January 26, 2025 • 39 mins
EJ, Pat and John discuss the newest Yankees in the Hall of Fame, CC Sabathia and Ichiro Suzuki.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Hello, Welcome Episode four and thirty eight of the Bronxby podcast.
I'm e J. Fagan tonight, joined by Patrick gunn Hey everybody,
and John Nielson.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Good evening, Hey, Pat, Hey, J.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Good evening, guys. I'm glad to be here talking baseball
with you, even though nothing has happened. So we're gonna
talk about the Hall of Fame. I'm excited to talk
about some of these players. First, quick programming note, no
episode next week. I'm going to be traveling, and at
some point soon there will be a migration to a
different podcast feed, though though not yet. I need to
(00:47):
have some time for that to happen, probably when I
have a grandparent here to help with childcare. Let's talk
about the Hall of Fame. CC Sabathia and Ichro Suzuki
were elected on the first ballot to the Hall of
Fame that some other guys will talk about later. But
I want to talk about one of my favorite pitchers ever,
CC Sabathia, Pat. I feel like when I think about
(01:08):
like my like my like prime Yankee childhood, it was
Andy Pettit Marianno Rivera.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Those are my two guys, and and those are the
two pitchers that that I know very very well, and
you know Mike Messina maybe being a third. I feel
like for you C. C. Sabathia was the guy.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Yeah, he was the main ace for my childhood and
I mostly started following in twenty ten. That was his
first twenty win that I think maybe his only twenty
win season. I distinctly remember several starts, including him getting
that twentieth win in Camden Yards.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think he went seven innings in that game.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
They showed the montage and the Yankees of social media
with him winning that twentieth game then, and I remember
so many other moments, like the complete game he had
against Baltimore in the playoffs, and just so many times
it felt like when he was an eight when during
that run of him as an ace, that he was
just able to come pick up the Yankees when they
needed him most, whether it was giving a lot of innings,
shutting another team down. I think he's almost threw no
(02:06):
there was that no almost no hitter he threw against
Seattle with the rain and there was a rain delay.
He so many specific memories of him, and I think
then and then it almost seemed like he was gonna
be done after during that three year stretch from twenty
twenty thirteen to twenty fifteen, with the injury in twenty fourteen,
and then of course ending the twenty fifteen season having
(02:27):
go to rehab for dealing with an alcohol problem, and
he came back and still was able to get another
couple of solid seasons, which probably got him into the
Hall of Fame because he's able to get to three
thousand strikeouts. And I think the overall, I think just
a win. He was just a winner and someone who
was just gonna go all out for your teammates. I
think the clip that keeps going around is when he
threw at the throw at the Rays batter and cost
(02:49):
himself a bonus because he got ejected to stand up
for his teammates. But I think just so many there's
so you don't really see many pictures like him that
was just a pure workhorse guy you could just come
in when you needed a big start and get a big, productive, effective,
longer start, And there's not many pictures like him. Now
there are pictures who can be more more dominant than CC,
and there are pictures who are more more and more
(03:13):
dominant ZZ and probably overall a little more stronger cases,
but there isn't many played uniquely as that workhorse image.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And not to mention, there's the narrative.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
There's him overcoming his alcoholism and what he's done for
black baseball players. I mean, I think so I'm tweeted
about being one of the black Aces, but he was
work work, helping him get more involvement from young black
players in the league. There's definitely he's certainly a true
Hall of Famer. I am surprised that he got this
much support, but I think it just goes to show
how much the media in general, people like CEC, I
(03:42):
think that helps a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, John, I want to I'll put this diplomatically. I
think you have a little more perspective on Yankee's history
than either Paw or I. And I'm wondering, what's your
perspective on Sabbathia, Like what's his place as a as
a Yankee? Like fifty years now, you know, what are
the history books going to say about.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Him dominating personality and dominating physical specimen of a pitcher.
I love CC and my recollection of him actually goes
back to my time in Northeast Ohio. I lived there
when he was a rookie. I moved there recently from
Los Angeles at the time. In two thousand and one.
He put up a seventeen and five season early on,
(04:26):
and Cleveland recognized that he had tremendous potential going forward.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I don't know that anyone was thinking Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
At that point, but he rose very quickly and was
oft times dominating. But more than anything, he was a
big game pitcher. And after his time with Cleveland, he
helped to win a division championship with Milwaukee and then
came to the Yankees and had the same kind of
dominating effect for the next three or four seasons. Like
(04:55):
you say, up until about twenty thirteen, he was a winner,
and he is, in my view, probably the best pitcher
after a Mussina in Yankee history. He's just been a
tremendous influence on the team and I'm just really thrilled
(05:17):
that he's in the Hall.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I mean, it's amazing that you frame it that way,
but I think you're right. I mean, if we look
at just players who played a lot with the Yankees
more than four or five years, so you know, you know,
you can nick Roger Clemens off that list. He wasn't
with the Yankees for that long. I think you're right.
I think he's the second best person to go into
the Hall of Fame as a Yankee. Absolutely, yep, right,
And that is amazing. And Messina did it, did his
(05:41):
best work before before he came to New York. He
had a couple of good years in New York. He
had some pretty bad years. Sabbathia was had a four
year stretch after signing a big contract where he was
pretty much the best starter in baseball or one of
the top two or three. And I just I I
don't think we appreciate him for that yet, Like I
(06:02):
don't think we put him, you know, in the the
list with you know, Ron Gidgery and Andy Pettitt and
maybe guys who won a few more World Series. That's
not CC's fault. I think he's he is. He is
the Yankee Ace. And I just remember when they signed him,
how desperate the Yankees had been for years to find
(06:22):
that guy. Right. They tried to bring in Randy Johnson
and he wasn't that that Ace. They tried to bring
guys like Carl Bovano and they were a disaster. And
like the C. C. Sabbathia A J. Burnett signing really
like kicked off the Gerardi era and and you know
he's the reason, one of the reasons, maybe the biggest
reason why they won that World Series.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah, I mean he was the m v P and
the Angels series and you could I.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Mean remember remember when the Angels were like the Yankees nemesis.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, I mean they only had three starting pitchers during
that playoff run, just C. C.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Pettitt Burnett.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
That puts a lot of you wouldn't It's probably hard
to do something like that now.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
That puts so much stress on your starring pitchers.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Because Sabathia was pitching every fourth day and.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
They were all and they were all going deep into
games too, So it's kind of it's there really aren't
many pictures to do what Sez did.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
CC you'll recall, is just a giant of a man.
I think it was six six uh and he's offensive
tackle size. He's two hundred and eighty two hundred and
ninety pounds.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
He got stronger in many cases as games went on
and as the pressure built. He was just a guy
you could count on. I think Garrett Cole has some
of the same attributes. But he's got to do it
for about another three or four year stretch here in
my mind, to have a shot at some of the
(07:47):
accolades that CC's now.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Col wasn't making like one hundred and twenty pitch starts
like CC was more regularly.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Different a though different areas.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yes, yeah, I mean, I think I think what Pat
said about you that that second in that CESI had
late in his career, the last twenty nineteen what will
kind of ignore, but twenty sixteent through twenty twenty eighteen
he had a three point seven to SIXTYRA and that
was after he lost all his velocity and he kind
of reinvented himself. He went from me a power pitcher
to being a finesse pitcher, which is what you have
to do to make the Hall of Fame. You know,
(08:16):
people make though there the Hall of Fame in their thirties.
You think about the vote today and Sabathia came in
in the first ballot, right, he had eighty seven percent
of the vote. Felix Hernandez had twenty one percent of
the vote, And I think in the two thousands, you
would never have expected that to be the case. Right,
these are guys who retired in the same year. Sabathia
started a few years earlier, but Hernandez was basically done
(08:39):
by his thirtieth birthday, and that's the difference.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I had a very interesting conversation with my son today
about this selection. He still lives in Northeast Ohio. He's
not exactly thrilled that CCS announced his intention to go
in as a Yankee. He would much prefer he goin
as a as a guardian or an Indian. And he
posed this question, I'd be curious how ue J would
(09:05):
react to you. To pat Uh, he said, if the
career of cc had been reversed, if CEC had started
his career as a Yankee had departed and gone to
Cleveland and won a World Series there, how how many
times out of ten do you think he would have
been a first ballot Hall of Famer? Was there a
(09:26):
New York bias to his selection on first ballot?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So I think this is actually a pretty easy, easy no.
And to look at the New York bias, I think
the lack of bias, I think he's have to look
to Andy Pettitt, and we're going to talk about him
in a second. Who is not going to make the
Hall of Fame. He might he might see his vote
chair climb a little bit, but you know, as a
Yankee who won for a five World Series with the Yankees,
(09:51):
you know, I think I think that there's kind of
two things here. First off, going into the Hall of
Fame as a Yankee rather than a Guardian or a
Cleveland Clevelander. I think it's a little bit of revisionous
history about his time in Cleveland, Like, like Sabbathia was
not good most of the time he was with Cleveland.
