Should a parent with young kids try to bootstrap a new startup?

Episode Transcript
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Justin Jackson (00:12):
Welcome to Build your SaaS. This is the behind
the scenes story of building aweb app in 2023. I'm Justin. And
today I have an internet friendjoining me, Aaron Francis, how's
it going, Aaron?

Aaron Francis (00:28):
Good. It's, it's exciting to be here. I'm a
longtime listener, first timecaller.

this is the first time we've talked. And
it's it's very strange Because Ilisten to you all the time. You
have had a few podcasts. Youhave the Hammerstone podcast.
Right?

Yeah.

Framework friends. Am I missing anything?

A long time ago, I had one called the music
makers. That was, like, thatwas, like, 6 or 7 years ago, but
it is now defunct. So that wasmy first podcast.

Alright. Well, I I listen to your voice all the
time, and I also interact withyou all the time on Twitter. And
we are going to discuss, prettyhot topic this this time, which
is can you bootstrap a newstartup And do that while you

(01:26):
have young kids at the sametime. So can you, bootstrap a
family And Bootstrap, a newcompany at the same time. And, I
had A Twitter thread on this.
And then I also wrote kind of aa blog post that that encompass
some of my thoughts, Which is mereally reflecting on trying to

(01:51):
build multiple things when mykids were young. And now
wondering if that was the bestidea, if I should have just
maybe waited a bit longer to, doboth. Just because, As you know,
starting a family is a lot ofenergy Mhmm. And requires a lot
of focus, a lot of time. Andbirthing a company also is a lot

(02:15):
of energy and a lot of time.

Yep.

So maybe to start out, For folks who don't
know you, explain kinda whatyou're doing right now
professionally, and then shareas much about your family
situation as you'd like. So,yeah, what are you doing
professionally, and then what'sthe the parenting situation
right now?

Professionally, I have a full time job At a
company called PlanetScale,we're a MySQL, platform company.
So I work Full time. Full timejob as a I'm a developer
educator, which means Ibasically, you know, make a
bunch of videos, write a bunchof articles. I did Recently, I
did a very big course on onMySQL. And so that's kind

of amazing by the way. As a Oh, thanks. As as
a sidestep, I think Folks shouldgo check that out. How do they
search for that? It's just like,is it MySQL planet scale?
Will that find Yeah. That would

probably do it. MySQL for developers,
PlanetScale would probably wouldprobably do it better.
PlanetScale.com/courses wouldget you there as well.

It's awesome. People should check it

out. Thanks. Yeah. It was a lot of fun, and a
huge amount of work, which wecan talk about as a part of,
know what we're talking abouthere, because I, you know, work
at this company, which I love,and I love, you know, the stuff
that I do there, which I thinkis important. But I'm also
trying to, like, bootstrap acompany on the side.

(03:41):
And so I have a partner namedColleen, and she and I have been
working on this for, like, 2years now, and it is not, like,
it is not successful yet. It isnot making us enough money to
where I can quit. And so I'mkind of, like, I'm kind of at
the very beginning of this or,you know, hopefully in the

(04:02):
middle. And so when I was seeingyou talk about this on Twitter,
I was like, I will like, we cando an old fashioned, Like an old
fashioned debate, and, like,I'll take the other side. Like,
I have I think I have somethings to say on the other side,
because I also am dad to 2, 2year olds.
So I have I have boy, girl,twins, and they turned 2 on

(04:25):
Saturday. So just, like, a fewdays ago. So yeah. So I've You
are in it. Am very much in it.
Yes.

You were in it, like, you were you were already
on level 2 right before rightwhen you started.

Yeah. Exactly.

Are you playing level 1, but with 2 controllers
at the same time? What what whatmetaphor

do you like? Whichever one of those is
harder. Yeah. Yeah.

I can play 1 character at a time, but I have
to play 2?

Yeah. Yeah. The the on on that note, the good
thing for us is we never hadJust one child, so we're like, I
don't know. I guess this is ashard as it is. Like, I didn't

This is what it's like.

Don't have anything to look back fondly on
and be like, oh, when there wasjust One of them is like, wow.
They're both here now. So

Cool. Well, that I think that sets things up,
perfectly. I was I was justlooking for this tweet that I
saw you had, which was somethingto the effect of you feel like
you're in this stage of lifewhere you want to be kinda going
after it.

Yeah. And I call it my my maximum effort error.

Maximum effort error. So maybe explain that for
me. What does it mean to be inmaximum effort error?

Yeah. So this is something I've I've been
thinking about a lot. I thinkprimarily since the twins have
come, and, you know, Colleen andI are trying to bootstrap This
company, and I'm trying to my mywife is a stay at home mom. She
works harder than I do, but sheworks at home. Right?
And so I'm I'm the I'm the solebreadwinner, and so, like, I
feel a lot of that I feel a lotof that pressure. I feel a lot

(06:03):
of that weight ofResponsibility. And so I think
I, at some point, just decidedthat I was okay Saying that for
this period of time, and I don'tknow what I don't know when this
period of time ends, and I thinkthat's an important thing to to
note, But for this period oftime, this is gonna be a lot of

(06:26):
work, and I'm gonna put in themaximum amount of effort that I
can. And then the latter half ofthat tweet was, at some point in
my life, I would like to enterinto the semi retired leisurely
builder era of my life. I wouldlike to do the Daniel Vesalo
where I just kinda, like, hangout and do a small bet and make,

(06:47):
you know, $200,000.
But, like, Mhmm. I'm not thereyet, and I think it was helpful
for me. It was helpful for me toput a name on it to say, like, I
I see things that I want. I see,you know, Adam Wadden and Ben
Orenstein, like, running thesecompanies, And now you and John
running these companies whereyou do have margin and you do

(07:09):
have freedom.

Mhmm.

I see that and I want that, but I I'm not there.
Mhmm. And to put a name on whatwhere I am, which is my maximum
effort era, has helped mementally be like, okay. This is
the Thing that you're doingright now, and this is
importantly an era that won'tlast forever because I'll tell
you, it can't last forever, andthat has helped me mentally get

(07:31):
to a good spot with that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, a lot of people
Listening to this can identifywith that that thought of I
mean, it it's what drives a lotof people to wanna start their
own company Is this idea of Iwant something better for my
family? This has actually beenin the past when I've had, Not

(07:55):
disagreements, but sometimesthere's folks in the
Bootstrapper community. Youknow, we have things where we
don't understand each other.
And when we got on a call, whatended up being true was that
this particular thing was I Ithink someone had said, you
know, the money wasn't a bigmotivator for them. And I was

(08:17):
like, The money's always been abig motivator for me. And, you
know, money is ultimately, theline would be money is
ultimately not a, You know, it'snot a worthwhile goal. And I
said, the money has always beena worthwhile goal for me. And I
think what we ended up realizingwas this person wasn't married

(08:39):
and didn't have kids.
And when you're on the otherside of that And you're all
you're really thinking about is,like, how can I provide a good
life for my family? And, a lotof that has to do with a, money,
and then b, kind of theflexibility and freedom and
autonomy that can come fromOwning your own business.

