use my entrepreneurial mindset (09:50):
undefined
and let's say hypothetically,you had a professor,
at MSU who was a competitive sprinter,might there be a business team
who could help her securean NIL deal? (laughs)
EdL (10:10):
I absolutely love where you’re going with this.
Right? So but that's just it, right?
That's what's at the crux of
this is now there's no limitations onwho is a business.
There's no limit on how you can leverageyour brand as a person, as a professional.
They can utilize their experience,their values, their interest, and align it
(10:31):
with a brand that's out there that maybedidn't think in that way before.
Elliott (10:36):
This gives an opportunity
for the student athleteto see themselves outside of their sport.
They have, you know, interest in story,whether they fish or whether they sow
or whether they are into fashionand things like that as well.
And a lot of people think this is justfor football and men's basketball.
The one of the things that I'll sayis our students in the NIL business teams
program has been able to workwith those student athletes,
but it's really the impactthat they've had around
(10:56):
all of the other athletes as well.
The ones who say, hey,I don't know if this is for me.
I don't know if I have a brand.
I don't knowif I have an interesting story.
It gives opportunity for our nonstudent athletes that are in business
to work with them,to actually realize what that dream is.
So a lot of people are looking for studentathletes
who have excellence on the actual courtand on the field, and on the track,
but they're also looking for peoplewho have like these extraordinary
(11:18):
things that they dooutside of their sport as well, too.
So it makes them realizethat they're much more than an athlete.
That they are a brand.And I'm a brand and I'm a business.
Quinetta: I wanted to dig into these business teams (11:25):
undefined
a bit more to find out what they do,
what's the work that they do on a dayto day, week to week basis.
But then also,if you could give us an example of
maybe some deals that the business teamshave worked on, secured,
etc.Ed: Kind of from the standpoint of the business teams, right?
(11:47):
Like I said, we have about,you know, roughly 30 to 45 students.
Every year we've been growingthat we've been doing this right.
So at first nobody knew what NIL is.
And now we've grownand so we've split these students up
into kind of, creativeas well as analytical teams,
and they're able to think creatively aboutwhat does this mean for brands,
how do brands alignwith some of our student athletes.
(12:10):
And then our analytical sideis looking at the numbers side of things.
Right.
And so they're looking at types of otherdeals exist out there for students
that are like this
or at this caliber, or you know,what are some of the social media numbers
that a student athlete might haveand how do they grow that?
And what kind of growth has occurreddue to a deal
that has existed for this studentor that they've entered into?
(12:33):
And so they're really focusing on applyingthose classroom learnings around that.
To give you a little bitmore of the sauce.
We've been building out profiles
for our student athletes to help themunderstand what their brands are.
And our studentsare working on these profiles.
So they're combing through,you know, a student athlete’s experience,
and they're looking atwhere are they from,
what are their interests,what are their hobbies?
(12:56):
How do they align with certain brands?
Because you might have a student
athlete who's a little bit more outdoorsyand they're kind of edgy,
and so they might fit a company in a brandthat is a little bit more edgy.
There are some that are a little bit more,
you know, small town, maybe very familyoriented or something of that nature.
And so what brands they fit with?
And our students are looking atand combing through different brands
(13:19):
and seeing where those alignmentsand how are those fitting.
And so then onceall of that comes together,
there's opportunities for a studentto sit in on a meeting
almost kind of pitching a student athleteto some of these brands.
That student can sit in thereand they can elaborate on, Here's
what we saw, here'swhat we heard from an intake conversation
or intake meeting with this studentathlete.
(13:40):
It's a way for those students
in the business college to really takeall the things that they've learned
from marketing, from finance, etc.,to really put it together
and put it in play with these profiles,with these brands, with these athletes.
We are doing NIL in this kind of industryin this realm is being called Real NIL
(14:00):
because it's not just transactional,but it's much more transformational.
There's a meaning behind it.
And so that'swhat we are really focusing on now is
how do we make thisas most meaningful as possible?
How are we aligning brands values
and putting meaning behindwhat we're trying to do?
And that's what our studentsare really sitting
at the crux of isthey're helping meaningful things happen
(14:24):
with various brandsand making that connection.
We've had some really fun ones
that we've gotten to do thathave been really, really interesting.
You know, one is with United Dairy ofMichigan and our business team students.
And so this is where that cultivation
of questioning and interviewinghas really kind of come out.
They found a tennis player here on campusand he was lactose intolerant.
(14:46):
We said, this is a great opportunityfor you to demonstrate
how some of your productcan serve a population
that would probably write you offinitially because they just hear dairy
and they walk away.