He really broke out as an ace, like toward the
end of his career with Cleveland. His first five seasons
(10:15):
he was good, he was above average, and then kind
of pat kind of mentioned all of this, Like basically
in two thousand and six, he turns it on. It
becomes a real ace. He wins the cy Young with Cleveland,
and then they trade him and he has that incredible
season with Milwaukee, which is I think where a lot
of his reputation was made. And then he comes with
the Yankees and he's just a straight up bass. I
(10:36):
think I think that there's a case to be made
that we are underrating a lot of starting pitchers because
it's so hard to be a starter today in the
major leagues. But I think that Sabbathia just cleanly fits
in with modern starting pitching right now. And and you know,
he's I think that the first ballot nature of it
(10:56):
is kind of like a weird way to argue this,
because Michael, the question for me is like, does he
deserve it or not? And the question is like easy, Yes,
Do other guys who like got in the seventh ballot
or something to deserve it? Yeah? And do guys like
my Mark Burley Andy Pettitt also deserve it and and
and are being underrated? Yes? But Sabbathia, for his era,
(11:17):
was one of the best starters, you know, among his peers.
And I think that that's the test, right, I mean,
how good are you compared to your competition? And I
can name, like what four guys that that kind of
played continued contemporarily contemporarily with him that are better like Kershaw, uh,
you know, Furlander Sures are basically right, That's that's the list.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Maybe Zach Granky, I think Grinky, Yeah. I mean it's
tough to name a couple. And I will say maybe
Cole Hamil's is close, but.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
He didn't have yearly the durability.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I mean, I think I'm with you with I don't
know about Yikee's biased because I mean, you saw jore
Pisada be a one and done and Bernie Williams go
off after two ballots, and granted Bertie came, Je came
on very crowded periods in the ballot. But still, I
think if it's reversed, I mean, he still he would
have won a championship with the Guardians and ended their
their pretty long history of not winning a title. So
(12:09):
I think that probably alone will get a boost. It
makes me wonder how they how they're going to look
at the Cubs from twenty sixteen in that group probably
I don't know if any of them are quite a
Hall of Fame status, But you know, but I think
I think CC is just such a strong narrative.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
This is He's one.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I think you could justify putting just a major League
Baseball cap because he left a big him. Even if
he wasn't his best in Cleveland, he left an impression there.
There are a lot of Cleveland fans from that period,
like like people like Johnny in the area, that really
fell in love with him as a person.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So and you could, even even as Milwaukee's didn't, that
was so short. He was so so good that year
he carried them to the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
So but I think I only I think he'd be
a probably maybe he wouldn't get quite the same support.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But it also doesn't help that he and Lebron left
at the same time, right like that. That was a
big part of I think, a big part of how
Cleveland feels about this.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
It is interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Greggy was the one player that we talked about as
a comparative. I don't think he's going to be a
first ballot Hall of Famer. And now CC did strike
out three thousand, which is more than Greggy. He won
about thirty more games I believe than Gregy did. I
think two fifty five to twenty five, something like that.
But it is interesting because it often cuts both ways.
(13:26):
There's guys like in my view, Greg Nettles and Willie
Randolph that really deserved great Hall of Fame consideration. We
mentioned Pisada earlier. These are guys that I think were
legit candidates that never really got the acclaim that they deserved,
and they're in the you know, the heart of the
Big Apple. They are longtime Yankees, certainly identified really solely
(13:46):
as the Yankees, and yet they didn't get the same consideration.
So it can work both ways, I guess, is what
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, you know, I think I think a lot of
those guys got overshadowed by their teammates, right like I
think Patty gets overshadowed by and Rivera. And you know,
I think Pat's the worst of those three players, but
I still think he's he should be a Hall of Famer.
I think the numbers are actually pretty clear, and I
think it's also clear that no one really like no
except for maybe Rivera, no one really got credit for
(14:15):
postseason stuff, right like, you know, the anti Pettitt has
an exemplary postseason record, and Bernie Williams has an even better.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
One, among the best in baseball history in terms. Yeah
it's postseason.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, And Bernie Williams, I think, up until recently was
the home run leader, the postseason home run leader in
Major League Baseball. So like, I don't think that's the case.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I I.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Also think I when we think about Cleveland Stars, I mean,
Jose Ramirez is going to be in the Hall of Fame.
I think he's going to be a first bout Hall
of Famer. I think he gets gets the recognition he
deserves for being an excellent player. And and I think
I think we can find other players similar to them
who are just identified with small market foranchizes that that
do well.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Lindor's made the conversion obviously on the other side of
New York, but he had quite a nice running in Cleveland,
suggested he was a Hall of Fame player.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, And I think that Lindor would have also been
recognized by Major League by by writers as that could, right, Like,
I don't think that that was really really in question.
And and you know, we'll see, we'll see how Lindor does.
You know, in his thirties, he's a shortstop, so he
wouldn't be the first short stop to kind of de
real quickly. But he's on track right now. I want
(15:33):
to talk about uh a player who was briefly a
Yankee UH and was just elected to the Hall of Fame,
Ichiro Suzuki. Uh. Here, John Oscar, you go first. What
do you remember? What are you going to tell your
grandkids about Ichro Suzuki.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Ichiro Suzuki came to the States having already had a
sensational career in Japan. He was the best player overseas,
and he came over and immediately was under the spotlight.
I think a lot of people wondered at the time. Gee,
there have been a number of pitchers that have made
(16:10):
the transition from Japanese baseball to the Major League baseball,
but hitters not so much that that was kind of
an unknown. We have Matsui with with the Yankees earlier,
about a decade earlier. I think that had demonstrated that
there was something there, but there was there was a
lot of uncertainty. He immediately demonstrated that he was one
(16:32):
of the best players on the planet, a wonderful outfielder,
a terrific arm, tremendous speed, hand, eye coordination, just the
bat is always making contact. A deserving Hall of Famer.
But I do want to bring up one issue about him,
and he's got the war. The war captures his base
(16:55):
running as defense, and he's deservedly a First Ball Hall
of Famer and arguably should have been an unanimous selection.
But if you look at his hitting, well, it's a
great average, it's it's pretty much power devoid. What would
you guess his ops pluses and ops pluses.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I'm looking at I can't I'm looking at now, so
I can't guess pat any idea.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
I'd probably say like one o five, it's one oh seven.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Seven is not a Hall of Fame level.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It just ist me.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Let me give a counterpoint. He started at h twenty seven. Yeah, right,
So like the questions the first ten.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Years are Hall of Fame first decade, well, and.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
You have to you have to ask the question like
what if he had been a twenty year old rookie, right, like,
what would his numbers look like? Then? I we we
may have not even seen the best of eachuro. I
you know what I one thing I love about the
Hall of Fame and what I love about baseball is
it's the only sport where you get such unique players.
(18:02):
And I think each your Suzuki is the most unique
player that I've ever watched play baseball. Right, Like, his
swing is weird, it shouldn't work right, like like running
to first base while you're swinging, like that's insane. You know,
his he's so small or he looks so small. Actually
don't know how big he really is. And he had
(18:23):
just such a just a rocket arm. You know, there's
all these these like like tall tails about him being
able to hit forty home runs if he wanted to,
you know, in batting practice. Just just a player that
I'll never see again, like I can't. I mean, John,
are there any any more unique players you can remember watching?
(18:46):
We're just there's just no one else like that.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
There's there's not really a comparative. The one I would
compare him to who he always reminded me of was
Rod Carew, and another guy who didn't hit for a
lot of power, but just put the bat on the
ball time after time after time, hit after hit. Each
Row was better than Carew from my standpoint. Caru had
a bit of an unorthodox hitting style as well. He'd
(19:10):
kind of lay the black that flat and get it
parallel to his swing path as he's standing in the
batter's box waiting for the pitch. And it didn't seem
like a great way to hit. It certainly wasn't a
great way to hit home runs, but he mastered it,
just as Ichiro did. He would often be running towards
first base while swinging, and it would give him a
two or three step advantage. To beat out a little
(19:32):
infield hit. Just a unique player that, like you say,
I don't think you'll ever see anything like him again.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I don't think his time with the Yankees are He's
going to go down as legendary. But what do you
remember from each row Suzuki near a Yankee.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
He certainly had his moments. I just remember the surprise
that came from the trade.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I remember that.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Actually the Yankees were in Seattle at the time, I
believe when they made that trade and they had the
press conference, he much just shift going to the other
locker room. I think he got a hit single in
his first step bat. It was so surreal seeing each ar,
this player synonymous with the Seattle Mariners, being in New
York yeate just in any other uniform and none. Nonetheless
(20:13):
the Yankees, especially considering his first season in two thousand
and one, the Yankees were the team that beat that
historic Seattle Mariners team, and an Etro didn't make the
playoffs again until he came the Yankees trade in twenty twelve,
and that was I think the last time he made
the playoffs, unfortunately, but he.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Was still had his moments.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I mean, I think in the playoffs He had a
home run off Jose Valverde in the first game of
the ALCS that helped the Yankees mount of comeback in
a short lived series there. And I think there was
an he also he was just a solid overall guy
and there was one home run he hit where each
where Derek Jeter, I think in twenty fourteen gave like
this really really pretty funny facial reaction to that. I
(20:52):
remember distinctly. He was always just a very good teammate.
