Paul Jarvis: gaining freedom by building an indie business

Episode Transcript
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Justin Jackson (00:12):
Hey, welcome to Build your SaaS. This is the
behind the scenes story of whatit takes to build a web app, a
SaaS, an indie startup in 2023.I'm Justin Jackson. I'm the
co-founder of Transistor. Andthis week, I've got a real treat

(00:35):
for you.
I spoke with my old friend, PaulJarvis. Paul Jarvis: the guy
that invented the internet![chuckles] Well, actually, he's
the cofounder of FathomAnalytics. And Paul and I did a
mastermind for years. A a weeklyhangout with, Jarrod Drysdale.
The 3 of us would get togetheron Zoom and talk about our

(00:59):
businesses, talk about life.
And, Paul and I had not spokenin a while. So we thought we
would Do a call, but also recordour little audio reunion for all
of you and, publish it on ourpodcast feeds. Paul and his
co-founder Jack have an amazingpodcast called Above Board,

(01:20):
which you should go check out.Anyway, here is my conversation
with Paul.

Paul Jarvis (01:26):
Paul Jarvis. What is happening? How's it going?
Not too bad, man. How are you?

I'm sorry. I was just a little bit in a rush
because it's my oldest son's18th birthday.

You don't have enough gray hair to have an 18
year old.

Dude, I've got Sadie too – she is going into
her 3rd year at UVic. She's 20.She'll be she'll be 21 In
December, which isthe same age I was when I got
married. So...

Jeez. Wow.

Dude, it's good to see you. It's been so long,
man. And things for you aregood? You're enjoying not being
on the Internet?

I mean, yeah. More and more every day. It seems so
trivial to me. The longer I'moff of The longer I'm offline,
the more trivial everything onthe Internet seems. And it's
weird because, like, when I wason the Internet, like, none of
it seemed trivial.
And now all of it does.Everything. Because Jack tells

(02:42):
me Jack tells me about theInternet every day.

Yeah. You get he probably gives you the Coles
Notes every week or something.

Exactly. He tells me what's going on in in the
startup space and with Laraveland all of that.

And and you're just like, great.

Just like, cool. I'm a get back to work now.

Have you been have you been spending time? Are
you still doing some gardening?Are you still what's
recreational, Paul, look likethese days if you're not writing
a newsletter, you're not writinga blog.

Not writing anything. Yeah. I don't spend
any time on the computer unlessI'm working. Like, unless I have
to be on the computer, I don't.So right now I'm in I'm doing a
kitchen reno, which

I don't right now.

Yeah. I don't, I don't.

You don't. Yeah. No. Don't do that at all.

Don't do that. But yeah, man. I mean, gardening a
lot, hanging out at the beachwith friends a lot, Riding my
electric dirt bike a lot. Oh,sweet. Just being outside.
Like, it's I mean, it's rainingtoday, which is weird because
it's The island and it's summer,but Yeah. It's, like, 25 degree

(03:46):
other than today, it's 25degrees sunny every single day
for, like, 2 months, And thenit's cool at night. It's
perfect. It's just like, why whynot be outside? Right?

Oh, well yeah. And take me through this. So,
like, A typical day for you now.What does it look like? What
what's like, what are you doing?

Yeah. I mean, Wake up early. I've always woken up
early.

How are how early were you talking about
here?

Between 46. So Oh, okay. Wow.

I didn't realize you were always that up that
early.

Yeah. I mean yeah. Usually about 5 or 6, but
lately, My body's been like, thesun's out. Okay. Get up.
But I mean, like, Jack is, Iguess, 2 hours ahead. Our other
folks are 8 hours ahead. So thehowever early I wake up, I'm the
last person

something to work.

So yeah. And then I work for several hours, and then
I usually, like, make lunch,which takes a little while. And
then go do then go outside more.Yeah. So I I it's still like I
still I think I've alwaysworked, like, 4 to 6 hours a
day.
Yeah. And it's still about 4 to6 hours a day.

And no other computer time outside of that?

I mean, like at night we we'll watch like
Netflix and stuff. Like Yeah.But Yeah. Like, I try to be in
the sunlight, like, actually inthe sunlight for some of the day
and then just, like, beingoutside with light For Yeah. A
lot of the day too.
So

And no phone time? Are you pretty good?

Just My screen time Jack was asking about this. He's
like, my screen time is, like, 4hours or 6 hours or whatever it
was. I think mine's, like, 20,30 minutes. Like, if I need to
look something up, I'm notgonna, like, not look it up.
But, otherwise, like, I justDon't care, I guess.
Like, it's just not nothing Idon't know. It I'm curious

remarkable, man.

Yeah. I'm curious about How you do things as well
running a business. But, like,there's not that many emerge
like, there's not that manyemergencies. There's not many
things that are like, Oh, I needto deal with this now versus
tomorrow or the next. Mhmm.
I do I will caveat that with Ido work 7 days a week, 4 to 6
hours, not 5 to 6 hours.

Okay.

Because I like work I like working. Like, I like to
get my work done in the morning.So Saturday and Sunday, I don't
care.

Just another day and you like to consist the
rhythm. When you and I weredoing that mastermind call every
week, How long ago do you thinkthat was? That we we kinda
stopped it right when we wereboth starting our current
companies.

Probably 4 or 5 years ago. Yeah. So probably
It's pre it's way pre COVID.

It was pre COVID. Yeah. So 2018 is when we
stopped, and we probably Yeah.Did those calls for at least 3
years. Mhmm.
It felt like you were in alittle bit different of a place,
but I was, like, still reallybuilding up to something. I had,
like, a few good line drivesMhmm. At the time I mean and you

(06:59):
know what that kind of businessis like running when you're
launching courses. It's just alot of launching. Oh, yeah.
And so It often felt like thosecalls, we were just, like,
always talking about what we hadjust launched, what the results
were, How we felt about that.And then it was, like, gearing
up for the next thing. And thiscycle, the difference with the

(07:21):
SaaS is, Again, every businessis different, but when you
launch something that has legsand it gets running, Its
momentum really does carry youkind of by itself a lot more
than other businesses I've done.And so these days, My cadence

(07:42):
feels way more, like, justshowing up every day and pushing
the rock a little bit furtherdown the path, you know? Yep.
Does it feel like that for youtoo?

Oh my god. There's some weeks where Jack and I are
like, we both worked really hardthis week. Like, yep. Yep. Like,
The fuck did we do?
It's like, we put out a1,000,000 little fires that
needed to be put out andnothing. I think that's probably
the biggest struggle that that Ihave is there's no beginning and

(08:14):
no end. Yeah. It's just allthings that need to happen, and
most of them aren't very big andforgettable. Yeah.
And then It's just, like, on tothe next thing. Yeah. Like, even
we were I was talking to our,digital privacy officer this

(08:34):
morning, and she's like, Whatare you guys even working on
with Fathom right now? I'm like,a ton of stuff. She's like,
what?
I'm like, I don't even know.There's just, like, It's just
I'm working on a billing box,like, the the UI of a billing
box Yeah. Today. But I I won'tremember that tomorrow because
it's it's kind ofinconsequential. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's like Yeah.

I almost don't like it when people ask me what
I'm what I'm up to because it'slike, like, maybe I have an
email in my inbox from my lawyerabout a bunch of stuff he wanted
me to check over. And I'm like,John and I talked about it, and
we're like, oh god. We justdon't have time for this right
now, so we pushed that to theside. But that's still running
in my brain. And then I'mtraining a new customer support

(09:19):
person, And then I'm also stillhave a Canadian company that I
have to run, and so I'm, like,talking to the accountant about
that right now.
And then, oh, man, I shouldprobably write a blog post
because content is kind of likethe lifeblood of the business.
Like, we write content, and thenwe get Rank for search terms.

