July 9, 2025 • 53 mins
The founders of HW Contracting share their 15-year journey from getting laid off to building a successful roofing business together, highlighting the realities of partnership, narrowing business focus, and balancing work with family life.
• Started business out of necessity after both being laid off during economic downturn
• Initially took on any construction jobs that would pay the bills
• Made difficult transition to narrowing focus exclusively to roofing
• Learning to say "no" to projects outside their specialty was challenging but transformative
• Compared $20k bathroom remodel taking six weeks versus $20k roof installation completed in one day
• Hired consultant to help define clear partner roles and responsibilities
• Building systems that allow the business to function without the founders' constant involvement
• Creating lanes of responsibility prevents conflict and builds clarity
• Trust between partners is essential for long-term success
• Reject "work-life balance" in favor of a "work-life blender" approach
• Being fully present in the moment whether at work or with family
• Entrepreneurship provides unique flexibility despite its demands
Do the right thing for the customer every time, and your business will be on solid ground.
Listen to other episodes and see videos of the podcast at http://buildingabusinessthatlasts.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Have you ever started a business and wondered how
you're going to get it all done?
Some of you have a partner,maybe you don't.
In this episode, I'm going totalk to the guys from HW
Contracting, talking about theearly years when they got laid
off from their job and then theyhad to start a new thing.
They had to endeavor thisentrepreneurial effort and never
done it before.
They created a partnership,which is also really difficult.
So we talk about all the nittygritty, the things that work,
(00:22):
the things that differ did it,and how they have not just
survived but thrived over thelast 15 years, and done that
with families and all the otherthings that go along with life.
Without any further ado, here'smy interview with the guys from
HW Contracting.
Hey guys, welcome to the show.
Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Richard, hey, how's it going man?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So we've known each other for a long time.
I don't even know how longwe've known each other for a
long time, I don't even know howlong, how long you and I go
back to middle school.
That's true, that's a very longtime.
I'd like to not admit how longit was.
I just did a podcast a littlewhile ago with a guy who was 85
and he kept calling me a youngman and I was like I appreciate
that because it's not how Ialways feel, but y'all have been
in business together for howlong?
When did people start thebusiness?
(01:08):
There's a lot of risk involved.
It's like I'm leaving somethingand something will leap.
Some people it's like they,they, they lost a job or they
had major life change like let'sjust try this new thing.
And some people are just likewell, I don't know, we got this
dream, was tried out.
So what was y'all's kind oforigin story in that process?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
This was not a dream, it was a necessity.
We both got laid off from thesame company.
We worked for a largemultifamily builder in
Jacksonville up and down thesoutheast here, and the economy
tanked in the early 2000s and wewere casualty with that, and so
it was a choice to get out ofconstruction, find a career in
something else that wasavailable or start a business
(01:44):
and hopefully by the time theeconomy rebounded we had a
successful business or a stablebusiness.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Now, did either of y'all ever run a business before
that?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
No, so this was the first time and you know this far
along that Elizabeth seemed tohave swam.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
We didn't want to retool.
Neither of us wanted to go backto school, learn something
different.
We enjoyed what we were doingin construction and the type of
work we were doing qualified usto get our general contractor's
license, which in the tiers ofcontractor licenses that was at
the top.
So we were both able to getthat license and that allows us
to do any type of constructionand unlimited scope of
(02:20):
construction.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So, when you started the business I know now you
focus a ton on roofing, but whenyou started the business, what
was the focus of the things thatyou were doing?
Was it anything and everythingthat you could get your hands on
?
Or what was the?
What did you decide?
This is what we're going to do.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
First couple of years , yeah, it was anything that
would pay the bills, but theidea was custom builder, custom
remodel.
That was the goal and only itstarted working our way to that.
But yeah, the first year or twowas Whoever had something, it
would pay.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
We got a call one weekend.
Somebody needed shipping cratesbuilt and they had a budget and
they told us what it was and wesaid yeah we'll do that.
Built shipping crates.
Our first job was wood rotsiding repair.
I think was our first job andthe dream was, like Peter said,
custom homes, custom remodels,that we got into commercial
(03:07):
build outs, you know, helped youguys build out your space and,
yeah, that's what we thought wewere going to do.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Our dream was to build, you know, stuff that you
see in magazines and that wasthe the direction we were going
so talk about, you know, thoseearly years, especially people
you know glamorizeentrepreneurship, the business
ownership, as this, like you'regonna have freedom and you're
gonna have money and you'regonna have purpose, and I find a
lot of times you actually endup with none of them in the
(03:33):
early years.
You don't have any money andyou don't have any freedom and
you don't really know what yourpurpose is.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, there's I'm not gonna say there's nothing
glamorous about it.
It gets better if you, if youstick with it, but in the early
years there was nothingglamorous.
I mean, you know they say blendsweat and tears, arguing
vehemently uh, with a, we got a,we're partners, yeah, so it's
like like a marriage and andkind of fleshing things out and
(03:58):
stuff like that.
You know, not making enoughmoney, what are we going to do?
Arguing about that?
It is not pretty.
Should you go back and work forsomebody?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
else.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, do berserker.
Bad decision and at one pointwe were offered our old jobs
back.
That company came out of therecession and they actually came
out really well.
They're a great company.
They did offer the jobs backand we decided to stick with it,
which I think it's like as faras entrepreneurship goes.
We can talk more about this, ifyou want to later.
Sticking with it is the hardpart, but if you stick with it
(04:30):
and you do it right, there ismore happiness on the other side
.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, I mean that's true for both of our stories.
I mean I remember plenty ofyears where I just thought, oh,
now we're going to make thiswork, and that was without the
stress of a partner.
But I think partnership'sinteresting because, well, dave
Ramsey always says partnershipssink ships.
But you know, we all admit it,we're the rarities.
They say it.
But at the same time there isalso a little bit of like.
(04:56):
I would think I'm just guessing, because I've never had a
partner like a shared burden.
You know where it's like.
At least at least you're notthe only one who knows what the
pain is that you're currentlyenduring, enduring where nobody
else, when you run it solo,nobody else really knows what
you're actually going to do.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I think there's a lot to that.
If either one of us had to doit by ourselves, I think we'd
probably shut it down and gowork somewhere else.
Maybe not now that we've got anestablished company, but the
beginning, I tell you, when you,when they offers our jobs back,
we like talk to each other.
I was like, if you go, I got togo, or vice versa.
I'm not going to do this bymyself.
Because of that same sharedburdens, shared experience.
(05:34):
We're fortunate that weactually can do each other's job
, but we actually thrive untilhe suffers fears that he does
one thing and that's kind of hislane and I do the other things
so talk about that, and how longdid it take you identify the
fact that you do do differentthings better in your own
leagues?
I think early audits kind ofblended we worked together for
(05:54):
four years prior to starting ourcompany, so we already knew
each other pretty well.
So it didn't take a terriblylong time to start flushing out
the lanes, but I maybe the firstfour or five years we did
probably have some overlap andsome toe stepping and things
which caused some headachesalong the way when we switched
to do as just roofing, it gotreally clarified.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I run the field, peter runs the back office.
But to your point earlier aboutentrepreneurs and maybe it
being a little easier if youhave a partner, in some ways it
is.
It's not as lonely.
I think entrepreneurship can bevery lonely when you have a
partner.
It's not quite as lonely.
You have someone that you cango to and even now if I'm having
a problem in the field, I callthem.
(06:36):
Hey, here's the problem we'rehaving.
It's going to cost us somemoney.
How do you think we should workthis out?
So there's some benefits tothat.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Right, yeah, because for me, you know, having never
had a partner, I would arguethat my wife is kind of like my
partner, but she's, I mean, sheis certainly in life but she's
not in the business because shedoesn't have any context for
whatever I tell her.
You know what I'm saying, andso.
But it was interesting becauseyou kind of compared
partnerships to marriage becausethere's a little bit of that,
but.
So, but it was interestingbecause you kind of compared
(07:05):
partnerships to marriage becausethere's a little bit of that,
but then you're also alsomarried.
You know, not each other,obviously, but, and so there's
all these dynamics going on.
There's real marriage, there'skids, there's business.
There's a stress that actuallyhaving to make enough money to,
you know, not just pay, becausethe other thing is there's two
of you, so you've got to.
Basically business has got toproduce twice as much.
You know, even in the earlydays it's being enough to even
just keep your life to your ownhouses Versus.
(07:27):
For me at least, I just had todo my own thing make enough for
one person for a while, thenthat's good enough.
You know one family.
So talk about that dynamic, alittle bit of like the at home
life and how that overflows withthe business life and kind of
things that have gone well,maybe even some things that
haven't.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So for a majority of the time I have not brought the
work stuff home to my wife withlike vent to her and stuff like
that.
I don't know if it's good.
I think that I think in a lotof ways it's good.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I've started to talk to her more recently about
things and I think I probablyshould have been doing that more
along the way.
What I didn't want to do isbring the crap home and burden
her with that.
So I internalize a lot of thatand maybe there's some pros and
some cons with that.
I've started to kind of let herin more on those things
(08:19):
recently and now actually she'sher, Our wives are actually
employees of the company, soI've got her working on a few
projects and stuff like that.
So early on I internalized alot of it.
Maybe shouldn't have, but Ididn't want to bring a bunch of
work crap home.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Well, it's interesting because a lot of
people say you shouldn't do that, you shouldn't bring work crap
home, basically, and I'm anexternal processor so it's very
hard for me to hold things in,and if I do, it doesn't last
very long and it usuallyexplodes.
So claren generally has likeheard all the things all along.
The danger is, I think, whenyou at least for me,
historically, when I've onlyshared the negative things,
(09:00):
especially about when there'speople problems, and then she's
like, well, I don't know whythat person still works here,
like just fire them.
I'm like, babe, it's not thateasy, there's a lot of other
things involved.
She's like, I know, but you'realways complaining about them
and I'm like what's?
your problem Sometimes.
I usually see it as it takes melong enough to figure it out,
(09:22):
or as a reminder that sometimesthere right.
So I wonder about I mean, howhas that worked out for both of
y'all?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
So for me my wife and I.
We've always shared.
She worked up until recently.
Within the last year she had ajob, so she would come home and
tell me her headaches and hertale of the headaches.
And I mean it caused problemsat times, but mainly because
just us as people humans, youknow we sometimes say something
and then causes an argument oversomething, but then we just had
(09:50):
to work it out.
But we never really had aproblem sharing.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And if it caused problems we just figured it out
Like all right well, maybe youdidn't do as well together in
business partnership in theearly years, that maybe you have
learned over 15 years that youdo a little bit better job of
now.
What are some of?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
those like things that maybe didn't go well in
early years that you've now kindof learned how to do better.
I mean, I think communicate alot of it boils down to
communication and identifyingthe lanes that you're going to
work in.
When there was overlap, I thinkthere was probably the most
problems and then you know kindof deciding.
They are, you know, caleb'sgoing to be, you know kind of
the operations side of thebusiness and Peter's going to be
running all the admin side, theback end side, insurance,
(10:38):
contract payments, allfinancials, all that stuff you
know, and they very rarelycrossed these days.
In the early days they crosseda lot and we weren't making
enough money and that causesmore problems.
But I think maybe just nothaving clear, clearly
communicated roles andresponsibilities probably led to
(11:00):
a lot of grief in the earlyyears.
We had to hire a consultant tohelp us iron out like a meteor.
She was like a combination of atherapist, a business coach, a
psychologist, and got in a roomand literally argued it out and
she helped us work.
Sometimes you have to work.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I think it's establishing those lanes and
eventually we just kind of ittook us a few years to spray
that but we finally workedthrough and had those lanes.
Like I said, we both can stepin and help the other one do
things when they're traveling orneed, but you still have kind
of like yeah, I would say it'slike everything can't be
everybody's responsibility,right, and the example it's even
(11:40):
when you with team members.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You know, one of my biggest pet peeves is when
people take a task and assign itto multiple people and I'm like
you can't do that.
You can't do that.
In the same way that you can'ttell, you can't say hey, kids go
unload the dishwasher.
And I'm like who's going tounload the dishwasher?
When I say that, the answer isno, no one's going to do it.
Why?
Because of it.
I thought she was going to doit, but it's for her day.
(12:02):
Well, I did it yesterday andarguably, us as adults aren't
that much different than kids,like nine times out of ten, and
I don't think we should treatour employees like they're our
children.
That's not the same thing.
But as people, that is kind ofthe same outcome and I'm always
like, regardless of how high upan organization is, even at a
true partnership level, I thinkknowing like what are my key
(12:22):
responsibilities?