He wasn't his best during the Yankee years, but.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
But I think he also was not great Yankee teams.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
No, he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
His last twenty thirteen to fourteen were pretty mediocre Yankees
groups unfortunately. But I think you I think the thing
that always stands out to me you talk about him
being smaller, he's in incredible shape, still in really in
very good shape. You see him coming just randomly showing
up at Mariners games or spring training, and he's able
to still do drills and take VP in his uniform.
(21:22):
He doesn't really look that much different than what he
and it's great it's only been five years, so he
doesn't really look that much different. And I think the
number that really stands out to me is why he
easily should he's easily a Hall of Famer. I mean,
you mentioned that he came over after he turned twenty
seven and he still had three thousand hits here in
the United States, which is hard to do for any player.
(21:42):
I don't think many players at debut at age twenty
seven get that many hits in their entire career. I mean,
just and I think he's a Yankee, you a brief
Yankee stint, but a Yankee stint that I think people
will be remembered very fondly.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
And I just, yeah, it's a shame.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
I know he doesn't need to be unanimous, but it's
a shame that he's not unanimous. That it's just and
he just missed it by one vote. But you know,
he's still a Hall of Famer, hall of Famer, the
Hall of Famer guy.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I have trouble believing that, not not like I if
you told me that I Tiro would is still playing
in some like like amateur league in Australia right now,
I would believe you, right, because like I just feel
like that that guy could play forever. I mean I
I I love each Suzuki there's very few players who
go by their first name, and each tru row Is
(22:33):
will always be one of them. I cannot wait for
Sabbathia and Suzuki to give their Hall of Fame speeches.
I don't watch a lot of Hall of Fame speech
speeches because they're usually kind of boring. But the two
of them, that is going to.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Be in great Yeah them Dave Parker this year, I
think Billy Wagner might get very emotional.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
The family of Dick Allen like this. This is a
good group.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's gonna be a good, good, good Hall of Fame
induction ceremony the summer. I don't think I'm gonna be
able up to upstate New York, but I if I could,
this would be one of those that I go for,
one of the last Yankee Hall of Fame inductions for
a while. Right. I don't know who the next, the next.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yanks, Carlos Beltron, But but I mean.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Like Sabbathia, And what I mean is like when when
Rivera and Jeter gave their speeches in New York, you
know the state of New York, Cooper's Town. It was
it was like Yankee Stadium crowds, right, like there were
they were Yankee fans crowding there, cheering, like because it's
it's the home territory.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Carlos Beltro, Andre Jones aren't going to get.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That, nor is Eachio, but Sabbathia will. And I don't
know who the next one is.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I would have to say, I'm gonna say twenty thirty five,
and it'll be Aaron Judge.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I think so like I think, I don't think we're
going I don't think Andy Pat's getting in. I don't
think ay Rod's getting in. That would be a fun one,
but that's not happening. Yeah, I mean there might be
some some you know, some veterans committee types, but no,
(24:11):
I think I think this is the end of that era.
And then you have that just blank period with Yankees
weren't very good, and so they he produce a lot
of Hall of Famers and then Aaron Judges, I think
he has to be your next one. I don't think
Stan's getting in. I don't think you know who else
are the candidates. Who else would be would be a
Yankee Cole.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Maybe I think Cole has a shot, but he would
be at best the second best shot behind Judge, Stanton
Scott with his postseason play. He's kind of the hitting
equivalent of Pettit in terms.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Of he gets the five hundred home runs. I think
he probably have to seriously consider it.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I okay, I'm gonna like, I'm trying to write this
post about Stan and I just disagree so strongly. Like
I think John Carlos Stan is not even close. This
is a guy who is not going to put up
any more significant wins over the course of his career.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
He was a seven point seven win player last year,
a negative player in twenty three, a point seven win
player in twenty two. Like he's limping to the finish
and barely playable, and he's gonna end with less than
fifty wins, and that he would be, I mean, not
even close to an acceptable Hall of Famer, you know.
(25:25):
I think about you know, David ortiz As as the
standard for a d H in the Hall of Fame.
He was a fifty five win player, and even he was,
I argue Cress questionable even though he got in. And
Stan doesn't have the postseason stuff that I mean. Pastan
has some has some fun postseason stats, but like he's
not or tease, I don't know, man, Like I just
(25:46):
I don't. I think Stanton is not that good.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I thought he'd had more of a comeback season last year,
but I just checked Baseball Reference. Yeah, and less than
a one war for the season.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah. I mean, I'm working on that post and we'll
talk about it when we do some previews here on
this show. But like, I like, I tried to slice
and dice this season other than the postseason and like
find some optimism, and there just isn't any. Like, he
was not good until the home at the postseason started
and then he went he did his Like I don't
know how he does it, but he just did his.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
I think you're being a little harsh and you're forgetting
the month where he was out and the players they
tried to have hit clean up how poor they were
compared to what Stanton was doing.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
At least Stanton hits home runs.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I didn't hit hits home runs. But Stanton has a
three hundred sub three hundred on base right. I mean,
he's he's just.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Not I think that he could still have I think
he's did. The power is going to be there. I
think last year the big question is him being able
to hit fastballs. Which seems have been taking a dip
and that seems just to happen in general players as
they age. But if he can find a way to
be decent on the heat on high heat, he can
I think he has a shot getting to five hundred
(26:58):
home runs. And if he gets to five hundred home runes,
then we're looking We're talking about a player who's pretty close.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So I think he'll be an interesting test case because
that was the old benchmark. I just think that, like,
we know he's not that good, right like, like he
might have he might have five on horme runs, but
he's not gonna have fifty wins. He would be probably
the worst.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
I think it's tough with war because it feels like
war isn't quite being used as the standard as much anymore.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Even J.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Jaffee is admitting that war as a stat is limited
in its the metrics for players.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
So how they're how.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I think is in terms of like as the peak ability,
like that that Stan's you can't match Stanton's power and
the way that he hit the.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
He has the unique factor, right like, he has a
unique player, but he's not a good player, right.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I don't know if i'd agree with that. But do
you think if he were a.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Free agent, what contract would he get right now?
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Right now, he probably get like a one year, like
ten to fift twenty million dollars deal.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Okay, if you're if you're I don't think he gets
ten to fifty million dollars. Like I forget. I was
looking at some dhs that signed recently. I forget who
it was, but I was like, I would give I
would give so much money. I would love to have
him as my DH over John Carlos Stan. And it
was like it was a nobody like I. I just
I think that the only reason John Carlos Stan is
(28:21):
getting playing time right now is because he has a
big contract, and if he didn't like the Yankees would
move on from him. In a second. I know this
is a future conversation. I'm hopefully this podcast is still
going five years after Stanton retires. I'm gonna put my my, my, my,
my neck out there and say, I think he's one
of those guys that gets like twenty percent of over
(28:42):
ten years.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I think you're righty Jay, I just take a quick
look at the numbers. He's been in free fall for
two or three seasons. Now, and when you're producing less
than one war, I don't see how he gets to fifty,
let alone sixty in terms of being a win player
at that level. So I'll retract Eddie mentioned a Stanton.
(29:07):
I think Garrett Cole has a shot, but he has
a lot of work to do himself. He and Stanton
have about exactly the same war currently, and at thirty four,
he's probably got to put up four or five, you know,
near nearly as good seasons as he's had two years ago.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
He's not one of those guys who didn't have the
early career that you think he did, right, like Cole
broke out twenty Yes, well, Pittsburgh also had like weird
stuff where they were like telling him not to throw
strikeouts and stuff, like they had a weird pitching philosophy
and that at that time. And I think that I
agree with you. I think Cole feels like a Hall
(29:47):
of Famer, but his stats aren't quite there yet, and
even by like you know, I've been arguing for a
while that we need to just be better about Pitcher,
lower our standards for pictures in the Hall of Fame,
because if we go by like old standards like there's
gonna be no more pictures in the Hall of Fame.