(09:40):
And that's like, oh, yeah. Ishould probably also check on
the search terms. And then, oh,yeah.
Someone needs to get someone'sgotta run payroll. So there's
just all these things. You know,in the beginning, it was like we
were growing 20% month overmonth, 30% month over month. And
now, like, We've definitelyplateaued in the sense that
we're still growing, but it'slike every month, it's just like

(10:04):
It's smaller. You know what Imean?

Yeah. Yeah.

And, part of it that is part of that's great
because I feel like in mostmarkets, it's like the wave of
the market is gonna carry youmost of the time. Right? So The
the wave of the podcastingmarket, I feel like, has taken
us to its kind of natural ournatural cruising altitude.

Yep.

And then it feels like I don't know how you
feel. I mean, you've had someexternal things that have
probably affected your business.Like, I imagine yeah. Google
anal has Google Analytics beencrazy for you? Like, that new
people switching?

I mean, when Google killed off, Universal Analytics,
it was a lot. Yeah. And we sentthem a cake. I don't know if you
saw the

Yes. I saw that.

We actually sent Google headquarters A cake
thanking them for GA 4 becauseit feels like Google is wants To
just not have SMBs as customersfor analytics? Yeah. And we're
like, hi. Yeah. Fathom's overhere.
Perfect. Positioned. Like, wecan't even control that. But I

(11:15):
think I don't know if youremember, like, the week that I
launched Fathom with theprevious cofounder was the week
that Zuckerberg was testifyingin front of Congress for privacy
issues. Yeah.
And just, like, there's thingslike that that just had like, I
can't time those things. It'sjust shit that happens Yeah.
That's beneficial. Yeah. And Ithink even with podcasting,

(11:36):
like, Through the pandemic, itseemed like a lot of people were
finding podcasts Yeah.
Starting podcasts. And it's justlike you didn't get to plan
that, but If you can capitalizeon it, then awesome.

Yeah. And, also, I mean, I think it's kinda like
it's because I've I've beenusing this surfing metaphor
forever, and you're you're areal surfer. So that I've never
actually gone surfing. But Myunderstanding is, like, when
you're when you're paddling outfor a wave, you've gotten a
sense of, like, this is how it'sgonna perform. You know?
It's like, oh, that's a prettygood size wave. You're looking
at the shape of a wave. But awave can, like, do things that

(12:11):
you didn't expect that can begood or bad. Mhmm. And I think
it's kinda like that.
You're riding the wave, and allof a sudden it's like, Oh, wow.
Like, I'm gonna get a lot more alot more ride out of this than I
thought, or now it's swellingand whatever, and I'm gonna go
this way. And You can't reallycontrol the wave. You can
control which waves you paddleout for. Like, you can say, you

(12:32):
know what?
That looks Pretty good that thesize and shape of that wave, I'm
gonna go up for that one asopposed to a bad wave. Right?
Like, I think that's the that'swhere the The metaphor is kind
of its most poignant is thatit's possible to paddle out for
a wave that's not gonna lastvery long. And in some ways,

(12:54):
like, the course business thatyou and I were both in is like
that every course you you'relike swimming out. It's like,
okay, here's a little one.
It's like, okay, You know, we'rewe're kinda done as opposed to,
like, oh, here's a fair sizedwave. There's not a ton of
Competitors on it. Not a ton ofother people gunning for that
wave, and it feels like theright size and shape of

(13:17):
something I could ride. Do youthink that metaphor works? Is
there is there anything aboutsurfing I'm missing?
I think

so. Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that What you
just said, the last point, makesa lot of sense because not every
wave is right for the surferYeah. As well. Right?
Like, I can depending on thetype of board I'm riding, like,
that's not gonna be a good wavefor me on a longboard today. You

(13:42):
every business owner wants tohave a business that's
sustainable, successful,whatever that means for but,
like, it doesn't like, mestarting something like Airbnb
would be a Stupid idea. Yeah.Like, I I wouldn't function well
if I had to have like, if I hadto set up in every single market
around the world and have 100 orthousands of employee. Like,
that doesn't like, that's notthe right way for me to do

(14:03):
anything.

And there's also That's the equivalent of getting
somebody to tow you in on a seadoo. That's venture capital.
That's like you're like, we needsome we need we need we need to
drop this guy on this wave froma helicopter. It's like, okay.
Well, good luck, Buddy andthat's why so many of those guys
crash and burn.
It's, like, the wave is massive.You're gonna need some help
getting on there, and then goodluck. Right?

Yep. There's also sets as well. Right? Like,
there'll be when you're sittingout when you're sitting past the
break waiting for Waves. There'susually like, there'll be a lull
where there's no waves.
Yeah. And then there'll be abunch of waves. And you can
usually, if you're sitting outthere for long and if you can
read it, Like, there's usuallyabout like, I'm sitting out

(14:45):
there. It's like, okay. There's,like, a minute between sets, and
there's, like, 2 or 3 good wavesin the next set, and then I can
wait And just kinda, like, bobup.
And that's why you see all thesurfers just, like, sitting out
there bobbing up and down. It'slike it's it's in between sets
at the moment, so I'm justgonna, like, Wait for it. Yeah.
And I think that's the, like,what we were talking about a
minute ago about just, like,capitalizing on things you can't

(15:07):
control. You can't control thestats.
You can't control the waves. ButIf you can capitalize on
externalities that happen Mhmm.Then you can get a little bit
further. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. And there's another part of that
that I love. The the the surfingmetaphor is so potent. Like, I
would've I wish I could've usedsomething that I do like
snowboarding, but it doesn'twork in the same way. But surfer
surfers have that thing where ifyou're in the water and you've
been in those waters before, soyou might have had a favorite
bought into Fino or something.

Yeah.

You know the water. So on any given day, if
there's a good wave coming, ifyou've been in the water, You
have a better chance of catchingthat wave for a variety of
reasons. You know that area. Youknow how the waves appear. You
know the feel.
You know, what looks like goodweather, bad weather, you know,
how hard you're gonna have topaddle out, you know, all of

(16:02):
those things. Right? And I thinkI'm I'm I've been stressing
about this talk I have to give.I haven't given a talk in a
while, and they want me to talkon how I would start an indie
business in 2023. And thechallenging part about this is
that Paul starting Fathom.
Paul and Jack starting Fathomand John and Justin starting

(16:25):
Transistor. Is the accumulationof being in waters for a long
time, Spending a lot of timepracticing paddling, spending a
lot of time practicing swimming,check understanding the weather,
understanding the patterns,picking up Layers and layers of
skills, better equipment, betternetworking, better, friends, you

(16:49):
know, like, All these things addup to Yeah. You being able to
see a great wave and saying, I'mgonna go out for that. Now if,
you know, I'll just make up aname. Like, Simon just shows up
at your spot for the first time,has never been on a surfboard
before, Or is from a different,you know, a different place and

(17:10):
doesn't understand how thewaters work.
Right? If he's only servedCalifornia waves and he tries to
surf Tofino waves, it's a It's abrand new ocean. Right? And I
think it's hard to communicateto people, like, being an
entrepreneur and starting Abusiness that's gonna work, it's
like an accumulation ofeverything that's happened to

(17:31):
you to that point And what youbring at that moment in those
waters for that wave. And, ofcourse, Some people mentioned to
me when I talking about a goodmarket, and the people I don't
know why people get upset.
Like, I'll mention, I'll belike, check out all these
amazing indie businesses likeFathom, Transistor, Laravel,

(17:51):
Tailwind, and they're like,well, you guys are like, you
know, whatever. They they wannadismiss these incredible indie
businesses. And my point alwaysis they're like, well, analytics
like, if I started an analyticscompany, I wouldn't be able to
do as well as Paul and Jack. AndI said, that's the point. That's
the whole point.

