September 13, 2025 • 53 mins
Justin and Jon reconnect after a two-year podcasting hiatus. What's happened since their last episode? Lots! They talk about big changes in their personal lives, and then move on to how they're thinking about Transistor as a business. These discuss burnout and motivation, the evolution of the podcasting industry, the pressure of being a leader, and the possibility of taking a sabbatical. The Transistor team is off to Banff for their annual retreat!
Quote:
"Working hard does not lead to burnout, but the lack of hope leads to burnout. So if you're working really really hard for something that you don't believe will pay off, it's super easy to lose motivation. And that has happened to me in the past! But! If you believe that the thing you're working on will have a payoff, the amount of work almost doesn’t matter." – Aaron Francis
Links:
- The last episode Jon and Justin recorded together
- Aaron Francis' newsletter
- "Everything you've been told about burnout is wrong."
- Matt Wensing's tweet
Have feedback on this episode?
Timestamps:
- (00:00) - Who remembers how to do this anyway?
- (00:30) - Where has Jon been for the last 2 years?
- (08:56) - What's Justin been up to?
- (11:36) - Maybe there's more to burnout than we think
- (24:40) - Should we build something else as a backup?
- (27:31) - What need to be true for you to be happier?
- (33:38) - Remote work kind of sucks
- (39:06) - Brainstorming more ideas around connecting better
- (42:32) - What about sabbaticals?
- (51:03) - Thank you to our Patreon supporters
- Rewardful.com
- Greg Park
- Mitchell Davis from sixsides.co
- Marcel Fahle, wearebold.af
- Bill Condo (@mavrck)
- Evandro Sasse
- Austin Loveless
- Michael Sitver
- Colin Gray
- Dave Giunta
🎙️ Podcast hosting is provided by Transistor.fm.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jon (00:00):
I do the intro, I guess.
Justin (00:01):
You do the intro. Do you remember how?
Jon (00:02):
Yeah. Sure. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your SaaS. This
is the behind the scenes storyof building a web app in 2025.
I'm Jon Buda, a softwareengineer.
Justin (00:12):
And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing.
Follow along as we build and runtransistor.fm. Jon, we're back.
Jon (00:32):
Yeah. It's been, it's been a while. Two years, which is
hard hard to believe.
Justin (00:37):
I've missed doing this I've missed doing this with you.
Jon (00:40):
Yeah.
Justin (00:41):
Yeah. Maybe we just gotta re reboot it. Every week,
we could just get on a call likethis.
Jon (00:47):
I think we've we've probably tried to do this, like,
a dozen times. Yeah. And itnever worked out.
Justin (00:53):
I mean, a lot was going on.
Jon (00:54):
Part part yeah. There's a lot going on. Part of it is this
is not necessarily the thingthat gives me energy like you.
Justin (01:04):
What are we doing here, Jon? What is it is it drain your
battery a little bit?
Jon (01:11):
A little bit. Yeah.
Justin (01:12):
Okay. Okay. I mean, that's the heart. We'll we'll
talk about that later. I Ithere's a great topic about
burnout that we could talk abouta bit later.
But, yeah, it's been two years.I think the last time we peered
on an episode together was ourNashville team retreat episode.
And then the last episode whereit was just the two of us,
(01:35):
04/19/2023. Jeez. That's rightafter we hired Josh Anderton,
and we did an update episode.
So
Jon (01:44):
Wow.
Justin (01:44):
It has been a while.
Jon (01:46):
It's been a while. I don't yeah.
Justin (01:47):
Nothing's really happened
Jon (01:48):
since then. Right?
Justin (01:49):
You had a lot happen.
Jon (01:52):
You There was a lot.
Justin (01:54):
What what's going on in the last two years since people
last heard from you?
Jon (01:58):
The last two years, honestly, beyond one year, I
don't even remember. But thelast two years there's been a
lot. So I got married in October2024. Yeah. Right?
What year Yeah is 2024. Whichwas super fun in Guatemala.
Justin (02:17):
It was really fun.
Jon (02:18):
You were there. There was a lot of a lot of friends of the
podcast and friends ofTransistor there.
Justin (02:23):
By the way Family. One of my favorite trips of all
time. Just like Yeah. It'sGetting to meet up with all of
your friends. It was weird beingwith people that are all our age
and just seeing the different Imean, for you, it probably felt
like a high school reunionbecause a lot of those people
you grew up with.
Jon (02:44):
Yeah.
Justin (02:44):
But for me, I was just like, it also felt like a high
school reunion. And getting tomeet all these people is like,
some people are just havingbabies for the first time. Some
people like me, like, my kidsare all, you know, older. People
all over the map and then justgetting to hang out, like, while
you and you and Wendy weregetting married and doing all
(03:07):
the photos and stuff, we wereout exploring Guatemala. So it
felt like summer camp.
It was so fun.
Jon (03:13):
It was really fun. Yeah. Was a it was a really nice time
to see everyone. Yeah. Guatemalais a beautiful place.
And you and and your wife andWendy and I all kind of traveled
a little bit together afterwardsfor a couple days too, which was
Justin (03:26):
super Went to Lake Atitlan? Is that how you call
it?
Jon (03:29):
Yeah. Atitlan. Yeah. Yeah. And hung out at a nice hotel and
just kind of relaxed a littlebit.
Justin (03:35):
Vernon and I still talk about that too. Just the most
beautiful, like, sunsets. It wasyou felt like you were just in a
different world.
Jon (03:45):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a super relaxing place.
Justin (03:47):
Except for except for when Lauren and I got caught in
a sudden downpour. And then
Jon (03:52):
That's true.
Justin (03:52):
We had to, like
Jon (03:53):
And we had to had to call the boat for you or something to
come rescue you?
Justin (03:57):
Yeah. We were like over like, we were staying on one
side of the lake, and thenLerner and I decided to go out
kinda late in the afternoon tothe other side of the lake. And
we didn't realize that the ferryonly ran until a certain time.
And so we missed the ferry, andthen it just started downpouring
like this crazy storm. And wehad to message you on WhatsApp
(04:20):
and say, please send a boat forus.
Jon (04:23):
Yeah.
Justin (04:24):
Some guy came and rescued us in the rain and oh,
man.
Jon (04:27):
Yeah. That was wild. Oh, man. Yeah. But that was that was
all super super fun wedding.
Justin (04:33):
Was that just a year that was just the like, it'll be
your one year anniversary thisOctober.
Jon (04:38):
Wow, man. Yeah. A lot it was a busy year. So following
that, we had been talking awhile, my wife and I, about, I
don't know, potentially movingsomewhere. Mhmm.
So we decided to do a road tripin March for six weeks across
The US, Western US mostly. Andthe first place we stopped was
(04:59):
Fort Collins in Colorado and wehave friends here, a friend of
mine that I grew up with who youmet at Yeah, the
Justin (05:05):
he's hilarious.
Jon (05:06):
Him and his him and his wife and kids. So we stayed here
for a couple weeks and so it wasthe first stop on the tour and
they had a friend who was arealtor and we were just like,
well let's look around and seewhat's around. Not really
thinking we would you know finda place or buy a place and we
found a place and we put in anoffer and got it and then
(05:29):
continued on the road trip forfour more weeks and then you
know came back to Chicago andrealized we had to sell two
different places and move andpack up two places and you know
find a moving company and figureout all that moving cross
country. So that that was likethe month of May was incredibly
busy. And then we we finally gotwe finally got here in the June
(05:54):
and everything went reallysmoothly.
Both, you know, selling andbuying and finding movers. We
found some good movers. Yeah.I'm glad that's over, but it was
it was a lot.
Justin (06:04):
I mean, your place looks pretty set up. Your your place
looks more set up than my place.I still don't have art up in on
some of my walls.
Jon (06:12):
Oh, no. We have, yeah, we have a guest room that's just
the bed is full of artwork and acouple boxes, and the garage is
full of stuff. So it's comingalong. It's it's been really
nice.
Justin (06:22):
I remember you saying you're going on that road trip
because I you'd been kind of,like, not happy in Chicago for a
while. Just wanted to getsomewhere else, was ready to
move Yeah. Was ready to trysomething else. I think this
also relates to this burnouttopic we're gonna talk about in
a bit. But and I I remembersaying, well, you should just go
and check some places out.
And then I I couldn't believe itwhen you, like, stopped in Fort
(06:45):
Collins and you're like, oh,yeah. We put in an offer. We're
buying this place.
Jon (06:49):
We had been here before years ago and had an idea we
liked it, but we just reallyliked it when we stayed here.
And everyone's all the neighborsand everyone's just been, like,
super nice and welcoming. It's anice change of pace from
Chicago. Although, you know,we'll miss Chicago and it's an
amazing city, but we've beenthere for a long time and just
Justin (07:06):
Looking for something different. Yeah.
Jon (07:08):
Something different. Yeah. And so we did it. And it was
yeah. Those few months were,like, really tough to get work
done and and, like, any momentumon things.
There was just, a million otherthings going on. Yeah. But we
did it. And now we're here.
Justin (07:26):
Yeah. I I mean, and this is what when we started the
company, this was one of theoriginal visions is that we
said, okay, if we could just getto the point where this replaces
our salaries, and then beyondthat, if it just if the company
gives us room and margin to havea good life to, you know, I need
(07:49):
to move. Mhmm. We can move. Youknow?
There's not a big deal. Yeah.Both you and I have both bought
new houses and moved since westarted the company.
Jon (08:00):
Yeah.
Justin (08:01):
It it's it's enabled, I think, more than we could have
really ever asked for ordreamed. Yeah. It's been
incredible.
Jon (08:09):
Yeah. I've talked about that with a lot of people of
just like how grateful I am forthe company and coworkers and
and you and having this all workout because I I don't know how
anyone would move across thecountry with a regular job.
Justin (08:24):
Yeah. I
Jon (08:25):
don't I don't understand how anyone would do it.
Justin (08:27):
Yeah. You you you I mean, you have
Jon (08:28):
to I mean, people do all the time.
Justin (08:29):
You'd to use vacation time.
Jon (08:30):
Take time off. Yeah. It's
Justin (08:32):
it's having having the capacity for a company to have
the capacity for people to livetheir lives feels first of all,
it doesn't happen enough. Andthen, yeah, when you're in that
position, you just feel superfortunate. Like, wow, this is
great. We get to do this. That'sawesome.
Jon (08:55):
Yeah. That's great.
Justin (08:56):
That's awesome, man. Yeah. Well, I've this past
summer, I well, not this pastsummer. Yeah. This past summer,
we we moved my second oldest outto Toronto to go to college out
there.
So now I have two kids out ofthe house. Sadie and Marty are
both in school. And then I justhave two at home, grade 11,
(09:18):
grade 12. So I'm I'm enteringinto an interesting phase where
I've been mostly I mean, mostlymy whole life. Mostly my whole
life, I've just been focused ontrying to grind and provide for
my family.
(09:40):
And it's been it's beeninteresting as the kids have
started to move out, and then asthe older two are just more
independent, how for the firsttime, I feel like I have the
space to kind of beintrospective and go, wait, what
(10:01):
what do I want? Am I a humanbeing? Like, what what what's
going on with me? You know? Andrealizing what a weight that's
been on me to have, you know andthere's still, you know I'm
still helping my kids out whilethey go to college.
And, you know, there's stillcaregiving lots of caregiving
(10:25):
ahead of me, but it's certainlydifferent than the other phases
of family life.
