Episode 428: Who is to Blame for the Yankees Loss?

EJ, Rob and Scott discuss the disaster that was Game 5, then preview the offseason.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Night, joined by Rob Hanson's Good Evening Robin Scott Moss. Hello, guys,
Hello guys. The Yankees lost. That sucks, Yank, He's lost.
It was not a fun game. Five, we're gonna talk
about it. Then we're gonna talk about the offseason, which
is here. The World Series is over, which means that
all of the five day after the World Series, clauses

(00:37):
start triggering. Options are happening, Qualifying offers are happening. We're
gonna have free agency like tomorrow, like Ron Soto is
on the free agent market right away. We got lots
to talk about, But first we got to go over
the game. Rob, you and I were texting during the game.
There was a point during that game where we were
discussing Game six, right. We were saying, like, yeah, they're

(00:57):
gonna play in game six. You know, the Yankee could
win two straight. That's not that's not crazy. And then
it all went wrong. So how how how did you
react to that terrible fifth inn it?

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh, it was the biggest guts punch, not because it
wasn't just the fifth inning collapse itself, because you have
to figure like, like what's the baseline. It wasn't like
it was a zero zero tie. The entire time we
were up five. Nothing we had gotten. We had done
to Jack Flaherty in his second start what we wanted

(01:29):
to do to Jack Flarherty in his first start, which
was get to him quick, drive up his pitch count,
drive him some runs, and hit him hard. And he
was out before the end of the second inning.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
And the Dodgers had to use their good relievers because
they used all their bad relievers in the game before.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
That's right, and uh, Judge hit a home running the
World Series Chisholm back back to back off off of him,
Stanton continued his amazing offseason for the Yankees, and then
the bottom of the order pushed across another run. This
is great. We're riding high. We are Mount Everest. We're
like you said, I'm looking you know, I committed in

(02:05):
some sense, the same error that the Yankees did. The
only difference is I wasn't the one playing in the game.
I'm looking ahead, right, I'm thinking of Game six, and
I'm like, oh, we got this, Garrett Coles on the mound,
he's blank and he's got zero's up there, and then
error error, error, and then before you know it, what
felt like an insurmountable lead for the Dodgers to overcome

(02:28):
was gone in a flash. It was it was. It
was a plane crash. I felt like I got hit
by a truck. I got felt like like I got
pushed out a window. I got felt felt like you
know that I was drowning. It was horribly depressing, and
I think, you know, I God, you know it. I
felt it right because we've seen this team all year long,

(02:50):
and we've seen seen this team do this sort of
thing before, and seeing it happen in the World Series
when they were up and we were thinking, man, I
got a hole again. They came alive yesterday, we were
going to do it, and then they they just handed
it right back to the Dodgers.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
It was.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
It was terrible.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Scott, You're you got a little more agent wisdom than
Rob and I do. Do you remember it wears this
rank on the list of postseason disappointments for you, believe
it or not. I am just barely old enough to
remember the nineteen eighty one World Series, and the nineteen
eighty one World Series was just seen as it was

(03:28):
a good punch. I remember. I mean, I didn't have
any deep analysis because nobody followed baseball with deep analysis
at that time, but the Yankees had been seen as
kind of an unstoppable juggernaut. I mean, yes, they got
knocked out in the playoffs, but they'd been in three
World Series recently, one, two, and you know it feels
like that. You know, you expected a lot more of them.

(03:50):
They were favored going in, if barely probably, and they
just I don't know if they got a played the
route managed. And you know, I agree with what you
wrote fun fact about this World Series? Do you know
what the Yankees got outscored by Want twenty five to
twenty four, which supports the idea that this wasn't inevitable

(04:10):
to lose four to one when you basically score the
same runs as the other guys. You lost some close games,
you lost some winning more games, and I think they
blew this one. I want to talk about the like
the chronic problems that we I think are all agreeing on,
but I always start with a more general question for
both of you. So did was the twenty twenty four

(04:32):
season a successful season? Do we chalk this up in
the in the good column?

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Robbie, First, I'm going to try and be optimistic and say, yes,
I'm going to chalk this up to the good column.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
We did get the World Series, we did win a
game in the World Series, and we stumbled at the end.
Ninety four wins, Judge was close to sixty home line again.
Wan Soa had a fantastic season. Luke Weaver emerged as
a real future closer, if not current closer for the Yankees.

(05:09):
And you know, I don't want to go full kind
of classic George Steinberner Yankees and say it's World Series
or bust. If it's not the World Series, it's a
total abject failure to do the Will Ferrell Ricky Bobby routine.
You're either first or your last. I don't want to
quite go that far. It's not a success, but I

(05:30):
don't think i'd chalk it up to a failure if
you get with my sense.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
All right, Scott, same questions. It was a failure. I
think that I was excited. They were the best team
in the American League. They were basically tied with the
Dodgers's best team in baseball, pretty evenly matched. The reason
I see it was a failure is there are a
lot of individual successes, but we learned that look in
the World Series. It's two good teams, right, There aren't
stinkers in the World Series, so bad managing will kill

(05:59):
you because you're evenly matched. There are a lot of
close games both because you have good teams and they're even
the match. So I think we learned in a weird,
more depressing way that the Yankeest could be the best
team in baseball or tied for it. And I don't
have any faith in them to ever win a World Series.
It's not World Series or BUS. But I do not
just think this team can win a World Series with
Aaron Boone managing it. And maybe Cashman is part of

(06:21):
it too, but I put more of it on Boone.
It's almost if the Dodgers were clearly a better team.
I think, well, we got as far as we could.
That was a success. I think it's a failure because
they could have won it or at least put up
in even fight, and they didn't. They rolled over with
band managing. I think, yeah, I want to talk about
the managing like I'm sympathetical to both of what you