Mhmm.

So and does that kind of describe your goal?
Like, if you're thinking thatthe end result for the maximum
effort era, You've said, youknow, I I I see these people
running companies, and that'swhat I want. It's it's all of
these things in a row.

Yeah. I think that I think that does pretty
accurately describe the the endgoal. I'm I'm I think with you
on the On the side of thatconversation, like, the money is
a motivator. Yes. Absolutely.
The money the money is amotivator. Like, kids need
clothes. They need, you know,rooms to live in. Like yeah.
Yeah.
They're gonna share a roombecause they're twins, but,

(09:42):
hello. Like, we need space in ahouse, and houses cost money.
So, yeah, the money is amotivator. I think there's a an
you know, unfortunately, in theUS, health care is a motivator,
which Sucks, and health care isexpensive. And so all of that,
like, all of that wrapped up isis motivation.
There is also So, like, that'sthe very that's the very

(10:03):
practical what is my duty as ahusband and a father and the you
know, in our case, the solebreadwinner of The household,
like, what are my duties? And Itake that extremely seriously. I
think there is also, like, whatare what are my hopes and
dreams, man? Like, what are Whatis my duty to myself, and what
are the things that, like, Iwant to do with my life? And,

(10:27):
Like, those things those thingssuper matter, and there are
things that I am willing tosacrifice to try to make, We'll
say for shorthand, to try tomake my dreams come true, and
there are things I'm not willingto sacrifice.
And I think that's an important,like, That's an important thing
to talk about. Like, what areyou sacrificing, and for what

(10:50):
are you sacrificing? Becausethere's kinda two sides to that
equation.

Yeah. So maybe describe for me what, what are
you willing to sacrifice, andwhat have you kinda outlined as,
like, the no go zone. Like, I Ican't sacrifice this as I'm and
and just to be clear, so rightnow you've got a full time job,
you've got twins at home, And onthe side, you're trying to
bootstrap a brand new softwarecompany, with cofounder, which I

(11:15):
think is is also anothervariable. And, you're still try
you're working maximum effort,meaning I get up maximum effort
on being a dad, maximum efforton being a spouse maximum effort
on working for my employer. Andthen on the side, maximum effort

(11:37):
on business building, which foryou also has meant building my
profile on Twitter, Building up,but, speaking at a bunch of
conferences.
This is maximum effort in aspectrum of things.

In in many directions, but importantly, not
every direction. Yeah. It isOkay. Yeah. It is maximum
effort.

Like So describe the shape For me, what what are
the contours of all that?

Yeah. So for example for example, that that
course that we spoke aboutearlier for planet scale, that
was maximum effort. That wasIncredibly difficult because
I'm, like, putting myself outthere as the MySQL expert at a
company that claims to be thethe industry leading MySQL
company. And so you can imaginethe pressure of being, like, The

(12:26):
public face of a public companyin a world of database experts
that want to find the Placesthat you were wrong. Right?
So you can imagine, like, theamount of effort that goes into
that, the amount of production,you know, that shooting video is
really Production in intenseand, like Mhmm. It came out
great, and I am Mhmm. So proudof it. And that's because I put

(12:49):
in a huge amount of effort.Right?
So I think, yes, maximum effortin all of those directions. And
to the question of, like, whatam I willing to sacrifice? A lot
of other things is is theanswer. I think, Like, we talk
about we being, like, thecommunity. We talk about you
shouldn't sacrifice certainthings, And I think that's

(13:11):
missing half of theconversation.

Like Mhmm.

What are you sacrificing for? So there's the
thing you're sacrificing And thething for which you are
sacrificing. Right? And so Mhmm.To draw, like, to draw an
absurd, You could say, like, Iam willing to sacrifice my own
life for the lives of mychildren.
A 100%. Like, if there's a carcoming, I know which one of us

(13:35):
is gonna get hit. Like, that'san easy thing to say. I'm
willing to sacrifice my life forthis. Yeah.
However, I am not willing tosacrifice my life so that
PlanetScale could make a a salethat they wouldn't otherwise
make. Right? Mhmm. And so thethat equation is out of balance.
Like, I'm willing to sacrificemy life a 100%, but for what?

(13:59):
Not for not so that PlanetScalecan close a deal. Right? Yeah.
So that's the absurd. Right?
So then you have to, like, Kindaback it down to what are the
reasonableness. And so then thequestion becomes like, am I
willing to sacrifice sleep? Am Iwilling to sacrifice sleep to
spend more time on Twitter? I II wanna say no because that's

(14:22):
what I believe. Sometimes thatdoesn't you know, that's not
true objectively.
But, like, I'm not willing tosacrifice sleep to spend more
time arguing with people onHacker News. I am not willing to
do that. I am willing tosacrifice sleep to hopefully
make my dreams come true.

Mhmm.

And, like, that's the kind of trade off that I'm
working with right now is, like,I wake up As early as I can. And
every day, I don't wanna get outof bed. Every day, I'm like, I
would rather sleep in.

Mhmm.

But the the the question is, Are you gonna sleep
in and then not work on youryour side project that you're
hoping is going to become athing at some point, and in some
way is going to fulfill thisdream that you can't quite put
your finger on.

Mhmm.

Or are you gonna are you gonna sleep in? And
that's that's a question I askmyself every single morning.

What time are you waking up?

So these days, I'm waking up at about 6 and
come straight out here to theshed the shed quarters, which is
where I work, and do all mystuff in the morning. And then
at about 7:30 or 45, dependingon, the morning, I text my wife
because I'm out in the shedquarters. I'm, like, 30 or 45,
and she'll text back 30 or 45.And so I come in at 7:30 or 45

(15:36):
and help with, you know, gettingthem out of bed, doing
breakfast, doing all that kindof stuff. And then I'm back out
here at 8 30 between 8:30 and 9.
So I work from home. So I have alot of things going for me.
Right? My my wife is a is a stayat home mom. I work from home,
so I literally Walk across theback deck.
The I I have a lot of otherthing. Like, I have a partner in

(15:57):
my side project. So I have thesethings going for me that I'm
very cognizant of, and none ofthis is prescriptive because no
one else is in my exactsituation. But at 9 o'clock, I
come back out, and it's, like,Time to start working for the
day. And so I work remotely.
That's another thing. Like, myfull time job is remote. I don't
go into the office. Yeah. Andthen I work all day.