(18:12):
Like, if I showed up in Tofinoand went surfing with you, For
sure, you would catch morewaves. It's just the way it is.
If you came to Silver Starsnowboarding with me, this was
proven to me because mycofounder, John is an amazing
athlete. Can kick my ass in anysport, running, whatever. We go
we go snowboarding inRevelstoke, and it's like the
one thing Where I'm in the lead.

(18:34):
You know what I mean? So I knowyou're not in the business of
giving advice to people anymore,but how when when you advise
people, That is a tricky part.Like, do you have any

Yeah.

Any ways you've spelled it out that that helps?
Or Yeah. I mean,

I think experience is a moat. Yeah. Right? Like,
you can do it without that, butit's harder. And I think the and
and it's A self fulfillingprophecy after a while too.
Right? Because in the beginning,like, I had the experience of
all of the things that I did.Yeah. And when I launched
Fathom, I launched it to myaudience. Like, I don't I don't

(19:10):
know how to go out and, like,promote things as I've never
done that.
Yeah. But I had a group ofpeople who followed along from,
like, my vegan cookbook to,like, web design to books to
courses to and they just kinda,like it didn't even it didn't
even matter what the top like,it didn't matter what the niche
was, what the topics was, whatwhen it people just fucking

(19:32):
followed along. Yeah. Like, notall of them, but enough of them
where it kinda gained traction.And with Fathom, it was just
like I launched it to mynewsletter.
Danny, who is the originalcofounder, launched it to his
newsletter, for WordPress folks.Right? Like, That kind of was
the catalyst to kick off growth.And then as it's gone on, we

(19:53):
have The experience of havingcustomers for 4 or 5 years who
are just, like, all in onFathom. Mhmm.
Right? And the more that theystick around, the more that they
like it and the more that theyfeel like a connection to it. So
just the the fact that you existfor a long enough time in a
market Yeah. One is a good trustsignal Because it's like, you
haven't gone anywhere. Youhaven't disappeared.

(20:14):
Like, that's Yeah. There are somany analytics companies that
started around the same time asFathom that basically were just
to fathom. Mhmm. They don'texist anymore. Yeah.
Don't care then. Don't care now.There's there's more now. Don't
care. Yep.
Because I think part of it isthe the reputation. Yeah. Right?
Like, the reputation that I had.Mhmm.
The reputation that Jack hasYeah. That he's been building

(20:35):
Yeah. Quite well over the lastcouple years. And I think that
that's, like and I don't thinkthere's a hack to that. I don't
think there's a You could becomefamous instantly, and you're not
gonna have the pull of the swayor be able to build the moat as
somebody who has just been,like, Yeah.
Trucking along, doing the thing,like like you and me in the
begin. It's not like we even 6like, We did well enough to keep

(20:58):
going, but we didn't like yousaid, it was just like line
dries, line dries Yeah. Thing.And and I don't think it even
matters. Like, I don't think atthe beginning, You can even fail
a bunch of times, and I don'tthink it really matters.
But it's building that kind of,like, just awareness of What you
want and what the market wantsfrom you kind of thing.

Yeah. And in some ways, it's like surfing is
such a great example because ifIf I wanted to start surfing,
I'm 43. I just know, okay, well,what would that take? I'd I'd
need to move somewhere where Icould surf every day or at least
every week. And Mhmm.
I would I know I would suck atthe beginning. I know I probably

(21:38):
Need lots and lots of time inthe water. I'd probably need a
coach. I'd probably be and Icould also see kind of my
trajectory in that, You know,it's like but guaranteed, if I
moved moved somewhere wherethere was surfing every day and
I took it seriously and I showedup Every single day, I would get
better. And eventually, I wouldbecome a pretty good surfer.

(22:02):
Mhmm. And it it's kind of likethat in business. It's like You
gotta get in motion. And inmotion could mean you start
blogging, And you're justblogging every day, and it's
like that puts you in motion.And then because you did that,

(22:22):
That leads to like, you and Iprobably met through either
blogging or podcasting.
1 of the 2. And It's just eachof these things, like, meeting
you and Jared at that point inmy life when we started that
mastermind was Crucial for me toget to the next thing. Like,

(22:44):
without that connection, itwouldn't have happened. But We
would have never made thatconnection if I hadn't started
blogging or started writing anewsletter or started podcasting
and built some skills, like,actually Gotten a job in
customer support and then workedmy way up to product manager.
And then, you know, it thesethings all build on each other.

(23:05):
If someone wants to build anindie business, you kind of just
have to get in motion, and itcould happen faster than it
happened for you and I. We knowyounger people that, you know,
like, Nathan Barry just startedway earlier. He started when he
was 16 or something, and nowhe's 18. Yeah.

I think he makes, like, $80,000,000 a day with
ConvertKit or something likethat.

But the key like, you can't hate on them
because You can look back on it,and you can just see, like,
these are the reps. Like, hestarted

Mhmm.

And he was just, like, Got a job, I think, when
he was 17 at a web agency andjust started working and then
built his own iPhone app andjust It's iterations bunch

of info products.

Yeah. It's being in motion. And if you look at
any of these guys, like TaylorOtwell with Laravel. He just
starts programming in PHP,wanted to make programming in
PHP better, Starts building thisthing. But in his mind, he was
building an invoicing app.
Like, that was his goal.

Yeah.

And Adam Wavin, when Adam Wavin Stumbled into
Tailwind. He was building a,like, a Gumroad competitor, and
he's just, like, live streamingit.

Mhmm.

So, yeah, I I don't know if like, it's it's
hard to communicate that topeople to say because if if
someone comes to you and andyou'd In some ways, the question
is, like, well, like, what risksare you taking? How are you
putting yourself out there? Whatwork are you putting out? What
are you doing to expand yourworld a little bit and to get

(24:44):
yourself in motion. And that thecomment is well, I'm not I'm
just like, Yeah.
I'm staying in my little bubble.It's a lot harder, I think, to
start a business in that sense.And then the second thing I
think about a lot with you andtale you and Fathom and all
these other businesses Is thatone of the way reasons you were

(25:07):
able to launch an analyticscompany is because you've been
using analytics for a long time.Mhmm.

And Since Urchin.

Yeah. Since since the like, I'm sure you you
tried you you were familiar withstats in, in medium, Google
Analytics, WordPress had stats,Mailchimp had stats. Like, you
just think back all the way backto probably, page counters and
things like that.

Do you remember Mint? I think Sean Inman made
it. Mint. Have a Mint? No.
Mint stats. Mint stats? Such ait was, I think, half a mint. I
wonder if that still exists. Ican't even find it anymore.

Oh, have a mint. Here we go. Yeah. Here it is on
Smith.

This is literally Fathom, but, like Like, I used
Mint. And this is like I usedMint probably 20 years ago. And
I was like, this is cool. It'slike a single page of analytics.
And then it they'd went away.
I was like, oh, that sucks.Mhmm. And then, like, I don't
know. I I didn't think about itfor 10 years, and then I was
like, Google Analytics is adumpster fire of clicking

(26:14):
around. Why can't I just haveone page?
Like, I don't I don't careenough about analytics to spend
that much time in analytics. Andthat's really what Fathom is.
It's like, you don't care thatmuch about stats Yeah. But you
just want Some of them and yeah.