(30:07):
But even by like reduced standards, like Cole's really a
border line and he needs to he needs to play
well for a while.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
He is in his mid thirties.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I'm not I'm curious to see how he'll age because
last year I think was an up and down season
for him, even after the injury. I could see him
having a post a CCS. I don't think he's a
picture that's gonna age poorly. I think I could see
the one thing is the home he gives up a
bunch of home runs.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But well, see, I wonder if he can do what
CC did and and continue to be an effective player
after losing his philosophy. And he's actually talked about this
in press conferences and he basically said like, look, I'm
not there yet. My velocity is still there, but it's
something I'm aware of, which is a really interesting response.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
I think that it's so interesting because when I think
of Colon comparing CC, I feel like CC wouldn't have
an inning like Cole's fifth inning against the Dodgers, and
I know the defense didn't let it completely let him down,
but also the thing I remember most about I'm gonna
remember most about that start is Cole pointing at Anthony
Rizzo to cover first base, and then and then of
(31:12):
course Cole gives up the single to Freeman and the
double to Hernandez. I don't know if CC gives up
in anything like that, even with the defense caving behind him,
And I think there's just a lot of moments I
think of Garrett Cole when I think of him, just
like having very inopportune bad starts, or him not pitching
well against the Red Sox, or giving up a home
and Rafael Deverts or whatever the intentional walk to Devers
(31:36):
after that start was, even though it was a by
large meetingless September start.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
I think Cole just needs to prove some I think
it would help if the Ais had won the World
Series this year, or had won that Game one against
the Dodgers or that Game five. I think it would
have helped his case a lot. But I think he
I think Cole does need.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
A way to go.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
He's a six time All Star, he's already won a
substantial number of games, but he's far sure to CEC
right now. I think he's got to have, like I said,
four or five more All Star type seasons.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
It doesn't have to be an all.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
It's so weird because Cole has definitely had more dominant
seasons than CC in terms of numbers, like a lot
of his even his Yankees years is certainly his Houston
season like much better than what CC was doing.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
But yet CC just had just.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Clears him on like the right now from terms of
the longevity, I don't know is how many. I mean,
wins are kind of a meaningless stat in general, but
I just don't know if Garrett Cole has an avenue
to even like to two hundred fifty or maybe not
even two hundred wins at this point, Like he's right
now at.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
One hundred now, but I don't think those will be
But like, well, guess I mean, he's.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
At one fifty three now. I think there's a pathway
certainly get to about ten to twenty something.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
You might get it strike out, and obviously those benchmarks
are gonna have to be lower because I think we
mentioned c CC is the first starting pitcher elected in
the twenty twenties and the first starting picture liked by
the writers.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Since Roy Halliday. And Mike Mussina in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
It's a problem, Like I think we want starters in
the hall, right, and I get that Verlander, Scherzer, Grenky
and koshar A getting in, but like if you look
at past errors, there's more than that from those eras, right,
There's not just the all time guys, but there's the
guys below them.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
And Jay Jaffe actually did an interesting piece recently when
I was reading, just reading his Hall of Fame, it
seems like there's been ebbs and flows in starting pictures
getting elected, Like two thousand to two thousand and nine,
no starting pitchers were elected by the writers, and there
was an eleven year gap between. I think it was
Nolan Ryan's election the late nineties and Bert Bleilem's election
in twenty and twenty eleven, and he was I think
(33:44):
one of the first starters to have his win number
I think win total and he was in like the
upper two hundreds. So all I'm saying is it's just
like the starting pictures, a lot of Hall in general
is a very exclusive group for almost every position in
starting pictures. Non excluse, And I actually there's another question,
and I'm sorry, J do you have any more thoughts
on starting pitching in the Hall. I was wondering about
(34:07):
something I've been talking about with friends is about steroids.
It doesn't really feel like any other sports Hall of
Fame treats steroid users the same way as Major League
Baseball does.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Nope, not at all. Nat It's celebrated in.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Other sports, like you, it wouldn't really matter if a
player gets a one PD test, and like another Hall,
players like a rod Manny Bonds, Clemens, they'd probably already
be in.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
So I wonder if major League Baseball it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
See it seems like the answer right now is no,
considering that Bondslee Clemens both did poorly their first year
on the Veterans Committee. But I do wonder if major
League Baseball ever starts like okay, we probably got to
start getting our legends in at some point, uh and
while while they're still alive, because I mean the stuff
with I mean, frankly, Dick Allen. It's great that Dick
Allen is in the Hall, and this is completely different.
It's great Dick Allen is being recognized at all. He
(34:54):
should have been recognized when he was still alive. And
I don't know if they want to get to the
point where you're seeing the best players being recognized for reasons,
for reasons because of Major League Baseball's arbitrary rule.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
The Hall's arms ary rules. I'm sorry, I'm going along
on this point.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Look, I've talked about this on the podcast before. I
soa I'll be brief, but like, I think it's a
dumb standard. I think we have so many cheaters in
the Hall of Fame and we've never held it against them.
It was almost part of the gamesmanship of it. And somehow,
for some reason there was like a moral outrage or
with steroids that was different. And I don't think using
steroids is saying different than Whitey Ford marking up balls,
(35:33):
which he did. Gaylord Perry wrote a book about about cheating.
He's in the Hall of Fame, you know, we go
down the list's it is weird that we've picked this
one thing to be the thing that denies people. I
think we have suspensions for a reason, right, Like a
Rod was suspended and was punished for using steroids, and
(35:55):
I think that that punishment should be sufficient. This is
not equivalent to like gambling, where there's like an existential
threat to the sport. We have testing, we have sanctions.
I think the people from before there were testing in sanctions.
I think there should be no sanction against them in
the Hall of Fame. Right Barry Bonds did something that
wasn't against the rules, or at least there wasn't enforced,
(36:17):
and lots and lots of players who we don't know
about also did his pitchers who were throwing against him.
And to me, it just it's it is a strange
fight to pick.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I wonder if Gary Sheffield is the one that kind
of maybe in the Veterans Committee because he was starting
to get a lot more support and Grant so were
Bonds and Clemens before they missed off. But like, maybe
they'll try, maybe they'll give a nudge to Sheffield and
that opens things up. I mean, you look at what
Carlos Beltron did. If it wasn't for twenty seventeen, he'd
be in the Hall of Fame by now. And he's
going to get in next year because next year is
(36:47):
going to be a weaker ballot and he's up to
seventy percent.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And did anything. Carlos Beltron made more of a mockery
of the game than the steroid oosers, I'm sorry. Right,
Like the Astros banging scheme thing grease, it was, it
was so blatant, right, it was. It was. It is
not just being able to make yourself stronger, which is
what steroids did. It's it's more than that.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
In fairness to beltron A, I think they put so
much of the blame on him and not the rest
of the team or the ownership for that. For so
for the in terms of Hall of Fame voting and
b I think there is enough reporting that other teams
were doing similar things.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
The Astros were just so blatant they got caught doing it,
and they also won a title.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And again that's why I don't think we should hold
this against players like I think jose O Tuvey, who's
gonna have a pretty strong Hall of Fame case. You know,
it shouldn't be disqualifying. Oh yeah, like like and and
Alan Bregman's getting into the Hall of Fame. Trying to
give any other members of that.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Team Verlander, it's gonna be interesting cause or Lander's probably
gonna get first ballot because he's a pitcher. He's not
gonna be seen as a part of And he came
over later in the season, he's not gonna be as
scene as being a part of it, which I think
is interesting double standard. I guess you're Don Alvarez and
Kyle Tucker, but they weren't.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think part of the problem is that Barry Bonds
is a dick, and he became the first test case,
and then you had to hold up all of the
other test cases.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
And stars Roger Clemens.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
And there are definitely voter writers who don't have a
good relent with Sammy Sosa either, And it all.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Comes back around Dick Allen's biggest problem was that the
sports writers hated him. He had a vitriolic relationship with them.
It's kind of a repeat of Barry Bonds in many
many ways.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
That's not Dick Allen's fault in fair all his fault
in fairness. But a Rod is interesting the way things
of his career has shifted that like he was he
was seen as like this controversial type figure when he played,
and now he's kind of like going on Shark Tank.
He's owning the Timberwolves.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
He seems I don't know, I feel like a Rod
is a tool, like I like, I just don't think,
like I don't know, like his public persona is weird.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah, a little. It'll feel a little cleaner now, like
for lack of a better word.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
But I think that's all we have for today, So
Pat John, thank you for joining me. Everybody. We will
be off next week, so thank you for listening. This
has been your Bronx Beat podcast.
