Jon & Justin reveal everything (part 1)

Episode Transcript
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Justin (00:00):
Alright. And when you're ready to do an intro

Jon (00:04):
Alright.

Justin (00:04):
Go ahead.

Jon (00:06):
It's been a while. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your
SaaS. This is the behind thescenes story of building a web
app in 2022. I'm John Buda, asoftware engineer.

Justin (00:29):
And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing.
You've been following along aswe've been building
transistor.fm. And, John, it'sit's kind of crazy to think that
we've been doing this show forover 4 years. Yeah.

(00:50):
And that means the company webuilt together is also, also,
well, over 4 years old. Buttoday, August 1st, is the
anniversary of us publiclylaunching transistor to the
world, doing the product huntlaunch and all that.

Jon (01:09):
Yeah. August

Justin (01:10):
Do you remember 20 that time?

Jon (01:13):
Yeah. Absolutely. I remember that. Yeah. That was a
fun time.
It was

Justin (01:17):
We're both in Chicago.

Jon (01:19):
Kinda wild.

Justin (01:22):
I crashed at your apartment.

Jon (01:23):
Yep. I

Justin (01:25):
mean, if people go back in our episodes, they will
realize like, you can you canyou can go back to you know, I
think our first episode issomething like February or
March, of that year before welaunched.

Jon (01:46):
My name is Jon Buda. I am living in Chicago, Illinois. I'm
a developer by trade, I suppose.I have background a little bit
of a background design as well.So I guess kind of a full stack
web developer.

Justin (01:59):
I'm Justin Jackson. I'm from Canada. I got started in
software in 2008. Now on theweb, I'm kind of known as, indie
entrepreneur or, solopreneurguy. So we met back in 2014
because we met at XOXO.
We did. Yeah. That first day ofthe festival, you and I met, and

(02:20):
I remember being so thankfulthat you wanted to talk to me.
Vic

Jon (02:25):
Yeah. Which is which is sort of the opposite for me
because I'm a fairly introvertedguy. So for me to talk to random
folks at at festivals is is likeme pushing myself out of my
comfort zone completely.

Justin (02:36):
So it you're saying it was painful for you?

Jon (02:38):
A little bit for sure. Yeah. I think it smoothed out.
It went alright.

Justin (02:45):
It's kind of wild. It's just wild. There was this
feeling when I flew to Chicagoof expectation and nervousness,
this feeling of you and I kneweach other, but not nearly as
much as we know each other now.

Jon (03:05):
No. Yeah. I mean yeah. We'd hung out a handful of times at
conferences and then started acompany together without
actually getting together.Right?
Yeah. Had I mean, we've beenrecording for a while, so we
knew each other pretty well.

Justin (03:21):
We knew each other from the Internet and from these
events that we'd gone to. Wewere introduced in 2014 by our
friend, Chase Reeves at XOXO.Big shout out to xoxo for
bringing John and I together.And I think we started talking
in a food line, you know, likewaiting for food or drinks or

(03:44):
something. And, you know, it'stypical.
It's like, Chase says, hey, thisis John Buddha. And he's like,
hey. This is Justin Jackson.And, you know, we're sitting
there, standing there, and it'skinda like, okay. Well, what do
you do?
You know? Yeah. And I said,well, I've been, like, working
on this podcast called ProductPeople. And he said, oh, I've

(04:05):
been working on this podcasthosting platform called
Simplecast, and that was, like,how we we met.

Jon (04:14):
Yeah. That's kind of what we bonded over, I guess, or
talked about. Yeah. You withyour your mountain man beard,
and I was clean shaven at thetime, and we have since

Justin (04:23):
we have

Jon (04:24):
since swapped.

Justin (04:25):
We flipped. We'll we'll put a photo in the show notes
here, or maybe the cover artthat will show that when we met,
I had this giant beard, and youwere, yeah, clean shaven. And we
yeah. We flipped. Now now you'rerocking the beard and I'm clean
shaven.
I I keep trying to go back tothe beard, but it's a lot of
commitment.

Jon (04:45):
Yeah.

Justin (04:46):
Especially for me. Like, I Well,

Jon (04:47):
with that size of beard too, I think it's Yeah.

Justin (04:49):
It's a lot. But it almost feels like with my facial
hair, I have to grow it all theway out, just to get, like for
it to even to work. But, Anyway,so we met, we hung out, we ended
up seeing each other every year.Kinda after that, We worked on a
few projects together. And thenin 2017, we were hanging out

(05:13):
online somewhere.
I I don't know where we weremessaging.

Jon (05:16):
I'm not either.

Justin (05:18):
And we had been keeping in touch with, like, here's what
I'm working on. Here's whatyou're working on. You were
working at cards, at the time,Cards Against Humanity. Yep. And
you said, hey.
I've been I've been hacking on alittle project. And the the was
the initial idea, like, cardswas working on that new show,

(05:39):
and that was why you werehacking on it?

Jon (05:41):
Yeah. Cards was doing a a holiday promotion where they
were gonna fund a podcast for ayear that would release an
episode every day of the week,and they were looking at, you
know, they needed a place tohost it, and they were looking
at Simplecast, which I had builtpreviously, but had you know,
things have gone sour with that.So Yeah. And a lot of people had

(06:06):
used it at the office justbecause I had been working on it
even when I started at cards. Sothat's what they knew, and, you
know, I was it would have beenfine if they had used it, but in
the back of my mind, I was like,I kinda wanted to get back into
this again anyway.
So Yeah. I proposed the ideathat I kinda build, like, a

(06:28):
prototype of a posting platformand that if it was ready by the
end of the year, they could useit. And that's what happened. So
that was,

Justin (06:36):
like,

Jon (06:38):
late or, like I don't know. Little middle late 2017, I
started on it.

Justin (06:44):
Yeah. In our history doc, it says your first line of
code was March 2017.

Jon (06:49):
Oh, wow. That's okay. Yeah. That's so early, I guess, early
2017.

Justin (06:55):
I mean, they did have

Jon (06:55):
to plan this they did have to plan this thing quite far in
advance. So, I think maybe I hadalready started working on it
even before they brought thisup. That's a little bit hazy,
but, you know, it's one of thoseprojects where, like, you just
need something fun to work on inyour free time to kind of keep
you, I don't know, motivated or,like, learn new stuff. And so

(07:20):
I've been working on that alittle bit. On and off when I
could.
And then yeah. That that podcastlaunched, things went pretty
well. And I think you had got intouch with me either late 2017
or early 2018?