(06:43):
what you guys just said, so what is like, I
don't think that World Series or BUSS can be a standard,
because because that means that twenty nine teams aren't successful,
and it's just not that's not that's not reality, right,
we know that that's not how that works. But I
think that more than any year I can remember, the
Yankee were successful due to make a very small pool
of players. This year, Right, you had Aaron Judge with

(07:05):
one of the best seasons of all time, the best
right handed season of all time, probably Juan Soto with
one of the best Yankee seasons ever. If it wasn't
for Judge, I think this would have been the best
hitting Yankee season in like forty years. And then a
little bit of pitching right the bro Penn was good

(07:26):
in the playoffs. John Carlos Stanton put up an incredible
performance in the playoffs, Garret Cole put up a really
strong playoffs, and really not a lot else, no other
real standouts, at least over the course of the full season.
There were some people who did well in a small sample,
and to me, that is that is such a missed opportunity, Right, Like,
the Yankees did the bare minim minimum that you could
do when you're getting twenty wins out of two players,

(07:50):
and I just I feel like you know, you can't
count on Judge and Soda, even if you resigned Soto
to be worth twenty wins next year. And so there's
something still seriously wrong with the team. And frankly, they
got through a really weak American League and then got
beat by a better team than the Dodgers, and and
it hurts. You know, this wasn't you know, even though

(08:10):
the games were close. I mean, the Yankees were the
Yankees were there. They were just clearly the worst team
watching watching them play against the Dodgers, and that just
that hurts. So like, I don't want to overreact to
a loss. I don't want to be Steinbrenner like fire
people for no reason. But I think that Cashman and
Boone have to be fired, and I and I want

(08:30):
to kind of go go through them one by one. Rob,
you sent me a quote from a New York Post
article that I want to read and then get both
of your reactions to this. This is referring to quote
unquote fundamentals, and fundamentals can mean a lot of things,
but in this series, it meant based running in defense
and quote. What the Dodgers told their players in scouting
meetings was that the Yankees were talent over fundamentals that

(08:54):
if you run the bases with purpose and aggression, the
Yankees will self inflict harm, as was exposed by bets
at Men, Freemen, et cetera. That the value was very
high to put the ball in play and make the
Yankees execute. They mentioned that the Yankees were not just
the Major's worst base running team by every metric, but
the difference was vast between them and the Padres, who
the Dodgers beat in the Division Series, but were also

(09:15):
impressive in this In this area, they were thrilled by
at how short Yankee leads were at first base and
potentially less of a threat on pivots at second, where
Gavin Lux does not excel. They said. Their metrics said
had the Yankees is the worst positioned outfield. They were
amazed at how many relay throwers came skittering skittering through
the infield with no one taking charge, and how often

(09:36):
Jazz Chios and Junior, for instance, was out of place
or just standing standing in a play, standing while a
play was still in action. To me, like that is
an indictment of Aaron Broom. Like that is that is
the most damning thing I could see somebody, right. This
is from Joel Sherman. Doesn't mention his sources, but I
think Joel Sherman's pretty well sourced. Rob.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
What's your reaction, I very much agree with you. I
think that is a damning indictment of the not the decisions, right,
It's not necessarily like the decisions to bring in this reliever,
bringing that believer, but it is an indictment of how
the clubhouse is run, how the organization is run, what

(10:22):
they preach, what they practice, and it just goes to
show you the Dodgers see what everyone else, every single
Yankee fan who followed this team all year saw, which
was bad base running, bad defense, bonehead plays, no sense
of urgency in certain situations, no ability to do what

(10:44):
looked like like regular baseball things. I remember thinking last
year or years prior, where the Yankees felt like an
overall good baseball team, and this year it didn't feel
that way in a sense, like you were mentioning a
moment ago, the Yankees had success off really two bats, right,
you had Judge, you had Soto, and then when when

(11:07):
he was healthy, a little bit of Stanton mixed in
there for the most part, and then when Austin Wells
got hot for a little while. And what the Dodgers
said in that what that what?

Speaker 1 (11:17):
What?

Speaker 2 (11:17):
What that story is sourced saying I think truly came
to fruition in in in game five.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
And also in Game one with labor Tours booting that
ball that relay throw from the outfield on Otani's double,
what was in the bottom of the eighth that that
that let Otani get the third, that then let Otani
score when Bets hit the fly ball to deep center.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Some of this, though, is not going to be fully
on Boone, because what's Boone going to say to Aaron Judge,
you got to catch that ball. What's Boon going to
say to Volpi, you gotta make that throw, make that catch?
What's he going to say to Rizzo? Necessarily in the moment,
they still got to execute some of those like for Judge,
Like Judge doesn't make a ton of air, so like that.
Clearly you see he was looking someplace else when that

(12:03):
ball was just about out his glove. You can kind
of see his eyes that were looking at the infield
where he was going to throw it. He wasn't focused
on the ball that maybe was a momentary lapse. But
stuff like with Rizzo, we saw that throughout the season.
Stuff with Glabor Torres, we throw that the years for
years for that. And as great as Jazz Chisholm is,
at times, you know like yeah, like sometimes you see

(12:25):
him and he's he's not in position, he's kind of
watching a little bit too much. That is an indictment
on the team that not play hard nosed baseball.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Scott, your reactions basically agree. I think my unified theory
of Aaron Boone now is that he's a very nice
guy to a fault. He's a weak boss, a week leader.
He goes on emotions rather than thinking, and you do
that when you're a nice guy who fears making someone angry.
It's a weak person's nice guy, a nice guy out

(12:55):
of fear. That's why you play veterans over the young guys,
because the veterans have been there all year, and you'll
make other veterans mad because they like Doogie or something
if you bench him in favor of somebody else. And
that's why you don't do base running drills that would
prevent the ridiculous embarrassment of two guys being caught in
a run down between second and third in the same inning.