Hello, Welcome Episode four and thirty eight of the Bronxby podcast.
I'm e J. Fagan tonight, joined by Patrick gunn Hey everybody,
and John Nielson.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Good evening, Hey, Pat, Hey, J.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Good evening, guys. I'm glad to be here talking baseball
with you, even though nothing has happened. So we're gonna
talk about the Hall of Fame. I'm excited to talk
about some of these players. First, quick programming note, no
episode next week. I'm going to be traveling, and at
some point soon there will be a migration to a
different podcast feed, though though not yet. I need to
(00:47):
have some time for that to happen, probably when I
have a grandparent here to help with childcare. Let's talk
about the Hall of Fame. CC Sabathia and Ichro Suzuki
were elected on the first ballot to the Hall of
Fame that some other guys will talk about later. But
I want to talk about one of my favorite pitchers ever,
CC Sabathia, Pat. I feel like when I think about
(01:08):
like my like my like prime Yankee childhood, it was
Andy Pettit Marianno Rivera.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Those are my two guys, and and those are the
two pitchers that that I know very very well, and
you know Mike Messina maybe being a third. I feel
like for you C. C. Sabathia was the guy.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Yeah, he was the main ace for my childhood and
I mostly started following in twenty ten. That was his
first twenty win that I think maybe his only twenty
win season. I distinctly remember several starts, including him getting
that twentieth win in Camden Yards.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
I think he went seven innings in that game.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
They showed the montage and the Yankees of social media
with him winning that twentieth game then, and I remember
so many other moments, like the complete game he had
against Baltimore in the playoffs, and just so many times
it felt like when he was an eight when during
that run of him as an ace, that he was
just able to come pick up the Yankees when they
needed him most, whether it was giving a lot of innings,
shutting another team down. I think he's almost threw no
(02:06):
there was that no almost no hitter he threw against
Seattle with the rain and there was a rain delay.
He so many specific memories of him, and I think
then and then it almost seemed like he was gonna
be done after during that three year stretch from twenty
twenty thirteen to twenty fifteen, with the injury in twenty fourteen,
and then of course ending the twenty fifteen season having
(02:27):
go to rehab for dealing with an alcohol problem, and
he came back and still was able to get another
couple of solid seasons, which probably got him into the
Hall of Fame because he's able to get to three
thousand strikeouts. And I think the overall, I think just
a win. He was just a winner and someone who
was just gonna go all out for your teammates. I
think the clip that keeps going around is when he
threw at the throw at the Rays batter and cost
(02:49):
himself a bonus because he got ejected to stand up
for his teammates. But I think just so many there's
so you don't really see many pictures like him that
was just a pure workhorse guy you could just come
in when you needed a big start and get a big, productive, effective,
longer start, And there's not many pictures like him. Now
there are pictures who can be more more dominant than CC,
and there are pictures who are more more and more
(03:13):
dominant ZZ and probably overall a little more stronger cases,
but there isn't many played uniquely as that workhorse image.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And not to mention, there's the narrative.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
There's him overcoming his alcoholism and what he's done for
black baseball players. I mean, I think so I'm tweeted
about being one of the black Aces, but he was
work work, helping him get more involvement from young black
players in the league. There's definitely he's certainly a true
Hall of Famer. I am surprised that he got this
much support, but I think it just goes to show
how much the media in general, people like CEC, I
(03:42):
think that helps a lot.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, John, I want to I'll put this diplomatically. I
think you have a little more perspective on Yankee's history
than either Paw or I. And I'm wondering, what's your
perspective on Sabbathia, Like what's his place as a as
a Yankee? Like fifty years now, you know, what are
the history books going to say about.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Him dominating personality and dominating physical specimen of a pitcher.
I love CC and my recollection of him actually goes
back to my time in Northeast Ohio. I lived there
when he was a rookie. I moved there recently from
Los Angeles at the time. In two thousand and one.
He put up a seventeen and five season early on,
(04:26):
and Cleveland recognized that he had tremendous potential going forward.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
I don't know that anyone was thinking Hall of Fame.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
At that point, but he rose very quickly and was
oft times dominating. But more than anything, he was a
big game pitcher. And after his time with Cleveland, he
helped to win a division championship with Milwaukee and then
came to the Yankees and had the same kind of
dominating effect for the next three or four seasons. Like
(04:55):
you say, up until about twenty thirteen, he was a winner,
and he is, in my view, probably the best pitcher
after a Mussina in Yankee history. He's just been a
tremendous influence on the team and I'm just really thrilled
(05:17):
that he's in the Hall.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
I mean, it's amazing that you frame it that way,
but I think you're right. I mean, if we look
at just players who played a lot with the Yankees
more than four or five years, so you know, you know,
you can nick Roger Clemens off that list. He wasn't
with the Yankees for that long. I think you're right.
I think he's the second best person to go into
the Hall of Fame as a Yankee. Absolutely, yep, right,
And that is amazing. And Messina did it, did his
(05:41):
best work before before he came to New York. He
had a couple of good years in New York. He
had some pretty bad years. Sabbathia was had a four
year stretch after signing a big contract where he was
pretty much the best starter in baseball or one of
the top two or three. And I just I I
don't think we appreciate him for that yet, Like I
(06:02):
don't think we put him, you know, in the the
list with you know, Ron Gidgery and Andy Pettitt and
maybe guys who won a few more World Series. That's
not CC's fault. I think he's he is. He is
the Yankee Ace. And I just remember when they signed him,
how desperate the Yankees had been for years to find
(06:22):
that guy. Right. They tried to bring in Randy Johnson
and he wasn't that that Ace. They tried to bring
guys like Carl Bovano and they were a disaster. And
like the C. C. Sabbathia A J. Burnett signing really
like kicked off the Gerardi era and and you know
he's the reason, one of the reasons, maybe the biggest
reason why they won that World Series.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah, I mean he was the m v P and
the Angels series and you could I.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Mean remember remember when the Angels were like the Yankees nemesis.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, I mean they only had three starting pitchers during
that playoff run, just C. C.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Pettitt Burnett.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
That puts a lot of you wouldn't It's probably hard
to do something like that now.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
That puts so much stress on your starring pitchers.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Because Sabathia was pitching every fourth day and.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
They were all and they were all going deep into
games too, So it's kind of it's there really aren't
many pictures to do what Sez did.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
CC you'll recall, is just a giant of a man.
I think it was six six uh and he's offensive
tackle size. He's two hundred and eighty two hundred and
ninety pounds.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
He got stronger in many cases as games went on
and as the pressure built. He was just a guy
you could count on. I think Garrett Cole has some
of the same attributes. But he's got to do it
for about another three or four year stretch here in
my mind, to have a shot at some of the
(07:47):
accolades that CC's now.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
Col wasn't making like one hundred and twenty pitch starts
like CC was more regularly.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Different a though different areas.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yes, yeah, I mean, I think I think what Pat
said about you that that second in that CESI had
late in his career, the last twenty nineteen what will
kind of ignore, but twenty sixteent through twenty twenty eighteen
he had a three point seven to SIXTYRA and that
was after he lost all his velocity and he kind
of reinvented himself. He went from me a power pitcher
to being a finesse pitcher, which is what you have
to do to make the Hall of Fame. You know,
(08:16):
people make though there the Hall of Fame in their thirties.
You think about the vote today and Sabathia came in
in the first ballot, right, he had eighty seven percent
of the vote. Felix Hernandez had twenty one percent of
the vote, And I think in the two thousands, you
would never have expected that to be the case. Right,
these are guys who retired in the same year. Sabathia
started a few years earlier, but Hernandez was basically done
(08:39):
by his thirtieth birthday, and that's the difference.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I had a very interesting conversation with my son today
about this selection. He still lives in Northeast Ohio. He's
not exactly thrilled that CCS announced his intention to go
in as a Yankee. He would much prefer he goin
as a as a guardian or an Indian. And he
posed this question, I'd be curious how ue J would
(09:05):
react to you. To pat Uh, he said, if the
career of cc had been reversed, if CEC had started
his career as a Yankee had departed and gone to
Cleveland and won a World Series there, how how many
times out of ten do you think he would have
been a first ballot Hall of Famer? Was there a
(09:26):
New York bias to his selection on first ballot?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So I think this is actually a pretty easy, easy no.
And to look at the New York bias, I think
the lack of bias, I think he's have to look
to Andy Pettitt, and we're going to talk about him
in a second. Who is not going to make the
Hall of Fame. He might he might see his vote
chair climb a little bit, but you know, as a
Yankee who won for a five World Series with the Yankees,
(09:51):
you know, I think I think that there's kind of
two things here. First off, going into the Hall of
Fame as a Yankee rather than a Guardian or a
Cleveland Clevelander. I think it's a little bit of revisionous
history about his time in Cleveland, Like, like Sabbathia was
not good most of the time he was with Cleveland.