Justin (07:35):
I think it was late 2017 because yeah. It was, like,
probably, November or Decemberor even October, it could have
been. And you were telling meabout this project you were
working on. You had alreadyregistered the the domain name.
You had already, incorporatedthe company.

Jon (07:58):
And You Stripe Stripe Atlas. Yeah. That's right.

Justin (08:01):
Yeah. Yeah. The company was actually officially
incorporated in July 2017.

Jon (08:06):
Okay.

Justin (08:06):
And then, as the year is winding down, so October,
November, December, we weretalking, and I was like, I was
looking for a new project, andI've been doing things on my own
for a long time and was justkind of burnt out on it and was

(08:27):
really wanting to do somethingin software again. Yep. There's
kind of 2 things. There's, like,who do I wanna partner up with?
And, you know, I thought aboutKyle Fox.
He was the one that I did theProduct People podcast with.
And, because you want somebodyyou can trust, you want somebody
who has similar productsensibilities, you want somebody

(08:50):
who is a good builder, who,like, can really, execute at a
high level. And, you know, I wasthinking about, okay, who could
I partner with? Or maybe Ishould buy a SaaS app and, you
know, do it that way. And thenyou're telling me about this
project, and I was just like,the there were so many things

(09:11):
bubbling in that at that pointin podcasting.
And I've been doing it foryears, and I was just like it
just felt like instantly for me,like, wow. That is a project
that I could work on. And thatand John's somebody I could work
on a project with. And we'd hada failed, like, project not a
failed, but a project we workedon together. And I just remember

(09:33):
it being like we had a goodrapport while we

Jon (09:38):
were, you

Justin (09:38):
know, going back and forth. Yeah.

Jon (09:40):
It was a good it was a good, I don't know, test case
for that.

Justin (09:44):
Yeah. And, I remember, you know, I remember telling my
wife that night, like, you know,John's working on this thing,
and I'm kind of thinking ofasking him if he he'd wanna work
on it with me, if he'd wannapartner up. And she was just
like, yes. That sounds exactlyright. Yeah.

(10:07):
Because it so many things justseem to align. You know? It was
like, podcasting is the perfectcategory for us to both be in
together. You've got our skillsthat seem to balance each other
out so well. We knew each other.
We had, like, you know, I I'dcome home every year and she

(10:28):
from XOXO, and she'd say, who'dyou hang out with? And I'd be
like, well, Chase and John Budaand Dan and everybody. And and
so she the it was just I thinkshe even recognized, like, this
would be really good Yeah. Andthat it was worth pursuing
because I was like, I don't knowif I should pursue this. Like,
maybe I should just go aftersomething else or maybe John

(10:48):
won't be into it.
And Yeah.

Jon (10:51):
I mean, initially, I wasn't. Right?

Justin (10:53):
Yeah. Initially, you weren't. You know, I yeah.

Jon (10:56):
I had had been burned on simple cast and was sort of,
like, deflated from working withsomeone who, you know, I thought
I could trust and worked withwell and did not work out. So,
you know, I was building thisthing like I could build this on
my own and try to get it to workand, like, you know, it might
make enough money for me to liveon or be a nice side income or

(11:16):
something like that. Yeah. But,yeah, for me, I mean, the more I
thought about it, the more I waslike, I don't I don't know
marketing. I don't want to spendmy time doing that.
Yeah. Justin knows how to dothat. He has a big following.
He's like charismatic andoutgoing on the Internet. And,
like, once I thought about that,I sort of switch flipped my
head, and I was, like, yeah,that that makes sense.

(11:38):
Might as well try this out.

Justin (11:41):
Try it out. And we took it seriously. I mean, I think I
think, if you go back to thoseepisodes, like, you were like,
let's sign some partnershipdocs. Let's get some lawyers.
You know?
And I think, you know, I I don'tknow if everyone should start a
company like that, but, yeah,that's how it worked for us. We
invited our 1st beta customersin March 2018. August 1st, we

(12:04):
did our our official launch. Wegot a 100 customers from that
official launch. By March 2019,we're very close to hitting
$10,000 a month in recurringrevenue.

Jason (12:16):
Mhmm.

Justin (12:16):
And then April 2019, I went full time. June of that
year, we had a 1,000 activecustomers. And July, right
before our, 1 year launchanniversary, you went full time.

Jon (12:33):
Yep.

Justin (12:34):
And we've got a bunch of questions from our audience. I
don't know if we're gonna beable to get to all of these, but
I wanna thank everyone that gaveus questions and yeah, we're
just gonna go through them inhonor of this 4 year
anniversary. And yes, hopefully,I think it'll be fun for you and
I, but hopefully also it givespeople a sense of the

(13:01):
significance of all of this, ofthis time of building a company
on the Internet with people youdidn't grow up with and didn't
know previously.

Jon (13:09):
Yeah. Through a through a pandemic.

Justin (13:12):
Through a pandemic. I mean, it's it is It's
incredible.

Jon (13:16):
It's funny. Before we get into the questions, like, you
know, you'd think you'd think,like, this morning I'd be
preparing for this call orsomething, but I was actually
just, like, working on codebecause it's fun.

Justin (13:27):
Yeah.

Jon (13:28):
You know? Like, I I really enjoy it still, and I'm not
sitting here, like, going, youknow, going through our history
and looking up everything. I'mjust like, I wanna fix this
thing because it's fun.

Justin (13:37):
Yeah. To be able to wake up every day.

Jon (13:39):
That's great.

Justin (13:40):
Yeah. It is it really is. And I hope I mean, I know a
lot of people listen to the showbecause they've got a dream.
They've got a dream aboutbuilding their own indie SaaS

Jon (13:53):
Yeah.

Justin (13:53):
Their own indie software company. And what we've tried to
do on this show is provide a,you know, a balanced look of
what that looks like. And we gotlucky. Ours worked out. Often,
they don't.
And so, you know, people alongfor the ride got this, kind of
ascendant story, which is, Ithink, fun. But the other thing

(14:17):
I try to communicate is thepositive side, which is this
really has changed our life in ain in a really positive way.

Jon (14:25):
Mhmm.