What are the things that, if Iwon't do anything else this week
, what are the three to fivethings that I have to do to keep
this thing going?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, for sure, and I think what I think about is, as
we grow, as we've gotten bigger, the dollars get bigger, the
responsibilities get bigger andwe start doing more projects.
Identifying what I don't thinkwe've done a great job of is
like identifying a key.
Who's going to run this segment, and that's probably something
(12:50):
I think we need to get better atis all right, this is your
responsibility.
You're going to run this, andif you need my help, let me know
and whether it's he and I, orassigning the team member to do
that and then making themresponsible for it and then just
following up.
I think, as you get on inbusiness, those roles have to be
more and more clear, more andmore defined.
Yeah, like you said, if youtell two people to go do it,
it's probably not going to getdone.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well, even like for Chris and I I mean, we've been
working together for as long asy'all have actually for 15 years
15th year, which is crazy andwhile we're not technically
partners on paper still operatesa lot like that.
You know, and I know for melike my job in general is care
(13:33):
for vision and culture, speak onstages, which includes stuff
like this, and keep money in thebank, and if I'm doing those
three things, then I'm doing myjob.
And he's got a whole list of afew things care for clients,
care for the team and go sellnew things.
You know, if he's doing thosethree things, he's doing his job
for the team and go sell newthings.
If he's doing those threethings, he's doing his job.
That said, either one of uscould do the other person's role
on any given Sunday if weneeded to, and we're happy to.
(13:54):
I want him to go have avacation and be with his family
and hang out and not have toworry about answering his emails
and phone, and vice versa.
I want to have that backupbecause I think a lot of people
neglect that in business,especially solopreneurs.
They don't have that likebackup, because I spent gosh
probably a decade, you knowwhere.
I had no backup.
(14:15):
I had no.
Well, while I destroyed it inany way to fight with, I also
had nobody to like go.
Hey, can you just handle thiswhile I'll take a break for a
minute.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I mean, I think trust is the other thing.
Like we talked about, like ifyou don't have trust or someone
has violated the trust, that'swhere I think partnerships
really start to break down.
I trust Peter intimately, likeour families are friends, Like I
don't have to worry about thefinancial side of the business
because I trust that he's makingthe right decisions.
(14:44):
And even if there was a wrongdecision, like, hey, all right,
you know you made it, let's talkabout how we're going to do
something different next time.
Same thing with the field.
Hey, that may be a bad call,but we haven't violated trust.
And I think that is the keycomponent.
If you don't trust your partneror your key guy, that is going
(15:04):
to lead to a lot of heartaches.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
That's why a lot of entrepreneurship partnerships
fail, I mean we both know theother one's going to do what is
right and what's best, Not onlyfor the customer, for the
company.
Sure, Because we follow.
You know we have an ethos, wehave a moral guy.
You know we're both Christiansand we both are very strong and
(15:30):
we're like what's the rightthing to do?
Whether it's going to cost us alot of money or not, what's the
right thing to do and that'swhat we try to make all of our
decisions on is, at the end ofthe day, if we do the right
thing, it's not going to sink mybattleship.
One wrong thing that might costme even 10,000 bucks.
We had a brief leak and theright thing was to fix something
.
Guy's like how much is it goingto cost you?
I was like man, I don't know.
I was like I don't know, we'regoing to fix it and I'll tally
(15:51):
it in.
We'll figure out what we can dobetter next time.
That's right.
You learned some good lessons,though, with an $8 seven years
ago, and here we are still threetimes the size of the company.
So we just we do the rightthing and that's how we make our
decisions.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You generally can't be wrong if you're doing the
right thing for the customer.
Yeah, you know we could talkabout maybe there was multiple
right ways to handle it andmaybe we would prefer if you'd
done a different way.
But you can't fall.
I tell my team the same thing.
If you can't get ahold of me ifI'm in a meeting, I'm in a
podcast, phone's off.
Sure At your.
Your default is just do thebest thing for the customer and
(16:32):
I can't be mad at you, right?
Maybe, maybe I would have goneabout these situations, Just
like I can't be now.
We can maybe talk about adifferent way.
Now we can maybe talk about adifferent way.
We could have done it.
Maybe that would have cost usless money or something like
that, but I'll never fault youfor doing what you thought was
best for the customer.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Well, I always say too, I believe that part of a
leader's responsibility of ateam is to create a space where
people have the opportunity tofail, just not fail
catastrophically.
I don't want them to destroythemselves, I don't want them to
destroy the business, butthere's very few things that
will actually do that.
There are some and I want toput some guardrails on to
protect from those things.
But in general and again not tomake the kid analogy again, but
(17:13):
it's kind of like kids too it'slike, as kids grow up, you're
going to let that rope out alittle bit because they're going
to have to go figure it out ontheir own one day, and it's in
my best interest as a leader formy teams to be able to function
without me.
I think one of the mistakesthat tons of small businesses
make especially is that theowner just is completely
unwilling to even let the ropeout a little bit on people and
(17:35):
they just want to control somuch and then they're stressed
out, worn out, ready to quitbecause they work 80 plus hours
a week and have no other way todo it because they're not
willing to let their team makesome mistakes.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So that's why I was not answering the phone, just
not itching to call.
If I'm in is to figure it out,and then you call back in 30, 40
minutes.
Hey, what'd you need?
I figured it Exactly.
It's the best.
What was your solution?
And then usually it's a goodone or you say hey, that was a
great, here's another optionnext time.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I might've done this, yeah, so what I'm trying to do
right now.
So me and my family are takinga trick out West in June.
We're going to do similar towhat you did.
I don't remember if you stayedconnected during that month.
Hell does.
You did not.
Okay, so I'm going to stayconnected.
Yeah, I'm going to run myportion of the business remotely
while we RV out West, similarto what you did.
So what I'm trying to teach theteam that kind of works directly
(18:25):
under me is my thought process,how I process problems.
Really, our job in construction, everything's a fire and our
job is problem solving.
Every day, for sure, every dayof the week, we're problem
solving.
So I'm trying to teach them,not the what, I'm trying to
teach them the why, why I thinkthrough things the way that I do
(18:46):
, so that they can learn mythought process.
And if they understand mythought process, hopefully they
end up with where I would haveended up.
So I'm not teaching the what asmuch as I'm teaching.
Here's the why I came to thisdecision and I'm actually, when
they call me with a problem,instead of me solving the
problem right now, I'm sayingokay, I know the answer to this.
(19:06):
What is your answer?
100.
Walk me through what is youranswer.
And when that doesn't work,what's your next thing?
And make them walk through.
That.
That's what I'm trying to donow, instead of solving every
problem, because if, if theyknow you'll solve every problem,
they'll just call you everytime absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, I think that's a great example is the best
thing to ask somebody when theybring your a problem is well,
what are you going to do aboutthat and what's your solution?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
we should do, and I always tell people too.
One of the things I've learnedis my instinct in the early
years would be like don't dothat, do this instead.
I actually, if I think I have abetter idea, but their idea is
not a horrible one, I wouldalmost rather them do their idea
and I'm like let's just seewhat happens, because, number
one, it might actually be betterthan my idea.
(19:52):
Number one.
Number two you know, it's likeif I'm constantly having to
correct them, they might notwant to bring me a suggestion
and I would rather so.
I tell people all the time likedon't.
Number one, don't bring me aproblem without a potential
solution.
And number two I've heard ofthe analogy is like well,
somebody brings a monkey intoyour office.
They take it back out with them.
You know the monkey's theproblem.
(20:12):
So like don't leave your monkeyin my office, don't put a hand
grenade in and shut the door's.
Good as a whole, not just forme, because they then become
more valuable, not just for thecompany but for themselves, and
so I have the opportunity to paythem more because they're going
(20:33):
to take on more, which meansthe company could take on more.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, it's not for that as well.
Through that process, I've hada few instances where I ask them
hey, what's your plan?
How would you solve this?
And they come up with an ideathat I hadn't thought of.
That was actually better thanmy idea 100%.
That's when I'm like, okay,we're winning.
Now You're bringing me ideasthat I hadn't thought of, so,
thank you, keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, I mean, when you get the right people in the
right seats, that's what they do, you know.
I mean there's plenty of peopleon our team now that are so
elite compared to even me in theearly days, like Natalie who
helps run your accounts.
She's freaking sharp.
I mean that girl is so smart.
I don't want to denigrateanybody else in the office,
(21:18):
including myself, but she'sprobably the smartest one in the
office.
Her brain just works reallygood and she's able to come up
with ideas and she'll bringstuff up the table and I'll be
like, oh, I've not even thoughtof that.
Like that's a whole differentlevel of where we're.
You know where we're going.
And then you start to get startto see how companies really
scale beyond the founder.
(21:38):
In fact, a lot of companiesdon't see their like most
exponential growth until theoriginal founders replaced I
think about this this with, likeBozard Ford, for example.
Bozard and Lenny are goodfriends of ours, clients and
Bo's grandfather started BozardFord.
I think his grandfather yeah.
The original location was rightthere in St Augustine, off the
(21:59):
main drag, there right thatsmall little oh yeah, but if you
look at the transition, evenfrom Bo's dad to him, him and
Letty have exponentially grownit to a different level.
It's incredible.
You know from wherever it wasin the country.
Yeah, it's crazy, but but buthe has done it from a different
level of leadership and growthand fall than probably his dad
(22:21):
or granddad ever could have.
You know, and sometimes likegetting the right people and
helps a company grow beyond themSometimes.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I heard somewhere that it could have been a Dave
Ramsey thing.
It could have been in any oneof those leadership things that
sometimes a company's limitingfactor is the boss or the owner.
A hundred percent is theircapacity to handle.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, you call it the leadership lid.
I mean, whoever the leader isis the limiting factor on the
business, and sometimes the bestthing you can do is actually
get out of the way or increaseyour own capacity and knowledge.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yeah, so one thing I think we're trying to do better
now is create a team that,because we're in a no delusion
of him and I left, now thecompany stops For sure.
So we're trying to create acompany that that's not the case
.
And you know, we've got a fiveto 10 year plan where we want a
company that actually could runwithout our direct input on a
day to basis, and part of that,I think, is we're lucky, we're
in a male dominated kind ofindustry.
(23:12):
We have a couple girls thatwork with us and we could be
pretty straightforward with it,sure, and so when I, when they
come to me with their things, Ijust tell them like, look, solve
the problem.
It's like I pay you to solvethe problem, solve the problem.
It's like I pay you to solvethe problem, solve the problem.
And as long as you don't dothese things, I'll probably live
with it.
We'll go over it, we'll see ifthere was a better solution, but
(23:33):
just solve it.
Yeah, that's what I need you todo.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
For sure.
So you all have done a lot oftransition over the years you
talked about when you started.
You did all kinds of things.
Whatever will pay the bills, somost of it comes screwing some
light bulbs.
I'll come screwing light bulbsif I need to and then put some
money in the bank.
But now you've really narrowedthat focus.
You're like okay, now we'refocused on roofing.
So what was that transitionlike of going identifying the
(23:59):
products or services, if youwill, that you are best at, that
, you're most profitable at thatyou like the most, whatever it
may be?
How have you learned to narrowthe company down?
Because I see that a lot with alot of companies over time is
they start to narrow their focuswhen they find what works
really well.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
So we had to learn the word no.
That was very tough.
When you know him and I, wecame from the do side of
construction.
We were like you said.
Neither one of us wanted to owna business.
I think we might have it passedthrough our mind that we were
kind of forced into it.
And here we are, like we knewhow to do this stuff.
So it's hard to not go do it,sure Right, and to say no one in
(24:35):
the beginning for him and I sayno if, if it requires me to
lift a hammer, then I'm goingbackwards.
So that was the first step andfirst step.
And then, as we started addingpeople, they knew we had the
ability or that we came fromcertain types of construction
and learning and teaching them.
No, we have to say no becausewe are only going to focus on
this thing called roofing,because if we try to be
(24:55):
everything to everybody, we'rejust going to go backwards.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
We were failing miserably at trying to be
everything to everybody.
We were doing commercial buildouts, we're doing custom
remodels, we're trying to do newconstruction and we had our
first new construction ground-uphouse and we kind of stumbled
into roofing A good friend ofmine from church.
I was remodeling their kitchenand it went really well.
(25:19):
Good project, so let's say itwas $60,000 kitchen At the end
of it.
He was in the roofing businesson the distribution side and he
actually be great for yourpodcast.
He's an amazing guy.
He started coming to me sayingif you can sell a $60,000
kitchen, you can sell a 15,$20,000 roof.
And I'm like man.
I literally said I will neverbe a greasy roofer, never.
(25:42):
And he he pounded on me forover a year, year and a half,
and I can't remember what thecatalyst was.
We were having a bad remodel,the remodel was going badly and
we were having multiple bad jobs.