He really broke out as an ace, like toward the
end of his career with Cleveland. His first five seasons
(10:15):
he was good, he was above average, and then kind
of pat kind of mentioned all of this, Like basically
in two thousand and six, he turns it on. It
becomes a real ace. He wins the cy Young with Cleveland,
and then they trade him and he has that incredible
season with Milwaukee, which is I think where a lot
of his reputation was made. And then he comes with
the Yankees and he's just a straight up bass. I
(10:36):
think I think that there's a case to be made
that we are underrating a lot of starting pitchers because
it's so hard to be a starter today in the
major leagues. But I think that Sabbathia just cleanly fits
in with modern starting pitching right now. And and you know,
he's I think that the first ballot nature of it
(10:56):
is kind of like a weird way to argue this,
because Michael, the question for me is like, does he
deserve it or not? And the question is like easy, Yes,
Do other guys who like got in the seventh ballot
or something to deserve it? Yeah? And do guys like
my Mark Burley Andy Pettitt also deserve it and and
and are being underrated? Yes? But Sabbathia, for his era,
(11:17):
was one of the best starters, you know, among his peers.
And I think that that's the test, right, I mean,
how good are you compared to your competition? And I
can name, like what four guys that that kind of
played continued contemporarily contemporarily with him that are better like Kershaw, uh,
you know, Furlander Sures are basically right, That's that's the list.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
Maybe Zach Granky, I think Grinky, Yeah. I mean it's
tough to name a couple. And I will say maybe
Cole Hamil's is close, but.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
He didn't have yearly the durability.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
I mean, I think I'm with you with I don't
know about Yikee's biased because I mean, you saw jore
Pisada be a one and done and Bernie Williams go
off after two ballots, and granted Bertie came, Je came
on very crowded periods in the ballot. But still, I
think if it's reversed, I mean, he still he would
have won a championship with the Guardians and ended their
their pretty long history of not winning a title. So
(12:09):
I think that probably alone will get a boost. It
makes me wonder how they how they're going to look
at the Cubs from twenty sixteen in that group probably
I don't know if any of them are quite a
Hall of Fame status, But you know, but I think
I think CC is just such a strong narrative.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
This is He's one.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
I think you could justify putting just a major League
Baseball cap because he left a big him. Even if
he wasn't his best in Cleveland, he left an impression there.
There are a lot of Cleveland fans from that period,
like like people like Johnny in the area, that really
fell in love with him as a person.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
So and you could, even even as Milwaukee's didn't, that
was so short. He was so so good that year
he carried them to the playoffs.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
So but I think I only I think he'd be
a probably maybe he wouldn't get quite the same support.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But it also doesn't help that he and Lebron left
at the same time, right like that. That was a
big part of I think, a big part of how
Cleveland feels about this.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
It is interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Greggy was the one player that we talked about as
a comparative. I don't think he's going to be a
first ballot Hall of Famer. And now CC did strike
out three thousand, which is more than Greggy. He won
about thirty more games I believe than Gregy did. I
think two fifty five to twenty five, something like that.
But it is interesting because it often cuts both ways.
(13:26):
There's guys like in my view, Greg Nettles and Willie
Randolph that really deserved great Hall of Fame consideration. We
mentioned Pisada earlier. These are guys that I think were
legit candidates that never really got the acclaim that they deserved,
and they're in the you know, the heart of the
Big Apple. They are longtime Yankees, certainly identified really solely
(13:46):
as the Yankees, and yet they didn't get the same consideration.
So it can work both ways, I guess, is what
I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, you know, I think I think a lot of
those guys got overshadowed by their teammates, right like I
think Patty gets overshadowed by and Rivera. And you know,
I think Pat's the worst of those three players, but
I still think he's he should be a Hall of Famer.
I think the numbers are actually pretty clear, and I
think it's also clear that no one really like no
except for maybe Rivera, no one really got credit for
(14:15):
postseason stuff, right like, you know, the anti Pettitt has
an exemplary postseason record, and Bernie Williams has an even better.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
One, among the best in baseball history in terms. Yeah
it's postseason.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, And Bernie Williams, I think, up until recently was
the home run leader, the postseason home run leader in
Major League Baseball. So like, I don't think that's the case.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I I.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Also think I when we think about Cleveland Stars, I mean,
Jose Ramirez is going to be in the Hall of Fame.
I think he's going to be a first bout Hall
of Famer. I think he gets gets the recognition he
deserves for being an excellent player. And and I think
I think we can find other players similar to them
who are just identified with small market foranchizes that that
do well.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Lindor's made the conversion obviously on the other side of
New York, but he had quite a nice running in Cleveland,
suggested he was a Hall of Fame player.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, And I think that Lindor would have also been
recognized by Major League by by writers as that could, right, Like,
I don't think that that was really really in question.
And and you know, we'll see, we'll see how Lindor does.
You know, in his thirties, he's a shortstop, so he
wouldn't be the first short stop to kind of de
real quickly. But he's on track right now. I want
(15:33):
to talk about uh a player who was briefly a
Yankee UH and was just elected to the Hall of Fame,
Ichiro Suzuki. Uh. Here, John Oscar, you go first. What
do you remember? What are you going to tell your
grandkids about Ichro Suzuki.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Ichiro Suzuki came to the States having already had a
sensational career in Japan. He was the best player overseas,
and he came over and immediately was under the spotlight.
I think a lot of people wondered at the time. Gee,
there have been a number of pitchers that have made
(16:10):
the transition from Japanese baseball to the Major League baseball,
but hitters not so much that that was kind of
an unknown. We have Matsui with with the Yankees earlier,
about a decade earlier. I think that had demonstrated that
there was something there, but there was there was a
lot of uncertainty. He immediately demonstrated that he was one
(16:32):
of the best players on the planet, a wonderful outfielder,
a terrific arm, tremendous speed, hand, eye coordination, just the
bat is always making contact. A deserving Hall of Famer.
But I do want to bring up one issue about him,
and he's got the war. The war captures his base
(16:55):
running as defense, and he's deservedly a First Ball Hall
of Famer and arguably should have been an unanimous selection.
But if you look at his hitting, well, it's a
great average, it's it's pretty much power devoid. What would
you guess his ops pluses and ops pluses.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
I'm looking at I can't I'm looking at now, so
I can't guess pat any idea.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
I'd probably say like one o five, it's one oh seven.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Seven is not a Hall of Fame level.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It just ist me.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Let me give a counterpoint. He started at h twenty seven. Yeah, right,
So like the questions the first ten.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Years are Hall of Fame first decade, well, and.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
You have to you have to ask the question like
what if he had been a twenty year old rookie, right, like,
what would his numbers look like? Then? I we we
may have not even seen the best of eachuro. I
you know what I one thing I love about the
Hall of Fame and what I love about baseball is
it's the only sport where you get such unique players.
(18:02):
And I think each your Suzuki is the most unique
player that I've ever watched play baseball. Right, Like, his
swing is weird, it shouldn't work right, like like running
to first base while you're swinging, like that's insane. You know,
his he's so small or he looks so small. Actually
don't know how big he really is. And he had
(18:23):
just such a just a rocket arm. You know, there's
all these these like like tall tails about him being
able to hit forty home runs if he wanted to,
you know, in batting practice. Just just a player that
I'll never see again, like I can't. I mean, John,
are there any any more unique players you can remember watching?
(18:46):
We're just there's just no one else like that.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
There's there's not really a comparative. The one I would
compare him to who he always reminded me of was
Rod Carew, and another guy who didn't hit for a
lot of power, but just put the bat on the
ball time after time after time, hit after hit. Each
Row was better than Carew from my standpoint. Caru had
a bit of an unorthodox hitting style as well. He'd
(19:10):
kind of lay the black that flat and get it
parallel to his swing path as he's standing in the
batter's box waiting for the pitch. And it didn't seem
like a great way to hit. It certainly wasn't a
great way to hit home runs, but he mastered it,
just as Ichiro did. He would often be running towards
first base while swinging, and it would give him a
two or three step advantage. To beat out a little
(19:32):
infield hit. Just a unique player that, like you say,
I don't think you'll ever see anything like him again.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I don't think his time with the Yankees are He's
going to go down as legendary. But what do you
remember from each row Suzuki near a Yankee.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
He certainly had his moments. I just remember the surprise
that came from the trade.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I remember that.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Actually the Yankees were in Seattle at the time, I
believe when they made that trade and they had the
press conference, he much just shift going to the other
locker room. I think he got a hit single in
his first step bat. It was so surreal seeing each ar,
this player synonymous with the Seattle Mariners, being in New
York yeate just in any other uniform and none. Nonetheless
(20:13):
the Yankees, especially considering his first season in two thousand
and one, the Yankees were the team that beat that
historic Seattle Mariners team, and an Etro didn't make the
playoffs again until he came the Yankees trade in twenty twelve,
and that was I think the last time he made
the playoffs, unfortunately, but he.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
Was still had his moments.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I mean, I think in the playoffs He had a
home run off Jose Valverde in the first game of
the ALCS that helped the Yankees mount of comeback in
a short lived series there. And I think there was
an he also he was just a solid overall guy
and there was one home run he hit where each
where Derek Jeter, I think in twenty fourteen gave like
this really really pretty funny facial reaction to that. I
(20:52):
remember distinctly. He was always just a very good teammate.