(13:16):
I think it was or consecutive. It's all a blurnout.
But you know they haven't done those drills. And why
because the veterans don't want to do those drills and
you don't want to upset them because you're a nice guy,
and you know, I think Aaron Judge and look Gast,
I think is a lot of it. I mean, when
a guy is still a talented hits the ball five
hundred feet but is swinging and missing and a little

(13:37):
slow there, I think. You know you're not giving the
guy days off because he's a veteran. He wants to play.
And why do you bring in Nestor Cortez after thirty
seven days off when it's very foreseeable his command will
be off when he doesn't have the best stuff and
you have guys on two on, guys on base, but
you know he's a gamer, and boy, the fact that
Nestor is coming back at less than one hundred percent

(13:59):
makes me want to play over the guy who's one
hundred percent because I in my room and he's a
nice guy and I have known him for years, whereas
Tim Will haven't known much. I mean, it's so consistent
that he's a weak man who acts on emotions without
giving it much thought, and he goes off feelings and
fear being disliked. He's like the Michael Scott of the
Yankees as a manager. And you know, I don't think
this team can win with this guy managing it.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Part of me wonders, if you don't mind, just let
me just thought. Part of me wonders, if you know,
look every it seems to me, every kind of manager
style I think just has a shelf life with a
particular organization. You've got the hard nosed guy who's really
on top of everybody, and he really gets results because

(14:42):
the players don't want to want to get bench, they
don't want to piss off the off the coach. But
after a while, the vets are there. The guy's there
for a while and it really wears on you. So
you get rid of the guy who's a hard nose
and you bring the guy who is a player's guy,
right and who now has a bunch of guys who
are conditioned to be for that hard nose reaction. But
they don't get that from you, right, you know, you know,

(15:04):
they get the softer kid gloves and that that gets
some more out of them because like now they don't
feel that weight, they don't feel that stress and there,
and they can kind of play a little bit more
easily and they're not gonna be chewed out every every
five minutes for probably mundane stuff. But then eventually, right
the nice you know, the Aaron Boone style, eventually, you know,
leads to other guys. It gets baked in and you

(15:26):
you know, and and they don't and and like Scott
was saying, you know, they don't run the drills as
much because the vets don't like it, and he wants
to be liked a little bit more and he's a
player's guy. And then eventually that kind of builds and
builds upon himself season after season, and then you get
play like this. And Aaron Boone might be an overall
pretty good manager for for his style, for what he does.
He's got a good mind for it. He's he's been

(15:48):
with baseball for his entire life. But it just might
be that his style just has has an expiration date
and we're passes at this point and it needs to
bring something and you need to bring somebody else.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, I think you're totally right, and it reminds me
of years ago. I was friends with his Jesuit priest
who was on the faculty with me, and there's a
new pope being named. He said, you know the saying,
after a thin pope, you want a fat pope. And
I didn't get what you meant. What are you saying?
Is that exactly what you said, Rob, which is that
after a certain point, someone's been in power for a while,
their strengths you got as much out of as he

(16:19):
can and the weakness has become crisis level. So you
need someone who maybe is a different set the other
thing you do. And I don't want to get into work,
but I run a place now and I know my weaknesses.
I'm not the most organized guy. You know what I do.
I make sure I have some number twos who are
organized as hell. If Aaron Boone were a little more
self aware, he'd have a bench coach who's kind of
a dick, and you know, push the drills and tell

(16:42):
the guy he's getting a day off or something. I've
seen that work. I once worked for really nice boss
who had a hell on wheels number two. You know
it's a little chicken, but you know it's less chicken
than what Aaron Boone is doing, but you have to
be a little more self aware, I think than Boone
is for that, and you have to be willing to
like back it up, Like it's not just like being
mad at players, it's like them. I think about a
Josh Donaldson for two years who was playing with zero hustle,

(17:06):
who was losing doubles because he wasn't legging out home runs,
like it was just fundamentally unsound. A lot of this
we observe with base running and defense because we can
we can see it. I wonder how much of it
extends to hitting, Like how much of how many shortcuts
are the Yankees taking in terms of basic hitting? Are

(17:27):
they doing the drills that they would need to do
in order for Anthony Volpi to become a really selective hitter.
Are they willing to say bench a player who's not
participating in those drills, who isn't isn't doing things right?
Like I wonder what behind the scenes were missing. These
are clearly like hard working professionals, Like I don't think
that's really what's going on, but I think that they're

(17:47):
focusing on the wrong things and they are you know,
they're not like having that drilled into them the way
that like I think Girardi drilled into players, Like I
don't remember any of this stuff happening even during the
back giority teams. Yes, I mean, this is not a
talent problem. If the Yankees just had bad defense because
they got a bunch of slow sluggers, like whatever, you

(18:09):
can't do anything about. That's not Ampoom's fault. He's not
gonna make you know, whatever, He's not gonna make uh,
thirty eight year old Derek Jeter be able to play
defense again, Like that's that's not how that works. But
the Yankees have a bunch of guys who are better
than this, or at least should be better than this,
and it's frustrating. I mean, the bay the base running.