Justin (14:26):
And, the success is is definitely like, we cherish the
success. We enjoy the success.The success, has definitely made
our lives better.

Jon (14:39):
Yeah. Definitely. It's don't take it for granted.

Justin (14:41):
And we definitely don't take it for granted. Yeah.
Alright. Let's get into some ofthese. Gerhard Lazu says, what
is the secret to your calm andeasy way of running transistor
as a company?
Well, I think part of it is ourpersonalities. Mhmm. What we
wanted, You know, when you and Iwere talking, even when we were

(15:04):
dreaming about the previousprojects, that we did together,
I think the the the motivationwas, you know, we wanna have a
good life. We want to not haveto work for IBM. We want to you
know, not that there's anythingwith IBM, but just like we knew

(15:26):
what we wanted in terms of awork life balance, I think.

Jon (15:29):
Yeah. I think we knew that going into it. I mean, it was it
was definitely tricky at first.Like, I was working full time.
Mhmm.
You were Yeah.

Justin (15:37):
You were,

Jon (15:37):
you know, you were still working on things too. Yeah.
It's it's interesting lookingback and, like, you know, why I
would wanna run my own companyor why we would. Mhmm. It's
never really about the money.
It's if it's it's like, I Iwanna work with good people. I
wanna be able to set my ownschedule. I wanna not have to go
into an office from 9 to 5 eventhough, like, generally, I work

(16:00):
9 to 5. But within that time,there's so much freedom to just
do, you know, schedule your dayhowever you want.

Justin (16:09):
Yeah. And, I mean, I think, especially I mean, the
challenge sometimes is when youhave all that freedom is to
actually take advantage of it.But when we are in that mode of,
you know, hey. Hey, everybody.I'm taking the afternoon off to
go swimming and for a run.
That is that lifestyle doescreate calm.

Jon (16:34):
Yeah.

Justin (16:35):
And I would also say, 2 more things. 1, our handbook,
I'll link to it. We have thesevalues that we've kind of added
to this list over time. One isour emotional and physical
well-being is our number onepriority. It's worth investing
money and time to take care ofourselves.
We've, you know, we've,benefited from therapy and other

(17:02):
ways of taking care of our ourminds and our bodies. And, I
think for us to have that inthere from the beginning, you
know, I'd be like, message you.And initially, there's always
some nervousness. You know, I'dbe like, hey, man. I am not
doing very good, and I just needto take a day off.

Jon (17:21):
Yeah.

Justin (17:22):
And you were just so gracious and accepting about
that from the beginning. And Ithink that's led to this, you
know, calm and easy way ofrunning the company is that we
just we're not working superhard on, like, KPIs. You know?
It's not like we've got a1,000,000 things we've gotta

(17:43):
we've gotta hit every month.We've always kind of just found
this nice balance.
And I'd say the other thing isthat something else that really
helped us have become is thatour market, our category,
podcast hosting, the momentum isjust perfect for us.

Jon (18:06):
Yeah.

Justin (18:08):
It's not like if you listen to Peltie's story with
Balsamic, he pushed launch onthat, and he said it was like
holding on to a rocket ship withhis fingernails. It was just so
crazy, and he had to hire peopleright away, and he was not
having a good time.

Jon (18:22):
Yeah. That I yeah. I don't think I would have enjoyed that.
I don't think you would haveeither. No.
That would have been it wouldhave been too much.

Justin (18:28):
And and then the reverse is bad too. If you don't have
enough momentum in the market,then you're stressed. You're
always trying to, do things,push things forward to try to
make it happen, to try to getthat machine running. And for
us, we launched it wasn't likeit was, you know, amazing right

(18:48):
off the bat, but, you know, a100 paying customers on our on
our launch day. That'sincredible.

Jon (18:56):
Yeah. That's great. I guess to the flip side of this is and
I hope we never get to thispoint, but, like, we haven't
really been through a periodthat is a massive struggle.
Right?

Justin (19:08):
Like,

Jon (19:09):
Nothing horrible has happened. Nothing catastrophic.
Nothing like we've lost half ofour customer base in a day.
Mhmm. I think we'd probably worktogether and figure that out as
a, you know, a 4 person team nowand Yeah.
And figure out how to moveforward. But I don't think that
sort of struggle has really hitus yet

Justin (19:30):
Yeah.

Jon (19:30):
Which, you know, it certainly could. Hopefully, it
doesn't, but, like, that willdefinitely test our, calm and
easygoing company.

Justin (19:41):
Yeah. It's true. It's true. Yeah. Although, I think
certainly having a company withmargin so we've got lots of
financial margin still, lots oftime margin, lots of energy
margin.
We've never had to have an allI've been on teams where there's

(20:02):
an all hands meeting, and it'slike, alright, guys. Shit hit
the fan. And it's actually,like, as an employee, it's
always, like, often it's notyour fault. Like Yeah. Sometimes
it's mismanagement, or sometimesit's just the economy or some
other external force orwhatever.
But it's like, shit hit the fan.We all gotta come together and,

(20:23):
like, you know, work theweekends and work the nights to
get this done. Yeah. And I thinkone nice thing is it just feels
like we have lots of energy inthe bank if we ever need to do
that. Yeah.

Jon (20:36):
I think I think yeah. I think part of the reason we have
that energy in the bank is thatour company is calm, and we're
not, like, you know, goingtowards burnout.

Justin (20:45):
Yeah.

Jon (20:46):
We're, like, maintaining a steady line of, like, excitement
and rest, and and we, you know,we allow Jason and Helen to do
the same. Like, if they need totake time off, they can do that
basically whenever they want.

Justin (20:59):
Mhmm.

Jon (21:00):
Yeah. You know, take the day if it's, like, a Wednesday,
and Jason's, like, I'm just donefor the day. I'm gonna check
out. It's, like, yeah. That'sfair.
Like, you can't just sit at yourdesk and force yourself to work.

Justin (21:11):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Alright.
Let's go through some of these abit faster. We got Marcela who
says, what has been the mostchallenging aspect of the past 4
years, and how do you wish youhandled it better? The the hard
hitting questions.

Jon (21:26):
Yeah.

Justin (21:26):
I think just quickly, like, the pandemic was
difficult. Whenever there'ssomething political in the US,
it is difficult on our team.

Jon (21:36):
It is. Yeah.