(16:19):
And then at night, like, 5:30 or6, depending on, you know, when
the boss tells me it's dinnertime, I go in and I help with
the kids' dinner. And so, Youknow, we do kids' dinner at,
like, an absurd hour. They eatat, like, 5:30, and I'm like,
wow. You guys are so so early.Why are you eating?
But, you know, they're 2. Yeah.And then I help put them to bed,

(16:40):
and then I do the dishes, andthen my wife and I will eat. And
then it's a question of, like,Are we hanging out, me and her,
or is she going somewhere? Am Igoing somewhere?
Or is it back to work?

Mhmm.

And that's when the rest of the the side work
gets done. And then weekendsare, you know, similar,
different, but that that's thebasic structure of a day.

Yeah. I mean, I I think the context, Obviously,
context is everything. So thisquestion, can you bootstrap a
new startup When you have youngkids, the answer is it depends.
Especially in North America,there's this there's this
Continuous thread of ruggedindividualism, Protestant work

(17:21):
ethic. I'm going to, Hustleculture, you know, most notably
Gary Vaynerchuk was kind oflike, stay up till your eyeballs
bleed And did that when he hadyoung kids.
He's now divorced, I think. Youknow, context matters in all of
this. And there's so manyfactors, and I think you've

(17:42):
highlighted some of them. Number1, do you have a job? Number 2,
how demanding is that job?
Number 3, what you know, do youwork remote, or are you
commuting every day? Number 4,where's your partner in all of
this? And that is a massivequestion.

Yeah. That

Yeah. The the the, The the response to the
Twitter thread was there's quitea few people who said they
thought that starting trying tobootstrap a company On top of
having young kids, would only bepossible if your spouse was a
superhero doing 90% of theHousework and childcare. Part of

(18:26):
my thinking in all of this, Ithink sometimes I just wanna be
careful on my own, when I'm whenI'm discussing things. I wanna
be careful to say no. Be shy.
Yeah. It's okay. Well, I know. Iwanna be careful when I'm
communicating to people to say,if I'm gonna give general
advice, the advice would be, itdepends, But you really need to

(18:49):
think through a lot of issuesand some things that are easy to
maybe even rationalize In themeantime, which is I I think my
spouse is on top is in this. Youknow?
I think that and they're asuperhero. They they're
superhuman. They can do thiswith me. Humans are just
actually humans. They're wewe're all actually normal.

(19:10):
None of us are really super. Thedifference Between saying, for
example, hey, honey. I'm gonnareally put maximum effort into
my job right now Because there'sa high chance that if I put
maximum effort into my career,there's a high chance I'm gonna
get promoted. And that couldmean us going from a 100,000 to

(19:31):
a 130,000 or a 130,000 to a180,000, and those jumps are
significant. The the challengewith the business is that you
are risking you're making thisbet That requires an enormous
amount of energy, time, focus.
And in some ways, at least forme, I guess this is where the

(19:53):
individual comes in. You know,if I'm when I'm really good on
Twitter, I'm thinking abouttweets all the time, all the
time. And when I'm when I'mreally good in, and fully on
maximum effort with business,I'm thinking about stuff all the
time. Sure. And that isobviously gonna take my focus

(20:15):
away from other things.
The risk you're doing You'remaking a bet. And with business,
it's just very likely that a lotof those bets aren't gonna pay
off. And that was certainly truefor me. I've had multiple bets
throughout my adult life. We hadkids pretty young, so 22 is when
we had Sadie.

(20:35):
You know, I was making betsthere, and some of those bets
were maximum effort, cost a lot,and didn't pan out. I've got, an
inbox full of people who aresometimes in the same situation.
They're like, I'm risking it allright now. Or I'm risking a big

(20:57):
you know, I'm I'm taking thisbet right now. And sometimes my
advice is, you know, you couldtake those bets, But the
foundation you're building thison matters a lot.
And sometimes it just makessense to wait until the kids are
out of diapers or until the kidsare In school, before you take
that bet Mhmm. And a lot of ithas to do with margin. Like, if

(21:20):
I lose this bet, How much can Iafford to lose? If I lose this
bet, will this, you know, sendour family into a tailspin or me
into a tailspin? So that's, Ithink, part of where I'm coming
from is the to be acounternarrative where, you
know, American dream, American,Protestant work ethic, all that

(21:43):
stuff.

Mhmm.

The the the the balance on that is to say, well,
hold on. You could wait. My wifeand I did this after a first biz
we had a retail business. Couplesnowboard shops didn't work out.
Mhmm.
She said and this is probablyPart of the picture too is
right. What does your spousesay? She said, I would really
appreciate it if you just took abreak from this until the kids

(22:07):
are in school. So we did. Youknow, I just worked on career
for the next however many yearsthat was.
And I felt I felt like that wasa Good decision to just wait and
work on other things in thebackground, you know, do a
little audience building.

Mhmm.

Make some connections, Get some skills.
Anyway, so that's part of whereI'm coming from. What what do
you think about all of that?

Yeah. I think Everything you said is
imminently reasonable. And Ithink that's the interesting
thing about the discussion isthat there are many reasonable
takes, And I think it'sincredibly important. I think as
a as a covering of everyreasonable Take it's incredibly
important that people thinkabout this and figure it out for

(22:52):
themselves. So I think Mhmm.
I think a lot of times,Obviously, it's hard to have
nuance on Twitter. That's notwhat it was invented for. So I
think a lot of times, We'll seethe narrative and the
counternarrative, and then wecome back to me, which is the
counter counter narrative,right, which is basically the
original narrative. Like, yougotta You gotta freaking work

(23:14):
hard. And so Mhmm.
I think I think a lot of things.So let's start with, like, the
people and you yourself who weresaying, like, it it's a bet, And
you're taking these bets, andwhat if they don't pay off?
Right?

Yeah.

I feel pretty exposed on that right now
because Colleen and my ourbusiness Isn't working. Right?
So, like like, we're not makingwe're at the very beginning. I
don't have the benefit to lookback and rewrite some story and
say this is, like, this is whatyou should do because I did I'm,

(23:46):
like, I have no idea. I am Inbetween trapezes, hoping that I
catch the next one, and I'm onthe show right now recording it
in stone, And I have no idea ifI'm gonna catch the next one or
I'm gonna fall.
Right? And so

Yeah.

I feel that intimately. Like, I know that
it's a bet, and I know that itmight not work. What I will say
again is I'll go back to, like,I'll go back to the sacrifice
equation of, like, what am Iwilling to sacrifice And what am
I not willing to sacrifice? Solet's talk about I think there
are stakeholders in this. Right?