(18:29):
It wasn't just the World Series, like the Guardian Series
had a bunch of dumb base running errors. The Kansas
City Series had both base running on defensive errors. And
the Yankees overcame it in part because like John Carlos
Stanton had one of the best postseasons ever and those
other teams just weren't that good. But once, once you
actually go up against a good team, and in future

(18:49):
MLB seasons, there'll be more than one good team, right,
There'll be teams that are are you one hundred plus
win teams? Because that's just how this works. The Yankees
just don't have a chance, like like unless they they
they themselves become that kind of elite team. You know,
there's a ceiling to how good you can be under
the way the Yankees are currently flowing. So I think
you guys both want to talk about and there's something

(19:10):
where you said that I want to follow up on it,
something like it's not that these guys are lazy, it's
how they're being led. And I think that's right because
these guys are hard workers. But hardworking veterans probably won't
do base running drills on their own and that's really learnable.
And we say they're bad at base running. It's not
because some guys are slow, because if you're slow, you
should probably be less likely to be caught in a
rundown because you're not going to try to take the

(19:32):
extra base. It's not that they're slow. Some guys are slow,
some guys aren't. It's the drills and the fact that
their weaknesses are most coming up in proportion to things
that are learnable through boring drills like base running, first, defense,
SID and hitting probably third. You know, I mean it's
funny because as a boss, I'm maybe a little prone
to being like Boone and not normally mister you know,

(19:52):
tough guy on things. But there's a point where someone was,
you know, not interested in one part of the job.
I thought it was really important, and I literally said
to him, you get either do all the job or
none of the job. And I think that's what you
should have said that Donaldson. You can either hit field
and run the bases or do none of it. And
you're not running the basis and got right, Like then
then you got a bench. And you know, even if

(20:13):
it means benching a player for an inferior player for
a little bit, right, like like even if I was
waltda Cabrera is not as good as Josh Donaldson, I
think you gotta you gotta let him play for Josh Donaldson.
Like I think, I think that's the only way you
can solve this. And if if you're if it's the
play the playoffs are too late to make that change, right, like,
like by the time time by the time you get
to the playoffs, like you have baked in whatever focus,

(20:35):
there's detail problems you have, you're not gonna do do
drills and October or like extra drills. But you know,
I get the sense that the Dodgers were doing those
all year, right. I see stories of Luki Beck's like
taking extra infield the entire year because he was playing
short stop most of the year. You know, the last
thing you'll say on the management front is that you

(20:56):
hit it with you do it, even if it's Josh Donaldson,
I'll go further. It's a better example if you do
it to an established superstar. I mean, that's an opportunity
when Donaldson screws up, you make an example out of him,
because there's some medium talent guy who's saying, where hell
Donaldson can still hit at least a little bit, and
his track record, if Buno bench him, he'll sure as
heck bench me. Right. It's frankly an opportunity to make

(21:18):
an example of someone because you don't have to binge
everybody if you show you bench one guy, even an
important guy. But Boone doesn't have it in him to
do it for anybody.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Rob Robins, Yeah, you know, just and it's not that
this is you know, like physics, like you know, like
you know, you push it down when it falls over.
But the one time I can think of the entire
season where Aaron Boone, you know, held a guy accountable
and benched him was Glaber Torres right when Glaber what

(21:46):
was it was? It didn't run out a single or
a real bonehead defensive plague, and they had that little
kind of caught on camera moment where Glaber walks up
to him. It's likely and kind of like confused and booms, No,
I told you know, I'm gonna paraphrase, but my you know,
I'm sure that the conversation was something like, no, Glabor,
I told you, you know, we were gonna watch you.

(22:08):
And if you boot the ball, you do that again,
you're you're you're sitting I'm putting somebody else in four
you on us. And then that was a wake up
call for Glabor, and he was pretty good for the
stretch and now and then he you know, kind of
grew into the leadoff role.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
So that was August third, right, which is right before
Glabor Torres turns it on.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Right, And and again, you know, I can't say for
certain that that in and of itself was what caused
Labor to turn it on. I wouldn't you know, it
makes sense, right, you know, like like you know, like
oh GEEZU like, okay, yeah, I got bench. Okay, yeah,
now I'm embarrassed. Now I've really got a you know,
I'm a little crestfallen. Like no one gets benched by
Boone and I got benched. Oh my god, to Scott

(22:47):
what you were talking about benching the superstar. It reminded
me of a story I recall and this is not
Baseball overlaid, but read Auerbach for the Celtics something some
story where uh he said to Bill Russell, you know
that the team wasn't playing well, and he basically, you know,
Bill Russell's you know, the amazing center Hall of Famer.

(23:10):
What do you like nine or ten rings? I think
our buck yelled at Bill Russell, chewing mount in front
of all the whole team. And now the whole team goes,
oh geez, like, you know, Red's he's John Bill Russell,
Oh my god, like you know, he's like the best
guy you know, and then that you know, and that
and they use But he knew what he was doing
in part. He knew that if everyone thought he was
willing to do that to Bill Russell, you know, like, Okay,

(23:31):
what's he gonna do to me? Oh he really means it. Yeah,
let's you know, let's all play together. They needed something
like that. They needed you know. Now, look, I don't
think Judge had any of those situations during the year
where he didn't hustle, he didn't do this or that,
so over the same thing. Uh, but you know, so
you might not have had that opportunity with the twenty
twenty four Yankees, uh, to kind of like you know,

(23:51):
oh yeah, you know, Aaron, You're you're not hustling. You
got to sit this game, and you know, and like
Volt being all the other guys like you know, you know,
get all get all scared, but but you got you
gotta hold guy speak to the fire fire basically, and
they did go for it.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
One fellow up is that this isn't even about hustle,
but Stanton. My theory of Stanton and playoff Stanton being great.
You know what it is, It's that Stan when he
gets two out of five days off, isn't his beaten
up or bruised or you know, sore and he's great.
This is why Stanton a couple of times has been
good in April then trickles down. You know, yes, he

(24:26):
didn't get hurt, that's this year, and that's great. But
he tailed off a bit and he wasn't great. But
I don't think it's rocket science that a guy who's
been brittle and held it together most of the year
without getting hurt still wasn't was worse when he played
every day than when he played with a lot of
days off in the playoffs. You know that tells me
though A good manager knows that and gives Stanton some

(24:47):
random days off. The Rockies did that with Charlie Blackman,
by the way, who had the same thing. He's old,
but he held it together when he got some random
off days. He did not like it, but he accepted
it because the manager isn't a cream buff. And I
think that's an example like I don't know if that's
what's going on with Judge when he slowed down the
end and seems haggard in the series and playoffs. But