Jon (10:31):
Yeah.
Justin (10:32):
And, yeah, I it's it's again, I think having I'm just
so grateful that the companythat Transistor is at this phase
right now where as I'm now 45and thinking all these probably
45 year old thoughts like, whoam I? What do I want? What do I
(10:53):
want for the next phase of mylife?
Jon (10:56):
Why why does my back hurt?
Justin (10:57):
My back hurt all the time. And and kind of even
opening up, having the energyand time to even focus on things
that I would have never I Ididn't really have energy to
focus on before, personally.Yeah. It's been it's been really
(11:18):
nice to have that space. And,yeah, feels like I'm at a
another kind of pivot point.
We'll see what what happens.
Jon (11:27):
It seems it seems like it kind of based on the the stuff
you've been sending me and theand the things we've talked
Justin (11:33):
about Yeah. Recently. Well, let's let's get into some
of that. So Aaron Francis writesthis great weekly newsletter. I
think he calls it this week atTryhard Studios, which is his
company.
And from the 09/05/2025 issue,was this article and a series of
tweets about how burnout mightnot just be from, you know,
(11:58):
burning yourself out physicallyand mentally. Know, you're
burning the candle at both ends.That's our typical definition of
burnout. And Aaron says the ideathat working hard does not lead
to burnout, but the lack of hopeleads to burnout. So if you're
working really, really hard forsomething that you don't believe
(12:20):
will pay off, it's super easy tolose motivation.
And that's happened to me in thepast. If you believe that the
thing you're working on willhave a payoff, the amount of
work almost doesn't matter.
Jon (12:30):
Yeah.
Justin (12:31):
Yeah. There's something about that that idea. Now, I I
still think that the traditionalform of burnout exists, but this
idea that there's this otherkind of burnout. So if burnout
is like a kind of numbness orpersistent lack of motivation, a
(12:52):
kind of deadening inside Yeah.You know, that can be caused by,
you know, depression andoverwhelm.
And, you know, I've hadentrepreneurial friends who've
gotten shingles. They've been sostressed out. So stress and
overwhelm, you know, thatdefinitely is one form of
burnout. But this idea of like,man, I'm I'm working on
(13:17):
something, but I no longer seethe reason. I no longer am
motivated by this.
I think I can identify.
Jon (13:25):
Yeah. I can identify to that. Maybe not in transistor. I
really haven't felt thatnecessarily with transistor, but
certainly previous jobs whereyou just like you reach a point
and you're like, I don't careYeah. Anymore.
And you just sort of I mean, Iguess I guess it's burnout, but
it's just like, don't reallywant to be working on this. I
don't care about the end result.And then at that point, it's I
(13:46):
feel like it's just over and yougotta find a way out or
something.
Justin (13:49):
For me, what was kind of striking about this whole
concept is that there's times Ithink I haven't realized I've
been in this mode. Like, I justkeep going to the office, and
then I would get to the officeand I'd be, like, staring at my
screen and being like, how comeI can't get going? What's what's
(14:10):
what's going on here?
Jon (14:11):
And you've and you felt that with Transistor too?
Justin (14:14):
I think sometimes in the industry yeah. And and also just
maybe also just wondering, like,what's the motive? I mean, a
longtime listeners to the showwill know that this isn't the
first time we've kind of talkedabout these feelings. And I had
this great call with JasonCohen, the the founder of WP
(14:34):
Engine. And he said, you know,Justin, what are you feeling?
And I said, well, I don't know.Like, what do I have? What do I
have the right to feel anythingabout? Like, it's you know,
things are great. I'm healthy.
My kids are healthy. My wife'shealthy. We we got a house. We
got the car. We've, you know,we've got this company.
(14:55):
We got a great team. It's stillgrowing. Like, what do I have to
be unhappy about? And he said,well, actually, the it's super
common at your stage. We've beendoing transistor almost eight
years, I think.
Yeah. And he says, it's justsuper common for for founders at
this stage to be like, like,what what are we doing this for
(15:19):
now? And in the beginning, it'sjust so clear. Like, when we
started recording the show, I'vebeen going back to old episodes.
And one thing I gotta say ishaving this record of everything
like, I'd forgotten about somany of the conversations we've
had.
Jon (15:36):
Yeah. I need I haven't I honestly haven't really re
relistened to many of those atall. Should do that.
Justin (15:41):
It's I find it kind of healthy, like, just yeah.
There's something I mean, interms of reflecting back and
having perspective, it's sohelpful to have this record of
us talking things out. And atthe beginning of the show, you
(16:02):
know, we were motivated by,like, we're trying to build this
product. We're trying to buildthis company. We're trying to
replace this thing.
And then the motivation changes,you know. And so I don't think
it's existential or anything. Ithink I'm just again at a point
where I'm like, okay, well, mykids are almost out of the
house.
Jon (16:21):
Mhmm.
Justin (16:22):
I'm 45. And I think the podcast hosting industry has
definitely reached a point ofmaturity. Like, as I've gone and
talked to the podcast industryis so unique in that the
competitors are actually prettyfriendly with each other.
Jon (16:42):
Yeah. It seems like we're
Justin (16:44):
recently lost Todd Cochran, the founder of
Blueberry, who's a competitor.And he, you know, he was a
friend. And his death, like,affected a lot of folks in the
industry. But, you know,speaking to everybody, I think
(17:06):
we've all recognized, like,podcast hosting now is a I mean,
you said this too. It's kind ofa commodity.
It's we've matured.
Jon (17:14):
Yeah. They're all all the competitors are basically the
same with, like, differentlittle, you know, different
little things on top thatthey've come up with on their
own or little differences hereand there. But ultimately, it's
like the same
Justin (17:26):
Yeah.
Jon (17:27):
Stuff.
Justin (17:27):
And so, yeah, I think it's also been helpful for me to
go back. And I've just beenlooking at, for example, all of
our historical revenue numbersand looking at when, you know,
when did we really grow and whathave we done since. And the
whole industry kind ofexperienced this, you know, you
and I started Transistor whenthe market had just kind of
(17:51):
expanded because of cereal,because podcasts were just kind
of in the public consciousnessfor the first time. Saturday
Night Live was doing skits onpodcasts for the first time. You
know, all of sudden, it waslike, this was a new thing.
It wasn't new, but this was anew thing that a lot of people
were discovering. And the marketwent from being kind of this
big, smaller to it just likeexpanded really quick. And so
(18:15):
our first, you know, twentyeighteen, twenty nineteen, we're
just gobbling up market share.And then the pandemic happened.
And again, perspective is sointeresting because at the time,
you and I were kind ofstruggling.
It was just like the pandemicand all the politics and all,
you know, the shutdown. It waslike depressing. And I I think
(18:40):
at the time, we didn't evenquite recognize what was
happening. But the company grewa ton in 2020. Like, it would if
you look at the numbers, it'slike in the hundreds of
percentage points.
Like, it's it it was just amassive increase. And the same
(19:03):
with 2021. And since then, we'vebasically grown every year, but
by the same amount. So that thatchunk of new revenue we're
getting every year has notchanged a lot. And there's part
of it for me, I think I was justlike, man, we've built a lot of
(19:24):
things since then.
And, you know, part of buildingsomething is just because you
wanna build it, because youwanna see it in the world as a
podcaster, because I wanna useit myself. But another
motivating part is like, oh,man. It'd be nice to see a
direct correlation between
Jon (19:41):
Yeah.
Justin (19:42):
This thing that we're building and then new revenue.
Jon (19:45):
Yeah. But I think yeah. But I guess going back to your point
of like at the beginning, we hadthese concrete goals of like,
all right, we want to make thismuch so that at this point we
can make this our full time job.Then we want to be each making
this much amount of money atthis point in time. Now it's
like, yeah sure we want somemore customers and more revenue
(20:06):
but like to what end, what doesthat even achieve?
Like it's not going to changeour lives anymore. So that
motivating factor isn't there. Imean it's like I still get
motivated by building certainfeatures that are cool and
exciting and customers mightlike it but at the end of the
day, it might not really movethe needle or it might. And if
(20:27):
it does move the needle, likewhat does moving the needle
mean? It does.
It's not going to dramaticallychange our lives. Yeah. Which I
think maybe is part of theburnout discussion of like what
are you working towards becauseif it's just numbers and money,
it's we're already at thatpoint.
Justin (20:48):
Yeah. What's the what's the point?
Jon (20:51):
What's the motivating factor? So, yeah, it's I don't
know I don't know that we knowthe answer to that at the
moment. Right? Because we'vebeen talking about it.
Justin (20:58):
Well, and this is what was so helpful about that chat
with, Jason Cohen is he kind ofgave me this framework. I can
link it in the show notes, butit's a framework for getting
what you want as a startupfounder. And he basically says,
okay. Well, you each John andJustin, you each need to ask,
(21:18):
what do you want? And to beclear about it.
And it might just be reaffirmingsomething you've always felt.
Like, maybe like in your case,maybe it hasn't changed that
much. And maybe for me, it haschanged, and I need to be honest
about it. But just gettingreally clear about, okay, now,
at this stage of my life, whatis the next thing I want that's
(21:42):
going to be motivating for me?Or it could even just be a
thing.
I mean, another thing that waskind of maybe affecting me was
going, you know, do I like beingin this industry? Like, I I need
to ask myself that question.And, you know, every time I go
to a podcast conference, I kindof have this feeling of like, do
(22:04):
I still like this? There's beenso much more focus on YouTube.
And, you know, the bigcentralized platforms were
already kind of in there.
And it for me, there wassomething about these big
platforms dominating theconversation that was
demotivating. Because I'vealways been into the independent
(22:27):
publishing and the openness ofRSS. And, you know, for a while,
that really fired me up gettingmore involved in the podcast
standards project. And, youknow, being like, okay, we're
gonna, like, improve RSS. We'regonna innovate on top of RSS.
But even that, you know, itthere's like I think the worst
(22:49):
feeling in the world is justthis feeling of like, is is this
effort that I'm applying to thisthing, is it worth the output
that we're getting? Andlikewise, is there somewhere
else I could be applying thateffort that would be maybe more
(23:12):
motivating or energizing? Andit's so hard to know. Because
again, on one hand, things aregreat.
Jon (23:22):
Yeah.
Justin (23:22):
And on the other hand, there's part of me that's like,
I wonder. I wonder. And maybethere's also for me, one
difference between you and I isjust like, because I still have
all these kids, there's like,through college, supporting the
kids through college, I juststill have, you know, probably
(23:43):
at least another decade ofhelping my kids get established
as adults. And there's stillpart of me that is still kind of
building up my my personal nestegg even for retirement and
things like that. Sofinancially, I'm still looking
at my okay.
I gotta support my kids throughthis. And then and then it's
(24:05):
like, oh, and then I stillgotta, like, continue to build
up a good nest egg for when Iretire. And so, yeah, I'm just
always thinking about at 45, howmany how many more years do I
have in me?
Jon (24:21):
Right. Yeah. I mean, I think about the same thing and
that, you know, we don't havekids and but it's at the same
time, it's like, you got toprepare for some unknown future
of like how much money are wegonna need or what's the
retirement like or Yeah. Howmuch is all this stuff gonna
cost? It's like totally unknownat this point.
It's not I don't think you candepend on anything anymore.