As we were trying to grow, wewere trying to bring people in
to manage our jobs.
Peter and I weren't on the jobevery day anymore.
(26:02):
We were losing control andneither one of us were happy
about that.
Customers aren't happy, we'reburning relationships and I said
, all right, I'm going to dip mytoe, leasing money.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
We're bleeding money To make it to stop.
We're like what it takes to fixit.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, I said I'm going to dip my toe into this
reefing water and just see whatit's about.
And I think right about thenHurricane Matthew hit.
So that was a big boost.
And literally one day whenPeter and I were in the office,
we were in one room together.
We were basically sitting sideby side.
Sure, peter said where's thiscash flow coming from?
So I think that's the roots man.
(26:38):
And he said we should do moreof that.
So then we were going to doboth, yeah, sure, and brought a
guy in to kind of run theroofing division and that went
horribly bad, poor stuff for us,and we made a horrible deal
with him, like he was going toget a huge cut.
I'm kind of glad he flaked.
(26:58):
We have like an up-offitsharing thing and it went really
south and it forced me to getinto the roofing side of our
business hands-on sure so nowI'm out selling roofs, I'm
managing the installs I'm, youknow, from ground up, you know
and I took over all theconstruction stuff from ground
(27:19):
up execution up, estimating andrunning the accounting.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
so while we were doing that, the roofs just kept
growing and the money just keptand I kept looking at how long
it took us to get to the dollarsof the other jobs.
I'm like faster turnaround.
I was like do you want to dothis anymore?
And he's like I don't reallywant to.
And I was like I really don'twant to run another construction
job.
I was like what if we just didroofing?
(27:43):
And another thing you heardthrough the grapevine a long
time ago.
Someone said pick something,get good at it, pick one thing
and get really good at it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
That's why we've done that and we've built all these
new roofs.
Yeah, and you know you couldmake an argument that there's
always construction, but youknow, set all that aside with a
roof.
Here's what did it for me.
Okay, typical bathroom remodel,let's say master bathroom
remodel.
Let's say, you know, full thing, gut and redo, reshape all that
(28:11):
.
Let's say it's $20,000.
We were doing a $20,000 roof inone day.
That $20,000 bathroom remodelwould take six weeks.
It was a painful six weeks.
We're in the customer's houseand there's dust everywhere.
And even though you told themdust is going to be everywhere,
they complained that dust iseverywhere.
We've flooded a couple houses.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
About six weeks on site, not counting the pre sure.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, it's weeks, so we were turning that $20,000
over every day.
Yeah, and let's just assumeprofit margins are the same.
They're close.
Why were we doing theremodeling?
Doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense.
So we went just said one daywe're gonna stop doing it.
And people would keep callingus hey, I need this remodel done
.
No, we had learned that hardwork.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
No in the beginning we were felt get bad previous
customers or referral.
Like gosh, are we just?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
yes, then you're afraid you're losing money,
you're afraid you're giving upmoney.
So I got the money.
Y'all hire you whatever youwant and you're.
And it was so hard to turn thatmoney down at first, but it was
the most empowering, freeingthing we ever did was say no,
because now, with roofing, wehave one material vendor, we
have a dumpster vendor and wehave a crew.
That's it.
(29:20):
When you're a GC, you have 20vendors.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
No doubt.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You're in the customer's house, Everything's
going awry.
You know it can be done well.
We just weren't doing it well.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
You, everything's going awry.
You know it can be done.
Well, we just weren't doing it.
Well, you know, there's twothings specifically said that I
think really stand out.
One is learn the word no.
Somebody told me one time thisis really that a big impact on
me.
They said, because I'm a yesguy too, I like this.
But yeah, we'll figure it out,we'll do it, no problem.
Well, you've never learned howto do it, we'll figure it out.
And they said every time yousay yes to one thing, you're
saying no to a thousand others.
(29:51):
And I was like oh.
I hate saying no, and saying yesactually means saying no,
because you can't actually doeverything.
There's only so many hours aday on the seven days in a week
and so you do have to decidelike what am I uniquely suited
for and, from a businessperspective, what keeps the
money in the bank?
What has good cash flow?
(30:12):
What has good profitability?
What are we good at?
What creates good systemization?
All that, in other words, likehammer on the job, is actually
sometimes a limiting factor Ifyou want to be by.
(30:37):
That is it's like you know I Iwear a lot of different hats and
one of them I get to work atthe church of 1122 and help with
all kinds of things marketing,communication, strategy, media,
all kinds of stuff and my bossthere, who's the first boss I've
ever had, ironically my wholelife was talking about something
I was like well, I can just doit if I need to.
And he's like, no, don't letpeople know you can do that.
And he meant it from aperspective of I need you to
lead the thing, I don't need youto do the thing, and those are
(30:57):
very different things and that'svery hard for me because I do
actually a jack of all trades,master of none.
I'm not the person that shouldbe designing the thing, even if
I can do that better than mostregular people.
I'm not the person that shouldbe toting the thing, even if I
(31:18):
can do it better than mostregular people, because I'm not
as good as the person who's theexpert at it and really does it
well, and I've had to learn bothof those things really big,
with people that are listening.
Those are good lessons to takeaway.
Learn to say no to the rightthings.
Learn to say yes to the rightthings.
Know when you say yes, you sayno to a thousand others, and
sometimes the ability to do thething is actually a limiting
factor.
It's also helpful, I mean,because you know what it should
(31:41):
be and what it isn't.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I think one of the most dangerous things you
can say is I'll just do that.
Yeah, just do that.
And anytime I catch myself inthe field doing something, I
regret it For almost exclusive ahundred percent, a hundred
percent regret.
Like why am I here?
This is a waste of my time.
I could have paid someone to dothis and saved a ton of time.
So my, my goal is to alwayssolve a problem without me being
(32:09):
the solution to that problem,like find other ways to do
whatever that task is that needsto be done, that sure I could
go solve it, but it's going totake me three or four hours, I'm
going to be hot and sweaty, I'mgoing to be pissed off.
Who can I get to go do this?
And every time I end up goingto do it, I'm upset with myself,
and when I get someone else todo it, I am so relieved that I
did 100%.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I read this book not that long ago by a guy named Dan
Sullivan, called who, not how,and it makes me think about what
you're talking about there,which is a lot of times we think
how am I going to get thisthing done?
But the right question to ask,especially as a leader, is who
can help me get this thing done?
And I've definitely been, Istill do.
I mean, 26 years later I still.
I'm like well, let me just doit.
(32:49):
But I also think from a teammember's perspective, if you
hear your leader or your bosssay I'll just do it, that's like
the worst thing they could sayto you.
Like if I say to somebody, it'slike the insult just give it to
me, I'll do it.
What I mean is you're clearlynot getting it done, so and I'm
not, I'm not bothered by it,like I can carry more, give it
to me.
And that's not good.
It's also moderately arrogantas the leader to just make that
(33:12):
assumption and it's better tojust let people do their jobs.
I read this other book I forgotwhat it was called but one thing
that stood out to me they werereally talking about kids, but I
think it relates to teammembers too, and they said one
of the worst things you can dofor a child member is to take
their task.
In other words, if it'ssomething that they should do,
you should let them do it, and Ithink that's true for team
(33:33):
members as much as it is kids.
Which is let them do it.
It might be a little slower, itmight not be exactly what you'd
hoped for, but the only waythey can learn, which is the
only way they can get better,which is the only way the
company can get better, yeah,more reps.
(34:03):
For sure, keep doing.
My, told a guy on the way here,one of our sales guys.
Yes, quote it, it's more reps.
The more reps you do, theeasier this is going to get for
in the business that maybe isn'tthere yet, that you're working
towards.
Like, what is the thing nowthat you're working towards,
that you kind of hope for forthe future?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I think for me and I think for KO2, our conversations
, that company that can runitself without my hour-by-hour
direct input, all day, 40 hoursa week.
I think I heard it for you Iwant to get to a point where I
want to be 20% in the businessand then take 80% and be working
(34:37):
on other special projects likeworking for the church or going
on mission trips or doing someother impactful things, like
getting more involved with theBuilders Care Association that
I'm on the board of and he's thepresident of the NRFSA up here
in the Northeast border area,being more involved in some of
those things that I think couldjust be more or help be
(35:01):
fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, and I've been re-homing that we need to grow
the business and not be ascritical to the day-to-day grind
, empowering other people to dothe things that we do on a
day-to-day basis.
I think that's the next stepfor great, I think.
I think right now we areprobably the limiting factors,
for sure, and we have to getcomfortable getting out of that,
and it's probably it'llprobably mean hiring someone in,
(35:22):
so then that that year it's afinancial thing.
Sure, you know that that we gotto work through, so I so we't
like we want to grow every year.
We don't.
We're not really good atsitting down and defining what
that number is, but year overyear we've grown, that's how I
feel about it.
So there's a big thing right nowwith private equity coming into
(35:44):
buying home services companies,including roofing companies.
It's slowed down a little bitand we're not big enough to be
attractive to a company likethat and it's really not our
goal.
But I do look through it.
Look through the lens of beingsellable, and here's why To be
sellable, somebody has to beable to buy the business and the
(36:06):
business basically run right.
So you need systems and youneed management and stuff.
If Peter and I are the business, it's not.
So you need systems and youneed management and stuff.
If Peter and I are the business, it's not sellable.
That's right, and right now,peter and I are the business.
Yes, so nobody could come inand buy HW and run it.
They'd have to jump in and doexactly what we do.
You know which a lot of timewe're in the day-to-day grind.
So what I'm wanting to do isnot because we want to sell, but
(36:32):
just because if we are sellable, then we've solved a lot of
these other problems.
Right, and then the options Tand I have options and we have a
little bit more freedom.
So that's where we're headed.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah, I think it's probably about the same time.
As far as years in business, Istarted thinking to myself.
I was actually at an event andsomebody asked me no-transcript,
(37:12):
like what needs to be true inorder for it to last 60 years,
you know, or indefinitely.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
So the school bus test.
I can't remember which authorcame up with that.
It was Simon Sennett, I mean,it said it to me.
Yeah, I've heard the same thing.
So like I get nervous if he andI are in the truck together or
we're going to an event togetheror something like that, we're
on an airplane going to SanDiego for an OS morning.
It's like man, if we both godown.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So really we've been waiting.
Sure, that's all Right, ourwives are taking, because the
T-Roc figured it out.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But the T calls parts .
So now, what is a major burdenon me?
In a positive and a negativeway, it's like we have this
whole team around us now.
We're up to 20 employees,roughly Roughly 20.
19, something like that.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
They could take the four our wives out, take four
out.
So we're even roughly 17.
Sure Lives that depend.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
And those families and they're my families now
depend on us every day andthat's a tremendous burden.
If something were have happenedto us, the, the company you
know, will fulfill.
Yeah, I'm sure they couldclobble along and or or another
roofer would come in and takeour contracts or whatever, I
don't know.
But all the employees gonereally has a place to work
(38:23):
exactly, and that's the heartbehind solving the problem.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
So I read a book.
I don't mention a lot of books,but when I say I read a book, I
never read a book.
I listened.
I listened to it, but Ilistened to a book called
Clothwork by a guy named MikeMichalowicz and it was actually
before I took this RV trip backin 2020 that you were talking
about earlier and he talks aboutthe idea of building the
business in a way where you cantake 30 days off and the reason
he says 30 days it makes a tonof sense.
(38:46):
And he meant 30 days with nowork, like I'm not answering a
phone call, not returning a text, I'm returning an email.
I am invisible for 30 days.
And the reason he said 30 daysit makes a ton of sense is that
a business goes through a fulllife cycle in 30 days.
You know in the same that youwould a full year In 30 days.
You close new deals, startprojects, you finish projects,
you collect money, you pay money.
(39:06):
Everything generally has tohappen in a 30-day cycle for the
most part.
So if you can get through 30days, arguably the business can
actually get through whatever.
I also changed my language and Iwent from saying I want the
business to survive without meand I started saying I want the
business to thrive without me.
I want to show up and people belike what do you do here?
You know, and I'm not sayingwe're completely there, but
(39:30):
we're really really close tothat now, because I probably
only spend maybe 20 or 30% of mytime in the business at this
point and arguably other peoplecould replace that if they
really needed to, even onpodcasts, like Logan, our new
director of growth.
He's awesome at podcasts.
He could do them without me.
I just like to do them.
But that about changed mymindset on it and at first I
(39:52):
felt a little I don't know likeselfish, that I was going to
take 30 days off.
But he reminds you in the bookthat it's not just about you
having a vacation, because infact, most entrepreneurs really
struggle to take 30 days off.
It's actually very hard.
Well, not that hard.