(25:09):
you know, it's entirely possible that a big thirty something
guy who played center field all year. This is the
age when guys who play center field and have a
lot of experience move out of center field. I think
he might have been gassed. And you know, I think
not telling it's not about benching people for attitude. When
you tell Stanton or Judge you're great, you need a
day off, No, we don't skip, Yeah you do, you're
sitting right. He wouldn't do that, and that could be

(25:30):
why Judge was slow, and you know, maybe that's part
of it. So a couple of things. So the Torres
benching was a clear inflection point in his season. Before that,
he had been slumping. I had a six sixty six
ops on the season. After that benching incident, he had
a seven to ninety ops really and immediately hit two
hits in the next game, right, So like immediately you

(25:51):
see a massive change. I think that. I think why
I think about rast I will think about Anthony Volpi, Right,
Anthony volp be was really terrible in the second half
of the season, and then for the playoffs looked like
a completely different player. I mean, look, he looked incredible.
He was I think the best defender on that field

(26:11):
all year and was incredible defender for the most part
during the playoffs, and he was more selective, he was
hitting more power. At the Big Grand Slam, he was
the hero of that game. I I wonder if if
Doopie should have been rested a little bit more, And
I don't know why why he wasn't, Like I think
oz about al Cabrera could have played a little bit
more short and that would have been nice, especially against

(26:32):
the tough righty And and give be a few days
off and maybe he's uh, you know, he's fresh throughout
the year and it's much more productive. Those are the
two notes. To respond to what you guys said, I
want to add another complaint about Boone and ask I'll
ask you guys what you think. There's whenever I hear
Boone being interviewed, I'm always kind of paying attention to

(26:54):
his like his the way he talks about young players,
because I'm very skeptical that Boone is is someone who
can develop young players. Very few young players have come
up under him, right, So he was hired when and
in the second year of Sanchez and Judge, so they
didn't come up under him. Taurus was already up at
that point. And then there's Volpi and Wells. Wells had

(27:16):
a good year of Vopie is still kind of struggling
to hit, but Wells also had a slump at the
end of the year. And whenever he talks about like,
you know, why isn't Vopie trying this, Why isn't he
trying that? Why did it take a chicken palm dinner
to fix all that kind of stuff, his answer is
always some version of like, he's got to figure that out,
that out himself, that being a baseball professional is the

(27:38):
process of becoming a mature coach of your own of
yourself or figuring out your own systems. And I just
think that's wrong, Like, I don't I don't think that's
how other teams do this. I think other teams are
much more proactive and trying to fix their players who
aren't playing well. And it really feels like the Aaron

(28:00):
Boone Yankees philosophy. And I don't know how much of
this is Boon, how much of this is cash mean
is their veterans. They'll figure it out, And I think
you're setting yourselves up for failure at that point. It's
a good point, and I think gets said and thought
of that, but I think it's also consistent with my
theory that if you're organizing theory of life subconscious or not,
is I want to be liked. I want to be

(28:21):
their buddy, and I don't want to say anything or
do anything that will make them unhappy. You know, you'll
convince yourself that you're doing it right. Right, someone as
a real hard ass boss convinces themselves that the world
is tough love and that's what they need from me
and the answers they need to chill out of it,
and you know Boone's probably convinced himself of that that
they need to figure it out. Well, you know what,
that's also very convenient that that's your theory of managing.

(28:44):
Let him play and see what happens if you don't
like telling a guy to stop doing something or do
something different, because they might not like it, and they
might not like you, and they might not be your buddy.
So I think it's very consistent with what I was thinking.
So yeah, I agree, all right, Rob. How much of
this is Boone? How much of it is Brian Cashman?

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Uh, I'm gonna I would probably put it sixty forty
on Cashman. I don't think they are completely inseparable. I
think they're they're kind of of a kind piece in
a pod in a sense. They they brought Boone in
I think specifically for that being kind of a kind

(29:25):
of a guy to kind of fit into the system. Right.
This was this was a few years after I think
George passed. This was now Cashman's team. He was gonna
mold it and how he thought they they brought I
think Boone in as part of that. And I think
I put a little bit more on cash from because
it does but it seems like an organizational issue, and

(29:46):
they brought Boone in to be that kind of kid
gloves type of type of manager. So I don't think
you can separate them, but I put a little bit
more on Cashman. The roster moves to pick to kind
of who's going to be on the roster and setting
the tone for other things like the analytics and all

(30:07):
that stuff that we've that we've all talked about for
the past several years, you know, wondering about the non
action at trade deadlines, the questionable actions at trade deadliness.
That's got to beyond cash more than Boone.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Scott. What do you think. I still like Kashman. I
know he takes a lot of hits and I read
your article about firing Boone and Kashman. Agree on the Boone,
disagree with the Kashman. I think that the critiques of
Kashman are mostly either minor or blaming him for things
that are kind of diffuse in the organization. And you
can say the buck stops with him, but they don't

(30:42):
seem to be calls he made. It seems like maybe
it's a cultural problem, so maybe they benefit from new
blood when there's an inertia and a malaise in the
organization and maybe a laziness about change. But I also
wonder whether I give him some of the blame for Boone,
because when Kashman's answered, every problem is trust the process,
not the outcome. I wonder if, you know, if there

(31:04):
came to be a discussion about firing Boone because we
needed to change a pace. I wonder if he thinks
that he's next, maybe because you know, preserving a culture,
and you know, Cashman tells the Stein Runners go with
loyalty to your guy, trust the process. Nothing's really wrong,
Like the scenario in which Cashman agrees to fire Boone
is one where you're accepting that you need changes in leadership,