(24:21):
Me as an individual, my spouse,and my kids. I am not willing to
sacrifice time with my kids. I'mjust I'm not willing to do it.
We my kids and I can't have aninformed discussion about that.
They are 2 years old.
Right? So I'm not I'm notwilling to say, like, I'm not
willing to say, Hey. I wouldlove to be inside for breakfast

(24:44):
and be inside for dinner, butdad is working on his dream. I'm
I'm sorry. Like, that is areasonable decision to make.
That's one that I'm I have made,and I've made it the other way.
And I've said, I'm gonna beinside for breakfast. I'm gonna
be inside for dinner. Like andthere are things that I would
maybe rather do. I've decidedthis is more important to be

(25:07):
with my kids.
So there's that. Then there'sthe question of, like, what have
like, what about other things,like time with Time with my
spouse. And that's differentbecause she and I can talk about
that and come to an agreement asas a unit and be like, okay.
What are like, what's important?What's not important?
Is it important that we watch 2hours of TV together every

(25:30):
night? Mhmm. No. Turns out it'snot. Like, that's fun.
Turns out that's really not thatimportant. Does she care if I
work instead of watch TV withher? She doesn't, your spouse,
you know, your you, thelistener, your spouse might.
Mine doesn't. Right?

Mhmm.

So that's, like, 2 2 different parties. I think
The the third party is me.Right? So there are things that
I can sacrifice, that Reallykinda only affect me. I mean,
there are externalities, but,like, I can decide to get up
earlier.

Mhmm.

I can decide to get up earlier, And I can decide
that to me, it is more importantthat I try to fulfill whatever
this thing inside of me is Mhmm.Than that I sleep until 7:30 and
then walk out and get the kidsup. Like, there is an amount of
time, and there is a sacrifice Ican make. I can decide I can

(26:26):
decide that I don't watchsports. Like, I don't really
have a huge desire to watchsports, but I also don't spend
my entire Sunday watching NFLfootball because I do not care,
and I think there's somethingmore important.
And I want, like, I want to givesomething up to have the space
to work on this thing that Iwant to come true in my life. I

(26:49):
don't have other hobbies. Peopleare like, what are your hobbies?
Man, my hobbies are work.

Yeah.

And that is a decision that I've that I've
made. I I, like, I don't even Ican't even make up a hobby.
Like, I guess also sports. Like,playing basketball maybe is a
hobby. I don't have that hobby.
My hobby my hobby is trying tomake my dreams come true, and is
it worth it? It's a risk. Yeah.But Yeah. But the equation is

(27:16):
not, I'm going to sacrifice theyouth of my children to Try to
build a business and then havethe business fail.
Mhmm. Like, that is an equationthat is too far for me. I'm too
risk averse to take that, and Ithink personally for me, That
would make me regret my life,and I don't want that. I want to
regret very little if possible.Yeah.
If I look back if I look back in10 years And the business has

(27:39):
failed, and I am sleepier than Iotherwise would be. And I
sacrificed a lot of, like, Youknow, fun nights and weekends,
like, I don't know, go kartingor whatever hobbies are. Like
Mhmm. That's a that's a thingI'm willing to look back on and
say that sacrifice was worth iteven if it didn't play out.

How much are you sacrificing other things like
friendships?

In my estimation, very little. So

Okay.

I do, I do a it's the weirdest schedule. Once
every 3 weeks, I go to breakfastWith a big group of guys, we do
a bible study every Wednesdaynight. We go to church every
Sunday. I see friends Probablyonce or twice a weekend. So I I
see friends quite a bit,actually.

Okay. That's pretty good.

The Yeah. Especially for a 34 year old
with, you know, with kids.That's a lot.

You're right. Like, that the way you split
that up is is was great because,You know, you've got your kids,
your spouse, and then you've gotyou. And the you part is tricky
Because it really depends on howwell you know yourself, how well
you really know yourself, Howwell you can you know, for me,

(28:58):
personally, so much of whatyou're saying is exactly how
I've felt My entire life. Mhmm.Hobbies?
What hobbies? Work is my hobby.You know, people say, well, why
can't you just be satisfied?You've got a good job. Why can't
you just be satisfied with that?
I said, I'm just not content tosit here and do this. Why are

(29:20):
you willing to make this risk?Not just one risk, multiple
risks. Why are you willing tomake these bets? Why are you
willing to invest yourself inthis thing?
And it was because I had thisdream That life could be better,
that life could be different,that we could get somewhere that
would make that couldpotentially make those bets
worthwhile. On the other side ofit, now I've been through it.

(29:44):
And I think, some of my rosinessthat I had when I was younger
has gone away, especially whenit comes to advising other
people and what they should do.Because in retrospect, it's
like, wow. We made it.
So honestly, on this side, it isbetter. It's just better. Yeah.
You know, the the

I believe that.

The The the money's better. The the
schedule's better. The, it's thesense of purpose is better. When
things are going well, this canobviously, all of this is still
subject to change. And, youknow, I have friends who have
also achieved this and they'reFeeling the same way.

(30:26):
This is it's why Tyler Tringussays this is the the new
American dream because, youknow, it it is substantially
When it works, it'ssubstantially better. But as
I've, you know, had I've had ablog and a podcast and a
community for aspiringBootstrappers for a long time.

(30:47):
And giving advice has gotten alot harder, especially if I'm
honest about my experience,which was At the time, I said,
you know, when I was reallyhustling, I felt like, you know,
I don't have any hobbies, andthat's okay. I am willing to
sacrifice this thing. It's oh,it's fine.
And there were some things, someblind spots that I didn't see

(31:11):
that, ended up really affectingme. And I was talking about this
with my wife, and I'm like, youknow, I it's so hard because On
one hand, I'm like, this life isbetter. But on the other hand, I
can now see everything you haveto pass through to get here, Or
at least that I did. I'm sureit's easier for some people. The

(31:33):
question I don't have an answerto is can you accomplish all of
this Without all that risk,without all that pain, without
all that and by risk, I mean,Like, real burnout.
Like Mhmm. Real like, everythingcomes to a head at the same
time, and It's all fallingapart. Mhmm. And you don't know

(31:57):
if you're gonna make it throughkind of period. My wife
sometimes says, you know, Idon't know.
Maybe that's just how life is.To accomplish something like
that, you're there's just gonnabe the risk of pain. There's
this other part of me thoughthat wants to believe that in
the same way that other peoplewho've gone ahead of me have
been able to reduce some of mypain Mhmm. Like, I've had talks

(32:20):
Jason Cohen that havesubstantially removed a lot of
unneeded pain from my life. I Ithink part of my position now is
I'm like, I think there is thepotential for some people to
avoid some unnecessary pain,Some unnecessary risks, some
unnecessary pressure.