Justin (21:37):
Not seeing each other during the pandemic, that was
way too long. And generally, Iwould say so far, like John
said, we've been lucky in theside of the company. Not much
has been that challenging. Ithink the things that are
challenging are the things thathappen outside of the company.
You know?

(21:58):
And so it's things in mypersonal life have, you know,
sometimes been difficult or,like, external events like COVID
or a recession. Right. Yeah.Those are those are challenging.
Chris Enns, our amazing intrepidpodcast editor who's been
editing this show from thebeginning, asks he has a few

(22:18):
questions.
He says, where do you seeTransistor at your 10 year
anniversary? And then Jason Zukhad a similar question. Where do
you see transistor in 5 years or10 years? Is there an exit? All
that kind of stuff.

Jon (22:29):
Yeah.

Justin (22:30):
So 5 years will be 2,027? 7. Yep. I don't know. Any
thoughts?
5, 10 years?

Jon (22:42):
Yeah. It's hard to say. I mean, I know we wanna keep the
company small, whether it'sstill 4 people or if there's
more. That's kind of an openquestion. Mhmm.
I know personally, I don't wannaget it too big because I don't
wanna have to have to feel likeI'm managing people instead of
building things. Right? Yep. Whoknows how the podcast, like,

(23:06):
ecosystem or market's gonnachange? Like, that's that's hard
to tell.
You know? What we obviously, wewe try to adapt to it as we can
as it happens kind of in realtime. Mhmm. And as far as, like,
an exit, I mean, if it if thathappens in 5 years, like, I
don't know if the the market tobe acquired is sort of changing

(23:30):
or drying up or there's been alot of acquisition in the
podcast space. Yeah.
But that's something we're alsogonna talk about in October when
we all get together for thefirst time

Justin (23:41):
is, like,

Jon (23:42):
where do we wanna go with this? Do we wanna do we wanna
build towards maybe selling it,and what does that look like?
Yeah. I we just don't have theanswers to that. I mean, it if I
was still working on it in 5years like I am now, I think I'd
be perfectly happy.

Justin (23:58):
Yeah. Me too. And I I think the only existential
question is, like, it would benice for and, actually, I don't
think you have this pressure asmuch as I do, but, you know,
with the family and everythingelse, I think I I sometimes feel
like, it'd be nice to have acouple million in the bank just,
you know, just there. Yeah. Butthe, I mean, the great thing is

(24:25):
if we continue to be asprofitable as we are right now,
in 5 years, it's very likelythat, you know, I could have a
couple million in the bank, andthat you know, then, I I might
be more way more at ease and waymore willing to say, ah, let's
just ride this out no matterwhat happens with the transistor
mark, the transistor market thepodcast market.

Jon (24:47):
Yeah. I mean, realistically, like, we could
technically just put this thingon autopilot right now and,
like, go on vacation for 6months. Yeah. But I don't know.
We're not gonna do that.

Gavin (24:57):
We should AB test that.

Jon (24:58):
It could it could technically run it for the most
part.

Justin (25:03):
I mean,

Jon (25:03):
you know, there's customer service, obviously, and stuff
like that. Things need to befixed and things are changing,
but, like, you know, if we evergot sick of it, that's an
option.

Justin (25:12):
Yeah. That would be a fun AB test. Just go, okay. John
and I are taking 6 months off.So then Jason and Helen just run
the company, and then we switch.
Then it's like Yeah. We comeback in 6 months. It's like, oh,
wow. What's going on here? Andthey're like, everything's
great.
You know? We're up into theright. It's like beauty. And
then they they take 6 monthsoff, and we just, you know Yeah.

(25:37):
Run the company.

Jon (25:37):
Sabbatical for 6 months. Yeah.

Justin (25:39):
Yeah. I love this question from Giggle Quick on
Twitter. What is SaaS? Iresponded on Twitter. But Okay.
That that that's always, like,people, you know, that ask me
what I do, and I'll say, oh,well, we have a software company
that does podcast hosting. Andthey're like, oh, what's your

(25:59):
podcast? I was like, well, it'scalled build your SaaS.

Jon (26:04):
Right.

Justin (26:04):
Which means software as a service. It's like a niche
thing. Anybody outside ofsoftware doesn't know what that
is. Yeah. Matthias asks, do youever feel like you're not doing
enough?
What I mean is when things aretaking off and margin is
increasing, you might start tobecome comfortable. The initial

(26:25):
hunger might start to wear off,and you maybe you enjoy the
fruit of the work you you did.But sometimes I feel that I
might become too comfortable andthen have this feeling that
competitors will be more hungrythan me. I would love your
thoughts on this. Is thissomething you struggle with?

Jon (26:41):
Yeah. I think I do. I mean, it's in the it's always in the
back of my mind. Like, I'm surethere's all I'm sure there's
always more we could do. I don'tthink it's very beneficial to,
like, think about it all thetime.
Mhmm. I think that would justcause a lot of stress and
anxiety.

Justin (26:58):
Yeah.

Jon (26:59):
But I think it's it's good to be aware of your competitors
and, like, you know, how they'removing and kinda what they're
doing and, things like that. Andwe've, you know, we've noticed
that before. We've definitelyreacted sometimes to other
competitors in certain ways.But, yeah, I I don't know. I
don't know if I necessarilyworry that we're not doing

(27:20):
enough.
I think we do a lot with thesmall team we have.

Justin (27:23):
But Yeah. Yeah. I think there is this is kind of my,
whatever my universal theory ofbootstrapping or indie SAS or
whatever, which is you need tofind a momentum, a pace that
allows you to go the distance.And, you know, I just I've I've

(27:46):
gone on 2 runs this year. I didmy for my my annual run, and
then I'm like, I'll try to doanother one.
But if I if I don't have areasonable pace, I'm just not
gonna be able to go thedistance. And so, sure, I can
run a faster mile, but thatmeans I won't be able to run the
next mile.

Jon (28:05):
Right.

Justin (28:05):
And there it's it's really tempting to stay up at
night worrying about yourcompetitors and then writing a
big list of all the things youneed to do to compete. And then
just working yourself to thebone to try to get there. And
I'm not saying there's not timesto do that, like, sure. At the

(28:26):
beginning, we did feel thispressure. We needed to get to
feature parity with ourcompetitors.
But, hopefully, the marketyou're in has enough draw, and
really product can't be youronly magnet. You've gotta have

(28:47):
some other things in your inyour corner. And, you know, for
us, that was network. It wasskills. It was our history.
It was us understanding thecustomer, I think, better than a
lot of our competitors.