(31:26):
like Rob said, maybe just a different direction or accepting
that maybe there's in bed. This is not just Hey,
we consistently of ninety plus win teams, and stuff happens
and we're fine. Everything is fine. So I wonder if
there's a little bit of I think I place some
guilt on him because why he's a smart guy, because
I have a high opinion of him. Hire the most.
I was like, why is he still employing Boone? And
I wonder if you just self protection because if Boon's

(31:48):
fired and things don't get better, he's next. I think
Cashman has internalized the baseball's a crapshoot logic too much,
like that a lot of the stuff we're talking about
is just random, random noise. It doesn't really matter. And
I just think that I think, you know what I've
forgotten about this in the past. I think cash Men's

(32:10):
Yankees make decisions like a a bad statistics student. And
what I mean by that is they they don't really
seem to understand that there's like another They understand what

(32:32):
they're measuring, and they probably can't measure quote unquote fundamental
as well, and so they rely on what they can measure,
not to make this about an election, But I think
there's some election prediction, very famous election prediction people. Right now,
we're making the same mistake where they they there's a
lot of stuff out there they can't measure, and they
just ignore it and assume it's random and there's nothing

(32:53):
they can do about it, and they focus on what
they what they can capture with statistics. And that is
wrong because it's not because because you're capturing less than
you think you are. You know, I'm I'm not going
to tell people not to use analytics. I'm that's not
I'm a political scientist, that's not. That's what I not
what I do. But I think that there's like a

(33:15):
there's a side of the game, like you know, are
you going to make the relay throw that doesn't show
up in the fielding stats that that just isn't appreciated
on that level. That matters, and it's free, right. I
get a sense that Cashman is okay with the Yankees
not doing all their drills because whatever, that doesn't matter
that much. Let's not tire Mike my veterans out. I

(33:38):
also think that Cashman probably thinks this is a resounding
success right the season he got to Game five of
the World Series. That's really really good and and I
just don't I don't sense the compete level from him.
I would love watching Derek Jeter on the panel for
Fox Sports. I thought, I think Jeter is the one
of the best panelists I've ever seen, because he has

(34:01):
this intensity to him still that you just don't see.
You don't see with Ortiz and a Rod right, like
Jeter just has this this thing, and Posada had it
during Old Timer's Day and any Pett and Marianna Rivera
when they talk about winning, like you can just see
them like in that like crazy mode. And I just
don't get the sense that Cashman has that as he

(34:23):
wouldn't after thirty years of doing the same job. My
solution here and I don't think this is gonna happen.
I don't think there's enough time for it to happen.
Is fire Cashman and I want Derek Junior to be
my president Baseball Operations. The Giants just did this with
Buster Posey. They made Buster Posey the top guy. They're
gonna find him a general manager to do the day
to day stuff. I think Derek Jier is one of

(34:46):
those people who I think would bring that level of
intensity to like every layer of the organization, all this
stuff we don't see, the player development, the advanced scouting.
I got the sense he did that with the Marlins,
and the reason why he left was because they didn't
want to go as as he did. They didn't want
to spend money, and he said, screw that on if
we're not going to try to win on out. I

(35:08):
kind of think Derek Jeter would be really good at this.
My concerns about hiring a franchise legend to do a
job that you ultimately will be fired for one day,
But I'll deal with that in ten years. Right for now,
I think he is the guy for it. I don't know.
Do you guys think I'm crazy a little bit? Yeah?
I mean I agree with the concept, which is that

(35:29):
you're convincing any of that. Maybe. While I think Cashman
has been a really good GM, he's the sort of
guy who, weirdly, maybe he should be fired and should
be immediately picked up by someone else. Oh, he definitely
got a job. Oh right, and he should. I think
he think he's really good. But it's possible, going back
to Rob's point, you can outlive your usefulness and then
your weakness is and his weaknesses are a little bit

(35:49):
of I think you put it hit the nail on
the head. There's a fatalism. I did a bunch of
things right, so shrugged that it didn't work out. Not
is there anything we got to do to get an
extra inch next year? Like the fact that there we
both know there's not gonna be in spring training. We're
doing Dan based running drills every day, right, Like the
fact that that's not gonna happen is an indictment of

(36:12):
Cashman as much as Boon at this point. So guess
you know Boone's doing some stuff wrong. That's Boone's fault
of first, it's Cashing's fault for letting it go on.
So yeah, maybe they do need someone new we Ultimately
Boone's failures are Cashmans failure, yes, yeah, and maybe he
took a point for them to be a parent. But
I think they're pairent enough now, so maybe you're I
think you're right, all right. I don't want to belabor
this for too long, and I want to talk about

(36:33):
some other players, So I want to do a quick
round of, uh, you know, a semi quick round of
has this guy played his last game in New York.
So let's just go let's start with the big guy.
We're gonna talk about all of these guys at length
in future episodes. But Rob has won. Soto played his
last game in New York.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
Uh, I'm gonna say, yeah, he has. I'm gonna say
yeah he has. I think there's gonna be some teams
out there that offer him, uh, really big money. The
Yankees have shown reticence to offer really big like like
to kind of go the extra scept for a lot
of other guys.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
And I'm thinking guys like and this one's an odd example,
I know, but Blake Snell. They lost out on Yamamoto,
they lost out on a couple of guys like that. Yes,
obviously they did Cole And yes, obviously they did Judge.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
They weren't the high bidders on Judge.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, And and I don't think I think, you know,
listening to Juan Soto after after Game five and everything,
you know, you know, I'm you get in the sense
that he might be he's he's gonna play the market.
You know, I think he's not.

