Startup coaching: helping founders and team members realize their full potential

Episode Transcript
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Jon Buda (00:12):
Hey, everyone. Welcome to build your SaaS. This is the
behind the scenes story ofbuilding a web in 2023. I'm Jon
Buda, a software engineer.

Justin Jackson (00:21):
And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and
marketing. And today we have aguest.

Marcella Chamorro (00:26):
Marcela Chamorro. Here you go.

Nice. Marcela, you and I have known each other
from the internet for a while.And, and John also knows you as
well. And, you used to be instartup marketing. Actually, I'm
trying to think of how I firstbecause you have a podcast
you've had a few podcasts onTransistor.

Yes. How

did we originally connect? Is that

I have no idea.

You can't remember.

This is a common question I get. Like,
I've known you on the interwebsfor so long. Where did how far
back?

Yeah. Where did it happen?

When you had marketing, for developers Mhmm.

Jon Buda (01:04):
Was that

what it was called? I was already, like,
reading all of your blogs andstuff like that. You pre this is
a website Oh, wow. Like, allthat stuff. Oh, cool.
I go way back

Jon Buda (01:15):
Yeah.

With your content, but I don't recall when
I first, got introduced to yourcontent. And then, yes, I
Started podcasting, was bloggingfor a long time, always around,
like, personal growth anddevelopment. And from an
operational standpoint, it wasalways in marketing. But,
personal growth was always mything. My podcasts were hosted

(01:38):
on Transistor

Jon Buda (01:39):
Mhmm.

And about Writing the ups and downs of the
entrepreneurial and creativejourney. And then through that
podcast, I interview you on thatpodcast.

Yes.

Had Some other big names like James
Clear, which everybody's like,how'd you get James Clear on
your podcast?

How did you get

James Clear? Idea, but I bugged him in his
inbox until he said yes. And atsome point, he was like, you are
so persistent that okay. And Iwas like, great. Let's do this.
I will say, though, that thatwas most likely the most
difficult interview I didbecause He's so media trained,
or at least it seemed to me.Yeah. It was hard to get, like,

(02:16):
real. With you, I could get,like, real.

Yeah. Yeah. I've hung out with him in in person.
He's like that in person aswell. He's he's very put
together.
Yeah.

So maybe it's not media training. Maybe it's
just this just just who he is.Yeah. And it was it was great
podcasting. I met a lot of verycool people through the podcast,
And one of them eventuallyoffered me a full time role
just, through being friends onthe interwebs just like me and
you.
AD Pinar and I worked at COGSIEin marketing for for about a

(02:49):
year. I was the 1st marketinghire there, head of marketing.
It was a great time, But alwaysthe the mental health and
personal development side of me,which just kept growing and
growing, And I ended upmigrating over to becoming a
mindset coach, which is what Ido now.

Yeah. So maybe let's Start there. Let's
describe that transition. Soyou're you're doing this this
coaching. How would you,describe the work you're doing
To other people, how do you howdo you define it?

I want to be working with founders and What I
would describe as, like, risingstars within teams. Because when
I was at COGSI and otherstartups, like, identified
these, They were not founders.They were not heads of
functions, but they were keyteam members who were just
hungry and needing wantingchallenges, but also needing

(03:41):
support. Like, nobody wants toswim in the deep end without
knowing how to swim. Like, youknow what I mean?
Like, you really want to grow,but you need adequate support.
And so that's the kind of personthat I'm really excited about
working with. And what I do withthat kind of, profile is mindset
work. So there's a lot oflimiting beliefs that are behind

(04:03):
a lot of the challenges that weface, not just at work, But, in
our personal lives and so I'vebeen trained in NLP, which is
neurolinguistic programming andinter family systems, kind of a
dig, Which is really fun for me.Like, I used to hate being in
meetings.
Like, when I'd see my calendarfull of meetings coming from

(04:23):
COGSY, which is mostly ordefault async. Yeah. We never
had meetings. And now mycalendar is packed, and I love
it. Like, because they'retransformative conversations.
Do you know what I mean? Like,every session that I have, I end
the call and I just feel moreenergy than I did at the
beginning.

That's great.

So, yeah, it's it's it's a lot of fun for
me. I think it's something thatI have been doing without
knowing that I was doing it foryears, Just informally.

So Did you have some experiences, like, during
your work when you were, youknow, interacting with founders
and then Observing these risingstars, like, were there some
insights that you were gatheringas you're working that you're
like, you know what? There'ssomething here that Oh, for
sure. Could you support? Whatare what are some of those big
issues? Let's start with well,why don't we start with the

(05:14):
rising stars?
What are some of the the bigissues you saw there that you're
like, I think I could help withthat piece.

Yeah. I think with my own team, and I always
say, like, once my team, alwaysmy team. I have stay in close
contact Everybody I've I've everworked with because what I
really try to do with my teamsis to find a win win. Like, how
can Where do you want yourcareer to go and and your life
to go? And then how can we findthat intersection with whatever

(05:41):
organization we're working with?
Because if there's no win win,one one side is winning more
than the other. Do you know whatI mean? And and that's not how
you Feel your best and do yourbest work, you know. So I work
with my own team members to findthat intersection. And The
feedback that I got was, like,exuberantly positive.

(06:02):
Like, they were so happy to workwith me and so happy that I was
Interested in their own theirdevelopment side by side, like,
with the organization's meetingits goals. And I don't I mean,
that can sometimes be difficultto find that win win, but it's
not impossible. And it's mostlikely easier than most people

(06:22):
think. And and I think thatdrives a lot of motivation Yeah.
For those rising stars who arehungry.
And also just providing, like,mentorship and that support. A
lot of times people just wannabe heard. Yeah. And even better
if you're being heard bysomebody who's been there, who's
walked the path, Right? That youwant to eventually work on.

Yeah.