Well, this is the other thing about being in
the water for a while is youyou've seen So many tides come
in and out. This happens in allsports. It's like, you know, a
decade ago, they couldn'timagine Professional servers
couldn't imagine riding some ofthe waves they're riding today.
It was just like, it's notpossible. But in the same way,

(26:51):
Things that maybe didn't workout in, you know, 99 on the web,
they could have a second A newtide could come in, and all of a
sudden that idea, the thetectonic plates of the world
have shifted, and all of asudden it's like, You know what?
Now's a great time to start tostart a simple analytics

(27:14):
company. Right? Yeah. And youhad that seed in your head from
From this product here, like,this was this is I think they
launched in 2,005.

Wow. Yeah.

Oh, I I do remember this. Oh my

this It was great. Like, I loved it, but it was
just such a, like, little nichething. And I think he sold it
for $20 For, like, a one timebecause SaaS didn't exist then.
Yeah. Like, there there wasn'tsuch a thing as, like, oh, you
can charge money every month forsoftware.
Yeah. Yeah. This There can bemargins in software
indefinitely.

Well, and this is another thing is, like, when
people ask me if you can still,You know, is there still any
room in SaaS? Mhmm. I think somethings have gotten harder. Like,
channels are way noisier thanthey used to be. There's also
gonna be sometimes the worldjust operates on a frequency
that you might not like.

(28:10):
Like, if nowadays, if the bestway for an indie Company to get
noticed is on TikTok and youhate TikTok, it is gonna be
harder in that sense. Right?Yeah. Yeah. But these thing
these ideas and concepts thatmay have they they always
there's these cycles where it'slike Like, one of the reasons I

(28:30):
thought it would be a good timeto launch a podcast hosting
platform when we did is therejust hadn't been anything new
for years.
And sometimes people are lookingSame with analytics. Yeah. And
and sometimes people are justwaiting for something fresh, and
then it's, like, oh, wow. Thisis a new take on It just feels
cleaner. It just feels moremodern.
It feels like people wanna givesome time they're just ready for

(28:53):
a change. And, sure, a lot ofpeople might keep using the old
thing. But then you've got allthese folks already in motion,
already using Google Analytics,Who are like, oh, god. Like
like, for me, the joy of usingusing Fathom is that I actually
look at it. It's like, it'slike, let let me look at it.
Okay. Simple one pager. I cansee what's going on. Great. I

(29:16):
don't need to do any otherThings is just always it's a
pinned tab in my browser.
And it's just simple. And Ithink there is these kind of
natural turnover periods, where,you know, I mean, talk about
Another area that, you know,maybe is a little crusty is like

(29:37):
the actual mint.com, or you needa budget. I saw people talking
about you need a budget theother day. You need a budget.
It's just kinda old and crusty.
It's still a great business, Ithink. I think they're still
doing great, but there's thisopportunity for something new.
And the other thing that yourealize once you get older is

(29:58):
that There's just new adultscoming online every day. You
know? Like, I was just saying mymy son is turning 18 soon.
My daughter's 20. They're, like,brand new adults, and they have
these thoughts where they'll,like, message me, like, you
know, my daughter will go, Dad,is there any way to, like, save
and bookmark, like, things youwanna read later on the web?

(30:19):
It's like, yeah. There is. Andthey've never heard of any of
these things.
Right? And Yeah. It's like anopportunity to like, when I'm
recommending stuff, I'm like,well, I could recommend Pocket,
but Maybe there's something newthat's better. Like, let's take
a look and see what's happening.There so there's still, I think,
opportunities for people Tolike, okay, it's time to, you

(30:41):
know, there hasn't been anythingnew in this category for a
while.
Let's I mean, FreshBooks.FreshBooks has been out for a
while. Maybe there is somethingnew there. Maybe not. But once
you've spent a lot of time inthe water, Like, in this case,
I'm just saying, like, Internet,society, the world.
This is the one advantage ofgrowing older is you just see

(31:04):
these cycles. You see these sametides come in and out, and
you're like, you know what? Youstart to get a sense for This
might be the right time for, andthen you make a bet. And it's
not to say those bets are alwaysgonna work out. Because, like,
at the same time you launchedFathom, you also launched Pico

(31:26):
or something?

Oh, yeah. That's right. It was basically a medium
because medium, it was gettingtoo massive, and I didn't know
how to use medium after a whileeven though I was one of the
first People using meetings. Iwas just like, let's just have a
writing platform, and there's,like, always a gazillion writing
platforms.

Yeah.

And we didn't even end up launching that. I think
we sold it to Ghost just left itat or Ghost acquired it, and we
left it at that. I totallyforgot about that until now.
Yeah. But I think part of it is,though, is the act of making the
bet because that derisks things.
Because in the beginning, Youhave all of the risk because

(32:05):
it's all in your head.

You don't

know if this thing's gonna work, what's gonna
work, and you don't knowanything other than the idea
that you have, which isimportant an entrepreneur, but
you don't have the you haven'ttested like, it it hasn't been
tested. Like, you don't know ifyour bet is going to pay off or
Send you to broke. Right?

Yeah.

But you need to it the act of actually making the
bet and trying the thing andputting the thing out there
Mhmm. Is, I think, what buildsthat Muscle or what builds that
motor, what builds out whateverwe're talking about here. It's
it's it's that you don't knowhow a market's going to react to
things. Like, Fathom was mepissed off at Google Analytics,
and I just drew up a screenshotand I tweeted it because that's

(32:45):
what I did. Yeah.
Yeah. I was just like, why can'tanalytics just be fucking this?
And everybody's like, yes,please. Fry from Futurama. Like,
take my money.
Futurama's back, apparently.There's a new episode of
Futurama that

shows up

to speed up.

Hot tip. There's a new, there are new seasons of
Beavis and Butthead, And theyare fantastic. Like, like,
better than the originals,incredible writing, hilarious.
You gotta put it out. You gottaship it.

(33:20):
This is kinda like, okay. I'mgonna I'm gonna swim out, and
then you're just you're Tryingout waves is, like, oh, is this
the one? And you're, like, maybenot. You know? We've made it,
like, way too shameful to havesomething that doesn't work out.
You know? It's like, just trysomething, ship it. And if it
doesn't work out, like, it'sfine. It's just That's how it

(33:43):
works. You you go after a waveand whatever.
It wasn't your day or it didn'twork out or it wasn't a very
good wave. It's fine. You justlet it go. But the worst thing
you could do at that point is belike, okay. Well, I'm I'm
packing it in.
You know, I'm I'm done now. I'mnever gonna Paddle out for
another wave. It's, like, no.You gotta just keep the next

(34:04):
day, you gotta get up and paddleout again. Yeah.
The only way you can really geta sense for, Like I said, Adam
started building that Gumroadclone. And as he was dipping his
toe into that water, He was kindof like, Ah, this isn't really
the thing. You know, it's not.It doesn't have that Momentum

(34:26):
I'm looking for. But, man,people are really into this CSS
thing I'm doing.
Maybe I should focus on that.And That's how you kind of
figure things out as you you asyou're in motion, shipping
something, you learn something,you get a new observation, The
market all of a sudden sends youa bunch of take my money gifts,

(34:49):
and then you're like, okay.That's pretty good signal. You
know? Yeah.

I mean, I think it was the Canadian icon Wayne
Gretzky who said that you youdon't get to ride 100% of the
waves that you don't paddle outfor. Is this something like
something like that? I wastrying to make the hockey thing
work for the, for surfing.

Yeah. I like it. You miss you miss a 100% of the
shots. But you

see people you see peep when surfing so you
actually see people because,like, if you're gonna catch a
like, you face The way the wavesare coming, but you have to spin
180 to catch the wave. So you'llsit out there sometimes and see
people who will spin 180 and do,like, 1 or 2 paddles and then,
like, Stop and then let the wavego, and they're like

Oh, interesting.