Jon (29:01):
Mhmm.

Justin (29:02):
It was, the fact that John is really good at building
product, and hopefully, I'm okayat promoting it. It's having an
audience. It's being able to,you know, reach out and
collaborate with other people.It's being willing to ask for
help. Like, you have to havemore in your corner than just
you cranking out features,hoping to get ahead of the

(29:24):
competitors.
There are lots of products thatare better than the incumbent,
better features, whatever, butthey're missing everything else.
And the way, you know, thewinners or even, like, the the
marginal winners are notdetermined just by, you know,

(29:47):
you having more features thanyour competitors.

Jon (29:49):
Yeah. I, I finished a book recently called running the
dream, which is really good. Andit was about this, non he was
not an elite runner, and heended up he's a writer. He's a
journalist, and he ended upwanting to join an elite team
and training for the Chicagomarathon and document it. But he

(30:13):
was a really good runner, but hewas not, like, you know, he's
not gonna win a marathon.
He's not going to the Olympics.

Justin (30:18):
Mhmm.

Jon (30:19):
And it was all with him, like, training with his team for
6 months or whatever in inArizona and Flagstaff. And it's
kinda similar with building aproduct. Like, he's not going
out there and running hismarathon pace every day all the
time. Right? There's, like,moments where you're gonna train
for speed, and there's otherstuff you're gonna do.
But most of the time, he's, youknow, he's training at, like,

(30:42):
you know, a minute a minute anda half slower than his marathon
time, but doing, you know,putting in longer workouts and
and training up differentthings, but there's also, like,
he needs rest days, and he has,like, massages and and physical
therapy and stuff like that thatall plays into it. So you can't
just, like, go balls out all thetime and hope that you're gonna
reach your goal. Yeah. Anyway,it's a great book. It doesn't

(31:04):
really have anything to do withrunning a company, but pretty
pretty pretty fascinating toread.

Justin (31:09):
I I it sounds it sounds like it that's actually exactly
kinda what you need to be,because these parallels are what
you should be looking at. Sosure business is different and
every market in business isdifferent. Every industry is
different. And this is also whyI'm so big on choosing your
market because some markets youdo just have to run harder. And

(31:30):
if you don't wanna do that, thendon't go into that category.
You know? If I I know that beinga car salesman would require a a
certain level of effort everyday and hustle every day and
whatever. And that's why I chosenot to be a car salesperson. I

(31:50):
don't wanna do that. So you haveto choose, and find a fit that
matches what you want.
And, it's not easy, but, yeah, Ithink it's worth trying for.
Okay. So Jason Zukes says, doyou think we've reached peak
podcast, or is there moreoverall podcast growth? It kinda
feels like there's a certain agegroup that enjoys podcasts. I

(32:13):
think he's saying older people.
Younger generation lives onTikTok, YouTube, Twitch,
etcetera. So I don't think we'vereached peak podcast. I think,
podcasting had a bump during thepandemic. I think we're just
gonna return to 10, 15% growth,a year. There's different ways
of measuring that.
Advertising growth is going togrow faster than that. I think

(32:34):
it already is. But in terms oflistenership, I think we're just
back to our regular cadence of,you know, 10 to 15% growth in
terms of new listeners everyyear. There are, global markets
that are growing much fasterthan that for podcasting,
Brazil, Mexico. So there's lotsof growth there.

(33:00):
And then there's also, one ofthe benefits of having 4 kids
who are all Gen z is that I getto, see how, you know, their
lives kind of progress. Andaround 16, 17, they start
listening to podcasts. Now maybeit's because they're my kids,
but trust me if you I don'tthink they're doing it because

(33:20):
of dad. They they find theseshows on their own. Sometimes
they discover them throughYouTube and Instagram, and then
they start listening based onthat.
There's also seems to be I'llI'll link to this report my
daughter did, on the transistorblog, but there seems to be this
transition. You know, mydaughter left home and now she's

(33:41):
going to university. She'strying to figure out what it is
to be an adult, and she'slooking for models to follow who
are not her parents. And she hasshe says her and her friends are
increasingly reaching out topodcasts to get a sense of what
it means to be an adult. And sothey're looking she likes

(34:05):
listening to podcasts bymillennials, so people that are
just ahead of her Yeah.
And hearing their experience.And, you know, it's like
psychology. It's productivity.It's, you know, self care, all
sorts of, topics that a youngadult might be interested in. So
I I think we're not at peakpodcast.

(34:26):
I think it's gonna continue toincrease, but we're back to the
regular pace. John, what'ssomething you've gotten better
at over the past 4 years? NoahBragg asks this question.

Jon (34:40):
Oh, that's a good question. I think we were just talking
about this the other day. I Ithink I've gotten a lot better
at I don't know if takingcriticism is the right one, but
but having my ideas andassumptions challenged as far as
the product goes. Yeah.Especially after we hired Jason.

(35:03):
But you've you know, you and Ihave kind of went back and forth
in a few things too. And Yeah.You know, I can get a little
bullheaded and proud of what Ibuilt and not wanna change
something or, like, a line ofcopy. I'm like, oh, yeah. That's
fine.

Justin (35:18):
Yeah. But Yeah. We work through

Jon (35:20):
it, and, ultimately, like, whatever comes out in the end is
far better than what I did.

Justin (35:24):
Yeah. Yeah. No. I think that's true, actually, John. I
think I I think it's also amatter of, as you get as you
work with somebody for longer,you start to recognize the
pattern.
So it's like, initially, Imight, like, challenge you on
something and then get rebuffed,but I just know that's just part
of our process. Mhmm.

Jon (35:44):
You know

Justin (35:44):
what I mean? It's like, okay. Well, I'm gonna. And in
the same way that I mightpresent an idea and then you,
you know, might critique itright away. I just know that's
part of our process of figuringout what we're gonna do.
And, ultimately, it does, Ithink, create a better outcome,
when we do do that.

Jon (36:04):
Yep.

Justin (36:05):
So, yeah, I I'd agree with that. I think that's great.

Jon (36:08):
How about you?