It's like, for example, one of the things
that I I did with everybody thatI worked with is, Like, find me
a job description of your idealfuture role. Like, whether
that's if Your content manageris that head of content or
whatever. Let's find me 3, andthen, like, let's put together
your ideal one. And then findingpeople who are in those roles,

(07:06):
and let's analyze theirLinkedIns. Like, what was their
trajectory?
What did they work how did theywork toward that?

Jon Buda (07:12):
Mhmm.

And then how do we get you there? And so, I
was doing that just as part ofbeing a manager, but at the same
time, like, that really leads todeep connections with your team
because they know that you'relooking out for them.

Yeah. You

know? So there's that. And then I think
just the the I think this is acommon belief that everything
comes from the top. Mhmm. Youknow?
And I think that working in insmall teams, like in early stage
teams, You really do get a sensefor how everything does come
from leadership, you know, thegood, the bad, the ugly. And I

(07:50):
was lucky enough in this rolethat I've mentioned to have a
very to experience a lovely workculture, like, Something so
positive where maybe in pastroles, I've experienced what not
to do. And in this role, Iexperienced a lot of what to do.
What is can really breed a andcultivate a tight knit work

(08:11):
culture where people areempowered to bring their true
selves to work, to work in acalm cadence and to be kind to
each other without ignoring,Like, the organization's goals.
So what I realized in with thatis that it is such a blessing to

(08:34):
have that experience.
Not just, like, for my worklife, but for everybody. In this
this team, we were, like, 19people. That's a blessing for
those 19 humans And theirfamilies and their friends and
everybody who's experiencingsomeone who's showing up in the
world, being able to do theirbest work, but also feel their
best. Like, that ripple effect

Jon Buda (08:54):
Mhmm.

Was very profound Yeah. For me. And so I
just wanted to do more of that.How do we transform more
cultures and more leaders inorder to have that ripple
effect. So I I get a lot ofenergy from getting to that root
cause, which is usually at thetop if there are challenges, And
then trying to spread thatpositive vibe out to The rest of

(09:19):
the team.
Yeah. I think a lot of foundersdo receive a lot of support.
Like, you hear founder coaches,founder coaches, like, you hear
that a lot. What about everybodyelse? Like, what about my rising
stars, and what about the peoplewho wanna be rising stars?
And they don't get that muchsupport. So I feel, really
strongly about that.

Jon Buda (09:37):
You you mentioned you're working with teams or you
were working with teams. Are youare you, like, diffusing
situations between employees,Is, or are there tensions you're
navigating or is it more on onan individual level that you're
working with?

I think it's more on individual level. I will
work with there's alwaystensions. I mean, humans, like,
that I think that's why humanresources Exists like humans
will be humans. We're we're allvery so very different. And a
lot of the times, there's a bigShift that happens between

(10:11):
receiving feedback, let's say,for one example, and taking it
personally Mhmm.
Versus reframing it as guidanceand thinking, like, I'm gonna
keep that idea in my backpocket. Like, when you show up
at work One way or the other,the outcome is so very different
for the rest of your team. Youknow? So, yes, a lot of

(10:32):
diffusing tension, But once youdiffuse attention one time, I
think you're you're building themuscle to then, in the future,
encounter situations that may besimilar where you are able to
show up in a more positive way.

Yeah. I there's a lot to dig into you there. And
it it's interesting because Ithink for John and I, we've
we've we've each experiencedwhat it's like to be on a team
and to be, you know, working asan employee And, like, often
really showing up, in a Maybe ina rising star kinda way of,

(11:08):
like, oh, yeah.

I got it. Mhmm.

I wanna do this. I wanna bring this. And then,
sometimes feeling the resistancefrom the rest of the team or
from the, the leadership orwhatever. I remember I was on
this one team. I've been innonprofits forever and, like,
nonprofit people work crazyhard.
And I started working at thesoftware company. And my

(11:32):
colleague pulled me over there.And I thought I was just, like,
Not working enough. You know,I'm in the deep end. This is my
first software job.
And my colleague pulled me asideone day. He's like, Dude, you've
got to stop working so hard. Youare making us look bad. Like,
you're just doing too much. Justslow it down.
John and I talked about this alot in the early stages of

(11:54):
Transistor of, like, you know, alot of what we've brought to
Transistor for ourselves and forour employees Relates to
struggles we've we had.Frustrations we had. On the flip
side, now that We're owners. AndI I've actually I've had a bunch
of conversations with other I'vegot quite a few founder friends.

(12:16):
And It seems like there's this,you know, the first part is
really hard building a company.
You know, you're building it.It's a struggle, struggle,
struggle. Lots of mental healthstruggles in that time because
everything is there's so littlemargin. You don't know if it
you're gonna make it. You'reworking evenings and weekends.
You've got no money. And thenwhen you make it, there's this

(12:36):
kind of beautiful honeymoonwhere you've you've made it and
it's like, okay, we've got Nowwe've got the resources and now
we can start to live the life wewant. And invariably, all my,
all my friends that have startedcompanies eventually Get to this
point where they get morefrazzled. It's not as fun
anymore. And it's just becausethere's just Once you hit a

(12:59):
certain size, there's, like, allthe stuff you gotta care about.
Tax compliance, income tax,regulations, insurance,
Negotiations, legal issues, youknow, team issues. And there's
just all of these gaugesdemanding our attention. John
and I had a call yesterday.We're talking about this. Like,
man, like, we've just beenfeeling more frazzled lately.

(13:22):
It's like It's like everythingin our inbox is just this other
either a gauge we have to watchor an, this, like, process that
has to now be running in ourbrain.

Jon Buda (13:35):
Yeah. Someone asking something of us and

Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Buda (13:39):
I think the bigger we got and we're not big by any
means, but it's just there'smore and more there are more and
more, like, tasks and things todo that They're just kinda
running in your brain that are

They're not writing code and marketing.