Doing that makes sense sometimes. If you do that
every time, you're not surfing.Yes. You're sitting on a
surfboard in the ocean. Yeah.
Yeah. Right? So, like, if and ifyou're not putting things out
there for people to give youfeedback on

Mhmm.

There's not like, You you've you've literally
learned nothing. If you work ifyou and this I think this is
probably one of the things thatfrustrates me the the most about
people who are Wanting to starta business or trying to, like, I
wish I could be an entrepreneur.When they, like, do something
and they build it and thenthey're like, oh, no. This isn't
right. Like, I'm just gonna,like, shove Then they'll do it
again with a different justlike, you didn't learn anything.

(36:07):
Don't go to the next thing. Youdidn't learn anything on this
thing. Yeah. Come on.

Put it out there so people can see it.

Yeah.

I mean, that's absolutely the scary part. 100%.
I mean, I can remember. It it'snice when you can do it
iteratively. I think we both didthis with both of our products,
but we, you know, we startedbuilding it, and we started
inviting people slowly.
Mhmm. And then we did anofficial launch. Let's say we
started working on it togetherin, like, January 2018. John and

(36:37):
I launched August 2018, I think.And, you know, you you build up
to something and you're kindagradually putting it out there.
But I had to put my reputationon the line, like, I was
Manually emailing people saying,hey, I'm building this new
podcast hosting provider. Wouldyou switch your podcast to

(36:58):
transistor and pay us for it touse beta software. And there's
something about that of, like,putting yourself on the line
That does get easier the moreyou ship stuff because it's like
Mhmm. I'm putting this out. I'mhoping it works.
And but I'm also Going to bewilling to cut my losses if it's

(37:19):
just not the right thing. Butyou're right. If you just hold
it all in and you don't showanybody and you don't there's,
like, Some people here in Vernonthat

are building a

business. And I'm just so worried because it's
just all in their littleecosystem like they haven't.
It's like, do you have a waitinglist? No. Is there anybody that
you've shown this to and said,hey.
Could you buy this? No. And youjust start to get that anxiety
of, like, Like, even if it'sjust a screenshot, like, how
many designers are afraid tojust, like, send out a image

(37:53):
that they made I'd say, hey.What do you think about this?
Because it is it is you know,you and I have experienced the
dark side of that too.
It is sometimes shitty Puttingyour work out there.

Yeah. I mean, I have 20 years of showing clients
screenshots of things and justbeing, like, brutalized
sometimes. Just like Like, I'vehad people fire me for showing
them the the first round of mockups for a website Wow. And it
being so off, and they've justbeen like, No. No iterations.
No nothing. Just nope. Done. Andthat like, that happens. It

(38:26):
didn't happen very often, but,like, I still like, I viscerally
remember.
Like, I remember the name of theperson who last did that to me
because it's like it stings.But, like, I don't know.
Probably 4 or 500 times thatdidn't happen. Yeah. Yeah.
I was just like, this is aproject that just went fine. Do
you do

you think you focused on freelancing for a
long time. Do you think that'sstill a good path for people?

Not a clue. I literally have no idea because,
yeah, I just I've been So farout of it for so long. Mhmm.
This is another reason why Ikinda just, like, I don't really
need to give advice on theInternet. Because, like, I don't
I feel like the more that I'vefocused in on Fathom, the more
I've kind of like, I sold all ofmy courses with the communities.

(39:14):
Like, I just I don't talk topeople who are starting anymore,
whereas for 20 odd years, I wastalking to people who were
starting. Yeah. And I always hadMy finger on the pulse of not
only what it was like to be atthe top of an industry, but also
starting and trying to getthere. And so I just knew for

(39:35):
the longest time so many peoplewho were starting, and now it's
just like, oh. Yeah.
I just, I don't know. I talkedto like, all of my friends right
now are retired. Really? So,like, I well, all the people
that live around here in themiddle of nowhere don't have
jobs because there's, Like,you're not gonna do anything, so
they're all retired. So, like,when I hang out with them, it's
just like, oh, yeah.

(39:56):
You were working today. I'mlike, yeah. But For a little
bit. Like, not for long. Yeah.
We're still hanging out.

Yeah. You're you're still you're in the semi
retired phase. How how ambitiousdo you feel these days?

None. I mean, I wasn't I guess I was ambitious
to a point. I've always beenambitious to a point

Mhmm.

Where I've always wanted success, but I've more
cared about success on my termsand freedom than just, Like, I
wanna succeed at all cause,like, the WeWork person. Mhmm.
Whatever that guy's name is. TheWeWork person. Yeah.
I watched the it was a goodshow. I watched the Apple TV
thing. Yeah. I just, like, thisguy just did, like, literally

(40:36):
everything possible to win atsomething.

Yeah. I'm just, like, Meh. I don't Like, with
Fathom, are you are you feelinglike you just, like, want it to
keep growing because like, doyou wanna do this for another 10
years?

Not for 10 years now. Another For some amount of
time in between. I don't knowhow long, but, like, 10 years
would probably be Pushing themax.

Mhmm.

But I also like, it could turn into a situation
where I just own Fathom, and I'mnot an operator in Fathom. Yeah.
Which is likely. Like, thatcould possibly happen where,
like, yeah, I I want Fathom tokeep growing because I want to
do well for Jack and I. I wannado well for the people that work
for us.

Mhmm.

Like, I want them to and we're so stickler about,
Like, them be without being,like, pushy about it, but for
them to Have, like, the worklife balance that Jack and I do
where we I just took a monthoff. Jack's heading off for a
couple months, And it's justlike, I just do the work, but

(41:43):
take as much time off as youwant. Mhmm. And I don't like, we
don't care. Mhmm.
Like, we want to as we make moremoney, we wanna pay them more
like, the people that work forus are fucking awesome, and we
never want them to leave Yeah.Kind of thing. Yeah. Right? So,
like, I don't I don't wantFathom to be, like, A 100 person
company

Yeah.

Because that doesn't I don't know. That
doesn't seem fun for me. Yeah.But if we had a couple more
people, if we made a couple morebucks, Cool. Like, that's I'm
I'm down for that.
Yeah. How about you? What whatare you what are you looking for
for Transistor?

I mean, similar. I think the the The one thing in
my head is Transistor does verywell. My income has increased a
lot, and I've been able sincestarting Transistor, I've been
able to put money away everyyear. I still have a little bit
of anxiety because I have such abig family. It still feels like

(42:36):
I'm still trying to put enoughaway where I would feel, like,
totally secure.
You know? But in terms ofambitions for Transistor, like,
when John and I started thebusiness, we were clear from the
beginning, like, Company designis lifestyle design. Like, we're
gonna Mhmm. Design this companyin a way that is gonna give us a

(43:01):
better life. And so Yep.
When things come along thatcould make us more money, but
would add way more complexity,would require, You know, way
more phone calls, way moremeetings, way more whatever the
things are that we don't want.We've said consistently said no.
And it's a little bit morechallenging when you get more
people on the team because thenthey also have their

(43:23):
aspirations, like, they havetheir things they want. And
there's also always going to bea difference between people too.
Like, even just even betweenJohn and I, Our ambitions might
vary slightly.
But overall, I think the idea ofhaving a calm company is what,

(43:44):
You know, attracted John and Ito it, and what our employees
like the best, you know. I mean,that has been incredibly
gratifying to give people Thiscalm work environment where they
have tons of autonomy, where Ihope they still have lots of
purpose and a say, And, youknow, the kind of purpose
they're gonna, you know, theycan come up with their own ideas

(44:07):
and propose them andcompensation. I've always been
the kind of person that we usedto talk you and I used to talk
about this all the time. Ialways felt like that $75,000 a
year thing that to be happy, Ialways felt like that's
bullshit. I think money hasgiven me a contentment and a
peace and a calm That, sure,there's a mark that you get to,