Justin (36:09):
I think for me, you know, better is sure. I I think
I've gotten better at somethings, but I think the, a
better way of putting it is Ijust have more awareness. One
thing I brought up quite a bitis, like, I just know that if
you and I are not connecting,with a call once a week, that we
we just can't let that go fortoo long Mhmm. Or it's not good

(36:33):
for our relationship. In thesame way, I think you and I need
at least one, in person meetupevery year.
And if it goes too long, itreally affects our relationship.

Jon (36:47):
Yeah.

Justin (36:47):
And so, I think having awareness about those things,
and I think my default when wewhen we started was just feeling
like, you know, I can just be inmy little my little cave working
on my stuff and your in yourcave working on your stuff. And
why would why would we need tointeract? And, I'm just

(37:12):
realizing how important that is.Yeah. And, when we don't have
it, it is, I yeah.
I just think it it's not goodfor the relationship, and I can
also see it with our team. Youknow? We I I was kinda hesitant
to do any sort of meeting for along time, And just having this

(37:33):
standing weekly meeting everyThursday, it's just good for us.
It's good for us emotionally.It's good for us as human
beings.
And sometimes I treat myselflike just a working robot, like
a robot that just does stuff andgoes home at the end of the

(37:53):
night. And it's been nice torecognize, like, this human part
of it. Like, part of the reasonwe're doing this is so that I
can connect with you, so that wecan connect with Jason and
Helen, so we can have this humanexperience of laughing together,
working on something together,trying to overcome challenges

(38:14):
together. That part has beenreally great.

Jon (38:18):
I would agree with that.

Justin (38:19):
What was the lowest point or equivalent of rock
bottom in your 4 year transferhistory? I I I don't know if
there's again, we haven't reallyhad anything. I think at the
beginning, something wesometimes gloss over is just how
hard it was on John to beworking a full time job and
coming home evenings andweekends, and how hard it was on
me financially to have, thiswaiting on this other thing that

(38:44):
we were investing so much timein.

Jon (38:46):
I think the lowest point for me was certainly near the
beginning, which is unfortunate.I mean, it's it's how it
happened, but, like, I was justdone at my old job, right? I
was, like, checked out. I didn'twant to be there. I didn't wanna
come in in the morning.
I was excited about this otherthing that I was working on with
you, and, you know, it affectedmy relationships and stuff
because I was was not in a goodmood or, you know, needed to

(39:10):
spend time with this other thingwhen I was done working at the
other job. Yes. So I'm, yeah,I'm glad I could leave my other
job as quickly as I could.

Justin (39:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in retrospect, this is why I've
softened a little bit on, purebootstrapping versus raising
money because I mean,ultimately, now we're really
happy that it worked out. But,you know, there's a world in
which things took longer, and itreally affected both of us

(39:42):
mentally, and that could havebeen really bad.
So, you know, if you need ifyou've got a good idea and a
market that wants that idea andyou feel like you've got built
in advantages and you canconvince somebody to give you a
$100 or $200 to build focus onbuilding the product for a year,
I think that can be reallybeneficial. Daniel Lazar, who is

(40:08):
host of the For A Livingpodcast, great transistor
customer. He's got a few goodquestions, but I think we only
have time for what have youlearned about partnership that
you wish the world could hear?This kinda goes off the other
one we just had, but anotherthought I had is just, and this

(40:28):
applies, I think, to allrelationships is, a partnership
is a tension between individualsworking on themselves and
figuring out their own issuesand then bringing that to the
table, hopefully, with someoneelse who is also working on
their issues. Yeah.
And, I think one of the reasonsit's been great to be with John

(40:52):
is that we kinda bonded overmental health stuff, like
sharing personal experiencesfrom our lives. And so I already
knew he was the kind of personwho is working on himself and
that I could talk about, youknow, just life stuff with.

Jon (41:12):
Yeah.

Justin (41:13):
And, I think it would be challenging to be in a
partnership with someone who'snot self aware, with someone
who's not going to therapy, withsomeone who's not taking care of
themselves, and that oftendoesn't get talked about. You
know? So often people arelooking for a technical
cofounder or they're looking fora marketing cofounder. Yeah. And

(41:37):
those are both good things tolook for, but there's this other
layer of, and it can even becheesy.
Like, you know, sometimes I'll,you know, we haven't done this
in a while, but I would sharewith John, like, one of those
cheesy personality quizzes.

Jon (41:56):
Yeah.

Justin (41:56):
And we would go through those together. And there is
something about that of, workingon yourself and then coming
together and then working onyour relationship, but it can
only really work if both partiesare motivated in that way.

Jon (42:15):
I would agree with that. Yeah. I mean, it's I would say
the partnership is about a lotmore than just the business.
Yeah. Right?
Like, that's definitely a bigpart of it, but there's just so
much more that goes on there.

Justin (42:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, to to make this, like,
more, real I mean, there was atime during the pandemic I was
really worried about you, John.Yeah.
Like, just the the lockdowns inChicago and, you know, you
weren't able to get out andexercise and you're, I had a
family full so I had a housefull of people, but you're in
your apartment by yourself. AndI was definitely worried about

(42:52):
you, and I think, that that kindof care and that also just,
like, being the kind of partnersthat can encourage each other to
say, hey, you know, take care ofyourself, you know, is really,
really key. So great question,Daniel. Yeah. Minh Phuc Tran

(43:14):
says, would be fun andrefreshing to hear what has been
the most fun and memorableexperience during your 4 year
journey.
Most startup podcasts are abouthow to succeed, but really talk
about the things they remember,you know, after the success, I
guess. Fun. I mean, this iskinda again about our our

(43:34):
friendship and relationship,but, like, it it's fun
snowboarding together.

Jon (43:39):
Yeah.

Justin (43:41):
It's fun going to Portland together. You know, the
I think those for me have beenthe shared experiences have
been, in person have been someof the most fun.

Jon (43:53):
Yeah. Definitely.

Justin (43:54):
Which is funny because then it just makes me feel like,
why don't we invest in thatmore?

Jon (43:58):
Yeah. We don't really do it that often.

Justin (44:01):
Yeah.

Jon (44:01):
I mean, COVID kinda changed everything, but we certainly
could. Because, yeah, it'sgreat.

Justin (44:06):
I mean,

Jon (44:07):
you know, whether it's just a meet up or we work on some
stuff or just hang out or Mhmm.Talk about a lot.