Yeah. And it and it and it's not like and there's
the Again, the other common,thing I hear from my friends who
are founders are, like, youknow, there's this the work That
they wanna do, like, the workthat they find fun. They wanted
to build this company so thatthey could create a job that was
fun for them. But often, theother stuff can crowd in and

(14:16):
and, sometimes even, like, makeyou forget. I had one friend who
has this amazingly, like,successful company, and He was
thinking about quitting becausehe he was just like, I don't
wanna do this anymore.
It's not fun. It's like not onlyis it not fun, it's like I,

(14:37):
Don't wanna go to work anymore.You know? Like, I don't wanna
show up. Do you have anyinsights on any of that?
How can on the founder side,What are some things and I think
one thing that is hard forfounders is, I mean, maybe John
and I haven't got enoughcoaching. But One thing that is
hard on on founders is that,often the owner, like, the big

(15:01):
boss doesn't get any empathy.It's like, well, you got the
company. You guys are doingwell. You know?
Why are you complaining? And sowe often end up talking to each
other Going, man, this is likeall this pressure and
responsibility and stuff is alot. How can founders deal with
all that? Do you do you have anyinsights on it?

Jon Buda (15:21):
No. And yeah. And we don't we obviously don't want
that, like, Negativity, if youwanna call it that, to, like,
trickle down to the team. Mhmm.It's where the team's like, oh,
man.
John and Justin are fallingapart. And we're I mean, we're
not, but, you know, don't wannaget it to that point.

Yeah.

Yeah. You you do have to Create some sort of
buffer. Right? And and I thinkthat's something well, first, I
just wanted to say I do hearthat a lot. Like, I recently
spoke to a founder who said tome, like, But what about me?
Mhmm. Nobody supports me. Yeah.And I I get that. And like I
said, a lot of Times people justwant to feel heard.

(15:59):
Mhmm. But what I will say aboutBeing that buffer and creating a
buffer between you and the teamor you and each it's you don't
want to Pass along stress

Jon Buda (16:13):
Mhmm.

To other people. And I think in we talk a
lot about hard skills and softskills and stuff like that, but
nobody talks about, like, thisThe ability to self regulate

Jon Buda (16:23):
Mhmm.

And to be able to chill the f out Mhmm.
Before you answer the Slackmessage.

Jon Buda (16:28):
Mhmm.

You know? And I think that coming from a place
like, my previous role, Ibecause I feel like I've
mentioned the word COGZY, like,500 times in this Chat already,
but, like, in my previous role,that stuff didn't happen. But
then but now that I'm exposed tomore people, and I did have a
short stint at another companybefore deciding to become a

(16:50):
coach. I realized that it is alot more common than I thought
that People are exposed to verytoxic, behaviors at work. And so
I was kind of in a bubble.
And it sounds to me, like, foreverything that I know of you 2,
that transistor is also kind ofthis people first very calm

(17:11):
bubble, but I forgot thatoutside the bubble, there's so
many other people that are beingimpacted Mhmm. By these, Bad
work habits or communicationhabits. And and I think that the
ability to self regulate issomething that can really trans
Form a team.

Jon Buda (17:31):
Mhmm.

Because you are able to, 1, stop passing on
your stress to other peoplewith, like, snarky messages or
pressure that is maybe uncalledfor Mhmm. By just injecting a
little bit of Calm and andkindness and giving yourself
some space to breathe before.

Yeah.

But, also, you are able to kind of think
through How productive is thismessage or is this task that I'm
assigning or whatever it is thatyou're doing? How productive is
it to our north star or our, Youknow, MRR goals or whatever that
number or that whatever it isthat you're working toward,

(18:10):
like, what I'm doing, is itmoving the needle or not? And if
it's not, then I need to put itin somewhere else.

There's a there's a few thoughts I just
had there. I mean, one, I thatthat what I've experienced in
the past is that low marginbusinesses tend to have more of
that kinda toxic behavior wherethe the owner is stressed
because they can't pay theirbills, and they've got a million

(18:38):
things, and they're Downloadingthat stress

All comes from the top.

Onto the onto the employees. And, you know,
I've definitely been there. Thatthat is, often my advice to
people when now that when peoplecome to me, I'm If you can, you
gotta get out of that situationbecause, like, that kinda
downloading of stress and thoselow margin businesses rarely,

(19:05):
become healthier. It's like itthe they're they're they're
kinda set, and there's a reasonthey're having troubles, and
there's a reason the boss isalways stressed, and there's a
reason they're taking it out onyou. The I think the the just
thinking about even John and I,That that one thing I can

(19:26):
definitely see is, like, we hada series of where we we we
decided to dive into sales taxcompliance.
And so John and I are like,okay. We're gonna do this, and
we're, like, working on it. Andthen other stuff always comes
up. It was like, oh, we gottapay Ohio state tax, and now we
gotta We have this issue overhere with our regular

(19:47):
accounting, and then, this cameup. And things keep coming up.
And when we had this list ofkinda like I don't know what we
could call these, but, like,stuff that tasks that drag us
down, that reduce our margin,our buffer in our own lives. I
definitely got more snarky, and,no. Not star key. More like

(20:11):
negative Spicy. With the peoplearound me.
So and mostly, like, people atmy coworking office and my
family just like, like, I justhad a shit day where all I did
was look into sales taxcompliance and talk to a
1000000000 different peopleabout it and pay, expensive
accounting people. And, Like, itwas just Yeah.

Jon Buda (20:32):
And and there's and then you have no answer still.

And we and

Jon Buda (20:36):
And you end of the day, and there's, like, no
resolution.

That's the most frustrating is that Yeah. Is
that, you know, John and I areat our best when I think on two
lines, we had this vision of,like, we're gonna build an
amazing product an experiencefor customers, and we were just
totally aligned on that. And onthe same side, even when we had
no money, we're like, And we'regonna build a better life for

(21:01):
us. Like, that's the goal.

Oh, 100%.