(32:42):
And for some folks, that willmean, hey. I'm just gonna I'm
just gonna wait until Mhmm. Forme to to to, you know, ratchet
this up. The right advice at thewrong time is the wrong advice.
Right?
That's the that's the hard thingabout giving advice.

Mhmm.

And so I wonder if we could Well, first of all,
why don't you respond to that?And then, and then we can go
from there. Maybe in identifyingmore more of those factors, more
of those things that might helppeople make a decision one way
or the other in terms ofevaluating their own situation.
But, yeah, any any thoughts onwhat I I just said there?

Yeah. So to To the question of unnecessary
pain, unnecessary risk, ofcourse, I don't have I don't
have any answers, but what Ihear a lot Is I, for for the
purposes of this conversation,you, Justin, you have made it.
I'm gonna say that you've madeit. Whatever that means to
people listening, you've madeit. I hear a lot of people who

(33:44):
have made it say, you all youall can make it, but, like, you
don't don't do it my don't do itthe way that I did it.
And the way that everyone whohas made it, the way that they
did it was they worked reallyfreaking hard. And, like, each
one of you Each one of you madeseparate mistakes, and so Jason
Cohen's like, I made mistake a,b, and c, so don't do that. And

(34:06):
you're like, ah, fantastic. AdamWavin's like, I made mistakes d,
e, and f Because I listened toJason. But everyone made
mistakes.
Everyone made tactical mistakes,relational mistakes, you know,
mistakes of direction, whatever.But what I see everyone having
in common, except maybe DanielVassallo and DHH, they're all

(34:28):
like, I worked incrediblyfreaking hard, and I sacrificed
things to get to where I am. Andthen, you know, There are the 2
outliers who are like, no. Youcan do it in 10 hours a week.
And I'm like, that would beamazing.
I would love to do that, but I Ihaven't been able to crack that
nut. Right? So what everyoneelse says when they get to the
top, when they make it is like,hey. I've made it, and it's

(34:51):
awesome. But it was really hardwork, so don't, like, don't do
it.
And I'm like, How am I supposedto get there then? I am willing
to do the hard work. Like, thatdoesn't scare me. What scares
me, honestly, what scares me Isnot working hard and reaching
the end and thinking, god, Iwish I had worked harder. Yeah.
Like, reaching the end andthinking not, like, Not not I

(35:15):
wish I had given more of myselfto a company. Like, I don't
freaking care about that. What Iwhat I Fear the most is reaching
the end and thinking, I wish Ihad watched less TV. I wish I'd
gotten up a little bit earlier,and I wish I'd tried to make my
dreams come true. Like Mhmm.
That's pretty terrifying. Like,that's pretty terrifying. And so

(35:36):
I have to balance that withReaching the end and thinking, I
wish I'd spent more time with mykids. That's even more
terrifying. Right?

Mhmm.

The the the fear of unfulfilled dreams is not as
great as the fear of notfulfilling my role as a father.
Right? Like

Yeah.

I can't even I can't handle that. I can't
handle that fear. Yeah. But bothof those Fears both of those
fears are pretty strong. Andwhen you look when you when you
put yourself at the end and lookback, you think, Man, I do not
care about watching The Officefor a 57th time.
Mhmm. When I could open mycomputer and try to make this

(36:16):
thing that is inside me like, Icould try to make this thing
happen. Like Mhmm.

I

don't have hobbies, but you know what?
Painters like to paint. Right?What is a painter's hobby? I
don't know.
They probably paint. Like, I'm aI'm a programmer. I like to
build things. I like to makethings. My hobby is making
things, is building things.
Like, You know, the I'm sure thepainter's parents are always
like, why don't you get a realjob? You're just a painter. The
painter's like, I have to paint.

Like Yeah.

I have a job because I have I have duties as
a father and as a husband, butwhy don't I have hobbies?
Because I have to paint. Like, Ihave to do this thing, And I am
hoping that it will work, and Iam going on the record while I'm
midair between 2 trapezes saying

Mhmm.

It is worth it for me right now, and I am very,
very aware that in 5 years or 10years, I may be coming on, You
know, Justin's build your SaaS 2point o and being like, my guy,
it didn't work. Yeah. But I'mwilling to say, like, I have
counted the costs at this point.And so far, I've weighed it, and
I've measured it, and I think Ithink it's worth it.

I mean, this is why it's so individual. Now I
don't really know what's goingon with you. I don't have a an
omnipotent view of how you'redoing psychology, how you're
really doing, how Yourrelationship with your wife and
your kids really is it's it'ssometimes, it you know, none of
us can really have that. But,based on what I know about your

(37:42):
situation And based on what I'mhearing, if I was advising you,
I would probably say you shouldprobably go for it because Mhmm.
You seem to have a lot of theThe margin where you need it.
So if if you have a partner whois like, yeah. Go for it. I
There no hesitation. Like, go gogo. I would say, well, that's a

(38:06):
pretty good sign.
If you have a partner that is,This is what I've seen as I've
talked to a lot of couples whohave you know, where the one
person's building the business,the other is not, is sometimes
there's a slight hesitation Onby on one of the partners or
they don't fully understand whatthis means. I'm building a
business. Okay. What does thatmean practically? And problems

(38:28):
start where there's not a fullunderstanding of what this is
actually going to entail, ofwhat it actually is gonna mean
in terms of sacrifice, what itactually means in terms of, a
bet, and all those things.
But it seems like in yoursituation, that's pretty solid.

I I will say as as an interjection here, I think
my wife is in the secondcategory of, I guess, like,
she's in the category of, like,I don't really know what that
means, but that's great. And thereason that it works is because
of the things I've decided areokay to sacrifice and the things
that are not okay to sacrifice.

Mhmm.

So she's like, I don't really know Like, you're
on your computer when you'reworking, you're on your computer
when you're side working, andyou're on your computer when
you're playing. So, like

Oh my god.

Sure. Do whatever you want. Like, I I don't really
know.

If there if there were spouses listening to
this right now, that is, like,90% of This goes, it just went,
yeah, Frank. What the what's thedeal? Always on the computer.

Here here's the thing. I haven't I haven't asked
her, like, I haven't asked herto make the same level of
sacrifice that I'm making. Ihave asked her to make
sacrifices. Yes. Like, there arenights where I'm like, hey.
I'm gonna go back outside. Isthat okay? And she's like, Sure.
That's fine.

Mhmm.

But I'm not asking her to, like, do
everything in the morning and doeverything at dinner time when I
would otherwise be available.Right? So, like Mhmm. During the
day, I am I am full time w 2.But outside of those hours,
like, I should be available if Iwere not working on side stuff,
and so I am Mhmm.
Because I sacrificed otherthings. So, like, yes, my spouse

(40:11):
is incredibly supportive, andI'm under no illusions that I
could do this if she wereWorking outside of the home, but
it's not like she is team she isteam business. She's just like,
yeah. That's great. You I knowthat you need to Fill this
thing, and, also, you're here tohelp me.
So, like, do whatever you want,man.