I'm like let me get back towork Like I like to work.
You know I might have a problem,but it's because it's for the
(40:13):
good of the team, because now ifI'm extremely hit by the bus,
there will be some collateraldamage of that, but the business
could carry on.
It is fully capable at thispoint of operating, I think, for
a very long time without mehere at all.
And part of that's actuallyreally hard, like as you work
towards it, because part of ityou're like, sometimes you like
(40:36):
show up at a thing and you'relike what am I even doing here,
like you don't even need meanymore.
And so you actually have tolike kind of redefine your own
purpose and your own value,because as entrepreneurs and as
business owners, so much of ourvalue is tied up in you know,
what we do every day, like asyour kids grow up, you're like
wait, you don't need me to dothat for you.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
I don't you Like in an office space.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
When those consultants come in, they'll say
exactly what did you say you doaround here?
That's the current situation inthe US government, but that's
what we want Right?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Your teacher will send you an email saying give us
five things you did last week.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
That's right, or it's like when we were on the office
, where gosh, who was it?
It was like Jim and Michael, Ithink, had split the role of
manager they're like co-managersand then they got bought out by
other companies.
She's like so, let me get thisstraight, two of you do one
person's job.
I was like what the hell?
And they're like yeah,basically, well, as I'm landing
(41:33):
the plane for the show, one ofthe things I love to hit on a
little bit is kind of wherewe're headed anyway, which is
work-life balance.
What does that even mean, andI'd love to hear from both of
you.
What does that even mean to you, number one, and how has that
changed through differentseasons?
You both got wads, you both gotkids, and you're probably both
a little bit of workaholics,like I am, and so how has that
(41:55):
been defined for you over time,and what does it look like
currently for you as life?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I follow the.
I think it's Dave Ramsey'sphilosophy on that and maybe you
told me or I heard it at aRamsey conference is it's?
There is no work like that.
It's true, there's no suchthing.
And when people say that, well,you really don't know what your
job is.
It's a blender, that's right.
Or it's seasons, so I ebb andflow out of seasons where I can.
(42:27):
I can knock off at five, orsometimes I'm up there till
eight o'clock at night and beck,you gotta cook dinner.
I ain't gonna make it, you'lleat without me.
I'll see you later, you know.
But I try not to make that thenorm, that that can't be the
norm.
You're gonna have otherproblems, right.
So you can.
You can ebb and flow there.
To me there's not a balance,it's, it's a blender, it's all
mixed in together and I justlike, I'm trying to be focused
(42:47):
on being present where I'm at inthat moment.
Right, if I'm, I want to leavehere after this, I'm going to go
coach eight you girls softballand I'm going to be focused on
that moment.
You know, I think that's thekey is being present in the
moment.
Now, if you are working 60, 70hours a week, you're working on
Saturday, you're working onSunday.
That, like that can't besustainable.
(43:09):
But even like like Ramsey'sreference is really good when
that, when it's conferenceseason, it's bananas.
You know he wasn't going to thekids events and that was just
understood.
But when it wasn't conferenceseason, like he was fully
involved, you know, but when itwasn't conference season, like
he was fully involved, you know.
So that's where that's the wayI try to approach things is be
involved when you're there,don't I don't always do it well
(43:30):
me either.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
It's good, let's say for us, my wife and I.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
She worked up until this last year and it was tough
then because she had a job thatwas demanding I I didn't have
one and that would cause someconflict if, but you know, we're
like we've got to do it, it'sjust got to get done.
Sometimes it is what it is andso we've gotten used to that.
But a lot like what Caleb'ssaying is anymore I just try to
I do what I have to do and theneverything else.
(43:56):
If I don't need to do it today,then I won't and I will spend
time with family or I try to bepresent.
But, like he said, I don't havea timeframe that I work.
I will check my emails in themorning, have coffee at the wife
and I'll answer what needsanswered.
But it's a slow roll for mebecause I work from the house
now, unless I have a meeting togo to or somewhere I have to be,
and then it's just understood.
(44:17):
But now she doesn't work.
So it buys me some flexibility,like today's a bad day.
Today I'm working all night.
Maybe I didn't get going tillnine in the morning, so I try to
give back on different sides ofthe day when it's, when the
time is there, so that when thetime isn't, I have to do what I
got to do, cause now that I'mdoing the income, it's like I
got to execute, you know, but Istill got to make sure she has
(44:40):
time, the family has time, so wetry to make sure it's on the
calendar when the kids' hockeygames are their flag football
and so that I'm like, okay, Ican't overbook here, and you
know.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
What entrepreneurship owning a business does give you
if you've played your cardsright.
So, peter Mitchell, we workfully remote now we don't have
an office, so I'd go with mywife to pick the girls up.
We got these little electrickites with two seaters on them.
We go pick the girls up fromthe bus stop a lot of days.
If you're doing a regularnine-to-five job, you don't get
(45:12):
to do that.
We're taking this trip out westfor 30 days.
Now part of my ability to dothat is I got a partner that can
manage things while I'm gone,sure, manage things while I'm
gone, sure, but if you have aregular nine to five, you can't
do that.
So there are benefits to beingan entrepreneur and that.
That, that kind of work-likebalance, if you will, whatever,
if you want to call it that,that you do get to go do some
things.
I'm coaching my daughter'ssoftball team.
(45:34):
My other daughter is in golf.
So on days that she's on thecourse it's it's before the
working day is over I'm outthere walking the course with
her, you know.
So now I do get some phonecalls about business.
You know, guys, on the job,something's gone wrong.
Hey, what do you want us to do.
I'll take that call while I'mout there, while she's here, or
something you know.
But it it does afford you somethings like that where you can
(45:57):
be present with your kids, where, like I'm there in the morning,
you know when they're gettingready not not a lot of dads get
to do that.
They're out by 7 am orsomething you know.
So I work out early, I'm in genat 6, home by 7 15 and drinking
coffee and making sure they'regetting ready and you know
dealing with all that.
So they're minor.
You know, coming up on 11 and 8, you remember those years where
(46:19):
it's like a madhouse in themorning, like somebody's crying,
somebody's tears all over theplace.
They can't find their shoes,nothing matches.
You have holes in your jeans.
It's like what are you doingwith holes in your jeans, you
know?
But it's fun to be able toexperience that and be present
for your kids and we're bothgetting to experience that and I
think it's one of theadvantages of entrepreneurship
(46:40):
If you do it right and you bepresent when you need to be
present.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
And at the end of the day, you have earned that
because you were willing toendure the hard days in the
beginning.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, in the beginning it wasn't like that,
right?
No, you know we're on the otherside of it, that's right, you
know in some ways.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
But that's why I think, that's why I love doing
this show and having theseconversations, because I think a
lot of times, especially on theInternet, all people show is
the glamour of the other side.
Yeah, after you've already,like, endured the valleys and
not that there's not morevalleys ahead, because there's
always.
If you're on the mountaintop,there's always a valley
somewhere.
But at the same time, I thinkpeople they over glamorize the
(47:17):
reality of it and it's like gosh, almost nothing good doesn't
come with some hard work.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, you know you can't be watching what you see
on Instagram and all that stuff.
That is not real business.
It's like getting in somerelationships with some business
owners that are in your fieldlocally and talk to them and
you're going to realize realquick they are all having the
exact same problems you have andyou talk to them to okay, how
(47:43):
do you deal with that?
Because I'm in that right now.
You know what do you do to helpthat customer or something like
that, and it gives you ideas.
It also gives you some insightinto what your competition is
doing.
So we're I got a few guys thatare roofers that I'm also
friends with and they've beenreally open with me because
they've been doing it for longerabout how they handle things
and stuff.
So talking to those guys andhaving someone that you can talk
(48:03):
to like that is super helpfulas well.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, getting people, getting community like that is
just huge yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
I was going to say part of what I do, like I've had
some guys ask me, so you go.
You know you might leave in theafternoon, go shoot for a
little bit or something, butyeah, but also be here till nine
o'clock at night if somethingneeds done, Like.
But, yeah, but also be here tillnine o'clock at night.
If something needs done, likeyou will be paid on a payroll,
payroll will get done.
You've never, never missed acheck, right, and some nights if
you were to actually clock inand see when I time taped, time
(48:32):
stamped some emails through.
Oh, he was.
So I give it back when it hasto come back and there's just
when shit needs done.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
You gotta get it done .
I had a guy one time say to mehe said it was on my team many
years ago he's like my wifedoesn't even know what you do,
and I was like for one, that's areal chicken thing to say.
Why don't you just say that youdon't know what I do?
And number two what I do ismake sure you have a paycheck in
the bank account every Friday.
That's what I do.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
We've had two employees that are now former
employees say that they boughtour trucks and, like they, you
know.
So, peter and I, we startedthis business for their personal
trucks.
Right, beat the crap out of theshirt.
300,000 miles, wore them out.
They weren't company trucks.
We didn't get money back.
That's right, that's right.
So we are.
(49:18):
Finally, we're both with over300,000 miles on our trucks.
We go buy new trucks, right,well, the company's doing better
, we can afford it.
Sure, we're going to Bose ourFord, actually, yeah, and you
buy new trucks.
And then you hear an employeesay, oh, all my sales bought
that truck for you.
Well, that didn't last long.
Another employee said the samething and nobody's there for the
(49:44):
sleepless nights, themedication for anxieties, the,
the ambience, so that you cansleep through the night.
Like, well, for me here, for me, when it right, yeah, deal with
attorneys and lawsuits.
And like when it rains, I mean,I just my anxiety goes to the
roof when it rains, because Iknow new customers are gonna
call, but I know we've got someroofs out there with some
mistakes.
Sure, let's say we put on 200roofs a year.
We don't put on 200 perfectroofs a year and a nail, one
(50:09):
nail of the 8,000 that we put ona roof is in the wrong spot and
that's a leak.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Right, so I know we're going to get a call when
we get these severe rainstorms,so my anxiety goes to the roof.
Those guys don't have to dealwith that right now.
So it's infuriating when peopledon't understand.
They think you know.
They call it like an overnightsuccess.
Right, Well, you weren't therefor the prior 10 or 15 years.
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
overnight.
That's the other thing DaveRandy says.
You bust your tail for 20 yearsand then you're an overnight
success, right?
A couple of things you saidthat I've loved to call out as
we just kind of land the plane,one is just being present in the
moment, being where your feetare.
There've been plenty of timeswhere my wife has said to me uh,
you're here, but you're notreally here.
And I've been there.
That's a that's a toughcritique, you know, and it's
(50:56):
true, and it's true, it's true,it's true, and it's and it's's.
But she also understands theburden of it.
All you know and has and hasstuck with me for, as of today,
22 years, and so I've really I'mtrying to still get better at
this.
I think it will just be aperpetual effort.
I don't think it will ever bean achieved thing of just be
where your feet are.
The other you talked about, orwhat y'all really was, this idea
(51:17):
of like seasons seasons ofbusiness, seasons of life,
seasons of family, seasons ofbusiness, seasons of life,
seasons of family.
I always say that the greatestcause of all relational strife,
whether it's marriages orfriendships or partnerships or
clients, is misplacedexpectations.
If I expect this and you expectthat and those things are too
far apart.
We have a problem, andcommunication is the bridge that
connects those expectations.
You all both basically saidthis, which is you know, there
(51:40):
are nights where you go.
I just got to stay late.
I'm going to be here forhowever long, and I'm going to
do my best to get home when Ican and thankfully, like I'm
married to somebody who'swilling to go, all right, I got
it, like you know do what youneed to do, but it can't be
every night.
If it's every night.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah, if you're the sole breadwinner at home, I
think you are right.
Yeah, so I am.
Now my wife went part-time as apharmacist so I'm, you know,
same with his wife Sure Retired,if you want to call that.
So we're the sole breadwinners.
And so now my wife understands,because she hears the
conversation.
I've worked from home now, soshe hears.
She's like my goodness, how areyou doing so?
Like you know, when you're thesole breadwinner, sometimes you
(52:24):
do have to step out of a familything.
I got to deal with this rightnow because there's a lot of
money on the line.
If I don't, this could gohorribly awry.
If I don't deal with this rightnow Again, time and a place,
and hopefully if you'recommunicating with your wife
well, she understands that andif you're not abusing it,
because you can't abuse it andeverything you have to step out,
(52:44):
for you know that's not goodeither.
But you know it's a blender.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
There's not a lot of that.
It needs a little more spinach.
It needs a little more icecream.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
I've been on vacations where Caleb's called
me, said we got to pull the plugon a guy and I had to.
I gotta pull off what we'redoing and log in and pull the
thought or doubt, you know, lockthem out of all the things.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Well, I said we were going to go 20 or 30 minutes and
we're well over that time.