And Yeah. Whenever Either of those gauges
for us personally as foundersgoes down, like, whenever it's
like we're not able to do thework that really fires us up,
like we're just doing too muchof this draining work, that that
we we definitely aren't doing aswell. When and this has actually

(21:26):
been a a bigger struggle, Ithink, especially now that we
have more people on the teambecause everybody has their own
motivations. And in some way,John and I's motivation is,
like, we just wanna keep thisbusiness really simple and
giving us a really great lifeand Giving me the ability to go

(21:46):
snowboarding when I want. And ifJohn wants to go for a 2 hour
run-in the middle of the day, hecan't like, we like, We built
this lifestyle that was reallygreat.
And now, you know, we've got, 3other people on the team, and
they've got their Ownmotivations. You know? They've
got their own things thatthey're trying to do in their
lives. And I sometimes, it'slike a struggle to figure out,

(22:10):
like, how are we gonna balanceall of this? Like and there's
the other dynamic of, like, Johnand I still have to maintain a
good relationship too.
So there's all of these levels,and, honestly, sometimes it's
just overwhelming. Sometimes Ijust feel like

Jon Buda (22:25):
Yeah.

I don't know how we're gonna do how we're gonna
how we're gonna get back to thisbeing simple and,

Jon Buda (22:31):
Luckily, Justin and I don't really get into fights or
arguments.

I can't see anybody arguing with

Jon Buda (22:37):
you 2.

We've had a we have a few, but we've mostly
been able to resolve that. Yeah.We were talking about this
yesterday too. But, Like, duringthe pandemic, we didn't do a
retreat for 2 years. We reallynoticed that, like, Where our
relationship isn't as strongwhen we don't do at least one

(22:58):
time where we both get away.
And this year, it just kindalike Our typical time just kinda
got away from us. Yeah. There'sall these things. And it's just,
like, sometimes it can justmanaging all these levels. And
then there's also just the theaspect of so those are the
levels for work.
And then whatever we've gotgoing on at home or in our

(23:19):
personal lives, It we're alsobringing that to work, but, you
know, not not, usually notsharing too much. Right?

With a mask on, but it's behind the mask.
You know what I mean? Like, youyou do show up as your work self
at work, but the other stuff isyou're still carrying it. And I
think a lot of All thesechallenges that you face, that
everybody faces is it's allabout rebounding from them
because, like, we're alwaysgonna be facing small
challenges. Like, right now, itmight be I I don't wanna deal

(23:49):
with the sales tax admin stuff.
Like, I wanna be doing productmarketing. So how how do I
reframe this, if I have to doit, or do I have to? Like, what
is my obstacle? What are myoptions? And I think that's why
It's really healthy to to havesomebody else to talk through
these things with.
Because I, for example, don'thave a cofounder to talk to. So

(24:12):
I pay a coach, to that I cantalk to. I for like, if I
believe in coaching, I'm payingfor a coach. So I have my own
coach that I'm able to talk toIt helps me untangle my own
challenges and reframe them andfind solutions that I didn't
know were there because It'sit's impossible to see your own

(24:33):
strengths and weaknesses in2020. Like, you can't see your
own blind spots, but somebodyelse can see them sometimes very
easily.
And maybe you guys can do thatfor each other, but that's also
a very sensitive relationshipwhere you don't wanna be calling
somebody out all the time. It'ssometime it's very nice to have
an objective and nonpartialthird party who can say, hey,

(24:56):
Justin. Like, There are someoptions here if you wanna feel
better about this sales taxsituation that you've got going
on. How can we reframe this, orfind another solution, like,
maybe outsource it. I don'tknow.
Yeah. But, no.

I think I think that's like, I think coaching
would be something we would beWe would be open to, because it
it does help having a cofounder.Like, there's thing it's nice to
And actually the reminder I needto have sometimes is I because
we're in different cities,sometimes it is just easy for me

(25:32):
to struggle on my own. Andyesterday, I had this feeling
of, like, I can just ask John ifhe can do a phone call. And then
I was able to call and Expresssome feelings. And, and, you
know, that was a really healthything and, probably we probably
don't take advantage of thatenough.

Jon Buda (25:53):
But, again, I'm I'm also not, to Marcel's point, I'm
not impartial.

Yes. And and that's yeah. I think the
impartial part would be thatthat part is super valuable.
Yeah. Having somebody else

I think also, You mentioned bringing it, like,
bringing your personal life andand everything that's going on
in all other aspects of yourlife To work, right, is because
when I truly believe that whenyou feel your best, you do your
best work. Period. Like, it'svery difficult to do your best
work when you're feelingunderwater, When you're feeling
stressed, pressured, etcetera.And so when you have somebody

(26:30):
external to talk to, you cantalk about that stuff. You don't
necessarily have to talk aboutwork.
A lot of the the people that Ispeak to my coaching partners,
what what I notice is that whenwork is going well, We talk
about other aspects of theirlife. Mhmm. Yeah. That those are
also very valid topics. Like,work is not everything.

(26:51):
It's it's not nearly everything.So if somebody wants to talk to
me about, creating healthyhabits or improving their
interpersonal relationships,whatever it is. Sometimes I
speak to people about havingpatience while they wait for
something that they really wantin their life. There's been a
lot of layoffs. Or it could be aromantic partner.

(27:11):
Whatever it is that they'rewaiting for. Patience is a big
theme in my sessions for somereason. People are bringing that
to me, and what I notice is thatthat's what happens when work is
going really well. When work isnot going well, work is the
number one thing they wanna talkabout, because when you're
sitting at a desk from, youknow, 8 to 5, 9 to 5, whatever

(27:33):
it is, And you're on thereceiving end of snarky comments
or, you know, feedback thatmaybe isn't snarky, but maybe
you're not trained To take itwell or not personally

Yeah.

It hijacks your, your experience, And then
you take work home with you. Soboth sides need a lot of
attention and care, And that'sreally hard to do. Like, I can't
imagine you calling John andbeing like, so this is going on
with my son. And Sometimes I do.Don't know what to do.
Okay. But, John, do you wannareceive that call every day?

(28:10):
Like, no. I don't

Jon Buda (28:10):
Not every day. But Yeah.

You know? I mean, I Yeah. I go to therapy
every month, and that definitelyis, That's just a standing I
just have a standing date. And

Jon Buda (28:21):
to your point

I have therapy today That to excited.