(44:31):
but Mhmm.
I think that mark is Mostpeople, you could pay them more,
and it would help them more. Youknow, like, there there would
just be, like, a peace and acalm in their lives that, I
think and we've seen it. Youknow, we've we've had employees
and contractors that we've beenable to pay well, and that's

(44:53):
made a big impact on their life.So but on the other side, I'm I
I sometimes do get a little bitworried about us getting
stagnant because now if we're atcruising altitude, I go, okay.
Like, it's one thing to justshow up every day and just push
the rock a little bit furtherdown the path.
But There are kind of biggerthings in my head of, like, on

(45:16):
one hand anxiety, like, thiscould all go away. It's unlikely
at this point that I'll wake uptomorrow and it'll all be gone,
but, you know, it could go away.And so, You know, maybe when
everyone was buying podcasthosting companies, maybe I
should have thought more aboutselling. So there's still a
slight bit of anxiety that Ithink drives me. And,

yeah, I

don't know. There's I I I feel like I I I
sometimes I'm like, ah, I wonderif we should just be pushing it
harder and, you know, like, weshould, like, really get serious
about Doing shape up and havingshaping all of our ideas and
then doing these these, youknow, they don't come sprints,
but whatever they call them. AndWe should set some more

(46:02):
deadlines, and we should, youknow, just really be super
focused. But then on the otherhand, I go, but, man, we have
such a good life. So I I don'tknow where to crank all those
levers, you know.
Sometimes I I'm like, man, thisis just such a good life. Should
I mess with it or should I justYeah.

I guess for Fathom, like, I wanna keep improving it.
I think Also, like, there's agood balance between Jack and I.
He's obviously a lot youngerthan I am, and he has a lot more
ambition than I do with, like,oh, let's do this, like, big
feature or this big pivot, andI'm always like the, let's pump
the brakes a little bit there.But, like, we always find a

(46:45):
happy medium where it's justlike, okay. Well, this is
actually a a really good thingto do.
We can kinda play off of eachother And kinda see where each
other's at. Because I think ifit was left to me, Fathom
wouldn't have very manyfeatures. If it was left to him,
it would have a lot of features.And so what people like about
Fathom is that And so whatpeople like about Fathom is that

(47:06):
middle that compromise of like,okay. We did it, but we scaled
it back, Or we added this, butwe didn't add, like, these 18
other things.
Yeah. Because it's hard. I thinka lot of the time too, like, we
have A list of things thatcustomers want. And, like, if we
did all those, we would beGoogle Analytics. Yeah.
And then nobody would be happy.But then all of these people are
like, oh, you should just havelike this, this, and then How do

(47:28):
you deal with, like, theonslaught of, like, never ending
feature requests or suggestions?Or Yeah. Why don't you guys just
do x? Yeah.
Kind of thing.

Yeah. I mean, it has been helpful to have we have
these, like, company values andcompany questions that I still
refer back to all the time,which is, like, if we build
this, will we still be will webe more excited about Transistor
in 6 months or less excited? Ifwe build this, is it going to

(47:58):
feel like, is this gonna addmore complexity? Because we know
everything we add, we have tosupport. And so is this gonna
add something that we don'twant?
You know, now we have thosediscussions as a team, And
often, I'm the one you know, Iwanna push the envelope a bit
and say, hey. Maybe listen.Like, for a while, I was really

(48:19):
worried about All the recordingpodcast recording tools. And I
was like, maybe we need to getinto this market. Like, it's
there's a risk that All of thesetools are gonna add hosting, and
a few of them did.
And we had the discussion. And,basically, At the time, Jason
and John said, as the 2engineers, they said, this would

(48:42):
just be an enormous undertaking.We also have this philosophy
that we've built called wait andsee, which is just like which is
just like, okay. We had Justinhas strong feelings. Right?
Like, can't sleep for a weekbecause it's like, I just feel
this, like, our competitors arecoming for us and maybe we
should be pushing ourselves moreas a team. But then we had the

(49:06):
discussion, and then I was like,okay. Well, why don't we just
wait and see what happens? Andwe wait and see, and it's like,
Actually, it ended up beingfine. You know, it's like Yeah.
Some people launched hosting. Ithasn't really taken off. It's
hard to do multiple things well.And so there's this balance. I

(49:26):
do often think about the hardquestion Is if we launch this,
is it going to meaningfullyimpact the number of new people
who wanna sign up Or the numberof people who will stick around.
And they're those kind of betswhen you really think about them

(49:49):
And go, like, for example, wecould add a podcast advertising
marketplace. Besides The factthat that's a very complex
business, and we can go out inthe market and look at other
people that are doing it and go,no one's doing it well, and
there's probably a reason behindit. It's just Everybody wants
advertisers on their podcast,but there's not that many

(50:10):
advertisers. There's all sortsof problems. And, also, would
that meaningfully change Like,for us, our bread and butter
plan is our $19 starter plan.
It's most of our revenue. Wouldthat meaningfully change the
number of people who are signingup? And I just don't think it
would. It wouldn't it wouldn'tmeaningfully change it. And
would it meaningfully reduce ourchurn rate?

(50:33):
I just don't think it would. Icould be wrong, but I like
weighing things in that sense.Like, for fathom, I think in my
head, The one thing that'smissing is, like, more
conversion stuff. Like, whereMhmm. Like, how can we figure
out who's converting on thispage?
And to me Yeah. That's the kindof feature that if you could do
it within a privacy orientedframework, I think there would

(50:57):
be More customers signing up andprobably more retention. It's
because it's the one big piecethat you're missing. If you're
Oh, we know. But there'sprobably a bunch of things on
that list that if we wentthrough them and maybe this is
where us founders can be helpfulto each other because I think
outside perspective It'shelpful.

(51:18):
You know, there's some times Iask, like, Jason Cohen or
whoever. I'm like, what do youthink about this? And he'll be
like, You know, honestly, that'snot gonna change that's not
gonna change sign ups. Like,it's just not. Those all of
those things together, how we'vekind of managed feature
requests.
Like right now, there's AI,like, You can a lot of people

(51:41):
are adding these one click.It'll transcribe your podcast.
It'll automatically generate atitle. It'll automatically
generate show notes. And I'mfeeling a little bit more
pressure from that now.
At first, I was like, come on.This is just everyone's doing it
or whatever. And I'm like, well,maybe we need to think about it.
It's in play, like, we'reexperimenting with it, but We're

(52:04):
also in the market. I'm in thewater.
Every wave that comes along, I'mright in the water, right next
to all my competitors. It's notlike I'm I've I'm, You know,
somewhere else. I'm there. I'mfeeling it. Yeah.
And if I notice a shift, like,oh, wait a second. Like, You
know, generating these automaticshow notes is just like, this is

(52:27):
a lever we have to pull. Then Ithink we've got the ability as a
small team to actually buildthings pretty quick. And Yeah.
We might be a little bit late,but That's okay too.
You know? It's like when Yeah.When you have existing
customers, I think you canafford to wait sometimes and
just see How things play out.Right?

Yeah. I mean, we were a year later than our
biggest competitor for GoogleAnalytics import.

Mhmm.

And We still got it. Yeah. I mean, I think it was
like 1,700,000,000 Page useimported in the first 24 hours.
Like, we and our sign that wasprobably our best couple weeks
ever. It was probably our bestcouple weeks ever as far as,
like, as far as trials and trialare we really low churn?

(53:19):
Yeah. Like, if somebody signs upfor a trial, They're probably
gonna convert. Yeah. Like,that's just Yeah. We have about

I think we, like, between 7075 percent of
our trials convert, somethinglike that. Nice.