Justin (24:41):
Yeah. I mean and even as stable as transistor is, I think
in the back of my mind, there'salways like, uh-huh. Maybe we
need to hedge our bets. Youknow? Maybe we need to and you
see like, Ian Landsman atHelpspot is doing this right
now.
You know? He's he's building asecond product. And, you know,
Helpspot's doing fine, butthere's always that feeling of
(25:02):
like, okay, I got this thingthat's working. But wouldn't
wouldn't I feel like a dummy ifin ten years, you know,
everything had fallen apart andI hadn't also made a backup
plan, you know?
Jon (25:14):
And that's and that's that is one option we could do is, as
a company, to spin off a newthing. But I don't think we've
necessarily had any of thoseideas. A few a few here and
there, they're I think they'reall kind of related to
podcasting and maybe
Justin (25:29):
Yeah. I think if we did something else, it would have to
be adjacent to podcasting.Personally, I would like it to
be in the creator market. Youknow? I've been thinking a lot
about spots still, spots.fm,which was this idea you and I
(25:49):
had early on.
And at the time, we didn'tpursue it because we were like
we started going down that pathand we're like, what are we
doing? We're two people. Wecan't we can't do this. We
decided to just, you know,double down on the core
business. But there is somethingabout sponsorships.
And I think enabling creators tohave any piece of content, which
(26:14):
was the original vision ofSpots, any piece of content
sponsored, where you could havethese sponsored blocks kind of
everywhere, you know, and peoplecan just grab a block, grab a
spot, and say, oh, you're you'remaking a new YouTube video on
the pharmaceutical industry.Well, I want to sponsor that
(26:35):
episode. Or you write a weeklynewsletter. Well, I want to
sponsor your next six months. Oryou you have sponsored posts on
Instagram.
Well, I want to sponsor five ofthem. And that might be worth
looking at again, you know, thatthat might be one adjacent idea
that we could pursue. The goingback to Jason Cohen's framework,
(27:00):
the the one thing I really lovedthat was, you know, identifying
what each person wants in apartnership. And then he said
both partners need to be equallycommitted to helping the other
person get what they want. Andit's so simple, but I just
thought that was such abeautiful way of of describing
(27:21):
really any any partnership ormarriage or anything.
Having that that idea of, okay,this person's an individual and
they have things they want. I'man individual. I have things I
want. And the key is we justneed to be equally committed to
(27:43):
helping each other get what wewant. Now that's not to say
everything's realistic oreverything's gonna happen.
Jon (27:49):
But Yeah. I mean, you know, if you want a yacht, like,
Justin (27:52):
that's I do
Jon (27:53):
want a yacht. Not gonna happen. Okay.
Justin (27:58):
And the other thing that was helpful from Jason was just
saying, like, this is this iskind of a process you need to do
every year. I think we have donea version of this most years
where you and I have gottentogether and at least, you know,
reviewed things and said, okay,what do we want? And and he says
it's messy, you know, like, yousay, okay, you know, what what
(28:22):
would need to be true, forexample this is such a great
question. What would need to betrue for Justin to really like
this industry again? And on onehand, know, one thing that I've
been trying is like, well, Icould get more involved with
podcast standards and investmore time and leadership and
(28:45):
energy in the Podcast StandardsProject.
So I've been trying that out.And there's part of that's been
really gratifying. You know, apart part of me going to this
conference in Dallas, I waslike, okay. Well, if if if I'm
not feeling it there, I'm done.You know?
And maybe unfortunately, orfortunately, there's just so
(29:09):
many people that came up to meindividually and said, I really
appreciate your efforts on thisPodcast Standards Project. And
so okay. That you know, there'spart of that that kind of that
is motivating. But what elsewould need to be true for me to
really feel good about thepodcast industry? Unfortunately,
(29:30):
it would mean Apple Podcastswould need to step up in a much
bigger way.
And, you know, I think Jason'skind of framing of this is if if
you're expecting if you'rebasing your decisions on a hope
(29:51):
that something will be true, andthat thing is just very unlikely
to be true, then you've got toconsider that in terms of, like,
what you're gonna do.
Jon (30:01):
Yeah. I mean, as as close as we are with the Apple people
and as nice as they are, like,they're not they just they do
their own thing, right, on theirown timeline.
Justin (30:09):
And Yeah.
Jon (30:09):
Who knows what that is? And usually, it's, they announce it
the last minute.
Justin (30:13):
Yeah. And it Man, it's yeah. It's kind of frustrating.
Jon (30:18):
Yeah. A little bit. And But
Justin (30:20):
You know? But this is the thing. Like, it's that's
kind of like, you know, you'vegot a friend, and you're like,
man, I I'm tired of this friendalways, you know, doing this.
And it's like, well, maybe youshould just not go to the bar
with your friend anymore. Youknow?
And so I don't know what theanswer is, but I think just
(30:41):
processing some of that has been
Jon (30:43):
Yeah. I think from my from my side of things, it's a little
different. I mean, I don't go toas many conferences as you. I
don't I mean I'm in the podcastindustry but I don't necessarily
feel like that all the timebecause I'm just building the
technology and that's what'sinteresting to me is writing
code and building things thatare interesting and fun and just
(31:04):
you know, I like to see ourcustomers use it and experience
it and hopefully like it butit's not like I feel the
industry bearing down on me inany way. Aside from the video
stuff, which is a thing we'vetalked about for a long time and
it's sort of like this, I don'tknow, elephant in the room of
like, how do we do this theright way if we're gonna do it
(31:25):
and try to like, I don't know,not even compete with YouTube
but just like, I don't know,operate alongside of them and
just give in and be like, well,we're not gonna beat them.
So we might as well join
Justin (31:37):
them Yeah.
Jon (31:37):
Or something.
Justin (31:38):
I mean, the podcast industry has kinda always had
that that because as independentas it is, like, the the protocol
is independent, but thedistribution has always been,
you know, Apple Podcasts. Andthen there was other but even,
like, overcast. Like, we we Iwould love to get a hold of
(32:00):
Marco, And it's he's just hardto get ahold of. He does he's
doing his thing and so Mhmm.We're all kind of, like,
dependent on each other.
And there is more collaborationpossible. That's, again, one
reason I got involved withPodcast Standards Project was I
think we can advocate togetheras a group of hosting companies
(32:23):
and independent apps. And, youknow, we could speak as a group
to Apple. We can speak as agroup to Spotify and to YouTube.
Yeah.
But there is this dependencythat, you know, to participate
in the industry I mean, you feltthis. Like, there's been some
things you've had to build withApple and Spotify and YouTube
(32:47):
that are real headaches, and wejust have to do it because it's
just gotta get done. You know, Ithink those from the engineering
perspective, those have been themost demotivating. That's when
it's like
Jon (32:58):
Yeah. Those are pretty demotivating. Yeah. Some of the
recent stuff too even. I mean,this is a tangent, but yeah.
It's I was trying to get somestuff done with an integration
on my own and then once Jasonand I finally just sort of like
started tag teaming gettogether, it was like way more
exciting and just like way it'sso yeah, just it's easy to
forget that working with someoneon something is way more
(33:22):
motivating than not.
Justin (33:23):
Yeah. I think that's a good point. Like diagnosing
burnout or lack of motivation,sometimes the answer is, like, I
think they call that bodydoubling.
Jon (33:33):
Yeah. I I read about that recently only. Yeah. Like, the
other day. And I was like, oh,interesting.
Justin (33:39):
I've definitely discovered that. Like, I, you
know, I I I've hired my kids tohelp me do certain things and
with the with my Canadiancompany. And that's, like, one
of the things I'll often do isI'll be like, call them up and
say, I just need you to be onthe phone with me while I do
(34:00):
these taxes. Yeah. And it is waymore motivating to just have
someone there
Jon (34:06):
Yeah.
Justin (34:07):
To be talking it out with them. You know, I'll get
frustrated and my daughter willbe like, dad, like, just calm
down. Okay. What's, you know,three things you could do right
now to Yeah. Just we're socialcreatures, you know?
Jon (34:20):
Yeah.
Justin (34:22):
So I think but even that is an interesting observation,
which is I think what I likeabout this kind of reflecting
time is it it helps me toquestion my reality. So I'll
give you an example. You and Ihave always been committed to
remote work. Remote work is inso many ways awesome. It enabled
(34:46):
you and I to start this company.
It enables us to have peoplethat live all over the world. It
gives you all of us flexibility.You know, people have tried
moving to Italy for a littlewhile or going on a trip and
just working while they're onthe trip. It is incredible in so
many ways. But it's also kind ofrefreshing to take a look at and
(35:10):
go, in so many ways, work sucks.
It sucks to not go into anoffice and have people there,
you know, and and Yeah. Yeah.And be like, hey, like, can we
just work on this together sideby side? There's something about
that that is amazing and thatwe're missing out on. Everything
(35:34):
is a series of pros and cons,but it's it's nice to at least
reflect on how could this bedifferent?
Or am I happy doing this? WouldI be happier if it was
different?
Jon (35:46):
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, we have our we have our retreat
coming up next week. In a coupledays, we're leaving. I mean,
it's probably something weshould talk about, but it's I
feel like every time we gettogether as a team it's like we
get really excited and motivatedabout certain things and then we
we all go home and it's like itjust sort of slowly not really
(36:10):
fizzles out but like you losethat momentum.
And then some of it sticks and,you know, some of it doesn't but
like I feel like if we weremaybe all together more often,
it would kind of, you know,linger on a little more.
Justin (36:26):
That's a good point. I didn't even think about that.
But you're right. Like, I mean,again, it's pros and cons. There
is a real advantage.
You know, I'm here in thiscoworking place, and I have my
own little cave here, my ownlittle office. And the truth is
a lot of time I close the door,and I'm just trying to focus on
stuff in my own world. Sothere's an advantage to that.
(36:46):
But Michael, who's on our team,is here in Vernon. And every
once in a while, he'll stop bythe coworking place, and he'll
knock on my door and say, hey, Ijust want to ask you about this,
or can we work on this together?
And that there's an energy aboutthat, which is just running into
somebody. And it kind of the thethread. So if you start a thread
(37:09):
at the retreat, and it's like,you know what we're gonna do?
We're gonna focus on this. We'regonna build this.
Know, like monetization issomething we've wanted to do
from the day you and I gottogether. We have mock ups of
like a Stripe donation featurefrom almost like the first week.
(37:30):
And I think part of the reasonwe haven't been able to execute
on that is if the thread justkind of gets lost. It's easy to
get lost when you're not likerunning to get into each other
all the time. Like, if you and Iwere in the same town, and it's
like, hey, John, let's go forcoffee.
And we're we walked to thecoffee shop. And as we're
(37:51):
talking, it's like, oh, man,whatever happened to that? Like,
we we gotta we gotta do thatthing, you know? I was just in
Toronto, and went and hung outwith Adam Waddon at his house.
And it was so interesting.
He has this beautiful home. Butthe first like, you go in the
entryway, and then the firstroom off to the left is this
kind of big workspace. And he'skind of set it up as like a co
(38:13):
working space for him and Steve,his co founder. Steve comes by
every single day.
Jason (38:20):
Really?
Justin (38:21):
Every single day. And it's just kind of like and while
I was there, Caleb Porzio haddriven up from Buffalo, and he
was working out of that littlespace. And so there every single
day, Adam wakes up, goes andmakes himself a cup of coffee,
goes in, and some days Steve'ssitting there at the desk. And
(38:43):
that's that's just such aninteresting
Jon (38:48):
Yeah.