And and it's probably fine as long as those
Expectations are somewhatcompatible. I've been running
Mega Maker since 2013. And inthe midst of that, there's been
Every once in a while, just whenyou have that many people go
through, family stuff comes up.And, a recurring trend is that

(40:50):
The one partner thought thateverything was fine, that they
were on the same page with theirspouse, that that everyone
understood the risks and thesacrifice and all of that. And
then but in reality, theydidn't.
It can cause a lot of pain ifthere's not a lot of
communication And a lot ofunderstanding. You can think

(41:10):
somebody understands, but it'sthat Some of the it's often
those little things that canthat can grow bigger if you're
not careful.

-Mhmm.

-And But I I've also seen the opposite. I've
seen 2 people who are like,we're in this family together,
and this is how I see my role,and this is how you see your
role, and we're gonna do this,And we are just solid in in
that. Yep. And, so they're bothcan work. The things to be
careful about if you'relistening It's really getting on

(41:45):
the same page.
I I mean, one thing I would I Ithink is pretty good general
advice is, I would've I wouldhave definitely gone to therapy
for myself personally and withmy partner way earlier in the
process Yeah. And had a 3rdparty who is trained in asking
the right questions to say, sowhy don't you each describe what

(42:09):
you think is gonna happen hereMhmm. And what's gonna be
involved. And let's really justkinda talk it out. You know?

I would echo that. I mean, I've been going to
counseling Individually for, Idon't know, 5 years, something
like that. My wife has beengoing for 15 years, and we've
been going we've almost beenmarried 10 years, And we've
probably gone to counseling foron and off for 5 or 6 years.
Like

Yeah.

It's just it's just helpful. Like, it's just
extremely helpful to be able topay someone to listen to you and
ask questions. Like Yeah. So,yeah, we we do we do that. We do
all of stuff.
We have a name. Like, it'sagain, it's really helpful to
name things so that expectationsare correct. We have a name
called individual pursuitsnight, and it's like, Hey. Are
we gonna do do you wanna doindividual pursuits tonight? And

(42:59):
sometimes she's like, yeah.
I wanna watch gossip girl, and Idon't want you to be laughing at
it because it's ridiculous. Andso it's like, great. You have a
thing you wanna do. I have athing I wanna do. Let's do
individual pursuits tonight.

Oh, I like that.

It's like, no. We're we're not doing individual
pursuits. We're gonna, we'regonna watch a show together, and
then we're gonna have we'regonna talk or we're gonna do
something and, like so it'shelpful to name things again.

IPN versus CPN, Individual pursuits tonight or
couple of pursuit couple ofpursuit tonight.

Yeah. I'll I'll float that acronym and see how
it goes and report back to you.

Yo, baby. IPN tonight? IPN.

An IPN?

I I mean, these things are helpful. This is why
I I think podcasting is such ahelpful medium because The
nuance comes out, and also justlike good ideas come out. Like,
this idea like, individualpursuit tonight. Maybe I'll Use
that. That's

Yeah. It's great.

That's a great, and there are certain this is
the other thing that, I havethis belief and, again, I could
be wrong, but it motivates a lotof my tweets, blog posts,
podcasts thinking. Is I dobelieve that it's possible to
give people a framework thatmakes their life better. That

(44:14):
there are certain practices,There are certain, things you
can put in place, like therapy,like you just said, that just
objectively, For almosteverybody, we'll improve the
quality of their life, we'lleliminate unnecessary suffering,
and, we'll give you a strongerfoundation to build a life. The

(44:36):
that foundation, I think, isimportant in the same way that I
believe the foundation ofbuilding a business Is you have
to have customer demand. Withoutcustomer demand as the
foundation, meaning there is amarket or a category that you're
in where there is Momentum.
People are seeking and buying aproduct like yours or seeking

(45:00):
and buying something that isequivalent to what you're
offering. Without thatfoundation, you can't build a
business. People have to wantwhat you're making. And in the
same way, there is pillars of agood life and pillars of a
strong foundation that Reallymake a lot of this stuff, I

(45:20):
think maybe this is part of yourconfidence is that you've got
some of these pillars in place.So we talked about Communication
with your spouse.
We talked about therapy. Arethere some other pillars that
you can think of? 1 I 1 Is youhave a career that is also
compatible with you buildingskills and audience. Like,

(45:44):
there's some cross pollination,cross Venn diagram. Is there
other things, or do you wannaspeak to that a little bit?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think my role at
PlanetScale is an idealsituation for me Because one, it
is, it's in the sameneighborhood as the, you know,
the product slash products thatI'm building. Right? It's

(46:11):
developer tooling.
It's databases. It fits withinmy My universe of who is Aaron
Francis online. Right?

Mhmm.

So that is not lost on me. I'm I mean, I'm
nothing if not Strategic. Thatwas not lost on me when it was
like, hey. Do you wanna come,you know, create content for
this database company? I'm like,hell, yeah.
I do. Yeah. So that iscompatible. I think it also is
compatible that I don't spendall day writing code.

Mhmm.

Right? So if I were to spend all day writing
code and then Log off and go siton the couch and then log on and
write some more code. I don'tknow how much that would affect
me. I like to think that, like,I could just code forever. I
think that would be a little bitharder.
And so what I do most of theday, like, Daytime work is,

(47:00):
like, researching and writingand making videos about
databases. And so then when itcomes to be night Time work or,
you know, early morning work,it's like, ah, finally, I get to
write some code. And so there'sa little bit of, like, variation
between How I spend my brainjuice all day and how I spend it
at night or in the earlymorning, and that's really,
really helpful. Right?

Yeah. That strategy is Being strategic, I
think, is also an underratedbeing strategic is an underrated
strategy.

Yes. Yes. I think so. I think, like, Effort effort
in every direction uncoordinatedis an entire is entirely
wasteful. Yeah.
Like, we talked about, It's notmaximum effort in every vector.
Like, I can't do that. I don'tthink anyone can. It's maximum
effort in vectors that aregenerally pretty aligned and,

(47:52):
strategically, the things that Ithink will take me to where I
want to be going. Right?
So I'm not gonna put I'm notgonna put maximum effort into
something where when I arrive atthe end, it's like, well, crap.
That's not actually where Iwanted to go. And so it's very
important to think, like,alright. If these things are
true, if my family needs, healthinsurance, If if I need to make

(48:16):
a salary, if I want to make mydreams come true, I wanna spend
time with my spouse and kids,alright, let's write all these
things down. What do I do withall of those?
How can I point as many of thosevectors in the same, like, like,
general direction as possibleinstead of, Like, pointing them
in opposite directions, whichseems really, really hard to do,

(48:38):
and I don't know that I would beable to pull that off?