That's usually the sign of agood podcast and a good
conversation.
I talk to you guys all day.
It's been awesome to watch yougrow and scale and learn and
improve over time and strugglethrough hard days and get better
and better and better, and soI'm proud to know you and be a
friend and thankful to have youas a client and get to work
together.
(53:23):
We don't get directly to workas much anymore, but it's been
really cool.
So thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, we're appreciating the partnership
with you guys.
Thanks for being here,no-transcript.
Have you ever started a business and wondered how
you're going to get it all done?
Some of you have a partner,maybe you don't.
In this episode, I'm going totalk to the guys from HW
Contracting, talking about theearly years when they got laid
off from their job and then theyhad to start a new thing.
They had to endeavor thisentrepreneurial effort and never
done it before.
They created a partnership,which is also really difficult.
So we talk about all the nittygritty, the things that work,
(00:22):
the things that differ did it,and how they have not just
survived but thrived over thelast 15 years, and done that
with families and all the otherthings that go along with life.
Without any further ado, here'smy interview with the guys from
HW Contracting.
Hey guys, welcome to the show.
Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Richard, hey, how's it going man?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
So we've known each other for a long time.
I don't even know how longwe've known each other for a
long time, I don't even know howlong, how long you and I go
back to middle school.
That's true, that's a very longtime.
I'd like to not admit how longit was.
I just did a podcast a littlewhile ago with a guy who was 85
and he kept calling me a youngman and I was like I appreciate
that because it's not how Ialways feel, but y'all have been
in business together for howlong?
When did people start thebusiness?
(01:08):
There's a lot of risk involved.
It's like I'm leaving somethingand something will leap.
Some people it's like they,they, they lost a job or they
had major life change like let'sjust try this new thing.
And some people are just likewell, I don't know, we got this
dream, was tried out.
So what was y'all's kind oforigin story in that process?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
This was not a dream, it was a necessity.
We both got laid off from thesame company.
We worked for a largemultifamily builder in
Jacksonville up and down thesoutheast here, and the economy
tanked in the early 2000s and wewere casualty with that, and so
it was a choice to get out ofconstruction, find a career in
something else that wasavailable or start a business
(01:44):
and hopefully by the time theeconomy rebounded we had a
successful business or a stablebusiness.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Now, did either of y'all ever run a business before
that?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
No, so this was the first time and you know this far
along that Elizabeth seemed tohave swam.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
We didn't want to retool.
Neither of us wanted to go backto school, learn something
different.
We enjoyed what we were doingin construction and the type of
work we were doing qualified usto get our general contractor's
license, which in the tiers ofcontractor licenses that was at
the top.
So we were both able to getthat license and that allows us
to do any type of constructionand unlimited scope of
(02:20):
construction.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So, when you started the business I know now you
focus a ton on roofing, but whenyou started the business, what
was the focus of the things thatyou were doing?
Was it anything and everythingthat you could get your hands on
?
Or what was the?
What did you decide?
This is what we're going to do.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
First couple of years , yeah, it was anything that
would pay the bills, but theidea was custom builder, custom
remodel.
That was the goal and only itstarted working our way to that.
But yeah, the first year or twowas Whoever had something, it
would pay.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
We got a call one weekend.
Somebody needed shipping cratesbuilt and they had a budget and
they told us what it was and wesaid yeah we'll do that.
Built shipping crates.
Our first job was wood rotsiding repair.
I think was our first job andthe dream was, like Peter said,
custom homes, custom remodels,that we got into commercial
(03:07):
build outs, you know, helped youguys build out your space and,
yeah, that's what we thought wewere going to do.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Our dream was to build, you know, stuff that you
see in magazines and that wasthe the direction we were going
so talk about, you know, thoseearly years, especially people
you know glamorizeentrepreneurship, the business
ownership, as this, like you'regonna have freedom and you're
gonna have money and you'regonna have purpose, and I find a
lot of times you actually endup with none of them in the
(03:33):
early years.
You don't have any money andyou don't have any freedom and
you don't really know what yourpurpose is.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yeah, there's I'm not gonna say there's nothing
glamorous about it.
It gets better if you, if youstick with it, but in the early
years there was nothingglamorous.
I mean, you know they say blendsweat and tears, arguing
vehemently uh, with a, we got a,we're partners, yeah, so it's
like like a marriage and andkind of fleshing things out and
(03:58):
stuff like that.
You know, not making enoughmoney, what are we going to do?
Arguing about that?
It is not pretty.
Should you go back and work forsomebody?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
else.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, do berserker.
Bad decision and at one pointwe were offered our old jobs
back.
That company came out of therecession and they actually came
out really well.
They're a great company.
They did offer the jobs backand we decided to stick with it,
which I think it's like as faras entrepreneurship goes.
We can talk more about this, ifyou want to later.
Sticking with it is the hardpart, but if you stick with it
(04:30):
and you do it right, there ismore happiness on the other side
.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, I mean that's true for both of our stories.
I mean I remember plenty ofyears where I just thought, oh,
now we're going to make thiswork, and that was without the
stress of a partner.
But I think partnership'sinteresting because, well, dave
Ramsey always says partnershipssink ships.
But you know, we all admit it,we're the rarities.
They say it.
But at the same time there isalso a little bit of like.
(04:56):
I would think I'm just guessing, because I've never had a
partner like a shared burden.
You know where it's like.
At least at least you're notthe only one who knows what the
pain is that you're currentlyenduring, enduring where nobody
else, when you run it solo,nobody else really knows what
you're actually going to do.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I think there's a lot to that.
If either one of us had to doit by ourselves, I think we'd
probably shut it down and gowork somewhere else.
Maybe not now that we've got anestablished company, but the
beginning, I tell you, when you,when they offers our jobs back,
we like talk to each other.
I was like, if you go, I got togo, or vice versa.
I'm not going to do this bymyself.
Because of that same sharedburdens, shared experience.
(05:34):
We're fortunate that weactually can do each other's job
, but we actually thrive untilhe suffers fears that he does
one thing and that's kind of hislane and I do the other things
so talk about that, and how longdid it take you identify the
fact that you do do differentthings better in your own
leagues?
I think early audits kind ofblended we worked together for
(05:54):
four years prior to starting ourcompany, so we already knew
each other pretty well.
So it didn't take a terriblylong time to start flushing out
the lanes, but I maybe the firstfour or five years we did
probably have some overlap andsome toe stepping and things
which caused some headachesalong the way when we switched
to do as just roofing, it gotreally clarified.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I run the field, peter runs the back office.
But to your point earlier aboutentrepreneurs and maybe it
being a little easier if youhave a partner, in some ways it
is.
It's not as lonely.
I think entrepreneurship can bevery lonely when you have a
partner.
It's not quite as lonely.
You have someone that you cango to and even now if I'm having
a problem in the field, I callthem.
(06:36):
Hey, here's the problem we'rehaving.
It's going to cost us somemoney.
How do you think we should workthis out?
So there's some benefits tothat.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Right, yeah, because for me, you know, having never
had a partner, I would arguethat my wife is kind of like my
partner, but she's, I mean, sheis certainly in life but she's
not in the business because shedoesn't have any context for
whatever I tell her.
You know what I'm saying, andso.
But it was interesting becauseyou kind of compared
partnerships to marriage becausethere's a little bit of that,
but.
So, but it was interestingbecause you kind of compared
(07:05):
partnerships to marriage becausethere's a little bit of that,
but then you're also alsomarried.
You know, not each other,obviously, but, and so there's
all these dynamics going on.
There's real marriage, there'skids, there's business.
There's a stress that actuallyhaving to make enough money to,
you know, not just pay, becausethe other thing is there's two
of you, so you've got to.
Basically business has got toproduce twice as much.
You know, even in the earlydays it's being enough to even
just keep your life to your ownhouses Versus.
(07:27):
For me at least, I just had todo my own thing make enough for
one person for a while, thenthat's good enough.
You know one family.
So talk about that dynamic, alittle bit of like the at home
life and how that overflows withthe business life and kind of
things that have gone well,maybe even some things that
haven't.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
So for a majority of the time I have not brought the
work stuff home to my wife withlike vent to her and stuff like
that.
I don't know if it's good.
I think that I think in a lotof ways it's good.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I've started to talk to her more recently about
things and I think I probablyshould have been doing that more
along the way.
What I didn't want to do isbring the crap home and burden
her with that.
So I internalize a lot of thatand maybe there's some pros and
some cons with that.
I've started to kind of let herin more on those things
(08:19):
recently and now actually she'sher, Our wives are actually
employees of the company, soI've got her working on a few
projects and stuff like that.
So early on I internalized alot of it.
Maybe shouldn't have, but Ididn't want to bring a bunch of
work crap home.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Well, it's interesting because a lot of
people say you shouldn't do that, you shouldn't bring work crap
home, basically, and I'm anexternal processor so it's very
hard for me to hold things in,and if I do, it doesn't last
very long and it usuallyexplodes.
So claren generally has likeheard all the things all along.
The danger is, I think, whenyou at least for me,
historically, when I've onlyshared the negative things,
(09:00):
especially about when there'speople problems, and then she's
like, well, I don't know whythat person still works here,
like just fire them.
I'm like, babe, it's not thateasy, there's a lot of other
things involved.
She's like, I know, but you'realways complaining about them
and I'm like what's?
your problem Sometimes.
I usually see it as it takes melong enough to figure it out,
(09:22):
or as a reminder that sometimesthere right.
So I wonder about I mean, howhas that worked out for both of
y'all?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
So for me my wife and I.
We've always shared.
She worked up until recently.
Within the last year she had ajob, so she would come home and
tell me her headaches and hertale of the headaches.
And I mean it caused problemsat times, but mainly because
just us as people humans, youknow we sometimes say something
and then causes an argument oversomething, but then we just had
(09:50):
to work it out.
But we never really had aproblem sharing.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
And if it caused problems we just figured it out
Like all right well, maybe youdidn't do as well together in
business partnership in theearly years, that maybe you have
learned over 15 years that youdo a little bit better job of
now.
What are some of?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
those like things that maybe didn't go well in
early years that you've now kindof learned how to do better.
I mean, I think communicate alot of it boils down to
communication and identifyingthe lanes that you're going to
work in.
When there was overlap, I thinkthere was probably the most
problems and then you know kindof deciding.
They are, you know, caleb'sgoing to be, you know kind of
the operations side of thebusiness and Peter's going to be
running all the admin side, theback end side, insurance,
(10:38):
contract payments, allfinancials, all that stuff you
know, and they very rarelycrossed these days.
In the early days they crosseda lot and we weren't making
enough money and that causesmore problems.
But I think maybe just nothaving clear, clearly
communicated roles andresponsibilities probably led to
(11:00):
a lot of grief in the earlyyears.
We had to hire a consultant tohelp us iron out like a meteor.
She was like a combination of atherapist, a business coach, a
psychologist, and got in a roomand literally argued it out and
she helped us work.
Sometimes you have to work.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, I think it's establishing those lanes and
eventually we just kind of ittook us a few years to spray
that but we finally workedthrough and had those lanes.
Like I said, we both can stepin and help the other one do
things when they're traveling orneed, but you still have kind
of like yeah, I would say it'slike everything can't be
everybody's responsibility,right, and the example it's even
(11:40):
when you with team members.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You know, one of my biggest pet peeves is when
people take a task and assign itto multiple people and I'm like
you can't do that.
You can't do that.
In the same way that you can'ttell, you can't say hey, kids go
unload the dishwasher.
And I'm like who's going tounload the dishwasher?
When I say that, the answer isno, no one's going to do it.
Why?
Because of it.
I thought she was going to doit, but it's for her day.
(12:02):
Well, I did it yesterday andarguably, us as adults aren't
that much different than kids,like nine times out of ten, and
I don't think we should treatour employees like they're our
children.
That's not the same thing.
But as people, that is kind ofthe same outcome and I'm always
like, regardless of how high upan organization is, even at a
true partnership level, I thinkknowing like what are my key
(12:22):
responsibilities?
What are the things that, if Iwon't do anything else this week
, what are the three to fivethings that I have to do to keep
this thing going?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, for sure, and I think what I think about is, as
we grow, as we've gotten bigger, the dollars get bigger, the
responsibilities get bigger andwe start doing more projects.
Identifying what I don't thinkwe've done a great job of is
like identifying a key.
Who's going to run this segment, and that's probably something
(12:50):
I think we need to get better atis all right, this is your
responsibility.
You're going to run this, andif you need my help, let me know
and whether it's he and I, orassigning the team member to do
that and then making themresponsible for it and then just
following up.
I think, as you get on inbusiness, those roles have to be
more and more clear, more andmore defined.