Justin (38:48):
To see how other people work and how they keep their
energy and motivation. And therest of their team is is remote.
But yeah, there's there'sthere's something about being in
person that is very motivatingthat you just lose when you're
remote.
Jon (39:06):
Yeah, definitely.
Justin (39:07):
So and maybe there's ways to this is what, again, is
great about Jason Cohen'sframework because then you
you're at least imagining, like,okay. What you can say, okay.
You know what? I want to work ona team that's more colocated.
Okay.
Well, let's go explore that. Andthen you just explore all the
different paths and be like,okay. Well, I could move to Fort
Collins and be like, oh, thenI'd have to live in The US. I
(39:29):
don't really wanna live in TheUS. John's not gonna move to
Canada.
He just got settled in FortCollins. Okay. What's what are
some of the things? I mean, wecould just get way more
disciplined about flying to seeeach other. We could have more
team retreats.
We could make sure that the nextpeople we hire are in our
(39:55):
respective towns. So we justhave, you know Yeah. There's all
sorts of things you couldexplore there. And or it could
even just be, like, something assimple as, like, if if you and I
record a podcast morefrequently, we feel more
connected and more motivated.And
Jon (40:12):
Yeah. That's true. Yeah.
Justin (40:13):
There there's all sorts of ways you can Yeah.
Jon (40:15):
Could be that.
Justin (40:16):
You can you can kinda manage that. Running a company
is interesting because I I thinkthis is something that you just
can't keep having to learn is,you know, you and I come
together to work on this idea.And even that, any sort of
partnership is already has itsown challenge. Like, you are
(40:41):
kind of glued to that otherperson in a way.
Jon (40:45):
Mhmm.
Justin (40:45):
And and there's this this dynamic that Jason's
exposed, which is, yeah, we bothhave to be kind of committed to
get helping the other person getwhat they want. It And was so
easy in the beginning because,basically, it was like, we both
wanted the freedom.
Jon (41:01):
It was the same thing. Yeah. We wanted the exact same
thing. And now, I don't know,maybe not.
Justin (41:05):
Maybe not. But also, I think what what's interesting
is, you know, one of the thingsthat I think ended up being
motivating for us was like, youknow what? Like, it'd be like,
you wanted to work with anotherengineer, and I wanted to work
some other people, and I didn'twant to do customer support all
the time. And, you know, soYeah. We ended up hiring other
people to help us.
It's been great. Like, peopleare continuously astounded. I
(41:30):
again, when I was in Dallas, wewere sitting around at this
table with a very large podcastcompany that does advertising
everything. And she turned to meand she goes, how many people
are on your team? I said, oh, wewe have six.
And she's like, what? And DeanSchrizlin was there kinda
laughing, and he's like, yeah,their team is incredibly
efficient. So it's been it'sbeen incredible to have this
(41:52):
little team. But then it just itdoes add this other dynamic,
which is John and I the teamneeds direction. The team needs
leadership.
The team needs and each teammember also has their own
individual things that aremotivating them.
Jon (42:10):
Yeah.
Justin (42:11):
And John and I need to and I think this became even
more prescient because you and Iknew we had this retreat that
we're going on. And we're like,what is going to be the focus of
the retreat? Like, we want to dosome work sessions together. And
then we also want to be able tosay, hey, folks, like, we're
(42:31):
steering the ship in thisdirection. You know?
So John and I need to getaligned. We need to decide,
first of all, personally, whatdo we individually want? Right?
Like, we don't want to be goingafter something that's somebody
else's dream. We wanna bepursuing something that we want.
(42:52):
And then we have to translatethat into a vision and a
direction for the team. Thinkthat's what brought up this
whole idea of sabbaticals.
Jon (43:00):
Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin (43:04):
So, yeah, I one one thing that we've talked about
for a while, we talked aboutthis almost from the beginning,
is this idea of it'd be niceafter we'd been working on
transistor for five, six, sevenyears to take a sabbatical.
Mhmm. And as I was talking toJason Cohen, he was also like,
(43:27):
he's like, you know what? Like,also, you've been doing this for
almost eight years. He's like,it's time to take a break.
I will say you and I have notbeen great at taking breaks.
We've taken a few.
Jon (43:41):
I mean, we've taken vacations, but I do feel like we
never really disconnect thatmuch. Yeah. And it's it's hard
for me to do that.
Justin (43:48):
Yeah. It's hard for me too.
Jon (43:49):
Yeah. I mean, the idea of a sabbatical is, like, exciting
but sort of terrifying at onepoint. At the same time like I
think we're both so used to it.It's just like we've been doing
it for so long it's like part ofour lives. We don't hate it.
We're not we're not miserable.So it's not like the stress of
it is forcing us to take asabbatical but I think it would
(44:11):
probably be good to take a breakand like let your mind kind of
wander on other stuff and havesome other, I don't know, goals
lined up that you wanna Mhmm.Personally do or whatever. But,
yeah, the thought of it is
Justin (44:29):
is interesting. Little scary. I I think the hard thing
for me and this isn't just withtransistor, but you and I are
this is why one reason you and Iworked well together for so long
is we like to work. And there'ssomething like, I'm just used to
getting up every day andcranking this crank of work. And
(44:53):
Mhmm.
I have been doing that almostevery single day, almost every
single week since I was 20. Getup every day. Yeah. And I'm just
used to pulling this crank.Same.
Yeah. I yeah. We're this iswe're very similar. And I think
(45:15):
it's it is a bit scary to thinklike, I don't know what my life
would be like if I'm notconsuming this is kind of the
thing I hate about weekends andvacations is that if I truly
disconnect, I've gotten a bitbetter at this, but, like,
normally, I'm just activated ina way that is just kind of
(45:39):
always on consuming information,acting on information, putting
things in motion. And puttingthings in motion, it kind of
requires that you continuallycrank this crank.
You're continuously consumingsome sort of fire hose from
customers and from the internetand from the industry and
(46:01):
keeping your eyes wide open foropportunities and looking at
threats. It's just always on mymind. To think about not being
on that treadmill or thathamster wheel is kind of like
what what would happen to me.Yeah. You know?
Gavin (46:20):
Yeah. I think yeah. I think you'd have
Jon (46:21):
to, like, preplan on replacing that with something
else. Mhmm. Whatever thatwhatever that may be.
Justin (46:27):
But I would be interested if anyone out here
out in listener land has done asabbatical or even you know, one
thing I think you and I havebeen throwing around is like,
man, a three month sabbatical,which is what we've always kind
of thought of, is there'ssomething about that that just
feels overwhelming. And I havefriends that like worked for
automatic, which did threemonths sabbaticals. They said
(46:50):
that sometimes it felt liketheir first sabbaticals were
there's so much pressure leadingup to it. And, you know, then
they ended up feeling like a lotof it was just like it was too
overwhelming thinking about athree month block at first. And
so, you know, I've been talkingabout even just like me taking a
concerted vacation that's two,three, four weeks long and
(47:16):
practicing truly disconnected.
Jon (47:20):
Deleting all deleting all the apps on
Justin (47:22):
your phone. Deleting everything off my phone, just
putting systems in place, like,so other people are you know,
any emails get looked at. Andthe advantage you and I have is
that we are two people. And sowe can trade off. Like, there's
always going to be a leaderavailable.
(47:43):
You know?
Jon (47:43):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for for me, I would I think my concern
now is, like, I would feel badleaving Jason as like the sole
engineer because you know I wasin that spot for what a couple
years and it was it's a lot. Imean you know things run well
but like you know problemshappen and then like Jason has
(48:07):
stuff he wants to do thatdoesn't involve work and he's
not always gonna be around. Sothat'd be something we'd have to
figure out.
Yeah. Talk, you know, talk toJason or like find someone to
help out temporarily or evenpermanently and who knows? Yeah.
Justin (48:19):
I don't It'd be interesting if there's like a
like a on demand consultant thatyou could just bring in for
those times. Like, just say,like, hey. Like, we we just need
somebody to call who knows ourstack and our especially our
infrastructure stuff that canMhmm. Parachute in if we need
(48:44):
somebody. Yeah.
But, I mean, that might just notexist. That's one of the reason
you hire people is that it'sit's it's nice to have, you
know, some folks that can can bekinda always on. Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, there's always gonna beobstacles.
(49:07):
But I do think in terms of,like, compared to a lot of other
teams, we're a small team, butthere is enough help and overlap
there. Mhmm. And the other thingis that you can be disconnected,
but, you know, the rule is, hey.Like, if you need to text me or
(49:29):
call me, you have my text youhave my my text and my phone,
and, you know, I will likely bein somewhere that has cell phone
coverage. So the I mean, unlessI'm like, you know, unless I go
back to Guatemala and hike thatvolcano, I might be but even
then even then, we're we're
Jon (49:50):
Even then, probably cell
Justin (49:51):
phone service. Worst case scenario, if there's no
cell phone service, and let'ssay everything goes to hell for
forty eight hours, it's probablystill gonna be fine. Like, yes,
that would be hard. Yes, itwould be stressful. But even in
the worst case scenario, like,everything's falling down,
there's, you know, servers areon fire and whatever.
(50:15):
Even then, it wouldn't I I thinkit would still be fine. You
know?
Jon (50:23):
Yeah. Could be. I mean, there's, you know, there's
scenarios where it wouldn't be,but that's that's gonna be that
would be pretty rare, I think.
Justin (50:31):
Well, this is good, man. I'm glad glad we got to do it. I
I think let's try I I'm gonnatry to put this on our schedule
weekly again and just see how itfeels. Man. But if I put it on
weekly, then we might skip
Jon (50:47):
Maybe month. Maybe it
Justin (50:48):
would be month. But at least I'll put it on the
schedule. You might not believethis, but we still have people
supporting us on Patreon.
Jon (50:55):
I can't believe it.
Justin (50:57):
All these years.
Jon (50:58):
I mean, that's probably thanks to you actually posting
some episodes once in a whilewith other people.
Justin (51:03):
That's right.
Jon (51:03):
So thank you.
Justin (51:04):
That's right. Yeah. We've got Pascal from sharpen.
Page. We got rewardful.com.
We've got Greg Park, MitchellDavis from recruitkit.com.au.
Marcel Folle from wearebold.af.Bill Condo. Ward from
memberspace.com. Evandro Sassy.
(51:25):
Now we're getting into the namesthat have been here forever.
Austin Loveless, Michael Sitver,Colin Gray from Alitu. Nice to
see you, Colin. And Dave Giunta.
Jon (51:36):
Giunta. You got to meet Dave.
Justin (51:38):
Yeah. Dave was at the wedding. Dave and I became fast
buds there. It was Yeah.
Jon (51:44):
Dave's great.
Justin (51:45):
We've I was just texting with Dave yesterday. I I I have
a long text message thread withDave. Yeah. Yeah. It's been nice
to keep that keep thatconnection going.
Jon (51:58):
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks to everyone for keeping, like,
continually supporting us. Yeah.During our absence.
Justin (52:06):
And also just being around, you know, that's that's
one thing I think I've realizedis about this show is, you know,
we started this journey and thenjust so many other people joined
us. And whether it was justlistening, whether it was
listening and writing us anemail, whether it was listening
(52:27):
and, you know, sending us a DMwith some ideas, whether so many
listeners became customers.Yeah. Some listeners became
employees, like Josh Andertonwas a longtime listener. You
know?