He wasn't his best during the Yankee years, but.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
But I think he also was not great Yankee teams.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
No, he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
His last twenty thirteen to fourteen were pretty mediocre Yankees
groups unfortunately. But I think you I think the thing
that always stands out to me you talk about him
being smaller, he's in incredible shape, still in really in
very good shape. You see him coming just randomly showing
up at Mariners games or spring training, and he's able
to still do drills and take VP in his uniform.
(21:22):
He doesn't really look that much different than what he
and it's great it's only been five years, so he
doesn't really look that much different. And I think the
number that really stands out to me is why he
easily should he's easily a Hall of Famer. I mean,
you mentioned that he came over after he turned twenty
seven and he still had three thousand hits here in
the United States, which is hard to do for any player.
(21:42):
I don't think many players at debut at age twenty
seven get that many hits in their entire career. I mean,
just and I think he's a Yankee, you a brief
Yankee stint, but a Yankee stint that I think people
will be remembered very fondly.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
And I just, yeah, it's a shame.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
I know he doesn't need to be unanimous, but it's
a shame that he's not unanimous. That it's just and
he just missed it by one vote. But you know,
he's still a Hall of Famer, hall of Famer, the
Hall of Famer guy.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I have trouble believing that, not not like I if
you told me that I Tiro would is still playing
in some like like amateur league in Australia right now,
I would believe you, right, because like I just feel
like that that guy could play forever. I mean I
I I love each Suzuki there's very few players who
go by their first name, and each tru row Is
(22:33):
will always be one of them. I cannot wait for
Sabbathia and Suzuki to give their Hall of Fame speeches.
I don't watch a lot of Hall of Fame speech
speeches because they're usually kind of boring. But the two
of them, that is going to.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Be in great Yeah them Dave Parker this year, I
think Billy Wagner might get very emotional.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
The family of Dick Allen like this. This is a
good group.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's gonna be a good, good, good Hall of Fame
induction ceremony the summer. I don't think I'm gonna be
able up to upstate New York, but I if I could,
this would be one of those that I go for,
one of the last Yankee Hall of Fame inductions for
a while. Right. I don't know who the next, the next.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yanks, Carlos Beltron, But but I mean.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Like Sabbathia, And what I mean is like when when
Rivera and Jeter gave their speeches in New York, you
know the state of New York, Cooper's Town. It was
it was like Yankee Stadium crowds, right, like there were
they were Yankee fans crowding there, cheering, like because it's
it's the home territory.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Carlos Beltro, Andre Jones aren't going to get.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
That, nor is Eachio, but Sabbathia will. And I don't
know who the next one is.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I would have to say, I'm gonna say twenty thirty five,
and it'll be Aaron Judge.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
I think so like I think, I don't think we're
going I don't think Andy Pat's getting in. I don't
think ay Rod's getting in. That would be a fun one,
but that's not happening. Yeah, I mean there might be
some some you know, some veterans committee types, but no,
(24:11):
I think I think this is the end of that era.
And then you have that just blank period with Yankees
weren't very good, and so they he produce a lot
of Hall of Famers and then Aaron Judges, I think
he has to be your next one. I don't think
Stan's getting in. I don't think you know who else
are the candidates. Who else would be would be a
Yankee Cole.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Maybe I think Cole has a shot, but he would
be at best the second best shot behind Judge, Stanton
Scott with his postseason play. He's kind of the hitting
equivalent of Pettit in terms.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Of he gets the five hundred home runs. I think
he probably have to seriously consider it.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I okay, I'm gonna like, I'm trying to write this
post about Stan and I just disagree so strongly. Like
I think John Carlos Stan is not even close. This
is a guy who is not going to put up
any more significant wins over the course of his career.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
He was a seven point seven win player last year,
a negative player in twenty three, a point seven win
player in twenty two. Like he's limping to the finish
and barely playable, and he's gonna end with less than
fifty wins, and that he would be, I mean, not
even close to an acceptable Hall of Famer, you know.
(25:25):
I think about you know, David ortiz As as the
standard for a d H in the Hall of Fame.
He was a fifty five win player, and even he was,
I argue Cress questionable even though he got in. And
Stan doesn't have the postseason stuff that I mean. Pastan
has some has some fun postseason stats, but like he's
not or tease, I don't know, man, Like I just
(25:46):
I don't. I think Stanton is not that good.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
I thought he'd had more of a comeback season last year,
but I just checked Baseball Reference. Yeah, and less than
a one war for the season.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah. I mean, I'm working on that post and we'll
talk about it when we do some previews here on
this show. But like, I like, I tried to slice
and dice this season other than the postseason and like
find some optimism, and there just isn't any. Like, he
was not good until the home at the postseason started
and then he went he did his Like I don't
know how he does it, but he just did his.
Speaker 4 (26:19):
I think you're being a little harsh and you're forgetting
the month where he was out and the players they
tried to have hit clean up how poor they were
compared to what Stanton was doing.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
At least Stanton hits home runs.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I didn't hit hits home runs. But Stanton has a
three hundred sub three hundred on base right. I mean,
he's he's just.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Not I think that he could still have I think
he's did. The power is going to be there. I
think last year the big question is him being able
to hit fastballs. Which seems have been taking a dip
and that seems just to happen in general players as
they age. But if he can find a way to
be decent on the heat on high heat, he can
I think he has a shot getting to five hundred
(26:58):
home runs. And if he gets to five hundred home runes,
then we're looking We're talking about a player who's pretty close.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
So I think he'll be an interesting test case because
that was the old benchmark. I just think that, like,
we know he's not that good, right like, like he
might have he might have five on horme runs, but
he's not gonna have fifty wins. He would be probably
the worst.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
I think it's tough with war because it feels like
war isn't quite being used as the standard as much anymore.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Even J.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Jaffee is admitting that war as a stat is limited
in its the metrics for players.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
So how they're how.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I think is in terms of like as the peak ability,
like that that Stan's you can't match Stanton's power and
the way that he hit the.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
He has the unique factor, right like, he has a
unique player, but he's not a good player, right.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
I don't know if i'd agree with that. But do
you think if he were a.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Free agent, what contract would he get right now?
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Right now, he probably get like a one year, like
ten to fift twenty million dollars deal.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Okay, if you're if you're I don't think he gets
ten to fifty million dollars. Like I forget. I was
looking at some dhs that signed recently. I forget who
it was, but I was like, I would give I
would give so much money. I would love to have
him as my DH over John Carlos Stan. And it
was like it was a nobody like I. I just
I think that the only reason John Carlos Stan is
(28:21):
getting playing time right now is because he has a
big contract, and if he didn't like the Yankees would
move on from him. In a second. I know this
is a future conversation. I'm hopefully this podcast is still
going five years after Stanton retires. I'm gonna put my my, my, my,
my neck out there and say, I think he's one
of those guys that gets like twenty percent of over
(28:42):
ten years.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I think you're righty Jay, I just take a quick
look at the numbers. He's been in free fall for
two or three seasons. Now, and when you're producing less
than one war, I don't see how he gets to fifty,
let alone sixty in terms of being a win player
at that level. So I'll retract Eddie mentioned a Stanton.
(29:07):
I think Garrett Cole has a shot, but he has
a lot of work to do himself. He and Stanton
have about exactly the same war currently, and at thirty four,
he's probably got to put up four or five, you know,
near nearly as good seasons as he's had two years ago.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
He's not one of those guys who didn't have the
early career that you think he did, right, like Cole
broke out twenty Yes, well, Pittsburgh also had like weird
stuff where they were like telling him not to throw
strikeouts and stuff, like they had a weird pitching philosophy
and that at that time. And I think that I
agree with you. I think Cole feels like a Hall
(29:47):
of Famer, but his stats aren't quite there yet, and
even by like you know, I've been arguing for a
while that we need to just be better about Pitcher,
lower our standards for pictures in the Hall of Fame,
because if we go by like old standards like there's
gonna be no more pictures in the Hall of Fame.