Speaker 1 (37:41):
I don't think so. I think if my here's my
theory of one. Soon he hasn't a team in his
head say I want to play there and like and
he says, Scott, boys, get me as much mine as possible,
but let me land me lay me here. Could be
the Dodgers, it could be New York, it could be Washington.
Who knows, but like, I think that to me, that
that's what like want so to that doesn't reveal any

(38:03):
information because of course wants would play coy. He's not
gonna say I want to be in New York and
like give up one hundred million dollars Scott. Do you
think p SODA's coming back? Yeah, I mean obviously, Look,
let's accept that the smart bet, if I were betting
actual money of mine on this, is to bet the field,
because no one team is very likely to be a

(38:24):
better than fifty to fifty shot. But I think Heil's
not that big. That's a good point with that level
of money. But if it's like four teams, you know,
the Yankees could better than one and four. But I
think that I think he's coming back. I think he
probably wants to be in New York. I think he's
a smart man who knows not to say it. But
either he's the best actor in history, or he really
like being on the Yankees, And I think that, look

(38:44):
the Yankees are, it's gonna be like the Alamoto chase
last year, which is that the dude wanted to be
in La. It's exactly what you said. He just made
sure La was the high better. But he was gonna
give an La a chance to beat anything. So the
questions just will the Yankees beat some whack off or
to some other teammates. I think they will. For Sodo,
Uh yeah, I think so. I mean I could imagine

(39:05):
like the Mets offering him like stupid money, like a
billion well you know, like just just more money than
anybody could ever acceist. Besides that, like, I don't think
there's a world where the Yankees are significantly out bit
like Soda is just such a good bet. He's so young,
his skills are going to age so well. I just
I and I agree with you, Like it seems like

(39:27):
he had a good time. I think Rob is the
smart one pick in the field. But I feel like
I feel like Sodo is going to come back, and
I think they think he's really need him. But that
that's a different episode. Let's go to the next one.
Labor Torres rob as he played his last game.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Uh No, I don't think Solis in part because looking
ahead to kind of like free if the Yankees let
him go, who would the Yankees look to try to
replace him with? And I don't really see anyone out
on free agency that I would actually want over Glabor
Torres at this point. So just because the other people
at the dance dance, you know, aren't as attracted. I
think Labor's coming back. I think he's hasn't played last

(40:06):
games last game.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
I agree, I think he's coming back. I think his
end of the season really turned it around. There's a
good narrative that you know, for the one time in
his life, Boone gave a guy some tough love and
brought him back, and he's, you know, been good now.
And he has flaws, but he's pretty good. And as
you noted a while ago, EJ, they've given up on
Oswald Perausa for reasons that pass understanding for me. They

(40:32):
didn't act like they see Cabrera as a potential full
time infielders. So who else, you know, and doubting there's
somebody else out there who's reliably better than Taurists and
the fact that they see him as a leadoff hitter.
I think they you know, I'm not betting a lot
of money on this, but yeah, I think they're going
to bring him back. I think the contract will now
be pretty reasonable. I think he's a one year deal
candidate right Like, I wouldn't be shocked if you get

(40:55):
to qualifying offer, because I want to qualifying offer would
make it harder for him to sign uphere, and so
you're paying a little bit extra to kind of guarantee
a one year deal. And I think Torres is young
enough he's he's gonna be twenty eight next year that
if he has a really good year, he could go
on the market and make a lot of money. And
I just don't see any team giving him a long
term deal right now just because he's he wasn't good
this year, he can't find the playoffs, wasn't great in

(41:17):
the playoffs. But this can be the rare guy who
might and should accept the qualifying orver because athletes all
believe in themselves more than they should. That's why they
could do this. But I think if he believes that
his second half is real, then he might think, I know,
I'm not gonna get you know, an eight figure, you know,
hundreds of millions. So let me perform like I did

(41:38):
in August, September, October all year and then I'll get
the deal. So, man, if he has an eight hundred
ops next year, like he could get a pretty big contract.
He'll still be young, still be a middle infielder, Like
it seems like pretty easy to me. Whereas now, I mean,
the guy's coming off a seven or nine OPS season.
You know, he's his postseason was fine, but his World
Series was bad enough that kind of brings the numbers down.

(42:00):
It just wasn't all that impressive. So, yeah, the Yankees
don't have a second baseman. I actually want to when
we talk about laboratories, I have a crazy idea that
I have no idea if it will actually work out.
But I think he's valuable and I think they nearly
off hitter, and so I would not be shocked if
he becomes bad. Guys wouldn't be shocked if he goes elsewhere.

(42:21):
He also might just be a change of seniory guy.
Clay Holmes, Scott Clayholm. We'll do a couple here quickly.
Clay Holmes, is he is he done? I think he
comes back because, you know, I think he got a
little job in being demoted from the closing rule. I
get it, but I think it was like, when you
look at it, it's about like ten innings that he
wasn't good, maybe thirteen, and that's like two bad starts.

(42:43):
And we wouldn't have been demoting Garrett Cole for two
bad starts. So I think he's good. I think he's
come back, but ironically, demoting him from the closing rule probably,
you know, depletes his value. Not that so many teams
value the closer thing anymore, but you know, when your team,
the Yankees, showed a lack of faith in you, I
think he's gonna depress his market. So I'm an optimist.