Jon (52:41):
I mean, we just had an we just had a customer the other
day say something in ourcustomer support chat about,
like, he, you know, enjoyedlistening to the early episodes
Justin (52:50):
Isn't that wild?
Jon (52:51):
Of this podcast. Yeah. It's like, what?
Justin (52:53):
I'm just blown away by it. We appreciate it. If you
want us to be back every week,let us know.
Jon (53:01):
Just yell yell at us. Yeah. Just
Justin (53:04):
every every Friday, just, send us a message saying,
hey, guys, can you pleaserecord? And then Yeah. Maybe if
we get enough nudges, we'll getback on the mics.
Jon (53:13):
Alright,
Justin (53:14):
everyone. Till next time.
Jon (53:15):
Yeah. See you next time.
Justin (53:16):
Bye.
I do the intro, I guess.
Justin (00:01):
You do the intro. Do you remember how?
Jon (00:02):
Yeah. Sure. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your SaaS. This
is the behind the scenes storyof building a web app in 2025.
I'm Jon Buda, a softwareengineer.
Justin (00:12):
And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing.
Follow along as we build and runtransistor.fm. Jon, we're back.
Jon (00:32):
Yeah. It's been, it's been a while. Two years, which is
hard hard to believe.
Justin (00:37):
I've missed doing this I've missed doing this with you.
Jon (00:40):
Yeah.
Justin (00:41):
Yeah. Maybe we just gotta re reboot it. Every week,
we could just get on a call likethis.
Jon (00:47):
I think we've we've probably tried to do this, like,
a dozen times. Yeah. And itnever worked out.
Justin (00:53):
I mean, a lot was going on.
Jon (00:54):
Part part yeah. There's a lot going on. Part of it is this
is not necessarily the thingthat gives me energy like you.
Justin (01:04):
What are we doing here, Jon? What is it is it drain your
battery a little bit?
Jon (01:11):
A little bit. Yeah.
Justin (01:12):
Okay. Okay. I mean, that's the heart. We'll we'll
talk about that later. I Ithere's a great topic about
burnout that we could talk abouta bit later.
But, yeah, it's been two years.I think the last time we peered
on an episode together was ourNashville team retreat episode.
And then the last episode whereit was just the two of us,
(01:35):
04/19/2023. Jeez. That's rightafter we hired Josh Anderton,
and we did an update episode.
So
Jon (01:44):
Wow.
Justin (01:44):
It has been a while.
Jon (01:46):
It's been a while. I don't yeah.
Justin (01:47):
Nothing's really happened
Jon (01:48):
since then. Right?
Justin (01:49):
You had a lot happen.
Jon (01:52):
You There was a lot.
Justin (01:54):
What what's going on in the last two years since people
last heard from you?
Jon (01:58):
The last two years, honestly, beyond one year, I
don't even remember. But thelast two years there's been a
lot. So I got married in October2024. Yeah. Right?
What year Yeah is 2024. Whichwas super fun in Guatemala.
Justin (02:17):
It was really fun.
Jon (02:18):
You were there. There was a lot of a lot of friends of the
podcast and friends ofTransistor there.
Justin (02:23):
By the way Family. One of my favorite trips of all
time. Just like Yeah. It'sGetting to meet up with all of
your friends. It was weird beingwith people that are all our age
and just seeing the different Imean, for you, it probably felt
like a high school reunionbecause a lot of those people
you grew up with.
Jon (02:44):
Yeah.
Justin (02:44):
But for me, I was just like, it also felt like a high
school reunion. And getting tomeet all these people is like,
some people are just havingbabies for the first time. Some
people like me, like, my kidsare all, you know, older. People
all over the map and then justgetting to hang out, like, while
you and you and Wendy weregetting married and doing all
(03:07):
the photos and stuff, we wereout exploring Guatemala. So it
felt like summer camp.
It was so fun.
Jon (03:13):
It was really fun. Yeah. Was a it was a really nice time
to see everyone. Yeah. Guatemalais a beautiful place.
And you and and your wife andWendy and I all kind of traveled
a little bit together afterwardsfor a couple days too, which was
Justin (03:26):
super Went to Lake Atitlan? Is that how you call
it?
Jon (03:29):
Yeah. Atitlan. Yeah. Yeah. And hung out at a nice hotel and
just kind of relaxed a littlebit.
Justin (03:35):
Vernon and I still talk about that too. Just the most
beautiful, like, sunsets. It wasyou felt like you were just in a
different world.
Jon (03:45):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a super relaxing place.
Justin (03:47):
Except for except for when Lauren and I got caught in
a sudden downpour. And then
Jon (03:52):
That's true.
Justin (03:52):
We had to, like
Jon (03:53):
And we had to had to call the boat for you or something to
come rescue you?
Justin (03:57):
Yeah. We were like over like, we were staying on one
side of the lake, and thenLerner and I decided to go out
kinda late in the afternoon tothe other side of the lake. And
we didn't realize that the ferryonly ran until a certain time.
And so we missed the ferry, andthen it just started downpouring
like this crazy storm. And wehad to message you on WhatsApp
(04:20):
and say, please send a boat forus.
Jon (04:23):
Yeah.
Justin (04:24):
Some guy came and rescued us in the rain and oh,
man.
Jon (04:27):
Yeah. That was wild. Oh, man. Yeah. But that was that was
all super super fun wedding.
Justin (04:33):
Was that just a year that was just the like, it'll be
your one year anniversary thisOctober.
Jon (04:38):
Wow, man. Yeah. A lot it was a busy year. So following
that, we had been talking awhile, my wife and I, about, I
don't know, potentially movingsomewhere. Mhmm.
So we decided to do a road tripin March for six weeks across
The US, Western US mostly. Andthe first place we stopped was
(04:59):
Fort Collins in Colorado and wehave friends here, a friend of
mine that I grew up with who youmet at Yeah, the
Justin (05:05):
he's hilarious.
Jon (05:06):
Him and his him and his wife and kids. So we stayed here
for a couple weeks and so it wasthe first stop on the tour and
they had a friend who was arealtor and we were just like,
well let's look around and seewhat's around. Not really
thinking we would you know finda place or buy a place and we
found a place and we put in anoffer and got it and then
(05:29):
continued on the road trip forfour more weeks and then you
know came back to Chicago andrealized we had to sell two
different places and move andpack up two places and you know
find a moving company and figureout all that moving cross
country. So that that was likethe month of May was incredibly
busy. And then we we finally gotwe finally got here in the June
(05:54):
and everything went reallysmoothly.
Both, you know, selling andbuying and finding movers. We
found some good movers. Yeah.I'm glad that's over, but it was
it was a lot.
Justin (06:04):
I mean, your place looks pretty set up. Your your place
looks more set up than my place.I still don't have art up in on
some of my walls.
Jon (06:12):
Oh, no. We have, yeah, we have a guest room that's just
the bed is full of artwork and acouple boxes, and the garage is
full of stuff. So it's comingalong. It's it's been really
nice.
Justin (06:22):
I remember you saying you're going on that road trip
because I you'd been kind of,like, not happy in Chicago for a
while. Just wanted to getsomewhere else, was ready to
move Yeah. Was ready to trysomething else. I think this
also relates to this burnouttopic we're gonna talk about in
a bit. But and I I remembersaying, well, you should just go
and check some places out.
And then I I couldn't believe itwhen you, like, stopped in Fort
(06:45):
Collins and you're like, oh,yeah. We put in an offer. We're
buying this place.
Jon (06:49):
We had been here before years ago and had an idea we
liked it, but we just reallyliked it when we stayed here.
And everyone's all the neighborsand everyone's just been, like,
super nice and welcoming. It's anice change of pace from
Chicago. Although, you know,we'll miss Chicago and it's an
amazing city, but we've beenthere for a long time and just
Justin (07:06):
Looking for something different. Yeah.
Jon (07:08):
Something different. Yeah. And so we did it. And it was
yeah. Those few months were,like, really tough to get work
done and and, like, any momentumon things.
There was just, a million otherthings going on. Yeah. But we
did it. And now we're here.
Justin (07:26):
Yeah. I I mean, and this is what when we started the
company, this was one of theoriginal visions is that we
said, okay, if we could just getto the point where this replaces
our salaries, and then beyondthat, if it just if the company
gives us room and margin to havea good life to, you know, I need
(07:49):
to move. Mhmm. We can move. Youknow?
There's not a big deal. Yeah.Both you and I have both bought
new houses and moved since westarted the company.
Jon (08:00):
Yeah.
Justin (08:01):
It it's it's enabled, I think, more than we could have
really ever asked for ordreamed. Yeah. It's been
incredible.
Jon (08:09):
Yeah. I've talked about that with a lot of people of
just like how grateful I am forthe company and coworkers and
and you and having this all workout because I I don't know how
anyone would move across thecountry with a regular job.
Justin (08:24):
Yeah. I
Jon (08:25):
don't I don't understand how anyone would do it.
Justin (08:27):
Yeah. You you you I mean, you have
Jon (08:28):
to I mean, people do all the time.
Justin (08:29):
You'd to use vacation time.
Jon (08:30):
Take time off. Yeah. It's
Justin (08:32):
it's having having the capacity for a company to have
the capacity for people to livetheir lives feels first of all,
it doesn't happen enough. Andthen, yeah, when you're in that
position, you just feel superfortunate. Like, wow, this is
great. We get to do this. That'sawesome.
Jon (08:55):
Yeah. That's great.
Justin (08:56):
That's awesome, man. Yeah. Well, I've this past
summer, I well, not this pastsummer. Yeah. This past summer,
we we moved my second oldest outto Toronto to go to college out
there.
So now I have two kids out ofthe house. Sadie and Marty are
both in school. And then I justhave two at home, grade 11,
(09:18):
grade 12. So I'm I'm enteringinto an interesting phase where
I've been mostly I mean, mostlymy whole life. Mostly my whole
life, I've just been focused ontrying to grind and provide for
my family.
(09:40):
And it's been it's beeninteresting as the kids have
started to move out, and then asthe older two are just more
independent, how for the firsttime, I feel like I have the
space to kind of beintrospective and go, wait, what
(10:01):
what do I want? Am I a humanbeing? Like, what what what's
going on with me? You know? Andrealizing what a weight that's
been on me to have, you know andthere's still, you know I'm
still helping my kids out whilethey go to college.
And, you know, there's stillcaregiving lots of caregiving
(10:25):
ahead of me, but it's certainlydifferent than the other phases
of family life.
Jon (10:31):
Yeah.
Justin (10:32):
And, yeah, I it's it's again, I think having I'm just
so grateful that the companythat Transistor is at this phase
right now where as I'm now 45and thinking all these probably
45 year old thoughts like, whoam I? What do I want? What do I
(10:53):
want for the next phase of mylife?
Jon (10:56):
Why why does my back hurt?
Justin (10:57):
My back hurt all the time. And and kind of even
opening up, having the energyand time to even focus on things
that I would have never I Ididn't really have energy to
focus on before, personally.Yeah. It's been it's been really
(11:18):
nice to have that space. And,yeah, feels like I'm at a
another kind of pivot point.
We'll see what what happens.
Jon (11:27):
It seems it seems like it kind of based on the the stuff
you've been sending me and theand the things we've talked
Justin (11:33):
about Yeah. Recently. Well, let's let's get into some
of that. So Aaron Francis writesthis great weekly newsletter. I
think he calls it this week atTryhard Studios, which is his
company.