Do you require a credit card upfront or no? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Same.
Yeah. I Have you increased yourprices ever? No. Have you? No.
We have not. We haven't. Yeah.We prob we are going to soon
because we need to. We let youin on a little secret that
obviously nobody else is goingto hear.
We did there was no formula forour pricing. Yeah. For, like,

(53:55):
there wasn't like a a factor forthis many page views Equals
this.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

It was just the numbers that we came up with
that look good. Yeah. Yeah. Nota good way to price. Not a good
way.
So there's some plans whereit's, like, double the page
views, and it's only, like, $10more. And so, like, the pricing
doesn't make sense. So we haveto make it, Especially at the
volume we're at now, we can seebut also in the beginning, we
didn't know how much it wasgonna cut. Like, we didn't know

(54:20):
what our margins were gonna be.Yeah.
We just knew that if we chargethis amount, people like, you
need to have a lower plan. It'slike, I don't think so. Not
based on, like, not based onknowing the internal math. It
doesn't make it makes sensewhere we are for our Starting
price Yeah. Thereabouts, wecould go up a little bit, I
think, but not a ton.
Like, if we went up to, like,$50 a month, I don't think we
would have a business. Like,that wouldn't make sense. Yeah.

(54:42):
But on some of our higher plans,it doesn't there's no equation
to get there. So, like, we needto adjust, And our margins are
and our margins are kinda wonky

Mhmm.

Depending on what plan people are on. So, like, we
need to fix this, And we'veknown we needed to fix this. I
think once we got to about a1000 customers, and we could see
where the math was weird. Yeah.And and so this is years ago too
because I I don't remember whenwe hit a 1,000 customers, but it
was, like, a long time ago.

Yeah.

And so, like, there's little things like that
where If I could, like, wave amagic wand and make Fathom
better right now, it would justbe to fix just these little
things that are kind ofeverywhere in the software.
Mhmm. And even, like, littlethings in the onboarding. Little
things, like, when you closeyour account, it could be
better, which is silly. Like, Idon't care about making that

(55:32):
better, but I do care aboutmaking it better because it's my
thing.
Yeah. So it would be like, if Icould have anything, it would be
to fix, like, All of the thingswe use linear for, like, issue
tracking and bug tracking. Yeah.Yeah. We have a triage, which is
unassigned Tickets that aren'tpart of any project that are
just there.
And we've usually got a couplehundred, and it's just these

(55:54):
little niggles of, like, Alittle thing doesn't work here.
A little thing could be betterhere, and it's just like, if we
could just, like, wipe that outand do them all, I would be so
happy because it's just like, Itjust it I feel like it adds up
in my head. Oh, yeah. Like, thislittle thing and this little
thing and this little thing. So,like, The last I've been pushing
pretty hard on this probably thelast 6 months is no new things.

(56:17):
Yeah. Like, we can only dothings we've already started or
have spec'd, like, it can't beanything else with the exception
of things that are out ofcontrol where we've had some
issues with vendors, so we'vehad to jump on Fixing things

Mhmm.

Or killing things off like custom domains

Yeah.

Where we didn't have a choice. But, literally,
the thing that I say Quite abit. It's like we're not
starting that thing until wefinish the other day. Yeah. And
I have to be the I have to bethat.
But, I mean, that's mypersonality. Like, I am that
guy. Don't mind being But that'sI

think that's a that that's a that's a function
of care. Mhmm. And I think careis still The number one feature
of any software. That that'salways like I've For the summer,
I've hired someone to help withcustomer support during Pacific
Time Zone. Because Helen handlesit in Europe while I'm sleeping.

(57:15):
But often, the next day, I wouldwake up and other people are
pitching in, but I just care somuch about customer service that
I'm the one answering livechats. What I love about that is
cost good customer servicecovers all sorts of gaps. So, of
course, we wanna we wanna fillin those gaps. But if I care

(57:36):
more, I care so much that I'llspend time. I will go over your
podcast.
I will give you advice. I willgive you feedback. I will help
you build your website with yourbrand colors. I will do all of
that. And I know that Daniel Ekat Spotify is not doing that.
Right? Yeah. And that rightthere care, like, caring enough

(57:56):
to say, I've got this list ofniggles in my head that I know
are gonna make the the itbetter, and I'm gonna make sure
that we get those things done.And I actually do care when we
mess up. Like, I it it makes mefeel bad, and I'm not gonna go
golfing.
I'm gonna, like, Actually, sitand write customers an email and

(58:18):
say I'm sorry. This is the otherindie advantage. This is, Jason
Cohen said this to me. He'slike, there's bad indie
companies that don't care, butthe the indie companies where
the founders care, Those are thebest businesses to be a customer
of because they contact you, andthey, like, care. Like, people
Yeah.
If it's Friday night and nobodyelse is answering customer

(58:39):
support and so I see a littlebeep on my phone, I'm answering
it. I just care. I can't Stopmyself because I just there's
there's that feeling of peopleare trying to accomplish
something. And it feels so goodwhen you can help them out.
Right?
When you can make it easier.When it's like, oh, this
onboarding thing isn't working,and it's it's blocking

(59:01):
everybody. Well, I'm just gonnafix it because I care enough to
do it. And then and you couldsee when people don't care
because that's how you kickGoogle Analytics. Like, they
just don't care.
And it's it Yep. It It's it'smind boggling when you
experience it because you'relike, how can they create
software that is so confusing,so offensive to the user? Like,

(59:25):
what it it it doesn't make senseto me. That's part of our
advantages as indie founders isif you care, It's really hard to
combat that. Sure.
So you start a podcast hostingcompany, start a analytics
company. But I'm just tellingyou, like, I care a lot about

Mhmm.

The customers, and that's what you're competing
against.

Yeah. I mean, we help people debug their
WordPress sites. I don't knowwhat's carrying or not. This
horrible is literally the worst.And, like, I it bugs me so much
if somebody's paying us anddoesn't have it doesn't have it
working.
Even if it's their fault becausethere's some setting or some,
like, security policy orsomething that it's a, No. If

(01:00:11):
you're paying us, I want yourfucking stats to work. Yeah. The
the the person that we hired forcustomer support is the same
way. Like and we even told themwhen we hired them, it's like, I
don't care how long it takes toanswer a ticket.
Yeah. Just answer them. Yeah.Like, what do you have to do?
How can I make it easy for youto do whatever you need to do to
fix this thing for this person

Justin Jackson (01:00:32):
who

Paul Jarvis (01:00:32):
was not fixed for? Yeah. And that's like, that's
how we operate. Yeah. Because Idon't like it would bug me I
think I think it's also just afunction of personality.
Like, I don't know how to dothings in a different like, I
don't know how to do I don'tknow how to work where I don't
care. Maybe it's because I'vebeen an entrepreneur for, like,
26 years.

I think I think being a freelancer and a
newsletter writer Are the 2things that this plays into.
Because when you're writing anewsletter, you're getting
replies from real human beings.And I think that's part of where
the care comes from. Becauseonce you can see, like, oh,
wait, there's a real human hereWho's trying to accomplish

(01:01:12):
something in their life, onceyou get into that world, once it
opens up to you and you go,there is a real human being on
the other end of this chat orthe other End of this email or
the other end of the screen whenthey log in. I think a lot of it
comes from that.
And then freelancing, it's thesame thing. You're just, like,
Helping people all the time.You're helping that Main Street

(01:01:33):
business owner create thatrestaurant website or whatever.
You can see everything. You cansee the states.
Yeah. You know? I yeah. I thinkthat's why calling back to that
earlier stuff, just getting inthe water and serving people,
Like, writing a newsletter,writing a blog, freelancing,
doing some work for somebody.Build a Build a restaurant

(01:01:55):
website.
Like, everyone should have to dothat once. Oh god.