To your point, like, if Whatever is not going
well is the thing I'll talkabout. And then, ironically,
Hey. If everything else is goingwell, it's only then that I'll
talk about, like, internalstuff. Like, Every there's no
fires anywhere else. It's like,okay.
Now I can talk about, like,whatever's on my mind.

Jon Buda (28:46):
Yeah. Mar Marcella, you you mentioned that, like, If
things are going well at work,people will talk about other
issues. Mhmm. And if things arenot going well at work, they'll
talk about work. But do you findA lot of times that if things
are not going well at work,there might be like the
underlying issues that thingsare also not going well in the
rest of their life, And it'saffecting it and, like, they

(29:08):
kind of play off each other?

I haven't experienced that they play off
each other. What I haveexperienced or the patterns that
I have noticed is that there'sThe root cause is usually the
same. So that's why I I reallyenjoy working on mindset Because
when you dig into, like, themindset and what is happening, I
I I think in, like, 3modalities, there's Some people

(29:31):
are more visual. Like, let's sayyou you think of a memory and
you have a visual of it. Youmight had an have an auditory
component of that memory, butthen you also have, like, a
physical kinesthetic, modalityfor that memory.
So I'm thinking about, you know,I went skiing when I was 11, and
I can see the snow. I can hearthe crunching of the snow under

(29:53):
my boot, but I can also smellthe ChapStick that I was, like,
constantly reapplying because mylips were super chapped. So when
you work when you're goingthrough any challenge, whether
it's at, you know, Work or otheraspects of your life. These
three modalities are always atplay. There's something either
you're saying to yourself, andthat's auditory, Or you're

(30:16):
seeing something, like, youknow, I walk into a a party and
I feel social anxiety.
What am I hearing In my ownhead, what am I seeing in my own
head? Or what am I feeling? Itmight be like nerves in my
stomach or whatever. So when youdiffuse and you work with those
3,

Jon Buda (30:33):
Mhmm.

Everything is able to self regulate, and you
can kind of show up as your bestself. Yeah. But those three
modalities are present at workand in the other areas of your
life. So to me, it's all aroundI work in those 3. Yeah.
That's why I enjoy that Yeah.Because I can apply it

Jon Buda (30:51):
to different areas. And that's I mean, like,

if you get, if if if there's something that
triggers me That's related to anexperience I had when I was 12.
That trigger could show up atwork. It could show up on
Twitter. It could show up athome. It gets you up with
friends.
Like, those things you know, thethe number of times my my kids,

(31:12):
like, look at me, and they'relike, dad, Is something
upsetting you on Twitter? AndI'll be like, no. And they're
like, I don't think so. I thinkSo you you get like this when
you're like

Jon Buda (31:25):
Who do you fight

with on Twitter?

I mean, it's true. Like and some of those
Triggers are not even they'rejust related to hurts or traumas
or stuff that happened when Iwas a kid. Yeah. Right? It it's
all the same stuff.
It shows up kinda no matterwhere you are. It it honestly
makes sense that we would need,we would need to process our our

(31:52):
work selves, our Personalselves, our families. It's all
the same self, but, like, insome sort of coaching or therapy
or whatever, you gotta processall that stuff. You know? And
it's often related to the sameissues, but it shows up in
different ways of, like, I mean,there has been times where,
like, John and I were I wasfeeling like something with

(32:15):
John, and my wife is just like,just call him.
I'm like, I don't know. I don'twanna do that. I mean, I and
then She's like, just call him,and then I'll, like, put it off,
and then I'll call. And thenit's just like and it all the
feeling I had was Had nothing todo with John. It was just me
being like, I think John's,like, upset with me or doesn't
like me or whatever.

(32:36):
And and I just call, and thenall of a sudden, it's like, oh,
well, every things are fine.

Jon Buda (32:42):
But The problem is we just hadn't talked in, like, 4
weeks or something.

Hadn't talked in 4 weeks. And so, Yeah. It's
interesting how that stuff, alot of those same issues just
keep showing up, you know, indifferent places.

You mentioned something that There's this
other skill that we talkedabout, self regulation. There's
another one, which is theability to have difficult
conversations. And that doesn'tmean that that it's going to be
a mean conversation or a A nastyconversation. It just means it's
it's gonna be uncomfortable. Itit can be maybe for one person

(33:18):
more than the other.
But a lot of the times, we haveto have these difficult
conversations to get to thisother side. Like, you probably
felt a lot of resistance beforepicking up the phone and talking
to John. Yeah. And so withinTeams, that's also really
important To be able to givefeedback or receive feedback or
to say, hey. I noticed duringthat call that x y z.

(33:42):
I even have once received aSlack message from a cofounder
at a company where I was workingsaying like, hey. I noticed you
looked Sad on our team widecall. Is everything okay?

Jon Buda (33:51):
Mhmm.

And I was like, wow. I never would have
sent that message to somebody.You know? I'd be like, I'm gonna
spec, maybe they're tired, maybesomething happened, maybe. I
don't know.
But that kind of respectfuldistance You know, it was a
question. I could have said, no.I'm fine. I didn't, though. I
was like, actually, yeah.
I had a conversation with thisperson and and I was feeling
upset about it, but I'm gonnatalk to them. Great idea. Let me

(34:13):
know how it goes. And then, Ihad that conversation, and then
everything was fine. So, A lotof the times when we let things
fester because we're we'reexperiencing that resistance to
having that conversation, firstof all, that's a signal to have
the conversation.
Your wife was right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Buda (34:29):
I'm glad

she said that. Yeah. But, but second of
all, it's like, what do youthink is the worst What are we
imagining is going to happen?Again, we go to those 3
modalities. Like, when you thinkcall John or there's this stuff
going around, I'm feelingsomething about John.
Are you are you hearingsomething that, like, he, you
know, he he might be feeling acertain way. Are you seeing

(34:51):
something? Like, for example,when I think about, like, cold
pitching My coaching, I imaginea face of somebody receiving the
call the email and being like,ugh. You know, like, I imagine a
cringe face, And so I don't. Ishy away from that activity.