And from the 09/05/2025 issue,was this article and a series of
tweets about how burnout mightnot just be from, you know,
(11:58):
burning yourself out physicallyand mentally. Know, you're
burning the candle at both ends.That's our typical definition of
burnout. And Aaron says the ideathat working hard does not lead
to burnout, but the lack of hopeleads to burnout. So if you're
working really, really hard forsomething that you don't believe
(12:20):
will pay off, it's super easy tolose motivation.
And that's happened to me in thepast. If you believe that the
thing you're working on willhave a payoff, the amount of
work almost doesn't matter.
Jon (12:30):
Yeah.
Justin (12:31):
Yeah. There's something about that that idea. Now, I I
still think that the traditionalform of burnout exists, but this
idea that there's this otherkind of burnout. So if burnout
is like a kind of numbness orpersistent lack of motivation, a
(12:52):
kind of deadening inside Yeah.You know, that can be caused by,
you know, depression andoverwhelm.
And, you know, I've hadentrepreneurial friends who've
gotten shingles. They've been sostressed out. So stress and
overwhelm, you know, thatdefinitely is one form of
burnout. But this idea of like,man, I'm I'm working on
(13:17):
something, but I no longer seethe reason. I no longer am
motivated by this.
I think I can identify.
Jon (13:25):
Yeah. I can identify to that. Maybe not in transistor. I
really haven't felt thatnecessarily with transistor, but
certainly previous jobs whereyou just like you reach a point
and you're like, I don't careYeah. Anymore.
And you just sort of I mean, Iguess I guess it's burnout, but
it's just like, don't reallywant to be working on this. I
don't care about the end result.And then at that point, it's I
(13:46):
feel like it's just over and yougotta find a way out or
something.
Justin (13:49):
For me, what was kind of striking about this whole
concept is that there's times Ithink I haven't realized I've
been in this mode. Like, I justkeep going to the office, and
then I would get to the officeand I'd be, like, staring at my
screen and being like, how comeI can't get going? What's what's
(14:10):
what's going on here?
Jon (14:11):
And you've and you felt that with Transistor too?
Justin (14:14):
I think sometimes in the industry yeah. And and also just
maybe also just wondering, like,what's the motive? I mean, a
longtime listeners to the showwill know that this isn't the
first time we've kind of talkedabout these feelings. And I had
this great call with JasonCohen, the the founder of WP
(14:34):
Engine. And he said, you know,Justin, what are you feeling?
And I said, well, I don't know.Like, what do I have? What do I
have the right to feel anythingabout? Like, it's you know,
things are great. I'm healthy.
My kids are healthy. My wife'shealthy. We we got a house. We
got the car. We've, you know,we've got this company.
(14:55):
We got a great team. It's stillgrowing. Like, what do I have to
be unhappy about? And he said,well, actually, the it's super
common at your stage. We've beendoing transistor almost eight
years, I think.
Yeah. And he says, it's justsuper common for for founders at
this stage to be like, like,what what are we doing this for
(15:19):
now? And in the beginning, it'sjust so clear. Like, when we
started recording the show, I'vebeen going back to old episodes.
And one thing I gotta say ishaving this record of everything
like, I'd forgotten about somany of the conversations we've
had.
Jon (15:36):
Yeah. I need I haven't I honestly haven't really re
relistened to many of those atall. Should do that.
Justin (15:41):
It's I find it kind of healthy, like, just yeah.
There's something I mean, interms of reflecting back and
having perspective, it's sohelpful to have this record of
us talking things out. And atthe beginning of the show, you
(16:02):
know, we were motivated by,like, we're trying to build this
product. We're trying to buildthis company. We're trying to
replace this thing.
And then the motivation changes,you know. And so I don't think
it's existential or anything. Ithink I'm just again at a point
where I'm like, okay, well, mykids are almost out of the
house.
Jon (16:21):
Mhmm.
Justin (16:22):
I'm 45. And I think the podcast hosting industry has
definitely reached a point ofmaturity. Like, as I've gone and
talked to the podcast industryis so unique in that the
competitors are actually prettyfriendly with each other.
Jon (16:42):
Yeah. It seems like we're
Justin (16:44):
recently lost Todd Cochran, the founder of
Blueberry, who's a competitor.And he, you know, he was a
friend. And his death, like,affected a lot of folks in the
industry. But, you know,speaking to everybody, I think
(17:06):
we've all recognized, like,podcast hosting now is a I mean,
you said this too. It's kind ofa commodity.
It's we've matured.
Jon (17:14):
Yeah. They're all all the competitors are basically the
same with, like, differentlittle, you know, different
little things on top thatthey've come up with on their
own or little differences hereand there. But ultimately, it's
like the same
Justin (17:26):
Yeah.
Jon (17:27):
Stuff.
Justin (17:27):
And so, yeah, I think it's also been helpful for me to
go back. And I've just beenlooking at, for example, all of
our historical revenue numbersand looking at when, you know,
when did we really grow and whathave we done since. And the
whole industry kind ofexperienced this, you know, you
and I started Transistor whenthe market had just kind of
(17:51):
expanded because of cereal,because podcasts were just kind
of in the public consciousnessfor the first time. Saturday
Night Live was doing skits onpodcasts for the first time. You
know, all of sudden, it waslike, this was a new thing.
It wasn't new, but this was anew thing that a lot of people
were discovering. And the marketwent from being kind of this
big, smaller to it just likeexpanded really quick. And so
(18:15):
our first, you know, twentyeighteen, twenty nineteen, we're
just gobbling up market share.And then the pandemic happened.
And again, perspective is sointeresting because at the time,
you and I were kind ofstruggling.
It was just like the pandemicand all the politics and all,
you know, the shutdown. It waslike depressing. And I I think
(18:40):
at the time, we didn't evenquite recognize what was
happening. But the company grewa ton in 2020. Like, it would if
you look at the numbers, it'slike in the hundreds of
percentage points.
Like, it's it it was just amassive increase. And the same
(19:03):
with 2021. And since then, we'vebasically grown every year, but
by the same amount. So that thatchunk of new revenue we're
getting every year has notchanged a lot. And there's part
of it for me, I think I was justlike, man, we've built a lot of
(19:24):
things since then.
And, you know, part of buildingsomething is just because you
wanna build it, because youwanna see it in the world as a
podcaster, because I wanna useit myself. But another
motivating part is like, oh,man. It'd be nice to see a
direct correlation between
Jon (19:41):
Yeah.
Justin (19:42):
This thing that we're building and then new revenue.
Jon (19:45):
Yeah. But I think yeah. But I guess going back to your point
of like at the beginning, we hadthese concrete goals of like,
all right, we want to make thismuch so that at this point we
can make this our full time job.Then we want to be each making
this much amount of money atthis point in time. Now it's
like, yeah sure we want somemore customers and more revenue
(20:06):
but like to what end, what doesthat even achieve?
Like it's not going to changeour lives anymore. So that
motivating factor isn't there. Imean it's like I still get
motivated by building certainfeatures that are cool and
exciting and customers mightlike it but at the end of the
day, it might not really movethe needle or it might. And if
(20:27):
it does move the needle, likewhat does moving the needle
mean? It does.
It's not going to dramaticallychange our lives. Yeah. Which I
think maybe is part of theburnout discussion of like what
are you working towards becauseif it's just numbers and money,
it's we're already at thatpoint.
Justin (20:48):
Yeah. What's the what's the point?
Jon (20:51):
What's the motivating factor? So, yeah, it's I don't
know I don't know that we knowthe answer to that at the
moment. Right? Because we'vebeen talking about it.
Justin (20:58):
Well, and this is what was so helpful about that chat
with, Jason Cohen is he kind ofgave me this framework. I can
link it in the show notes, butit's a framework for getting
what you want as a startupfounder. And he basically says,
okay. Well, you each John andJustin, you each need to ask,
(21:18):
what do you want? And to beclear about it.
And it might just be reaffirmingsomething you've always felt.
Like, maybe like in your case,maybe it hasn't changed that
much. And maybe for me, it haschanged, and I need to be honest
about it. But just gettingreally clear about, okay, now,
at this stage of my life, whatis the next thing I want that's
(21:42):
going to be motivating for me?Or it could even just be a
thing.
I mean, another thing that waskind of maybe affecting me was
going, you know, do I like beingin this industry? Like, I I need
to ask myself that question.And, you know, every time I go
to a podcast conference, I kindof have this feeling of like, do
(22:04):
I still like this? There's beenso much more focus on YouTube.
And, you know, the bigcentralized platforms were
already kind of in there.
And it for me, there wassomething about these big
platforms dominating theconversation that was
demotivating. Because I'vealways been into the independent
(22:27):
publishing and the openness ofRSS. And, you know, for a while,
that really fired me up gettingmore involved in the podcast
standards project. And, youknow, being like, okay, we're
gonna, like, improve RSS. We'regonna innovate on top of RSS.
But even that, you know, itthere's like I think the worst
(22:49):
feeling in the world is justthis feeling of like, is is this
effort that I'm applying to thisthing, is it worth the output
that we're getting? Andlikewise, is there somewhere
else I could be applying thateffort that would be maybe more
(23:12):
motivating or energizing? Andit's so hard to know. Because
again, on one hand, things aregreat.
Jon (23:22):
Yeah.
Justin (23:22):
And on the other hand, there's part of me that's like,
I wonder. I wonder. And maybethere's also for me, one
difference between you and I isjust like, because I still have
all these kids, there's like,through college, supporting the
kids through college, I juststill have, you know, probably
(23:43):
at least another decade ofhelping my kids get established
as adults. And there's stillpart of me that is still kind of
building up my my personal nestegg even for retirement and
things like that. Sofinancially, I'm still looking
at my okay.
I gotta support my kids throughthis. And then and then it's
(24:05):
like, oh, and then I stillgotta, like, continue to build
up a good nest egg for when Iretire. And so, yeah, I'm just
always thinking about at 45, howmany how many more years do I
have in me?
Jon (24:21):
Right. Yeah. I mean, I think about the same thing and
that, you know, we don't havekids and but it's at the same
time, it's like, you got toprepare for some unknown future
of like how much money are wegonna need or what's the
retirement like or Yeah. Howmuch is all this stuff gonna
cost? It's like totally unknownat this point.
It's not I don't think you candepend on anything anymore.
Justin (24:41):
Yeah. I mean and even as stable as transistor is, I think
in the back of my mind, there'salways like, uh-huh. Maybe we
need to hedge our bets. Youknow? Maybe we need to and you
see like, Ian Landsman atHelpspot is doing this right
now.
You know? He's he's building asecond product. And, you know,
Helpspot's doing fine, butthere's always that feeling of
(25:02):
like, okay, I got this thingthat's working. But wouldn't
wouldn't I feel like a dummy ifin ten years, you know,
everything had fallen apart andI hadn't also made a backup
plan, you know?
Jon (25:14):
And that's and that's that is one option we could do is, as
a company, to spin off a newthing. But I don't think we've
necessarily had any of thoseideas. A few a few here and
there, they're I think they'reall kind of related to
podcasting and maybe
Justin (25:29):
Yeah. I think if we did something else, it would have to
be adjacent to podcasting.Personally, I would like it to
be in the creator market. Youknow? I've been thinking a lot
about spots still, spots.fm,which was this idea you and I
(25:49):
had early on.