(30:07):
But even by like reduced standards, like Cole's really a
border line and he needs to he needs to play
well for a while.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
He is in his mid thirties.
Speaker 4 (30:16):
I'm not I'm curious to see how he'll age because
last year I think was an up and down season
for him, even after the injury. I could see him
having a post a CCS. I don't think he's a
picture that's gonna age poorly. I think I could see
the one thing is the home he gives up a
bunch of home runs.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But well, see, I wonder if he can do what
CC did and and continue to be an effective player
after losing his philosophy. And he's actually talked about this
in press conferences and he basically said like, look, I'm
not there yet. My velocity is still there, but it's
something I'm aware of, which is a really interesting response.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
I think that it's so interesting because when I think
of Colon comparing CC, I feel like CC wouldn't have
an inning like Cole's fifth inning against the Dodgers, and
I know the defense didn't let it completely let him down,
but also the thing I remember most about I'm gonna
remember most about that start is Cole pointing at Anthony
Rizzo to cover first base, and then and then of
(31:12):
course Cole gives up the single to Freeman and the
double to Hernandez. I don't know if CC gives up
in anything like that, even with the defense caving behind him,
And I think there's just a lot of moments I
think of Garrett Cole when I think of him, just
like having very inopportune bad starts, or him not pitching
well against the Red Sox, or giving up a home
and Rafael Deverts or whatever the intentional walk to Devers
(31:36):
after that start was, even though it was a by
large meetingless September start.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
I think Cole just needs to prove some I think
it would help if the Ais had won the World
Series this year, or had won that Game one against
the Dodgers or that Game five. I think it would
have helped his case a lot. But I think he
I think Cole does need.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
A way to go.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
He's a six time All Star, he's already won a
substantial number of games, but he's far sure to CEC
right now. I think he's got to have, like I said,
four or five more All Star type seasons.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
It doesn't have to be an all.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
It's so weird because Cole has definitely had more dominant
seasons than CC in terms of numbers, like a lot
of his even his Yankees years is certainly his Houston
season like much better than what CC was doing.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
But yet CC just had just.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
Clears him on like the right now from terms of
the longevity, I don't know is how many. I mean,
wins are kind of a meaningless stat in general, but
I just don't know if Garrett Cole has an avenue
to even like to two hundred fifty or maybe not
even two hundred wins at this point, Like he's right
now at.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
One hundred now, but I don't think those will be
But like, well, guess I mean, he's.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
At one fifty three now. I think there's a pathway
certainly get to about ten to twenty something.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
You might get it strike out, and obviously those benchmarks
are gonna have to be lower because I think we
mentioned c CC is the first starting pitcher elected in
the twenty twenties and the first starting picture liked by
the writers.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Since Roy Halliday. And Mike Mussina in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
It's a problem, Like I think we want starters in
the hall, right, and I get that Verlander, Scherzer, Grenky
and koshar A getting in, but like if you look
at past errors, there's more than that from those eras, right,
There's not just the all time guys, but there's the
guys below them.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
And Jay Jaffe actually did an interesting piece recently when
I was reading, just reading his Hall of Fame, it
seems like there's been ebbs and flows in starting pictures
getting elected, Like two thousand to two thousand and nine,
no starting pitchers were elected by the writers, and there
was an eleven year gap between. I think it was
Nolan Ryan's election the late nineties and Bert Bleilem's election
in twenty and twenty eleven, and he was I think
(33:44):
one of the first starters to have his win number
I think win total and he was in like the
upper two hundreds. So all I'm saying is it's just
like the starting pictures, a lot of Hall in general
is a very exclusive group for almost every position in
starting pictures. Non excluse, And I actually there's another question,
and I'm sorry, J do you have any more thoughts
on starting pitching in the Hall. I was wondering about
(34:07):
something I've been talking about with friends is about steroids.
It doesn't really feel like any other sports Hall of
Fame treats steroid users the same way as Major League
Baseball does.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Nope, not at all. Nat It's celebrated in.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Other sports, like you, it wouldn't really matter if a
player gets a one PD test, and like another Hall,
players like a rod Manny Bonds, Clemens, they'd probably already
be in.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
So I wonder if major League Baseball it doesn't.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
See it seems like the answer right now is no,
considering that Bondslee Clemens both did poorly their first year
on the Veterans Committee. But I do wonder if major
League Baseball ever starts like okay, we probably got to
start getting our legends in at some point, uh and
while while they're still alive, because I mean the stuff
with I mean, frankly, Dick Allen. It's great that Dick
Allen is in the Hall, and this is completely different.
It's great Dick Allen is being recognized at all. He
(34:54):
should have been recognized when he was still alive. And
I don't know if they want to get to the
point where you're seeing the best players being recognized for reasons,
for reasons because of Major League Baseball's arbitrary rule.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
The Hall's arms ary rules. I'm sorry, I'm going along
on this point.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Look, I've talked about this on the podcast before. I
soa I'll be brief, but like, I think it's a
dumb standard. I think we have so many cheaters in
the Hall of Fame and we've never held it against them.
It was almost part of the gamesmanship of it. And somehow,
for some reason there was like a moral outrage or
with steroids that was different. And I don't think using
steroids is saying different than Whitey Ford marking up balls,
(35:33):
which he did. Gaylord Perry wrote a book about about cheating.
He's in the Hall of Fame, you know, we go
down the list's it is weird that we've picked this
one thing to be the thing that denies people. I
think we have suspensions for a reason, right, Like a
Rod was suspended and was punished for using steroids, and
(35:55):
I think that that punishment should be sufficient. This is
not equivalent to like gambling, where there's like an existential
threat to the sport. We have testing, we have sanctions.
I think the people from before there were testing in sanctions.
I think there should be no sanction against them in
the Hall of Fame. Right Barry Bonds did something that
wasn't against the rules, or at least there wasn't enforced,
(36:17):
and lots and lots of players who we don't know
about also did his pitchers who were throwing against him.
And to me, it just it's it is a strange
fight to pick.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I wonder if Gary Sheffield is the one that kind
of maybe in the Veterans Committee because he was starting
to get a lot more support and Grant so were
Bonds and Clemens before they missed off. But like, maybe
they'll try, maybe they'll give a nudge to Sheffield and
that opens things up. I mean, you look at what
Carlos Beltron did. If it wasn't for twenty seventeen, he'd
be in the Hall of Fame by now. And he's
going to get in next year because next year is
(36:47):
going to be a weaker ballot and he's up to
seventy percent.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And did anything. Carlos Beltron made more of a mockery
of the game than the steroid oosers, I'm sorry. Right,
Like the Astros banging scheme thing grease, it was, it
was so blatant, right, it was. It was. It is
not just being able to make yourself stronger, which is
what steroids did. It's it's more than that.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
In fairness to beltron A, I think they put so
much of the blame on him and not the rest
of the team or the ownership for that. For so
for the in terms of Hall of Fame voting and
b I think there is enough reporting that other teams
were doing similar things.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
The Astros were just so blatant they got caught doing it,
and they also won a title.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And again that's why I don't think we should hold
this against players like I think jose O Tuvey, who's
gonna have a pretty strong Hall of Fame case. You know,
it shouldn't be disqualifying. Oh yeah, like like and and
Alan Bregman's getting into the Hall of Fame. Trying to
give any other members of that.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
Team Verlander, it's gonna be interesting cause or Lander's probably
gonna get first ballot because he's a pitcher. He's not
gonna be seen as a part of And he came
over later in the season, he's not gonna be as
scene as being a part of it, which I think
is interesting double standard. I guess you're Don Alvarez and
Kyle Tucker, but they weren't.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think part of the problem is that Barry Bonds
is a dick, and he became the first test case,
and then you had to hold up all of the
other test cases.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
And stars Roger Clemens.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
And there are definitely voter writers who don't have a
good relent with Sammy Sosa either, And it all.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Comes back around Dick Allen's biggest problem was that the
sports writers hated him. He had a vitriolic relationship with them.
It's kind of a repeat of Barry Bonds in many
many ways.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
That's not Dick Allen's fault in fair all his fault
in fairness. But a Rod is interesting the way things
of his career has shifted that like he was he
was seen as like this controversial type figure when he played,
and now he's kind of like going on Shark Tank.
He's owning the Timberwolves.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
He seems I don't know, I feel like a Rod
is a tool, like I like, I just don't think,
like I don't know, like his public persona is weird.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
Yeah, a little. It'll feel a little cleaner now, like
for lack of a better word.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
But I think that's all we have for today, So
Pat John, thank you for joining me. Everybody. We will
be off next week, so thank you for listening. This
has been your Bronx Beat podcast.
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