Justin (44:13):
Also say, I I think our staff meetings have been fun.
Yeah. Just like the we often,like, are laughing during those.
So, yeah, I think that's beenfun. And I would also say, you
know, in terms of fun, andmemorable, it's like, yeah, when
we release something we'rereally proud of and just I I

(44:35):
think you and I were talkingabout this the other day, but
with these achievement badges wejust released, I just loved,
like, seeing how that idea kindof percolated up through Slack.
And then you and Jason kindatook hold of it. And then when
it got those badges designed andthen, you know, worked on the
thing, and then we continued tosee evidence that people wanted

(44:58):
it. And then eventually to getit out in the world and to have
people respond in such anexuberant way. Like, our
customers just love it.

Jon (45:08):
Yeah. That and that was a long feature. I mean, we had
those badges done in, like,November December of 2021. And
they were done. Yeah.
And we just sort of like hadother stuff to do, but they were
sitting there waiting for us tobuild it. We built parts of it
at a time and then finallyfinish it up. But, yeah, it was
fun. That was I mean, for me,the the whole thing is, like and

(45:29):
I tell people this all all thetime, like, when they ask what
I'm doing and if I like it.It's, like, I get to come to
work and work with 3 greatfriends.
And, like, Jason was a greatfriend before this. Yeah. And
it's just like, you know,there's always, like, is this a
good idea? Like, how is thisgonna change our relationship?

(45:50):
Yeah.
And I also don't see himphysically often enough either,
and he's not that far away. But,like, it's great just coming to
work with, like, friends youenjoy being around

Gavin (46:01):
Yeah.

Jon (46:02):
Every day.

Justin (46:02):
Yeah. Like, it's really Yeah. Absolutely.

Jon (46:04):
I don't think, you know, I don't think a lot of people have
that necessarily. I mean, youknow, you make friends at work
and at the office, but it's likeit's not always the same,
especially with biggercompanies, like Yeah. But, yeah,
it's just it is

Justin (46:20):
my fault. One reason it would be hard to sell

Jon (46:23):
Yeah.

Justin (46:23):
Because that to have to go and work at Amazon, you know,
would be, I think, verydifficult.

Jon (46:32):
And, like, we'd probably largely be working together
still, but there'd be, like,this other, like, shadow of
management hanging over us. AndYeah. That would be, that'd be
tough. Mhmm.

Justin (46:46):
I think we're gonna power through all of these
questions, but we may break thisup into 2 episodes. So just and
FYI, Chris. Okay. So so this onecame up a couple times. Connor
asks and Jason Zuk asks, what isyour definition of enough for a
transistor, and how has itevolved over the years?

(47:08):
And Jason asks, how are youcombating the constant urge to
grow, improve, and the hedonictreadmill that is being a human
being and always thinking wehave to strive for bigger,
better. Personally, I have neverreally resonated with this
question. I understand whypeople ask it. I understand why
it's I I understand this idea ofbeing at peace and content. For

(47:31):
me, the fun part is the idea of,like, how can we grow this?
How can we get more people? NowI don't I I have enough in terms
of I think about enough in termsof momentum, in terms of pace,
in terms of whatever. So if wego back to running, I wanna run

(47:58):
at a good pace for as long as Ican until I can't run anymore.
And this pace feels good. Andso, do I have enough money now?
Yeah. But, you know, I like Isaid, it would make me feel more
secure to have a reasonablechunk of cash for my family. So

(48:19):
am I still striving for more?Yeah. But the the big thing for
me is if I had to force myselfto run harder and faster in
order to achieve, you know, bythe time I'm 70, I wanna have at
least 4 or 5,000,000 in thebank.
I I don't think it's worthchanging the pace because this

(48:40):
pace is enough for me Right. Atleast for right now.

Jon (48:43):
Yeah. I mean, if you were working if you had to change
your pace and your lifestyle andhow you worked and everything by
the to get to that point whenyou're 70, like, you might not
enjoy those years at all. Andthen and then what's the point?
You're 70 and you have a bunchof money, but Yeah. You're
burnout and unhealthy.
And I don't, yeah, I don't knowwhat the I don't know what

(49:03):
enough is really, but it's,like, it's already enough. Mhmm.
Yeah. But I still enjoy it. I'mnot but I'm not sitting here,
like, oh, we have to grow hugeand get more and bigger and,
like

Justin (49:17):
Yeah. Exactly.

Jon (49:19):
I think that's I think that will happen as, like, an
aftereffect of us just buildinga good product and, you know,
helping our customers out andand all that.

Justin (49:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Putting in a work at a reasonable pace. It's
like in the same way that, youknow, you can get real hyped up
on, like, getting a perfect bodyor something and just go hard at
the gym for a month. But,really, what's gonna make a
lasting change is walking towork every day and eating, you
know, a salad every day orwhatever those Yeah.

(49:52):
Little and just finding a pacethat works for you. And, you
know, the other thing is, like,when I go running see, now I'm
talking like I'm a runner. WhenI go running, which has been 2
times this year, I'm not I'mit's not enough for me to stay
at whatever it is, a 3 or 4kilometer run. You know? I want

(50:17):
to hit a 5 kilometer run, andeventually, I wanna work my way
up to a 10 kilometer run.
So it's not enough to just stayput. That's that's there is no,
you know, if I had to stay put,I don't know if I would wanna
keep living. Right. What's whatmakes sense is seeking more at a

(50:38):
reasonable pace, and, that'skind of still where I'm at. Jon
Yong Fook, who's an if you'renot following him, he's an
awesome indie SaaS founder,founder of Bannerbear.
He said, what are your thoughtsnow on open startups versus
private, the most impactfuldecisions you've made, and how
has your job changed year toyear? Open startups versus

(51:03):
private, I think it was reallygood for us at the beginning. A
big draw for transistor still,and one of our big advantages in
the market is we told our story.And, I just had someone who's
pretty big in the podcastindustry reach out just cold
email and say, hey. And I'vebeen, like, trying to get on

(51:25):
this person's radar forever.
And they just said, hey. I justlistened to all the build your
SaaS episodes after theylistened to the Dave Zohrab
episode because it was kind ofabout podcasting, and then they
went back through our story

Jon (51:37):
Mhmm.