Yeah, like you said, if youtell two people to go do it,
it's probably not going to getdone.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Well, even like for Chris and I I mean, we've been
working together for as long asy'all have actually for 15 years
15th year, which is crazy andwhile we're not technically
partners on paper still operatesa lot like that.
You know, and I know for melike my job in general is care
(13:33):
for vision and culture, speak onstages, which includes stuff
like this, and keep money in thebank, and if I'm doing those
three things, then I'm doing myjob.
And he's got a whole list of afew things care for clients,
care for the team and go sellnew things.
You know, if he's doing thosethree things, he's doing his job
for the team and go sell newthings.
If he's doing those threethings, he's doing his job.
That said, either one of uscould do the other person's role
on any given Sunday if weneeded to, and we're happy to.
(13:54):
I want him to go have avacation and be with his family
and hang out and not have toworry about answering his emails
and phone, and vice versa.
I want to have that backupbecause I think a lot of people
neglect that in business,especially solopreneurs.
They don't have that likebackup, because I spent gosh
probably a decade, you knowwhere.
I had no backup.
(14:15):
I had no.
Well, while I destroyed it inany way to fight with, I also
had nobody to like go.
Hey, can you just handle thiswhile I'll take a break for a
minute.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I mean, I think trust is the other thing.
Like we talked about, like ifyou don't have trust or someone
has violated the trust, that'swhere I think partnerships
really start to break down.
I trust Peter intimately, likeour families are friends, Like I
don't have to worry about thefinancial side of the business
because I trust that he's makingthe right decisions.
(14:44):
And even if there was a wrongdecision, like, hey, all right,
you know you made it, let's talkabout how we're going to do
something different next time.
Same thing with the field.
Hey, that may be a bad call,but we haven't violated trust.
And I think that is the keycomponent.
If you don't trust your partneror your key guy, that is going
(15:04):
to lead to a lot of heartaches.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
That's why a lot of entrepreneurship partnerships
fail, I mean we both know theother one's going to do what is
right and what's best, Not onlyfor the customer, for the
company.
Sure, Because we follow.
You know we have an ethos, wehave a moral guy.
You know we're both Christiansand we both are very strong and
(15:30):
we're like what's the rightthing to do?
Whether it's going to cost us alot of money or not, what's the
right thing to do and that'swhat we try to make all of our
decisions on is, at the end ofthe day, if we do the right
thing, it's not going to sink mybattleship.
One wrong thing that might costme even 10,000 bucks.
We had a brief leak and theright thing was to fix something
.
Guy's like how much is it goingto cost you?
I was like man, I don't know.
I was like I don't know, we'regoing to fix it and I'll tally
(15:51):
it in.
We'll figure out what we can dobetter next time.
That's right.
You learned some good lessons,though, with an $8 seven years
ago, and here we are still threetimes the size of the company.
So we just we do the rightthing and that's how we make our
decisions.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You generally can't be wrong if you're doing the
right thing for the customer.
Yeah, you know we could talkabout maybe there was multiple
right ways to handle it andmaybe we would prefer if you'd
done a different way.
But you can't fall.
I tell my team the same thing.
If you can't get ahold of me ifI'm in a meeting, I'm in a
podcast, phone's off.
Sure At your.
Your default is just do thebest thing for the customer and
(16:32):
I can't be mad at you, right?
Maybe, maybe I would have goneabout these situations, Just
like I can't be now.
We can maybe talk about adifferent way.
Now we can maybe talk about adifferent way.
We could have done it.
Maybe that would have cost usless money or something like
that, but I'll never fault youfor doing what you thought was
best for the customer.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Well, I always say too, I believe that part of a
leader's responsibility of ateam is to create a space where
people have the opportunity tofail, just not fail
catastrophically.
I don't want them to destroythemselves, I don't want them to
destroy the business, butthere's very few things that
will actually do that.
There are some and I want toput some guardrails on to
protect from those things.
But in general and again not tomake the kid analogy again, but
(17:13):
it's kind of like kids too it'slike, as kids grow up, you're
going to let that rope out alittle bit because they're going
to have to go figure it out ontheir own one day, and it's in
my best interest as a leader formy teams to be able to function
without me.
I think one of the mistakesthat tons of small businesses
make especially is that theowner just is completely
unwilling to even let the ropeout a little bit on people and
(17:35):
they just want to control somuch and then they're stressed
out, worn out, ready to quitbecause they work 80 plus hours
a week and have no other way todo it because they're not
willing to let their team makesome mistakes.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
So that's why I was not answering the phone, just
not itching to call.
If I'm in is to figure it out,and then you call back in 30, 40
minutes.
Hey, what'd you need?
I figured it Exactly.
It's the best.
What was your solution?
And then usually it's a goodone or you say hey, that was a
great, here's another optionnext time.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I might've done this, yeah, so what I'm trying to do
right now.
So me and my family are takinga trick out West in June.
We're going to do similar towhat you did.
I don't remember if you stayedconnected during that month.
Hell does.
You did not.
Okay, so I'm going to stayconnected.
Yeah, I'm going to run myportion of the business remotely
while we RV out West, similarto what you did.
So what I'm trying to teach theteam that kind of works directly
(18:25):
under me is my thought process,how I process problems.
Really, our job in construction, everything's a fire and our
job is problem solving.
Every day, for sure, every dayof the week, we're problem
solving.
So I'm trying to teach them,not the what, I'm trying to
teach them the why, why I thinkthrough things the way that I do
(18:46):
, so that they can learn mythought process.
And if they understand mythought process, hopefully they
end up with where I would haveended up.
So I'm not teaching the what asmuch as I'm teaching.
Here's the why I came to thisdecision and I'm actually, when
they call me with a problem,instead of me solving the
problem right now, I'm sayingokay, I know the answer to this.
(19:06):
What is your answer?
100.
Walk me through what is youranswer.
And when that doesn't work,what's your next thing?
And make them walk through.
That.
That's what I'm trying to donow, instead of solving every
problem, because if, if theyknow you'll solve every problem,
they'll just call you everytime absolutely.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, I think that's a great example is the best
thing to ask somebody when theybring your a problem is well,
what are you going to do aboutthat and what's your solution?
Speaker 3 (19:29):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
we should do, and I always tell people too.
One of the things I've learnedis my instinct in the early
years would be like don't dothat, do this instead.
I actually, if I think I have abetter idea, but their idea is
not a horrible one, I wouldalmost rather them do their idea
and I'm like let's just seewhat happens, because, number
one, it might actually be betterthan my idea.
(19:52):
Number one.
Number two you know, it's likeif I'm constantly having to
correct them, they might notwant to bring me a suggestion
and I would rather so.
I tell people all the time likedon't.
Number one, don't bring me aproblem without a potential
solution.
And number two I've heard ofthe analogy is like well,
somebody brings a monkey intoyour office.
They take it back out with them.
You know the monkey's theproblem.
(20:12):
So like don't leave your monkeyin my office, don't put a hand
grenade in and shut the door's.
Good as a whole, not just forme, because they then become
more valuable, not just for thecompany but for themselves, and
so I have the opportunity to paythem more because they're going
(20:33):
to take on more, which meansthe company could take on more.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, it's not for that as well.
Through that process, I've hada few instances where I ask them
hey, what's your plan?
How would you solve this?
And they come up with an ideathat I hadn't thought of.
That was actually better thanmy idea 100%.
That's when I'm like, okay,we're winning.
Now You're bringing me ideasthat I hadn't thought of, so,
thank you, keep doing that.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, I mean, when you get the right people in the
right seats, that's what they do, you know.
I mean there's plenty of peopleon our team now that are so
elite compared to even me in theearly days, like Natalie who
helps run your accounts.
She's freaking sharp.
I mean that girl is so smart.
I don't want to denigrateanybody else in the office,
(21:18):
including myself, but she'sprobably the smartest one in the
office.
Her brain just works reallygood and she's able to come up
with ideas and she'll bringstuff up the table and I'll be
like, oh, I've not even thoughtof that.
Like that's a whole differentlevel of where we're.
You know where we're going.
And then you start to get startto see how companies really
scale beyond the founder.
(21:38):
In fact, a lot of companiesdon't see their like most
exponential growth until theoriginal founders replaced I
think about this this with, likeBozard Ford, for example.
Bozard and Lenny are goodfriends of ours, clients and
Bo's grandfather started BozardFord.
I think his grandfather yeah.
The original location was rightthere in St Augustine, off the
(21:59):
main drag, there right thatsmall little oh yeah, but if you
look at the transition, evenfrom Bo's dad to him, him and
Letty have exponentially grownit to a different level.
It's incredible.
You know from wherever it wasin the country.
Yeah, it's crazy, but but buthe has done it from a different
level of leadership and growthand fall than probably his dad
(22:21):
or granddad ever could have.
You know, and sometimes likegetting the right people and
helps a company grow beyond themSometimes.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
I heard somewhere that it could have been a Dave
Ramsey thing.
It could have been in any oneof those leadership things that
sometimes a company's limitingfactor is the boss or the owner.
A hundred percent is theircapacity to handle.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, you call it the leadership lid.
I mean, whoever the leader isis the limiting factor on the
business, and sometimes the bestthing you can do is actually
get out of the way or increaseyour own capacity and knowledge.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Yeah, so one thing I think we're trying to do better
now is create a team that,because we're in a no delusion
of him and I left, now thecompany stops For sure.
So we're trying to create acompany that that's not the case
.
And you know, we've got a fiveto 10 year plan where we want a
company that actually could runwithout our direct input on a
day to basis, and part of that,I think, is we're lucky, we're
in a male dominated kind ofindustry.
(23:12):
We have a couple girls thatwork with us and we could be
pretty straightforward with it,sure, and so when I, when they
come to me with their things, Ijust tell them like, look, solve
the problem.
It's like I pay you to solvethe problem, solve the problem.
It's like I pay you to solvethe problem, solve the problem.
And as long as you don't dothese things, I'll probably live
with it.
We'll go over it, we'll see ifthere was a better solution, but
(23:33):
just solve it.
Yeah, that's what I need you todo.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
For sure.
So you all have done a lot oftransition over the years you
talked about when you started.
You did all kinds of things.
Whatever will pay the bills, somost of it comes screwing some
light bulbs.
I'll come screwing light bulbsif I need to and then put some
money in the bank.
But now you've really narrowedthat focus.
You're like okay, now we'refocused on roofing.
So what was that transitionlike of going identifying the
(23:59):
products or services, if youwill, that you are best at, that
, you're most profitable at thatyou like the most, whatever it
may be?
How have you learned to narrowthe company down?
Because I see that a lot with alot of companies over time is
they start to narrow their focuswhen they find what works
really well.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
So we had to learn the word no.
That was very tough.
When you know him and I, wecame from the do side of
construction.
We were like you said.
Neither one of us wanted to owna business.
I think we might have it passedthrough our mind that we were
kind of forced into it.
And here we are, like we knewhow to do this stuff.
So it's hard to not go do it,sure Right, and to say no one in
(24:35):
the beginning for him and I sayno if, if it requires me to
lift a hammer, then I'm goingbackwards.
So that was the first step andfirst step.
And then, as we started addingpeople, they knew we had the
ability or that we came fromcertain types of construction
and learning and teaching them.
No, we have to say no becausewe are only going to focus on
this thing called roofing,because if we try to be
(24:55):
everything to everybody, we'rejust going to go backwards.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
We were failing miserably at trying to be
everything to everybody.
We were doing commercial buildouts, we're doing custom
remodels, we're trying to do newconstruction and we had our
first new construction ground-uphouse and we kind of stumbled
into roofing A good friend ofmine from church.
I was remodeling their kitchenand it went really well.
(25:19):
Good project, so let's say itwas $60,000 kitchen At the end
of it.
He was in the roofing businesson the distribution side and he
actually be great for yourpodcast.
He's an amazing guy.
He started coming to me sayingif you can sell a $60,000
kitchen, you can sell a 15,$20,000 roof.
And I'm like man.
I literally said I will neverbe a greasy roofer, never.
(25:42):
And he he pounded on me forover a year, year and a half,
and I can't remember what thecatalyst was.
We were having a bad remodel,the remodel was going badly and
we were having multiple bad jobs.
As we were trying to grow, wewere trying to bring people in
to manage our jobs.
Peter and I weren't on the jobevery day anymore.
(26:02):
We were losing control andneither one of us were happy
about that.
Customers aren't happy, we'reburning relationships and I said
, all right, I'm going to dip mytoe, leasing money.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
We're bleeding money To make it to stop.
We're like what it takes to fixit.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, I said I'm going to dip my toe into this
reefing water and just see whatit's about.
And I think right about thenHurricane Matthew hit.