And at the time, we didn'tpursue it because we were like
we started going down that pathand we're like, what are we
doing? We're two people. Wecan't we can't do this. We
decided to just, you know,double down on the core
business. But there is somethingabout sponsorships.
And I think enabling creators tohave any piece of content, which
(26:14):
was the original vision ofSpots, any piece of content
sponsored, where you could havethese sponsored blocks kind of
everywhere, you know, and peoplecan just grab a block, grab a
spot, and say, oh, you're you'remaking a new YouTube video on
the pharmaceutical industry.Well, I want to sponsor that
(26:35):
episode. Or you write a weeklynewsletter. Well, I want to
sponsor your next six months. Oryou you have sponsored posts on
Instagram.
Well, I want to sponsor five ofthem. And that might be worth
looking at again, you know, thatthat might be one adjacent idea
that we could pursue. The goingback to Jason Cohen's framework,
(27:00):
the the one thing I really lovedthat was, you know, identifying
what each person wants in apartnership. And then he said
both partners need to be equallycommitted to helping the other
person get what they want. Andit's so simple, but I just
thought that was such abeautiful way of of describing
(27:21):
really any any partnership ormarriage or anything.
Having that that idea of, okay,this person's an individual and
they have things they want. I'man individual. I have things I
want. And the key is we justneed to be equally committed to
(27:43):
helping each other get what wewant. Now that's not to say
everything's realistic oreverything's gonna happen.
Jon (27:49):
But Yeah. I mean, you know, if you want a yacht, like,
Justin (27:52):
that's I do
Jon (27:53):
want a yacht. Not gonna happen. Okay.
Justin (27:58):
And the other thing that was helpful from Jason was just
saying, like, this is this iskind of a process you need to do
every year. I think we have donea version of this most years
where you and I have gottentogether and at least, you know,
reviewed things and said, okay,what do we want? And and he says
it's messy, you know, like, yousay, okay, you know, what what
(28:22):
would need to be true, forexample this is such a great
question. What would need to betrue for Justin to really like
this industry again? And on onehand, know, one thing that I've
been trying is like, well, Icould get more involved with
podcast standards and investmore time and leadership and
(28:45):
energy in the Podcast StandardsProject.
So I've been trying that out.And there's part of that's been
really gratifying. You know, apart part of me going to this
conference in Dallas, I waslike, okay. Well, if if if I'm
not feeling it there, I'm done.You know?
And maybe unfortunately, orfortunately, there's just so
(29:09):
many people that came up to meindividually and said, I really
appreciate your efforts on thisPodcast Standards Project. And
so okay. That you know, there'spart of that that kind of that
is motivating. But what elsewould need to be true for me to
really feel good about thepodcast industry? Unfortunately,
(29:30):
it would mean Apple Podcastswould need to step up in a much
bigger way.
And, you know, I think Jason'skind of framing of this is if if
you're expecting if you'rebasing your decisions on a hope
(29:51):
that something will be true, andthat thing is just very unlikely
to be true, then you've got toconsider that in terms of, like,
what you're gonna do.
Jon (30:01):
Yeah. I mean, as as close as we are with the Apple people
and as nice as they are, like,they're not they just they do
their own thing, right, on theirown timeline.
Justin (30:09):
And Yeah.
Jon (30:09):
Who knows what that is? And usually, it's, they announce it
the last minute.
Justin (30:13):
Yeah. And it Man, it's yeah. It's kind of frustrating.
Jon (30:18):
Yeah. A little bit. And But
Justin (30:20):
You know? But this is the thing. Like, it's that's
kind of like, you know, you'vegot a friend, and you're like,
man, I I'm tired of this friendalways, you know, doing this.
And it's like, well, maybe youshould just not go to the bar
with your friend anymore. Youknow?
And so I don't know what theanswer is, but I think just
(30:41):
processing some of that has been
Jon (30:43):
Yeah. I think from my from my side of things, it's a little
different. I mean, I don't go toas many conferences as you. I
don't I mean I'm in the podcastindustry but I don't necessarily
feel like that all the timebecause I'm just building the
technology and that's what'sinteresting to me is writing
code and building things thatare interesting and fun and just
(31:04):
you know, I like to see ourcustomers use it and experience
it and hopefully like it butit's not like I feel the
industry bearing down on me inany way. Aside from the video
stuff, which is a thing we'vetalked about for a long time and
it's sort of like this, I don'tknow, elephant in the room of
like, how do we do this theright way if we're gonna do it
(31:25):
and try to like, I don't know,not even compete with YouTube
but just like, I don't know,operate alongside of them and
just give in and be like, well,we're not gonna beat them.
So we might as well join
Justin (31:37):
them Yeah.
Jon (31:37):
Or something.
Justin (31:38):
I mean, the podcast industry has kinda always had
that that because as independentas it is, like, the the protocol
is independent, but thedistribution has always been,
you know, Apple Podcasts. Andthen there was other but even,
like, overcast. Like, we we Iwould love to get a hold of
(32:00):
Marco, And it's he's just hardto get ahold of. He does he's
doing his thing and so Mhmm.We're all kind of, like,
dependent on each other.
And there is more collaborationpossible. That's, again, one
reason I got involved withPodcast Standards Project was I
think we can advocate togetheras a group of hosting companies
(32:23):
and independent apps. And, youknow, we could speak as a group
to Apple. We can speak as agroup to Spotify and to YouTube.
Yeah.
But there is this dependencythat, you know, to participate
in the industry I mean, you feltthis. Like, there's been some
things you've had to build withApple and Spotify and YouTube
(32:47):
that are real headaches, and wejust have to do it because it's
just gotta get done. You know, Ithink those from the engineering
perspective, those have been themost demotivating. That's when
it's like
Jon (32:58):
Yeah. Those are pretty demotivating. Yeah. Some of the
recent stuff too even. I mean,this is a tangent, but yeah.
It's I was trying to get somestuff done with an integration
on my own and then once Jasonand I finally just sort of like
started tag teaming gettogether, it was like way more
exciting and just like way it'sso yeah, just it's easy to
forget that working with someoneon something is way more
(33:22):
motivating than not.
Justin (33:23):
Yeah. I think that's a good point. Like diagnosing
burnout or lack of motivation,sometimes the answer is, like, I
think they call that bodydoubling.
Jon (33:33):
Yeah. I I read about that recently only. Yeah. Like, the
other day. And I was like, oh,interesting.
Justin (33:39):
I've definitely discovered that. Like, I, you
know, I I I've hired my kids tohelp me do certain things and
with the with my Canadiancompany. And that's, like, one
of the things I'll often do isI'll be like, call them up and
say, I just need you to be onthe phone with me while I do
(34:00):
these taxes. Yeah. And it is waymore motivating to just have
someone there
Jon (34:06):
Yeah.
Justin (34:07):
To be talking it out with them. You know, I'll get
frustrated and my daughter willbe like, dad, like, just calm
down. Okay. What's, you know,three things you could do right
now to Yeah. Just we're socialcreatures, you know?
Jon (34:20):
Yeah.
Justin (34:22):
So I think but even that is an interesting observation,
which is I think what I likeabout this kind of reflecting
time is it it helps me toquestion my reality. So I'll
give you an example. You and Ihave always been committed to
remote work. Remote work is inso many ways awesome. It enabled
(34:46):
you and I to start this company.
It enables us to have peoplethat live all over the world. It
gives you all of us flexibility.You know, people have tried
moving to Italy for a littlewhile or going on a trip and
just working while they're onthe trip. It is incredible in so
many ways. But it's also kind ofrefreshing to take a look at and
(35:10):
go, in so many ways, work sucks.
It sucks to not go into anoffice and have people there,
you know, and and Yeah. Yeah.And be like, hey, like, can we
just work on this together sideby side? There's something about
that that is amazing and thatwe're missing out on. Everything
(35:34):
is a series of pros and cons,but it's it's nice to at least
reflect on how could this bedifferent?
Or am I happy doing this? WouldI be happier if it was
different?
Jon (35:46):
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, we have our we have our retreat
coming up next week. In a coupledays, we're leaving. I mean,
it's probably something weshould talk about, but it's I
feel like every time we gettogether as a team it's like we
get really excited and motivatedabout certain things and then we
we all go home and it's like itjust sort of slowly not really
(36:10):
fizzles out but like you losethat momentum.
And then some of it sticks and,you know, some of it doesn't but
like I feel like if we weremaybe all together more often,
it would kind of, you know,linger on a little more.
Justin (36:26):
That's a good point. I didn't even think about that.
But you're right. Like, I mean,again, it's pros and cons. There
is a real advantage.
You know, I'm here in thiscoworking place, and I have my
own little cave here, my ownlittle office. And the truth is
a lot of time I close the door,and I'm just trying to focus on
stuff in my own world. Sothere's an advantage to that.
(36:46):
But Michael, who's on our team,is here in Vernon. And every
once in a while, he'll stop bythe coworking place, and he'll
knock on my door and say, hey, Ijust want to ask you about this,
or can we work on this together?
And that there's an energy aboutthat, which is just running into
somebody. And it kind of the thethread. So if you start a thread
(37:09):
at the retreat, and it's like,you know what we're gonna do?
We're gonna focus on this. We'regonna build this.
Know, like monetization issomething we've wanted to do
from the day you and I gottogether. We have mock ups of
like a Stripe donation featurefrom almost like the first week.
(37:30):
And I think part of the reasonwe haven't been able to execute
on that is if the thread justkind of gets lost. It's easy to
get lost when you're not likerunning to get into each other
all the time. Like, if you and Iwere in the same town, and it's
like, hey, John, let's go forcoffee.
And we're we walked to thecoffee shop. And as we're
(37:51):
talking, it's like, oh, man,whatever happened to that? Like,
we we gotta we gotta do thatthing, you know? I was just in
Toronto, and went and hung outwith Adam Waddon at his house.
And it was so interesting.
He has this beautiful home. Butthe first like, you go in the
entryway, and then the firstroom off to the left is this
kind of big workspace. And he'skind of set it up as like a co
(38:13):
working space for him and Steve,his co founder. Steve comes by
every single day.
Jason (38:20):
Really?
Justin (38:21):
Every single day. And it's just kind of like and while
I was there, Caleb Porzio haddriven up from Buffalo, and he
was working out of that littlespace. And so there every single
day, Adam wakes up, goes andmakes himself a cup of coffee,
goes in, and some days Steve'ssitting there at the desk. And
(38:43):
that's that's just such aninteresting
Jon (38:48):
Yeah.
Justin (38:48):
To see how other people work and how they keep their
energy and motivation. And therest of their team is is remote.
But yeah, there's there'sthere's something about being in
person that is very motivatingthat you just lose when you're
remote.
Jon (39:06):
Yeah, definitely.
Justin (39:07):
So and maybe there's ways to this is what, again, is
great about Jason Cohen'sframework because then you
you're at least imagining, like,okay. What you can say, okay.
You know what? I want to work ona team that's more colocated.
Okay.
Well, let's go explore that. Andthen you just explore all the
different paths and be like,okay. Well, I could move to Fort
Collins and be like, oh, thenI'd have to live in The US. I
(39:29):
don't really wanna live in TheUS. John's not gonna move to
Canada.
He just got settled in FortCollins. Okay. What's what are
some of the things? I mean, wecould just get way more
disciplined about flying to seeeach other. We could have more
team retreats.