And he has had a phenomenaloutpouring of just interest.
And his social media posts are amazing.
(15:07):
It's been fun to really kind ofwatch him grow with that brand.
Ken How does this position Michigan Statefrom an athletics department perspective?
We look at our peers nationally.
Are there other people
trying to do similar arrangementsthat you're seeing like this,
or is this kind of a unique thingat Michigan State?
Elliott (15:22):
At least to our knowledge, we're the only school that has a program
right here that is putting togetherstudents, helping encapsulate them
and actually realize their brandsand things like that as well.
The students in the business
teams are getting
experience of saying, hey, how do I workwith actually on field talent?
And I don't think anybody is doing that.
Here at Michigan State, we have studentsthat actually are working with on field
(15:43):
elite athletes.
Preparing them for careersand as agents and beyond.
So I think that's tremendous.
And I don't know anybody elsethat’s doing that.
Quinetta (15:50):
Elliot, you are the director of the Sports Management minor at Broad.
How does this program connectto NIL and student opportunities?
Elliott (15:57):
The cool thing about this is that when this idea came from Lauren
and Ed and their team,
and they've done a tremendous jobof putting this together, we had a minor
that was in the College of Businessalready.
We're actually celebrating our 10th yearthis year.
One of the things that made this minorvery appealing,
not only to Michigan State,but also the College of Business, is
where we're located.
We're right in the middleof some of the best sports in the country.
(16:21):
So if I want to work in pro sports,we have our Detroit sports,
we have Grand Rapids,we have Lansing, Chicago, Indianapolis,
Cleveland, the NCAA National officeliterally in Indianapolis.
And it's 3.5 hours from us,the Big Ten Conference office in Rosemont.
It's about roughly four hours from us,but we're a powerful institution
and the best conference in the countryat the best school in the country.
The one thing that those companies
(16:41):
are going to look at is,have you worked with talent?
You know, out of oursome of our counterparts
around the country,
we're the only program as a minorthat has an internship requirement.
And that's just really step one.
I tell students all the time,if you really want to do this,
need to have 5 to 7undergraduate experiences
in sport to make yourself more marketable,to be in this industry.
And students get to actually workwith real on field talent.
You don't see that opportunityanywhere else.
(17:03):
And that's whythe business teams internships work.
We probably,he said, 30 and 40 students added,
we probably supply probably at least 30%of those students through the minor,
so they realize that this opportunityis fun
to really do thatand dig into their background,
whether that's in finance,
advertising, branding, marketing,and they can apply that to actually
working with a real life person. Ed: That's the fun part, right?
We're at the cutting edge of somethingthat's really, really special.
(17:24):
NIL is young. It is very, very young.
And we are providing an opportunityfor these students to get an experience,
and then they're able to use thaton a resume.
They're using that in conversationswith employers at career fairs
to talk about here's what I've done,here's what I'm capable of.
And they can show real time resultsand what they've been working on.
Ken (17:44):
Elliott,
you mentioned, kind of this mix of studentexperiences and student interest,
I guess when they joined the minor,is it kind of an even mix of students
in terms of ones who are interested
in marketing and financeand HR and player development?
When you're bringing folks into the minor,are you looking to create a mix or is it
they kind of sort themselves out
once they're in thereand they kind of find what calls them?
Elliot (18:03):
Talking to sports business industry leaders, they'll tell you
that they want professionalswho have a passion and also are experts
in their field of interestthat know sport.
That's who we're looking for,
and that's whowe want to supply the industry
with as welland create the next level of leaders.
The minor is open to all the majorsin the College of Business.
We have other majors as welltoo, outside of the college of business.
(18:23):
So it's kind of
an interdepartmental programthat is housed here that we created here.
But we made available to several majorsin Comm Arts, a few majors
in the College of Social Sciences,and then also kinesiology as well.
And even if you're not a part of thosemajors, you can make a case for yourself.
If I'm a math major and I said, hey,you know,
I think that I can be in analytics,
we want to make sure that that studenthad an equal opportunity
(18:45):
to make a case for themselvesin the minor itself as well, too.
So that was very importantfor us to do that.
Ken (18:50):
Looking ahead, what do you think NIL means for students, universities,
and the sports industry, overall?
Elliott (18:56):
NIL is still fairly new.
Four years into its inception,and it continues to evolve.
It's opened a new channel
for professional opportunitiesand I think that is going to be cool.
I think that, you know, you're startingto see where athletic departments
in other places are highering positionsin NIL with NIL in mind,
whether that's general managersor whether that's brand executives.