Yeah. And and another part of strategy Is an
honest assessment of where youactually are at right now.

Mhmm.

Meaning, If you are taking care of a family
member who has health, healthproblems, that is a that is a
real thing in your life thatyou've got to account for.
Meaning, I only have limitedresources here. And If this is a
real part of my life, then I'mgonna have to consider that. If

(49:13):
you are 2 months into, beingparents. And if things are going
great and you're like, this isgreat.
These kids are sleeping. Thesekids are you know, we get this.
We're actually really good atthis where it doesn't stress us
out, then that's a good sign.That's an honest assessment of
where you're at. If you're 2months into parenting and you're

(49:33):
like, this is way harder than Ithought it would be.
The wheels are falling off thebus. This is It's more stressful
than I ever imagined. That's nota great situation to start a
business in. You know? You yougotta be you gotta be armed with
yourself And be like, what'sreally happening right now?

(49:54):
This is why, in strategy, theyalways talk about strengths,
weaknesses, opportunities, andthreats. Well, your strengths
and weaknesses are, like, whatis honestly going on here at
home that we need to considerhere? And if the if there are
some major, you know,situational things in your life

(50:17):
That and and maybe it's justlike we we've got too many
priorities. We can't pay off thewe can't pay off all of our
student loan debt And do the allat the same time. And take care
of mom and, you know, deal withthese health Issues.
And you've gotta you've gottahave an honest assessment all of

(50:38):
all that. So strategically, youcan go, okay. Now let's think
about how we're gonna, You know,do this.

Yeah. I think what what no. I think what
you're talking about there isit's the sacrifice equation
running the other direction. So,like, if you're taking care of a
sick If you're taking care of asick spouse or a parent or your
aging parents or whatever, youhave to decide, like, okay. I'm
gonna sacrifice working on mybusiness because I'm gonna take
care of my aging parents or mysick spouse or whatever.

(51:08):
And, again, you just have tocount. Like, You have you have
to count the cost. Like, it ismore important to me to take
care of my aging parents earlyin the morning and late at night
than it is work on my businessearly in the morning at late or
late at night. Right? So I thinkwith everything, like, with
everything that You're you'redoing so, like, we're both

(51:29):
saying the same thing from adifferent direction.
Like, you have to count thecost, and I think What I'm
saying, the counter counternarrative, is there are some
things that you should sacrificefor almost any reason, and that
can be watching 2 or 3 hours ofTV at night. And Mhmm. Listen.

(51:49):
If if the alternative like, Thatis if there is something on the
other side of the equation forwhich you want to sacrifice.
Right?
So if you're looking at, like,If you're looking at your your
time and you're saying, I I have3 hours every night where I
don't really do anything, Butthere's this dream that I want,

(52:10):
and it's like, okay. That's easyto me. That is a no brainer to
me, and I see I think I seeLike, I see too many people
saying that, like, they can't,like, they can't change their
life because, Like, they don'twanna grind. And I'm like Mhmm.
I am gonna change my lifewhatever it takes.

(52:33):
Like, no matter what it takes.But the equation the the
equation is flipped if it'slike, I'm burned out, and I'm,
like, I'm hanging on to the endof a knotted rope, And it's
like, I'm about to fall offunless, like, unless I hang on
with everything I have, in whichcase I would say, like, okay. If
TV, whatever it is, if, youknow, taking long walks at

(52:55):
night, if that is more valuable,like, You have to decide you're
gonna do that instead of workingon your business. You're gonna
sacrifice working on yourbusiness Because you're barely
making it, and that is a, like,that is a valid that those are
valid numbers to run. And so Ithink what we're both saying is,

(53:15):
like, You gotta you gottaintrospect and decide what are
the numbers for you.
For me, I I have told you 10times what the numbers are. I
don't know what they are foranybody else. And importantly,
the numbers are gonna change forme at some point. They're
they're like, I'm in I'm in thisera right now. This error is not
gonna last forever.

(53:36):
I'm gonna run out of energy. Thekids are gonna get older. We're
gonna have more kids. Somethingthing will change, and I will
have to sit down and redo themath, but many people aren't
doing the math. They're justlike, man, I wish my life would
change.
Well, That's too bad. I'm like,no. Yeah. This is it. This is
all you got, man.

There is another perspective on that, which is To
clearly outline what you want,and then to ask yourself, what
is the best way to get there?And, I have had people back when
I was doing more coaching, theywould show up and I would say,
what do you want? And they wouldsay, I wanna become an

(54:15):
individual influencer like you,Justin. I wanna have an
audience. I wanna build aproduct and launch it.
And, You know, I wanna buildthis up. And I would say, okay.
Let's get started then. And andbut I said, but that's not an
actual reason. What's the actualreason why?
What are you Well, right now I'mmaking $80,000 a year, and my
family could really use a 130.Okay. Once we actually got into

(54:39):
it, it just became clear thatfor this person, the the best
path to getting to that dreamIt's just to find a better job.
Mhmm. It's something thatdoesn't get, I think, mentioned
enough, which is if if you're ina shitty job, If you're not
making enough money and youdon't have an audience and you
don't you haven't, like, startedany of this, It is likely that

(55:04):
the best use of your time andenergy and focus is just getting
a promotion or finding a betterjob.
Those things may give younothing's ever going to give you
a 100% of what you want. Youmight get 60, 70, 80. Maybe if
you're lucky, you get 90% ofwhat you want. So sure. You go

(55:24):
to a job.
You have one of the downsides togetting a job is you have to ask
permission to go on vacation,which I always hated.

Mhmm.

But It may be in the math, that personal math. It
may be better decision for alistener to be thinking, you
know what? Actually, if this iswhat I want, I'm I'm actually
avoiding something I'm scaredof, which is going out and
finding another job. And I'mreplacing it with something that

(55:52):
is actually way scarier, wayharder, has a lower chance of
success. I'm gonna try to dothat instead.
And this is why the stair stepapproach is such a nice idea of,
like, you can stair step yourway up to a nice remote job like
Aaron has. And then, that'scompatible with some of your

(56:14):
long term dreams. I mean, that'sa best. Those are the best
employers. Hey, Aaron.
What is your long term dream?Oh, I wanna do this, this, this.
Okay. Well, we're compatiblehere on a long term basis. But I
don't want people to think thatthat's not an option.
My guess is that for most folks,it is better for them to find a
better job than to try to starta company. Just because I've

(56:37):
I've known tons of people whoare amazing in all sorts of
ways, have tons of skills, tonsof it, And they don't make it.
Making it in business is it'sjust it there's no sure thing.
And so if you're playing ifyou're doing that math, I would
consider saying, well, the firststep if I'm in a shitty job is

(56:57):
just to find a better job thatgives me more freedom, more
autonomy, more money, etcetera.