We could make sure that the nextpeople we hire are in our
(39:55):
respective towns. So we justhave, you know Yeah. There's all
sorts of things you couldexplore there. And or it could
even just be, like, something assimple as, like, if if you and I
record a podcast morefrequently, we feel more
connected and more motivated.And
Jon (40:12):
Yeah. That's true. Yeah.
Justin (40:13):
There there's all sorts of ways you can Yeah.
Jon (40:15):
Could be that.
Justin (40:16):
You can you can kinda manage that. Running a company
is interesting because I I thinkthis is something that you just
can't keep having to learn is,you know, you and I come
together to work on this idea.And even that, any sort of
partnership is already has itsown challenge. Like, you are
(40:41):
kind of glued to that otherperson in a way.
Jon (40:45):
Mhmm.
Justin (40:45):
And and there's this this dynamic that Jason's
exposed, which is, yeah, we bothhave to be kind of committed to
get helping the other person getwhat they want. It And was so
easy in the beginning because,basically, it was like, we both
wanted the freedom.
Jon (41:01):
It was the same thing. Yeah. We wanted the exact same
thing. And now, I don't know,maybe not.
Justin (41:05):
Maybe not. But also, I think what what's interesting
is, you know, one of the thingsthat I think ended up being
motivating for us was like, youknow what? Like, it'd be like,
you wanted to work with anotherengineer, and I wanted to work
some other people, and I didn'twant to do customer support all
the time. And, you know, soYeah. We ended up hiring other
people to help us.
It's been great. Like, peopleare continuously astounded. I
(41:30):
again, when I was in Dallas, wewere sitting around at this
table with a very large podcastcompany that does advertising
everything. And she turned to meand she goes, how many people
are on your team? I said, oh, wewe have six.
And she's like, what? And DeanSchrizlin was there kinda
laughing, and he's like, yeah,their team is incredibly
efficient. So it's been it'sbeen incredible to have this
(41:52):
little team. But then it just itdoes add this other dynamic,
which is John and I the teamneeds direction. The team needs
leadership.
The team needs and each teammember also has their own
individual things that aremotivating them.
Jon (42:10):
Yeah.
Justin (42:11):
And John and I need to and I think this became even
more prescient because you and Iknew we had this retreat that
we're going on. And we're like,what is going to be the focus of
the retreat? Like, we want to dosome work sessions together. And
then we also want to be able tosay, hey, folks, like, we're
(42:31):
steering the ship in thisdirection. You know?
So John and I need to getaligned. We need to decide,
first of all, personally, whatdo we individually want? Right?
Like, we don't want to be goingafter something that's somebody
else's dream. We wanna bepursuing something that we want.
(42:52):
And then we have to translatethat into a vision and a
direction for the team. Thinkthat's what brought up this
whole idea of sabbaticals.
Jon (43:00):
Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin (43:04):
So, yeah, I one one thing that we've talked about
for a while, we talked aboutthis almost from the beginning,
is this idea of it'd be niceafter we'd been working on
transistor for five, six, sevenyears to take a sabbatical.
Mhmm. And as I was talking toJason Cohen, he was also like,
(43:27):
he's like, you know what? Like,also, you've been doing this for
almost eight years. He's like,it's time to take a break.
I will say you and I have notbeen great at taking breaks.
We've taken a few.
Jon (43:41):
I mean, we've taken vacations, but I do feel like we
never really disconnect thatmuch. Yeah. And it's it's hard
for me to do that.
Justin (43:48):
Yeah. It's hard for me too.
Jon (43:49):
Yeah. I mean, the idea of a sabbatical is, like, exciting
but sort of terrifying at onepoint. At the same time like I
think we're both so used to it.It's just like we've been doing
it for so long it's like part ofour lives. We don't hate it.
We're not we're not miserable.So it's not like the stress of
it is forcing us to take asabbatical but I think it would
(44:11):
probably be good to take a breakand like let your mind kind of
wander on other stuff and havesome other, I don't know, goals
lined up that you wanna Mhmm.Personally do or whatever. But,
yeah, the thought of it is
Justin (44:29):
is interesting. Little scary. I I think the hard thing
for me and this isn't just withtransistor, but you and I are
this is why one reason you and Iworked well together for so long
is we like to work. And there'ssomething like, I'm just used to
getting up every day andcranking this crank of work. And
(44:53):
Mhmm.
I have been doing that almostevery single day, almost every
single week since I was 20. Getup every day. Yeah. And I'm just
used to pulling this crank.Same.
Yeah. I yeah. We're this iswe're very similar. And I think
(45:15):
it's it is a bit scary to thinklike, I don't know what my life
would be like if I'm notconsuming this is kind of the
thing I hate about weekends andvacations is that if I truly
disconnect, I've gotten a bitbetter at this, but, like,
normally, I'm just activated ina way that is just kind of
(45:39):
always on consuming information,acting on information, putting
things in motion. And puttingthings in motion, it kind of
requires that you continuallycrank this crank.
You're continuously consumingsome sort of fire hose from
customers and from the internetand from the industry and
(46:01):
keeping your eyes wide open foropportunities and looking at
threats. It's just always on mymind. To think about not being
on that treadmill or thathamster wheel is kind of like
what what would happen to me.Yeah. You know?
Gavin (46:20):
Yeah. I think yeah. I think you'd have
Jon (46:21):
to, like, preplan on replacing that with something
else. Mhmm. Whatever thatwhatever that may be.
Justin (46:27):
But I would be interested if anyone out here
out in listener land has done asabbatical or even you know, one
thing I think you and I havebeen throwing around is like,
man, a three month sabbatical,which is what we've always kind
of thought of, is there'ssomething about that that just
feels overwhelming. And I havefriends that like worked for
automatic, which did threemonths sabbaticals. They said
(46:50):
that sometimes it felt liketheir first sabbaticals were
there's so much pressure leadingup to it. And, you know, then
they ended up feeling like a lotof it was just like it was too
overwhelming thinking about athree month block at first. And
so, you know, I've been talkingabout even just like me taking a
concerted vacation that's two,three, four weeks long and
(47:16):
practicing truly disconnected.
Jon (47:20):
Deleting all deleting all the apps on
Justin (47:22):
your phone. Deleting everything off my phone, just
putting systems in place, like,so other people are you know,
any emails get looked at. Andthe advantage you and I have is
that we are two people. And sowe can trade off. Like, there's
always going to be a leaderavailable.
(47:43):
You know?
Jon (47:43):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for for me, I would I think my concern
now is, like, I would feel badleaving Jason as like the sole
engineer because you know I wasin that spot for what a couple
years and it was it's a lot. Imean you know things run well
but like you know problemshappen and then like Jason has
(48:07):
stuff he wants to do thatdoesn't involve work and he's
not always gonna be around. Sothat'd be something we'd have to
figure out.
Yeah. Talk, you know, talk toJason or like find someone to
help out temporarily or evenpermanently and who knows? Yeah.
Justin (48:19):
I don't It'd be interesting if there's like a
like a on demand consultant thatyou could just bring in for
those times. Like, just say,like, hey. Like, we we just need
somebody to call who knows ourstack and our especially our
infrastructure stuff that canMhmm. Parachute in if we need
(48:44):
somebody. Yeah.
But, I mean, that might just notexist. That's one of the reason
you hire people is that it'sit's it's nice to have, you
know, some folks that can can bekinda always on. Yeah. Yeah. I
mean, there's always gonna beobstacles.
(49:07):
But I do think in terms of,like, compared to a lot of other
teams, we're a small team, butthere is enough help and overlap
there. Mhmm. And the other thingis that you can be disconnected,
but, you know, the rule is, hey.Like, if you need to text me or
(49:29):
call me, you have my text youhave my my text and my phone,
and, you know, I will likely bein somewhere that has cell phone
coverage. So the I mean, unlessI'm like, you know, unless I go
back to Guatemala and hike thatvolcano, I might be but even
then even then, we're we're
Jon (49:50):
Even then, probably cell
Justin (49:51):
phone service. Worst case scenario, if there's no
cell phone service, and let'ssay everything goes to hell for
forty eight hours, it's probablystill gonna be fine. Like, yes,
that would be hard. Yes, itwould be stressful. But even in
the worst case scenario, like,everything's falling down,
there's, you know, servers areon fire and whatever.
(50:15):
Even then, it wouldn't I I thinkit would still be fine. You
know?
Jon (50:23):
Yeah. Could be. I mean, there's, you know, there's
scenarios where it wouldn't be,but that's that's gonna be that
would be pretty rare, I think.
Justin (50:31):
Well, this is good, man. I'm glad glad we got to do it. I
I think let's try I I'm gonnatry to put this on our schedule
weekly again and just see how itfeels. Man. But if I put it on
weekly, then we might skip
Jon (50:47):
Maybe month. Maybe it
Justin (50:48):
would be month. But at least I'll put it on the
schedule. You might not believethis, but we still have people
supporting us on Patreon.
Jon (50:55):
I can't believe it.
Justin (50:57):
All these years.
Jon (50:58):
I mean, that's probably thanks to you actually posting
some episodes once in a whilewith other people.
Justin (51:03):
That's right.
Jon (51:03):
So thank you.
Justin (51:04):
That's right. Yeah. We've got Pascal from sharpen.
Page. We got rewardful.com.
We've got Greg Park, MitchellDavis from recruitkit.com.au.
Marcel Folle from wearebold.af.Bill Condo. Ward from
memberspace.com. Evandro Sassy.
(51:25):
Now we're getting into the namesthat have been here forever.
Austin Loveless, Michael Sitver,Colin Gray from Alitu. Nice to
see you, Colin. And Dave Giunta.
Jon (51:36):
Giunta. You got to meet Dave.
Justin (51:38):
Yeah. Dave was at the wedding. Dave and I became fast
buds there. It was Yeah.
Jon (51:44):
Dave's great.
Justin (51:45):
We've I was just texting with Dave yesterday. I I I have
a long text message thread withDave. Yeah. Yeah. It's been nice
to keep that keep thatconnection going.
Jon (51:58):
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks to everyone for keeping, like,
continually supporting us. Yeah.During our absence.
Justin (52:06):
And also just being around, you know, that's that's
one thing I think I've realizedis about this show is, you know,
we started this journey and thenjust so many other people joined
us. And whether it was justlistening, whether it was
listening and writing us anemail, whether it was listening
(52:27):
and, you know, sending us a DMwith some ideas, whether so many
listeners became customers.Yeah. Some listeners became
employees, like Josh Andertonwas a longtime listener. You
know?
Jon (52:41):
I mean, we just had an we just had a customer the other
day say something in ourcustomer support chat about,
like, he, you know, enjoyedlistening to the early episodes
Justin (52:50):
Isn't that wild?
Jon (52:51):
Of this podcast. Yeah. It's like, what?
Justin (52:53):
I'm just blown away by it. We appreciate it. If you
want us to be back every week,let us know.
Jon (53:01):
Just yell yell at us. Yeah. Just
Justin (53:04):
every every Friday, just, send us a message saying,
hey, guys, can you pleaserecord? And then Yeah. Maybe if
we get enough nudges, we'll getback on the mics.
Jon (53:13):
Alright,
Justin (53:14):
everyone. Till next time.
Jon (53:15):
Yeah. See you next time.
Justin (53:16):
Bye.
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