Oh, interesting. For me, it's all in the heart.
It's just like, I just feelsomething inside. Like, I don't
think we're k. You know, like,it it's it's more of a

Wanna hug you both

Jon Buda (35:17):
right now. Like, you don't you don't want me to
confirm your suspicions orsomething?

I mean, if you did, it would probably still be
fine because then we're at leastfacing it. I I often feel those
things, I think. And then, Yeah.The the the answer is usually
just, like, confronting it. Moreconnection.
Don't ignore it.

Jon Buda (35:41):
You have

to be careful about it. Right? Like, there
there are ways to have thoseconversations where they can go
really wrong. Yeah. And I thinkDo

you have some

tips? This book called I do. Have you read
Radical Candor? It's a greatbook. Radical Candor is I can
summarize it really quick foryou.
There's 2 things that areimportant. 1, you have to care
personally about the person, andyou have to be able to challenge
them directly.

Jon Buda (36:03):
Mhmm.

So but when you challenge, like, when you
challenge somebody directly,there's 2 ways that it can go
wrong, which you can be you canbe obnoxious aggressive, which I
have worked with somebody who isvery aggressive and abrasive for
seemingly no reason, and that isobviously not a situation you
wanna be in. And then there is,like, ruinous empathy because

(36:27):
what that is is I'm gonna avoidHaving this conversation because
I want, you know, I don't wannahurt your feelings, or I don't
want to risk our relationship byoffending you, so I'm just gonna
avoid the discomfort. And thenbut if that happens, then The
team's work suffers becausethere's no honesty there. And

(36:51):
then there's this, third onewhich is, like, you can be
Insincere, but in a manipulativeway. Like, I want you to like
me, so I'm not gonna tell you.
I'm not gonna be straight withyou because I don't wanna it's
not that I don't wanna avoid theconflict. It's that I want you
to like me, and so I'mmanipulating you a little bit.
So You wanna avoid those 3. Ithink most teams that I, I'm

(37:16):
involved with a fall under thatsecond, like that ruinous
empathy, or I don't wanna hurtyour feelings. So how can you
show somebody that you do carepersonally, but you want to help
them grow by sharing x y z

Yeah.

Feedback or guidance or whatever.

Jon Buda (37:33):
I think the last place I was working at before
transistor, there was a lot ofthat. There was, like, Everyone
seemingly wanted to get along,and then there was, like, back
channel Slack, just peopletalking shit about everyone.

Yeah. When When there's a meeting after the
meeting, that's that's no.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the the tricky part
about a lot of this is thatthere's tension on alls on in
different directions. Forexample, I remember I I would at
a young age, I was given some,leadership positions.

(38:10):
And, you know, I'm Feeling goodabout myself. I'm feeling like,
okay. I'm the leader here. Andthen I would go to someone with
some some feedback, and I feltlike I was being sincere. I felt
like, you know, I cared aboutthe other person, all these
things.
But it turns out that my insightwas wrong. Meaning, like, you

(38:30):
know, here's the issue that Iwanna talk about. But I was just
wrong about the issue, and thatis also possible. Like, you can
have somebody coming to you withAll the right they they've
checked all the boxes, but, Iget this on Twitter a lot. Like,
people come to me going, like,Man, you seem, like, really

(38:51):
upset.
I'm like, no. I'm not. I'm fine.Well, no. I could tell you're
upset right now.
It's like, I'm actually fine.Well, if you were fine yeah. And
it's like, well

Do a lot of fighting on Twitter, Justin.
What's going on?

But this is the thing. This is the thing. It's
like, the, the point of view Isis plays into this. Right? There
are bosses that just have thewrong point of view.
They're not not every boss isgonna be right all the time. And
so, you know, you can go tosomeone and give them feedback,
and and they might be feelinglike, well, this is my boss.

(39:29):
They're giving me The theradical candor approach, they
did everything right. But in theback of their minds, they're
like, but is he right? I don'tknow.
Like, it's hard to know. In reallife, I find all that stuff more
messy. Right? Like, the therethere's, especially, You know,
it could just be, I've gotdifferent values than you. You

(39:53):
know, the boss might think,well, you're, I don't know.
I I'm I'm speaking generally,but your your your behavior is
unacceptable. But it turns outthere's just a they just have
different values. And it's notlike I mean,

I think if you're getting that feedback,
you're kinda fucked. Like Yes.Your behavior's unacceptable.
I'm I'm talking more like, Youknow, metrics, data driven.
Like, something where you can Iwould imagine that If if there's
a leader that I'm working withthat they are willing to have

(40:29):
the person that they're givingfeedback To be able to give them
their own perspective and pointof view back and just be clear
and kind, you know, because I dothink in the words of Brene
Brown, I'm her biggest fan girl?
Clear is kind. Yes. Like, justbe clear. And if you disagree,
say it, in a very respectful wayAnd give your reasons for that.

(40:50):
And like that way, it can be aconversation, but I I get it at
the end of the day, boss's boss.
And if you But you can get tothe point where you say, okay. I
disagree for this this thisreason, but I'm happy to try out
your approach and see whathappens. And we can I hate the
term, but circle back, you know?Hopefully, those those
conversations We'll make thework better. And at the end of

(41:14):
the day, we'll drive thebusiness forward.
Because at the end of that, youdon't want somebody who just
says Yes. Like a yes, man. A yeswoman just does whatever the CEO
wants. And then why did you hirethem for? You want experts that
are Willing to and able to giveyou their opinions and their
perspectives so that with morecards on the table, then you can

(41:37):
see what's What's what?

Jon Buda (41:38):
Mhmm.