So that was a big boost.
And literally one day whenPeter and I were in the office,
we were in one room together.
We were basically sitting sideby side.
Sure, peter said where's thiscash flow coming from?
So I think that's the roots man.
(26:38):
And he said we should do moreof that.
So then we were going to doboth, yeah, sure, and brought a
guy in to kind of run theroofing division and that went
horribly bad, poor stuff for us,and we made a horrible deal
with him, like he was going toget a huge cut.
I'm kind of glad he flaked.
(26:58):
We have like an up-offitsharing thing and it went really
south and it forced me to getinto the roofing side of our
business hands-on sure so nowI'm out selling roofs, I'm
managing the installs I'm, youknow, from ground up, you know
and I took over all theconstruction stuff from ground
(27:19):
up execution up, estimating andrunning the accounting.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
so while we were doing that, the roofs just kept
growing and the money just keptand I kept looking at how long
it took us to get to the dollarsof the other jobs.
I'm like faster turnaround.
I was like do you want to dothis anymore?
And he's like I don't reallywant to.
And I was like I really don'twant to run another construction
job.
I was like what if we just didroofing?
(27:43):
And another thing you heardthrough the grapevine a long
time ago.
Someone said pick something,get good at it, pick one thing
and get really good at it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
That's why we've done that and we've built all these
new roofs.
Yeah, and you know you couldmake an argument that there's
always construction, but youknow, set all that aside with a
roof.
Here's what did it for me.
Okay, typical bathroom remodel,let's say master bathroom
remodel.
Let's say, you know, full thing, gut and redo, reshape all that
(28:11):
.
Let's say it's $20,000.
We were doing a $20,000 roof inone day.
That $20,000 bathroom remodelwould take six weeks.
It was a painful six weeks.
We're in the customer's houseand there's dust everywhere.
And even though you told themdust is going to be everywhere,
they complained that dust iseverywhere.
We've flooded a couple houses.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
About six weeks on site, not counting the pre sure.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, it's weeks, so we were turning that $20,000
over every day.
Yeah, and let's just assumeprofit margins are the same.
They're close.
Why were we doing theremodeling?
Doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make any sense.
So we went just said one daywe're gonna stop doing it.
And people would keep callingus hey, I need this remodel done
.
No, we had learned that hardwork.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
No in the beginning we were felt get bad previous
customers or referral.
Like gosh, are we just?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
yes, then you're afraid you're losing money,
you're afraid you're giving upmoney.
So I got the money.
Y'all hire you whatever youwant and you're.
And it was so hard to turn thatmoney down at first, but it was
the most empowering, freeingthing we ever did was say no,
because now, with roofing, wehave one material vendor, we
have a dumpster vendor and wehave a crew.
That's it.
(29:20):
When you're a GC, you have 20vendors.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
No doubt.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You're in the customer's house, Everything's
going awry.
You know it can be done well.
We just weren't doing it well.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
You, everything's going awry.
You know it can be done.
Well, we just weren't doing it.
Well, you know, there's twothings specifically said that I
think really stand out.
One is learn the word no.
Somebody told me one time thisis really that a big impact on
me.
They said, because I'm a yesguy too, I like this.
But yeah, we'll figure it out,we'll do it, no problem.
Well, you've never learned howto do it, we'll figure it out.
And they said every time yousay yes to one thing, you're
saying no to a thousand others.
(29:51):
And I was like oh.
I hate saying no, and saying yesactually means saying no,
because you can't actually doeverything.
There's only so many hours aday on the seven days in a week
and so you do have to decidelike what am I uniquely suited
for and, from a businessperspective, what keeps the
money in the bank?
What has good cash flow?
(30:12):
What has good profitability?
What are we good at?
What creates good systemization?
All that, in other words, likehammer on the job, is actually
sometimes a limiting factor Ifyou want to be by.
(30:37):
That is it's like you know I Iwear a lot of different hats and
one of them I get to work atthe church of 1122 and help with
all kinds of things marketing,communication, strategy, media,
all kinds of stuff and my bossthere, who's the first boss I've
ever had, ironically my wholelife was talking about something
I was like well, I can just doit if I need to.
And he's like, no, don't letpeople know you can do that.
And he meant it from aperspective of I need you to
lead the thing, I don't need youto do the thing, and those are
(30:57):
very different things and that'svery hard for me because I do
actually a jack of all trades,master of none.
I'm not the person that shouldbe designing the thing, even if
I can do that better than mostregular people.
I'm not the person that shouldbe toting the thing, even if I
(31:18):
can do it better than mostregular people, because I'm not
as good as the person who's theexpert at it and really does it
well, and I've had to learn bothof those things really big,
with people that are listening.
Those are good lessons to takeaway.
Learn to say no to the rightthings.
Learn to say yes to the rightthings.
Know when you say yes, you sayno to a thousand others, and
sometimes the ability to do thething is actually a limiting
factor.
It's also helpful, I mean,because you know what it should
(31:41):
be and what it isn't.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, I think one of the most dangerous things you
can say is I'll just do that.
Yeah, just do that.
And anytime I catch myself inthe field doing something, I
regret it For almost exclusive ahundred percent, a hundred
percent regret.
Like why am I here?
This is a waste of my time.
I could have paid someone to dothis and saved a ton of time.
So my, my goal is to alwayssolve a problem without me being
(32:09):
the solution to that problem,like find other ways to do
whatever that task is that needsto be done, that sure I could
go solve it, but it's going totake me three or four hours, I'm
going to be hot and sweaty, I'mgoing to be pissed off.
Who can I get to go do this?
And every time I end up goingto do it, I'm upset with myself,
and when I get someone else todo it, I am so relieved that I
did 100%.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
I read this book not that long ago by a guy named Dan
Sullivan, called who, not how,and it makes me think about what
you're talking about there,which is a lot of times we think
how am I going to get thisthing done?
But the right question to ask,especially as a leader, is who
can help me get this thing done?
And I've definitely been, Istill do.
I mean, 26 years later I still.
I'm like well, let me just doit.
(32:49):
But I also think from a teammember's perspective, if you
hear your leader or your bosssay I'll just do it, that's like
the worst thing they could sayto you.
Like if I say to somebody, it'slike the insult just give it to
me, I'll do it.
What I mean is you're clearlynot getting it done, so and I'm
not, I'm not bothered by it,like I can carry more, give it
to me.
And that's not good.
It's also moderately arrogantas the leader to just make that
(33:12):
assumption and it's better tojust let people do their jobs.
I read this other book I forgotwhat it was called but one thing
that stood out to me they werereally talking about kids, but I
think it relates to teammembers too, and they said one
of the worst things you can dofor a child member is to take
their task.
In other words, if it'ssomething that they should do,
you should let them do it, and Ithink that's true for team
(33:33):
members as much as it is kids.
Which is let them do it.
It might be a little slower, itmight not be exactly what you'd
hoped for, but the only waythey can learn, which is the
only way they can get better,which is the only way the
company can get better, yeah,more reps.
(34:03):
For sure, keep doing.
My, told a guy on the way here,one of our sales guys.
Yes, quote it, it's more reps.
The more reps you do, theeasier this is going to get for
in the business that maybe isn'tthere yet, that you're working
towards.
Like, what is the thing nowthat you're working towards,
that you kind of hope for forthe future?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
I think for me and I think for KO2, our conversations
, that company that can runitself without my hour-by-hour
direct input, all day, 40 hoursa week.
I think I heard it for you Iwant to get to a point where I
want to be 20% in the businessand then take 80% and be working
(34:37):
on other special projects likeworking for the church or going
on mission trips or doing someother impactful things, like
getting more involved with theBuilders Care Association that
I'm on the board of and he's thepresident of the NRFSA up here
in the Northeast border area,being more involved in some of
those things that I think couldjust be more or help be
(35:01):
fulfilling.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah, and I've been re-homing that we need to grow
the business and not be ascritical to the day-to-day grind
, empowering other people to dothe things that we do on a
day-to-day basis.
I think that's the next stepfor great, I think.
I think right now we areprobably the limiting factors,
for sure, and we have to getcomfortable getting out of that,
and it's probably it'llprobably mean hiring someone in,
(35:22):
so then that that year it's afinancial thing.
Sure, you know that that we gotto work through, so I so we't
like we want to grow every year.
We don't.
We're not really good atsitting down and defining what
that number is, but year overyear we've grown, that's how I
feel about it.
So there's a big thing right nowwith private equity coming into
(35:44):
buying home services companies,including roofing companies.
It's slowed down a little bitand we're not big enough to be
attractive to a company likethat and it's really not our
goal.
But I do look through it.
Look through the lens of beingsellable, and here's why To be
sellable, somebody has to beable to buy the business and the
(36:06):
business basically run right.
So you need systems and youneed management and stuff.
If Peter and I are the business, it's not.
So you need systems and youneed management and stuff.
If Peter and I are the business, it's not sellable.
That's right, and right now,peter and I are the business.
Yes, so nobody could come inand buy HW and run it.
They'd have to jump in and doexactly what we do.
You know which a lot of timewe're in the day-to-day grind.
So what I'm wanting to do isnot because we want to sell, but
(36:32):
just because if we are sellable, then we've solved a lot of
these other problems.
Right, and then the options Tand I have options and we have a
little bit more freedom.
So that's where we're headed.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Yeah, I think it's probably about the same time.
As far as years in business, Istarted thinking to myself.
I was actually at an event andsomebody asked me no-transcript,
(37:12):
like what needs to be true inorder for it to last 60 years,
you know, or indefinitely.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
So the school bus test.
I can't remember which authorcame up with that.
It was Simon Sennett, I mean,it said it to me.
Yeah, I've heard the same thing.
So like I get nervous if he andI are in the truck together or
we're going to an event togetheror something like that, we're
on an airplane going to SanDiego for an OS morning.
It's like man, if we both godown.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
So really we've been waiting.
Sure, that's all Right, ourwives are taking, because the
T-Roc figured it out.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
But the T calls parts .
So now, what is a major burdenon me?
In a positive and a negativeway, it's like we have this
whole team around us now.
We're up to 20 employees,roughly Roughly 20.
19, something like that.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
They could take the four our wives out, take four
out.
So we're even roughly 17.
Sure Lives that depend.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
And those families and they're my families now
depend on us every day andthat's a tremendous burden.
If something were have happenedto us, the, the company you
know, will fulfill.
Yeah, I'm sure they couldclobble along and or or another
roofer would come in and takeour contracts or whatever, I
don't know.
But all the employees gonereally has a place to work
(38:23):
exactly, and that's the heartbehind solving the problem.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
So I read a book.
I don't mention a lot of books,but when I say I read a book, I
never read a book.
I listened.
I listened to it, but Ilistened to a book called
Clothwork by a guy named MikeMichalowicz and it was actually
before I took this RV trip backin 2020 that you were talking
about earlier and he talks aboutthe idea of building the
business in a way where you cantake 30 days off and the reason
he says 30 days it makes a tonof sense.
(38:46):
And he meant 30 days with nowork, like I'm not answering a
phone call, not returning a text, I'm returning an email.
I am invisible for 30 days.
And the reason he said 30 daysit makes a ton of sense is that
a business goes through a fulllife cycle in 30 days.
You know in the same that youwould a full year In 30 days.
You close new deals, startprojects, you finish projects,
you collect money, you pay money.
(39:06):
Everything generally has tohappen in a 30-day cycle for the
most part.
So if you can get through 30days, arguably the business can
actually get through whatever.
I also changed my language and Iwent from saying I want the
business to survive without meand I started saying I want the
business to thrive without me.
I want to show up and people belike what do you do here?
You know, and I'm not sayingwe're completely there, but
(39:30):
we're really really close tothat now, because I probably
only spend maybe 20 or 30% of mytime in the business at this
point and arguably other peoplecould replace that if they
really needed to, even onpodcasts, like Logan, our new
director of growth.
He's awesome at podcasts.
He could do them without me.
I just like to do them.
But that about changed mymindset on it and at first I
(39:52):
felt a little I don't know likeselfish, that I was going to
take 30 days off.
But he reminds you in the bookthat it's not just about you
having a vacation, because infact, most entrepreneurs really
struggle to take 30 days off.
It's actually very hard.
Well, not that hard.
I'm like let me get back towork Like I like to work.
You know I might have a problem,but it's because it's for the
(40:13):
good of the team, because now ifI'm extremely hit by the bus,
there will be some collateraldamage of that, but the business
could carry on.
It is fully capable at thispoint of operating, I think, for
a very long time without mehere at all.
And part of that's actuallyreally hard, like as you work
towards it, because part of ityou're like, sometimes you like
(40:36):
show up at a thing and you'relike what am I even doing here,
like you don't even need meanymore.