Justin (51:38):
And, just really enjoyed it. So I think it's helpful at
the beginning. I think I don'tthink it's healthy to do it
forever. Just even like thebuffer, which was kind of like
the first company that did openstartups. I'll try to include
this tweet.
But now the big thing goingaround Twitter is that they've

(52:01):
peaked in terms of ARR, and nowthey're going down the other
side. And that must not beawesome for morale to have to
share that publicly.

Jon (52:10):
Right. Yeah. I mean, I I think it helped us. I think
recording our podcast and ourjourney was more impactful than
showing our financials. ButYeah.
Yeah. Yeah. You turned it off.

Justin (52:21):
Yep. Yeah. Me too. Most impactful decisions you've made.
Again, I think it's just itreally is the foundation you set
and the things you put in motionwhen you start.
Yep. And so, the actually, theonly other thing I think I would

(52:41):
have changed at the beginningis, you know, we hire a lawyer.
We asked each other a bunch ofquestions. I would have, I
think, hired one of these,startup founder counselors or
therapists or whatever

Jon (52:55):
Mhmm.

Justin (52:56):
To just sit down with each of us and be a middle
person to really walk through,like, some of those questions
that, you know, maybe you don'twanna ask Right. At the
beginning. Because I think wejust got lucky in so many ways.
Like, the the old joke on thepodcast was I was like, John,
you could be an axe murderer,and I wouldn't know. You know?

(53:17):
Like, that like, we knew eachother, but it was like, I think
we just got lucky, and thiswould have been impossible if
either of us had chosen a badpartner.

Jon (53:29):
Right. You know what I mean? You didn't know about the
background check it in here. Ididn't tell you about that. It
was great.
Like You're good.

Justin (53:36):
There there's, like, you you just hired a PI who, like,
could take photos of me insteadof

Jon (53:41):
He surveilled your house for weeks.

Justin (53:43):
So. He just drinks a lot of coffee. Eats a donut every
week. They're just, likeactually just looking at my
Instagram feed. So, yeah, it'swho you partner up with.
It's what market you choose. I'mgonna keep banging that drum
forever. It matters so much.And, the other thing is, it was

(54:04):
all of the decisions John and Ihad made individually up to that
point in, you know, I'm 38 andJohn's 37, when we we decide to
partner up, everything we'vedone in the past that we are now
bringing to that relationship,and we are now bringing to that
company, the people we met, thenetwork we built, the skills we
built, all of that stuff that isincredibly impactful. So to to

(54:30):
have cultivated a life that bythe time we were ready to
partner up, we had all of this,you know, these rich rich,
fields to cultivate from, Thatwas very helpful.

Jon (54:44):
I will I'll add one more thing to to that, and I think
that is to hire slowly anddeliberately. Yeah. We waited a
while to hire. I mean, we hiredHelen part time at first, and
that worked out really well, andthen hired her on full time,
which, you know, we definitelytalked about. It wasn't the
easiest decision.
Yep. But it worked out reallywell. And then hiring Jason, we

(55:07):
went back and forth a lot onthat. And if we wanted to hire
another developer, it is becauseof the, you know, the it's our
largest expense by far, and wedidn't really know if we needed
it. We didn't know if we wantedto, you know, increase the pace
of the parts of the productwe're building.

(55:27):
Yeah. But, ultimately, thatworked out, I think, better than
either of us could haveexpected.

Justin (55:33):
Yeah. So Yeah. And and it is worth being protective
about that. You know? Like, wedo get people applying for jobs
every once in a while, and Iappreciate those people who are
putting themselves out there.
I think it's really, it's hardapplying for jobs and asking to
work at places, but we areincredibly protective of this

(55:54):
group we built. Yeah. And, thenext hire we hire will almost
certainly be somebody that wehave a existing relationship
with. And so I think, again,that goes into that idea of
cultivating, you know, having 3decades or 2 decades or whatever
it was by the time we met ofcultivating these relationships

(56:15):
that we could, you know, tapinto. Yep.
So yeah. But hiring slowly hasbeen great. We when there's a
reset there's a loomingrecession, and we are not
worried that we're not gonna beable to meet payroll. Yep. How
has your job changed year toyear?
I mean, definitely changed oncewe hired people.

Jon (56:34):
Mhmm.

Justin (56:35):
Once we hit, you know, a certain number, there were
certain parts where I relaxedfor sure. Yeah. And I think
that's been really healthy. Andalso when you add people, I
think there is another part ofit that speeds up, which is now

(56:55):
you have other peoplechallenging you and then giving
you ideas. And, you know,Helen's talking to customers all
the time and saying bringing usstuff, and it's like, okay.
Well, now we gotta listen tothis stuff, and it's important.
And, so I think, you know, nowthe pace of I I still think
we're calm, but the pacedefinitely changed once we hired

(57:19):
people.

Jon (57:19):
Yeah. I think we I think if we hadn't hired people, we we
may have started to become alittle complacent and sort of
just, like, you know, thoughteverything was fine. But Yeah. I
they both injected, like, areally nice amount of energy

Justin (57:34):
Yes.

Jon (57:35):
Into our day to day and the the company in general.

Justin (57:38):
Yep. Yep. Totally. Totally. Totally.

Speaker 6 (57:44):
Hey, build your SaaS listeners. Chris, the editor
here. As Justin alluded to inthe episode, we're gonna break
this up into 2 episodes. So makesure to come back for the next
episode when Justin and Johnanswer your questions about
advice for startups, deciding ontheir tech stack, how they
decided on pricing, hiring, andwhether they have more or less
stress in their lives nowcompared to when they started
transistor.fm. And before we go,let's get John back in here to

(58:06):
thank the Patreon supporters.

Jon (58:07):
Let's see who we got here. We have Jason Charnes, Mitchell
Davis from recruit kit.com.au,Marcel Falais from we are bold
dotaf, Alex Payne, Bill Kondo,Anton Zorin from prodcamp.com,
Harris Kenny from the intro toCRM podcast, Oleg Kulik, Ethan

(58:31):
Gunderson, Ward Sandler fromMemberspace, Russell Brown from
Odevo dotcom, Noah Praill, ColinGray, Austin Loveless, Michael
Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and JackEllis from Fathom, my brother
Dan Buddha, Darby Frey, AdamDevander, Dave Junta.

Justin (58:50):
Junta. And

Jon (58:53):
Kyle Fox from get reward for dot com.

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