Right? I don't know. Yeah. I guess maybe
that's just my perspective, butthe majority of people I work
with share that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The I I also like, Mel
Robbins, she has the, connectionover correction, idea, which,
Just resonates with me becauseit's like, am I seeking to
connect or am I seeking tocorrect? Like, is somebody wrong
on the Internet Or am I justtrying to connect with other

(42:05):
people and, you know, drive theconversation forward or, move
the work forward or whatever?
I think it does in practice, itactually does get messier than
than like, the the humanmessiness you alluded to
earlier. I'm trying to think ofoh, I I had a pervert like, a

(42:25):
work situation where I'm incharge of product. Someone was
just deploying stuff without anychecks. Like, they were just
deciding to deploy stuff. Andone day, they just started
decided to change the font onthe whole in the whole app.
And it was actually affectingusers, like, things didn't look

(42:46):
right or whatever. And And Iremember I got upset about it. I
said I I went to them directlysaid, hey. You know, we've got
to talk about this. We have aprocess, And you keep not going
through the process, and it'sactually affecting things for
other people.
And, he was not Responsive. Andthen when I brought it to the

(43:10):
leadership, they basically said,well, you guys are stressing us
out. You so you figure it outyourselves. And there's just a
lot of mess in there. Right?
It's like there's lots to figureout. And At the at the end of
the day, this particular person,like, the way it netted out was
they just weren't right. Thiswasn't the right position for

(43:30):
them. They kept getting bored,And so they kept doing all these
things on their own because theywere bored. And then,
eventually, they the companyrealized they had to go.
Right? But there's mess in that.There's mess, and and it took
years for it to shake out.That's just how it happens. You
know?
Like, that's just That's thefiguring those things out in a

(43:53):
in a moment is So hard becausethere's so many variables. It's
hard to know what's going on.You know? Yeah.

Jon Buda (44:02):
If if you knew that that person was bored earlier,
then you probably could've Fixthe situation.

I think if that person has the ability to
have a difficult conversationand be able to be honest and
say, I'm bored.

Yeah. Yeah.

So there was a lot being kind of pushed into
the rug. I I was in a worksituation recently where, I was
It was like day 5 of not beingpaid on time. Like, David did I
was late 5 days. And when I Iwas constantly reaching out and
hearing crickets, Like, hey.What's going on?
Anything needed on my end? Like,happy to help. Blah blah. Trying

(44:37):
to keep it very positive. Andwhen I finally got in touch, or
got a response.
It was a very abrasive andaggressive response. And when I
said, like, you know, I'mpayment is essential to my
family. I have children andwhatever. And I received LOL.
Oh, nice.
Like, yeah. Not the rightposition for me. Let's go,

(44:57):
folks. Right out. You know?
Yeah. So I think in a lot ofthose situations where you do
hit, like, a wall, Somesomething has to give. In this
case, I was like, I'm removingmyself from this organization as
quickly as possible. Yeah. Yeah.
But, what I did get there was Alot of content and a lot of
realization of, like, empathyfor people who are in this

(45:19):
situation and do not have theprivilege to be able to Decide
to do something else Mhmm. Rightaway. It has to stay. So, in
those situations where thingsjust go wrong, I do try to say,
like, alright. What is what ishere for me?
What is here for me? What can Iwhat did I contribute to this
mess? What red flags did I notsee, or not pay attention to.

(45:41):
What did I contribute? And thenhow can I avoid that in the
future?
And how can I how can I level upYeah? Like me? You know?

You know you know, one thing I keep thinking
about as you're speaking is andeven John and I thinking about
some of the conversations we'vehad lately, which is If if part
of the root problem or thechallenge for us is like, wow,
there's just so many thingswe've We have to keep track of

(46:10):
there there's really only a fewoptions. Right? We can simplify.
Like, we can just do lessthings. We can make this like,
we've just decided we're notgonna do enterprise sales
because it just adds too much toour team.
So, okay. We're just going to doless. The second thing we can do
is get help. So like the, The inthe same way that, you know, now

(46:33):
John and I are like, maybe weshould just this sales tax
thing, every time we look at it,it really bums us out. Maybe we
just need if it's something wehave to do, maybe we just need
to get help.
And I think in the same way thatWhen you're, a founder of a
company or leading a company,just the the weight of

(46:56):
everything can just Feeloverwhelming, including, like,
your you told the story of theCEO reaching out to you in Slack
saying, hey, is everything okay?It's like There's some days
where I think, you know, Johnand I feel like we could be that
person, and then there's otherdays it's like, fuck me. Like, I
can't I I could barely take careof myself right No. You know?

(47:16):
Yeah.
And and I think the answer tothe overwhelm is just well, How
can you create margin? And maybeit's to, like, hire someone like
you or, like, just get some helpso that, you know, we're not the
only ones Playing that role on ateam.

Yep. And I also think, like, to your point,
like, every obstacle or everyevery challenge Has
interference. And how can youface that interference? How can
you get over that interference?There's a bunch of solutions.
There's all these options Thenmaybe you just need help shining
a light on them, you know, andin in this case, it might be
getting help or whatever. But Ialso know that on some teams,

(47:57):
there's more of a sense of Calmand overwhelmed and less
overwhelmed because they have abigger team in terms of, like,
admin stuff. So there areThere's different ways to solve
all kinds of challenges. Whathappens is when you're in your
own head a lot, you can't seethe can't see it. You know, you

(48:18):
just get too bogged down in thissucks.
This sucks. This sucks. I don'twanna do this.

Jon Buda (48:22):
It's almost, yeah. I mean, it is, it is almost like

not having, Sorry.

Jon Buda (48:26):
Not having that difficult conversation with
someone where Yeah. You're justputting it off and putting it
off. Meanwhile, there's otherstuff happening and piling on
top of that. It's kind of thesame with, like, All these tasks
we just Yeah. Need to do.
We Yeah. We put them off, butthere's other stuff that comes
up. And now that's on top of theother thing. Yeah. And before
you know it, it's like, oh, wow.
We're not like, we have all thisother stuff we wanna do for the

(48:48):
product that is really fun andamazing. Yeah. And is maybe
getting, like, pushed back orslowed down a bit because of
Yeah. Other things.