And so you actually have tolike kind of redefine your own
purpose and your own value,because as entrepreneurs and as
business owners, so much of ourvalue is tied up in you know,
what we do every day, like asyour kids grow up, you're like
wait, you don't need me to dothat for you.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
I don't you Like in an office space.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
When those consultants come in, they'll say
exactly what did you say you doaround here?
That's the current situation inthe US government, but that's
what we want Right?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Your teacher will send you an email saying give us
five things you did last week.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
That's right, or it's like when we were on the office
, where gosh, who was it?
It was like Jim and Michael, Ithink, had split the role of
manager they're like co-managersand then they got bought out by
other companies.
She's like so, let me get thisstraight, two of you do one
person's job.
I was like what the hell?
And they're like yeah,basically, well, as I'm landing
(41:33):
the plane for the show, one ofthe things I love to hit on a
little bit is kind of wherewe're headed anyway, which is
work-life balance.
What does that even mean, andI'd love to hear from both of
you.
What does that even mean to you, number one, and how has that
changed through differentseasons?
You both got wads, you both gotkids, and you're probably both
a little bit of workaholics,like I am, and so how has that
(41:55):
been defined for you over time,and what does it look like
currently for you as life?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
I follow the.
I think it's Dave Ramsey'sphilosophy on that and maybe you
told me or I heard it at aRamsey conference is it's?
There is no work like that.
It's true, there's no suchthing.
And when people say that, well,you really don't know what your
job is.
It's a blender, that's right.
Or it's seasons, so I ebb andflow out of seasons where I can.
(42:27):
I can knock off at five, orsometimes I'm up there till
eight o'clock at night and beck,you gotta cook dinner.
I ain't gonna make it, you'lleat without me.
I'll see you later, you know.
But I try not to make that thenorm, that that can't be the
norm.
You're gonna have otherproblems, right.
So you can.
You can ebb and flow there.
To me there's not a balance,it's, it's a blender, it's all
mixed in together and I justlike, I'm trying to be focused
(42:47):
on being present where I'm at inthat moment.
Right, if I'm, I want to leavehere after this, I'm going to go
coach eight you girls softballand I'm going to be focused on
that moment.
You know, I think that's thekey is being present in the
moment.
Now, if you are working 60, 70hours a week, you're working on
Saturday, you're working onSunday.
That, like that can't besustainable.
(43:09):
But even like like Ramsey'sreference is really good when
that, when it's conferenceseason, it's bananas.
You know he wasn't going to thekids events and that was just
understood.
But when it wasn't conferenceseason, like he was fully
involved, you know, but when itwasn't conference season, like
he was fully involved, you know.
So that's where that's the wayI try to approach things is be
involved when you're there,don't I don't always do it well
(43:30):
me either.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
It's good, let's say for us, my wife and I.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
She worked up until this last year and it was tough
then because she had a job thatwas demanding I I didn't have
one and that would cause someconflict if, but you know, we're
like we've got to do it, it'sjust got to get done.
Sometimes it is what it is andso we've gotten used to that.
But a lot like what Caleb'ssaying is anymore I just try to
I do what I have to do and theneverything else.
(43:56):
If I don't need to do it today,then I won't and I will spend
time with family or I try to bepresent.
But, like he said, I don't havea timeframe that I work.
I will check my emails in themorning, have coffee at the wife
and I'll answer what needsanswered.
But it's a slow roll for mebecause I work from the house
now, unless I have a meeting togo to or somewhere I have to be,
and then it's just understood.
(44:17):
But now she doesn't work.
So it buys me some flexibility,like today's a bad day.
Today I'm working all night.
Maybe I didn't get going tillnine in the morning, so I try to
give back on different sides ofthe day when it's, when the
time is there, so that when thetime isn't, I have to do what I
got to do, cause now that I'mdoing the income, it's like I
got to execute, you know, but Istill got to make sure she has
(44:40):
time, the family has time, so wetry to make sure it's on the
calendar when the kids' hockeygames are their flag football
and so that I'm like, okay, Ican't overbook here, and you
know.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
What entrepreneurship owning a business does give you
if you've played your cardsright.
So, peter Mitchell, we workfully remote now we don't have
an office, so I'd go with mywife to pick the girls up.
We got these little electrickites with two seaters on them.
We go pick the girls up fromthe bus stop a lot of days.
If you're doing a regularnine-to-five job, you don't get
(45:12):
to do that.
We're taking this trip out westfor 30 days.
Now part of my ability to dothat is I got a partner that can
manage things while I'm gone,sure, manage things while I'm
gone, sure, but if you have aregular nine to five, you can't
do that.
So there are benefits to beingan entrepreneur and that.
That, that kind of work-likebalance, if you will, whatever,
if you want to call it that,that you do get to go do some
things.
I'm coaching my daughter'ssoftball team.
(45:34):
My other daughter is in golf.
So on days that she's on thecourse it's it's before the
working day is over I'm outthere walking the course with
her, you know.
So now I do get some phonecalls about business.
You know, guys, on the job,something's gone wrong.
Hey, what do you want us to do.
I'll take that call while I'mout there, while she's here, or
something you know.
But it it does afford you somethings like that where you can
(45:57):
be present with your kids, where, like I'm there in the morning,
you know when they're gettingready not not a lot of dads get
to do that.
They're out by 7 am orsomething you know.
So I work out early, I'm in genat 6, home by 7 15 and drinking
coffee and making sure they'regetting ready and you know
dealing with all that.
So they're minor.
You know, coming up on 11 and 8, you remember those years where
(46:19):
it's like a madhouse in themorning, like somebody's crying,
somebody's tears all over theplace.
They can't find their shoes,nothing matches.
You have holes in your jeans.
It's like what are you doingwith holes in your jeans, you
know?
But it's fun to be able toexperience that and be present
for your kids and we're bothgetting to experience that and I
think it's one of theadvantages of entrepreneurship
(46:40):
If you do it right and you bepresent when you need to be
present.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
And at the end of the day, you have earned that
because you were willing toendure the hard days in the
beginning.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, in the beginning it wasn't like that,
right?
No, you know we're on the otherside of it, that's right, you
know in some ways.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
But that's why I think, that's why I love doing
this show and having theseconversations, because I think a
lot of times, especially on theInternet, all people show is
the glamour of the other side.
Yeah, after you've already,like, endured the valleys and
not that there's not morevalleys ahead, because there's
always.
If you're on the mountaintop,there's always a valley
somewhere.
But at the same time, I thinkpeople they over glamorize the
(47:17):
reality of it and it's like gosh, almost nothing good doesn't
come with some hard work.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, you know you can't be watching what you see
on Instagram and all that stuff.
That is not real business.
It's like getting in somerelationships with some business
owners that are in your fieldlocally and talk to them and
you're going to realize realquick they are all having the
exact same problems you have andyou talk to them to okay, how
(47:43):
do you deal with that?
Because I'm in that right now.
You know what do you do to helpthat customer or something like
that, and it gives you ideas.
It also gives you some insightinto what your competition is
doing.
So we're I got a few guys thatare roofers that I'm also
friends with and they've beenreally open with me because
they've been doing it for longerabout how they handle things
and stuff.
So talking to those guys andhaving someone that you can talk
(48:03):
to like that is super helpfulas well.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, getting people, getting community like that is
just huge yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
I was going to say part of what I do, like I've had
some guys ask me, so you go.
You know you might leave in theafternoon, go shoot for a
little bit or something, butyeah, but also be here till nine
o'clock at night if somethingneeds done, Like.
But, yeah, but also be here tillnine o'clock at night.
If something needs done, likeyou will be paid on a payroll,
payroll will get done.
You've never, never missed acheck, right, and some nights if
you were to actually clock inand see when I time taped, time
(48:32):
stamped some emails through.
Oh, he was.
So I give it back when it hasto come back and there's just
when shit needs done.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
You gotta get it done .
I had a guy one time say to mehe said it was on my team many
years ago he's like my wifedoesn't even know what you do,
and I was like for one, that's areal chicken thing to say.
Why don't you just say that youdon't know what I do?
And number two what I do ismake sure you have a paycheck in
the bank account every Friday.
That's what I do.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
We've had two employees that are now former
employees say that they boughtour trucks and, like they, you
know.
So, peter and I, we startedthis business for their personal
trucks.
Right, beat the crap out of theshirt.
300,000 miles, wore them out.
They weren't company trucks.
We didn't get money back.
That's right, that's right.
So we are.
(49:18):
Finally, we're both with over300,000 miles on our trucks.
We go buy new trucks, right,well, the company's doing better
, we can afford it.
Sure, we're going to Bose ourFord, actually, yeah, and you
buy new trucks.
And then you hear an employeesay, oh, all my sales bought
that truck for you.
Well, that didn't last long.
Another employee said the samething and nobody's there for the
(49:44):
sleepless nights, themedication for anxieties, the,
the ambience, so that you cansleep through the night.
Like, well, for me here, for me, when it right, yeah, deal with
attorneys and lawsuits.
And like when it rains, I mean,I just my anxiety goes to the
roof when it rains, because Iknow new customers are gonna
call, but I know we've got someroofs out there with some
mistakes.
Sure, let's say we put on 200roofs a year.
We don't put on 200 perfectroofs a year and a nail, one
(50:09):
nail of the 8,000 that we put ona roof is in the wrong spot and
that's a leak.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Right, so I know we're going to get a call when
we get these severe rainstorms,so my anxiety goes to the roof.
Those guys don't have to dealwith that right now.
So it's infuriating when peopledon't understand.
They think you know.
They call it like an overnightsuccess.
Right, Well, you weren't therefor the prior 10 or 15 years.
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (50:34):
overnight.
That's the other thing DaveRandy says.
You bust your tail for 20 yearsand then you're an overnight
success, right?
A couple of things you saidthat I've loved to call out as
we just kind of land the plane,one is just being present in the
moment, being where your feetare.
There've been plenty of timeswhere my wife has said to me uh,
you're here, but you're notreally here.
And I've been there.
That's a that's a toughcritique, you know, and it's
(50:56):
true, and it's true, it's true,it's true, and it's and it's's.
But she also understands theburden of it.
All you know and has and hasstuck with me for, as of today,
22 years, and so I've really I'mtrying to still get better at
this.
I think it will just be aperpetual effort.
I don't think it will ever bean achieved thing of just be
where your feet are.
The other you talked about, orwhat y'all really was, this idea
(51:17):
of like seasons seasons ofbusiness, seasons of life,
seasons of family, seasons ofbusiness, seasons of life,
seasons of family.
I always say that the greatestcause of all relational strife,
whether it's marriages orfriendships or partnerships or
clients, is misplacedexpectations.
If I expect this and you expectthat and those things are too
far apart.
We have a problem, andcommunication is the bridge that
connects those expectations.
You all both basically saidthis, which is you know, there
(51:40):
are nights where you go.
I just got to stay late.
I'm going to be here forhowever long, and I'm going to
do my best to get home when Ican and thankfully, like I'm
married to somebody who'swilling to go, all right, I got
it, like you know do what youneed to do, but it can't be
every night.
If it's every night.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah, if you're the sole breadwinner at home, I
think you are right.
Yeah, so I am.
Now my wife went part-time as apharmacist so I'm, you know,
same with his wife Sure Retired,if you want to call that.
So we're the sole breadwinners.
And so now my wife understands,because she hears the
conversation.
I've worked from home now, soshe hears.
She's like my goodness, how areyou doing so?
Like you know, when you're thesole breadwinner, sometimes you
(52:24):
do have to step out of a familything.
I got to deal with this rightnow because there's a lot of
money on the line.
If I don't, this could gohorribly awry.
If I don't deal with this rightnow Again, time and a place,
and hopefully if you'recommunicating with your wife
well, she understands that andif you're not abusing it,
because you can't abuse it andeverything you have to step out,
(52:44):
for you know that's not goodeither.
But you know it's a blender.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
There's not a lot of that.
It needs a little more spinach.
It needs a little more icecream.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
I've been on vacations where Caleb's called
me, said we got to pull the plugon a guy and I had to.
I gotta pull off what we'redoing and log in and pull the
thought or doubt, you know, lockthem out of all the things.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Well, I said we were going to go 20 or 30 minutes and
we're well over that time.
That's usually the sign of agood podcast and a good
conversation.
I talk to you guys all day.
It's been awesome to watch yougrow and scale and learn and
improve over time and strugglethrough hard days and get better
and better and better, and soI'm proud to know you and be a
friend and thankful to have youas a client and get to work
together.
(53:23):
We don't get directly to workas much anymore, but it's been
really cool.
So thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, we're appreciating the partnership
with you guys.
Thanks for being here,no-transcript.
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