Yeah. If we were, like I I am I think the reason
I'm in this situation partiallyis because I'm extremely risk
averse. Right? Like, I'm notgonna quit my job. I'm not
gonna, like, I'm not gonna justbe like, hey, family.
I'm going to do my own thing.Like, I hope that I have enough
money next month so that youkids can go to school. Like, I

(57:27):
think there is definitely a wayto, Like, to work your way up to
a position where you can thenstart to sacrifice other things,
but there, again, there arenonnegotiables. Like, I'm I
Would love to be able to work ona business full time, but that's
just not that's just not in thecards for me. Listen.
If we were going negative everymonth, like, if if PlanetScale

(57:49):
wasn't enough for us to live,the the talk of, like, a a side
business would probably not beon the table for me. It would
be, Erin, you gotta cut yourexpenses or you gotta get a
better job because this is notworking.

Mhmm.

And so, yeah, I definitely don't wanna paint the
picture of, like, I'm, you know,sacrificing everything, and I'm
this like, I'm throwing thewhole team on my back. Like, no.
We've got like, we we're notgoing negative every month, and
the things that I'm sacrificingdon't really count to anybody
except me. And so that's wherethat's where I'm like, Yeah. If

(58:24):
your job sucks and you're goingnegative every month and or
you're going in physically tosomewhere that is just, like,
beating you down, Get out ofthere.
Like, that is absolutely thebest first step.

Yeah. This is the the challenge is so many
people do get into startingtheir own business because They
things are really not goingwell. And they're like, I got I
gotta fix this. And sometimesthat can work out. But I the way
I've I've said it before is it'sgood to be hungry.
It's not good to be desperate.In the the hungry desperation

(58:56):
scale, desperation is not a goodtime to be building anything,
because you're gonna be in thisvicious cycle. And, it's
actually great having you on thecall today because it's just
clear, you seem calm. You seemlike you're hungry. But there is

(59:16):
a a foundation of calm that if Iwas gonna review a lot of these
cases I'm thinking about From myinbox and from, you know, people
I've coached and things, thetimes where it didn't work out
was they were they were in thatdesperation mode.
They were Too close to themetal. They were grinding gears,
and, when you're in that kind ofspiral, Nothing is going well.

(59:41):
All you're doing is putting outfires. You're putting out fires
with your spouse. You're puttingout fires with the day job.
You put so you gotta simplify asmuch as you can. And if you're
in a situation like that,probably the best way for you to
improve your life is to try toget a better job. Nice thing
about getting a better job Is alot of the principles, that
apply to business also apply tothat. You're trying to give

(01:00:03):
people something they want.You're trying to solve the boss'
problems.
You're trying to, make yourselfthe most attractive candidate.
Mhmm. And these are all thingsthat apply in business. Business
is about when you have aproduct, you're trying to make
your product the most attractivecandidate for anybody who's
looking for a product like that,And you can take some of those

(01:00:24):
principles away with you. We'vegot an hour.
Is there anything else you'dlike to say?

Aaron Francis (01:00:30):
Thank thanks for thanks for letting me come on
and and take the other side. Ifeel like this was really
valuable. Hopefully hopefullyfor other people as well. I
think I would synthesize thewhole thing as, like you know,
I've told Colleen this, my mybusiness partner, a number of
times. Like, the only thing yougotta figure out is what do you
want.
And, unfortunately, that's thehardest thing in the world to

(01:00:51):
figure out. Like Mhmm. What whatdo you want? And I think for me
in the past couple of years, Ithink I've started to figure out
what I want, and I am not likewe just talked about, I'm not
extremely comfortable with risk.I'm calm, but, boy, am I Hungry,

(01:01:11):
not because we're running out ofmoney, but because there's some
kinda, like, thing inside of methat has to prove to, like, my
childhood self and the way thatI came up and part of me, like,
I am going to make it.
And, like, That, like, coupledwith I have a job, and my I can
provide for my family, so Farseems like infinite energy, and

(01:01:35):
I know that it will run out atsome point. Mhmm. But I am not
willing I'm not willing to towatch To watch these dreams die
because I'm too sleepy or I'mwatching TV at night or
something. And so, like

Justin Jackson (01:01:47):
Yeah.

You gotta run the sacrifice equation on your own
side and figure out What are youwilling to sacrifice and for
what are you sacrificing andfigure out, like, I don't know,
man. Which one's stronger? Andthen you just run it from there.
Don't don't be afraid to commit.Do not be afraid to commit to
it.

Yes. Yeah. I I mean, we could keep going. I'm
sure. But I'm cheering for you.
I I -Thanks. -That that hungeryou have, and that idea of like,
I got this dream, and I justGotta go after it is so I
identify with that so much. Andthen having that line of I have

(01:02:24):
this dream, But I'm not willingto cross this line is also
important. And, we heard I heardthat from you too. So Thanks so
much, man.
This was great. I'm I'm surefolks will have lots of feedback
on this. What what's a good wayfor people to reach out to you
or Say, hey. I'm listening rightnow.

Yeah. I'm on Twitter basically all the time
even when I shouldn't be at,Aaron d Francis, Aaron with 2
a's, Aaron d Francis. The coursethat we talked about is at
planetscale.com/courses. Andthen the product that my partner
and I are working on is, we arein the middle of a of a pivot
because we haven't found productmarket fit. So that's at hello

(01:03:04):
query dotcom, and we're buildinga flexible way for nontechnical
users to get access to theirdatabase.
So

Hello, Query.

Hello, Query. This is as of, like, yesterday,
Your day, totally unannounced,so breaking news here first. So

I I say query. What did you say? Query. Query.

Query.

I say query.

Interesting.

We'll have to

talk about this offline. That's the first time
I've heard that one. Yeah. Sohello query.com, I guess, if
you're from Canada.

Don't take mine as Canadian pronunciation.
That's a a recurring bit on theshow as I pronounce things
weird. Would also love Here, ifyou're listening, I would love
to hear from spouses. And if youare a spouse of someone bringing
building a business, Yeah. It'dbe great to have you reach out.
You can email me,justin@transistor.afam. I'm on

(01:03:55):
Twitter, the letter m, theletter I. Justin, We have a live
chat on Transistor. You can evenput comments in there, but, I'm
hoping this will be thebeginning of, an expanded,
nuanced discussion about how todo all of this, while you're
being a parent and trying to,live a good life, Family. So

(01:04:18):
thanks again, everybody.
And, yeah, hope to hear from yousoon.

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