(19:16):
So these will be opportunitiesfor students
that maybe come out of the business teamsto consider.
There's a lot of career pathsthat you can go and college
athletics, but,you know, there's creative aspects of it
too, that are being addedjust for you to actually manage
the student athletebrand part of it as well, too.
It's continuing to evolve,but we'll see that from that standpoint.
And then the second piecethat I would say for a student
athlete is going to continueto evolve for them as well too.
(19:39):
One of the things that you brought upearlier,
Ken, I think, just to go backto, different states had different laws.
Right.
And I think as we kind of look at things,
there'sgoing to be different spaces and places
where they're tryingto look at uniformity,
where Michigan doesn't have a state lawand California has this on state law,
and you can do this in Michigan,but you can't do that in California.
So I think that'sone of the things that will be looked at
from just even from a legaland a law standpoint of like what
(20:02):
the brackets look like.
Not restricting student athletes,but somewhat protecting them, making sure
that they can maximize opportunity,
but also do it in a way that createsequal opportunity for everyone.
Ed (20:11):
You know, along those lines, right, NIL has reached into other sports.
That's making sure
that our student athletes,you know, the Title
IX guidelines, making surethat those things are being upheld
so that opportunities for femalesin sport is being supported.
It's being acknowledged,is being encouraged.
And then I think the experiencefor the student athlete,
(20:33):
how is this moneybeing used to set them up in the future?
There are student athletes
that are using some of their moneyto buy franchises now,
and so that's a totally different doorthat's being opened up.
You know, for someone who came to collegeat 18 to 22 years old thinking, you know,
I'm coming to play a sport,
next thing you know, they're walking awaywith a franchise in a business
and they're opening up doorsfor opportunities in ways that maybe
(20:57):
they didn't even dream of at first.
And so those thingsare starting to happen.
There are so many different things
and directions that this can take,but I think that for our student athletes,
the money earned herethrough NIL helps with everyday things.
It's not just students out herebeing fashionably
irresponsible and driving fancy cars.
(21:19):
It doesn't mean thatthose things don't exist,
but those are a little bitmore of the anomalies.
This NIL money is typically used foris basic needs stuff.
We talk about books.We talk about some of those things.
And that's what this is being used for.
It's student athletessupplementing their living
experiences with the moneythat they're earning through this.
(21:41):
And it's helping them to live a little bitmore comfortably.
It's about how do we educateour incoming student athletes to learn
and navigate some of the things that arein the world outside of higher education.
We talk about contracts.
We talk about personal brands.
We talked about
how do you espouse your values in a waythat's meaningful, and how do you navigate
(22:01):
all of that at a very earlyyoung age, in a very high profile world.
Michigan State
University is an amazing university,and we have amazing athletes here.
And they tend to get a lot of visibilitywith the things that they do
because of it.And so how do we help them navigate that?
That's education at the end of the day,how to be better people.
How to be better business leaders.
(22:22):
And that's what this is really focused on.
Elliott (22:23):
It can be transformational for not only our student athletes,
but for studentsto really get these experiences as well.
The whole full experience of whatthat looks like, of helping each other
learn while they're in campus,getting experiences
that they need, and create an experiencethat everybody can benefit from.
Quinetta (22:38):
Well, thank you both for joining us today.
If listeners want to keep upwith your work, where should they look?
Ed (22:44):
MBP is on Instagram.
We are @mbp_msu.
You can find us on Instagram.
You can also find us on LinkedIn.
Broad Multicultural Business Programs. Elliott: Absolutely.
And I was direct people to the Broad website,
Sports Business Management minor is heldin the Management department.
And you can learn all the informationthere as well,
such as contactinformation, student group,
which is our Future Leadersin Sport and Entertainment
(23:06):
and the wonderful workthat they're doing as well, too.
All things sports business management.
Ken (23:09):
Well, thanks so much for being here, guys.
Ed and Elliot (23:11):
Thank you.
Ken (23:13):
Want more news and insights?
Follow us on LinkedIn, X, Instagramand Facebook @MSUBroadCollege
or visit us on the webat broad.msu.edu/news.
Quinetta (23:26):
And remember, like, rate and subscribe
to Broad Matters on Apple Podcastsand Spotify.
Ken (23:32):
That does it for this episode.
I'm Ken Szymusiak - Quinetta: and I'm Quinetta Roberson.
Join us next time to hear facultyand staff weighing in on relevant issues
and discussing how their workmakes an impact, illuminating how and why
Broad Matters.
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