(43:04):
I think they depressed his market enough that he's affordable
to bring back. I think some team pays him more
like the Yankees, I think are not gonna want to
spend money on their closer next year. They they have,
they have Luke Weaver, and like some team's gonna get
him like a three year deal or something. Scott, I mean,
Rob Tommy Canley.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Tommy Canley, Yeah, I think so. I think he comes
back on on a relatively small deal, something reasonable. I
think they. I think, you know, he's good for the clubhouse.
I think he brings a certain level of intensity, uh
that a lot of other guys seem to lack. So
I think they. I think they make an offer and
he comes back.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
I think they figure something out with Canley kind of
mid season where where which was just like the just
throw of the change up and it kind of works
and it will be a reasonable deal. So I'm with
you there. I think I think Canley's probably back. They're
gonna need a lot of relievers, so that's important. Uh,
Scott for do go oh god God, I will start,
you know, rooting for the White Sox or something if

(44:02):
they bring back Ridugo. No, he's not going back. No,
I wouldn't be shocking if he ends up on the
White Sox. Uh. Let's see, let's do some some okay. Uh.
Anthony Rizzo, rob.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Uh Rizzo, I think it's played his last games as
a as a Yankee. This final he's been Unfortunately, he's
had uh kind of a up and down career with
with the Yankees.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Really down.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Uh. He before he had his concussion was last year, Uh,
and some other injuries. You look at it. He had
a couple of like, you know, good half seasons and
then something happened and like he was messed up for
the rest of the season and he looked terrible and
that brings everything down.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
This past season was more of that. And in addition
to hitting woes, there were there were there were more
fielding issues, which is very unlike him. Uh he I
always thought of Anthony Rizzo as a very solid fielding
veteran first basement and.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
That's just the playoffs. I mean, it's like, I think
I wrote something in April about something being wrong.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
With and and as and as exemplary of that is
that that fifth inning where he like didn't really run
to first base and Garrett Cole thought it was his
and Rizzo kind of like, oh, it hopped a little
bit too much and he just kind of and Mookie Betts,
you know, busted down the first base line and beat

(45:33):
two Yankees to first base for that. So I think
I think, I, uh, looking at like kind of free agency,
I think there's other guys on there that they probably
be willing to take a flyer on. Uh, and I
think they've got other options. They seem to be okay
with not having a big hitting first baseman for the
past couple of seasons, maybe in part because they don't
have one of their own and there isn't a whole

(45:54):
lot of on the free agent market, or at least
there hasn't been. So I think he I think he plays.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Last game, Scott DJ Lemayhew. You know, last thing you'll
say about Rizzo is I agree he's not coming back.
But if he comes back, I think there's some non
zero chance of that, and that'll be a sign that
they are just going on feels and who's a buddy
and maybe listening to Judge talking about who's a good guy,
because you know, I like Judge, but he's not a strategist.
So I'm viewing this as a test for them, you know.

(46:23):
So as far as I'm wait, do wees oh the Mayhew,
I I mean, here's the thing. If somebody's got to
come back and play baseball, right, So if they let
Red go go and Rizzle doesn't come back, and maybe
Tourist doesn't come back, you know, they have a lot
of roster spots to fill, so one of these fairly
unexciting guys have to come back. I just come back

(46:43):
to the fact that he's got two years thirty million.
I think that what they might do is that if
he looks like garbage and spring training, maybe they release him.
But most likely they give him a couple of months.
I could see him comes as a start. Do you
think they pencil a man the second or third? Oh? God, no,
another I think but I think they bring him back
and give him more of a chance than maybe they should.

(47:04):
But by the All Star break he might be gone
if he's not any better. All right, let's see any
other any other players that might be question marks? How
about Stroman? Didn't get a single inning in the playoffs? Right?

Speaker 2 (47:18):
I don't think so?

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yeah, not one. No is strong like let's I mean
not even.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
The blowout in Game four. I felt like, Okay, put
Stroman in, you know, you know, kind of like reward
him for kind of uh you know, kind of being
involved and being a being a teammate and all that time.
And they put in uh Masa instead.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
And Stroman really fell apart late.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Do you think he's gone?

Speaker 2 (47:44):
I think so. I think so.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
I think he's tradable.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
You think they sign sign and then send him out.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
I mean, I think you could trade him maybe take
a little bit of salary. Yeah, like I I it's
an eighteen point five ninion dollars deal. And you know,
he's the guy who at least you know, he has bent,
he pitched, he's healthy ish. You know, maybe maybe you
hope he comes back with a little more philosophy next year.
Maybe maybe he was doing some kind nagging injury. I
wouldn't be shocked, restrainable. It's uh. And if he's a

(48:12):
fifth star around, like, it's the end of the world. You know.
I just looked this up. I was gonna agree, but
I didn't remember this. I just sell this now, which
is that for twenty twenties, he's eighteen five. Next year
is a salary, but the next year is eighteen million.
It's a player option, and that player option is contingent
on throwing one hundred and forty innings in twenty twenty four,
which I know, Oh really, I know that. I did

(48:32):
not know that either until like eight seconds ago. But
I think that suddenly, if Stroman were one year in
eighteen left, somebody would take a flyer on him. I
don't know that he's two years and thirty six point five. Yeah,
that's interesting, all right, let's see, I think that is
that's this this when this sneary few that might relate
to a couple of these players. If they lose some
of the Mets, I bet the sign Peede Alonzo. Yeah,

(48:54):
that would be. We're gonna talk about those those players.
But I'll tell you my previous Peede Alonzo is not
not a good baseball ball agreed. Way, if Pete A.
Lonzo gets a two undred million dollar deal like that,
it's insane. Yeah, you know, we're gonna talk a lot,
a lot about all these guys. The off season is
coming fast, so we're gonna go back to a regular
Sunday schedule and just start talking about everything. We've got
lots of options and and and qualifying off for stuff

(49:17):
coming up, and we got a The Yankees have a
lot of work to do. They have, as we just mentioned,
a ton of free agents, some holes to fill that
that that weren't filled last year. They have to make
decisions on whether to go with young guys, They have
to make decisions about you know, are they going to
try to trade some of these guys. It's it's gonna
be a very busy offseason. And because they made the
World Series, there's just no time, there's no downtime, there's

(49:39):
no break. So this has been wonderful, uh, you know,
the playoffs, despite how it ended, I had a lot
of fun. I'm glad talking I had a lot of
fun talking with you guys, uh, you know, and everyone
else who comes on these shows. It's uh, it's been good.
So so thank you guys for coming on. Everybody, thank
you for listening. And this has been your Bronx Beat podcast.