The number of restaurant websites that I have
done. Oh, man. But Part of ittoo, I think, is I've always I
guess I've always cared aboutthe business of the person that
I was doing business with.

Mhmm.

Like, I think this is what set me apart. Like, I
was never like, I'm a gooddesigner. I'm not, like, an
amazing designer, but I alwayscared about, okay, how What
would my design what coulddesign do for this business to
make this business do better?Mhmm. And it's all I always
approach everything that I didfrom a place of okay.
Well, I want it's just like withFathom. Like, I want people's

(01:02:35):
websites to do well because thenthey then they have more use for
stats. And it's like we tellpeople, Like, don't use Fathom
sometimes because they, like,they have no traffic or they're
not there's nothing that theycan make money off on their
website, so why spend money onanalytics?

Mhmm.

Right? It's like I can't there's nothing I can do
for that. It's like, if youdon't want your website to make
money or have any kind offunction for business or
betterment, then, like Yeah. Youdon't don't pay us. Like, don't
get like, it doesn't make sense.
Yeah. But if you do, if you dothat, if you do make money, then
let okay. Let's figure out,Like, how you how your business
can be better with this thing.Yeah. Because it's self serving

(01:03:11):
too.
Like, I know that if ifsomebody's going to have a
business and the business doeswell, they're gonna wanna keep
using us, or they're gonna wannakeep paying the web designer.
They're gonna wanna keep Yeah.Like, It it makes sense. Right?
Like, it's a win win.
It's not just, like, altruismand, like, rainbow shooting out
of my fingertips. Yeah. Youknow? Like, There's a there's a
there's a capital list functionof that, but it also just it

(01:03:34):
makes sense. Like, I want peopleto do well.
Like, we're doing well. I wantwant everybody to do well. Yeah.
I I see it as a possibility.Right?
So

Yeah. That's and that's that's indie businessman.
I think when it's done well,It's one reason I'm still a
little bit opinionated about,like, venture capital and mega
corporations. And The world isgonna always have to have some
mega corporations. But thedifference in, what's
motivating, Like, if if yourmotivation is to increase your

(01:04:06):
share price, that is just gonnacascade down to a set of
behaviors that's very differentthan an indie business owner
saying, well, when your podcastdoes well, we feel better about
it and we do like, everyone'sdoing better.
Yeah. You know? It it it weactually do care about how how

(01:04:28):
you're doing, How you're doingwith the product, but what
you're trying to accomplish.Right? This is just a part of
your bigger job to be done.
You're trying to create somepurpose in your life. You're
trying to do Something. Right?Some form of betterment, and, I
think you lose that with adifferent set of incentives.
It's one of the beautiful thingsabout having a small business

(01:04:50):
that works where there's peoplethat want it, but then there's
also this opportunity to servethem in a way that It just
doesn't happen anymore.

Yeah. I mean, I it's the difference between,
like, collaborative versusextractive. And I think as human
beings, like, Collaboration iswhy human beings are, like, what
we are Yeah. Because we'vecollaborated across Individuals
across tribes, across groups ofpeople. Like, it's collaboration
that gets us anywhere

Mhmm.

In in life. Yeah. And with big mega corporations
and insane amounts of venturecapital, like, it's extractive.
It's extracting something fromthe community and putting it in
one person's pockets.

Mhmm.

And like that doesn't that that doesn't seem
natural Yeah. Yeah. Like, justas far as, like, how things
work, like, evolutionarily, butalso it just doesn't seem like
that can't last because if youlook at history, it's never
lasted. Yeah. Like, anytimethere's been a regime that had
all of the Power, all of thecontroller, all of the money.

(01:05:54):
Yeah. Like, the people fuckingrose up with their pitchforks
and came for those people. Yes.And it feels like we're not at
that place yet, but, like, We'renot that far from that place.
Like, if you look at the way theworld is going and with, like,
the hollowing out of middleclass and there just being a lot
more people In poverty, justlike a small group of people who

(01:06:15):
have so much.
Mhmm. It's just like,

I don't

I don't think this is gonna go well. No. Like, it
just it doesn't seem like itcan.

No. No. I I totally agree. I think that's
it's one reason I'm still I am Ihave stayed in the giving advice
to new Entrepreneur spacebecause, again, I think there's
always gonna need to be megacorporations, but the what we
really need is a thriving smallbusiness economy. And Mhmm.

(01:06:42):
You know, most of my customersare small businesses. I'm
guessing most of your customersare small businesses. And to me
that's, that's where theopportunity is. That's where the
better margins are. That's whereThe chance for normal people to
change their lives is, like,kinda all in that space.

(01:07:03):
And, I want I don't want thelast batch of startups to be
Transistor and Fathom and, youknow, these examples that I
always give. I want there to bea new batch that are that's
like, okay. Yeah. We we're stillexcited about this. There's
still opportunities.
And, this can lead to a greatlife for you as founders, and

(01:07:28):
for your employees, And for yourcustomers, it's like, I always
think of it like the company isfor us. That's for an owners and
employees. That's That's us. Theproduct is for customers, and
the purpose of a company is tomake the employees' lives
better. The purpose of A productis to make customers' lives

(01:07:50):
better.
And that to me happens in indiebusiness. That's That's where it
happens. I think it's cool. Ithink it's cool that there are
examples like us that thatpeople can in the same way that
you and I were looking, youknow, we were looking at, like,
PELD and all these other peopleand going, man, I would love to
build something like that. Like,that would be incredible.

(01:08:13):
You know, I hope that there's anew generation that can kinda
get that same vibe and go, yeah,I wanna do that too. You've
already done your part. You yougot you got a young Jack on your
side. You you You've you'vealready brought in the next
generation.

Exactly. He's he's already the yeah. Like, the the
network that he has is Amazing.And it's helpful too. Right?
Like, it's like, anytime there'sa question that we have, he's
like, I know somebody. It'slike, alright. That's that's
awesome. That that was me, like,10 years ago, and it's not
anymore. That's perfect.

(01:08:45):
And that's I'm fine with that.I'm I'm fine to be Jack and
team. Like, that's my role.Yeah. Because I don't want I,
yeah, I don't want anythingother than that.
So

This is great, dude. Really great to catch up
with you. All right. That was sonice to get back together with
Paul and reconnect, and I hopeyou all enjoyed it. If you did
enjoy it, please let peopleknow.
Share the episode on Twitter orthreads or x Or Mastodon, Blue
Sky, Facebook, LinkedIn, Reddit.There's too many things now.

(01:09:18):
But, yeah, we'd love to hearfrom you. If you enjoyed the
Episode. Reach out however youcan.
You can also email us at showsat transistor.fm, or you can
just email me,justin@transistor.fm. Hey. I
need to thank our sponsors,Pascal from Sharpen dot page,
rewardful dot com, Greg Park,Mitchell Davis From

(01:09:39):
recruitkit.com.au, MarcelFollett from we are bold dotaf,
Ethan Gunderson, Anton Zoranfrom prodcampdot com. Bill
Kondo, Ward frommemberspace.com, Russell Brown
from Fotivo dotcom, EvandroSassy, Austin Loveless, Michael
Sitfer, Fathom Analytics.Thanks, Paul and Jack.

(01:10:02):
And Dan Buddha, that's John'sbrother, Colin Gray, And Dave
Joonkta. If you wanna supportthe podcast to get your name
read out at the end, just clickthe link in the show notes that
says support This podcast onPatreon. Thanks again, folks.
We'll see you next time.

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Paul Jarvis: gaining freedom by building an indie business

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