You know? And what's interesting is that I
always feel like a magicianbecause, Like, in my sessions,
when I mentioned because peoplecan't see their own stuff very
clearly

Jon Buda (49:06):
Mhmm.

And I can because I'm just sitting on the
So I I get to, like, present,like, all these magical
solutions. I'm like, have youconsidered blah? And they're
like, no. Fuck. That is that'sGenius.
Yeah. And I'm like

Just the outside perspective.

Exactly. So I'm not I'm not anything
special. I guess I'm trained inall this Stuff. And I will
always continue training, but,like, a lot of the value in
having somebody to speak to isjust that they're not you.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Totally.

So Yes. It's a very Special seat to be able
to sit in, sometimes feels likea little bit like miraculous
because I'm like, I just signedup. I just clicked the Zoom
link, and here I am. We'rehaving this conversation, and
now all this this person'schallenge is just completely I
don't wanna say solve, but,like, just so clear, and now

(49:52):
action steps are lined up. Andthen 2 weeks later, they come
back and they're, like, wentgreat.
So what do we work on next? I'mlike, great. Let's do something
new. You know? And and to beable to help people with that is
It's pretty badass.

Yeah. Sounds awesome. I think we're gonna
have to have you come backbecause the we we got into it
feels like we just scratched thesurface of a lot of the things
that you cover. And yeah. You'reyou're, you're welcome back
anytime.
If people have been listeningI'd

love to.

And they wanna get a hold of you because they
wanna work with you, they wannaget some coaching, either for
their team or As founders, howcan they reach out?

They can reach me at marcella.co. So
marcella.c0. My newsletter, Selfwork is there?

Jon Buda (50:46):
And and what what type of people are you generally
looking for? Like, any anyone?Just anyone that's Wants to work
through some work life stuff.

Never turned somebody away that needs
support. Like I work withentrepreneurs who don't have
teams, for example, justsolopreneurs. But, and I
definitely always have to likevibe With the person. If I can't
imagine myself having a veryamicable conversation for many
hours and enjoying it, Iprobably shouldn't should not

(51:16):
coach them. But that being said,I get the most energy and, like,
Exuberant feedback from workingwith when I am able to work with
a team and It's always optionalbecause you can't force somebody
to do coaching.

(51:36):
But if you give somebody theoption to do it, they usually do
say yes. I would say, like,maybe, like, 90 to 95% of the
people say yes, And they reallyenjoy it. Always want to come
back for more, which is like mybarometer for enjoyment of
coaching. And what I love aboutthat is that you get to the root
cause. You you you're able tosupport the organization on all

(51:58):
these different levels.
But, Also, when teams are not upfor it, I do I do talk to
individuals. Usually, like,those rising stars need a lot of
support, And they're hungry. AndI think people who choose to do
coaching wanna be really good atwhat they do, and they wanna
have a really good life. Like,they are looking to optimize
their time on planet Earth. Idon't see people who don't care

(52:21):
too much signing up forcoaching.
You know, just like I playbasketball, but, you know, for
fun versus I wanna be MichaelJordan. I'm gonna work with all
the different coaches, and I'mgoing to work on every single
aspect of my game. 2 verydifferent profiles. People who
sign up for coaching really wantto, improve how they show up at

(52:43):
work And also other areas oftheir life. I mean, there are
people who just coach moms.
That's not me, but, like, itapplies to every aspect of your
life. If you wanna get reallygood, you you need a lot of
support and push, to get there.

Yeah. And that outside perspective, like you
said,

Jon Buda (53:00):
It's an easy thing to forget. I mean, I was, you know,
I grew up in in sports andswimming and and like a good
coach makes, I mean, it makeslike Such a difference. I mean,
I've had bad coaches. I havegood coaches, and it just, like,
is night and day. Yeah.

Think about your life and think about the
people who have really made youfeel Like, they saw your
potential and that they reallybelieved in your potential.
Like, really thought, Justin,John, you can do amazing things.
I know you can.

Mhmm.

And those people probably, like, framed
And and built the majority of,like, your self worth because I
think back to teachers andthings like that. And so, like,
if I can be that for people,That's incredibly powerful. So
like I said, I'll never turnsomebody away after, like, the
vibe filter, But, I do thinkthat my startup experience gives

(53:56):
me a lot of, Like, leverage inthat area where I can be extra
helpful.

Yeah. Do

you know what I mean?

Yeah. I highly recommend Marcela's newsletter.
I read every time you said one,I read it. I find it it helpful.

Thank you.

Like, every time I, a new one comes in, it's very
helpful. And if you're lookingfor a place to start, that's a
great place to start. Justreally great stuff. Thanks so
much, Marcela, being here. Thiswas awesome.

Jon Buda (54:22):
Yeah. Thank you very much. This is great.

Thanks for having me, guys. This is
awesome. I love seeing you, bothof you. Yeah. Like, if I could,
I'd give you a little littlehugs.

Alright. Well, that was a great conversation.
John, why don't we thank Thepeople who support us on
Patreon.

Jon Buda (54:39):
Yeah. Thanks as always to everyone. We have Pascal from
Sharpen dot page, the fine folksat rewardful.com, Greg Park,
Mitchell Davis fromrecruitkit.com.au, Marcel Falais
from wearebold.af, EthanGunderson, Anton Zoran from
prodcamp.com, Bill Kondo, Wardfrom memberspace.com, Russell

(55:05):
Brown from votivo.com, AvangroSassy, Austin Loveless, Michael
Sitfer, Fathom Analytics, ourfriends, my brother Dan Buddha
Mhmm. Colin Gray, and DaveJunta.

Junta. You know, I've been, Junta's and I have
been interacting on Mastodon.

Jon Buda (55:25):
Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. Folks can follow
him at djunta@mastodon.social.Thanks, everyone. We'd love to
hear what you thought of thisepisode.
Shoot us a DM or a message onany of the places, and we will
talk to you next time we do anepisode. Bye.

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Startup coaching: helping founders and team members realize their full potential

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